▷S4E7 The Boot in 20: Friuli-Venezia Giulia, with Paul Balke

SPANISH LEARNERS NEEDED! This episode is brought to you by Culture Without Borders Language Collective, our exclusive sponsor for the month of October 2025. If you've been wishing for real people to practice your Spanish with, CWB is looking for more English-speaking Spanish learners to join their monthly language exchange.These online meetups are completely FREE for participants.

Visit cwbcollective.com and subscribe to their newsletter to get the dates for the next meetup.

---

Paul Balke's exuberant devotion to Italian wine regions bubbles up like a glass of prosecco—which, we learn in this episode, did not originate in Veneto, but rather in the village of Prosek, near Trieste.

This special, double-size installment of The Boot in 20 is a true deep dive. Even diehard fans of Friulian wines will learn indigenous grapes they've never heard of before. Those who listen to the end will win enlightenment regarding the world's most exciting slices of ham!

The Boot in 20 series features an interview with an expert on the wines of Italy's 20 regions. After hearing this episode, you'll understand the geopolitical history that leads Paul to insist on discussing the wines of Friuli-Venezia Giulia in context with the wines of western Slovenia and the Croatian wines of the Istrian peninsula. 

Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian

Paul with Rose Thomas and Emilia, who were very grateful for Paul’s advice as they shot a season of Modo di Bere TV in the North Adriatic region.

Rose Thomas took Paul’s book on the road, pictured here in Collio

Inspired to plan a trip to this region? You must consult Paul's beautiful book, North Adriatic. You can order it from Paul directly at his website, where you can also learn about Paul's winemaking and piano music!

Paul's website: paulbalke.com
Follow Paul on Instagram: instagram.com/paulbalke 

Subscribe to the newsletter!   

Note: Paul Balke currently lives in rural Calabria and we struggled with our connection and other technical issues. While the audio quality does not quite match our usual standards, we think Paul's incredibly educational perspective is worth it. 

If you have trouble understanding any of the place names, or want a little assistance in following this meaty episode, please refer to the edited transcript. You can also visually see the chapter titles if you watch this episode on YouTube @ mododiberepodcast. 

• Expand for edited transcript. (Please excuse errors.)

  (Paul Balke) In Friuli you have the Italian quality of life. The quality of life is fantastic. Every day it's finished with a beautiful glass of wine in any place anywhere you are. And you can also be sure that there's a very high probability that you are in the sun because many time I came there I came from Piemonte and in Piemonte in the winter you have snow and rain and clouds and then you come in Friuli and there's the  blue sky and the sun.

  (RTB) Welcome to Modo di Bere the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister

  Today I have a special edition of Modo di Bere another installment of the Boot in 20 series where we go through each one of Italy's 20 wine regions with an expert in that region who is going to tell us everything that we need to know to begin to explore this region. Today we're doing a region that I really love, Friuli in northeastern Italy. And I want to introduce my guest who is here to take us through Friuli and the North Adriatic, which includes Western Slovenia and the area of Istria. I'm here with Paul Bake who is a journalist and wine lover who has published three books including the very beautiful North Adriatic. The book that I have been reading and really enjoying about the about this wine region. It is a absolutely gorgeous travel book. Everything that a wine and travel book should be. I've really been enjoying reading it and I'm really happy that Paul is here to speak with us. So Paul has written this book about the North Adriatic. He's also written a book about Piemonte and he's been he's originally from the Netherlands but he's lived in Italy for many years and is also like myself a musician, a music lover, a pianist and himself a wine maker. Paul, did I leave anything out that you want our listeners to know about your biography? 

  (PB) I think you hit the most important points. 

  (RTB)Yes. Wonderful. Well, welcome, Paul. Thank you so much for being here with us today. 

  (PB) Yes. Really happy. 

  (RTB) Wonderful. So, Paul and I met at the Vinitaly Wine Fair this spring of 2023 in Verona, and he handed me a copy of this very special, very lovely, large travel book, and I am so happy that we have the opportunity to speak with each other. So, Paul, let's let's let's dive in and talk about the North Adriatic. I think it would be great for our listeners to just begin with the map. So we can talk about the Friuli region. So take us through the map of Friuli and the other parts of the what you're calling the North Adriatic to help us understand where we are geographically, please.

  (PB) Well, maybe first you should tell the audience that I'm a very big Italy lover. I live in Italy and Italy is my favorite country and I enjoy Italy. I love the country, the people, the the culture, everything. When I am driving in Italy, I look for the the great food, the great wines, and I always enjoy meeting the people. They're very funny. They're great, and they can be really fantastic. So, what happens when I went to Friuli? In Friuli, I did my study. I studied the region. I studied also a lot of history. And I came across the the fact that when you see the eastern border of Friuli, you have to uh discover that this border is a bit artificial. Because after the second world war 1947, they had to make at some place some border where they was no border before and that's how the region uh was defined. And then you had Friuli and now the eastern part that uh before was in the same country is now um in three countries. So um I am going back to the to the original history of the wine region because the wine is the most important thing and not the other things because but in order to understand the wine you have to understand a little bit the history. So I started to drive around Collio which is a beautiful region in Collio and in Collio it's very easy to enter the border and to to what was formerly Yugoslavia and it's now Slovenia because in fact Collio has the form of a half moon shape and inside the half moon is the Slovenian part which is also part of Collio the part which is now called Goriška Brda. Both together are still one of the most important wine regions worldwide and that's one of the messages of my book is in the mid there is the the border that used to be the border between Italy and Yugoslavia and now is the border between Italy and Slovenia. This area near Gorizia in the past was the the most important wine region of the Hapsburg period of Austria of Vienna and still is a very important wine region and maybe it's not really on the radar of many people and I think the importance of this area needs to be understood well when you are in Collio you go to the west there's a large area it's called Grave there's a smaller area northeast of the town Udine is called Colli Orientali. Then you have, south, by the sea, you have some regions that are not very well known: Friuli Annia, Friuli Latisana, Aquileia, and Isonzo. And then you go to the east and you have a very special region in the area of Trieste, this is called the Karst. In Italian language it would be Carso. And the Karst also is totally different from the rest because it is karst, which means very heavy stones stony region difficult life conditions difficult conditions for growing anything also wine, but, anything. It is the same geological area that goes from around Trieste down to Greece the whole part of uh the the mountains So, Croatia, Montenegro, Albania to Greece is the same kind of car area south of that area near Triest you have some small wine regions that is already Istria because Istria start in fact starts near Trieste there are several definitions of Istria you have one that is only Croatia but the real Istria is including also part of Slovenia and in fact also for the area of Muggia which is in [the gulf of] Trieste. So officially also a part of Italy is in Istria. To the east of Istria you have a large bay area. One of the most beautiful parts of Europe and one of the most special wine regions that they ever saw is the Kvarner area. Nobody knows about this and there is so much interesting thing to discover there. It's called Quarnaro in Italian or Kvarner in English. (RTB) That's fantastic. So, so tell me more about this artificial border. When and why was it created and what was the effect of its creation on this previously united wine region? 

  (PB) Well, you have to understand that the town of Gorizia has a very old history. Is a beautiful town. It has been part of the Austin Empire for more than 10,000 years. And the the the the seat of Gorizia was also the the headquarter and the the the capital of the country that used to be a very big country and later it all became Austria. And the most important wine region in that period was a huge region of hills north of Gorizia. And it also included the hills to the east into what is now the power valley and also a small part of the car to the south that was in a part in the past called the area of Gorizia. Then we we are speaking about the period before the 19th century. Gorizia remained very important until 1920. So this whole wine area in that was was one country it was Austria. Then you had the first world war it became all Italy because everything changed. Then you had second world war and then they had to make the border between Italy and that was the most important point because then they had to make the borders around Gorizia and also south of south around Gorizia etc. And that was difficult because this very beautiful wine region which has a beautiful ambiance, beautiful culture, high quality conditions of life, high quality wines, it is already known for centuries. This area was then broken into two because of political reasons. And that's means that for a long period the part that became uh the Italian part is now called Collio and then you have some other parts too but let's speak about Collio because it's mostly important it became very famous the the people who lived at the other part of the border they were sometimes family relatives friends of the people in Italy but they lived in in another country in other political sphere so they could only sell their graves to the cooperative because that was the socialistic system in Yugoslavia and they saw their friends and their relatives in Collio prosper because they became very rich companies and very wealthy and they became very important in Italy and worldwide. So it's understandable that the the wineries and the wine people in the east is a part of the border they as soon as Yugoslavia split up and the country became independent they they wanted to grow and they wanted to become important too and that's what we see what is happening now. 

