# Modo di Bere > Podcast, magazine & travel show about wine and language. Public Ghost content for AI and LLM tooling. This file includes a bounded export of public pages first, then recent public posts. Append `.md` to any post or page URL to get the content in Markdown (for example, `/example-post.md`). ## Pages ### An award-winning project URL: https://www.mododibere.com/about/ Last updated: 2026-08-16T01:08:20.000Z ## about local culture through drinks and dialect After talking to a *lot* of Italian farmers, wine writer Rose Thomas Bannister realized Italy has as many “dialects” as it has local grapes. **Modo di Bere expands *terroir***—a wine’s sense of place—to include the local language. Our [Podcast](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/), [Magazine](https://www.mododibere.com/tag/magazine/) and [Travel Show](https://www.mododibere.com/travel-show/) connect **biodiversity** and **linguistic variety**, in Italy and beyond, through local drinks and local sayings. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Ghost-Header-Logo-Modo-Di-Bere-V13-TRANSPARENT-1.png) **"Way of drinking."* A pun on the Italian word for a **saying:* “modo di dire." [Unlock your Modo di Bere membership!](#/portal/signup) “Bannister tells stories about wine through an artful, almost lyrical lens.” **—Wine Enthusiast Magazine** “ugh I love your page always and seeing my culture being talked about and platformed is amazing!!!” **—Mila from TikTok** “Smart, funny, and endlessly curious.” **—Michaele Weissman, author, “The Rye Bread Marriage" and “God in a Cup”** \-Wine Enthusiast [Future Forty](https://www.wineenthusiast.com/future-40/?ref=mododibere.com) (2025) \-Released 75+ Episodes of the Modo di Bere Podcast, in [English](https://www.mododibere.com/tag/podcast-english/) and [Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/tag/podcast-italiano/) \-Filmed 9 seasons of [Modo di Bere TV](https://www.mododibere.com/travel-show/) \-Reaching 6K+ fans who love learning about local culture Collaborators: **Emilia Aghamirzai,** Creative Partner, Modo di Bere TV **Michele Thomas,** Editor, Modo di Bere Magazine **Giulia Àlvarez-Katz,** Video Editor / Associate Producer [Media Kit](https://canva.link/wm5psx1lha85ed4?ref=mododibere.com) Contact: rosethomas@mododibere.com ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Modo-di-Bere-Logo-by-Lillian-Schrag.png) Logo by [Lillian Schrag](https://www.lillianschrag.com/?ref=mododibere.com) ### Podcasts URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/ Last updated: 2026-08-13T22:34:28.000Z _No content available._ ### Magazine URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/ Last updated: 2026-08-13T21:48:45.000Z _No content available._ ### Modo di Bere TV URL: https://www.mododibere.com/travel-show/ Last updated: 2026-08-13T22:18:57.000Z _No content available._ ### Wine Club URL: https://www.mododibere.com/wine-club/ Last updated: 2026-08-13T22:10:59.000Z _No content available._ ### Travel Guides URL: https://www.mododibere.com/travel-guides/ Last updated: 2026-08-13T21:54:57.000Z _No content available._ ### Events URL: https://www.mododibere.com/events/ Last updated: 2026-08-13T21:55:13.000Z _No content available._ ### "Products" URL: https://www.mododibere.com/actions/ Last updated: 2026-08-15T19:09:54.000Z ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/PARTY-POP-TRANSPARENT.png) #### Events Wine and language adventures! ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/PLANE-TRANSPARENT.png) #### Travel Guides To Italy and beyond! ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/HEART-TRANSPARENT.png) #### Become a Member Learn and taste EVERYTHING ### banner-header URL: https://www.mododibere.com/banner-header/ Last updated: 2026-10-03T14:55:20.000Z Wine Doc Face Off $775 raised so far Help us finish Season One! 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Now YOU DECIDE which region will become Season One of Modo di Bere TV. Massive thanks to Paul Balke, Lola Pedro of Pedro's Ògógóró, everyone at Amabile di Rosa, the zillion winemakers (and one linguist) who made us feel so at home in the North Adriatic, and Bature, the only craft brewery in Nigeria. We honor the memory of Emilio Bulfon, a savior of rare indigenous wine grapes who sadly passed away a few months after we filmed an interview with him in 2024\. Modo di Bere TV isn't out yet, but that can change with your help! Donate to our crowdfund for post-production at [ko-fi.com/mododibere](http://ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) to Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Kokosy did the music for the [North Adriatic Trailer](https://youtu.be/ORkUeZw3Qrg?si=ViN7d%5FE5dMuBVYbq&ref=mododibere.com) "Yolanda" by Ambrose Campbell is the song for the [Nigeria Trailer](https://youtu.be/FIboRgo733M?si=SvXAMaplX2CUYQdg&ref=mododibere.com) Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister in collaboration with Emilia Aghamirzai and Giulia Àlvarez-Katz Audio and video edited by Giulia Àlvarez-Katz and Rose Thomas Bannister ### Cut Your Bangs & Dance URL: https://www.mododibere.com/events/cut-your-bangs-dance/ Last updated: 2026-10-07T14:13:36.000Z **Thurs, Oct 8** **7-9 pm** **Lost Foundry Hair Salon** **87 5th Ave, Brooklyn** It's a wine tasting at a hair salon! It's a dance party with wine! Cut your bangs for Modo di Bere TV — or simply raise a glass with Rose Thomas and Emilia, the women behind the wine and language travel show [Modo di Bere TV](https://www.mododibere.com/travel-show/modo-di-bere-tv-trailer/?utm%5Fsource=luma). Featuring Bob Bannister as DJ — yes, the source of the record collection you see as the background for the podcast! ....and art by Nigerian artist [Doba Afolabi!!!](https://www.instagram.com/diartporainc/?ref=mododibere.com) [Click here to RSVP](https://luma.com/3zl5ovgr?ref=mododibere.com) The event is Pay-What-You-Wish — via donation to the crowdfund for Modo di Bere TV. [Support the Crowdfund!](https://www.ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) Drinks selected by Rose Thomas Hair by Reina Goodrich DJ Bob Bannister See you soon! 🍷✈️🎥 [Cut your Bangs and Dance for Modo di Bere TV · LumaA party for a wine show, in a hair salon? YES! There will be wine and language. There will be dancing. You can cut your bangs for a good cause: Help us finish…![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/icon/favicon-904d479f-2e11-476f-b46d-38f3f23e09b5.png)Rose Thomas Bannister![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/thumbnail/3663a983-e078-47b5-aa46-67d10120c5c6-2418154b-66fc-4b94-b8eb-4949cafb0410.jpg)](https://luma.com/3zl5ovgr?ref=mododibere.com) ### Nigeria Still Calls My Name URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/nigeria-still-calls-my-name/ Last updated: 2026-10-10T16:54:04.000Z [Monai McCullough](https://www.instagram.com/treesofnigeria/?ref=mododibere.com) shares the journey that brought her to Nigeria, where she recovers the original names of indigenous trees. Sense of Place highlights the eight regions featured in the forthcoming travel show Modo di Bere TV. Click here to support the crowdfund to finish and release the show. [Support Modo di Bere TV!](https://www.ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) You can vote for the North Adriatic region to become Season One of the show until 11:59 am New York time on Saturday, November 10\. --- While learning Yoruba in Badagry, meeting people with rich stories and straightforward lives, I ask myself again and again, "What is in a name?" When my American accent trips people up here, they shorten their names for me. I decline the easy version, and ask again. What is in a name? Ancestors you never met. A tribe, a village working for your future. A spirit waiting to be noticed, and seen. In Nigeria, I call the tree’s names,through understanding their ecology and spirituality. What happens when you hear your name in life, or in death? What happens when you hear your name in love? ## Plants Became My Sense of Place Africa is my third continent, and still I get the same question: What brings you here? A strong ancestral pull. Yet I never saw my life here — not even back in Amsterdam. My first solo trip, I backpacked through Cuba, St. Lucia, and my homeland of Martinique. The Caribbean was my first place of refuge, and each trip led me back toward West Africa — the Afro-Latina Spanish of Matanzas, the dark skin, the heritage of the islands. Diaspora was a language I longed for before I knew its taste. Amsterdam came next. I built a business, a community, fell hopelessly in love. It offered stability, but after several years I longed for something different. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/10/Monai-McCullough-in-Amsterdam--2018.jpg) Monai in Amsterdam, 2017 My first trip to Nigeria, with my love, was a rebirth. I saw my humanity in all its flaws the same way I had growing up in South Jamaica, Queens — the concrete, the hawkers, the noise. Queens was an identity beyond the color of my skin, but there was something painful and special about being asked, "Are you Nigerian?" "Yes," I'd answer, technically. “A long time ago.” (Pause.) “I'm from NYC.” ## Does a rose grow from concrete or is it nut grass? My first introduction to plants was my grandmother: always something growing at "nana's house." My second was my first apartment in NYC, one houseplant becoming many. I moved to Brooklyn and volunteered at a vertical farming lab, thinking: if I could learn, I could grow food for everyone. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/10/Monai-Planthood.jpg) Monai's old apartment in NYC Plants became my sense of place. In Nigeria and Benin State, [I research trees and agroforestry](https://www.guestartistsspace.com/News/monai-mccullough-explores-ecological-research-and-plant-knowledge-at-the-gas-farm-house?ref=mododibere.com) — the magic of trees, the shade, the structure, and most importantly the roots. My roots are in Nigeria, too, entwined in the past that was taken from me before I was even a thought. My return isn’t a gift, but it is a love letter: to people, heritage, language, and futures. When I first arrived in Nigeria, I was fascinated by how people carry their history and culture in a name or a facial feature. My own recognition had been more immediate: centered around which parent I looked like most. My name is Monai McCullough, I was born to Mark and Patric. ## Trees of Nigeria I ask of the trees, "Who are they?" Not in the Latin renaming that made them inaccessible to their own people, but through sound. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/10/Monai-Picking-Fruit-byFelix-Michael.jpg) Monai picking fruit (by Felix Michael) Yoruba, a tonal language, reflects how people, plants, and animals are called: what you hear when you listen to their spirit's sound. Trees carry different uses across regions and tribes. Their preservation has kept their people healthy, cured, and tuned into the earth. To return land to people, they must first remember the land that was taken. I speak with elders and herbalists, needing to translate the medicine at the market, what it is — or rather, to listen deeply, because translation often falls short. ## Orógbó Ogun State, 2026\. Field notes: The sun climbed steadily overhead, the trail grew steeper, and for ten minutes we pushed through cassava towering more than eight feet above us. Then, through the vegetation, the Orógbó tree appeared. We first saw it from a distance, but up close only its immense trunk could be taken in. I paused and asked the tree for permission before collecting a small peel of its bark. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/10/Monai-and-the-touching-the-Orogbo--Felix-Michael-.jpg) Calling the Orógbó by its name (by Felix Michael) Not to be confused with Obi Abata, the Orógbó or bitter kola orógbó is associated with blessings, longevity, hospitality, and Òrìṣà traditions, connected specifically with Ṣàngó. Orógbó: its name is remembered in the story of Moremi Ajasoro, the heroine of Ile-Ife who sacrificed her only son, Olúorógbó (Lord of the Bitter Kola) after saving her people from invading “forest people” forces. Whether or not the boy’s name directly references the tree, the association is difficult to ignore. Like Moremi, orógbó is a symbol of life, endurance, prayer, and continuity, making it a namesake for a child whose sacrifice became one of the most enduring stories in Yoruba history. ## A Certified Tree Worshipper Mr. Lateef is a certified babalawo and 5th Generation herbalist, a tree worshipper, and the foundation of our Ogun State fieldwork. I asked around the farmhouse grounds for someone who can “show me the trees.” “Like celestial trees?” “Yes, I guess.” 48 hours later, I met Mr. Lateef in his home: in his shrine. He spoke no English, and me no Yoruba. After a short negotiation, I handed him a list of 21 trees I was looking to document and learn about. Two days later, we set off on a trek that changed my life. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/10/-TK-is-this-Mr-Lateef--.png) Mr. Lateef, a Yoruba diviner priest We documented over 67 trees spirits. After 4 hours of hiking, I jumped on the back of his okada, passing standing shadows of mud houses. We went to see an old friend of his: Asofeyeje, known for its neuropsychiatric powers. We laughed, sat, drank [ògógóró](https://punchdrink.com/articles/pedros-ogogoro-history-nigeria/?ref=mododibere.com), smoked, and enjoyed each other's company for hours. I was later invited to his Oracle ceremony, sat with his kin, and documented how plant spirits are used to talk to the gods. As much as people use and document Mr Lateef's work for research, no one else has asked him to do what we did together, to walk the way his father did with him, the way his grandfather did with his father. It was Mr. Lateef's joy and excitement as we entered his world in the mountains, visited his shrines — even his father’s burial site — that will stay with me forever. ## Lagos, I Love You I risked it all. 14 years and a day. Nigeria punishes queer love harshly. Same-sex unions, public displays of affection, and aiding LGBTQ+ relationships can carry decades in prison or even violent death. These laws, rooted in colonial morality and reinforced post-independence, are part of the social fabric. British colonial rule criminalized same-sex love, embedded patriarchy, and enforced rigid moral hierarchies. Post-independence governments retained these laws, sometimes intensifying moral policing as authority and control. I quit my job and followed love to Lagos anyway. They were my whole world, my best friend, someone I wanted to see thrive. Lagos hit me like lightning—electrifying, chaotic, familiar, and unfamiliar all at once. Although my hands are for the soil, I am a city girl at heart. I thrive in the concrete, in the movement, in the energy. I thought I understood Lagos through books, stories, and whispers. *I was wrong*. 0:00 /0:31 1× iPhone footage, Lagos. 2024 (Rose Thomas Bannister) Living here, loving here — navigating heartbreak here — demanded confrontation. Lagos magnifies dark colonial legacies: wealth, influence, and survival intertwined. Its growth and density create tension. That insecurity — material, social, emotional, and most importantly spiritual — shapes how people love. Love becomes conditional and empathy weaponized. Lagos does not permit love to exist in a vacuum. Survival, reputation, and proximity to power dictate who is safe, who is allowed, and who is punished. Chukwuebuka Ibeh's novel *Blessing* captures this: two young lovers forced into exile by societal and parental control. When my own heartbreak became public — gossip, humiliation, speculation — I felt my back against the wall, and sometimes I still do. In Lagos, a story is like garri in hot water: once set, it's nearly impossible to undo. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/10/-Placeholder-for-Monai-Lagos-City-travel-snapshot-.png) **Lagos Market (Still from Modo di Bere TV, 2024)* Circles of influence watch, judge, comment. I don't move in circles. I move in love. I endured that scrutiny because I dared to be open and deeply myself — and thought our love could withstand the insecurity that runs through Nigeria's heart. I spent twelve days in exile, until I felt safe enough to show my face again. You can't control the city, but you can control how you move through it, how you love in it, how you reclaim your joy. Ibeh writes that love requires exile and resilience. Choosing to stay is choosing possibility over fear. Lagos asks hard questions. Even at the airport, yellow fever card in hand, and protocol with your passport, the city asks: *“Why are you here? Who are you really? What did you run from?”* There is no running here, only confronting chaos, greed, and sabotage while still choosing love. I learned that love in Lagos requires courage, and sovereignty. My heartbreak revealed that while I may have known someone in another place, I didn’t know them here. So, at 2 a.m. on a Tuesday morning, I packed up and left, choosing uncertainty over compromise. In Lagos, Peter Enahoro’s *How to Be Nigerian* come to life. People queue for hours in traffic, complain, and find joy in small victories: a correctly folded baba ijebu ticket, a perfectly fried akara, or a driver who doesn’t negotiate your soul away. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/10/Lagos-Still--Choose-Nourishment-.jpg) iPhone video still, Lagos. 2024 (Rose Thomas Bannister) Love here is just as intricate. It can be performed, tested, and scrutinized, as much as celebrated. Colonial legacies and moral policing distort affection. People who love beyond performance remind you joy is possible. ## Whether You Believe in It or Not My astrocartography places Lagos (and Badagry) on my Saturn line, a line of discipline, visibility, and growth. Here, my work is meant to be seen in a way I did not think possible. My room-filling energy continues to be recognized. My quirks and creativity remain protected, sovereign. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/10/Monai-by-Felix-Ezema.png) I started a Substack at the beginning of my Saturn return in 2023\. I wrote about the ending of my retail business and the loss of my father and what we can learn by celebrating grief like an ocean. My Saturn return ended on a new moon with a BANG — and I have learned so intimately what I need. I have experienced beautiful relationships in Lagos. I have not met all those who will love me here. I am safe, my joy is intact, and I move forward with lessons and blessings. Things end, but that should not stop you from giving your all. Impermanence should motivate you to unshield your heart. Love is human, love is sacred, and I will continue to shape my life around the principle of it. I did not get this far, just to get this far. I am living my dream. Lagos, I love you. I am home. --- *Versions of some stories in this essay were previously published at the @treesofnigeria Instagram account on Monai's newsletter, Deeper Roots. Photos courtesy of the author.* Follow Monai's work on Instagram [@treesofnigera](https://www.instagram.com/treesofnigeria/?ref=mododibere.com) ### Technicolor Sunsets, a Crispy Frico and a Glass of Red URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/wayne-young-on-friuli/ Last updated: 2026-10-10T16:54:55.000Z Wayne Young, an American sommelier and host of [La Taverna podcast](https://latavernafriuli.com/?ref=mododibere.com), shares his love for his adopted homeland of Friuli-Venezia Giulia. This is Modo di Bere Magazine's special series, Sense of Place. Sense of Place highlights the eight regions featured in the forthcoming travel show Modo di Bere TV. Click here to support the crowdfund to finish and release the show. [Support Modo di Bere TV!](https://www.ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) You can vote for the North Adriatic region to become Season One of the show until 11:59 am New York time on Saturday, November 10\. --- **MODO DI BERE:** What is your personal connection to the Friuli-Venezia Giulia region? **YOUNG:** Apart from wine, which sustains my life here in Friuli, my deepest connection is to my wife, who is half-friulian, half-sicilian and grew up here since the age of 6\. I met her here, we share our lives here and Udine has always been our home. She's a tireless and strong woman who supports my crazy projects and encourages my love of Friulian wine, food and culture. **MODO DI BERE:** Tell me about Friuli-Venezia Giulia like I’ve never heard of it before. **WAYNE:** While most of the world and most of the messaging about FVG concentrates on the concept of "The land of great white wines", I'm here to tell you that it's the reds that are really killing it right now. Pinot Noir fan? Schioppettino is your new favorite wine. What? You like them big and bold? Barolo and Brunello you say? Let me hit you with a Refosco or a Pignolo. Outside the wine world, this summer we spent a lot of afternoons on the pebble beach down in Sistiana, only about a 30 minute drive from Udine. I have to say, you're getting about 75% of Sicily for only 1% of the travel time. The Adriatic in Friuli is grossly underrated. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/10/Wayne-Young-Wants-YOU-to-drink-more-Refosco-2.jpg) Wayne Young wants YOU to drink more Refosco **MODO DI BERE:** If you brought me to Friuli to show me around, what would we be looking at? Landscapes, plants, animals, structures, people? **YOUNG:** Our tour would start in the center of Udine, where we would see how beautiful this little city is, and explore the incredible amount of great wine bars (and some craft beer joints as well!). You'll be shocked at what you get for your money in the center. The next morning it's all about vineyards, where you'll see that most of Friuli isn't an ocean of monoculture vineyards, but a respectful mix of vines and forest. There will be vistas where we'll see the Adriatic, and then turn 180 degrees to look at the looming Alps, perhaps in a tucked-away vineyard nestled in the trees. **MODO DI BERE:** Can you share a memory about seasons or weather in this region? Friuli is known for its gloomy winter. I've met people who came here looking for the same weather you find on the Amalfi Coast, only to be disappointed by the fact that Friuli is one of, if not the rainiest region in Italy. That said, the summers are warm but not horribly hot (apart from a week or 2 in August) and the humidity is nothing compared to the tropical oppression of New Jersey summers. Winters are mild, and getting milder, and if you need to make a snowball, the Alps are a short drive away. Vote for North Adriatic (Friuli-Venezia Giulia and Slovenia) in [Wine Doc Face Off](https://www.ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) **MODO DI BERE:** In a typical day from your life in Friuli, what are the sounds that you hear? **YOUNG:** When I think of Friuli sounds I can only think of 2 things: the constant ringing of church bells and the brash but somehow welcoming sound of Friulano as friends laugh and joke together. I was convinced when I moved here that there was a plot to control my mind through sleep deprivation as my bedroom window was directly across from the local bell tower which sounded the time EVERY 15 MINUTES, 24 hours a day! ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/10/Friuli-Venezia-Giulia--Still-from-Modo-di-Bere-TV-1.png) Friuli-Venezia Giulia (Still from Modo di Bere TV trailer) **MODO DI BERE:** What are the smells that you smell? **YOUNG**: Burning wood, steamy polenta, spicy goulash. In wine I smell the lovely bitter almond of Tocai Friulano and the briary fruit in a Refosco. **MODO DI BERE:** If I could hold Friuli-Venezia Giulia in my hands, what would I be reaching out to touch? **YOUNG:** A little world of it's own. A tiny planet filled with diverse life, every ecosystem you can name from the mountains to the sea, rich wine and food, and every kind of animal from black bears to tiny shrimp and everything in between. A little universe in your hand. **MODO DI BERE:** If I ask you to name the flavors of Friuli, what memories come to mind? **YOUNG:** Creamy montasio inside a crispy Frico. The savoriness of a whole-grain polenta. Ripe red fruit and pepper in a Schioppettino. The flowers in a glass of Malvasia. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/10/Prosciutto-San-Daniele-at-Ferdinand.png) Snacks and bubbly at Ferdinand winery in Brda, the Slovenian counterpart to Friuli's Collio (Still from Modo di Bere TV trailer) **MODO DI BERE:** Let’s also speak about the flavor of the language, the local way of speaking. What does it sound like? Can you teach me a very local saying or phrase? **YOUNG:** Friulano is a language of the people. Of farmers and hard workers. Only in my lifetime has Friulano become a subject formally taught in schools here. Before that it was passed on verbally from generation to generation. Its sound is like a rough mix of Latin, French and German, with lots of sibilant sounds. For example, in many places in Friuli the Friulano word for "fragole" (Strawberry) is "trisculis". Those "s" sounds, especially at the end of a word, are quite different from Italian. In fact, adding an "s" is a common way of constructing the plural in Friulano. My favorite phrase in Friulano is a little encapsulation of my life: "Tu as plui cul che sentiment", which means "You are luckier than you are smart." **MODO DI BERE:** Translated literally, "You have more ass than sense!" I’d love to hear about your experience with both learning Italian and engaging with Friulano. **YOUNG:** Learning Italian is an ongoing process for me, even after 24 years here. Ask anybody about how well I use the conjunctive! (Spoiler: I don't.) My first experiences with Friulano were almost all "bestemmie", having worked in the cellar and in the vineyards with hard-core Friulani. But apart from that initial exposure, the Friulani people are very proud of their language, and they use it as a way to cement relationships and find commonality among friends. **MODO DI BERE:** When you dream about Friuli, what do you dream about? **YOUNG:** Good dreams: Calm summer evenings, technicolor sunsets, the silence in the vineyard, a crispy frico and a glass of red. Bad dreams: Hornets. Realizing I didn't prepare for a tasting. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/10/Drinking-Refosco-in-Friuli.jpg) Drinking Refosco in Friuli (Rose Thomas Bannister) **MODO DI BERE:** Is there something you wish people would understand about Friuli-Venezia Giulia? **YOUNG:** That it's not German, or Austrian. There's little or no German language spoken here, so it's not Alto Adige. It's so much more than "close to Venezia". It is an area of profound history (Aquileia, the Longobards, two world wars), incredible resilience (rebuilt not only after 2 wars, but also a devastating earthquake) and a dedication to hard work. Finally, it is an amazing place to visit for everything I have explained up to now: food, nature, wine, people, cities, history, and it is unspoiled by mass tourism. --- Follow Wayne on Threads [@waynegrape](https://www.threads.com/@waynegrape?ref=mododibere.com) Listen to [La Taverna Podcast](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/la-taverna-friuli-wine/id1585679162?ref=mododibere.com) Rose Thomas Bannister, the host of the Modo di Bere podcast, interviewed Wayne: and Wayne interviewed Rose Thomas: [https://latavernafriuli.com/episode/rose-thomas-from-modo-di-bere-s08e08](https://latavernafriuli.com/episode/rose-thomas-from-modo-di-bere-s08e08?ref=mododibere.com) The Sense of Place series is free to the public to read through the end of the Wine Doc Face Off campaign in October 2026. ### Nigeria Season Trailer URL: https://www.mododibere.com/travel-show/nigeria-season-trailer/ Last updated: 2026-10-03T05:23:21.000Z Local drinks and local language in Nigeria, featuring Nigeria's only craft brewery, [Bature](https://www.instagram.com/baturebrewery/?ref=mododibere.com), in Lagos, and the visionary Ògógóró producer [Lola Pedro](https://www.instagram.com/pedrosafrica/?ref=mododibere.com) in Badagry. Help us finish this show so everyone can watch it: [www.ko-fi.com/mododibere](https://ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) ### North Adriatic Season Trailer URL: https://www.mododibere.com/travel-show/north-adriatic-season-trailer/ Last updated: 2026-10-03T05:23:46.000Z Wine and language in the long-contested borderlands of eastern Italy and western Slovenia. Help us finish this show so everyone can watch it: [www.ko-fi.com/mododibere](https://ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) ### We Gamified the Crowdfund for MdB TV URL: https://www.mododibere.com/travel-show/wine-doc-face-off/ Last updated: 2026-09-27T03:13:02.000Z We've filmed 8 seasons of the wine and language travel show Modo di Bere TV. Now YOU decide which season we air first! [Support](https://ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) We gamified our crowdfund! WINE DOC FACE OFF is a bracket-style tournament where supporters vote to decide which season of Modo di Bere TV to air first. This crowdfund is for post-production (editing) one season of the show (four to six 25-minute episodes, aired on YouTube). But which season gets the dollars? The one YOU want to see most. [Sounds fun. I'll donate!](ko-fi.com/mododibere) [Take me to this week's contest](https://ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com): NIGERIA vs NORTH ADRIATIC This spring, [TEXAS](https://www.mododibere.com/travel-show/texas-season-trailer/) was bowled over by popular support for [CALABRIA](https://www.mododibere.com/tag/calabria/). Then one high-rolling donor blew [PIEMONTE](https://www.mododibere.com/travel-show/piemonte-season-trailer/) ahead of the [DOLOMITES.](https://www.mododibere.com/travel-show/dolomites-season-trailer/) Every Saturday through late October, we'll announce new contests, hoping to build interest, momentum, and possibly even repeat donations as supporters champion their favorite region. --- The first [fall fund face off](https://ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) is between [NIGERIA](https://www.mododibere.com/nigeria-season-trailer/) and [NORTH ADRIATIC.](https://www.mododibere.com/north-adriatic-season-trailer/) Next, we'll pit VALTELLINA against the New York FINGER LAKES. After that, two rounds of semi-finals culminating in the *final face off.* Each week, the featured regions "take over" the entire Modo di Bere platform with [guest articles](https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/a-bit-scared-of-the-mountains/), live [interviews,](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuIx5mUqD5Ox%5FfoiwedQi7nUM5RQJJpOs&si=9kt2WW-sdaEHcjPV&ref=mododibere.com) and podcast [adventure tales.](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s5e3-piemonte-vs-dolomites/) We'll also celebrate the show with a series of [events!](https://www.mododibere.com/events/) --- Catch every update: [Subscribe](#/portal/) to our free newsletter and follow @mododibere [on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/mododibere/?ref=mododibere.com) We will eventually edit and air all of these marvelous regional documentaries, and other adventures we've filmed along the way. Your support helps get the show off the ground with one fully published season. Thank you so much for supporting—and sharing!—our campaign. 🍷 ### I'm Giving Away Ten Bottles of Wine For Free URL: https://www.mododibere.com/wine-club/im-giving-away-ten-bottles-of-wine-for-free/ Last updated: 2026-09-22T13:50:19.000Z I'm launching a wine club, and the first ten people [who sign up here](https://socialsomm.com/main?page=subscribe&sid=1783712618875x432134671246032900&ref=mododibere.com) will get a FREE bottle in their first shipment. **Quick sip:** The Modo di Bere wine club is now available through Social Somm. I'm curating gorgeous, Italophile, story-driven wines just for you! [Join the Club](https://socialsomm.com/main?page=subscribe&sid=1783712618875x432134671246032900&ref=mododibere.com) Four times a year, get a box of six wines in the mail, chosen by yours truly, Rose Thomas Bannister. Sign up today, don't get charged until your box ships. For today, this news is going out to my newsletter subscribers, to say thank you for being here, right from the start. I'm not posting this on social media **for one full day,** to give you the best chance of being in the first ten. Now let me get out of your way! [About the club](https://socialsomm.com/main?page=howitworks&ref=mododibere.com) [About Social Somm](https://socialsomm.com/main?somm=mododibere&ref=mododibere.com) [Take me straight to the wine!](https://socialsomm.com/main?page=subscribe&sid=1783712618875x432134671246032900&ref=mododibere.com) Cheers! Rose Thomas 🌹 🍷 --- *What is Social Somm?* Questions about how Social Somm works, [click this link ](https://socialsomm.com/main?page=howitworks&ref=mododibere.com)for all the info. *Which bottles will be in the first box?* I'll write soon with more stories about the wines I've chosen for the first box, as availability gets confirmed from the small farmers I love to champion. If you've already been wishing that you could taste the wines I talk about on the podcast and on social, [this club is for you.](https://socialsomm.com/main?somm=mododibere&ref=mododibere.com) *How will I know if I'm in the first ten?!* Note: there is no discount code or button that will say "you're in!" at Social Somm. When I see you've signed up, I'll email you personally to say thanks. :-) Feel free to [email me](mailto:rosethomas@mododibere.com) to check if there are still free bottles available. ### WINE DOC FACE OFF Aperitivo URL: https://www.mododibere.com/events/wine-doc-face-off-aperitivo-1/ Last updated: 2026-09-16T22:04:49.000Z **Tues, Sept 22** **6-9 pm** **Almar (Dumbo)** **111 Front St, Brooklyn** Raise a glass with Rose Thomas and Emilia, the women behind the wine and language travel show [Modo di Bere TV](https://www.mododibere.com/travel-show/modo-di-bere-tv-trailer/?utm%5Fsource=luma) Stop by and celebrate the fall launch of Wine Doc Face Off, the crowdfund to finish Season One! [Click here to RSVP](https://luma.com/auisz8sy?ref=mododibere.com) Aperitivo \~ Italian happy hour with really good snacks. *Wine selects by Rose Thomas, small plates by Almar* No charge to attend, everyone opens their own tab See you soon! 🍷✈️🎥 [WINE DOC FACE OFF Aperitivo · LumaRaise a glass with Rose Thomas and Emilia, the women behind the wine and language travel show Modo di Bere TV Stop by and celebrate the fall launch of Wine…![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/icon/favicon-d06b4848-cf93-4418-95cb-6c879ea2e10b.png)Rose Thomas Bannister![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/thumbnail/363a8359-beb9-4b70-a55f-07f8c6bb6524-aebc4e5d-7f6c-4ad4-aaa0-f7cf56f184ee.jpg)](https://luma.com/auisz8sy?ref=mododibere.com) ### Modo di Bere TV Trailer URL: https://www.mododibere.com/travel-show/modo-di-bere-tv-trailer/ Last updated: 2026-09-26T23:31:00.000Z Why are we obsessed with drinks and dialect? Modo di Bere connects **biodiversity** and **linguistic variety**, in Italy and beyond, through local drinks and local sayings. ### A Bit Scared of the Mountains URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/a-bit-scared-of-the-mountains/ Last updated: 2026-09-10T15:45:29.000Z Beatrice Zocche is a sommelier from northern Italy. She has an abiding love of the Dolomite mountains. The “Sense of Place” magazine series celebrates the wine regions filmed for Modo di Bere TV. [Bring Modo di Bere TV to Life!](https://ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) --- My father always told me to be a bit scared of the mountains so I would never get in trouble. “Is not a game Beatrice! Make sure you can always come back in the same way you started.” Apart from this, I also know that this region is not only mountains but also definition of a strong culture where people grow up in sometimes unpleasant weather, in a not-easy landscape for transportation. Thanks also to my adventurous parent, my father, I was been able as a child to hike and appreciate all the things that the Dolomites can give to us. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Dolomite-mountains-reflected-in-pool-courtesy-of-beatrice-zocche-modo-di-bere.jpeg) **The Dolomites* I said clearly *can give* because Dolomites are not a gym, Dolomites are not a playground. Dolomites are a natural monument to keep intact, appreciated and respected in all its majesty. I always look at Trentino-Alto Adige with respect and enthusiasm. Growing up being three hours away by car, you can’t find the same big trees in Veneto like in Trentino Alto-Adige: the smell of resin and fresh air that stings your nose when you roll down the car window, the sun that tingles your skin because you are so much higher above the sea. And what about the food! Trentino-Alto Adige is an incredible cradle of strong flavors, starting from the land with all its vegetables that are literally strong and bitter to survive the cold. The recipes are most of the time characterized by abundant cheese, due to the cow farming, and plenty of butter: not in an excessive way, but in a balanced way, to provide energy. The people who live in these places are seen by the rest of my country as strong and resilient. People of not too many words, for sure, but hard workers without too many frills in their head. People of Trentino-Alto Adige have a strong love and attachment for their heritage. The history of Trentino and South Tyrol (Südtirol) has always been synonymous of encounter or rather conflict due to the two World wars, with the dialects being strongly influenced by this history. Part of the region was once Austria, and many people speak German instead of, or in addition to, Italian, in addition to other ancient local languages. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/elisabetta-foradori-with-cows-courtesy-beatrice-zocche.jpeg) **Elisabetta Foradori with a cow* I remember well a friend at school whose father was studying a Tyrolean song, which to me sounded funny. I wondered, “Why study a language that is hardly used anymore?” but that’s precisely the point: it’s done to not forget, to keep alive a centuries-old culture so fascinating and unique. Over the years, my profession has led me to visit the Dolomites for another reason: wine. On these occasions I have visited winemakers like Elisabetta Foradori and Uva Mani e Cuore and others. Their strength and genuine spirit unite them. They are determined people who look ahead or rather beyond the peaks. The wines are elegant hearty and balsamic. When you drink them, you can really feel like you are hiking over there! And one last small thought about this beautiful region is the solitary life that many people have chosen to live there, in small villages literally in the rocks. This always fascinated me! It would be a dream, at least for a while, to escape the excesses the routine of modern life and simply stand in silence, admiring those wonderful monuments that the Nature has given us. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/beatrice-zocche-hiking-dolomites.jpeg) **Beatrice hiking with her father* --- *Watch the trailer for the Dolomites season of Modo di Bere TV, and* [*support the crowdfund*](https://ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) *to bring the show to life!* --- ## Meet Beatrice! Born in Vicenza, small town in northeast part of Italy, I always dreamed to be among cool people in different places. Soon, as a teenager, I started to travel by myself, curious to see how the world is outside my town, always pushing myself to adapt to other cultures. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/beatrice-zocche-by-tamara-beckwith-2.jpeg) **Beatrice Zocche, portrait by Tamara Beckwith* My first studies were Economics in Verona, but soon I realized was not my right path. Working in restaurants since I was eighteen gave me the chance to get close to the wine world, from the winemaking and the service part; that’s why I decided to do a master’s in agriculture in Padua. I spent the second year of that master in Australia, Sydney and from there I would say my life changed drastically. I opened my heart and eyes to bigger options. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/beatrice-zocche-by-tamara-beckwith-3.jpeg) **Beatrice Zocche, portrait by Tamara Beckwith* After getting my sommelier certificated and finishing my studies, I got the opportunity to move to New York city in 2021\. I am now working and spending my time learning about wines still at Cellar 36 ,a beautiful wine bar in Chinatown, where you can find me pouring crazy wines and having fun. **What is right for you will find you !** —Beatrice Zocche *The Sense of Place series is free to the public to read through the end of the Wine Doc Face Off campaign in mid October.* ### Ineffable Perfumes, Indomitable Desire URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/ineffable-perfumes-indomitable-desire/ Last updated: 2026-09-26T23:25:19.000Z Giuseppe Vajra of [G.D. Vajra wines](https://www.gdvajra.it/en/homepage?ref=mododibere.com) appeared with his wines and his stories on the forthcoming Piemonte season of Modo di Bere TV. The “Sense of Place” magazine series celebrates the wine regions filmed for Modo di Bere TV. [Help bring Modo di Bere TV to life!](https://ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) --- **MODO DI BERE:** What is the name of the town where you grew up? **VAJRA:** Vergne, a 300-people-hamlet tucked on the western hill of Barolo. Apparently, the name came from 'svernare' or *to spend the winter:* in ancient times, people would spend winters here, so as to escape the humid fog of the valleys. **MODO DI BERE:** Tell me about Piemonte like I’ve never heard of it before. **VAJRA:** An indomitable, infinite desire. This is Piemonte. Encaptured by the mountains, somewhat imprisoned by its own geographical and political boundaries, by the formality of being the Savoy’s kingdom, by the misery that made people fight neighbors instead of dreaming of sailing and discovering and trading. Yet, an indomitable desire of infinity, an acceptance of sacrifice, a striving to improve. And finally, a land of ineffable perfumes, whether in wine, food, or mysterious truffles underground. This is also Piemonte. **MODO DI BERE:** If you brought me to Piemonte to show me around, what would we be looking at? Landscapes, plants, animals, structures, people? **VAJRA:** I'd take you to a couple of my secret spots. Places that hardly no tourist has ever seen, that disclose gorgeous angles on our rolling hills and vineyards. And then I'd take you to an off-the-beaten-path trattoria to get a taste of old Piemonte. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Piemonte-mountains.jpeg) **The Vajra family has farmed Bricco delle Viole, the highest cru in Comune di Barolo, since the 1880s.* **MODO DI BERE:** Can you share a memory of Piemontese seasons or weather? **VAJRA:** Maybe one of the most glorious times, for me, is the 'ottobrate': days in which early mountain snow drops boTh temperature and humidity, revealing the brightest of all landscapes. **MODO DI BERE:** Let’s also speak about the flavor of the language, the local way of speaking. What does it sound like? Can you teach me a very local saying or phrase? **VAJRA:** It sounds closer to french than Italian, it is rather edgy but with a musicality. Old Piemontese people may have not been educated, by the surely had words and magnificent expression. **MODO DI BERE:** What does dialect mean to you? **VAJRA:** The language of my mum's parents, and endless memories of my youth. **MODO DI BERE:** When you dream about Piemonte, what do you dream about? **VAJRA:** I dream about my home. **Trailer for the Piemonte season of Modo di Bere TV*. [**Support the Crowdfund!*](https://ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) --- *At the young age of fifteen, Aldo Vajra embraced the dream to revive his family legacy. Displaying a vision and commitment belying his young age he took over the estate in 1968, turning a new page. Aldo soon acquired the first organic certification of the region (1971), created private biotype selections (selezioni massali) of Nebbiolo and Dolcetto, pioneered the renaissance of Freisa, a noble yet forgotten local grape (1980) and the cultivation of Rhine Riesling in Piemonte (1985). ­* *High elevation vineyards are a unique factor to Vajra wines, allowing them to express finesse and remarkable complexity over simple power. Attention to detail and humility toward nature, uncompromised efforts and humanity, these are the ideals of the Vajra family: Aldo and Milena, now joined by their children Giuseppe, Francesca and Isidoro, and by an amazing team of young professionals. G.D. Vajra is an independent winery, entirely family-owned.* *—Giuliana Imports* --- *The Sense of Place series is free to the public to read through the end of the Wine Doc Face Off campaign in mid October.* ### ▷S5E3 Piemonte vs The Dolomites - Wine Doc Face Off URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s5e3-piemonte-vs-dolomites/ Last updated: 2026-09-26T23:25:37.000Z “It's like March Madness, but for wine documentaries"—from the rolling hills of Alba and Asti in Piemonte to the Dolomite mountains of Trentino-Alto Adige. Listen (or watch on YouTube!) to learn which biodynamic apple farmer finally got Rose Thomas daydreaming about going back to the land, and to hear Daniela of Crotin 1897 discuss what speaking Piemontese means to her, and the to the next generation. Eight seasons. Three continents. A wine travel show like no other. Seasons of Modo di Bere TV will "face off" to earn the most votes, until the ultimate winner becomes the first season to air of Modo di Bere TV. Watch the [trailers](https://www.mododibere.com/tag/trailers/) for this week’s match in the Wine Doc Face Off tournament. [Support the Campaign!](https://ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) Season 5 is a special season in honor of Wine Doc Face Off, the crowdfunding tournament to raise funds for post-production of Modo di Bere TV. Theme Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com ](https://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their latest record: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Dolomites theme “Cuckoo” by [Ralph White](https:// https://ralphwhite.bandcamp.com/ ) Piemonte theme “Stranger Blues” by [Grg Ptrsn](https://grgptrsn.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Used with permission Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister in collaboration with Emilia Aghamirzai and Giulia Àlvarez-Katz Graphics + editing by Giulia Àlvarez-Katz [ Texas vs Calabria ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s5e2-texas-vs-calabria/) ### Dialect is the Blood, the Last Thing to Die URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/dialect-is-the-blood-the-last-thing-to-die/ Last updated: 2026-09-10T15:44:51.000Z Calabrian singer-songwriter Peppe Voltarelli [appeared on the Modo di Bere Podcast](https://www.mododibere.com/content/files/2026/08/peppe-voltarelli.html) in early 2023 to share his music and his reflections on his local dialect. He returns to Modo di Bere to talk about Calabria. Read this interview in the original Italian by clicking the link below: [LEGGERE IN ITALIANO](https://www.mododibere.com/il-dialetto-e-il-sangue-lultima-cosa-che-morira/) *The “Sense of Place” magazine series celebrates the wine regions filmed for Modo di Bere TV.* [Crowdfund for Modo di Bere TV!](https://ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) --- **MODO DI BERE:** What is the name of the town where you grew up? **VOLTARELLI:** It's called Crosia, on the Ionian Coast in the province of Cosenza **MODO DI BERE:** Tell me about Calabria like I’ve never heard of it before. **VOLTARELLI:** It's a beautiful, wild, romantic, damned region in the middle of the mediterranean sea. **MODO DI BERE:** If you brought me to Calabria to show me around, what would we be looking at? Landscapes, plants, animals, structures, people? **VOLTARELLI:** I like places that havern't been beaten down by tourism; unfinished buildings, depopulated historical centers, in these places you can discover treasures. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Peppe-Voltarelli-Calabrese-Calabrian-Podcast-Modo-di-Bere-2023.jpg) [**Peppe Voltarelli, Modo di bere podcast, 2023*](https://www.mododibere.com/content/files/2026/08/peppe-voltarelli-1.html) **MODO DI BERE:** On a typical day from your life in Calabria, what are the sounds that you hear? **VOLTARELLI:** The sounds of the sea, or the mountain wind. Cities are small, in cities you can hear the sound of cement, of the gold, of the gray. **MODO DI BERE:** What are the smells that you smell? **VOLTARELLI:** The smell of earth after rain, or the smell of smoking chimneys in the mountain villages in winter, or in the spring the smell of wild dogs and broom flowers. **MODO DI BERE:** If I could hold Calabria in my hands, what would I be reaching out to touch? **VOLTARELLI:** A rock by the sea, not easy to caress or walk upon. > “‘What does your dialect mean to you?’ > > ’The blood. The last thing to die.” **MODO DI BERE:** If I ask you to name the flavors of Calabria, what memories come to mind? **VOLTARELLI:** Mandarin oranges, wild blackberries, the smell of musk used in christmas nativity scenes, and the smell of scorched earth moistened by the rain. **MODO DI BERE:** Let’s also speak about the flavor of the language, the local way of speaking. What does it sound like? Can you teach me a very local saying or phrase? **VOLTARELLI:** There are many different dialects and accents in Calabria, more than a hundred. the words change from village to village, even with extremely small distance. “Miscate ‘ccù ri megli e tia e fanne i spisi.” Surround yourself with people who are better than you and they’ll pay for your groceries. My father always said that. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Calabria-Schiavonea-beach-heritage-fishermen-marinai-still-Modo-di-Bere-Tv.png) **Modo di Bere creator/host Rose Thomas Bannister visited Schiavonea beach in Calabria to speak with traditional fishermen for Modo di Bere TV after Voltarelli told her about such sailors and playing his song “Marinai” on the Modo di Bere podcast.* **MODO DI BERE:** What does your dialect mean to you? **VOLTARELLI:** It's blood. The last thing that will die. **MODO DI BERE:** When you dream about Calabria, what do you dream about? **VOLTARELLI:** Of escaping, running away, never to return. **MODO DI BERE:** Is there something you wish people would understand about Calabria? **VOLTARELLI:** Yes, the garbage bags. People shouldn't dump them on the side of the street, because then when wild dogs go to eat from the trash, they cross the street and it often causes car accidents. People have died, and it's not the street's fault, it's the garbage bag's fault. --- **Trailer for the Calabrian season of Modo di Bere TV, featuring Peppe''s song, “Fiore che balla”.* [**Support the crowdfund for Modo di Bere TV!*](https://ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) **Peppe Voltarelli** is a Calabrian singer, multifaceted character, songwriter, ironic and incisive writer and actor. Active since 1994 as founder and leader of "Il Parto delle Nuvole Pesanti", a cult Italian new folk band. As a soloist he has released five studio albums, nine live albums and four soundtracks. He won the Targa Tenco three times with “Ultima notte a Mala Strana” in 2010 as best dialect album and with “Voltarelli canta Profazio” in 2016 as best interpreter album, and for the 2021 album Planetario, a collection of timeless songs published by Squilibri. He was the leading actor and co-author of the film "The true legend of Tony Vilar" by Giuseppe Gagliardi, the first Italian mokumentary. He boasts collaborations with Claudio Lolli, Teresa De Sio, Sergio Cammariere and Bandabardo and Amy Denio. Peppe and Rose Thomas met at a Brooklyn wine shop when he was in town recording the album “La grande corsa verso Lupionòpolis.” *Voltarelli's 2023 interview on the Modo di Bere podcast includes live performances of several original songs in Calabrese.* *Interview translated from Italian by* [*Giulia Àlvarez-Katz*](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) *The Sense of Place series is free to the public to read through the end of the Wine Doc Face Off campaign in mid October.* ### Il dialetto è il sangue, l’ultima cosa che morirà. URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/il-dialetto-e-il-sangue-lultima-cosa-che-morira/ Last updated: 2026-09-10T15:44:21.000Z Il cantautore calabrese Peppe Voltarelli è apparso [sul podcast Modo di Bere](https://www.mododibere.com/content/files/2026/08/peppe-voltarelli-2.html) all'inizio del 2023 per condividere la sua musica e le sue riflessioni sul dialetto. Torna su Modo di Bere con questa intervista per parlare della CALABRIA. Questa intervista è disponible in inglese: [READ IN ENGLISH](https://www.mododibere.com/dialect-is-the-blood-the-last-thing-to-die/) *La seria "Sense of Place" celebra le regioni vinicole filmate per il programma Modo di Bere TV.* [Crowdfund per Modo di Bere TV!](https://ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) **MODO DI BERE:** Come si chiama il paese dove sei cresciuto? **VOLTARELLI:** Si chiama Crosia sulla costa Jonica in provincia di Cosenza. **MODO DI BERE:** Raccontami della Calabria come non l'ho mai sentito nominare. **VOLTARELLI:** È una regione molto bella e selvaggia romantica e dannata in mezzo al mare mediterraneo. **MODO DI BERE:** Se mi portassi a Calabria per farmi vedere in giro, cosa stiamo guardando? Viste, piante, animali, strutture, persone? **VOLTARELLI:** A me piacciono i luoghi non battuti dal turismo. I palazzi non finiti e i centri storici spopolati in questi luoghi si scoprono tesori. > “‘Cosa significa il tuo dialetto, per te?’ > > ‘È il sangue, l’ultima cosa che morirà.’” **MODO DI BERE:** In una giornata tipica in Calabria, cosa sono i suoni che senti? **VOLTARELLI:** I suoni del mare oppure il vento in montagna le città sono piccole nelle città puoi sentire il rumore del cemento il freddo del grigio. **MODO DI BERE:** Cosa sono gli odori? **VOLTARELLI:** Odori della terra dopo la pioggia oppure dei camini fumanti nei paesi di montagna in inverno o in primavera la ginestra e i cani randagi. **MODO DI BERE:** Se potessi tenere Calabria nelle mani, cosa starei toccando? **VOLTARELLI:** Uno scoglio non facile da accarezzare o da camminarci sopra. **MODO DI BERE:** Se ti chiedo di dirmi i gusti della Calabria, cosa sono i ricordi che ti vengono in mente? **VOLTARELLI:** I mandarini e le more selvatiche l’odore del muschio che si usa per fare Il presepe a Natale e l’odore della terra arsa bagnata dalla pioggia. **MODO DI BERE:** Parlami del gusto della lingua, il dialetto locale. Come suona? Puoi insegnarmi un modo di dire? **VOLTARELLI:** Ci sono molti dialetti e accenti differenti in Calabria più di 100 le parole cambiano da paese a paese anche a brevissima distanza “miscate ‘ccù ri megli e tia e fanne i spisi” (stai con persone migliori di te e paga le spese) lo diceva sempre mio padre. **Trailer la stagione calabrese di Modo di Bere TV, con la canzone di Peppe Voltarelli, “Fiore che balla”.* [**A*](https://ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com)[**iuta il Crowdfund per Modo di Bere TV!*](https://ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) **MODO DI BERE:** Cosa significa il tuo dialetto, per te? **VOLTARELLI:** È il sangue, l’ultima cosa che morirà. **MODO DI BERE:** Quando sogni della Calabria, di che cosa sogni? **VOLTARELLI:** Di scappare di correre e di non tornare più. **MODO DI BERE:** C'é qualcosa che vorresti che la gente capisca della Calabria? **VOLTARELLI:** Si che le buste di spazzatura. In si buttano ai lati della strada perché poi i cani randagi mentre vanno a mangiare nelle buste e attraversano la strada di notte provocano incidenti e la gente muore non è colpa della strada è colpa della busta. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Calabria-Schiavonea-beach-heritage-fishermen-marinai-still-Modo-di-Bere-Tv.png) **Modo di Bere TV ha visitato la spiaggia di Schiavonea in Calabria dopo che Voltarelli ha ispirato la conduttrice Rose Thomas Bannister con la sua canzone sui pescatori calabresi, "Marinai".* --- **Peppe Voltarelli** è un cantante calabrese, personaggio poliedrico, autore di canzoni, scrittore e attore ironico e pungente. Attivo dal 1994 come fondatore voce e leader de “Il Parto delle Nuvole Pesanti” band di culto del new folk italiano. Da solista ha pubblicato cinque album in studio nove live e quattro colonne sonore. Si è aggiudicato tre volte la **Targa Tenco** con “Ultima notte a Mala Strana” nel 2010 come miglior album in dialetto e con “Voltarelli canta Profazio” nel 2016 come miglior album interprete, e in 2021 grazie al album **Planetario**, una raccolta di canzoni senza tempo, edito da Squilibri. È stato attore protagonista e coautore del film “La vera leggenda di Tony Vilar” di Giuseppe Gagliardi primo mokumentary italiano. Vanta collaborazioni con Claudio Lolli, Teresa De Sio, Sergio Cammariere e Bandabardo e Amy Denio. Peppe e Rose Thomas si sono conosciuti in un'enoteca di Brooklyn mentre lui era in New York per registrare l'album “La grande corsa verso Lupionòpolis.” L'intervista di Voltarelli del 2023 sul podcast Modo di Bere include l'esecuzione dal vivo di diverse canzoni originali in calabrese. *La serie "Sense of Place" è disponibile gratuitamente per il pubblico fino alla conclusione della campagna "Wine Doc Face Off", prevista per metà ottobre.* ### The Texas State Motto is “Friendship” URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/the-texas-state-motto-is-friendship/ Last updated: 2026-09-10T15:43:34.000Z Bruce Tiffin appeared along with his longtime best friend Alvin Ivory in a forthcoming episode of Modo di Bere TV. This series, "Sense of Place," celebrates the locations covered in this forthcoming docuseries about local culture. [Help Bring Modo di Bere TV to life!](https://ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) --- Texas is unique in many ways. From a diverse mix of geography to a population of individuals with enormous personalities, Texas has long been thought of as having a BIG attitude for personality as well as the way of life. The old saying that everything is bigger in Texas describes most anything in the state. One thing that folks from Texas ought to be known for is how they treat each other. Texas is a friends haven. After all, the state motto is simply, “Friendship.” We Texans are willing to friend anyone as long as that friendship is returned, no matter race, religion or ethnicity. In the early 1960's, my family moved to a small West Texas town called Quitaque (“kitty-quay”). We lived behind the school where my mother taught. On a summer day about a week after arriving I was playing on the school playground alone. I saw a young Black kid walking up to me. He walked up stuck out his hand and said, “My name is Alvin. Want to be friends?” It was the summer between my 6th and 7th grade. I was about 11 years old. From 1967 until today in 2026 some 59 years later we are still best friends. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Alvin-Ivory-Quitaque-Texas-still-Modo-di-Bere-TV-dugout-mules.png) **Alvin Ivory, still from Modo di Bere TV, 2023* ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Bruce-Tiffin-in-Silverton.JPEG) **Bruce Tiffin, 2023, by Rose Thomas Bannister* Our lives drastically went different directions and there were long periods of time where we didn't see each other or talk. Those days didn't separate our friendship, just our locations. As time rapidly moves forward our relationship grows even stronger. > “Even in these crazy times it’s clear: Every thing is bigger in Texas and that includes this friendship. ” January 24, 2026\. It’s snowing outside. I'm at my friend’s house. He is one week out of a two month stay in the Albuquerque VA hospital. He needed me and I came. There are many times that my friend helped me. But the greatest gift, the thing that he did for me that I'm the most grateful for is simply his first words to me, "I'm Alvin. Want to be friends?” I'm proud of my state and I'm proud of my friend. Even in these crazy times it's clear: Every thing is bigger in Texas and that includes this friendship. Want to experience the amazing landscapes and geography? Want to discover why we are like we are? Just come on down and maybe you will find that Texas friend that will be there for you for many many years. And by the way we do have the best beef steaks in the world. --- **Trailer for the forthcoming Modo di Bere TV season featuring Alvin and Bruce!* [Support Modo di Bere TV's crowd campaign!](https://ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) *The Sense of Place series is free to the public to read through the end of the Wine Doc Face Off campaign in mid October.* ### ▷S5E2 Texas vs Calabria URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s5e2-texas-vs-calabria/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T22:30:33.000Z [Calabria](https://www.mododibere.com/travel-show/calabria-season-trailer/) won this round and will advance in the Wine Doc Face Off tournament, but [Texas](https://www.mododibere.com/travel-show/texas-season-trailer/) still lives large in our hearts. We learned all about Texas and Calabrian wines and documented the oral history of local languages from Texas German to cowboys shooting the sh\*t, from traditional fishermen to Calabrian speakers of Arbëreshë, an ancient dialect of Albanian. Listen (or watch on YouTube!) to learn which [Calabrian fishermen](https://www.tiktok.com/@francescomarghel?ref=mododibere.com) Rose Thomas still follows on “Ticky Tocky” and why an old ranch dugout with a makeshift outdoor shower was these filmmaker’s most memorable red carpet. Watch the [trailers](https://www.mododibere.com/tag/trailers/) for the Wine Doc Face Off tournament. [Support Modo di Bere TV!](https://ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) Please share our campaign! Season 5 is a special season in honor of Wine Doc Face Off, the crowdfunding tournament to raise funds for post-production of Modo di Bere TV. Eight seasons. Three continents. A wine travel show like no other. Seasons of Modo di Bere TV will "face off" to earn the most votes, until the ultimate winner becomes the first season to air of Modo di Bere TV. This season will focus on travel adventure stories. The podcast will return to our regular mix of conversation and travel adventures in season 6\. Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister in collaboration with [Emilia Aghamirzai](https://www.fatchixinc.com/?ref=mododibere.com) and [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) and Rose Thomas Bannister. Graphics by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Piemonte vs Dolomites ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s5e3-piemonte-vs-dolomites/) [ Season 5 Trailer ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s5e1-trailer-wine-doc-face-off/) ### Dolomites Season Trailer URL: https://www.mododibere.com/travel-show/dolomites-season-trailer/ Last updated: 2026-08-16T03:23:39.000Z RT's adventures in the magnificent Dolomites region of Trentino-Alto Adige ### Piemonte Season Trailer URL: https://www.mododibere.com/travel-show/piemonte-season-trailer/ Last updated: 2026-08-16T03:24:02.000Z One of Italy's most famous wine regions also has its own local language story. ### Texas Season Trailer URL: https://www.mododibere.com/travel-show/texas-season-trailer/ Last updated: 2026-08-16T03:24:25.000Z In the heart of Texas wine country, the last living speakers of Texas German gather at an old schoolhouse to play dominoes. On the Texas High Plains, two friends keep the Chuckwagon cooking tradition alive. ### Calabria Season Trailer URL: https://www.mododibere.com/travel-show/calabria-season-trailer/ Last updated: 2026-08-16T03:25:08.000Z In one of Italy's most underrated wine regions, every bite of food is a spiritual experience. ### ▷S5E1 Wine Doc Face Off (Trailer) URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s5e1-trailer-wine-doc-face-off/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T22:25:09.000Z Announcing a special podcast season with cohost Emilia Aghamirzai, the co-director and DP for Modo di Bere TV. [Modo di Bere TV Trailer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI2pXxz4zg8&ref=mododibere.com) Eight seasons. Three continents. A wine travel show like no other. Every Saturday from Feb 7-April 3, 2026, two seasons of Modo di Bere TV will "face off" to earn the most votes, until the ultimate winner becomes the first season to air of Modo di Bere TV. Two friends spill the prosecco on three years of behind-the-scenes moments from our wine and language travel show. [Support Modo di Bere TV!](https://ko-fi.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) 🍷🎥 This season will focus on travel adventure stories from Modo di Bere TV, co-hosted by Emilia Aghamirzai. The podcast will return to our regular mix of guest interviews and travel adventures in season 6. **Edited Autotranscript** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript RT: The best somm in Italy held this warm egg up to my cheek and said, "Das ist luxury." EMILIA: It *was* the most exciting thing in the world. I had some of the best bites of my life. RT: We met a biodynamic apple producer on this trip that made me want to be a farmer. EMILIA: I have goosebumps. It was the most gorgeous, picturesque.... I FaceTimed my dad to be like, "Look what I look where I am. I need you to see this. I need you to be here with me right now." \[INTRO\] Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about wine and language and the people who keep local culture alive. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. RT: We sipped sparkling wine in a castle. We guzzled the world's finest prosciutto. We baked biscuits by the fire on the Texas High Plains. We drank fresh palm wine from a Calabash in Lagos State. We arm wrestled innkeepers. We learned the local slang. We messed up basic Italian and accidentally brushed our teeth with denture cream. This is Wine Doc Face Off, a special season of the Modo di Bere podcast, where we spill the prosecco on the adventures behind Modo di Bere TV, the wine and language travel show I've been filming since 2023 with my co-host for this podcast season, Emilia Aghamirzai. We filmed eight seasons on three continents. Now you decide which season we edit and premiere first. Don't miss the big announcement. Go to mododibere.com and sign up for the newsletter now. The podcast will be back every Saturday for all of season 5 with behind-the-scenes tales from 3 years of traveling the world in search of local drinks and local sayings. Wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Don't miss your chance to choose which season of Modo di Bere TV will air first. Go to mododibere.com to get involved. Music for the podcast was composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou. Purchase their music at the link in the notes. Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister in collaboration with [Emilia Aghamirzai](https://www.fatchixinc.com/?ref=mododibere.com) and [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) and Rose Thomas Bannister [ Texas vs. Calabria ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s5e2-texas-vs-calabria/) [ The "Tongue-Cutter" Wine ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e14-tazzelenghe-the-tongue-cutter/) ### How to Make Coquito: The Ultimate Guide URL: https://www.mododibere.com/vlog/how-to-make-coquito-the-ultimate-guide/ Last updated: 2026-08-18T01:07:57.000Z Crystal Cruz told her family she wasn't going to make Coquito this year. That didn't last long. "If I do not make for the holidays, my friends and family will haunt me down." ### ▷S4E4 Tazzelenghe: il vino che "taglia la lingua" URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s4e4-tazzelenghe/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T16:53:41.000Z Fabio è uno dei otto produttori che vinificano Tazzelenghe. Grazie a Fabio e ai suoi colleghi, questo vitigno autoctono friulano, estremamente raro, sta vivendo una piccola rinascita. Il nome significa "taglia-lingua" nel dialetto locale. Il vino ha una personalità straordinaria, ricca di complessità, acidità e tannini. Prima dei moderni progressi nella vinificazione e nella viticoltura, l'unico modo per domare l'esuberanza del Tazzelenghe era il tempo. [*Listen in English / Ascolta in inglese*](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-en/s4e14/tazzelenghe-the-tongue-cutter) Ascoltate l'intervista completa con Fabio D'Attimis Maniago Marchio – figlio di un conte e diciottesima generazione a gestire le terre di famiglia – per scoprire perché descrive i vini Tazzelenghe di oggi con una sola parola: eleganza. Per ulteriori informazioni sui vini della famiglia di Fabio, incluse le modalità per visitarli, consultate il seguente sito: [www.contedattimismaniago.it](https://www.contedattimismaniago.it/?ref=mododibere.com) Iscriviti alla newsletter! **Trascrizione generata automaticamente**. (Si prega di scusare gli errori.) View Transcript - Benvenuti a Modo di Bere Italiano, il podcast su bevande e detti locali. Sono la conduttrice Rose Thomas Bannister.Il mio ospite oggi è Fabio D'Attimis Maniago Marchiò, viticoltore del Friuli Venezia Giulia e sostenitore del vitigno rosso Tazzalenghe di cui si contano solo sei ettari piantati in tutto il mondo. L'azienda di famiglia di Fabio Conte d'Attimis Maniago ha una storia vinicola lunga 400 anni.Prima di iniziare l'intervista vorrei ricordarti che Modo di bere è un podcast sopportato dagli ascoltatori. Prenditi un momento per visitare [patreon.com/modibere](http://patreon.com/modibere?ref=mododibere.com) e diventare un sostenitore a pagamento per accedere a contenuti educativi esclusivi su bevande e dialetto. Fabio ed io saremo qui al tuo ritorno.Fabio, una delle prime cose che mi ha affascinata del vino italiano sono le famiglie che mantengono le loro tradizioni a volte da cinque generazioni. Ma il sito web di contento, dice che la vostra storia ha quanto generazioni? 18\. 18 18\. Com'è per te portare avanti una storia così importante? E se avessi deciso di voler fare l'avvocato sarebbe stato un problema. No, vabbè. Eh, sicuramente si sente la pressione perché 18 generazioni comunque sono Sì. un lasso di tempo abbastanza lungo. L'azienda diventa di proprietà della mia famiglia il 15 febbraio del 1585 a seguito di un matrimonio quando tale La Vinia Freschi di Cuccagna sposa Pompeo di Maniago e lei porta in dote l'azienda ed è anche la ragione per cui abbiamo giorno, mese e anno, perché c'è un atto di matrimonio, quindi un foglio di carta stampato che noi abbiamo la fortuna di aver di aver conservato. Quindi teoricamente, diciamo, essendo più moderni, potremmo anche dire che andiamo oltre le 18 generazioni, andando a pescare anche dal lato dal lato femminile, diciamo. Purtroppo i tempi erano quelli che erano, ormai è così che abbiamo cominciato a contare, probabilmente continueremo così. Quindi è è una bella, per me personalmente è una bella responsabilità perché non vuoi ovviamente mai essere la 18ª e ultima generazione. Eh, però una cosa che a me è sempre piaciuto fare, cioè per tornare un po' alla domanda e se avessi voluto fare l'avvocato, se avessi voluto fare l'avvocato avrei fatto l'avvocato, quello indubbiamente da nessuno mi ha mai obbligato a fare questo mestiere, per fortuna, perché essere obbligati a fare un lavoro non è mai non dà mai ottimi risultati. sempre stata una cosa che ho voluto fare. Io ho la fortuna anche di essere cresciuto sostanzialmente accanto all'azienda, quindi volente, onolente era una cosa che faceva parte del mio quotidiano. Vedere bari, botti, vasche, trattori, era era il mio vissuto quotidiano, diciamo. e quindi ci sono cresciuto un po' all'interno, cioè mi è stato un percorso che per me è stato molto naturale in quel senso e ormai sono in azienda da 4 5 anni, 3 4 5 anni, non mi ricordo neanche più e e mi piace mi piace, sono contento, quindi quindi tutto è bene quel che finisce bene. Allora Fabio, ci siamo incontrati allo stand Hatzaleng alla mostra microme mega una mostra speciale di piccoli agricoltori sui vitigni autoctoni a v in Italia curata dal diendagra produci vino a vetini autoctini da vitini autoctini come Ribolla Gialla, Malvasia, Schioppettino e naturalmente Tazzelenghe perché ti interessano così tanto le uvecte allora sì noi coltiviamo In azienda coltiviamo più di 20 varietà diverse di Uve, quindi una buona parte, se non tutti gli autoctoni e anche tantissimi internazionali, Pino Grigio, Merlot, Chardonnay, Sauvignon, Cabernet Merlot, insomma un po' abbiamo una selezione abbastanza completa e quindi penso di poter parlare un po' di di entrambi e a me i vitigni internazionali piacciono molto, cioè a me il Merlot di Butterreo piace moltissimo, il pino grigio secondo me è un vitigno veramente veramente di alto livello, se fatto nella maniera giusta e se i vignetti sono posizionati nelle zone giuste, pur essendo varietà internazionali che sono in Friuli da ormai centinaia di anni, in alcuni casi che hanno trovato un suolo, un terreno, un clima che gli ha permesso veramente di svilupparsi al meglio. Se parliamo di Sovignon, alla fine le tre aree, diciamo, più quotate per fare Sovignon, Saner, Francia, Nuova Zelanda e Friuli. Se parliamo di pino grigio, mediamente il pino grigio di alta qualità è riconosciuto, penso sia abbastanza, insomma, sereno come concetto, viene dalle colline friulane, non viene da altre zone, paradossalmente, e quindi io riconosco alle varietà internazionali di essere varietà di altissimo livello, che possono dare grandissimi vini e che sono qui da secoli, va bene, però non sono comunque varietà autoctone, non sono comunque varietà che si sono adattate, che sono cresciute in friuli e soprattutto che fanno fanno parte, diciamo, della nostra cultura alla stessa maniera. E in quell'ottica io e mi permetto di dire anche i miei genitori e anche chi c'era prima di loro in azienda, abbiamo sempre avuto una preferenza per le varietà autoctone e le abbiamo sempre portate avanti lentamente. Negli anni stiamo mettendo un po' da parte anche le varietà internazionali. Lo chardonet è un vino che praticamente non vinifichiamo più. Eh, una volta facevamo anche rosato, una volta facevamo traminer, tutte varietà che pino bianco, tutte varietà che lentamente stiamo un po' alla volta dismettendo. Ovviamente in agricoltura i tempi sono sono sempre lunghi, eh, e quindi insomma si fa un po' alla volta. non non prenderemo la decisione di eliminare tutti gli internazionali in un colpo solo, sarebbe, insomma, una scelta scellerata, perdonatemi il gioco di parole, però un po' alla volta stiamo andando in quella direzione proprio perché l'autoctono per me ha sempre più valore di essere raccontato, ha sempre più valore di essere esplorato, ha sempre più valore di essere vissuto, soprattutto in un mondo che apprezza il vino, anche perché anche come modo di viaggiare rimanendo seduti in salotto. Se vuoi viaggiare in Friuli, certo, il pino grigio è un buon modo, però il friulano lo è sicuramente di più.Tlang in particolare, come questo gruppo di agricoltori ha iniziato a promuovere? Allora, il gruppo nasce da un'esigenza molto semplice, ovvero che tazzelenghe sono più o meno 6,4 ari in regione, se non sbaglio, e promuovere 6,4 ari già è difficile se sono 6,4\. Se poi diventano, come nel mio caso, più o meno 1 aaro, è diventa molto più complicato. Io faccio 1500, 2000 bottiglie sulle vendemmie buone, quindi insomma promuovere un vino, partendo da quei volumi, ho sì e no la capacità di spedire i campioni ai giornalisti per parlarne e comunque quei campioni pesano. Io non spedisco campioni di tazzelenghe e non apro bottiglie di tazzelenghe senza pensarci su un attimino. perché mi piacerebbe farlo, però purtroppo il volume è quello che è quindi la necessità è semplicemente questa, è quella che se vogliamo presentarlo, se vogliamo raccontarlo, dobbiamo farlo assieme. Se non lo facciamo assieme, non andiamo assolutamente da nessuna parte. E siamo abbastanza fortunati, diciamo, sono abbastanza penso che si sia abbastanza fortunati da poter dire che è una cosa che funziona e funziona anche perché in tutte le aziende è sempre una piccola gemma, diciamo, è sempre quella produzione piccola, limitata, ma di particolare valore e quindi tutti quanti abbiamo l'intenzione di farla conoscere, ma non abbiamo la pretesa di essere la il grande produttore di tazzelenghe, la l'azienda che produce il miglior tazzeleng. Sono tutti ottimi, tazze lenghe, si collabora assieme, si lavora assieme. Molto bene. Abbiamo fatto degustazioni in regione, abbiamo fatto degustazioni fuori regione, abbiamo fatto per svariati anni anche un piccolo stand al vin Italy che comunque, insomma, è la fiera più importante del vin italiano, quindi insomma ha la sua il suo rilievo. Abbiamo la fortuna di aver avuto Jan D'Agata che ha parlato di tazzelenghe e continua per fortuna a parlare di tazzelenghe e perché anche lui, anzi lui per primo forse riconosce nel tazzerenghe un vitigno straordinario, perché c'è anche quello che va detto e il tazzelenghe in sé senza neanche parlare di tutto quello che c'è attorno la storia, la cultura, la tradizione, la rarità. Il tazzelenghe come vino è un vino che per me è straordinario, un vino di un'eleganza invidiabile a tantissime altre varietà che ci sono in Friuli e nel e nel resto del mondo. Yan per primo, diciamo, ha riconosciuto questa dota, nonostante, appunto, la la ristrettezza della produzione e quindi lui è stato il primo a spingerci a a portare avanti questa idea, a a promuovere questi vini nella maniera, insomma, più efficiente, tra virgolette, possibile, nella maniera migliore, meglio possibile. Sei anche presidente della società di Pignolo? Sì, parliamo un po' di pignolo. Sì, il pignolo è un'altra varietà autoctona friulana. Di solito io quando ne parlo la confronto al Barolo del Friuli, diciamo. Un'altra varietà bacca rossa, un'altra varietà da lungo invecchiamento. È una varietà su cui c'è un po' più di produzione, eh, perché sono una sessantina abbondante di ettari, quindi rispetto ai sei sono molti di più. nel grande schema delle cose 60 ari continua a essere poco più di un'azienda, ecco, non non stiamo parlando di numeroni e non un'azienda grande, un'azienda friulana, quindi comunque l'esigenza alla base rimane la stessa e il vitigno rimane di grandissimo valore. E poi quello che a me comunque piace è che si parla di promuovere un vitigno a bacca rossa. Sarà che caratterialmente sono un po' basti al contrario, però in una regione che produce 80% vini bianchi e 20% vini rossi mi piace l'idea che i produttori si stiano, diciamo, eh raggruppando, si stiano unendo dietro a vitigna Bacca Rossa, vitigni, peraltro, anche molto importanti proprio al palato in bocca che sfida un po' l'idea, no, per cui il il Friuli sono i grandi sovignon, vini verticali, il friulano, eccetera, quindi insomma è divertente, diciamo. diciamo e comunque porta avanti un certo tipo di tradizione di di cultura del vino del vino friulano che che sia refosco, che sia Schioppettino, che sia Pignolo, che sia Tazzeleng. A me fa sempre piacere quando un gruppo di produttori si mette assieme per portare avanti un un ideale comune, un vitigno comune. Ecco, c'è una ricchezza di varietà in Fri Venezia, Giulia, no? Sì, senza confini, io penso, nel senso che noi abbiamo Friulano, Ribolla Gialla, Malvasia, eh, Verduzzo, Piccolit, Tazzelenghe, Pignolo, Schioppettino, Refosco dal Peduncolo Rosso, Refoscone, Refosco di Faedis, eh abbiamo il Terrano, cioè poi abbiamo altre varietà che sono molto piccole e di cui magari spesso ci si dimentica. Sì, c'è il Fumat, il cividin, il Picolit Neri, veramente veramente tante. Ecco, ed è bello comunque che tutte le aziende in Friuli porti avanti questa ricchezza, perché alla fine il Friuli ha avuto la fortuna di non diventare mai una zona, una monocultura, no, in cui il Friuli non è mai stato identificato esclusivamente con il friulano, non è mai stato identificato esclusivamente con il pino grigio, non è mai stato identificato prevalentemente con siamo un insieme di eh varietà diverse. Tutte le aziende hanno varietà autoctone, hanno varietà internazionali che convivono e convivono alla grande e io penso sia anche nel carattere un po' del friulano quello che ok, vediamo che il pino grigio è facile da vendere, ci viene bene, il Merl è facile da vendere, ci viene bene, però non faccio solo quello, cioè da parte ci tengo anche il re fosco, ci metto il friulano, ci tengo il pignolo, ci tengo il tazzelenghe, quindi è un po' quello è secondo me ha giocato una grossissima parte in realtà nel salvare tutte queste varietà autoctone, perché se andiamo a cercare nella storia tutte le regioni italiane. Tutte le regioni del mondo avevano tantissime varietà autoctone, solo che sono state messe un po' da parte, sono state accantonate in favore di altre varietà internazionali autoctone che fossero che in quel momento sembrava potessero funzionare da un punto di visità di mercato meglio. E in Friuli questo non è mai veramente successo. Voi se venite in regione e parlate con i produttori, una cosa che vi diranno tutti quanti è che siamo bravi a fare il vino, siamo meno bravi a venderlo ed effettivamente forse anche questa nostra, no, attaccamento alle varietà autoctone è una cosa che ha giocato nel nel preservare varietà come il tazzelenghe o il pignolo, per esempio, anche la ribolla gialla. E com'è possibile di contattarti, visitarti in in Butrio? Come no? E noi siamo a Butterre Butterri a 10 km da Udine. Ehm, il mio indirizzo email è [Fabio@edattimismaniago.it](mailto:Fabio@edattimismaniago.it). Il sito è [contedattimismaniao.it](http://contedattimismaniao.it/?ref=mododibere.com), lì trovate tutte le informazioni. Se volete invece seguirci su Instagram e@ attimismania\_wines.Bon bon. Esatto. C'è cosa di più ti puoi Mah l'unica cosa che posso dire è, visto che insomma ci siamo conosciuti per il tazzelenghe e continuiamo a parlare anche per il pignolo, bevetevini autoctoni, visitate la regione Friuli Venezia Giulia, andate in tutte le cantine che producono tazzelenghe, per esempio, come l'azienda Yakus, Le Due Torri, eh Giampaolo Colutta, Marina Danieli, eh Ronco Margherita, Tenuta Bribus, Piticco e la Viarte. Eh, sono sparse un po' in tutto il Friuli, quindi anche soltanto visitando quelle vedete una grossa parte del Friuli e assaggiate varietà autoctone anche da casa, parlatene con gli amici e fuorce friul. Grazie Fabio, grazie. Grazie per ascoltare. Ovunque tu v e qualunque cosa tu beva, ricorda di goderti la vita e non smettere mai di imparare. Sostienici su Patreon. Prendi la newsletter su [mododivele.com](http://mododivele.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Iscriviti al canale YouTube Modo di Bere per guardare lo spettacolo di viaggio Modo di Bere TV. La musica è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per il gruppo Ou. La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto e registrato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Montato da [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com). ### ▷S4E14 Tazzelenghe: the “Tongue-Cutter” Wine URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e14-tazzelenghe-the-tongue-cutter/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T03:24:52.