▷S1E8 “What I Need is a Friend”: Lindsay Szper of Culture Without Borders (Part 1)

English

Apr 21

Lindsay Szper and her pals believe the best way to learn language is through friendship. Modo di Bere agrees! Lindsay is a language teacher and a language learner by vocation. She’s studying language pedagogy at The New School and working on a masters in Oral History at Columbia. In this deep, funny, sweet and smart interview, Lindsay tells Rose Thomas about the community-based language school she started with her friends. She also shares stories about her remarkably multilingual grandparents, the playground "exam" for the language Lindsay invented as a child, and tons of incredibly encouraging advice for acquiring--no, developing!--new language skills. Stay tuned for the second part of the interview!

To find out more about Culture Without Borders and to learn about their events in the New York City Area, you can get in touch with Lindsay at cwblanguagecollective@gmail.com.

This is the book Lindsay mentioned: Rethinking Oral History and Tradition by Nepia Mahuika
Here is a YouTube video featuring the language scholar Dianne Larson Freeman, and a paper that she wrote about language learning
One of the friends Lindsay mentions, Reina, advises studying language through media about a topic that is fun for you. Reina is a small business owner in New York City, check out Reina's Cleaning Services LLC.

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What do you actually need to speak English if you feel like you're not getting there now? And she responded. She said, "What I need is a friend." She said, "My daughter speaks Spanish. My work is in Spanish. My friends and family speak Spanish. I need a friend. How am I going to learn if I don't have somebody to talk to?" Welcome to Modo di Bere, The podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. Today's conversation is with Lindsay Szper, an oral historian and co -founder of the Culture Without Borders Language Collective, an alternative community language school that believes the greatest tool for learning language is through friendship. I was so interested to hear about Lindsay's second language research project as well, which is an investigation into the real methods that adult language learners use to learn new languages. Lindsay grew up in Southern California as a member of a remarkably lingual family. As you know, Modo di Bere is interested in idiomatic phrases, slang, so -called dialect, and the stories that these pieces of language can tell us about human culture. I expect we'll focus more on the language side today, and I can't wait to hear all about culture without borders, but I'd like to start by asking about a local drink of any type, not just wine, not just alcohol, that you may have encountered in your childhood or on your travels? - So you gave me a heads up on this question and first I was gonna answer a very boring answer that my favorite drink is seltzer water, which I suppose is actually a pretty New York local drink. I've never lived in a place where seltzer is so common as it is in New York but I think a more interesting answer is that my grandparents were from Eastern Europe, my dad's mom was from Lithuania and my dad's dad was from Poland and one specific thing about them that is that they had they would always drink their warm drinks out of or not always but they would often drink warm drinks out of clear glass mugs and it was that was not a thing that I really remarked on until I got older and I went over to a friend of a friend's house who was I think they're Russian or Asetian and they also drink all their hot drinks out of clear glass mugs and so I don't know I just I found that remarkable I remember my grandpa who was a funny round man with a very thick Polish accent and I have very few memories of him because he best when I was five. But I remember him drinking coffee out of clear glass mugs. And I have my brother and I have, when we cleaned out my grandparents house, we each kept one of them. So every time I pull it out, I think of my brother and my grandpa. That's lovely. Thank you so much for sharing that. That's really cool. You mentioned so many different languages sort of in your family history. Can you tell me some of the different languages that and parents spoke? - Yeah, sure. I grew up in a monolingual household. So my parents, well, I grew up in an English speaking household. My dad knows some languages, but generally at home we spoke English. My dad's parents were extensively multilingual. So my dad's, I don't even remember. I can't even give you the full list, but my dad's dad spoke 11 languages. - Wow. - The ones that come to mind now are Polish, Yiddish, English, Spanish, French, Swedish. Oh goodness. German. A handful of other things. My grandmother spoke also Swedish, Polish, Lithuanian, English. What else? What else? What else? A whole host of things. Really a whole host of things. Russian. They each spoke Russian, but in my immediate family we spoke English at home and I kind of grew up thinking that people from Europe were just very multilingual and then as I got older it became clear that the reason my grandparents spoke so many languages on one hand of course was because they were good at it and on the other hand was because of the historical moment they were born into, they were Jewish and they survived the Holocaust and so their movement around the planet, right, is, of course they had interest in language, but they also learned out of necessity and as a result of the political situations that their countries were in when they were grown up. - Did you become interested in language as a child because of learning about that history or did your interest in languages come to you later on? - For me, language was an always thing. And I can't imagine that it doesn't have to do with my grandparents. I think they're, I mean, first of all, just the fact that they, I'm an English teacher now. I'm