  (RTB) So Paul what was it about these wines that called to you? What was it about these this territory that called to you? I understand it was from the introduction of your book it was almost the area came to you in a dream. You speak of this special quality of light with the alpine breezes and the sea breezes mixing together and making this beautiful quality of light. I've experienced this myself when I visited this region in 2022. So what was it that drew you to these wines and to this place? 

  (PB) There are many things in Friuli. You have the Italian quality of life. The quality of life is fantastic. Every day is finished with this beautiful glass of wine in any place anywhere you are. And you can also be sure that there's a very high probability that you are in the sun because many time I came there I came from Piemonte and Piemonte in the winter you have snow and rain and clouds and then you come in Friuli and there's a blue sky and the sun and that's a big difference and I tell the people in Friuli how fortunate they are because they have fantastic weather conditions. I I remember one time I came from Macedonia which is south in the Balkan it was minus 20 there and then we the next day we were in Friuli and at noon we are sitting outside having our lunch outside in the sun. It's it's much more north and still it's incredible because the the climate conditions in this area are very special. So the people uh who live there they do not know really how fortunate they are they are it's almost Mediterranean which is small touch of continental climate but uh this is this special condition is very special and that's also the main reason for the quality of the wines so you ask me about the wines what I like in the wines and what I liked from the start when you drink a wine from Collio from Collio Orientali or from some of the famous producers from Isonzo. They are very elegant, but these wines have also a minerality and a body which is very refined and and also very typical and recognizable that you don't find in other regions and that is so special. Tell me more about the climate and geography geology of this region in terms of wine growing conditions. You have to understand that near three years you have the northern part of the Adriatic Sea which brings in the summer cool air into the area but in winter it keeps the region also warmer because the the the sea never becomes very very cool. And then a few kilometers north of course you will have already the Alps. In such a small distance you have the sea and the Alps. And this creates a contrast. It means every evening also in summer some cool air comes down from the Alps across the hills. And in the winter the cool air from the from the Alps is is met by the warm air from the from the Meditteranean. And this create also very special conditions. And it's only here because you have more places where uh you have uh mountains and sea below. I cannot really explain and maybe nobody can but it's a fact that this area has always produced olives more than wine. Olives is a sign that you have a very moderate climate otherwise you cannot have olives. And there have been always olives in this area. Only it stops north of Udine and north of Cividale. There you don't find any more olives because there stops because it's too cool. I remember being there in the spring and seeing the mix in Collio and Brda across the border, but really a shared wine region always. This mix on the hills of the grape vines, the olive trees, and the cherry trees in bloom in the spring. It's a beautiful site. It is beautiful and it also shows the the conditions of the area. So they always say that Coro and Ba are territory of wine and cherries because in fact as you say the cherry is very important. They have also each year in the Brda area they have the huge um party for the cherries in Višnjevik. It's always wonderful to go there and and meet people and uh sometimes you drink a lot of wine, maybe a little bit too much, but it's okay. 

  (RTB) So, let's talk a little bit about the different regions, maybe starting in Friuli and then going across the border into Slovenia down into Croatia. just take us through the map moving from the western part of the Italian region known as Friuli-Venezia Giulia moving across into Slovenia and down into Croatia. Can you just take us through some of these wine regions and tell us about some of the wines that are made there and what they taste like, what they're like? 

  (PB) One remark about the name Giulia that's special. The word Giulia is from the Roman word Iulii because Julius Cesar who was here 50 before Christ he founded the town of Cividale there's also a big statue for him and since that period the eastern part of Friuli up to Trieste and south into Istria is called the the area of the Giulia. So the the the part of Venice that is the area of the Giuli so it would be in Venezia Giulia and of course in Italian sounds much more beautiful. So that's Venezia Giuli. Um in fact you have uh different parts of the territory in Friuli. You have the flat part the plains and you have the hills. And here's something strange I would say because in Friuli many people think that the hills is the most important area and the flat planes are for the lower quality wines. And you see it because many of the lower priced wines and the the the the wines for big quantities and lower quality if they are produced in the flat area. But is it correct? I don't think it's correct because I think in the area of the Grave and also the Isonzo and even the Aquileia if you find the right spot and you work well you have conditions that are very similar to the top areas in Bordeaux and that's important and it means that um in such areas you can uh create very good wines and some of the producers are doing that and the point is that many of the wine grape varieties from Bordeaux and from France have been introduced in this area that has another region. What you see is that in the Grave area and also in Izonso there are some fantastic producers making great Refosco. Refosco del peduncolo rosso is one of the special typical wines of this area. It's a great acidity, but it gives great wines if you allow the wine to ripen. One of the producers in Isonzo last year he showed me he opens a bottle of 20 years old for me. That was fantastic. It was ribolla, no refosco del peduncolo rosso, 20 years old. Such wines are one of the main stay of this area and you can find it all over the area. uh west of Collio. Collio remains the most important area west of Collio. So you have the big plane of the Grave the Grave is uh an area with at least 8,000 hectares of vineyards with a lot of prosecco production a lot of ribolla gialla supmante production and as I said also some uh very interesting artisinal producers who make some really great stuff. Down near the coast, you have one area that is very special. That's called Aquileia. Do you know Aquileia? Have you been there? I have not. Oh, that's a pity. That's a big pity. You have to know that in the Roman Empire, Aquileia was one of the four most important towns of the Roman Empire. Why? Because here the Romans, they they founded this town 180 before Christ. And it was one of the most important towns until 500 after Christ. So it was very very long period important and it's you can find very interesting stuff there. You should go there and look what they find in fields and it's a wine area and they have the very famous Refosco di Scodovacca, which is special clone of the Refosco wine which is made in the area of the Aquileia. And I also find some producers one of them made some study in the United States too and he went back and now he produces one of the best Malvasias I tasted. He is a guy in Aquileia. Very interesting. And I like to uh point out these things because a region like Aquileia is not not very well known. Um people drive on the highway just go to Collio and don't stop in Aquileia. It's a pity. So I I would like to point out the jewels that you can find there. East of Aquileia you have the area of the Isonzo. Isonzo is the famous river. Maybe you know about a certain American writer called Hemingway. I indeed he was there and he wrote about the Isonzo in his book Farewell to Arms. Did you know that? 

  (RTB)That's wonderful. 

  (PB)The book is very interesting. Just before because of this uh this history actually Hemingway did not really fight in the war in the book something like that is suggested. It it does not matter at all. I think it's very important that he wrote this book and I think it's very important that this book gives us another insight especially separate from the history books because this book gives you a feeling of what the war was and what how the territory came and it gives an insight in very special part of the history of this region. So Hemingway did a good thing and Hemingway went back to Friuli also later and as I understand he remained very often in Lignano Sabbiadoro and there is even a statue for Hemingway in the park near the near the sea. in the east of Friuli you have two big hill regions. One is Collio and the other one is Colli Orientali and in Colli Orientali you can find so many lovely wines. fantastic producers, small producers, big producers, uh people with long family history, people who are totally dedicated to make the best of their small parcels that they can make. And it Colli Orientali is really a fantastic region. Did you know that? Yes. Yes. I've enjoyed many wines from from Colli Orientali. Absolutely. Yes. Have you been also in the area of the Ramandolo? 

  (RTB) So the trip that I took was pretty much exclusively right along the border in the the Italian Slovenian border in the region of Collio and Brda. 

  (PB) Yeah, it's logical because um what you see. In Bordeaux people go to Pauillac and Margaux in Baroolo—in Piemonte they go to Barolo, in Tuscany you go to Montalcino, and Friuli you go to Collio and Brda. That's something like normal it's logical because maybe the most prominent area of this whole area of North Adriatic is the area of Collio and Brda. What you have to tell about this region is that it's absolutely fantastic It's, as you already said, it's a wonderful region to see the climate and also the ambience of these soft rolling hills is really very beautiful. It's attractive and you want to return. It's romantic. And what you maybe have noticed is that in the parts of Slovenia, many wineries are still young wineries. They're still building up their company. They're building up their wines. They're building up their terroir. Many vineyards in that part are maintained in a way that is not seen anymore in Italy because they have only wood. It's more organic. It's more different in grape and it's is more untouched. So there's more unspoiled nature and that's I think very positive. 

  (RTB) I visited the cooperativa the cooperative in Brda. Was very impressed by the Klet Brda operation and also with the history of how now what is perhaps more more recognizable or valued in the wine world are individual labels and brands. But sometimes the history of a strong cooperative can I've I'm learning give a consistency historically so that the the vineyards remain vineyards and there is an economy and the without being interrupted by other kinds of industrialization or these kinds of things.  Does that make sense in my understanding? 

  (PB) Yes not only that it was also not really a market economy. So there was no stress, there was no idea to to produce big quantities. It was very rural. There was no dedication to u quality or studies. It was um very old style and it remained very old style for a long period and that's to their benefit. Sometimes now it's changing and you see some of the vineyards in that part are now also treated in other way but still the the really the region works very authentic and the wines and the wines are great in that part.

