▷S4E13 Wayne Young Wants You To Drink Refosco

0:00 — Wine is everywhere in Friuli

WY: And wine is such an important part of the landscape here. Once you start going towards Cormons or you start going towards Cividale, you're going to be driving through wine country. So you're going to be amongst vines. Even on some of the larger roads. You're going to just have vines along the side of the road on the statale. So you're going to see them there. So it's part of the landscape. And that's one of the reasons why I really love it here. And wine is always on your mind when you're talking and when you're traveling through Friuli-Venezia Giulia.

0:37 — Welcome to Modo di Bere

RTB: Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. You might have noticed that season four of this podcast has been a bit of a theme of wine from Friuli-Venezia Giulia in northern Italy. We're continuing the theme today with Wayne Young, an American wine professional who worked a harvest in Friuli-Venezia Giulia, fell in love with the region, married his Italian girlfriend, and moved to Udine permanently in 2002. Wayne now has a podcast dedicated to the wines of Friuli-Venezia Giulia and it's called La Taverna. Wayne and I are doing something special today. I'm interviewing Wayne on my podcast and he's interviewing me on his podcast. We're releasing both episodes on the same day because we know our audiences care about Italian wine regions. And we want you to find out about a great new show. So before we start the interview, please take a moment now. Go to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. Search for La Taverna. Hit that follow button thing and download the latest episode. And I'm excited to welcome the fans of La Taverna who are listening today on Wayne's recommendation. So welcome, Wayne.

2:16 — A podcast swap with La Taverna

WY: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. It's a really nice experience to be here, and it's really nice to share a podcast with you.

RTB: Yes, I am really happy.

WY: My first. My first collab.

RTB: Yes, exactly.

WY: Cheers.

2:27 — Two Italian Wine Podcasts

RTB: Cheers to Italian wine shows. And to the wines of Friuli-Venezia Giulia.

WY: Exactly. Exactly, exactly.

2:35 — What's in Wayne's glass: Ronchi di Cialla

RTB: What are we drinking here, Wayne?

WY: What are — I don't know, what are you drinking? I am drinking one of my favorite wines in Friuli. And also, full disclosure, a client — we're talking about Ronchi di Cialla. Nice. Okay. And this is their Cialla Rosso, which is their blended red wine. It's half Schioppettino and half Refosco dal Peduncolo Rosso, which are my two favorite red grapes here. In Friuli-Venezia Giulia. So, yeah, I figured I would open something red and something indigenous for our talk today. So I couldn't think of anything better than Cialla Rosso to drink with you today.

RTB: I love that producer, too. I love Schioppettino. I love the story about how that producer, right, kind of brought it back into stability in the region after it had been undersung and endangered. It's just a delicious grape that makes these sort of soft in the mouth, very morbido, in my opinion, as they would say in Italian wine tasting, kind of dark purple wine. Not too tannic. Some interesting fruit notes. And then Refosco for me is like drinking a Christmas tree. In fact, that's kind of how we met. We were both on, like, social media somewhere, and people will ask, like, what's your favorite wine? And you kept saying Refosco dal Peduncolo Rosso. That's like, I have to meet this guy.

WY: That's my — it's my mission in life to make people drink more Refosco.

4:00 — What's in RT's glass: a Malvasia from Brda

RTB: Well, I'm drinking a white. Actually, there's probably some skin contact here, and I'm cheating. Except I'm not, because I went over to my wine section where I have some wine that I've brought home from my travels, and I thought to myself, oh, I know that I still have a few bottles from Friuli-Venezia Giulia. And you know what? They were all from Brda. But in my mind it was one thing. So maybe we can talk a little bit more about this kind of cross-border. But in fact, this is why this is such a good example is this is a Malvasia from Ferdinand in Brda. Okay. You can see that it has that. Well, maybe you can see it. It has the name spelt in Italian and Slovenian. And this producer Ferdinand makes a wine with a producer across the border, Gratisciuta, a sparkling wine that they bottle under the EU designation to show.

WY: Right.

RTB: That they don't think that border makes sense to be there, which is a whole story. So it's — and it's called Sine Finis Without Borders. So that was one of the first wines that I heard about that made me want to visit this region. And Malvasia is so aromatic and lovely and they grow it all over Italy — they also have it in different kinds of Malvasia. It's whole family thing. But there are aromatic, luscious wines, and more aromatic meaning floral and I love them.

WY: Not quite as aromatic as like a Sauvignon or something like that, but still.

RTB: Yeah, yeah, more in the floral than the grass category perhaps. I always get notes of like irises in the springtime. Is kind of my Malvasia note. It's pretty fun. But, Wayne, I want to know, do you have — I want to know more about your background and what you do there. But I want to also ask you if you have a local saying to share with us.

5:52 — Italian slang is all about one body part

WY: A local saying — there's a couple and everybody loves it when I speak Italian because I speak Italian with a really heavy American accent. Obviously, you know, kind of like Arnold Schwarzenegger. You never lose the accent, right? No matter how hard you try. And people find it charming. So I sort of take advantage of that. They find it even more entertaining when I speak Friulano. Oh, you speak Friulano.

RTB: How marvelous.

WY: Very little. I know a couple of phrases in Friulano. So I'm going to give you a couple of phrases in Friulano. The first one that you learn when you get here, if anybody teaches you Friulano, the first thing they're going to teach you is the way to say, "Come stai? How are you?" And in Friulano, it's "Cemût?" Exactly. But there's always a little addition on that. So basically, what Friulanos will say and what I've been taught is you say "Ce mût le bighe?"

RTB: "Ce mût le bighe?" What does that mean?

WY: Yes, it means how's your penis?

RTB: Oh. I'm always finding a new penis all over Italy. It never stops.

WY: Exactly.

RTB: Thank you.