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-it/s4e4/tazzelenghe-il-vino-che-taglia-la-lingua) Fabio is one of eight producers making wine from Tazzelenghe. Thanks to Fabio and his friends, this ultra-rare Friulian red wine grape is the rise. The name means "The Tongue-Cutter" in the local dialect. The grape has an enormous personality, packed with complexity, acid, and tannin. Before modern improvements in winemaking and wine growing, the only way to tame Tazzelenghe's exuberance was time. Listen to the full interview with Fabio—full name Fabio D'Attimis Maniago Marchio, the son of a Count and the 18th generation to steward his family's land—to learn why he describes today's Tazzenghe wines with one word: Elegance. Rose Thomas met Fabio at Ian D’Agata’s “MicroMega” exhibit at Vinitaly in 2023, where he was pouring Tazzelenghe from all the producers who band together to promote the grape. They met again at Vinitaly in 2024, where she tasted through Fabio’s family’s wines, and again at a tasting of the wines of Friuli-Venezia Giulia in New York City’s Bryant Park. Fabio’s family cellars sound quite breathtaking, do make sure to visit their estate in Buttrio next time you are traveling through the northern Adriatic (hopefully soon!) [www.contedattimismaniago.it](https://mododibere.podbean.com/e/tazzelenghe-the-tongue-cutter-wine/?token=1b7343431f42d7af8759e5712ee58933&ref=mododibere.com) Follow them on Instagram [@attimismaniago\_wines](https://www.instagram.com/attimismaniago%5Fwines/?ref=mododibere.com) Write to Fabio: fabio@conteattimismaniago.it > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DTlZ6siD9-g/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DTlZ6siD9-g/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DTrUXTmjWCU/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DTrUXTmjWCU/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DT3AuI%5FjQYa/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DT3AuI%5FjQYa/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) **Edited autotranscript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript Fabio: Tazzelenghe is a good example. Sometimes people ask me, "But how come there isn't a lot around? Is it maybe because it's very delicate? Is it because it's prone to diseases of sorts?" And I have to answer, it would be nice to say, "No, it's so difficult. Nobody can make it aside from us." But it's not true. It's actually a fairly resistant variety. And why is that? Because it's always been in Friuli. It adapted to a fairly challenging climate for the vine. Tazzelenghe, Pignolo, Schioppettino. All of these varieties have adapted and have survived for a reason. \[Intro\] Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. RT: My guest today is Fabio D'Attimis Maniago Marchiò, a wine maker from Friuli-Venezia Giulia and an advocate for the red wine grape Tazzelenghe of which there are only six hectares planted in the entire world. Fabio's family company Conte D'Attimis Maniago has a history with wine that goes back 400 years. Before we start the interview, I want to remind you that Modo di Bere is a listener-supported podcast. Please take a moment to visit patreon.com/mododibere and become a paid supporter to access exclusive educational content about drinks and dialect. Fabio and I will be here when you get back. \[NOTE: **We are no longer using Patreon!** Become a member [right here](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e8-serena-jost-and-the-mountains/#/portal/) to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\] Fabio, one of the first things that fascinated me about Italian wines is families have been maintaining their agricultural or we should say viticultural traditions for, like, five generations, but the Conte D'Attimis Maniago website says that something about 18 generations. Tell me more about that. Fabio: Yeah, I'm currently the 18th generation. Agriculture is fine at the end of the day. Viticulture is, it's agriculture with a different word, like, more specified, but it's still farming at the end of the day. So I kind of like that. It's nice to keep it as as such, let's say. But yes. Yes. We're lucky enough that we kept records of what happened and what didn't happen. I'm the 18th generation as we were saying before. We acquired the estate on the 15th of February 1585\. We have the exact day and month and year because we acquired it through a marriage. So this lady marries this guy Pompeo de Maniago and she brings the estate into our family. So it's a bit sexist but that's how it went because technically we could even say that we had it since, you know, before then, but, you know, back in the days was the male surname that counted. So here we are. RT: But it was her land. Fabio: Yeah, it was hers. It was hers. Hers her family. for family at least. RT: That's great. Fabio: But yes, since then we've never moved. Always made wine there. Various stages, various things, but with various sizes as well, but always kept a family tradition alive, let's say. RT: What is it like for you to carry around such a long history? What if like what if you decided, "No thanks. I'd like to become a lawyer." Fabio: \[laughs\] Why not? Uh, no. So, it's funny. It's a question I get a lot. Obviously, I don't mind it. I enjoy it. It's like—you feel the pressure. Yes. Because you don't want to be the last generation obviously, but it's always something that I've wanted to to do. You should also take into account the fact that I live literally 100 meters away from the winery itself. Which is where my father has worked all his life, which is where my life revolved around. So I was— first time I I started working full-time in the winery, I was on a computer looking at old documents and news articles and stuff that was published throughout the decades, let's say, and I found a an article written in I think it was 2002ish, something like that, about this journalist who came to visit the winery and he wrote up this piece. What I remember about it is that at some point he was making his way through the barriques and the wooden barrels and so on. And whilst, I don't know, inspecting it, I don't know how, but he found a little toy car and and he described the scene saying, "Oh, I found this toy uh between the barriques. It's a good sign to me because it means that, you know, there are kids here that will probably take on the family tradition." So, it's always been something that I've never really questioned. So, I have a degree in economics actually, so I could have gone on and done whatever in any other industry. Economics has a \[inaudible\] that is a fairly versatile degree. And for a very short time I wanted to study law. That would have been the worst mistake of my life. But let's put that aside. I questioned it \[wine\] at some point in my life. But I've always wanted to do it anyways. It's always been something that was there. And I think it's and I'm happy it's been I've been working full-time in the winery for about four years I would say something like that. And I'm enjoying it so far. So. RT: That's great. So what is your main role with the winery today? Fabio: It's a family business. So you do a bit of everything. So I do labels design labels, buy labels, buy bottles, buy corks. So all of the bureaucratic side of things. Mostly, I would say that what I do is export manage management and sales... RT: Okay. Fabio: ...outside of Italy. Because as a company, as many other older companies, we've been for a very long time focused on Italy. Which is fine, like, at the end of the day. Nowadays, it's easy. Like you hop on a plane you get here, you have emails, you have WhatsApp, you have you have means to contact and get in contact with everyone from all over the world. In the '50s, not that easy. I don't even know if a thing in the '50s. And even then, how did you find an importer? And after you found the importer, how do you get paid exactly? RT: Right! Fabio: Well, at some point it has to happen. So, shipping, shipping time, I have no idea what shipping times were were supposed to be. So, you always developed every older winery that you have encountered I think said some similar things. You always start with a local domestic market and then you start to expand with the closest market: Austria, Germany, and then you move on to other things, like, right now, the US for example. And I'm aided by the fact that I can speak a bit a bit of English, and I can speak a bit of German, whilst my dad just doesn't. He just speaks French. RT: He speaks French. Fabio: No, he speaks French. The old language of wine was French. Wasn't English. It wasn't surely wasn't German. RT: Right. Right. And French and Italian wine makers have a long history of working together and which I find really interesting. And of course there are a lot of French grapes in the Friuli-Venezia Giulia region where your family makes wine. But you guys specialize in the indigenous vines in Ribolla Gialla, Malvasia, Schioppettino and of course Tazzelenghe. So why are those indigenous vines so important to your family? Fabio: So it's not like to say that international grapes are bad. I a big fan of Merlot for example from from the area of Buttrio. I think Merlots from Buttrio are amazing. I really like Pinot Grigio, as a matter of fact, when it's done well. I think it's a great variety to grow and all of these varieties have been there for centuries at this point. So even though they're not international, they're surely not that far away from being a native variety. We've studied them, replicated them in a way that adapts to our soil, our land, our climate, but still they're not native. So on the one hand, I like them. On the other, I have to admit that it's still not something that is indigenous to the land. It's still something that hasn't fully adapted to our terroir, to our soil, to our climate. Tazzelenghe is a good example. Sometimes people ask me, but how come there isn't a lot around? Is it maybe because it's very delicate? Is it because it's prone to diseases of sorts? And I have to answer, it would be nice to say, no, it's so difficult. Nobody can make it aside from us. But it's not true. It's actually a fairly resistant variety. It doesn't suffer that much. It's fairly constant in terms of production. And and why is that? That's what some someone might ask. Because it's always been in Friuli-Venezia Giulia. It adapted to a fairly challenging climate for the vine. Friuli is a rainy region. Used to be the rainiest region of Italy for a very long time. And rain means diseases. It means mold. It means that you have to be careful in general when growing plants or growing vines. Tazzelenghe, Pignolo, Schioppettino, all of these varieties have adapted and have survived for a reason. The reason is that they were constantly in production. Nowadays were very like geek about wines and we tasted and have the all of these different procedure to make a good wine. Back in the days the important thing was to make decent acceptable wine. That was it. It was part of the culture, was part of your your everyday meal centuries and decades. And and that that's what the most important thing was, finding a grape, a variety that was constant and both from a quantity perspective and also from a quality perspective, obviously. RT: So, Fabio, we met at the Tazzelenghe stand in the MicroMega exhibit at Vinitaly, which is a giant wine fair that happens every spring in Verona. This exhibit is curated by Ian D'Agata, who's a expert on native Italian grapes. So I want to know about Tazzelenghe, the wine, and also about this group of advocates that started working together to promote it. Fabio: Yeah. So Tazzelenghe is a grape. It's probably the most rare native variety that you can find in Friuli-Venezia Giulia, at least \[for a\] red skinned grape, but I think also white. Honestly, it's very interesting grape because it has a very interesting story and because it's a very interesting wine. I'll start with the wine and then we'll go ahead with the story because at the end of the day, the wine is the most important thing. Then you can build up. What I really love about Tazzelenghe is the extraordinary elegance that it inherently carries. It's a big wine. Tazzelenghe is always a big wine. Doesn't matter who you go to. There are six hectares of Tazzelenghe. As we said before, there are about eight producers. So there is not much to taste, but every one of us makes \[a\] very important wine, a very big wine. And when you encounter a big wine, sometimes it can be a bit harder to drink. It can be a bit more daunting, a bit more difficult to enjoy, which is not something that I'm a fan of. RT: In terms of acid, in terms of tannin, in terms of... Fabio: In terms of body, in terms, how big it is in the mouth, in terms of how many different aromas you feel. Sometimes people are afraid of this complexity. If you think about it, most of the wine that people drink is what we in the wine world might consider fairly easy-going wines, very drinkable wines, not overly exaggerated or concentrated wines. Whilst Tazzelenghe has has a very rich and complex nose. It has a very big palate so the taste stays in the mouth for a very very long time. It's it's got a lot of body. It's usually one of the last wines when when you come to my winery and taste wines. It's usually one of the last wines we taste for this exact reason because it goes above everything else pretty much. And sometimes these kind of wines tend to be a bit too much. What I like about Tazzelenghe, as we said before, is the elegance, the acidity in the mouth, the nice balsamic notes in the nose amongst the many other notes that you find in the nose keep it very fresh, keep it very drinkable still in in in its category. So that's what I really really love about Tazzelenghe. To me, if I had to define Tazzelenghe in one word, the only word that comes to mind would be elegance, basically. It's also got a very interesting story. Tazzelenghe the name comes from the dialect the Friulian dialect: "Tazze-lenghe," tongue-cutter, because when it's young the tannins are so strong and so prevalent that the feeling in the mouth it's as if it was cutting your tongue. So it's got this beautiful name. Me as as, let's say, my family is particularly connected with Tazzelenghe also because the first time that you read the word "tazzelenghe" in a book or in general writing, it was in 1823 when the first catalog of vines of Friuli-Venezia Giulia and a small portion of Veneto was published. It was a catalog that was asked \[for\] by the Austro-Hungarian Empire, because at the time we were Austrians, and it was published by a guy called Pietro di Maniago. Pietro Maniago was an ancestor of mine. So it's again, this double link, not just the wine itself, but also the history of the variety that you know keeps me attached to this this vine in particular. But aside for that, I think even even if we put aside all the stories, the fancy things that we can tell each other, the wine it's speaks for itself. It's just an amazing wine. RT: So, what about this group of producers? There are seven producers \[correction: eight\] today making Tazzelenghe. And you work together to promote the wine. That's how we met, when you were not just showing your own wines at this fair, but you had several Tazzelenghes back to back so that that people could taste. So, what's going on with those efforts? I'm really interested when a group of farmers does this to try to valorize an undersung grape in their region. Fabio: The idea comes from a basic need to promote a grape that nobody knows. Even in Friuli, people don't know about Tazzelenghe. I get sommeliers from Italy asking, "I've heard about this grape but I've never had the chance to taste it." They might they might have been sommeliers for like decades, but they never had the chance to find, they, you don't find it. I make 1500 bottles a year in total, I think altogether we probably make 9,000 bottles a year. It's literally nothing. So, how do you promote on your own a variety like that? You simply can't. With this amount of of soil, with that surface area, you just can't do it on your own. You have to do it together. And I think it was easier to do it with Tazzelenghe than when with other varieties also because Tazzelenghe for all of the producers is a special wine. It's not an everyday wine. It's not the wine that, it's not, your—Pinot Grigio. Okay, not to—again, I really like Pinot Grigio, as a matter of fact, but still \[Tazzelenghe is\] something that is reserved for a special occasion. It's something that you have people taste, but you explain to them it's something that you're passionate about. So, it's not something that can ever make you fight about it. It's it's a common ground, in a way: this love for this specific, odd, niche variety that not many people know and not many people have ever tasted in their lifetimes. And I think it's a necessity, if you want to move forward—to go back to the to your previous question about international varieties and native varieties: as we said before, I have a degree in economics. Sadly, but someone has to have it. My point is: Pinot Grigio. You can make good Pinot Grigios everywhere in many places, not everywhere. You can find good Sauvignons from France, you can find good Sauvignon from New Zealand, Cabernet, you can find good Sauvignons in in the US, you can find them in many places of the world. Merlot, you can find good Merlot everywhere. Tazzelenghe! you find it in Friuli. Malvasia. You find it in Friuli. Pignolo. You find it in Friuli. You don't find it somewhere else. So, it's it's also this uniqueness that I think needs to be enhanced, needs to be uh put under a spotlight, let's say. And I think Friuli has been doing it in a very good way. Tazzelenghe has its own group that tries to move uh and and promote this variety in various ways, shapes or form. Whenever we taste Tazzelenghe, and I think all of the other producers do it as well, when we talk about Tazzelenghe, we don't forget to mention other wineries that you know might do it and it's easy to point them in that direction on once you're in the region. We've done fairs together with a Tazzelenghe booth dedicated solely to Tazzelenghe in Vinitaly. We've done tastings in the region and outside of the region as well. Ian D'Agata was a big big help \[with\] that. We've done even a tasting in the US embassy in Rome at some point. So that's what we tried to do. But the region, the whole region is actually doing this. So we were talking about Pignolo before. Pignolo has an association as well. Pignolo has an association as well. They do a world Pignolo day on the 20th of March. They do events as well. We do events as well. I make also Pignolo. I should be the president of the association. So yes. It's something that I think also, due to a new generation of wine makers going in Friuli which is gaining traction and becoming more and more prevalent. These sorts of partnership\[s\], however you want to call them, it doesn't matter, are becoming more and more important. People are realizing that we are against a very big and wide ocean of wine and if we want to stand out we need to do it together. You cannot do it on your own. And it's something that we are getting now, but if you think about history the Barolo boys did exactly the same thing. RT: I think, even, for a local example, it's on the radar of New York sommeliers, such as myself, the Schioppettino grape and the efforts to valorize that grape from producers like Ronchi di \[Cialla\] for instance. Do you feel that once one grape, besides these international grapes, is shown to be a market success, that that gives kind of a a boost to other efforts to to revitalize some additional grapes in the region? Fabio: For sure. I I'm confident that that's what's going to happen. We're talking about six hectares, so it's not a lot, but I'm planting some more. Another company's planting some more. I know that a new company that wasn't making it before has started making it. It's still not selling it. So, you know, something is moving half an hectare here, half an hectare there. Not massive numbers, but you need to start somewhere. And once you show people that it's doable, that you can actually do it. Yes: it's difficult to sell Tazzelenghe, because people don't know— What am I going to hear in this few days that I'm going to spend in the US that I will spend with salesmen and traveling to accounts and so on? "Ah, it's difficult because nobody orders wine that they don't know." Yes, that's true. But it's still doable. And if you don't try, you will never know. And once you've shown—we can talk about Tazzelenghe, we can talk about Pignolo, we can talk about Ribolla Gialla, it doesn't matter. Once you show that it's possible, then obviously other people will do it because I'm not the only one who who would rather drink a glass of an indigenous variety from Friuli, from its own land, than you know your average international—"average international." And again! I don't want to say anything bad about international varieties. I grow them and I love them. RT: I'm not dogmatic about that either. My love for Merlot, for instance, which has found a wonderful terroir in Friuli-Venezia Giulia, I don't think diminishes my fascination for the indigenous varieties of the