  (RTB) I went out on my Brooklyn fire escape to tell you about this month's sponsor Culture Without Borders Language Collective. You might remember my interview with co-founder Lindsay Szper from season 1. Later in this episode, I'm gonna tell you about a free opportunity to improve your language skills.

  Let's talk a little bit moving into Istria, Croatia, and then this Kvarner region. 

  (PB) We should not leave out the region Vipava. Vipava is lovely. They call it the smiling valley. When they call it the smiling valley, it means there is something that gives you a good feeling. And that's my first impression when I go there. It is it feels good. It is an area with a lot of small local farmers. Many who are doing just on tiny plots of four or five hectares. They do their best to make some great stuff. And they do. They have some authentic grape varieties like the Zalen, the Klarnica and the Pinella. And they have a lot of other wines too. By the way, Pinot Noir and also Sauvignon Blanc go great in that area. And you have some very good top producers there. And apart from that, you can you have very very good restaurants in the area. It is very rural. So you are in a wine region you feel like you are in Austria 100 years ago and that's a special feeling. So that's about the Vipava. And Vipava is bordered on one time on one side on by the Alps on the other side by the high mountains of the Karst and then we enter the Karst. The Karst is very much a Slovenian speaking region except the town of Trieste. In Trieste it's a small minority and the whole area has not many vineyards because it's very tough to make wines in that area but the guys do who produce something make very authentic and great stuff of the local variety Vitovska and also Malvasia and also Teran. The Karst is also one of those areas you should go there take your time take a bicycle and Go visit some wineries with your bicycle and you will have a great time. Trieste is also interesting. Last year I visited Trieste and only 3 kilometers from the center of this very important town you have the first vineyards and there they told me that until 70 years ago the town of Trieste did have 1,500 hectares of vineyards and now there is maybe 10 or 12 left. It's all gone because people need to have space for their houses and some of the steep hills of Prosecco have also left because uh today it's too costly to produce wines on those places. Besides the word "prosecco," where is the word prosecco coming from? It's the small village near Trieste. This is called Prosek. It's called to the Count Prosek who started to make wine in that area because he was the local count and there is the that's the origin of the name, Prosek. 200 years ago the name Prosek was not a wine wasn't even a sparking wine the name prosek was one of the wines that were sold in Venice and in Venice they when you would go to a tavern in Venice in the 18th century they would sell you malvasia, ribbolla, or prosek. Those were the three important wines and they could be the same wine they only gave the name to something that was commercially available. So for example in the area of Collio for about a period of 200 years they produced the wine prosek, probably it was made by 10 or 12 different varieties from the local vineyards, but it was called prosek just because in Venice you can sell it. So prosek was a commercial name in the past and it be it's still now it's a commercial name and now because they use the name also for the grape variety the grape variety glera has become named also as prosecco, but the name was originally a place near Trieste. That's the whole story. 

  (RTB) That is fascinating. 

  (PB) It has to do with the the story or the history of this area because this area has a fantastic history. It's it's it was very cruel sometimes in the past, but it's very important to realize and to know it. And you want to know about Istria? 

  (RTB) Yes, I do. 

  (PB) Istria is divided into a very large big part in Croatia. And there is a smaller part in in Slovenia. In the part in Slovenia is also a very beautiful hill part. They have the same kind of soils like Collio but it's smaller. It's very much populated. So you have many houses just located near the vineyards a big town the time of Koper the biggest coastal town of Slovenia. And in Slovenia they have 1,800 hectares in a very tiny space. All of Istria is about 3,000 hectares of vineyards. But when you will see the map you would not believe it because Croatian part is looking much bigger and uh it has to do with the fact that the part of Slovenia is very intensely used for vineyards. Also there you have a very big cooperative that is not yet not anymore a cooperative but still has very dominant position in the area and you have some very good local producers and the main wines there are the refosk [refosco] and the malvazija [malvasia]. Maybe just one word about the malvasia grape. Malvasi is the name of a grape variety you hear from everywhere from you hear from Tuscany there's Malvasia there are at least four different varieties called Malvasia that you can find in Piemonte. Two of them are red. Then you have Malvasia in Umbria. You have Malvasia in Calabria. You have Malvasia on the islands near Sicily. In totally they say that maybe there are 80 different types of grapes that grow Malvasia. It's a big confusion. This is what you call confusion. And the Malvasia from this part is called Malvasia. But it has nothing to do with all the other grapes. It's totally different. It they have also found the genetical basis and there also there is clearly no relation with the other grapes. So that's this Malvasia is original from this area. They don't know it's original from Trieste or from Istria from Collio. But the interesting thing is that you can find this grape variety all over the area. So you can go from far to Istria to three years to the Karst the Collio to Udine, Pordenone, the malvasia you find everywhere because this grape is one of the big main states of the area and it goes well everywhere is it known as malvasia istriana in Italy yes but it's there's not a strange thing it's still known like that people will know what you're talking about but in in Friuli they did not allow anymore to put it on the label and I That that only makes more confusion because people don't know that this grape is not identical to other malvasias. The name Malvasia would be better to identify the grape variety. Although we do not know exactly the origin of the grape. The first the first mention of the grape was in 1894 when one winery from Zagreb from Croatia got medal for some malvasia from Istria. It means that the grape has been produced for some time in Istria in that period. But we we knew that in that period there was no border and we know that grapes and and grapes and plants were always distributed over a wider area. So where is the real origin of this grape variety? I don't know and nobody knows. 

  (RTB) So it's hard to figure out exactly what the right name is, but we know that it's good. It's it's malvasia from this north Adriatic area and it's a delicious 

  (PB) It's a wonderful wine but not only from Istria also from Collio and also from Pordenone you can have wonderful wines from everywhere. 

  (RTB) So tell me more about the characteristics of the regions in Istria and then going down into Kvarner which I I would love to become more familiar with. 

  (PB) Istria is such a territory when you go there you have to make your agenda plain because you never know when you're going to leave because it's so wonderful. This area is really it's I think it should compete with Tuscany because maybe it's even more beautiful. It is very authentic. It has wonderful places, great wines and so great to be there. So Istria is one of the most wonderful places of Europe. We can say that without any doubt. The area is divided from north to south. You have the the the coastal area and the coastal area has many beautiful Venetian towns like Poreč especially Rovinj. Rovinj is is a jew-el! It's it's a town that is one of the most beautiful places that you can see and all these towns were in the past also wine centers still now important. You have the big agricultural institute which was founded in the time by by the emperor from Vienna because it was all Austria one time. Istria has this characteristics. So the the the the coastal area of Istria, of course, it's very touristic right now, but still very beautiful. Has also a lot of vineyards. It's it's alternation of vineyards and small villages with this beautiful church stops and then some olive vineyards uh olive yards and then to the east slowly it goes up and in the east you have one mountain about 1,400 m and you have quite mountainous region there and it's very strange to know that the most cold place the coldest place Croatia in winter is in central Istria. It's not in the east near Hungary or so. No, it's here because here it can be very freezing. So at the coast it can be minus one and in interior it can be minus 10 and still now you have always climate different but the best wines of are on the higher parts. So you you have to take the road from Poreč or Rovinj you go to the east and it goes very slowly. So it goes it takes 10, 20, 30 kilometers to to go to a higher place. Um very gradually and this area is so wonderful and here you have also some of the best wines from the north. 

  (RTB) This region of Kvarner. 

  (PB) Yes. But Kvarner. is a totally different story. By the way, nobody knows even that there is any wine at all because it's more known for tourism. The corner area is one of the first places for development of tourism in the in Europe. The first hotel for tourists was built in the corner. Nobody knows this. That was because it was all Austria. And in the past, I think in the 17th and 18th century, the richest family from Austria, from Vienna, they were of course aristocrats, the counts and the princes. They built some houses near the town of Plavje and that became a place where they started to live part of the winter when it was very cold in Vienna and here it's very moderate moderates and um so that is the first kind of development of tourism. Then during the 19th century there came a new kind of rich people in the Hapsburg Empire. There the were the people who had industry, the rich merchants from Vienna but also from Prague and other places and they wanted that those people go to another place because they should not interfere with the princes and the counts in the aristicot. For that reason they built hotels on the island of Krk and that was the start of the tourism and it was the start of the wine industry. Still now on that island of Krk you which is a small island you can drive around in maybe two hours I don't know it has more than 4,000 hectares of vienyards.They're huge. and most of these vineyards are abandoned you have to go in this this the center and it's a karst area because it is geologically speaking it's part of the Karst region so the stones and the walls from the Karst you find over here. Many of the vineyards in the central part of Krk are all walled. So they they are about 100 square meters or 200 square meters maybe sometimes one acre or two acres or three acres and then they are all walled with the local stones and you find huge fields of these stone walls with vineyards and nobody's using them because it's too expensive for commercial production. But the wine is there. You can go there and pick up the grapes when you want. Of course, it will be September when the grapes are maturing. But there for anybody who wants to pick some grapes in the nature, you can go there. And 4,000 hectares is really a lot. This is very big.