WY: Italy. And the response is "Cjalde ma flape."

RTB: Okay. Translate.

WY: Warm but soft.

RTB: Oh, my God, that's so funny.

WY: And have you met any of the Petrussas? Paolo Petrussa, who is a friend of mine. He, every time we see each other, he comes right up to me and he says "Ce mût le bighe?" And I respond "Cjalde ma flape," and he laughs his head off. He thinks it's the funniest thing ever.

RTB: Oh my God, that's so funny. You're going to have to text that to me so I can make sure to spell it correctly in the subtitles. This is a really important saying. Oh my.

8:13 — Friulian modo di dire: "You have more ass than sense"

WY: God. Oh, it's a very important saying, it's the first thing you learn in Friulano. The other one that I wanted to give you in Friulano is the Friulano phrase that basically encapsulates my life here in Friuli-Venezia Giulia. And the phrase is "Tu "Tu âs plui cûl che sintimint. Tu âs plui cûl che sintimint," means you are luckier than you are smart. You have more ass than sense is the literal translation. You have more ass than sense.

RTB: I think it works out to a compliment, to be real.

WY: The only reason that you're successful is because you're lucky, not because you're actually talented. So.

RTB: That's probably true.

8:49 — Learn Friulano Online

WY: But here's what you got to do if you want to find these fantastic Friulano sayings, you got to go on YouTube and you have to look for this series of videos that were made. They're like a minute and a half each and they're called Tacons, T-A-C-O-N-S. And there's a guy there with a beard, and I can't remember his name right now, but I met him. He was a really nice guy. Unfortunately, he passed away. But he does these fantastic things where it says, in Italian, we say this. In Friulano, we say this, which means absolutely not the same thing, but it's very, very funny. And you'll get all the Friulano you need from those videos.

RTB: Oh, that's wonderful. I'm definitely going to link that in the show notes. Check it out. I also want to let people know, since we are talking about Friulano, that I have in this Friuli-Venezia Giulia heavy season, I have a whole episode which is season four, episode three of this podcast, which is with Dr. William Cisilino. Who is the director of ARLeF that promotes the Friulian language. And it's all about Friulian, that entire episode. So if you want to know more about what language we're discussing, you can go there, but we're going to talk about some wine. So you know what I would really love? Because we do also in the season, I've got another episode that this marvelous, very granular, deep dive, incredible scholarly resource, incredible for people like me who go crazy about lots and lots of different rare grapes, which is the interview with Paul Balke earlier in the season. I want to know more about your story, but before we get into it, I want to know if you can kind of bring to life for me just if someone was going to visit this region, like, what does it look like? What does it feel like? What does it smell like? What are, you know, what are these? What is it about some of these wines and the way they taste that caused you to change your life? Give us some sensory.

10:34 — Growing up without mountains in New Jersey

WY: It's a really weird thing because all of my life, when I was growing up in New Jersey. I grew up in New Jersey. So I did not grow up in a place where there were real mountains. I grew up on the East Coast, so we had hills, which we called mountains, but they weren't really mountains.

And I always dreamt of living in a place where I could see snowcapped mountains from my house. And I'm living that dream right now, because from my apartment I can see out of my kitchen window, you know, Montenero and Matajur and all of these other mountains that are sort of surrounding Friuli that in these days are covered with snow.

12:08 — Life in Udine

So that's a big thing that I'm super grateful for when I think about my life here in Friuli, is that that's what I wanted to have. And now I have it. But, you know, Friuli has it all. Friuli has, you know, plains, it has rolling hills and it has mountains, and it goes all the way from the sea, all the way up to some of the highest peaks in the Alps. So, yeah, I mean, you're going to find everything you could possibly want here. And wine is such an important part of the landscape here. Once you start going towards Cormons or you start going towards Cividale, you're going to be driving through wine country. So you're going to be amongst vines. Even on some of the larger roads. You're going to just have vines along the side of the road on the statale. So you're going to see them there. So it's part of the landscape. And that's one of the reasons why I really love it here. And wine is always on your mind when you're talking and when you're traveling through Friuli-Venezia Giulia. I live in the city of Udine, which is the biggest — really, the biggest city in Friuli-Venezia Giulia is Trieste. But that's not sort of considered Friuli. That's considered Venezia Giulia. Udine is a little city of about 90,000 people. It used to be very sleepy. It was once deemed the most boring city in all of Italy. But it's not that way anymore. It's a young city. There's a university here. So 15 minute walk from my house. I'm in the center of Udine, and it's full of wine bars and places to eat and places to drink and people having a good time. And, you know, those are the things that, for me, are important now because I used to live in the big city. I spent ten years in New York, but now I just enjoy the calm, the peace, the quality of life that you get in a smaller city. So I can't think of anything that you might miss in a place like Friuli-Venezia Giulia. Unless you really want the big city. You live in the big city, so you know, and I do miss the big city from time to time. But it's an easy trade-off with the quality of life that you have here. So there's always good conversation. There's always people having, you know, cicchetti, or pieces of bread with cheese and ham and all that sort of stuff. So it's basically — the thing that I love best about here is the quality of life. There's lots of local food that I enjoy eating. But you can also find some things here like sushi, which is very popular, or hamburgers, if you're really wanting — you have a hankering for Italian, for American food. So. Yeah. I mean, like I was saying, I don't think that if you were to come here, you would find yourself missing anything unless you're really trying to get into the big city.

14:28 — Staying plugged into Friuli's wine scene

RTB: That's really cool. And I wanted to know, too — a lot of times when I am visiting winemakers, it's a very rural experience and very small town experience. Everybody's kind of in each other's business, you know. And of course, that's very fun to visit. You know, I live in New York City, so, you know, I've kind of chosen my lane in terms of, like, village versus city life. But it's very fun to be around and experience. But I'm just curious for you, how do you stay in touch with — and what are you doing besides the podcast to find out about what's going on in wine? Do the consorzi have events? Are there wine bars where you kind of go to get the news? Like, do you drive out to Cormons? Are you going to different parts of the region and visiting vineyards? Like, how do you stay in touch and informed for your viewers to let them know what's going on in the region?

