Dr. Rebecca Lawrence is a wine educator, running enthusiast, podcaster, and the Head of Editorial for Wine and Hip Hop. She and Rose Thomas discuss minor(?) wording differences in insults from Verona and Friuli, Rebecca's BBC accent, rap in wine study, and the best advice for people with dreams to get started in wine or any other grand adventure.
For more information on Rebecca's work with Jermaine Stone at Wine and Hip Hop, check out the Wine and Hip Hop website: www.wineandhiphop.com.
Listen to Rebecca's podcast, Running for the Wine: https://kite.link/running-drinking-and-knowing
- Auto-generated transcript. (Please excuse errors.)Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister, and I'm extremely pleased to interview today's guest, Dr. Rebecca Lawrence. Rebecca is a wine educator, running enthusiasts, podcast and the head of editorial for wine and hip hop here at Modo di Bere. I always remind our listeners to never stop learning. No one could embody this advice more than Dr. Rebecca Lawrence. Alongside her many certifications, Rebecca is my fellow Italian wine ambassador. We bonded over our mutual passion for Italian wine, a passion that actually led Rebecca to relocate from England to Verona, learn a new language and start a new life. As we know, this is a show about local drinks and local sayings. Rebecca, is there that one drink you definitely always have in Verona? Or is the answer just all the wines because the enormous Vignetilli wine fair takes place there? Hey, Rose. Oh, So many wines, so many wines. I mean, there's always wine in the rack. One of the things I have found really interesting about relocating from London where I spent, you know, gosh, too many years to mention, into Italy is going from a market where you can get basically any wine that you want from anywhere in the world to Italy which is so much more focused on completely local. Everyone here drinks local so mostly what you find here in Verona are wines from the Veneto, so the Valpolicellas, the Suaves, the Amorones, that kind of thing. You might venture a little bit outside of the area, you might get some Lugana, the cross -regional Appalachian, you might get some flantua quarter but they drink really local and that has definitely been a bit of a change of scene for me particularly as actually the one thing that I always like to have in my rack is vernaccio di san gimignano. I love the white wines of san gimignano so I'm afraid sorry veneto but I'm always reaching out to my friends in Tuscany to send me either vernaccio or I'm afraid the vino nobiles from multiple giano which is where my heart truly lives. Is there a saying, a word or a piece of slang a person can say that makes you go that person is from Verona? I do remember unfortunately it's not actually related to king. But I do remember having a heated debate with two of my colleagues about a kind of moda di dire about whether you're whether someone is crazy. And the kind of local veneto saying for that is foricon balkone, which means like outside with the balcony. But a friend of mine who is actually from Friuli, their phrase Foric on l 'Itleño, so outside with the wood. And they had this really heated debate about which was correct. And these are regions that are very close to each other, but they just got so completely wound up. It was about a 45 minute heated debate. And I was like, but neither of these sayings really makes sense. But that always makes me laugh when I think about sort of local sayings. In terms of an Italian saying, one of the very first idioms that I learned was the idea of if you've had too much to drink, the thing you've done is you've raised your elbow. And I think my Italian teacher knows me too well, because it was one of the first modi di dire that I learned, which is I raised my elbow last night or sat on miogometer, Just to warn her before a lesson that maybe she should go easy on me. Oh my goodness now one of the first Italian friends of mine that started teaching me about the wealth of Local language in Italy was a friend from Rome and he I wonder if this is where the saying comes from He told me that his grandfather And the waiter would come around at the restaurant with the grappa. His grandfather would reach, you know, underneath the elbow of the waiter as he was pouring to say more, you know, to like, to change the angle of the bottle so that, you know, so it's like, I wonder, because I wonder if the act of pouring and the, the elbow and the bottle going, you know, right into the glass is, we'll have to, I mean, honestly, every single one of these sayings, as you were mentioning with the, I love that there were two different versions in Friuli versus Veneto, and I find every single one of these sayings could, you know, be an entire study. So we'll have to add that to the list of asking Italians we meet from various regions if they say something about the elbow and what they think it means. I'm also curious what region you're from in England and is there a local drink or local saying that you can share from back home? Oh yeah so despite the accent which I have spent years honing to be my my BBC voice I'm actually from the northeast so I'm from a kind of steel industrial town on the northeast coast called Middlesbrough, made famous probably for, certainly for your English speaking listeners for the film Billy Elliot, which was filmed