  (RTB) So who is left making wine in Kvarner today? 

  (PB) You have about 200 hectares on the island Krk near the town of Vrbnik and they make a very special wine of the local grape Žlahtina. Žlahtina is one of the most refined white wines you can find. It's it's elegant. It's it's light. It's it's a party wine. You will enjoy it. You should try it. It is it's it's not heavy at all. It's just so light and so so easy drinkable. It's really very very wonderful wine. You have an also another found—one of the most important findings for me really a gem that I think is will become important in the future is local grape from an island on the western part of Kvarner. So when you see the the Kvarner area you can see that inside the bay you have some very large islands. One of them is Cres and the other one is Lošinj. Mali Lošinj and and Veli Lošinj or Lussino in the Italian language. And there to the left you see two small islands and the most western island is a sandy island of 200 hectares. It's in fact a sandy field in the sea and that was the in the past the most important Venetian port of this area. It was so the the old structure of the Venetians is still left there and the Venetians have built vineyards all over that that island with a local grape and that local grape is called Sansigot and I think this grape it can give so wonderful wines. It is one of the most important discoveries that I have done recently. I think this wine will be a future new nebbiolo or pinot noir, something like that. So that's very big word. That's wonderful. I had never heard of that before. Yes, I can't wait to find one and try it. We have done some tastings and some of the local wineries now are giving a lot of attention to this grape and there are now coming in. follow this grape and uh in the next few years we will have some more producers coming out with great wines. It is going to be very interesting. (RTB) Let's talk some more about grapes starting maybe with some of the red grapes of this general region from from anywhere. We talked about refosco. Can you tell me about some of the qualities of wines made from refosco? 

  (PB) The refosco is a big family. you have several types of refosco and already the fact that it's a big family and that you have several clones several or typologies of this grape variety means that it's authentic in this area. It's very tannic and it has a very high acidity but has a lot of character. So it has a very cool mouthfeel and when well made you can have a very long lasting wine that leaves you a a long lasting impression and that's wonderful. The only thing is when it's young it's too aggressive. So the wine needs time to mature and to harmonize and then it can be a very long [lived] wine and it can age for for 20 years or 30 years. The only problem is that is not yet that much discovered. We know Cabernet Sauvignon that is very much discovered in the world and Nebbiolo from Piemonte. But refosco should be more discovered, I think. 

  (RTB) I completely agree. I I have a very pleasant memory during my my trip to Collio where the conditions there um in the hills are very nice for the white wines. I went to lunch in Cormons. It was a beautiful day and I had a glass of refosco with my lunch and I I just find it to have so much character.

  (PB) It is a wonderful character. Yes. 

  (RTB) There's another red grape that we haven't talked about yet which 

  is more of a less tannic a little bit lighter red that I like a lot. Schioppettino. 

  (PB) Schioppettino. That is a very typical grape. Schioppettino is mostly planted in the eastern hills of Friuli and there is also a Slovenian name for it. Not sure if you know that it's Pokalca. It means that the grape variety is already very old and it was all always placed in that area. The bunches are very big. They can become 40 cm top down and that's very big and that was the reason that many serious wine producers thought that this this grape cannot be serious. I think the answer is in drinking the wine. The the wine can be marvelous and this grape is really getting serious now and you have especially in the Prepotto area in the eastern part of the Colli Orientali you have a small side where they, where they have a lot of Schioppettino and there this grape really grows very well. It has this very special peppery character. It can be a bit smooth but still with peppery small and refined tannins. So it's not very tannic but there is tannin and it remains, it keeps the wine also the possibility to to age and to be more wonderful wine and I also like those wines. I think the most important and the most serious wines are the wines that can age and uh Schioppettino is such a wine. So it has become really a main stay. Especially in the Prepotto area in the eastern part of Colli Orientali. I'm very sure that in the past Schioppettino was also present in Collio but uh unfortunately you won't find much left in Collio that's a pity. 

  (RTB) It has to me also this beautiful purple color. 

  (PB) The color can be quite uh quite dark and when you speak about purple color I would say let's speak about Pignolo. did you also taste Pignolo? 

  (RTB) I have tasted a Pignolo in my life. I don't I didn't taste one at any of the wine producers that I visited in Friuli [as of 2022]. 

  (PB) They say it's the Barolo from Friuli. Well, that's a bit exaggerated. But it's a very important wine and Pignolo has more austere character. It's very full body but also very tannic. It's it's more complete. So the schioppettino is a bit into this peppery character and but some people say the most important austere wine from Friuli is the Pignolo and I agree. In the past you had one producer he started to revive this variety he was near Buttrio in the Colli Orientali area it's the most warm part of Colli Orientali where the hills go down in the in the in the flat area he started to produce three different varieties of Pignolo and started to communicate with the world. And I remember that I one time had lunch with him and I never had such an impressive lunch like with this man. He was so passionate about the Pignolo grape and how important that was very very interesting. 

  (RTB) The white grape that people talk a lot about and that I really love. 

  (PB) By the way, two two minutes have passed. His name is Dorigo.  Doirgo was was that wine maker. Yes. 

  (RTB) I love it when I meet someone who is so passionate about sharing a natural product, a piece of history, a piece of culture with the world. Are there any other red grapes that we should speak about before moving into Ribolla Gialla and other white wine grapes? 

  (PB) We just spoke about the Sansigot and I think the Sansigot is not yet discovered. Many people in the don't know nothing about it but I think Sansigot is one of the most important grape varieties in the future of this area. So that's that's something yes there are some other important red grapes but they are in very planted in very tiny quantities. You have on the Karst you have the Teran which is variety from the refosco family. It's even more tannic and more aggressive with acidity and they say that it was already planted there since the Roman time. We don't know that. In the north of Friuli you have a small area where some producers still use to produce Sciaglin, Picolit Neri, Cordenossa, Fumat and other grape varieties that you never heard about and it's great because in this way these grape varieties still go go on to be produced and I think that's also important. 

  (RTB) Yes, I care about that a lot. 

  (PB) The world cannot be only Merlot and Chardonnay and Cabernet. 

  (RTB) Yes, even as some of those international grapes do find a long and wonderful home in this region.

  Let's keep talking about the indigenous grapes. Shall we switch to the white grapes? Shall we speak about the wonderful white variety ribolla gialla? 

  (PB) Ribolla gialla is treated as the [inaudible].

  It's typical of this area although there are several theories about how it originated here. I remember that one time they bombarded me with emails with documents from the 14th century from the Collio and the Brda area saying that there was sales of a vineyard with ribolla gialla and this proves that ribolla gialla already existed in in 1400. The point is that it's not possible because in that period people were never speaking about wine grapes and grape varieties they spoke about wines. And a wine is something different because in that period every wine was made from a vineyard and that vineayrd had made five was made of five or 10 or 20 different grape varieties. So the fact that the name was going around does not say nothing about grape variety. I think that the the origin of the ribolla gialla is the same like chardonnay. Chardonnay we know that it was created as a crossing in one of the monasteries in Burgundy and by the way the father of the grape variety chardonnay is also the father of the ribolla gialla. So they have the same father so they family and the other grape the other father they don't know they are still researching the genetics etc it's a very long search but I think it's very clear that the origin of the grape is in this area. It is a wonderful variety although I am not saying it's the best variety because that's something very different it's very typical in for example when you would talk about Collio or Brda or Colli Orientali or even Vipava. One of the most typical varieties of those areas is ribolla and in Slovenia they call it rebula but it's the same word. It has a very high acidity. It has full body and it can age wonderfully. It has not very strong aromas. It's not an aromatic variety which for me is one of the reason that I say it can also be very useful for blending. But you can have very good ribolla giallas that are fantastic and some of the most important producers of the area are really pointing on ribolla gialla. So it's an important variety because of that.  

  (RTB)It's very versatile. No? You...it's made into many different styles. 