studying to become an English teacher and we're starting a language school. But I think I've thought a lot recently about the fact that the fact that my grandparents spoke an unusual version of English, I think really normalized for me the fact that people who learn English as a second language can communicate themselves fully and richly in a way that's different from the standard. But I think I'm not answering your question. I think language was an always thing for me. Like when I was in the second grade, my friends and I made up a language called Paparuga. we would host a little language lessons on the playground, giving people evaluations on how they were doing. - Oh, that's marvelous. I was going to ask you about some encounters with idiomatic phrases or proverbs from your family experience that were funny or just memorable, but I have to ask you, do you remember any paparuga? - Oh my goodness. - I do, I do, it was that in order to greet people, you had to make this really specific sound and you had to say pop out. And if people couldn't make that sound, they weren't able to pass the language exam. They had to keep taking it and taking it at recess until they could say that. - That is brilliant and absolutely adorable. I'm so glad you shared that story with us. - I didn't answer your question. It's funny, maybe in oral history interviews the way that they tend to go is that they're like winding and all over the place so I feel myself doing that but your original question was about where the interest in language came from and if it came from my grandparents and I think the answer is absolutely I think just my brother talks about their house we made a movie about it and he talks about how their house was like a museum and it's so it so was especially my grandfather's things He was an international lawyer in Poland. And then when he came here, he did various different jobs. I think my grandma said he worked in a pharmacy that I'm not entirely sure. And ultimately, he ended up working as a social worker, helping other refugee families to get their papers and get the things that they needed to be citizens. And as tokens of appreciation for the work that he had done with them, people would give him a lot of things. so you would be in their house, we have videos of it, my brother and I took some videos as we were cleaning the place up and it's sort of similar to your house, it's like you can travel all over the world just in one bookshelf of theirs or they just had all these trinkets from all over the place that weren't, they weren't meaningless trinkets that you pick up off for example the street of the Brooklyn Street economy, it was like these objects from people from all over that had been specifically gifted to them. And my grandparents, my grandmother, I didn't know my grandfather well, but she had a wonderful memory for details. And so she could tell you where each of these things, each of these objects came from. - Sounds like a marvelous place. - Yeah, that's a cool place. - Wow, with tremendous people. I would love to see some of those videos sometime. Did you produce anything or share them anywhere Or was it just kind of for your own family, the movie you made with your brother? I hadn't originally planned to do anything with it. I'm very new to this whole landscape of media and art production. I was working in personal injury law and medical interpreting for the last four or five years. But I took a workshop class, an oral history workshop class, and that's what we made the movie for. My hope is to, I don't know, it's a pipe dream. We'll see if it happens. But my hope is to, I built some language learning resources around it, you know, some little activities that people can watch our video and then practice translation, answer some conversation questions. So my hope is to eventually lead workshops, language workshops with that as a text that people can learn from and hopefully further out once I'm more comfortable with production and know a little bit more what I'm doing or connect with people who know what they're um, to put on some sort of workshop where people who are learning language can make their own audiovisual, um, autobiographical essay just out of their own conversations, 'cause it's our video is Jay and myself, that's my brother's name, it's us talking about our, my grandparents, um, overlaid with videos of the house, and I'm, I'm an amateur. If I can do that, somebody else can do that, so my hope is to make, um, to eventually make a workshop where people learn language and practice language and translation through that process of producing a piece of media that's personally meaningful to them. Well, we love, we love pipe dreams and amateurs here at, at, um, at Motardee Berry. In fact, as I was looking at some of the materials for the language school that you co -founded, I love the way that you talk about second language learners as, as experts and you're calling them experts, which I thought was really beautiful. Maybe you could just tell us, introduce a little more about Culture Without Borders and the Second Language Research Project. - Sure, thank you, and thank you so much for asking and giving me an opportunity to talk about these things and articulate them. Culture Without Borders Language Collective is a community initiative, or it's a thing that I got started with some friends, many of whom were students and an ESL class I was teaching at the time. The way I tell the story is that my friend Ruth was acing my class. She was getting all A's on these tests, these formal assessments that the community center I was teaching was telling me to put out. And yet at the same time she was telling me like I don't feel like I speak English. And so I asked her, I was like, what do you need? You're acing my class. You're getting A's on all these tests. What do You actually need to speak English if you feel like you're not getting there now. And she responded. She said, "What