WY: Well, the first line is contact with producers themselves. I'm lucky because I have the podcast. I'm the only one who's doing a podcast about Friuli wine in Friuli exclusively. And so I'm constantly in contact with producers. If it's not about the podcast, it's about other events that I do.

I also do events at a restaurant here in Friuli that's called Enoteca in Manzano. So I help them plan the events and I do the events with them. So I'm the one who's coordinating and contacting producers for wines to fulfill these events. I do have really good friends at the Consorzio Colli Orientali, and that is where I have my studio. I don't do my podcasts here, even though I have my microphone set up here. This is more for my intros and my editing type of stuff, but I have like literally a mini studio in the tasting academy at Colli Orientali. So whenever they have things going on and Colli Orientali are super active as far as promotion and events and things like that, I tend to go and take part in those events as often as I can.

In fact, there's one on Saturday. So yeah, so I'll probably be going to do that. So I'm constantly bothering producers in Friuli. I'm constantly asking them for samples. Let's do an event. Let's do a tasting. Hey, I'm going to do a wine course. Let's do one of the lessons at your winery. So yeah, that's — and plus I consult for wineries as well. I work closely with Ronchi di Cialla. I've been working now for a short period of time with a guy named Davide Feresin. Since I've become sort of a liberal professionista, so running my own business, I have to sort of be out and about. And whenever there is an event or something. There was an event last week in San Giorgio di Nogaro, something about wine tourism. I was there just to hear what they had to say, but also show people that I'm around. So, yeah, it's a matter of being in a lot of different places. And there's a lot going on as far as wine's concerned. In Friuli, there's always a tasting or some sort of event happening.

RTB: [music]. So you do some media, but you also do some promotion and you do some like market consultation, some events. That sounds really fun.

WY: It's a lot of fun. I mean, there could always be more work, but yes, it is a lot of fun. And the thing that's the most fun about it is dealing with the producers, is hanging out with them and helping them out, but also interacting with them and becoming friends and hearing their sort of hopes and dreams and what they're trying to do and their focus and all that sort of stuff. So getting into the culture of a winery, into this sort of family situation, for me is always really important. And always very satisfying.

18:33 — Pinot Grigio and PIWI grapes

RTB: There's one thing that I can say about every Italian wine producer I've ever met is that nobody is resting on their laurels. Everyone is working so hard to make the absolute best wine that they can. There's so much innovation, there's so much hustle. People are flying all around the globe to get their small production wineries into Japan and New York City and everywhere, and I was just actually in New York City last night at the time that we're recording this, I went to an event with the consorzio for Pinot Grigio Doc delle Venezie.

So it's like, okay, multiple region doc devoted to Pinot Grigio, which, to be honest, wasn't so super on my radar. Even though I always tell people to try Pinot Grigio from Friuli specifically. But I was learning from Felix of that consorzio there that they're the first doc in Italy that is very seriously considering allowing PIWI grapes in the blend. And they just had a tasting two weeks ago of the wines from their experiment with these blends that are maybe 85% Pinot Grigio with some other grapes in them. So that was really interesting. And he also told me that in Friuli specifically, there is a little more golden color even in the non-ramato, non-skin-contact Pinot Grigio, and a little more texture, because they will like to hang the grape, the Pinot Grigio. They like to leave it for a full extra two weeks than other places that might be harvested in Veneto.

And I didn't know that either. So I'm learning new things about Pinot Grigio. But what are some of the — well, before we talk about, let's talk about a few grapes. And then I want to get a few other questions for you. But I want to talk about styles, I guess, colors of wine. So I feel — let me know if I'm right about this — but my sense is that, you know, of course there's a long, long history, including of skin contact, so-called orange wines that was kind of forgotten and then revived. But I feel like maybe the 80s, 90s, there were some producers like Marco Felluga that really worked to make sure that the world knew how nice the white wines of Collio Doc, for instance, are in this region. So I feel like the region was really known for the whites. And then kind of in the late, like 90s, 2000s, was this skin contact moment with Gravner and Radikon and all of these cool producers that I got to spend some time with reviving this skin contact tradition. What I don't hear people talking about as much is the reds. My God, are the reds nice? Has it always been that way? Or is this a climate change thing where it's getting a little warmer? Or are they just — I just found them to be stunners. I mean, every, you know, just a glass of Cabernet Franc, I'm like, wow, this is so good.

21:06 — Why Friuli became known for whites

WY: Well, the reds have always been good here. I think it's just one of those things that Friuli, really understanding that it would be really difficult to compete with Piedmont and Tuscany, said, well, we do have some really, really, really good red wines here, but let's try and go for the softer market maybe, and knowing that white wines really worked here and especially that Ponca soil, that Flysch di Cormons. So that really made some very special white wines. So it sort of became branded as the land of white wines. And that's how Friuli became famous. Friuli was for many, many years a very poor region. You know, it was destroyed by two world wars. The wine history here is both old because it goes back to pre-Roman times, but also young because everything had to be restarted after the wars, everything had to be replanted, everything had to be started up again. So when it went through that restart process, there was a lot of sort of shifting over to ideas that might have been a little bit more financially less risky and a bit more financially stable. So let's do things like Pinot Grigio and Merlot that are easier to grow, and let's pay a little bit less attention to things like Pignolo and Schioppettino. That could be a little bit more difficult. So harder.

RTB: To make.