there. So I'm from there. And beer is probably the thing that most people drank growing up. And specifically, there's a beer from a town kind of slightly further north, a city of Newcastle called Newke Brown. So you would often you'd go into a pub and order a pint of brown, which doesn't sound particularly great. And in terms of phrases, I, I hadn't realized how a bit like actually in Italy, how phrases are so particular and so connected to place. Because when I met the person who's now my husband, I used a phrase without even thinking one evening and he just did not know what I was talking about. He had never heard this. He was convinced this is something I had completely made up and I was like, no, no, no, this is a phrase. This is what everybody says. And it's the idea of having your wine jacket or your beer jacket. So, you know, the Northeast is famous for people going out in short sleeves and tiny skirts and tiny dresses because you're going to have your beer jacket later in the night once you've had some alcohol you warm up so you don't need it and I remember using this phrase to him when we were going out somewhere I said oh don't worry I'll have my wine jacket and he just looked so stunned so completely blank and had never heard of it because he's from a completely different place so yeah that's that's the one that always makes me laugh and is so ingrained to me but Lots of people, I mean, that's not a thing. I was like, it's definitely a thing. - That is wonderful. I wonder if you can like close your eyes, go back home, put on your old accent and order a new key brown. - Well, if you want to do it truly in the accent, now my accent is not actually from Newcastle, but several of my best friends are. And if you were going to ask someone if they wanted to go out and have a drink, you'd ask, you're ganning for a brown. You're gan them. You're ganning for a brown. You're ganning for a brown. That's one. Are you going for a glass of brown? You're ganning. Does it mean like gunning, like a gun or just that means to go? It's the abbreviation for going, but it's spelt with a hard A. So, ganning. Oh, that's marvelous. Thank you so much for sharing those. Rebecca, we reunited recently at the Wine and Hip Hop Festival in Bushwick, New York. Could you tell our listeners around the world all about wine and hip hop and how you came to work with its creator, Jermaine Stone? Yeah, that happened over a glass of wine, actually. A glass of wine in a podcast recording got me into the wine and hip -hop world. I had long been a fan of what he was doing, super into wine and very much into hip -hop, although I do not consider myself a connoisseur having met the rest of the wine and hip -hop team. I realize I've got some way to go. But I was using rap in the classroom as an educator to demystify wine for people, to give them an extra tool for learning because I just found it easier. I found it really easy to remember verses. And during a podcast recording with Jermaine, I was very lucky to have him on my running podcast. We were talking about, you know, this idea of both wine culture and hip hop culture, being a little bit exclusive, being a little bit difficult for people to get into and ways that you can open those two cultures up. One of the things I love about wine and hip -hop is that is what he was doing. So I very fortunately was lucky to pitch a couple of the ideas that I'd had and he asked me to come on board and join the team about a year ago now. It was a huge honour. As I said I love what he's doing and this idea of demystifying both cultures, whilst also elevating both cultures. And I guess, like you say, the culmination of that was the Wine and Hip Hop Festival. The first ever of its sort held over two days in Bushwick in November, the gosh, can't remember the dates, 12th and 13th. That's terrible. It's such a blur. But we did six events, all of which blending personalities from wine and hip -hop industry kind of legends from both cultures coming together for educational events, for food and wine pairing, for dinners to kind of demonstrate that these are two cultures that talk to each other that have a lot of things in common and that we should celebrate and I think probably my kind of the best way to explain that in action was we did a New York state of wine tasting Where we talked about the teua of New York State and the wines and the teua of New York hip -hop Which is so closely connected to which neighborhood you grew up in and and who you grew up listening to and we had Tracks being paired with different wines and different terroirs from New York State. And there are so many things like that that these two industries and cultures have in common that it just makes sense to us. I love this idea of expanding the concept of terroir, which is something that I'm doing with this project, with the romantic conception that the local language is part of the terroir, Or at least that there is some connection between the preservation efforts, for instance, to maintain a local language and stop it from becoming a dead language or, you know, a dialect that, you know, people are told to stop speaking. You know, you need to speak real, whatever the main language is. As you know, compared to the, particularly in particularly in Italy, and elsewhere, the preservation of local talktownist grapes and wines and styles that may have fallen