I need is a friend." She said, "My daughter speaks Spanish. My work is in Spanish. My friends and family speak Spanish. I need a friend. How am I going to learn if I don't have somebody to talk to?" And as a person who's been a language learner, who is a language learner, I feel like she hit the nail on the head. But I think When I think about what has helped me learn language, what helps people learn language, it's relationships. And I think we try to teach so often in conventional language teaching, we're in a classroom getting ready, getting ready, getting ready for interactions with real life people. But the classroom environment is so specific that all that work, so much of the work that people are putting into language learning in a classroom really doesn't transfer in real life because the conditions are so different. And so our goal, we've done a handful of things. We're still getting organized, but there's people believe in us and people who are part of the group have started talking about it like a thing that really exists and that's exciting. But what have we done. Our first event was a potluck in Central Park. We went to the bronx zoo in 2021 and just did a little multilingual get together to learn about animals. I'm thinking what else, what other fun things have we done? This upcoming month, we're having a billiards day. One of my friends is really interested in billiards, so she's teaching that bilingually. And this one I'm very excited about is that in March we're having a friend is studying oral history in order to improve the representation of indigenous peoples of Latin America and another friend is from what's now Guatemala and speaks an indigenous language from their Kiche and another friend studies museum anthropology and decolonization in museums and so together that group and maybe others are going to lead a trip to the Met to look at an exhibit about Mayan art, divinity in Mayan art, so that's cool. That sounds amazing. And you asked about the second language research project as well. I mean, you described it far more concisely than I would have, and I think beautifully, but basically the idea is interviewing people who've had success in learning second languages in order to figure out what worked and I think, and what didn't, just to leverage the lived experience of people who've done the thing to make the process better for people who are actively doing the thing. I think so many people are really discouraged when they're trying to learn a new language, they feel alone and like the task is impossible. And my hope is that by interviewing people who've done it, those who feel discouraged will A, recognize that this is possible, all kinds of people do it and B, feel alone in, in the struggle and the work to translate yourself to a whole other cultural code. The second language research project is also part of your work for your master's degree program in oral history at Columbia, right? So I think the concept of when you said that you were doing oral history, I just found that really interesting. So tell us a little bit about what your experience has been with the concept of oral history or what drew you to this field. Thanks for asking. You primed me for this question too but as I was coming over here on the subway I'm like how the heck am I going to answer that? Oral history is such a watery thing. I think part of the official narrative of oral history or the way that the oral history program got started at Columbia University was at a man named, this is my understanding, that a man named Alan Nevins, shortly after the tape recorder came into existence, decided that he was gonna interview people who were generally conventionally successful about their life experience, their life history, and that they were gonna save these long form recordings. Oral history is sort of like, oral history in the sense of Alan Nevins, as I understand it, is kind of long form life interview that's kept in an institutional archive and preserved for the future for posterity. But the field is so cool for a trillion reasons, one of them being it's very critical of itself and very self -aware. And so that's one version of oral history is Alan Nevins, his life histories and Columbia University Oral History Archives. But there's also the thing runs so much deeper. You could consider indigenous tradition and history -keeping tradition, oral history. You could consider the work of griots in, I think it's West Africa and those musicians and cultural knowledge keepers. You could consider that oral history or in reality, I think I have a friend who's a Spanish professor and she has this awesome association of interesting, thoughtful people. And they recently, in an online event they were putting on, talked about cultural studies as a field. To me, I think, and as I understand cultural studies, it's like the interaction of human culture with everything. That term, to me, I think cultural studies in a way encapsulates oral history because for me I think oral history is like the it's the transmission of culture right it's storytelling and cultural transmission there's this um I'm talking in circles but there's an indigenous oral historian of mayor I'm not pronouncing it correctly I don't think Nogati Poru the Nogati Poru tribe of what I think is now New Zealand and he talks about he wrote this really kind of groundbreaking oral history book recently about how academia has pushed indigenous thinking on oral tradition outside of its boundaries, and he talks about how memory is held for, and I don't want to speak for him, I don't want to misspeak for him, he has a wonderful book, it's called Rethinking Oral History and Tradition, but he talks about how for his, For his people, for the group he belongs to, memory is in so much more than just recordings. Like an oral, like he talks about mnemonic devices and just the people, I think this is probably interesting to you though I'm not articulating it particularly