WY: Harder. But then harder to make, harder to market, harder to grow. So all of these different things. But then what really sort of changed here was there became a sort of Friulian style. And that filtered in through Germany and Austria, which was this idea of stainless steel temperature controlled white winemaking, where the flavors were super clean, the wines were super fresh. No, you know, no oxidation, no time in wood, because that was sort of muddling up the flavors because people weren't really sure how to make barrique wines here for a while. Schiopetto, Mario Schiopetto was probably one of the guys who spearheaded that, along with Livio Felluga and Marco Felluga. But there are other producers as well. There's probably, you know, a half a dozen producers that sort of carried that. Puiatti was probably another one. So that became the Friulian style and that sort of put Friuli on the map. So Friuli was known for these incredibly clean, fresh, varietally correct, very well-defined, fruit-driven white wines.

RTB: That's —

WY: How they became famous.

24:12 — The orange wine revolution

RTB: That makes it so interesting when you think about what it must have been like when this handful of producers started making orange wines. They talk about like, oh, everyone thought we were crazy, but when you hear that, that's what was going on and that was working so well, you can kind of see how revolutionary it must have been when those guys started doing that.

WY: Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, the idea was to sort of go back to a pre-industrial feeling for the wines. Whereas if you think of a wine cellar full of big stainless steel tanks, you kind of get this image of sort of an industrial kind of environment. So they wanted something that was more like what they remembered, or their grandfather remembered, or their father remembered, or whatever. That was the way that you made wine in Friuli. And they started experimenting with, you know, leaving the Pinot Grigio on the skins for a little while, just getting it outside the cappello, where the skins come up and you get a little color out of it. Or Gravner traveled to Georgia and started tasting Georgian wine, you know, long macerated stuff. And he was like, that's the way you make wine, and brought that back here and started a revolution. So, yeah, it was extremely revolutionary the way it sort of came, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure.

RTB: You know, other places too. I remember Radikon — I was able to interview the Radikon family and they told me that their dad would make people taste it out of black glasses to just say, for God's sake, forget about the color that's freaking you out and just taste what I've made.

WY: Yeah. Radikon was a trailblazer, even before getting into that whole long maceration type of style. For sure.

RTB: If you're a wine geek, you're going to be into those bottles. And of course, now, right when you get — the orange wines are everywhere, you know, and everybody got excited about it, they're making them in Australia and everywhere else, you know, and it's a whole new category. Let's talk about some of those red wines that you love. So tell me why you love Refosco so much. Why are you making such a thing out of it?

26:07 — Friulian Reds: Pignolo, Schioppettino, Refosco

WY: It's a good question. I like that question. So of all of the indigenous grape varieties that we have here, the three biggies — there's also a couple of smalls, but the three big ones are Pignolo, Schioppettino, and Refosco. And Refosco is a family of different grape varieties, but the one that's the most important is the Refosco dal Peduncolo. Rosso. There's also Refosco di Faedis and Refoscone, but anyway, the one that I'm most interested in is Refosco dal Peduncolo Rosso. And why is that? Because Schioppettino and Pignolo are great wines. They're fantastic wines, but they do best in very particular places. So, for example, Schioppettino, you know, in a warm place like Buttrio will tend to lose its spicy character. Okay. Pignolo in a cool place like — but a Prepotto will never ripen, and the tannins will never round out. So you need to plant Pignolo in places that are very, very warm with lots of sun, and you need to plant your Schioppettino in places that are a little bit cooler. Refosco you can plant anywhere. With Refosco you can plant in the plains. There are fantastic Refoscos because they come from Aquileia, which you could arguably say is the home of the grape. But there are also — so we're talking about the plains, a very different type of soil, very alluvial, lots of rocks and clay, but different from the hills. But then you get into Colli Orientali and we're on the Ponca, and Refosco is also fantastic. There are great Refoscos that come from, you know, Isonzo, which is another alluvial area out near Pordenone, another area. So there's almost no place in Friuli where you can't make a really good Refosco. And for me, that's sort of the key. I love the fact that Pignolo and Schioppettino are very specific, but the fact that you can make great Refosco could help a lot. Also, almost anywhere in the region — that makes it more interesting for me, because it can be sort of the standard bearer for Friulian red wine.

28:28 — Could Refosco travel the world?

RTB: That is so interesting since it's so versatile. Do you see Refosco going — being a great grape for experimentation, planting around the world? If that happened, would you like to see that happen?

WY: I would love to see that happen. It has happened. I know that Randall Graham experimented with Refosco dal Peduncolo also in California, for sure. There's Refosco going in Australia, I know that it exists. So yeah, I think it would be very, very interesting. But you need a lot of experience with Refosco to sort of understand its ins and outs, so to speak. So I would definitely say, yeah, Refosco could be really, really interesting. And it could only be good for Friuli and Refosco, because if you have a bunch of producers in California or in New York State or in Oregon or Australia or South Africa making Refosco, it's going to come back here eventually. Somebody's going to say, well, where — oh, it's a native of Friuli. Where is Friuli? — and people are going to sort of research and follow that trail back to here. And that's happening with Schioppettino and Pignolo as well.

RTB: All right. Experimental world, vineyards of the world, take note.

WY: There you go.

RTB: And in Bordeaux, right? Of all the people experimenting with —

WY: The world is your oyster, guys. Just get out there and plant some Refosco, some Schioppettino, some Pignolo. Oh, for sure, I think Pignolo would do great in a place like Napa Valley. Maybe better than Cabernet Sauvignon, because it is very, very structured and it needs a lot of sun and it needs a lot of heat for it to ripen. And I would be really interested to see what something as difficult as Pignolo would produce in a warm place like Napa.

RTB: What are —

WY: For California.

30:10 — Tasting notes for Pignolo

RTB: What are the tasting notes for you that define a typical Pignolo?