out of fashion, but have such a long history and tradition. And so when people come to replant those things and preserve those cultural items, I like to think about the terroir of language as well as the terroir of Wine. So I love that expansion. So Wine and Hip Hop also is a podcast. I'd love to hear just a little bit about the podcast. And also I noticed these wonderful YouTube episodes, tasty notes from the streets. Could you tell us a little bit about besides the festival, the Wine and Hip Hop project? Sure. I do love what you're saying about language. I just want to, before I dive into talking about the podcast, because one of the things that we also did at the festival was talk about the language of wine and how you present wines and language and complexity of language in both wine and in hip -hop. So I think it is, it is absolutely, like you say, completely part of the teua and part of where you're from and where your cultural understanding is from. So the podcast. So the podcast is how it kind of all originated. Jermaine started it to have these conversations with people either in wine or in hip hop. The initial idea being that the pairing of a wine with a hip hop track and a discussion around around that and whoever the guest is, whether they're in white or hip hop, sort of talking about their connections to each culture. So that's how it kind of started. And then yeah, we've got, from that came a YouTube series, which is Wine and Hip Hop TV, which is the visual version of that. So allowing a little bit more of a deep dive, allowing our listeners to see those interviews happening in the actual studio or in the place. And then we have, I could say, Tasting Notes from the streets, which is our food and wine pairing series, very much taking street food culture or neighborhood hood culture and food, and pairing it with fine wines from around the world. So demonstrating that I think probably one of my favorites is the chopped cheese episode. So you can walk into any bodega anywhere in New York. I have recently experience this and just order a chop cheese which is an amazingly cool dish which I wish I had more of and we paired that with northern rhone wines made from syrup so a completely staple neighborhood you know sort of six bucks seven buck food with potentially a $50 bottle of wine and talked about why those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive, why you can drink these incredible wines with these great local foods and how basically wine is for any occasion that you make it for. And we recently have been expanding that concept around the world. So we spent most of June traveling in Bordeaux and in Burgundy, shooting content in these very prestigious regions. Again, demonstrating that street food, everyday common foods, burgers, grilled cheese, can go with these really incredible wines, and that they're actually very natural pairings. I think we've got the Burgundy episode coming out soon. We did Enna Bianco and Fried Fish. Just the possibilities are endless and I love working on that show because just the conversations we have in the office about what food are we going to try next and what wine would we put in it? I mean, they're just some of the best conversations. They obviously get derailed constantly by me getting hungry. Oh my god, it sounds like a dream. I like to, we definitely need to bring Jermaine on and just be all in a room together because we're also doing all these combination shows, you know, pairings, right? Wine and hip hop, wine and language, in my case, and also wine and running. You also have your own podcast, Running for the Wine. I really love the concept of the information exchange that you have with your co -host, Morgan Richie. He was a wine rookie and you were a running rookie, correct? Yeah. Yeah, so I was just getting into running but didn't know anything about it and kept going out of my runs and just finding these connections between themes in my runs and themes in wine and quite a lot of language actually, this idea of common language, things that I would think about on my runs would spark an idea about how we talk about wine or how we talk about training for exams and so I kind of put the word out that I really wanted to see if other people had this approach and I was directed towards Morgue who is a very successful runner, has been running for many years, he's you know actually fast and very good at it but didn't know anything about wine and he lives in a wine region, he's in Washington state, was really keen to know more about it, but didn't know where to go. And I thought, well, if I'm looking for these connections and finding them, maybe other people are, maybe that's something interesting to explore on a podcast. So I basically twisted his arm and decided that we were gonna do a podcast. And actually, funnily enough, the first ever episode, if people go back and listen to it, that's the first time I'd ever spoken to Morgh in person. I'd never heard his voice. It was a huge risk. He's got the perfect voice for a podcast. But we literally, we had five minutes before we started the podcast and like, Hey, I'm Rebecca. I do this. He was like, Hey, I'm Morgh. I do this. And then we started, which is crazy to think that it went so well given that risk. But we have a very good editor. Oh, that's it sounds very authentic, the process of getting to know each