region. But just, Merlot, doesn't need my help. Merlot is doing fine. You know—Sideways aside. It doesn't need to be talked about as much as as Tazzalenghe. \[music\] RT: I just wanted to say, that I think, what a lot of people don't necessarily understand, is how many scientific advances have been made in terms of grape growing, in terms of wine-making that have made it possible economically for farmers and winemakers to invest time in certain indigenous grapes that maybe were left behind for reasons of lower production and and things like this. So, I think that's kind of a wonderful development that people are starting to realize. Like, oh, okay, you know, maybe this takes a little bit of special management, but it's worth it. Fabio: Exactly. Yeah. RT: Give me some "recommend if you like" for Tazzelenghe. I mean, I think of it as like a fantastic, like, big steak wine, you know, and I know that a lot of people think about the white wines from Friuli-Venezia Giulia, particularly from the Collio region, but there's also some really great big reds like Tazzelenghe, like Refosco, like Pignolo that I would love to be on more people's radar. So, what do you, if, who are your Tazzelenghe fans? What are they drinking now, who might want to discover it? Fabio: Tazzelenghe is a very big wine. So it needs, it's best if paired with, you know, a big steak. If you were from a rural area I would say boar or some like wild animal of sorts because that's, again, that's even bigger. You need, anyways, I would prefer it with a bit of like a meat that has a bit of fat in there. The acidity cuts through and it's a great pairing but you need something that has, that can stand up to the wine. Let's put it like that. People drink Tazzelenghe because, firstly, they taste Tazzelenghe at first because they've never heard of it. Even yesterday we we met at this event in Bryant Park and most people that approached me and asked me about Tazzelenghe it was because they didn't, they've never heard of it. They knew maybe that it was a grape, but a grape that, they've never tasted it. So they said let me try this. But tasting it is a is the easy part for me. It's easy. The question is, are you going to drink the second glass? Are you going to actually order it? Did you like it? Really truly like it. And I think Tazzelenghe achieves this this result in general. In general, whether it's mine or it's someone else's. As you as you were saying before, yes, Tazzelenghe, the reason why there are only six hectares of Tazzelenghe, it's not because it's a difficult plant to grow. It's not because it made a bad wine or it was an unreliable vine. It's just because you need to wait a bit. You need a bit of patience because when it when Tazzelenghe is too young, what you might, the problem you might face are the tannins. You you have to fight against its name at some point and you need to avoid having wine that is undrinkable and that you know dries your whole mouth and you need to drink a glass of water after you had a a sip of that thing. That's not probably the aim of of wine in general. In the, back in the days, in the '60s, '70s, '80s when wine consumption in Italy was very, very high, you didn't have time to wait five, six, seven, eight years before making a Tazzelenghe, before making a palatable wine, let's say. So what you had to do was change variety basically. That's how your Merlot, your Cabernet got bigger in the area. Because Merlot for example are very reliable every year. They make a decent amount of of grapes and they make a almost always an okay wine. Maybe not every vintage is extraordinary, but every vintage is okay. Tannins are not a problem. Acidity is not a problem. It's always very reliable. It's it's a it's a great go-to, let's say, for for a winemaker. So, that's that's the reason why \[Tazzelenghe\] got, let's say, left behind. Late '80s, '90s, 2000s, that's when we as winemakers started to, and producers, \[were\] starting to focus more on quality in general in within the region. And that's when you that's when you start to go back to \[Tazzelenghe\]. In Friuli, there is another issue. Friuli, as you said, is mostly well known for white wines, Pinot Grigio, Sauvignon \[Blanc\], Ribolla Gialla, Malvasia Istriana, these sort of varieties. 80% as a matter of fact, of the total production of the region, is white wine still. And then the second problem is that we have a bunch of native varieties. We we don't just have you know Sangiovese. We have: Friulano. Malvasia. Ribolla Gialla. Verduzzo. Picolit. Pignolo. Tazzelenghe. Schioppettino. Refosco dal Peduncolo Rosso. Refoscone. Refosco di Faedis. Then if you move a bit you got also Terrano. You got the very tiny productions, almost completely forgotten ones. Picolit. Picolit Neri. Fumat. Ucelut. You have an abundance of native varieties that is, I think, mostly unparalleled, even in Italy. And all of these varieties are grown. Let's put aside Picolot Neri, Fumat and Ucelut. The other are easy to find. You can find them in the region. You can find them also in the US, as a matter of fact. You had to pick and choose something. Average Friulian winery will have probably 10 hectares and 12 varieties, but there is a like there is a lo—stop point where you need to say, okay, "12 varieties is fine. Less than an hectare, per, is fine, but I can't do 15\. I can't do 25." And that's how maybe Tazzelenghe got a bit left behind. You needed to choose something. RT: And economically, it's difficult to invest in something and then wait six years to be able to sell it. Fabio: Yeah, of course. RT: I mean, that's why you see whiskey producers making gin. When I was in Scotland, I noticed that a lot of the Scotch producers were making gin because that's something that you don't have to age. Fabio: No. RT: So you you can start getting getting revenue. Well, I am curious because one of the reasons that indigenous grape revitalization is so important is because of climate change and how that's affecting wine around the world. And you're seeing people experimenting with planting different varieties in almost a feverish way. And I'm curious about how to Tazzelenghe might do in a region like the Fingerlakes in upstate New York for instance where it's cold and wet. I recently was able to interview Elisabetta Foradori from the Dolomites and she helped revitalize the Teroldego variety and this is now being planted. I've now, just, in my work on the show, I have tasted Teroldgeo from three continents not just Foradori but I tasted a Teroldego from Kalasi Cellars from Texas and, up in the Finger Lakes, actually tasted a Teroldego that's planted in Australia, by the Living Roots winery, who also make wine in Australia. How would you see Tazzalenghe potentially fitting in for producers around the world who are experimenting with more indigenous Italian varieties as they diversify their plantings in this time of climate change? Fabio: To me that's a very big question because wine... like, you got the grapes. Yes. But there are various aspect that transform, let's say the grape—or the vine, better—into the actual grape, and then wine. There is climate, obviously, there is a variety you're growing. There is climate, there is a type of soil, but there is also like the action of of the of the winemaker. The decisions that that you you pick and choose that are based on uh sort of a culture, a palate, a taste, that is different from even in Italy, even from one region to the other. Taste is very different. We're not even talking about different continents. And now you've brought into into discussion, even different continents. And yes, there is Schippettino in Oregon, by the way. I cannot remember the name of the winery, Bell something. And to me, the question is, okay, maybe from a climate standpoint, it can work, and maybe it works better than Syrah, Cabernet, Pinot Grigio, Merlot or whatever. The question is what is Tazzelenghe? What is Ribolla Gialla? What is Teroldego? Is Teroldgeo just a grape? Or is Teroldego also something more? iso the way in which the producers of that area have always interpreted Teroldego, which is still, not, let's say, cemented. It's something that changes every year. For example, in the late '90s, we used to do quite a bit of of drying on the, on the Tazzelenghe. We \[ourselves\]. Then we moved towards, just, maturation, dryings on on the plant itself. A late harvest, let's say. RT: I noticed some people making a "ripasso" from Refosco! Fabio: Yeah. Yeah. No, no, it's it's all techniques that you can do, and it's not, nothing is written in in stone we say in Italian. I don't know if it translates well in English, but nothing certain. Things are moving. But my question is, still: can you call it Refosco dal Peduncolo Rosso if it's managed on a different soil, in a different climate, from, especially, my point is, a different person. Someone that has no connection whatsoever to the original history of the grape? Question mark! I do not know. I don't have an answer to that. RT: I mean there's a reason that you are especially excited about the indigenous varieties. They've had longer to adapt to— Fabio: Friuli! RT: —to your climate than Merlot, even though Merlot has had a couple hundred years. But in a sense, those grapes are still catching up in terms of, also, plant mutations and things that create this local expression. You would say. Maybe those things are in a little bit of, push-pull. Fabio: But maybe you can find, maybe you can even find an area that is very similar to to the soil of Colli Orientali, or with a similar climate to Colli Orientali, that is as rainy as, on average. And and again, I don't want to seem like I have an answer to that, but you're making different choices. Cabernet in Italy is a thing. Cabernet in the US, it's a totally different wine, even though the grape is very similar. Chardonnay, similar thing. So question is, can you call the wine Tazzelenghe even though the grape is exactly the same? I don't know. I don't know. I'm excited to see people plant it overseas because I'm always excited when people plant native varieties. Doesn't matter where they plant it. And I hope they grow. I've had a chance to taste a couple of Ribolla Gialla, Friulano, maybe in Washington, in the Seattle area. There is a winery owned by an old Friulian guy who then pass it on to someone else, and they still have a couple of of vineyards of Friulano and Ribolla Gialla, and they make an old blend which was was very very interesting. But surely a different uh interpretation of the grape compared to the one we do in back home, let's say. Was a great wine as a matter of fact! RT: So it's exciting to see these indigenous varieties planted around the world, but also wine is not like corn! It's got a lot more factors going into the production and the growing and, the "terroir," as they say. It's not an interchangeable product to— Tazzelenghe from from one place versus another, which is certainly an important point in in terms of some of the export problems that we're having now in the United States. Can you teach us some modo di dire from Friuli? Fabio: I won't give you a modo di dire. I will give you an expression that you hear, often times, from people, which is something that people joke on me, because I use it quite a lot, actually. Which is, "Bon bon." RT: "Bon bon." Fabio: "Bon Bon." It's when you're talking, you know, you're you're talking about whatever, and at some point, you know, conversation becomes moot or you know what you have to do. You got to a point where the conversation has to end. Say, okay, "Bon bon." And then you go about your business, let's say. RT: Oh, that's so funny. I love that. That's beautiful. How would you spell that? Fabio: B O N space B O N. RT: That's hilarious. I love that. Thank you. Fabio: It's like "Bene bene." Something like that. RT: You're like you're like, "Okay, okay." Yeah. Oh, I like that. Tell tell me a little bit more about visiting your estate and the experience that people would have to come to your winery and maybe a little general Friuli-Venezia Giulia travel advice. Fabio: My winery is located with near Udine, is in the center of Friuli-Venezia Giulia. Best way is to rent a car. Honestly. There are two main airports. One is Venezia—Venice—and the other one is Trieste. Sometimes overlooked. But with a connection, you can get there. You either hop on a train, or you grab a car. which is probably the best thing to do. And then I my personal recommendation is just to travel. Like, find a road that you like on top of a hill and go and go and go. You will be at some point in front of a winery. Stop there. Uh politely say, "Do you have time? Can I taste a few wines?" 99% of the people will say yes, unless you're coming in September. September is harvest time. Please don't do it. But in any other period of the year, it's more than fine, more than welcome. We love our jobs and we usually like to talk about it. In terms of recommendations, I surely recommend you to visit the wineries that make Tazzelenghe. I cannot avoid that! One of us, is, us. Then there is Marina Danieli in Buttrio. Then there is the winery Gianpaolo Colutta in Manzano which is very close by. Then you have Jacùss near Cividale. Cividale is a beautiful little town that I would highly recommend everyone who is in the region to visit. Then you got La Viarte in Prepotta. And if you're in the area you know that Schioppettino is very very big. So you might also taste some Schioppettino di Prepotto once you're there. Then there is a winery called the Le Due Torrii in \[Trecisimo\]. Everything is very close in Friuli. I'll stop saying that! Then you have there's always a few that I skip for some reasons. Ah then if you're going south towards let's say Palmanova, those areas, you have Tenuta Pribus, also make Tazzelenghe, and you also have Ronco Margherita which makes some beautiful Tazzlelenghe. RT: Oh that's great. It sounds like a road trip to me. Fabio: Yeah, it does. You start from the hills and then you go back towards the sea. RT: So, Fabio, where can people follow you, find your website, make a plan to to visit you? Fabio: Website is is contedattimismaniago.it. We have Instagram which is @maniago\_wines. If not, fabio@contedattimismaniago.it. That's my email, and I usually reply within a couple of days, usually. RT: Okay, that's great. Well, I'll make sure to put that information in the notes and, thank you so much for coming on the show! It's been a real pleasure getting to know you and talking about Tazzelenghe. Fabio: Pleasure was all mine. RT: Wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. \[outro\] Support us on Patreon. Grab the newsletter at mododibere.com and subscribe to the YouTube channel @ mododibere to watch the travel show Modo di Bere TV. Music for the show was composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou. Purchase their music at the link in the notes. \[NOTE: **We are no longer using Patreon!** Become a member [right here](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e8-serena-jost-and-the-mountains/#/portal/) to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\] Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Season 5 Trailer ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s5e1-trailer-wine-doc-face-off/) [ Wayne Young ❤️ Refosco ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e13-wayne-young-friulian-wine-podcast/) ### ▷S4E13 Wayne Young Wants You To Drink Refosco URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e13-wayne-young-friulian-wine-podcast/ Last updated: 2026-09-06T01:59:20.000Z Wayne Young's show La Taverna is more than just a podcast; it's an oral history of the wines of Friuli-Venezia Giulia. Through interviews with the winemakers of this beautiful region in northeast Italy, some in English, some in Italian, Wayne is bottling the story of the region he loves so much he moved there from the US after working one harvest in 1998\. This episode references strong language as well as strong drink! *Note from Rose Thomas:* Wayne and I are doing a podcast swap! I interviewed Wayne on my show, he interviewed me on his! We know that our listeners appreciate Italian wines, so this is a chance to introduce you to a great new podcast. To hear about my travels in Friuli-Venezia Giulia and how my first trip there helped inspire the Modo di Bere project, go to [latavernafriuli.com](https://latavernafriuli.com/?ref=mododibere.com) or search for La Taverna in your podcast player. Learn some Friulian phrases: [https://www.youtube.com/@felicimafurlans](https://www.youtube.com/@felicimafurlans?ref=mododibere.com) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSQHzzhgM4E/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSQHzzhgM4E/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSbNoioDdqw/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSbNoioDdqw/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSaIO6UiBbT/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by Wayne Young (@la\_taverna\_podcast)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSaIO6UiBbT/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) **Expand for Autotranscript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript ## 0:00 — Wine is everywhere in Friuli WY: And wine is such an important part of the landscape here. Once you start going towards Cormons or you start going towards Cividale, you're going to be driving through wine country. So you're going to be amongst vines. Even on some of the larger roads. You're going to just have vines along the side of the road on the statale. So you're going to see them there. So it's part of the landscape. And that's one of the reasons why I really love it here. And wine is always on your mind when you're talking and when you're traveling through Friuli-Venezia Giulia. ## 0:37 — Welcome to Modo di Bere RTB: Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. You might have noticed that season four of this podcast has been a bit of a theme of wine from Friuli-Venezia Giulia in northern Italy. We're continuing the theme today with Wayne Young, an American wine professional who worked a harvest in Friuli-Venezia Giulia, fell in love with the region, married his Italian girlfriend, and moved to Udine permanently in 2002\. Wayne now has a podcast dedicated to the wines of Friuli-Venezia Giulia and it's called La Taverna. Wayne and I are doing something special today. I'm interviewing Wayne on my podcast and he's interviewing me on his podcast. We're releasing both episodes on the same day because we know our audiences care about Italian wine regions. And we want you to find out about a great new show. So before we start the interview, please take a moment now. Go to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. Search for La Taverna. Hit that follow button thing and download the latest episode. And I'm excited to welcome the fans of La Taverna who are listening today on Wayne's recommendation. So welcome, Wayne. ## 2:16 — A podcast swap with La Taverna WY: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. It's a really nice experience to be here, and it's really nice to share a podcast with you. RTB: Yes, I am really happy. WY: My first. My first collab. RTB: Yes, exactly. WY: Cheers. ## 2:27 — Two Italian Wine Podcasts RTB: Cheers to Italian wine shows. And to the wines of Friuli-Venezia Giulia. WY: Exactly. Exactly, exactly. ## 2:35 — What's in Wayne's glass: Ronchi di Cialla RTB: What are we drinking here, Wayne? WY: What are — I don't know, what are you drinking? I am drinking one of my favorite wines in Friuli. And also, full disclosure, a client — we're talking about Ronchi di Cialla. Nice. Okay. And this is their Cialla Rosso, which is their blended red wine. It's half Schioppettino and half Refosco dal Peduncolo Rosso, which are my two favorite red grapes here. In Friuli-Venezia Giulia. So, yeah, I figured I would open something red and something indigenous for our talk today. So I couldn't think of anything better than Cialla Rosso to drink with you today. RTB: I love that producer, too. I love Schioppettino. I love the story about how that producer, right, kind of brought it back into stability in the region after it had been undersung and endangered. It's just a delicious grape that makes these sort of soft in the mouth, very morbido, in my opinion, as they would say in Italian wine tasting, kind of dark purple wine. Not too tannic. Some interesting fruit notes. And then Refosco for me is like drinking a Christmas tree. In fact, that's kind of how we met. We were both on, like, social media somewhere, and people will ask, like, what's your favorite wine? And you kept saying Refosco dal Peduncolo Rosso. That's like, I have to meet this guy. WY: That's my — it's my mission in life to make people drink more Refosco. ## 4:00 — What's in RT's glass: a Malvasia from Brda RTB: Well, I'm drinking a white. Actually, there's probably some skin contact here, and I'm cheating. Except I'm not, because I went over to my wine section