WY: Well, you know, I always taste in terms of structure. And the thing about Pignolo is it always has this incredibly rich, tannic structure, almost difficult to get through at times. Very dark fruit, very, very deep, lots and lots of tannins, but not a lot of alcohol. You can have really, really alcoholic Pignolo, but there's so much acidic support in Pignolo that it doesn't seem syrupy. And I think that's really, really important. All of the wines here, whether they're white or red, they always have sort of this kind of energetic backbone to them, and even though it's very, very tannic and can be very, very ripe, and even — there are some ones that are, the fruit is dried to give it a little bit more plushness — the acidic character always comes through. So you're getting this black fruit, but with the support of the acidity.

RTB: I've heard people compare it to Nebbiolo. Do you think that's because of the tannin, or because of a complexity, because of a development with age? All of the above.

32:09 — RIYL Pinot Noir: Schioppettino

WY: All of the above. I've done comparison tastings with Nebbiolo and with Pignolo. Nebbiolo is definitely lighter in color. You can tell them apart very easily. You know, if you put a Nebbiolo and a Pignolo together, Pignolo tends to be much, much darker. Yeah, they are both quite tannic. Maybe Nebbiolo has a little bit more acidity, a little bit more elegance. I mean, nothing to say bad about Pignolo, but you get a little bit more of that sort of earthy, tarry edge with Nebbiolo that you don't really get with Pignolo as much. So yeah, they compare them because I think they're both incredibly well structured, incredibly age-worthy red wines. But I've yet to find sort of that comparison between the two. What I think is closer in character is Schioppettino and Pinot Noir.

RTB: Oh, interesting. Tell us about that, R-I-Y-L? Yeah.

WY: Yeah, because Schioppettino is not a dark-skinned grape. It's not a thick-skinned grape. There aren't a lot of tannins. It's particular, it's a little bit fussy about where you put it. It's quite transparent, it does really show where it comes from. And all of those characteristics you can find also in Pinot Noir. I know a guy in Porto who makes both Pinot Noir and Schioppettino, and he loves to tell the story that when he's pulling the macerated grapes out of the tank to go into the press, he always has a moment of doubt whether or not he's opened the right tank. He's like, oh, wait a second, am I doing the Pinot Noir or am I doing this — Schioppettino, just from the smell of the wine and the grapes that are coming out of the tank. So I think that there is more of a kindred sort of feeling between the wines. The structure is very elegant, it's not a big, brawny, muscular wine, neither one of them are like that. If I had to sort of say there's a real sort of brotherhood between a local grape variety and an international variety — It would be Schioppettino and Pinot Noir.

35:47 — Schioppettino: An Odd Duck

RTB: You know, I've got another thought for that. Just because I really am intrigued by and love Schioppettino. I almost think of it as a lighter, less tannic Merlot. It's just got that friendly dark fruit character to me. It's like if you took a Merlot and made like a baby version. You know, not that Merlot is among the most tannic grapes, but to me, it's got such a unique character among the lighter bodied, kind of purpley grapes of northern Italy. You get a lot with a strongly floral character, especially across Piedmont, which — I love those. You've got Schiava, for instance, and a lot of.

WY: Love.

RTB: Those grapes with a very distinct note of white pepper. So there's a lot of kind of vibrancy and personality of a certain kind of piquancy, or like in-your-face floral expression among a lot of those grapes. And then you've got Schioppettino, and this isn't going to sound very elegant, but what I was trying to say with my note about the unique fruit, there's something about it that reminds me of like canned peaches. But I love canned peaches, you know? And, you know, maybe you've never eaten a canned peach if you're Italian, but there's just —

WY: Oh, totally.

RTB: — this to it. And the fruit to me is kind of unique. There's this round feel. I'm speaking specifically of the Ronchi di Cialla wines, and I just — it's just not quite like any other wine that I've ever had. It's not quite like any other Italian wine that I've ever had. There's something kind of scary about it. And, you know, a lot of Italian reds are just dominated by acid and tannin. So much so that I'm almost — I'm like an extreme sports person, and then when you ask me to drink wines from the rest of the world, I feel like I'm playing golf. And I'm like, all right, where's the tannin? Yeah, like, where's the acid? It manages to be low. And I think both of those things — I would say maybe lower acid, certainly than a Pignolo or a Nebbiolo, but yeah, I don't know. And maybe other people taste different things, and I'm sure you've tasted many more than I have, but I've always found it to be kind of an odd duck, Schio—

WY: —patino. Yeah, it is in a way that —

RTB: It's an odd duck that I love.

WY: Right? Yes. Yeah, it is genetically — it is very, very different from every other variety in Friuli. There are no known parentages or lineages genetically with Schioppettino, with any other grape variety. There might be one, but I can't remember which one it is. So it is quite different. It is very, very old, supposedly due to the vigor of the plant and the way the plant loves to climb and the way it grows very vigorously. There's a part of it that's thought to be closely related to very ancient, very sort of wild vines that haven't changed much over the past 5,000 years or so. So it is an odd duck, it is a different wine. Bunches are really big, grapes are really big, skins are really thin. It's quite susceptible to peronospora. So you really have to know how to grow it. But I think it's one of those things that when it's done right, and there are a number of producers here who do it right, it can be sublime. So I really appreciate that.

RTB: I'll try not —

WY: — to tell the story.

RTB: That dedication. Peaches. Yeah, I've kept that one to myself.

WY: I don't know if they're good, doc.

RTB: Thank you guys. You're welcome, everyone. That's my confession. Canned peaches.

WY: Well, you know what, they'll say, okay, well, yeah, I mean, maybe I can understand why you might think that, but — yeah, it's that impression of freshness that you get from Schioppettino that you don't get from a lot of other wines. The one reason that I would sort of call it a little bit different from Merlot, but again, it sort of falls in line with what you're saying about it being a baby Merlot, is that Merlot tends to be quite full and rich and tends to have a little bit more alcohol, whereas Schioppettino tends to have much less alcohol, isn't quite so full and quite so rich. So yeah, I could understand why you could say it's like a mini version.