other. It's and I love the podcast. I think it's great. I love what you guys talk about finding those connections. So besides becoming a PhD, a wine expert and a podcaster, you have done two other things that many people only dream about moving to another country and learning a new language. I'd love for you to bring to life for our listeners, what it was like to dream of moving to Verona and then do it and desire to learn Italian and then learn Italian. What were the logistics of those accomplishments? - That's a great question. So my husband and I fell in love with Italy around, God, it's such a corny story, but around the time we fell in love with each other. And because we had this love for this place, we decided that we would like to move there. So we basically, being problem solvers and coming from that sort of very structured academic background, we wrote out a 10 -year plan of, you know, this is where we need to get to, and this is where we are and then we broke it down into all the little tiny steps that we needed to do. And if anyone is thinking about taking on a huge project like that, I highly recommend this approach because you just see incremental progress all the time to getting to that point. But there's also a huge amount of luck involved and I was very fortunate to just be in the right place at the right time with the right skill set for a job that came up in Verona. Now, it had originally been our plan to be in Umbria. That's the kind of place we would like to be eventually. No shade on Verona, we love it, but my heart is in the countryside. But I was in Verona having a conversation about wine education and various things and was very fortunate to be offered a job with Vinicius International working on their education program and that was just the last that kind of skip the last three steps that we had which was you know learn the language find a job. I was very fortunate that I was offered a job in an international company So we were able to come to Italy and I could learn the language in the place. Now I had a little bit of Italian coming in but certainly not enough to work in an Italian office. So there was that huge, huge piece of the universe gifting me an opportunity and us grabbing it. In terms of how the Italian goes, If you work in an office with mostly Italians, they expect, as they rightly should, that eventually you're going to learn the language, that you are going to come in, not just with English. And so I was very fortunate that actually another one of the even Italy International Academy ambassadors gave me details of her Italian teacher, who is very, very good and very fun and very flexible. And I started taking Italian lessons, basically every lunch break that I had, and forced myself to have absolutely awful, stunted, difficult conversations in Italian, constantly with my colleagues, getting the pronunciation wrong and the grammar wrong, but They are, and still are, incredibly patient with me. And we're incredibly excited that I was so thrilled to sort of slowly be able to communicate. And we definitely had, and still actually beat myself up about my lack of Italian, even though now I would say it's pretty good. But I just had to eventually start speaking it. And suddenly, I think probably about about a year, maybe a year and a half in, had that realization of like, oh, oh, I just had a conversation with someone in Italian. Oh, I couldn't do that before. And that really showed to me that even if I didn't feel like I was making progress, I was. And thankfully for the patients of my colleagues was having that opportunity to speak all the time. They basically got to a point, I think, maybe it was my second Christmas in the office, and they all decided. They kind of got together the group that I worked with most commonly and said, "Okay, when we come back in January, we're not speaking English to you anymore." But nope, that's it, we're cutting you off. You've just got to speak Italian. And it was Terrible. But it worked. So I highly take the plunge. If you if you want to learn the language, just it's really embarrassing. And it's really hard when you start out. But that that moment where you managed to order something in another language or crack a joke, or when you suddenly realize you've had a little bit of a conversation without realizing it. There is no feeling like that. That's marvelous. And you know, we learn by making mistakes, that's how we learn, you know, the word that you went out in on the spelling bee is a word you will never forget how to spell. So you know, I think taking the shame out of it, you know, this is something I'd love to talk about with a linguist in another episode, but you know, people talk about neuroplasticity of the brain and children learning language and, you know, I feel that it must be so that it's also the lack of shame in children that they're not so worried about making a mistake that also helps younger people really learn quickly. So I'm actually curious about being a beginning runner in that experience, to just go back to that for just a second, letting yourself be a beginner in that way as well and having that sort of humbling experience and then having a breakthrough where you, you realise you've got it. So I commend you for trying new things and becoming so successful at them. I mean, if you saw me running, you wouldn't think I'm successful. But