clearly, but he talks about and a lot of indigenous thinkers talk about connection to land and the way that landmarks people keep their historical cultural knowledge alive through stories about the land that their people have learned over years to survive in. So that's a very watery, windy answer. But for me, I think oral history is culture and storytelling and knowledge production, also collaborative knowledge production. Now, in this day and age, where we do have tape recorders, we do have recording, there's this beautiful kind of ethical framework that the oral history community has worked to come up with, where in the people involved in an encounter are both authors of the literature, like the spontaneous literature, I don't know who I'm taking that phrase from, but they're both authors of the product that it's a shared collaborative process of producing and disseminating knowledge and culture? - Yes, I love to think about when, you know, just coming cold to the term, I feel it evokes either some transmission of culture that predates or doesn't use the written word or something that began after the invention of the tape recorder. So that's a pretty wide, wide swath of time. Yeah, definitely what you said about stories about the land is a big part of this project and the story about culture that you can find from a glass of wine, for instance, and also from these little pieces of slang, proverbs, idiom, dialect, and to tell kind of a story about, I found a similar delight in these two areas that I felt moved to look for more connections between the two. So thank you so much for being a part of that. I feel like my professional work and connections lately have been much more in wine, where the language interest has been what I considered more of a hobby, but maybe that's not such an important distinction as I've been talking to you. I've spent a lot of time on both pursuits and they clearly impact one another enough that I decided to start a podcast about it. Coming back to your character position of adult language learners as the experts on their experience, I wanted to turn around one particular question that I know you use in your second language research project back to you and just say, are there any particular stories that you would like to share about your experience learning languages and what languages did you speak? And I would love particularly for you to speak to something you mentioned about your grandparents English as well, which I think might speak to this concept I found in the materials you sent me about the culture without borders. I was really intrigued by this phrase, the differences between bilingualism and proficiency. And I think even now I'm thinking of a moment where I will have arrived at full fluency. And it seems like maybe you have some different ideas about how to think about that. And there was, I just asked you seven questions in one, pick up anywhere you would like. - Awesome, awesome. Thank you for asking me this question. They told us in school, one of the first things they told us in the history fieldwork class was that if you're going to interview people about something that's relevant to your own life, you'd best get interviewed about that thing. So I really appreciate the question. I'll start with the question I remember, which is, what's the last thing you asked me? Oh, well, I want to, let's say there's two questions. I want to talk, I want to hear from you about the difference between bilingualism and proficiency. Maybe we'll start there and then we'll get back to your own experience learning language. - That's perfect, thank you. Bilingualism and proficiency. So I asked people this question because I have a very, I have kind of an answer in mind, and I wonder if it tracks with other people's experience. For me, proficiency means being able to get your point across and being able to practically exist in a language and get your practical needs met. Whereas bilingualism has more to do for me with the translation of self, like a capacity to express yourself, a real authentic version of yourself in a different code. And from my perspective, I think a lot of conventional language teaching focuses on proficiency. And I think that's because a lot of conventional language teaching is compulsory education and workplace readiness training. I think a lot of the ways that we're taught to interact with people across languages are transactional. And I think that's not just for English speakers learning Spanish, for example, who vary early on. And this is practical. You need to know how to do this. But who vary early on are taught how to order something in a restaurant, how to ask the price for something, just how to do very basic transactional things. Or if I look at what people tend to be studying or what people were studying in the class I was teaching for beginners, beginner learners of English that are learning, and again, these are practical necessary skills, but they're learning about how to prepare for a job interview, how to, you know, what vocabulary you need in order to run to new apartment. And granted, those are important things to know how to do, but I personally think the emphasis on these sort of transactional modes of interaction is misplaced. I think it's, I think what people are going for, and I can't speak for people, I can speak for myself, what I'm going for when I'm learning a new language is to be able to express myself, to be able to make, make someone else who's sitting in front of me and listening to me understand who I am as a human being. And I think language is patterns whether you're talking about I want to buy an apartment or rent an apartment or you're talking about you know here's my family history and here's what matters to me you're still using nouns verbs adjectives whatever tenses pronouns objects you're still using all the same things and I think there's an argument to be made I'm talking a lot thank you for listening there's