RTB: Because of the fruit, really — that dark, the friendliness of the fruit. Yeah, the dark fruit. And a lot of the reds are dominated by red fruit — red, red, red, red, red. And then you have this kind of plummy, blackberry core. I'm so glad to know that it's also genetically unique, I feel like I was onto something. But let's talk about Tocai. Well, let's talk about Tocai.

WY: Yeah.

38:20 — Talking whites: Tocai Friulano

RTB: Well, let's talk about some of the whites. Describe to me some of your favorite whites. And I really want people to go and try these. So give us your tasting notes, give us the way they make you feel, the things they remind you of, with some of your favorite Friulian whites.

WY: Well, I can't start talking about Friuli and not talk about Tocai Friulano, which now we just call Friulano. And I think that Tocai was my first love when I got here. And, as much as there are other great wines here, there's something about the nose of Tocai. Even if it can be slightly reduced. The best examples of Tocai Friulano — I know that I've always sort of had them come out of the bottle a little bit stinky, but stinky in a good way. Explosively aromatic, but not grassy aromatic, just fruity aromatic. They're just so beautifully lush and long on the palate. They are big wines, they can be alcoholic, but you can combat that with skill and with patience. You have to make sure that you pick at the right time. So I really love the idea that Friulano has this nose that comes at you with, like, flowers and ripe fruit and almonds and all of these different things that you don't often find in white wine. And then on the palate, you have this richness that gets cancelled out, not necessarily by acidity, because Friulano is not a wine with a lot of acid, but it has more richness and that little snap of bitterness on the end, that green almond bitterness that I love — I love, you know, I love Amaro, I love black coffee. I'm one of those weirdos who likes bitter things. So yeah, I really, really appreciate Tocai Friulano as sort of the standard bearer for native white varieties here. But —

RTB: Beautiful tribute.

WY: Thank you.

RTB: I completely agree.

40:20 — A new blend built on native grapes

WY: The real future of Friulian wines is this movement that's going towards this blend of Tocai, Malvasia, and Ribolla Gialla.

RTB: I thought you were going to say Ribolla Gialla, because they were really promoting that just a few years ago, which I was kind of like — I get the versatility, I tried some really nice ones, but then I would always pick the Friulano out of the lineup. So tell me about this blend, that's kind of news to me.

WY: There's a big movement going on in Collio, which was spearheaded by Christian Keber, and the idea was that they wanted to make Collio Bianco. But Collio Bianco, many, many years ago, sort of had this idea where you could blend anything that was allowed to be grown in Collio into Collio Bianco, so you could put in Sauvignon, and you could put in Gewürztraminer, and you could put in Chardonnay, and you could put in whatever you wanted to create sort of your house wine, your specific blend. And for many, many years in Friuli, those wines were always the most important wines. Vintage Tunina today, Terre Alte, wines like that. There were sort of — okay, everybody had their variety of wines. So you had your Tocai, your Sauvignon, your Chardonnay, blah, blah, blah. But your best wine was a blend.

RTB: But everybody's blend was different.

WY: Yes. Everybody's blend was different. And that was considered an advantage because you could sort of create something that was equally yours. When I worked at Bastianich, it was Vespa Bianco — Chardonnay, Sauvignon, a little dash of Picolit. Everybody was making like their own sort of house blend.

Christian Keber started thinking about this idea of let's concentrate more on local grape varieties. And those local grape varieties are Ribolla Gialla, Malvasia, and Tocai Friulano. And let's make a blend of that and say, okay, we got to limit Ribolla Gialla to a certain percentage, we had to limit Tocai to a certain percentage, because we don't want the wines to be too different. You can identify them however you want. You can put them in wood or in amphora or in stainless steel, whatever you want to do, concrete, whatever you want to do. But those — there's like some loose parameters there that you have to sort of fall into.

And I think those wines are absolutely fabulous. I think those wines are the ones that more easily define what's going on here. And I see more and more, even in Brda, people sort of going toward that blend. And I think that's really important, because what's going to happen is if that sort of standard takes off, you're going to have a particular Friuli white wine that's going to have a bigger impact on the market. People are going to say, oh, okay, that sort of three-grape blend from Friuli is really freaking good. And no matter who you get it from, you're going to be happy. The one that I tasted most recently that really knocked my socks off, and I even posted something about it on Instagram, where I basically said wines like this were the reason that I fell in love with Friuli, is a producer in Collio called Korsič with a K, and he was nice enough to give me a bottle of his local blend. I loved it. I mean, it's energetic and it's rich and it's acidic and it's ripe and it's got everything going for it, because acidity from Ribolla Gialla, freshness, lightness, that's what Ribolla Gialla is all about. Power and aromas and richness from Tocai Friulano. And in Malvasia you get the flowers and you get the aromas. So you put those three grapes together in the right way, that's super.

RTB: Special. Oh, that's so exciting. You— So when you and I are obviously gaga for the indigenous grapes, but just like a quick note for everybody that the, you know, the French international varieties have been in this region for a long time and some of them have really special expression. I really like the Merlot, I really like the Pinot Bianco, so you know, we have two of my favorites as well. Also some fascinating Sauvignon Blanc, Chardonnays grown on that Ponca soil. And if you want to get somebody who isn't that grape-adventurous to try something new — when I was working in wine service, I would often try to recommend, for instance, a Sauvignon Blanc or a Chardonnay from this region, or Pinot Grigio. But what about some of the late harvest wines, the grapes that are vinified into the late harvest style, because those are so special.

44:58 — The case for sweet wine

WY: So we're talking about the sweet wines.

RTB: Yes, yes. So, like, Picolit.