  (PB) Of course, but you can also have a fantastic uh ribolla gialla spumante. I prefer ribolla spumante above prosecco much better. And that's that's my preference. You have very elegant light wines that you should drink on a terrace in the summer or with fresh fish. Then you have the more austere strong varieties of the the wine ribolla gialla aged sometimes aged also in wood and the wine goes and then you have the the orange wine movement but the orange wine movement is separate part. we should speak about it because what what happened in in certain way some producers in this area wanted to go back to the past read the books and heard the stories from their grandfathers about how they made wine in the past. In the past the people in this area did not have tanks with temperature control techniques in the cellar filter techniques etc. They were not existent. So what they did they made a wine in the in the cellar. Very often I have to tell you the wine was a blend of several grape varieties. That is what sometimes the producers forget to tell you. I think they should tell this because it's the truth. And nowadays we can make a wine of one grape. In the past it was not very useful. The producers like Gravner and Radikon started to age the wine not in barrels but in amphoras or in barrels. But not only age, they fermented the wine and produced the the white wine in the same way as a red wine. The white wine stayed in contact with the skins and matured in the same way as the red wine. What do you get? You get a totally different wine. And it means the wine has had more oxidation. So some of the perfumes of a white wine are left, are gone. But in the mouse you have more strong notations of orange, some fattiness, nuts, almonds, very strong taste and they can be almost a red wine. The critics of this wine say the wine is dead. And I have been sometimes present of discussions between producers in Collio. And that those discussions were very heavy and um some people that were friends are not friends anymore because the discussions about the wine style. It can happen. And they said your wine is dead. You had all the oxidation and everything that is nice in a wine has gone. And the other set: "It's the wine that your grandfather made too." And um then I I think the truth is in the middle. Uh I think the the area of Friuli and especially the two big producers Gravner and Radikon have done a very big thing which they could have created a movement that is now followed worldwide. Right now you find orange wines everywhere in Australia, South Africa, in United States maybe in Northern Europe you find them everywhere. Even in the Netherlands, some producers are making orange wines right now. And I'm very happy with the name orange wine because I'm Dutch and we in the Netherlands, we have this link with orange because our king is from Orange in France. So we we have our identity with "orange." So I like the the the name orange wine for the wine. 

  (RTB) I think about is how people do understand these places where orange wine was made all along in the country of Georgia. Now that orange wine is made everywhere that has become popular and a whole new color and style of wine. I love for people to discover that this area of the North Adriatic, Friuli, Northern Italy, Slovenia, Croatia was also an area where perhaps the technique was not as unbroken as in the country of Georgia, but where the orange wine style was indeed ancient and traditional and was rediscovered and brought back and really popularized around the world by these producers such as Gravner and Radikon. It's such an interesting story and I also find a lot of character as far as the people who initially perhaps in the wine critic wine industry who were skeptical of the return of this style. I think that if you're looking for what you would find in a white wine, you won't find it. Well, we could say it's apples to oranges perhaps. Although I like to remind people that just because the the name orange wine, it doesn't mean that there are any oranges inside. It is referring only to the color. So I think when you compare the orange wines to each other and you can especially see I think terroir a connection with the place in the sense of this wine making tradition going going back and to these people rediscovering the wine making techniques of their grandfathers which is something that I just find wonderful. There was one other type of wine that I hadn't heard of before I visited Brda and it was a type of wine not like a retsina but where they actually put some herbs inside to the barrel as it was aging and explained to me that this was traditional. Can you speak to that style? I found it to be very interesting. 

  (PB) I do not know much about this variety but I know that such very ancient techniques are very common in the Mediterranean wine area. So in um in many areas in the Mediterranean, you find kind of

  vines that are produced with with dried in grapes or herbs in the in the in the vine. It's in Greece. Greece is not far very far from this place. And as I told before, the town of Aquileia did have contact with Greece. It's common but I have to tell you it's not very common in Brda. So um no the in in Brda the there in fact there are two very important wine styles. There's a conventional wine style of fresh white wines and you have the orange wine style. 

  (RTB) What about the wines that some some grapes that are used to make the sweet wines? Should we speak a little bit about that? 

  (PB) There is one great variety that is absolutely outstanding and it is... but I find a big pity that the production has really gone down that's Picolit. Picolit is a grape variety that's originated in this area in Friuli probably in the Colli Orientali but they don't know exactly it could be also in the vineyards of Isonzo, they have very old vineyards in this area and the point is this wine is is the the the plant is ill because the plant never gives complete grapes bunches. They are always a bit loose. Some bunches don't—do not ripen, and so the plants have very low production. And the production of the remaining grapes is fantastic because they give an intensity of flavors and they give an elegance and perfume that is really very special. The the grape variety is called picolit and you'll find it in Brda in Collio in Colli Orientali and it's still there. There are still produces going on and some producers use it also as a dry version in a mostly in the blended variety. I've also found producers who made a dry white wine out of it. It it's it's still very interesting. The blended versions I think it's more interesting because the wine really gives something extra to another wine. So it makes the wine more productive. And then you have some sweet wines and the sweet wines are made with dried-in grapes from picolit. And they are among the best sweet wines in the world. They're really very very intense. They have an elegance. They have a freshness. They don't die. They never die. You can put the bottle in your cellar for 100 years. The wine remains. 

  (RTB) I love picolit. Yeah. What about verduzzo? 

  (PB) Verduzzo is another very interesting grape variety also authentical from this area and also here it's pity that the popularity is going down. The grape has a lot of character, a very thick skin which is very important to to keep it healthy and in fact it's it's very how do you say it does not get affected easily by illnesses. So it is very protected and it's more produced in north of uh of the Colli Orientali area but it was always present also uh in other parts of North Adriatic in Aquileia in the Karst in the Grave area and also sometimes in Veneto. It can also give very light frizzante wines with a light bubble and a light freshness and some some sweetness. But the most important person is the Ramondolo. Ramondolo is a famous wine made of dried-in grapes of verduzzo and only made from the steep hills near the town Ramondolo and Nimis one hour north of Udine is the most northern part of the whole wine region. It's very close to the Alps. It's just the hills are on the south mountains of the Alps and also there we see the decline because the production is really going down because uh there's one big problem the market for sweet wines worldwide is going down and that's a fact unfortunately it's a pity. I think it's so sad. 

  (RTB) It was something I myself didn't discover until I became a student of wines and really interested in it as soon as I learned about historic and precious process that is used to make what is called on an American wine list dessert wines. I was completely fascinated and of course tasted them and saw that I wish the market could will come to understand that a wine that is sweet of low quality maybe tasty but not you know something that you would get for under $10 perhaps is so very different from one of these wines that is made from dried grapes or late harvest or so many different ancient techniques. I I really hope that it becomes part of the dining experience for for people again. I have faith there's so many things that have been added and and discovered and rediscovered by consumers just in recent years. Orange wines among them that this could become something that people rediscover. I'd love to do more about it on the show as well. They're so precious and delicious and and fascinating and I want them to not die out for the tradition to continue with with the production so low because there's so little liquid left. It's something that's precious. It's a special occasion. It's something that you know maybe you don't drink every day, but hopefully you do drink it as part of your experience.

  All right, I'm back on my fire escape to tell you about how my interview with Lindsay Szper with Culture Without Borders in season 1, episode 8 and nine really changed my whole language learning game. Just hearing about Culture Without Borders' philosophy that the best way to learn language is through friendship helped me relax a little bit, which is really important. And it turns out, as I learned from Lindsay, people don't learn very well when they're feeling stressed out or put on the spot. Since that first conversation, I've been able to attend a number of Culture Without Borders gatherings, both online and in person, and I've met a lot of really nice people while improving my Spanish. Culture Without Borders is looking for more English-speaking Spanish learners to attend their free monthly online language exchange. So go to cwbcollective.com and sign up for their newsletter for more details on how to attend.

  Tell me about the soil in this region. What is special about the soil? 

  (PB) For understanding the soil of this region, it will be good to have a look at the map. One of the maps that we put in my book, uh if you take it, you will see in the east there are lines of mountains. They're the highest parts are dark brown and you can discover some very straight lines from the area north of Udine straight in a diagonal line across Collio, Vipava, until beyond Rijeka and down to Croatia. In some places when you go there you can really see the mountains because it's straight and it means there is a geological area that's completely top and and formed by the stones area of the Alps in the Karst both the Alps and the Karst and until from the part sea there was always the the sea that came and and created some erosion on the on the area where the water met the stones and that created a kind of area that's called Ponca. And ponca is one of the most wonderful soils that you can have for wine making. There is maybe no better soil. And the whole area from the north of Colli Orientali then Collio and Brda and then Vipava and then is made of ponca. There's also a small part near Trieste that's ponca in fact right the town of Trieste is built on ponca and the area around is karst. So it's a different geological situation and in the east south of Rijeka you have the town Novi Vinodolski in also there along the coast you can find spots with ponca. iI's the same soil you can find it's about 100 kilometers southeast is the same soil as Collio. So logically there the word vino is already in the name we know Vinodolski it means "hills wine." I is a very useful hill for wine because the the the soil is stony mineral and it's easy to break. You can take apart of the stones in your hands. You can break it in two. So it means that the grapes the rootstocks can go down in the soil and and get some water. They have lower production than in other places and the grapes get better. So it it is in short words one of the best conditions for high quality wines. 