I kind of, with the running, just got to the point where I gave up caring. And in that kind of continuing to learn, I have taken the plunge for 2023 and gotten myself an actual proper running coach. And I was so, I was so scared about reaching out and saying, you know, I would like help with my running, I have these goals, but I'm super slow. And everyone says they're a slow runner. I am a slow runner like truly very very slow and I sent all my stats across this coach and I said you know what I what I lack in speed I make up for an enthusiasm you know if I haven't scared you off love to work with you and I got a very funny email back saying well I definitely like a challenge and I was like yeah so you're saying I'm slow but that's cool but he didn't Back away. He was like, I like a challenge, you know, if you're willing to work on it You can work on it. And I think that's true across Everything that we do whether that's that's language or running or learning about things if you say sometimes you just Have to go into it being aware like so. I do think This discussion of shame is really interesting because it's absolutely true in language of being And I'm still like that. I'm still too scared to take an official appointment in case I get the words wrong and I won't join a running club because I'm worried about being too slow. And I'm also worried about the terms in Italian. So there's like a double whammy. And I think if you can somehow get yourself past that and go, well, it doesn't matter. Even if I feel it, it doesn't matter because if I just take that first step, if I just have that first conversation, the next one's going to be easier, and the next one's going to be easier, and eventually, it doesn't matter how slowly you speak or how slowly you run, you're still doing it. Doing it is everything. That is wonderful advice. We actually will both be putting ourselves to the test in the Italian version of this podcast in a little bit. So listeners can head over to the Italian language version language version of MotoDBerry. And, you know, I don't know if people at this point are using the podcast in this way, but if you are a language learner and you want to do a side by side, we're also going to, both of us non -native speakers, you know, are going to bravely record the same interview in Italian in a few minutes. So that is also available both for People who speak Italian and people who want to speak Italian to come and check that out and and watch To to shameless souls in action We get things done Things that people can be intimidated about getting into but shouldn't have to be I Really admire and appreciate your motto wine education shouldn't be dry? - I just, I got really fed up of people being scared of education, feeling like those doors weren't open to them because maybe an educator didn't look like them and didn't sound like them. I think if you don't see yourself represented, you don't know that that's something that's open to you, whether that's being an educator or being a student in the classroom and especially with wine, it's always held up as this really complex, challenging world full of, certainly until very recently, old white men. And it shouldn't be like that. I mean, one, it's fermented grapes, like it's alcohol, it's booze, like you can't take that too seriously. And also you can approach something in a non -serious way while still maintaining that the information within it is incredibly serious and yes, it is complex. And maybe what we should be doing is not trying to make this more complex than it is, but breaking it down in ways that are approachable and the big problem that wine has at the moment is people aren't drinking as much wine. You know producers need to sell wine and we need consumers who see themselves in the wine culture, who feel recognized and spoken for and I mean that's one of the big reasons for wine in hip -hop and that was my approach to education. that, you know, you should have a small green -haired Northern woman, although don't have the accent, but hey, that's another story. Talking about wine, using rap, using stupid jokes, trying to help you remember this really complex information in a way that's not complicated. And if you've been in my classroom, you know, I cannot take myself too seriously. I mean, seriously, you just can't. I mean, I'm, like I say, I'm a small pink -haired white girl who raps in her classroom. No one can take that seriously. But if that means, you know, if someone remembers your joke, if someone remembers the rap you made about the Predacat, and that helps them pass that qualification, that makes them realize that they are capable of being in that space. That's what educators should be doing and I have to thank actually WSET who many people I think are worried about the the spaces of qualifications but it was the London school when I approached them to educate that just jumped on it and I remember having a conversation with one of the it's actually one of the Italian specialists at the London school And he said, "We need people like you in the classroom. Yes, we would love to have you teaching." And I was like, "Great." He's like, "We need people with dyed hair and tattoos and a different approach to make sure people still think that education is for them." - That's great, yeah, this is for you. - And I also, I mean, I get that from my dad as