an argument to be made for teaching practical skills of course But I think there's a stronger argument to be made for offering people structures and vocabularies that allow them to communicate them themselves, because A) that's more rewarding, B) that's more personally relevant, and C) once you know how to make meaning using the patterns and basic vocabulary of a language, you can apply all those patterns that you've learned through interesting, meaningful, self -directed communication to renting an apartment and you can learn the vocabulary is much more easy to learn independently I think than other aspects of language so why not learn the patterns doing something that's personally interesting and that helps you to do the tremendous and creative and inexact task of taking yourself that exists in a certain cultural context that exists in a certain vocabulary in a certain grammatical universe. And taking that self and literally translating it to translate, I think, etymologically means to carry over. How does a person carry over their self, you know, across into a whole different context and code? I think that's bilingualism. And I think proficiency is a kind of shallow or like, it's like a stepping stone to bilingualism, but it's been interesting because as I ask other people what bilingualism means, they have a totally different understanding than me. That's so interesting. It seems like with your definition of proficiency and the transactional phrases that were taught when we're studying towards proficiency seem to all involve talking to strangers, right? And I'm thinking of the friend you described who said, "What I really need is a friend. That's how I would really learn." And thinking about her, maybe she could go out and rent an apartment, but then would go home and the only people to whom she would talk about her life, she wouldn't be doing that in the transactional language. She would be doing that in the first language in that it would be through, like you've been saying with your, with this beautiful project that, that you're starting, people learning through friendship. I just love this concept so much. I've definitely found it to play out in my life, which if I can just share my experience listeners of this podcast, we'll be able to hear me also speak Italian. I've also studied Spanish as well. And For Italian, the moment that I can point to, the practice that I can point to that moved my, I think what you would call bilingualism forward more than anything else, was a conversation partner, a weekly conversation partner. It felt something like having a pen pal. It was at the beginning of the COVID lockdown. and I was working that time with Italian wine producers who would often come over for visits. And I would love to practice my Italian with them, but with no one traveling, I made some complaints about how on social media, about how my language skills would not be able to move forward. And I was introduced through mutual friends to this wonderful woman, Terry, who is a Canadian and she's married to an Italian and speaks both languages in her family. And she was very excited to have someone to speak English with. And she also teaches English, so she was very patient about explaining grammatical concepts to me. And we would just talk about our lives and what we were cooking a lot. And my subsequent trip to Italy after having pretty regular weekly calls with this friend for, you know, at least a year, a year and a half. I was shocked at how much better I, how much more easily speaking Italian and comprehending it came to me, whether those exchanges were with friends or strangers. So yeah, so I think that I believe in your theories and I have seen them play out in my life. So you speak Spanish, you studied Spanish and French in like your undergrad college experience. Yeah, tell me a little bit about your language acquisition. Now these words are sounding cold, you're getting me to think of all of this in a new way, but what was your language, your learning experience? Yeah, absolutely. Funny you should say acquisition. There's a movement right now or that's there's this woman named Diane Larson Freeman who works in University of Michigan and she has a beautiful mind. She talks about she's been in the field of second language teaching for decades. She talks about how we ought to move away from the term second language acquisition because a language is a slippery thing that's constantly evolving. It's a complex dynamic system that never stops changing and that it's best to-- her suggestion is to use the word development, second language development, because development is an ongoing, endless process that never stops. But now, oh, talk about my experience learning languages. I mean, I was lucky. I had my grandparents and their existence and their multilingualism, I think, made multilingualism feel very possible to me in a way that it doesn't necessarily feel possible or attainable to people who grew up in a monolingual house. And I'm sure I gravitated toward language because they did language in the same way that people often gravitate towards what their parents do for a living or what their family has done. But I was lucky in kindergarten. I started learning Spanish in kindergarten. I went to a small private school, K -12, and their language program promised us that if we stayed at this school and we participated in their Spanish program. By the 10th grade we would be fluent in Spanish and they delivered. I mean we started in kindergarten. I had fun, wonderful, lovely, encouraging teachers who for 45 minutes basically every school day would just talk to us and do fun stuff in Spanish. I was interested in it anyway and I think it came naturally. But what worked for me I think from that program was that for goodness, what's 10th grade plus kindergarten for 11 years, I was in a continuous program where the instructors knew exactly what page we were on in the textbook from the start of