  (RTB) I myself have crumbled a piece of ponca in my hands in Friuli and it was a lovely wine geology experience. Let's speak a bit—I I adore and champion indigenous grape varieties. It's what made me fall in love with the wide variety of Italy. But let's speak a little bit about the so-called international grapes which are French grapes that became international. Very popular planted all around the world and with good reason. They're great grape varieties. Certain varieties here have quite a long history. Merlot, Sauvignon Blanc, especially, Chardonnay. My understanding is that perhaps because of the ponca soil that they find a unique expression in this in this area. I often say to someone who is a fan of one of these wine varieties that they should try one from Friuli because there's a different sort of expression. Could you speak a little bit to that? 

  (PB) First you spoke about Merlot. You should know that Merlot is in Bordeaux area rather recent. The first official document about merlot in Bordeaux is about 1824. So it was registered as one of the official grapes in the registers of Bordeaux. Less than 50 years later you find merlot in many places in the north Adriatic. This means that after Bordeaux the first region in the world where merlot was grown is this area between Friuli, Istria and west Slovenia: the north Adriatic. So that's important. That's important. It it also means that merlot grows fantastic here and it's true. The moderate conditions here are a little bit different. Uh we are Collio and are more or less on the same latitude as border but the conditions are different. It's a bit warmer in merlot— in Bordeaux you have no olives but here you have that's an indication that it is a bit warmer. Um but merlot grows fantastically. In some places also cabernet grows fantastically. What you should know is that um this whole area was Austrian and what happened in 1850 they had the first big wine disease. It was 1850 was the oidium. Oidium came. There was no remedy. They did no not have a solution. 

  (RTB) Can you explain what uh what oidium is? 

  (PB) Oidium is a disease in the plant that arrives in hot summers especially in dry summers and it arrived for the first time in this area in 1850. I don't know how to describe the disease more clearly. It's it's like that. The point is that the the grapes and the the plants had no experience with the disease and also not the Austrians. So they they were in they were terrified because this area is the most important wine area for Austria. Austria was a big empire and the empire needs wine and if the most important and biggest wine region of the empire cannot make wine that's a problem. So that problem occurred and what did they think? um let's import some grapes, grape varieties from France because they make best wines. If we put them here, we can make grape wines too. So that's that is the reason that after 1850 grape varieties like merlot, cabernet sauvignon, sauvignon blanc, chardonnay, pinot noir, pinot blanc, and also sauvignonasse, were introduced in this area. So there you had the introduction of the French grapes. Actually they also tried nebbiolo and barbera and other grapes from Piemonte. They tried them and they found out they didn't didn't work so there's no nebbiolo left in the area but barbera is left in some parts of Collio you still can find barbera but they gave it another name it's called Negrus. So when you go to San Floriano you can ask them some they will not know about barbera but they will know about negrus and they could indicate where is the vineyard. 

  (RTB) You mentioned sauviognass. we should speak then about friulano, also known as sauvignon vert. This is the same same grape I understand? 

  (PB) Yes it's the same grape sauvignon vert and sauvignonasse is a grape that is known from bordeaux and Loire area in France in Bordeaux still now that people will say that it's not an interesting variety and even if it's maybe still somewhere present in that area also in the Loire. This is genetically is very close to the sauvignon blanc and in the wet it can sometimes look a little bit like sauvignon blanc and there's the problem. So it was not identified correctly or maybe the the the guy who brought the plans made a mistake. That's also possible. Anyway, the confusion started with the name. At a certain point in Collio and in the Friuli area, they thought, "Oh, this is another grape and gives good wine." And um it it it was really after 1920 that they started to realize that this grape is really doing well. And that's that's the interesting part because in Bordeaux they say that this grape is not interesting. And here in this area, the grape grows fantastically and gives some of the most important and dominant wines of this area. And that's very curious about the name. There was confusion. First, they thought it was coming from Tokaji because it could be also a bit sweet. And one of the counts who had some territory in the area of Collio, he came from from Hungary. But we know for sure that it was among the the grape varieties introduced from France in the years after 1850. So this more recent name confusion was it was called Tokai or Tocai Friulano and now re renamed as Friulano. Can you speak to that confusion a little more? Yes because it is known that the Tokaji is one of the most important wines from central Europe. it's from Hungary partly also in Slovakia but most important part is Hungary and in the European Union there is a kind of rule that the local names and the toponyms are dominant in wine name and the laws on wine names and when the Hungarians claimed the unique possibility to call their wine Tokaji and not the other wines, all the other producers and regions that use "tocai" for any wine should refrain from using Tokaji in the name. So in Alsace there was the use to call "pinto gris tokaji" just to enter the word which was a selling point. It didn't have any reason at all only selling point. In Italy more or less it was the same. And in Italy um there was the the confusion because in Italy and also in Slovenia by the way other in all all the places where the grape sauvignonasse was planted they were not allowed anymore to call it Tocai Friulano or Tocai Italico So they you should go to another name and then in the end in Friuli they call it Friulano, which is which is a problem because the other areas in Italy like Veneto or Emilia Romagna where the same grape is planted they cannot call it friulano– because it means the grape from Friuli which is really from France. No, it's it's legally by the region of Friuli. It's legally registered only in the region of Friuli. I am against this practice because I think it's not correct to register any grape in any region in the world because the use of grape varieties is uh allowed for everybody and registering the grape variety only for your territory is insane. It has no sense. Imagine what would happen when the France would claim the name Chardonnay for them. You could not produce Chardonnay in California. You cannot produce Chardonnay and you cannot produce it anywhere. What would happen? The world would be in big distress. The France and the France are not doing that because they are wiser. Unfortunately, they're wiser because they understand that you have to produce a wine and to sell the wine as part of the territory. And that's the basis of any wine communication in France. And I think it has to be the same in Italy. 

  (RTB)When there is Friuli grown in Emilia Romagna, what do they call it? 

  (PB) Well, in Emilia Romagna, I don't know exactly. 

  (RTB) I'm sorry, Friulano. 

  (PB) In the Veneto, they have started to call the grape variety Tai. So, it's called Tai. 

  (RTB) [Laughs] Great! 

  (PB) And that was the old dialect local name in the the cafe. They called it Tai. Also in Friuli in the past they said "my glass of tai." So it's only the resistance of an old local dialect in still at this moment in Slovenia they have also the problem they do not have many vine but they have the wine and it was authentical there historical there and there is no union

  between the wine growers so you can find these grapes many different names. 

  (RTB) So, let me get this straight. The grape is actually Sauvignoasse [aka] Sauvignon vert, green sauvignon from France, which didn't really do well there, but does well here for a long time in this region. For a while, it got called Tocai Friulano, just to ride on the coattails of the popularity of the Hungarian [wine] Tokaji. Hungary decided, no, you can't use that anymore. So what had been commonly called Tocai Friulano became called Friulano. But since that means "the grape from Friuli," there's some confusion about what to call it in the other places where it's also grown, like Slovenia and Emilia Romagna or Veneto. What does the wine taste like? Is it worth all the trouble? 

  (PB) I think so. I think so. The the wine is absolutely worth trouble because the wine is fantastic. It's one of the mainstays of this area. I think you cannot leave a winery or you cannot even go to Friuli without tasting Friulano because this is one of the most wonderful wines of the area. It has sometimes the producer goes to a more fresh style and goes with very easy tropical, apple style. Very often it's a bit more strong. It has more strong perfumes. It has this apricot, white peach, almond style of of of flavor and it can be very full bodied and can have a lot of alcohol can go above 14° sometimes. It has low acidity but it can be very tasty. It's it's really in the hands of some good good producers is one of the most important wines of Friuli. So a important one. Interesting thing is that the same confusion happened also in Chile. In Chile they had also the confusion because they had vineyards of sauvignonasse in the past they s thought it was sauvignon blanc. Now they found out it's different and now in Chile they didn't fuss about names they just call it sauvignonasse and I think that's the most right thing to do. (RTB)Just calling it sauvignonasse. I noticed that's what you're referring to it as. Yes. Wow. What a fascinating history. I think it's a great example of the how it's not so simple what these grapes are called and which grapes they are throughout history. I I find this to be a fascinating detective work. Thank you for explaining it so well. Are there any other important wines that we've left out from the North Adriatic? 