well. He's a huge inspiration. - I'm remembering now, speaking of the dyed hair that I meant to ask you two questions. Do you remember the Prada Cut wrap? Is this wrapping wine education immortalized somewhere on the internet? Yes. I don't know if the Prada Cut wrap is. - Oh dear, I might need a glass of wine. (laughing) - That sounds great, and just for our listeners, WSET stands for Wine Spirits Educational Trust, and that is one of the ways that people can learn more about wine, and Rebecca is a teacher with them now in Italy, correct? - In Italy and in London, I still maintain my position in and so I do mostly for them a lot of remote student assessment but yeah I do I couldn't ever after such a positive opened armed approach I could never leave London behind. What was the name of your youthful punk band that you were in? Probably the the funniest name if you're interested in language because I mean I don't know how you touched on this so sort of prophetically, but the my favorite band name was Too Much Ruth, because I was once told I wasn't ruthless enough as a singer that I had too much Ruth. I love that. That's great. And you were a you're a bass player in a punk rock band. And that is someone who should definitely be in wine and, um, and go all the way with wine. So, you know, as someone we haven't, we haven't, um, really gotten into all of your many certifications and accomplishments. Um, we can put some of those in the notes for the episode. You know, you've developed this deep expertise in, in wine. Um, so what is the best piece of advice you as an educator have for someone who says to you, "Oh, I know nothing about wine," or "I wish I knew more." Normally, my piece of advice, if you're trying to get into wine, if you have an independent wine store near you, is to go to your independent wine store and say, "Hey, I know nothing about wine, but I would like to try something," and be very clear about what your budget is you know say I've got ten dollars to spend I've got twenty dollars to spend what can you recommend for me and if they ask you what kind of things you like and you don't know how to respond I think a great way of thinking about it is what else you enjoy eating and drinking like if you really like you know cranberry soda for example Say to them well, I don't really drink much wine, but I would normally drink something like a cranberry soda And they'll go okay great, then you probably like something. That's a little bit highly acidic with red fruit flavors That is just giving them a different way of your Let's just giving them your palette Just in a different form and the reason I say go to independence is They want you to be happy. I worked in independent retail for seven years We don't want you to be intimidated when you walk in We want you to be happy with what you purchase because that probably means you're gonna come back and that's our goal and also We're like me. We love to talk about wine. We love to share new discoveries There is no budget too small Most of the people who work in wine don't have a lot of money You know, they may like to talk about drinking burgundy, but normally when someone else is paying for it. So don't be afraid of how small your budget is, and don't be afraid to use other markers from what you eat and drink to help someone help you find that wine for you. 'Cause that's all completely valid. If you like highly acidic or bitter things or red fruits, or you always cuts when they're in season. Chances are you're going to like those flavors in a wine. They're just the same flavors just because it's not in a wine doesn't mean it's not valid. So that would be my very long -winded piece of advice. I've never heard anyone quite put it that way. That is so helpful. I think to people can be very intimidated not knowing the terms. That is such a great way to to get in there and let someone know what you like, and again, you know, what you like, you're the one who's going to be drinking that glass of wine. So, you know, taste is something that certainly can be, you know, honed and developed, but at the end of the day, I think the goal is enjoyment. Yeah, absolutely. And what you like is what you like. There's no right or wrong answer for that. Yeah. Thank you so much, Rebecca for speaking with me today and for all your work to open the world of wine to everyone to make connections instead of disconnections. I will put all the information for your projects in the notes for this episode to all of our listeners thank you wherever you go and whatever you drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Thank you for listening to Modo De Berry, the podcast for local drinks and local sayings. If you love the show, please take a moment to write a five -star review. Find Modo De Berry on YouTube, Blogspot, Instagram, and TikTok for even more unique and encouraging drinks and language content. If you'd love for the show to continue and grow, support MotoDBerry on Patreon and unlock bonus episodes. Music for the show is composed by Arcilia Prosperi and performed by the band OU. You can purchase their recordings at oumusic .bandcapt .com. Engañándose, déjase para ese mismo Cuella de tango frío al recortar
Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: www.oumusic.bandcamp.com
Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister.
Audio assistance by Steve Silverstein.