WY: So people, Picolit. So Picolit. Yeah, they're so — and, you know, it's not just that, there are other grapes that people sort of push the limits on as far as ripeness is concerned. Picolit is probably — and I just spoke to Marco Sara about this today — it's such a special grape variety, it's such a difficult grape variety, but it was quite literally the wine of kings for a period in Europe. I mean, there were noble people from Friuli and from Veneto who were bottling this wine before wine was usually put into bottles, and sending it as gifts to, you know, the courts of the most important places in the world, in Europe rather. So, yeah, I mean, there is a certain elegance and beauty to Picolit that I don't think any other sweet wine can come close to. I don't understand why, when we talk about sweet wine in the world, we talk about, you know, Sauternes, and we talk about Tokaji from Hungary, and we don't talk about Picolit, because it is one of the great sweet wines of the world. The problem is, it's sweet — people don't really drink a lot of sweet wine.

RTB: Don't worry, I'm on a mission to make sure that late harvest dessert wine becomes the hot new thing in the culinary experience again. I won't let it die. So that's why I wanted to — please, please help. Yeah, yeah.

WY: Please help.

RTB: It's so delicious. Yeah, yeah, we just opened — when, in fact, I had a very fancy dinner party. I made some steak, and I had a new friend of mine, an old friend of my husband, so we reunited, and didn't realize that he had such a cool wine collection. And he brought over some 1998 Hermitage. And, you know, we drank some really cool wines, and people were kind of busting out their own contributions to keep up with those bottles. I opened my Verduzzo, like a 2014 Verduzzo. It was nice, I think I hoarded it a little bit, I'm not going to lie.

WY: What was the reaction of the people at the party to the Verduzzo? I'm really curious.

RTB: Well, it was a pretty savvy group of people. So especially my friend Noel, who's a somm, in Boston. I know she was — just, you know, rapturous delight, really. If you don't drink nice late harvest dessert wines, you're missing out on rapturous delight. So don't do that to yourself.

WY: I agree, I agree. You know, I did an episode about Picolit for the consorzio, and the thing that I tried to impress upon the people who live here — I mean, so I'm not talking about Americans, I'm just talking about people who live here — is that we should never, ever go home without opening a bottle of Picolit. The end of the night should be a bottle of Picolit, or it could be Verduzzo. So both of them, I think, are equally valid — styles are different, but at the end of the night, when you're about to sort of, like, you know, maybe we should start going home, everybody's got to stop and say, hang on a second, we can't go until we open up. Equally, even if it's just a half bottle and there's six of you and you just have like that last sip before you leave the party, it's just — it's just magic. I mean, sweet wines are so beautiful, they're always so highly rated, and if you talk to anybody who knows anything about wine, they always go, oh, sweet wines are sublime. But for some reason we have this idea that, like, sweet wine, bad. Please drink more Verduzzo, please drink more Picolit.

48:45 — Modo di Bere Magazine: Michele Thomas on Sweet Wines

RTB: Make people — yeah, lots of thoughts on that. But don't worry, you can go to my magazine — the Modo di Bere magazine. The editor of the magazine, Michele Thomas, has released the first installment of what's going to become a whole series about sweet wines. I helped inform the creation of a sweet wine brand from Italy that's now being sold in Nigeria and across West Africa.

I had been wanting for a long time to see somebody give people who like sweet wines more quality options, you know, because it doesn't really make sense to compare the cheaper sweet wines on the market with the late harvest. Those are such different things. Although I think that it was the reputation of the former that dragged down the latter, along with dinner getting shorter, and, you know, a little toxic diet culture there as well.

49:51 — Pinot Grigio: "Don't hate me cause I'm popular"

Sometimes things get so popular that, you know, there's kind of a swing, and I will say it's difficult when things get really popular in a cheap category that's being made in a way that can be scaled and cheap, because what happens then is the branding of it begins to define an entire country, region, style, or grape. This happened with Pinot Grigio — once you realize that most of the Pinot Grigio — Of course, I was just speaking with the people from that consorzio for Pinot Grigio last night, and they're decreasing plantings, they're experimenting, you know, the qualities there. But there have always been great Pinot Grigio. It's not Pinot Grigio, it's — you know, Pinot Grigio is a great grape, it's all about what you do with it, right? So, absolutely. And you know, the same thing with Beaujolais Nouveau or whatever, you know, like, we're even just — something that comes out of style just because it became so popular that people were ready for a change, they — [music]. Here's what I heard on your podcast, that in the new year, you're going to be doing a series of interviews with winemakers on the Slovenian side of that border that's geographically connected, historically connected to the eastern Friuli, in what's usually a region. So we'll just direct — we won't talk about Brda today, we will direct people to your podcast in the new year. But I have one or two last questions for you real quick, I want to know more about the Bastianich Group. What was your work that you did with them? You've mentioned it a couple of times.

51:00 — Wayne's trial by fire at the Bastianich Group

WY: I started with Joe as a sommelier at his restaurant in New York, which was called Becco. It's still called Becco, it still exists. That happened after I left Wine Spectator — so I left Wine Spectator, I wanted to get a more dynamic job, I was sick of sitting in a cubicle, and I called a friend of mine who I went to wine school with, a guy named Dan Perlman. He was the sommelier at that point of Felidia, and that was Joe's mom's restaurant. That was Lidia Bastianich's restaurant.

And he said, we're not looking for anybody here, but I think Joe is looking for someone at Becco. And I was like, who's Joe and what's Becco? I didn't know anything about it. And so I met with Joe, and so I worked as a sommelier there. I went in there — I never worked in a restaurant before, I never carried a plate in my life. But I did go to sommelier school when I was going through WSET, and so I knew a little bit about service. He said to me, do me a favor, put on a suit and a tie, come back next Wednesday and do service. Here's my wine list, look it over, get to know the wines a little bit, and then come in. So I came in at 8:00 after the pre-theater rush, and I just walked in with my suit and I had my, you know, my corkscrew in my pocket. And he just waved me and he said, go sell wine.