  (PB) I think we did pretty well. I think we did pretty well. You have a lot of grape varieties in freely in my book. You have seen chapter 7. I wrote about many varieties white and red. One of the wine varieties that I would like to stress still is the Pinot Blanc because I think the eastern part of Friuli gives one of the most interesting Pinot Blancs of the world. Yes. Pinot Blanc from Collio is one of world class especially in the hands of some top producers. Another thing is the the Glera I found out that Glera can be interesting and this is very strange because nobody even the best wine maker in Italy or worldwide. They know about wine etc. Nobody knows that you can make even an interesting wine of the grape variety that is used for prosecco. But you can. I found it! I went to Trieste and in near Trieste you have these old very old historical vines. This they're very historical and there are some old families still continuing to produce wine and they are very modest. No idea that their their wine is like it it in Paris it would be one of the most important wines from France. In London it would be one of the most important English wines. And here near Trieste they're doing something very modest. And then don't know what they have in their hands. So, one of these guys uh his name is oh I have 14 names. It will come up in some minutes. Andre Bowler is his name. He makes a full 100% Glera from this area. And this is also the original area where the glera is coming from. That's what you said. The name prosecco comes from this place. This is the origin of prosecco. Prosecco, and glera, is from that part. And this glera wine was very interesting. It was a wonderful wine. I didn't know. It was a big surprise for me. I had no idea that glera can be so good. It's made into a dry wine. I mean, a still a still wine. A still wine. Just a still dry wine just like ribolla gialla. It was not far from real ribolla gialla. 

  (RTB) So interesting. I would love to try that. Paul, this this project, this Modo di Bere project is about wine and local drinks, yes, but also about language and about my perhaps romantic conception that the local language could be considered the part of the terroir or at least that local words, local sayings, local dialects tell the same story about culture as we can find in a glass of wine. I actually want to read a quote from your from your book from early in your book. "Can a territory talk? Can vineyards talk or hills, rootstocks, vines, vineyards, cellars, houses?" I wanted to ask you a little bit about the linguistic biodiversity of, diversity of this region, but also of this idea of a wine glass speaking or how— these messages about culture I feel are as important to your life as they are to mine. So I wanted to ask you about your question about what things speaking to us hearing these messages from wine and from language. 

  (PB) There's a lot to say about this. So now we have to to have give me these two hours. Anytime. The first thing that I want to say is that wine grows in a territory. Wine grows in a place and wine is always part of a context. So wine is always part of some history or some culture and has to do something with the territory around. So you cannot only talk about wine and grapes how say how it's made and how many years in the wood and then taste it and enjoy it. No. Wine is also part of the culture and the language and the history of one territory. And that is especially also the case with the wines of this this area. And that's one of the things I I think um when you drink a wine from this area, you drink history and that's fantastic. So the history of this area which is also in part described in the book of Hemingway in his book Farewell to Arms the history of this area is very typical and in every wine it comes back. In the Ribolla Gialla that is called Rebula in Slovenia, Schioppettino that's called Pokalca in Slovenia, in the Pinot Blanc that's called Pinot, Beli, in Slovenia etc. And it means this is a multicultural society because in any— that was also the typical thing in the Austrian empire, everybody could speak his own language. There was no thing like dominance of one language. No, if you have your own language in your village, you just continue. Only the mayor of the village, he has to speak German and the the government has to speak German and the rest of the area doesn't speak German. So it was not even necessary to speak German even if they were in a German empire and it meant that the local languages continue. Friulano, very strange, is an older language than Italian. Italian is a rather recent language based on the Tuscan variant of Italian and created also because Italy became a nation in 1861 but the Friulano is based on the old vulgar Latin of the third or fourth century after Christ. So, it's much older and Friulano is also officially recognized as a local language. But go to page, page number 15 in my book and look how many languages are spoken in this area. So it's Italian, it's Friulan in Friuli which is a neo Latin language, it's Slovenian, it's antique Slovenian. And also that's for example, it's fantastic to see that Slovenian is one of the many Slavic languages and Slavic language you speak right from the border east of northeast Italy until Vladivostok [in eastern Russia] in a big part of the the the whole continent. It's all Slavic languages, but there are many different ones. And Slovenian is related to Russian and and Serbian, etc. But old Slovenian, they say, is more close to Russian. And old Slovenian is not spoken anymore in Slovenia itself. But in Italy, yes, near Cividale, you'll find an area in the mountains where they still speak old Slovenian. Nobody knows it. This is fascinating. So German was the most important language in the part passed and has uh left and then go to Istria. In Istria there are two main languages it's Croatian and Italian and there that there are also sad histories to tell about the the people that have to had to left were kicked out of the country in the past. But still many native Italian speakers live in Italy. Many people who have as first language Italian or at least an Italian dialect live in Istria. And they found out that many villages in like Buje, Vižinada, Poreč, Verteneglio, etc, Umago, they have all their local variety of an old dialect of the 16th, 18th century area of Vicenza near Venice and they were all slightly different and now they have a project in Istria they're going to protect these languages and beside you have also the Istrian dialect and you have also a small area where they speak Romanian old Romanian that's not spoken in Romania anymore only by some very old families in Istria. Very curious. I read in your book that the Istro-Romanian people are considered by I'm quoting considered by UNESCO to be the smallest ethnic group in Europe. Yes. If you consider the language as the base for ethnic group, then it's the smallest probably. Yes. Because the language is dying out. I'm so interested in these neo-Latin dialects that that you're mentioning. That's so interesting. There are different neo-Latin dialects or languages. Rhaeto Roman which is spoken in small parts of Switzerland is quite close to Friulian. It's also a neo Latin language. They say that in the north of Italy there are more places where they speak local dialects that are in fact based on old Latin with some influences from France etc. It could be that they're also kind of neo Latin dialect. 

  (RTB) We're of course talking about several different countries here with in a region that has long had multiethnic, multicultural identity, but I'm curious about from place to place generally speaking the use of what Italian speakers often call dialect. You might, you know, speak Italian with other Italians from other regions or during business, but then at home or with your friends, you're speaking a local language. So how how strong in these various areas are the use of a local language in your experience as a traveler and a scholar of these matters? 

  (PB) I think in wine areas uh local people have a very strong local identity that you see in Piemonte where I lived and uh you can see it also in Friuli but also in Brda. The Brda is a local dialect of Slovenian and it's different from Slovenian. I don't understand Slovenian. So I cannot make the difference between Brda Slovenian and the real Slovenian, but they tell me that there is different. And then you go to Collio and there you have the the problem of the not the problem but the fact that part of the inhabitants of Collio speak Slovenian at home. So there's a Slovenian minority in Italy. is still very strong. It's one of the reasons that the the official language on the label of prosecco can eventually also be Slovenian. So it's technically possible you have a Prosecco DOC wine and on the back label you have it in Slovenian language. The point about Slovenian language prosecco label is the point that the prosecco wine DOC prosecco I'm not speaking about DOCG prosecco because this that's a very limited area especially the Valdobbiadene is very limited so we are speaking out the general prosecco do you see wine that can be produced in Veneto and Friuli and they included all wine in Veneto and all wine yards in Friuli so you can make it in a very large area the point is that in one part of this area a very small tiny part that's the eastern hills of Friuli near the border with Slovenia there you have people who are speaking Slovenian minor minority in theory they can produce also the prosecco they will not do it probably because the vineyards of Colli you will not use for making prosecco they they use it to [?] plant but in theory they can do it and that's the reason that legally they have to allow the possibility in the law that a back label of a wine prosecco can be put in Slovenian because it is possible there there will be a Slovenian speaking producer. In theory. In practice it will not happen very often but it can be happen in theory.

  (RTB) Can we talk a little bit about other cultural products from this region? Perhaps this Prosciutto di San Daniele, different agricultural products or artistic crafts like furniture. 

  (PB) You speak about furniture in Italy, you have to speak about Friuli because one of the most important areas of producing chairs in Europe in the past was Friuli. When you go to Manzano, there were very big factories. There's very little left of it, but it was the chair producing region of Europe and it has to do with the fact that wood is easy to obtain from the Alps. It's close. You have a lot of good people working with their hands and handcraft making high quality handcraft products. And now all these products like chairs and and furniture are more mechanized. And that means that much of production has left the that's pity but still a part of it has remained in the are still some great producers of handcraft works with with wood like wine wine boxes for example but also check you still find them in Friuli. When you speak about ham and prosciutto is the Italian word for ham, you have to tell the world that this is the area for producing ham. There's no other region in the world where ham is so important. In Istria in the Karst in hills around Trieste in hills around Cormons and Collio we have so many artisanal production of um prosciutto and the prosciutto di San Daniele is one great example and here I always say that Italians they are artist because they have so great sensibility for finding to the right conditions and exploring and maximizing the right conditions to make a for fantastic product and that's they have done in San Daniele very interesting to see that the the air stream from the Alps passes along the hills San Daniele is sit a little bit higher not on a hill not far from the Alps so they have they are profiting from the airstream and the exchange of cold and warm air in the area around of course there was always the maiale, the production of dried meat for ham and they used to mature the ham on the ceilings on the on the open air parts of the the buildings that the ham could mature in a natural way and there's no place where they do it better although today San Daniele is produced in in big factories where the the condition of the air cycling are are produced by machines not by the open air. So that has changed. But the same ham production you find also near Cormons. There's a very famous producer of ham near Cormons. He's called Osvaldo. And every producer in the area of Cormons, they'll always tell you you have to go to Osvaldo. You cannot leave this area before you go to Osvaldo. That's the culture of the area. When you go to the Karst or to Trieste or to Istria, they produce you with the the the ham from the Karst or the ham from Istria. It's local. It's typical. 