every school year. So it was a very continuous program where they little by little piece by piece helped us understand how the language worked and gave us the necessary vocabulary. But that took 10, it took 11 years, right? So it was extremely effective for me, but it took 10 years. And I think most, I think a lot of people, I might venture to say most people don't have 10 years to learn a second language. They're here and they have to know now. So I felt a bit, torn isn't the word, but I do recognize that my experience as a language learner worked and was wonderful, lovely, and enriching, but I think, I think it's not the route for everybody. So I learned Spanish that way. I learned French. I started taking French instead of a free period in high school and then I got to go to this one month French immersion summer camp when I was in about the 11th grade where they were pretty strict about it. They didn't let you call your parents except like certain times of of day, all English language materials contraband. You couldn't have an iPod if it had any English on it. And we learned quick by a week into it. I think I went into that with one semester of elementary French and by the end, I guess I was more or less bilingual, at least proficient. That's French. What else? I've studied other things. I studied Russian, I studied German, I studied Portuguese. My grandma tried to teach me German, but it ended up being me going to her house every day for a summer and her speaking at me in German and me just saying, yeah, Grossmutter, nine Grossmutter. What else? The project for right now is American Sign Language. A friend of mine is from Columbia originally, or I think he might've been born here, but he has roots in Columbia and he's been back and forth in his life. So he knows Colombian sign language, American sign language, English and Spanish. No, he's working on Russian and Russian sign language. He's unbelievable, but all that to say, he's helping me with sign language. Sign language is fascinating. Oh my God. That's so inspiring and cool that, that you've been able to follow in the footsteps of your family and have interested so many uh, modes of, of cultural expression. I'm wondering for anyone who's thinking, wow, that's amazing for you. I'm just trying to learn one language and I'm feeling very intimidated. Um, I do love though that you, you gave two examples from your own life, one, which was a very long term and one, which was really fast. And they both achieved something for you in, in terms of proficiency, your experience with the school versus the short term. Camp, I wonder if anyone is just feeling a bit discouraged, what can you share from your research to date that can encourage someone with a sense of possibility? Would you encourage people to, instead of thinking of some vague, I'll be able to speak this language like a native and then I will have arrived versus maybe a more specific goal for themselves? That's a beautiful question. And that's, that's well That's well noted that in my own experience, I've done the thing in more than one way. I think the biggest thing right now that I feel motivated to communicate to people is that there is no one way to do this. There's no one way to learn a language. In fact, that woman I was telling you about, Diane Larson Freeman, who I think has a beautiful and complex and interesting mind, has done some really interesting technical studies on people's trajectory and language learning and when you graph individual people's learning on like a line graph, visually you can see represented that each person's journey is different. Each student is focusing on what's interesting to them, what's natural for them, what's relevant for them and the way that education is structured and so many of our formal educational settings is on a Rigid one -size -fits -all timeline. So I think number one you can do this however you want and Especially for people learning English. I think this is true This is true at least for all the languages that I've studied that they're in the age of the internet There's a vast media landscape really in any language that you're interested in but English especially my goodness for better or for worse The media landscape of English is so vast you can learn about anything that interests you in English. And so I think first of all, find something interesting. My friend, I think it's okay to say this too. Her name's Reina, my friend Reina. What she emphatically tells people is like, find something fun. Find something that you actually genuinely find fun. It doesn't matter if you don't understand the thing you're watching 100%. Pick a topic you're interested in, go on YouTube and spend five minutes, even if it's just five minutes, learning about something that you know is interesting to you and seeing what you can pick up on. So I think remembering that there's no one right way to do this. There's many ways to learn the languages that are people and then some. Finding things that are fun and genuinely interesting to you as a person. Giving it time every day. You've just heard the first part of my interview with Lindsay Spear of the Culture Without Borders Language Collective. I will put links to all of Lindsay's references in the notes for the episode. Thank you so much for listening. If you're enjoying the show, please tell a friend, spread the word, tell people about the podcast. If you're a student of Italian, you can also listen to these interviews side by side, the English and Italian versions, as on language learning tool, wherever you go, and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. grow, support Motodiberia on Patreon, and unlock bonus episodes. Find out more at motodiberia .com, where you can also read the blog. Music for the podcast was composed by Ercilia Prosperi and performed by the band OU. You can purchase their recordings at oumusic .bandcamp .com. Dejándose llevar por otro, se engañándose, déjase para ese mismo.