Just go. That was my trial. And I just went up to the first table — can I help you with wine? I just started walking around the room and, you know, whatever, what am I supposed to do? And so I started grabbing bottles and opening wines and serving and doing all this sort of stuff. And about an hour, hour and a half into it, he waves me in and he was like, you've never worked in a restaurant before? I was like, never worked in a restaurant before. He's like, you're a natural, start Monday. But I had to learn how to — I couldn't work as a sommelier until I learned how to work as a waiter. And so I worked a week as a waiter, carrying plates, taking orders, putting orders into the computer, all that sort of stuff. And then I could sort of move on. I did that for about three years, and then I decided that restaurant life wasn't for me. And Joe had just bought his vineyard in Friuli in 1998, and he was like, do you want to work in a winery? You want to go work in Italy? And I was like, I don't know. And then I called my ex-wife and she was like, you got offered a job in Italy and you said you don't know? Just say yes, you idiot. Go! How many times in your life is somebody going to offer you a job in Italy? Just go. And I was like, okay, so the next day I went in and I said, yeah, I'll do it. That was July 15th or 16th, and I was in Friuli on August 31st, and we started the harvest on September 1st. So that's how I got here, through the Bastianich family, and then I worked five years in the cellar, left the cellar for a period because I couldn't deal with cellar work anymore, and then I went back as communications manager from like 2007 until 2021.

RTB: Your current incarnation of you as a podcast host and everything else — was that kind of a Covid thing? Because it kind of was for me. We could talk more about it when we switch and you interview me. But, so were you able to kind of find a new passion and a new direction where you got to talk about wine, which I think you're clearly really great at.

53:54 — Yes, we both started a podcast during Covid

WY: Oh, thank you, thank you. I think my passion for talking about wine, and this new sort of chapter in my life, came because I sort of felt like I needed to move on from Bastianich. And I loved working for Bastianich, and it was something that I said to Joe multiple times — that I always treated that winery as if it were my own. And I traveled a lot, and I was in the States for two, two and a half months a year promoting the wines. And, you know, I was the guy who did all the visits and tastings at the winery. So I really was emotionally attached to the winery. But I kind of felt like my time there had come to an end. I wasn't sort of progressing any further, things had changed, the sales director left, so I just felt like I needed a change. And then Covid came, and that was the push that I needed to sort of move on from there. What happened during Covid? Clubhouse happened during Covid, and so everybody was on Clubhouse chatting, and so, of course, I fell into the wine groups, and I was hanging out with guys like Matthew Horkey, talking about wine for 24 hours a day, seven days a week, because we didn't have anything else to do because we were stuck in the house. And then I was like, why don't I do a podcast? And I actually did a podcast a long, long time ago with my friend Mateo, and the technology wasn't there to do a podcast well. And now the technology is there where an idiot like me can actually put together a podcast — it doesn't sound like it was recorded inside of an empty freight container.

RTB: Well, you don't seem like an idiot to me, no matter how lucky you are.

WY: Well, I'm an idiot as far as, you know, technology and sound design and all of that sort of stuff.

RTB: So, you know, when you want to do something, you just learn. It was weird for me because I was a musician, I was really used to being around recording, it wasn't so foreign to me, but I had never been the one hitting the buttons, so I had to learn that too. But my last question for you, and then we should switch, because I'm going to get interviewed on your show, everybody.

WY: Exactly.

56:30 — Listen to RT's Interview on Wayne's Podcast La Taverna

RTB: So if you want to see the tables turned and me answer some questions, you can — not that I don't talk and tell you what I think on this show, but you can hear more about whatever he's going to ask me about on Wayne's podcast, La Taverna. Do you have a website or anything, Wayne, that people can find you at? Or should they just look for La Taverna.

WY: La Taverna Friuli. And then it can be either .com or .it, one or the other.

RTB: La Taverna Friuli. We will put that in the show notes. Please visit, Wayne and I are really trying to help each other out here, so go over there and check out his show, download an episode, hit follow, share the love with people who care about — that's why we care about this. Then I will say, I found it really cool too. Another thing that we have in common is that we both have episodes in English and Italian. A lot of your episodes are in Italian, so if you're someone who speaks fairly good Italian and you'd like to practice, that could be a really good way. I know I partially learned Italian from listening to some wine podcasts, and that was really helpful to me. So that's there for you as a tool. But he does have some episodes in English as well. So, Wayne, is there anything else you want to add before we wrap up and switch over to La Taverna, and I'll do my interview, I think.

57:44 — Done is better than perfect

WY: Yeah, I think we've covered everything. I think one of the most important things that I've learned, going with the flow of this sort of change of life during Covid and taking on new things, is to keep in mind something that someone told me a long time ago, which is done is better than perfect. And that's kind of the philosophy that I've always had with my podcast — if you're going to sit there and tweak every little sound and every little detail, you're never going to get it done. So, okay, get it done, get it published, get it out there. And then the next time you can improve a little bit more. And I feel that my podcast has improved over four years. So, done is better than perfect.

RTB: Something about the podcast publication schedule, that you guys are waiting to hear what I'm going to do next, has helped me work through some of that perfectionism as well. So, you know, learning is about making mistakes. Learning is about trying new things. It's about not worrying about looking silly as much as you worry about accomplishing your goals. So, right, get out there. Don't worry, everybody's just thinking about themselves anyway. Anyone who's going to be that judgmental is just missing out on all the finer things of life.

WY: The joy.

59:00 — Outro

RTB: I don't want you to miss out on those things because you're worried about whatever anyone thinks. I mean, life is short, you know. Wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Support us on Patreon.

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