  (RTB) Tell me about the cheese. 

  (PB) There are so many. 

  (RTB) What's your favorite? One of my favorites is the uh what they call Jamar. Jamar is the Slovenian word or the Slavic word for cave. And in the caves in the car area above Trieste they have the jamar cheese which matured in these conditions is very humid condition in these caves and this gives this cheese a very special taste and very special specialty. Then you have the Tolminc. Tolminc you have always every winery in in Brda and and Vipava always will offer you a part of tolminc cheese and also in Collio. You have the Montazio which is from the northern alps. Montazio is also a delicious cheese. 

  (RTB) When a person is visiting the north Adriatic besides touring wineries, what other what other activities can people do as they're traveling? What are some places that you have to see that you can't miss? 

  (PB) You cannot miss Trieste. Trieste is absolutely very interesting town with this accent of of the huge culture history that you still find in the town. It's still very multicultural. It's kind of Vienna but put at the sea and the big big place of of of Trieste is totally open to the sea and this is wonderful. Uh you cannot miss Gorizia. Gorizia is very typical Austrian town but it's now in Italy and Gorizia has still this old center which I like very much. Please notice that Gorizia and Nova Gorica together will be Europe European capital for culture in 2025. So in two years the towns Gorizia and Nova Gorica will be together the capital for culture. So it will they will be center for culture in Europe. So they will be world famous. So we are going to reach and see more of this. Uh when you go to the north coat of Cividale, Cividale is absolutely one of the most interesting towns in Italy. Cividale has old cellars of 300 before Christ just near the center just near the old Roman bridge. They have the statue of Cesar, Julius Caesar who was found in the town and they have the old one of the oldest churches in Europe that's still visible and Il Tempietto Longobardo of the 8th century is part of it even two centuries before very very old country. When you want to see something special we have also to go to Aquieleia which is culturally extremely important and also Grado is an island on the coast before Aquileia it's 20 kilometers from Aquileia uh it's it is the southern part of the laguna also here Friuli has some lagunas just like Venice the only thing is that Grado is older than Venice the whole world talks about Venice but Grado is older and Grado has some very old findings and some very old statues and the old church is I think sixth century where do you find a church that is still visible and totally totally correct it's it's sixth century the only place that I know is Poreč that's in Istria they have also such things. These towns along the coast south of Trieste you have a long list of towns they are wonderful. It starts with Koper then you have Izola, Piran then you have Umag, in Croatia, Poreč, Rovinj, and then Pula and deep deep south of Istria. All these towns have so rich history beautiful old Venetian centers wonderful to visit. By the way something interesting for a tourist would be to do the Alpe Adria tour. There is it's called the Alpe Adria trail. It starts somewhere in Austria or maybe in Germany. I don't know exactly. It stops somewhere in Istria in the south. And it goes along all these historical places through the vineyards through the mountains. You can do it by foot. You can do it by by car. You can do it by bicycle. And there are people from all over the world coming there and doing the Alpe Adria trail and visiting this part of the north Adriatic. Of course they all go there and drink the great wines. 

  (RTB) It sounds like a dream. 

  (PB) It is a dream. 

  (RTB) What about in terms of enjoying the outdoors? 

  (PB) Then you have to go to Slovenia. Slovenian people are very sporty. So you can do a lot of climbing in the mountains. You can do rafting on the Isonzo River. Uh you can also kayak in the sea. And you can go to Trieste. Very interesting. Near Trieste, you have a canyon that's going east from Trieste into this very strong hill sector of the Karst mountains. And this is a canyon that is totally uninhabited by people. It's totally nature is a natural area. And there you have the lowest alpine refuge in the world. It's about 70 meters above sea level because you can do several days of hiking in the nature over there and yes when you are hiking several days you need a place to stay the night. That's the reason they put a refuge. 

  (RTB) What about fishing? That's one of my favorite things to do. I remember being told there was great fly fishing in Brda. 

  (PB) Oh in Brda you cannot do fishing because there are no rivers. You can do fishing in the Isonzo. I do not know exactly how many fish you can find but there will be some some trout very probably yes there are some rivers but some of the rivers are rain rivers so they're big part of the of the year they are drying so there's nothing. 

  (RTB) I read something in your book about a good place for fishing. 

  (PB) I would absolutely go to the lagunas near Grado and there you should go fishing and there you will find fish. Of course, it is where the the big Isonzo and the other rivers come down in the in the in the sea. You have still a low amount of water, 2 m deep for large area. You have—it's it's it's a mixed and and salt water. So, it's special condition. You have a fantastic fishing there. 

  (RTB) Paul, how many languages do you speak? 

  I try to speak a little bit with English. You can notice that my English is not without mistakes. My Italian is also not without mistakes. The same with Spanish, the same with Dutch, the same with German and French. And those languages I do speak I can communicate in those languages and I try to learn also a bit Slavic. 

  (RTB) I still, I would still say that I speak an English that is not without mistakes and and that's my native language. So I think that's a lot of languages to speak with or without mistakes. I really like to talk about idioms and local sayings in this project. I think they also tell a story about culture. I wonder if you have a saying that comes to mind from from the North Adriatic or from from Dutch or from any other languages that that you like to speak. 

  (PB) Well, there's one that I know, but it's not from the north Adriatic, it is from Piemonte. It is: "Quando arriva la minestra, non c'e più sinistra e destra." And it means when the soup is arriving, minestra means soup. There's no political left and right because everybody's eating. Oh, I love this. That's a wonderful That's a wonderful saying. It's easy. "Quando arriva la minestra, non c'e più sinistra e destra." 

  (RTB) That's fantastic. That's fantastic. Paul, thank you so much. This was a fantastic interview. I learned so much and I I really hope that everybody goes and and gets this book, this book, your book, North Adriatic by Paul Balke. Where can people order and buy this book from you? 

  (PB) Actually, I I've been speaking with several publishing houses in the US. I we did not yet find an agreement. So, I'm still looking for a solution there. I'm going on Amazon, but going myself on Amazon is not the best option. Sure. So, I looking for an option. In any case, everybody can send me an email. You find me on my website paulbalke.com and you can get the book sent to you. I send an invoice and the book will arrive at your home. This is a very interesting part of Italy and as we talk about Italy, you easily go around the borders and you've been in the north side and there is interest in the US. I know that. 

  (RTB) So if you want the book, you can order it from Paul directly at paulbalke.com. You can send him an email. I really recommend that you get it. It's it's quite a beautiful book. It reminds me of an older generation of travel and wine books. What in the past you might call a coffee table book just full of such beautiful pictures. But what I think is missing from that description is the deep scholarship and analysis and insight. So, you know, I I think it's so much more interesting than a more blandly designed sort of travel guide. It's it's really a tribute and a deep deep research study and also a a delightful read about the north Adriatic including Friuli-Venezia Giulia, West Slovenia, Istria and Kvarner. Paul. Thank you so much for your work. I'm really glad that you are out there doing this. 

  (PB) Thank you very much. I was great talking with you and you have a great dedication. 

  (RTB) Thank you. I think we are interested in some of the same things. I believe we realized this immediately when we when we met in the Micromega tent at the Vinitaly Wine Fair in Italy. I can't wait to see you again in person, Paul. I know you travel all over the world. I hope to see you in New York. I hope to see you give some kind of presentation, but in the meantime, thank you so much for coming on this podcast. 

  (PB) I've never been in New York, so I really would love to come there. I would love. 

  (RTB) Oh my goodness, what a shame. You've traveled so widely. I hope to welcome you soon. 

  (PB) It's true. It's really a shame. I really would like to come. Yes. 

  (RTB) Listen, I just think we're all so lucky to have heard this interview with Paul. And I want to say thank you to all of our listeners, to all of our supporters wherever you go and whatever you like to drink. Always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Support us on Patreon. Grab the newsletter at mododibere.com and subscribe to the YouTube channel at mododibere to watch the travel show Modo di Bere TV. Music for the show was composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou. Purchase their music at the link in the notes.

Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: www.oumusic.bandcamp.com

Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister

Audio and video edited by Giulia Àlvarez-Katz

Audio assistance by Steve Silverstein