where I have some wine that I've brought home from my travels, and I thought to myself, oh, I know that I still have a few bottles from Friuli-Venezia Giulia. And you know what? They were all from Brda. But in my mind it was one thing. So maybe we can talk a little bit more about this kind of cross-border. But in fact, this is why this is such a good example is this is a Malvasia from Ferdinand in Brda. Okay. You can see that it has that. Well, maybe you can see it. It has the name spelt in Italian and Slovenian. And this producer Ferdinand makes a wine with a producer across the border, Gratisciuta, a sparkling wine that they bottle under the EU designation to show. WY: Right. RTB: That they don't think that border makes sense to be there, which is a whole story. So it's — and it's called Sine Finis Without Borders. So that was one of the first wines that I heard about that made me want to visit this region. And Malvasia is so aromatic and lovely and they grow it all over Italy — they also have it in different kinds of Malvasia. It's whole family thing. But there are aromatic, luscious wines, and more aromatic meaning floral and I love them. WY: Not quite as aromatic as like a Sauvignon or something like that, but still. RTB: Yeah, yeah, more in the floral than the grass category perhaps. I always get notes of like irises in the springtime. Is kind of my Malvasia note. It's pretty fun. But, Wayne, I want to know, do you have — I want to know more about your background and what you do there. But I want to also ask you if you have a local saying to share with us. ## 5:52 — Italian slang is all about one body part WY: A local saying — there's a couple and everybody loves it when I speak Italian because I speak Italian with a really heavy American accent. Obviously, you know, kind of like Arnold Schwarzenegger. You never lose the accent, right? No matter how hard you try. And people find it charming. So I sort of take advantage of that. They find it even more entertaining when I speak Friulano. Oh, you speak Friulano. RTB: How marvelous. WY: Very little. I know a couple of phrases in Friulano. So I'm going to give you a couple of phrases in Friulano. The first one that you learn when you get here, if anybody teaches you Friulano, the first thing they're going to teach you is the way to say, "Come stai? How are you?" And in Friulano, it's "Cemût?" Exactly. But there's always a little addition on that. So basically, what Friulanos will say and what I've been taught is you say "Ce mût le bighe?" RTB: "Ce mût le bighe?" What does that mean? WY: Yes, it means how's your penis? RTB: Oh. I'm always finding a new penis all over Italy. It never stops. WY: Exactly. RTB: Thank you. WY: Italy. And the response is "Cjalde ma flape." RTB: Okay. Translate. WY: Warm but soft. RTB: Oh, my God, that's so funny. WY: And have you met any of the Petrussas? Paolo Petrussa, who is a friend of mine. He, every time we see each other, he comes right up to me and he says "Ce mût le bighe?" And I respond "Cjalde ma flape," and he laughs his head off. He thinks it's the funniest thing ever. RTB: Oh my God, that's so funny. You're going to have to text that to me so I can make sure to spell it correctly in the subtitles. This is a really important saying. Oh my. ## 8:13 — Friulian modo di dire: "You have more ass than sense" WY: God. Oh, it's a very important saying, it's the first thing you learn in Friulano. The other one that I wanted to give you in Friulano is the Friulano phrase that basically encapsulates my life here in Friuli-Venezia Giulia. And the phrase is "Tu "Tu âs plui cûl che sintimint. Tu âs plui cûl che sintimint," means you are luckier than you are smart. You have more ass than sense is the literal translation. You have more ass than sense. RTB: I think it works out to a compliment, to be real. WY: The only reason that you're successful is because you're lucky, not because you're actually talented. So. RTB: That's probably true. ## 8:49 — Learn Friulano Online WY: But here's what you got to do if you want to find these fantastic Friulano sayings, you got to go on YouTube and you have to look for this series of videos that were made. They're like a minute and a half each and they're called Tacons, T-A-C-O-N-S. And there's a guy there with a beard, and I can't remember his name right now, but I met him. He was a really nice guy. Unfortunately, he passed away. But he does these fantastic things where it says, in Italian, we say this. In Friulano, we say this, which means absolutely not the same thing, but it's very, very funny. And you'll get all the Friulano you need from those videos. RTB: Oh, that's wonderful. I'm definitely going to link that in the show notes. Check it out. I also want to let people know, since we are talking about Friulano, that I have in this Friuli-Venezia Giulia heavy season, I have a whole episode which is season four, episode three of this podcast, which is with Dr. William Cisilino. Who is the director of ARLeF that promotes the Friulian language. And it's all about Friulian, that entire episode. So if you want to know more about what language we're discussing, you can go there, but we're going to talk about some wine. So you know what I would really love? Because we do also in the season, I've got another episode that this marvelous, very granular, deep dive, incredible scholarly resource, incredible for people like me who go crazy about lots and lots of different rare grapes, which is the interview with Paul Balke earlier in the season. I want to know more about your story, but before we get into it, I want to know if you can kind of bring to life for me just if someone was going to visit this region, like, what does it look like? What does it feel like? What does it smell like? What are, you know, what are these? What is it about some of these wines and the way they taste that caused you to change your life? Give us some sensory. ## 10:34 — Growing up without mountains in New Jersey WY: It's a really weird thing because all of my life, when I was growing up in New Jersey. I grew up in New Jersey. So I did not grow up in a place where there were real mountains. I grew up on the East Coast, so we had hills, which we called mountains, but they weren't really mountains. And I always dreamt of living in a place where I could see snowcapped mountains from my house. And I'm living that dream right now, because from my apartment I can see out of my kitchen window, you know, Montenero and Matajur and all of these other mountains that are sort of surrounding Friuli that in these days are covered with snow. ## 12:08 — Life in Udine So that's a big thing that I'm super grateful for when I think about my life here in Friuli, is that that's what I wanted to have. And now I have it. But, you know, Friuli has it all. Friuli has, you know, plains, it has rolling hills and it has mountains, and it goes all the way from the sea, all the way up to some of the highest peaks in the Alps. So, yeah, I mean, you're going to find everything you could possibly want here. And wine is such an important part of the landscape here. Once you start going towards Cormons or you start going towards Cividale, you're going to be driving through wine country. So you're going to be amongst vines. Even on some of the larger roads. You're going to just have vines along the side of the road on the statale. So you're going to see them there. So it's part of the landscape. And that's one of the reasons why I really love it here. And wine is always on your mind when you're talking and when you're traveling through Friuli-Venezia Giulia. I live in the city of Udine, which is the biggest — really, the biggest city in Friuli-Venezia Giulia is Trieste. But that's not sort of considered Friuli. That's considered Venezia Giulia. Udine is a little city of about 90,000 people. It used to be very sleepy. It was once deemed the most boring city in all of Italy. But it's not that way anymore. It's a young city. There's a university here. So 15 minute walk from my house. I'm in the center of Udine, and it's full of wine bars and places to eat and places to drink and people having a good time. And, you know, those are the things that, for me, are important now because I used to live in the big city. I spent ten years in New York, but now I just enjoy the calm, the peace, the quality of life that you get in a smaller city. So I can't think of anything that you might miss in a place like Friuli-Venezia Giulia. Unless you really want the big city. You live in the big city, so you know, and I do miss the big city from time to time. But it's an easy trade-off with the quality of life that you have here. So there's always good conversation. There's always people having, you know, cicchetti, or pieces of bread with cheese and ham and all that sort of stuff. So it's basically — the thing that I love best about here is the quality of life. There's lots of local food that I enjoy eating. But you can also find some things here like sushi, which is very popular, or hamburgers, if you're really wanting — you have a hankering for Italian, for American food. So. Yeah. I mean, like I was saying, I don't think that if you were to come here, you would find yourself missing anything unless you're really trying to get into the big city. ## 14:28 — Staying plugged into Friuli's wine scene RTB: That's really cool. And I wanted to know, too — a lot of times when I am visiting winemakers, it's a very rural experience and very small town experience. Everybody's kind of in each other's business, you know. And of course, that's very fun to visit. You know, I live in New York City, so, you know, I've kind of chosen my lane in terms of, like, village versus city life. But it's very fun to be around and experience. But I'm just curious for you, how do you stay in touch with — and what are you doing besides the podcast to find out about what's going on in wine? Do the consorzi have events? Are there wine bars where you kind of go to get the news? Like, do you drive out to Cormons? Are you going to different parts of the region and visiting vineyards? Like, how do you stay in touch and informed for your viewers to let them know what's going on in the region? WY: Well, the first line is contact with producers themselves. I'm lucky because I have the podcast. I'm the only one who's doing a podcast about Friuli wine in Friuli exclusively. And so I'm constantly in contact with producers. If it's not about the podcast, it's about other events that I do. I also do events at a restaurant here in Friuli that's called Enoteca in Manzano. So I help them plan the events and I do the events with them. So I'm the one who's coordinating and contacting producers for wines to fulfill these events. I do have really good friends at the Consorzio Colli Orientali, and that is where I have my studio. I don't do my podcasts here, even though I have my microphone set up here. This is more for my intros and my editing type of stuff, but I have like literally a mini studio in the tasting academy at Colli Orientali. So whenever they have things going on and Colli Orientali are super active as far as promotion and events and things like that, I tend to go and take part in those events as often as I can. In fact, there's one on Saturday. So yeah, so I'll probably be going to do that. So I'm constantly bothering producers in Friuli. I'm constantly asking them for samples. Let's do an event. Let's do a tasting. Hey, I'm going to do a wine course. Let's do one of the lessons at your winery. So yeah, that's — and plus I consult for wineries as well. I work closely with Ronchi di Cialla. I've been working now for a short period of time with a guy named Davide Feresin. Since I've become sort of a liberal professionista, so running my own business, I have to sort of be out and about. And whenever there is an event or something. There was an event last week in San Giorgio di Nogaro, something about wine tourism. I was there just to hear what they had to say, but also show people that I'm around. So, yeah, it's a matter of being in a lot of different places. And there's a lot going on as far as wine's concerned. In Friuli, there's always a tasting or some sort of event happening. RTB: \[music\]. So you do some media, but you also do some promotion and you do some like market consultation, some events. That sounds really fun. WY: It's a lot of fun. I mean, there could always be more work, but yes, it is a lot of fun. And the thing that's the most fun about it is dealing with the producers, is hanging out with them and helping them out, but also interacting with them and becoming friends and hearing their sort of hopes and dreams and what they're trying to do and their focus and all that sort of stuff. So getting into the culture of a winery, into this sort of family situation, for me is always really important. And always very satisfying. ## 18:33 — Pinot Grigio and PIWI grapes RTB: There's one thing that I can say about every Italian wine producer I've ever met is that nobody is resting on their laurels. Everyone is working so hard to make the absolute best wine that they can. There's so much innovation, there's so much hustle. People are flying all around the globe to get their small production wineries into Japan and New York City and everywhere, and I was just actually in New York City last night at the time that we're recording this, I went to an event with the consorzio for Pinot Grigio Doc delle Venezie. So it's like, okay, multiple region doc devoted to Pinot Grigio, which, to be honest, wasn't so super on my radar. Even though I always tell people to try Pinot Grigio from Friuli specifically. But I was learning from Felix of that consorzio there that they're the first doc in Italy that is very seriously considering allowing PIWI grapes in the blend. And they just had a tasting two weeks ago of the wines from their experiment with these blends that are maybe 85% Pinot Grigio with some other grapes in them. So that was really interesting. And he also told me that in Friuli specifically, there is a little more golden color even in the non-ramato, non-skin-contact Pinot Grigio, and a little more texture, because they will like to hang the grape, the Pinot Grigio. They like to leave it for a full extra two weeks than other places that might be harvested in Veneto. And I didn't know that either. So I'm learning new things about Pinot Grigio. But what are some of the — well, before we talk about, let's talk about a few grapes. And then I want to get a few other questions for you. But I want to talk about styles, I guess, colors of wine. So I feel — let me know if I'm right about this — but my sense is that, you know, of course there's a long, long history, including of skin contact, so-called orange wines that was kind of forgotten and then revived. But I feel like maybe the 80s, 90s, there were some producers like Marco Felluga that really worked to make sure that the world knew how nice the white wines of Collio Doc, for instance, are in this region. So I feel like the region was really known for the whites. And then kind of in the late, like 90s, 2000s, was this skin contact moment with Gravner and Radikon and all of these cool producers that I got to spend some time with reviving this skin contact tradition. What I don't hear people talking about as much is the reds. My God, are the reds nice? Has it always been that way? Or is this a climate change thing where it's getting a little warmer? Or are they just — I just found them to be stunners. I mean, every, you know, just a glass of Cabernet Franc, I'm like, wow, this is so good. ## 21:06 — Why Friuli became known for whites WY: Well, the reds have always been good here. I think it's just one of those things that Friuli, really understanding that it would be really difficult to compete with Piedmont and Tuscany, said, well, we do have some really, really, really good red wines here, but let's try and go for the softer market maybe, and knowing that white wines really worked here and especially that Ponca soil, that Flysch di Cormons. So that really made some very special white wines. So it sort of became branded as the land of white wines. And that's how Friuli became famous. Friuli was for many, many years a very poor region. You know, it was destroyed by two world wars. The wine history here is both old because it goes back to pre-Roman times, but also young because everything had to be restarted after the wars, everything had to be replanted, everything had to be started up again. So when it went through that restart process, there was a lot of sort of shifting over to ideas that might have been a little bit more financially less risky and a bit more financially stable. So let's do things like Pinot Grigio and Merlot that are easier to grow, and let's pay a little bit less attention to things like Pignolo and Schioppettino. That could be a little bit more difficult. So harder. RTB: To make. WY: Harder. But then harder to make, harder to market, harder to grow. So all of these different things. But then what really sort of changed here was there became a sort of Friulian style. And that filtered in through Germany and Austria, which was this idea of stainless steel temperature controlled white winemaking, where the flavors were super clean, the wines were super fresh. No, you know, no oxidation, no time in wood, because that was sort of muddling up the flavors because people weren't really sure how to make barrique wines here for a while. Schiopetto, Mario Schiopetto was probably one of the guys who spearheaded that, along with Livio Felluga and Marco Felluga. But there are other producers as well. There's probably, you know, a half a dozen producers that sort of carried that. Puiatti was probably another one. So that became the Friulian style and that sort of put Friuli on the map. So Friuli was known for these incredibly clean, fresh, varietally correct, very well-defined, fruit-driven white wines. RTB: That's — WY: How they became famous. ## 24:12 — The orange wine revolution RTB: That makes it so interesting when you think about what it must have been like when this handful of producers started making orange wines. They talk about like, oh, everyone thought we were crazy, but when you hear that, that's what was going on and that was working so well, you can kind of see how revolutionary it must have been when those guys started doing that. WY: Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, the idea was to sort of go back to a pre-industrial feeling for the wines. Whereas if you think of a wine cellar full of big stainless steel tanks, you kind of get this image of sort of an industrial kind of environment. So they wanted something that was more like what they remembered, or their grandfather remembered, or their father remembered, or whatever. That was the way that you made wine in Friuli. And they started experimenting with, you know, leaving the Pinot Grigio on the skins for a little while, just getting it outside the cappello, where the skins come up and you get a little color out of it. Or Gravner traveled to Georgia and started tasting Georgian wine, you know, long macerated stuff. And he was like, that's the way you make wine, and brought that back here and started a revolution. So, yeah, it was extremely revolutionary the way it sort of came, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure. RTB: You know, other places too. I remember Radikon — I was able to interview the Radikon family and they told me that their dad would make people taste it out of black glasses to just say, for God's sake, forget about the color that's freaking you out and just taste what I've made. WY: Yeah. Radikon was a trailblazer, even before getting into that whole long maceration type of style. For sure. RTB: If you're a wine geek, you're going to be into those bottles. And of course, now, right when you get — the orange wines are everywhere, you know, and everybody got excited about it, they're making them in Australia and everywhere else, you know, and it's a whole new category. Let's talk about some of those red wines that you love. So tell me why you love Refosco so much. Why are you making such a thing out of it? ## 26:07 — Friulian Reds: Pignolo, Schioppettino, Refosco WY: It's a good question. I like that question. So of all of the indigenous grape varieties that we have here, the three biggies — there's also a couple of smalls, but the three big ones are Pignolo, Schioppettino, and Refosco. And Refosco is a family of different grape varieties, but the one that's the most important is the Refosco dal Peduncolo. Rosso. There's also Refosco di Faedis and Refoscone, but anyway, the one that I'm most interested in is Refosco dal Peduncolo Rosso. And why is that? Because Schioppettino and Pignolo are great wines. They're fantastic wines, but they do best in very particular places. So, for example, Schioppettino, you know, in a warm place like Buttrio will tend to lose its spicy character. Okay. Pignolo in a cool place like — but a Prepotto will never ripen, and the tannins will never round out. So you need to plant Pignolo in places that are very, very warm with lots of sun, and you need to plant your Schioppettino in places that are a little bit cooler. Refosco you can plant anywhere. With Refosco you can plant in the plains. There are fantastic Refoscos because they come from Aquileia, which you could arguably say is the home of the grape. But there are also — so we're talking about the plains, a very different type of soil, very alluvial, lots of rocks and clay, but different from the hills. But then you get into Colli Orientali and we're on the Ponca, and Refosco is also fantastic. There are great Refoscos that come from, you know, Isonzo, which is another alluvial area out near Pordenone, another area. So there's almost no place in Friuli where you can't make a really good Refosco. And for me, that's sort of the key. I love the fact that Pignolo and Schioppettino are very specific, but the fact that you can make great Refosco could help a lot. Also, almost anywhere in the region — that makes it more interesting for me, because it can be sort of the standard bearer for Friulian red wine. ## 28:28 — Could Refosco travel the world? RTB: That is so interesting since it's so versatile. Do you see Refosco going — being a great grape for experimentation, planting around the world? If that happened, would you like to see that happen? WY: I would love to see that happen. It has happened. I know that Randall Graham experimented with Refosco dal Peduncolo also in California, for sure. There's Refosco going in Australia, I know that it exists. So yeah, I think it would be very, very interesting. But you need a lot of experience with Refosco to sort of understand its ins and outs, so to speak. So I would definitely say, yeah, Refosco could be really, really interesting. And it could only be good for Friuli and Refosco, because if you have a bunch of producers in California or in New York State or in Oregon or Australia or South Africa making Refosco, it's going to come back here eventually. Somebody's going to say, well, where — oh, it's a native of Friuli. Where is Friuli? — and people are going to sort of research and follow that trail back to here. And that's happening with Schioppettino and Pignolo as well. RTB: All right. Experimental world, vineyards of the world, take note. WY: There you go. RTB: And in Bordeaux, right? Of all the people experimenting with — WY: The world is your oyster, guys. Just get out there and plant some Refosco, some Schioppettino, some Pignolo. Oh, for sure, I think Pignolo would do great in a place like Napa Valley. Maybe better than Cabernet Sauvignon, because it is very, very structured and it needs a lot of sun and it needs a lot of heat for it to ripen. And I would be really interested to see what something as difficult as Pignolo would produce in a warm place like Napa. RTB: What are — WY: For California. ## 30:10 — Tasting notes for Pignolo RTB: What are the tasting notes for you that define a typical Pignolo? WY: Well, you know, I always taste in terms of structure. And the thing about Pignolo is it always has this incredibly rich, tannic structure, almost difficult to get through at times. Very dark fruit, very, very deep, lots and lots of tannins, but not a lot of alcohol. You can have really, really alcoholic Pignolo, but there's so much acidic support in Pignolo that it doesn't seem syrupy. And I think that's really, really important. All of the wines here, whether they're white or red, they always have sort of this kind of energetic backbone to them, and even though it's very, very tannic and can be very, very ripe, and even — there are some ones that are, the fruit is dried to give it a little bit more plushness — the acidic character always comes through. So you're getting this black fruit, but with the support of the acidity. RTB: I've heard people compare it to Nebbiolo. Do you think that's because of the tannin, or because of a complexity, because of a development with age? All of the above. ## 32:09 — RIYL Pinot Noir: Schioppettino WY: All of the above. I've done comparison tastings with Nebbiolo and with Pignolo. Nebbiolo is definitely lighter in color. You can tell them apart very easily. You know, if you put a Nebbiolo and a Pignolo together, Pignolo tends to be much, much darker. Yeah, they are both quite tannic. Maybe Nebbiolo has a little bit more acidity, a little bit more elegance. I mean, nothing to say bad about Pignolo, but you get a little bit more of that sort of earthy, tarry edge with Nebbiolo that you don't really get with Pignolo as much. So yeah, they compare them because I think they're both incredibly well structured, incredibly age-worthy red wines. But I've yet to find sort of that comparison between the two. What I think is closer in character is Schioppettino and Pinot Noir. RTB: Oh, interesting. Tell us about that, R-I-Y-L? Yeah. WY: Yeah, because Schioppettino is not a dark-skinned grape. It's not a thick-skinned grape. There aren't a lot of tannins. It's particular, it's a little bit fussy about where you put it. It's quite transparent, it does really show where it comes from. And all of those characteristics you can find also in Pinot Noir. I know a guy in Porto who makes both Pinot Noir and Schioppettino, and he loves to tell the story that when he's pulling the macerated grapes out of the tank to go into the press, he always has a moment of doubt whether or not he's opened the right tank. He's like, oh, wait a second, am I doing the Pinot Noir or am I doing this — Schioppettino, just from the smell of the wine and the grapes that are coming out of the tank. So I think that there is more of a kindred sort of feeling between the wines. The structure is very elegant, it's not a big, brawny, muscular wine, neither one of them are like that. If I had to sort of say there's a real sort of brotherhood between a local grape variety and an international variety — It would be Schioppettino and Pinot Noir. ## 35:47 — Schioppettino: An Odd Duck RTB: You know, I've got another thought for that. Just because I really am intrigued by and love Schioppettino. I almost think of it as a lighter, less tannic Merlot. It's just got that friendly dark fruit character to me. It's like if you took a Merlot and made like a baby version. You know, not that Merlot is among the most tannic grapes, but to me, it's got such a unique character among the lighter bodied, kind of purpley grapes of northern Italy. You get a lot with a strongly floral character, especially across Piedmont, which — I love those. You've got Schiava, for instance, and a lot of. WY: Love. RTB: Those grapes with a very distinct note of white pepper. So there's a lot of kind of vibrancy and personality of a certain kind of piquancy, or like in-your-face floral expression among a lot of those grapes. And then you've got Schioppettino, and this isn't going to sound very elegant, but what I was trying to say with my note about the unique fruit, there's something about it that reminds me of like canned peaches. But I love canned peaches, you know? And, you know, maybe you've never eaten a canned peach if you're Italian, but there's just — WY: Oh, totally. RTB: — this to it. And the fruit to me is kind of unique. There's this round feel. I'm speaking specifically of the Ronchi di Cialla wines, and I just — it's just not quite like any other wine that I've ever had. It's not quite like any other Italian wine that I've ever had. There's something kind of scary about it. And, you know, a lot of Italian reds are just dominated by acid and tannin. So much so that I'm almost — I'm like an extreme sports person, and then when you ask me to drink wines from the rest of the world, I feel like I'm playing golf. And I'm like, all right, where's the tannin? Yeah, like, where's the acid? It manages to be low. And I think both of those things — I would say maybe lower acid, certainly than a Pignolo or a Nebbiolo, but yeah, I don't know. And maybe other people taste different things, and I'm sure you've tasted many more than I have, but I've always found it to be kind of an odd duck, Schio— WY: —patino. Yeah, it is in a way that — RTB: It's an odd duck that I love. WY: Right? Yes. Yeah, it is genetically — it is very, very different from every other variety in Friuli. There are no known parentages or lineages genetically with Schioppettino, with any other grape variety. There might be one, but I can't remember which one it is. So it is quite different. It is very, very old, supposedly due to the vigor of the plant and the way the plant loves to climb and the way it grows very vigorously. There's a part of it that's thought to be closely related to very ancient, very sort of wild vines that haven't changed much over the past 5,000 years or so. So it is an odd duck, it is a different wine. Bunches are really big, grapes are really big, skins are really thin. It's quite susceptible to peronospora. So you really have to know how to grow it. But I think it's one of those things that when it's done right, and there are a number of producers here who do it right, it can be sublime. So I really appreciate that. RTB: I'll try not — WY: — to tell the story. RTB: That dedication. Peaches. Yeah, I've kept that one to myself. WY: I don't know if they're good, doc. RTB: Thank you guys. You're welcome, everyone. That's my confession. Canned peaches. WY: Well, you know what, they'll say, okay, well, yeah, I mean, maybe I can understand why you might think that, but — yeah, it's that impression of freshness that you get from Schioppettino that you don't get from a lot of other wines. The one reason that I would sort of call it a little bit different from Merlot, but again, it sort of falls in line with what you're saying about it being a baby Merlot, is that Merlot tends to be quite full and rich and tends to have a little bit more alcohol, whereas Schioppettino tends to have much less alcohol, isn't quite so full and quite so rich. So yeah, I could understand why you could say it's like a mini version. RTB: Because of the fruit, really — that dark, the friendliness of the fruit. Yeah, the dark fruit. And a lot of the reds are dominated by red fruit — red, red, red, red, red. And then you have this kind of plummy, blackberry core. I'm so glad to know that it's also genetically unique, I feel like I was onto something. But let's talk about Tocai. Well, let's talk about Tocai. WY: Yeah. ## 38:20 — Talking whites: Tocai Friulano RTB: Well, let's talk about some of the whites. Describe to me some of your favorite whites. And I really want people to go and try these. So give us your tasting notes, give us the way they make you feel, the things they remind you of, with some of your favorite Friulian whites. WY: Well, I can't start talking about Friuli and not talk about Tocai Friulano, which now we just call Friulano. And I think that Tocai was my first love when I got here. And, as much as there are other great wines here, there's something about the nose of Tocai. Even if it can be slightly reduced. The best examples of Tocai Friulano — I know that I've always sort of had them come out of the bottle a little bit stinky, but stinky in a good way. Explosively aromatic, but not grassy aromatic, just fruity aromatic. They're just so beautifully lush and long on the palate. They are big wines, they can be alcoholic, but you can combat that with skill and with patience. You have to make sure that you pick at the right time. So I really love the idea that Friulano has this nose that comes at you with, like, flowers and ripe fruit and almonds and all of these different things that you don't often find in white wine. And then on the palate, you have this richness that gets cancelled out, not necessarily by acidity, because Friulano is not a wine with a lot of acid, but it has more richness and that little snap of bitterness on the end, that green almond bitterness that I love — I love, you know, I love Amaro, I love black coffee. I'm one of those weirdos who likes bitter things. So yeah, I really, really appreciate Tocai Friulano as sort of the standard bearer for native white varieties here. But — RTB: Beautiful tribute. WY: Thank you. RTB: I completely agree. ## 40:20 — A new blend built on native grapes WY: The real future of Friulian wines is this movement that's going towards this blend of Tocai, Malvasia, and Ribolla Gialla. RTB: I thought you were going to say Ribolla Gialla, because they were really promoting that just a few years ago, which I was kind of like — I get the versatility, I tried some really nice ones, but then I would always pick the Friulano out of the lineup. So tell me about this blend, that's kind of news to me. WY: There's a big movement going on in Collio, which was spearheaded by Christian Keber, and the idea was that they wanted to make Collio Bianco. But Collio Bianco, many, many years ago, sort of had this idea where you could blend anything that was allowed to be grown in Collio into Collio Bianco, so you could put in Sauvignon, and you could put in Gewürztraminer, and you could put in Chardonnay, and you could put in whatever you wanted to create sort of your house wine, your specific blend. And for many, many years in Friuli, those wines were always the most important wines. Vintage Tunina today, Terre Alte, wines like that. There were sort of — okay, everybody had their variety of wines. So you had your Tocai, your Sauvignon, your Chardonnay, blah, blah, blah. But your best wine was a blend. RTB: But everybody's blend was different. WY: Yes. Everybody's blend was different. And that was considered an advantage because you could sort of create something that was equally yours. When I worked at Bastianich, it was Vespa Bianco — Chardonnay, Sauvignon, a little dash of Picolit. Everybody was making like their own sort of house blend. Christian Keber started thinking about this idea of let's concentrate more on local grape varieties. And those local grape varieties are Ribolla Gialla, Malvasia, and Tocai Friulano. And let's make a blend of that and say, okay, we got to limit Ribolla Gialla to a certain percentage, we had to limit Tocai to a certain percentage, because we don't want the wines to be too different. You can identify them however you want. You can put them in wood or in amphora or in stainless steel, whatever you want to do, concrete, whatever you want to do. But those — there's like some loose parameters there that you have to sort of fall into. And I think those wines are absolutely fabulous. I think those wines are the ones that more easily define what's going on here. And I see more and more, even in Brda, people sort of going toward that blend. And I think that's really important, because what's going to happen is if that sort of standard takes off, you're going to have a particular Friuli white wine that's going to have a bigger impact on the market. People are going to say, oh, okay, that sort of three-grape blend from Friuli is really freaking good. And no matter who you get it from, you're going to be happy. The one that I tasted most recently that really knocked my socks off, and I even posted something about it on Instagram, where I basically said wines like this were the reason that I fell in love with Friuli, is a producer in Collio called Korsič with a K, and he was nice enough to give me a bottle of his local blend. I loved it. I mean, it's energetic and it's rich and it's acidic and it's ripe and it's got everything going for it, because acidity from Ribolla Gialla, freshness, lightness, that's what Ribolla Gialla is all about. Power and aromas and richness from Tocai Friulano. And in Malvasia you get the flowers and you get the aromas. So you put those three grapes together in the right way, that's super. RTB: Special. Oh, that's so exciting. You— So when you and I are obviously gaga for the indigenous grapes, but just like a quick note for everybody that the, you know, the French international varieties have been in this region for a long time and some of them have really special expression. I really like the Merlot, I really like the Pinot Bianco, so you know, we have two of my favorites as well. Also some fascinating Sauvignon Blanc, Chardonnays grown on that Ponca soil. And if you want to get somebody who isn't that grape-adventurous to try something new — when I was working in wine service, I would often try to recommend, for instance, a Sauvignon Blanc or a Chardonnay from this region, or Pinot Grigio. But what about some of the late harvest wines, the grapes that are vinified into the late harvest style, because those are so special. ## 44:58 — The case for sweet wine WY: So we're talking about the sweet wines. RTB: Yes, yes. So, like, Picolit. WY: So people, Picolit. So Picolit. Yeah, they're so — and, you know, it's not just that, there are other grapes that people sort of push the limits on as far as ripeness is concerned. Picolit is probably — and I just spoke to Marco Sara about this today — it's such a special grape variety, it's such a difficult grape variety, but it was quite literally the wine of kings for a period in Europe. I mean, there were noble people from Friuli and from Veneto who were bottling this wine before wine was usually put into bottles, and sending it as gifts to, you know, the courts of the most important places in the world, in Europe rather. So, yeah, I mean, there is a certain elegance and beauty to Picolit that I don't think any other sweet wine can come close to. I don't understand why, when we talk about sweet wine in the world, we talk about, you know, Sauternes, and we talk about Tokaji from Hungary, and we don't talk about Picolit, because it is one of the great sweet wines of the world. The problem is, it's sweet — people don't really drink a lot of sweet wine. RTB: Don't worry, I'm on a mission to make sure that late harvest dessert wine becomes the hot new thing in the culinary experience again. I won't let it die. So that's why I wanted to — please, please help. Yeah, yeah. WY: Please help. RTB: It's so delicious. Yeah, yeah, we just opened — when, in fact, I had a very fancy dinner party. I made some steak, and I had a new friend of mine, an old friend of my husband, so we reunited, and didn't realize that he had such a cool wine collection. And he brought over some 1998 Hermitage. And, you know, we drank some really cool wines, and people were kind of busting out their own contributions to keep up with those bottles. I opened my Verduzzo, like a 2014 Verduzzo. It was nice, I think I hoarded it a little bit, I'm not going to lie. WY: What was the reaction of the people at the party to the Verduzzo? I'm really curious. RTB: Well, it was a pretty savvy group of people. So especially my friend Noel, who's a somm, in Boston. I know she was — just, you know, rapturous delight, really. If you don't drink nice late harvest dessert wines, you're missing out on rapturous delight. So don't do that to yourself. WY: I agree, I agree. You know, I did an episode about Picolit for the consorzio, and the thing that I tried to impress upon the people who live here — I mean, so I'm not talking about Americans, I'm just talking about people who live here — is that we should never, ever go home without opening a bottle of Picolit. The end of the night should be a bottle of Picolit, or it could be Verduzzo. So both of them, I think, are equally valid — styles are different, but at the end of the night, when you're about to sort of, like, you know, maybe we should start going home, everybody's got to stop and say, hang on a second, we can't go until we open up. Equally, even if it's just a half bottle and there's six of you and you just have like that last sip before you leave the party, it's just — it's just magic. I mean, sweet wines are so beautiful, they're always so highly rated, and if you talk to anybody who knows anything about wine, they always go, oh, sweet wines are sublime. But for some reason we have this idea that, like, sweet wine, bad. Please drink more Verduzzo, please drink more Picolit. ## 48:45 — Modo di Bere Magazine: Michele Thomas on Sweet Wines RTB: Make people — yeah, lots of thoughts on that. But don't worry, you can go to my magazine — the Modo di Bere magazine. The editor of the magazine, Michele Thomas, has released the first installment of what's going to become a whole series about sweet wines. I helped inform the creation of a sweet wine brand from Italy that's now being sold in Nigeria and across West Africa. I had been wanting for a long time to see somebody give people who like sweet wines more quality options, you know, because it doesn't really make sense to compare the cheaper sweet wines on the market with the late harvest. Those are such different things. Although I think that it was the reputation of the former that dragged down the latter, along with dinner getting shorter, and, you know, a little toxic diet culture there as well. ## 49:51 — Pinot Grigio: "Don't hate me cause I'm popular" Sometimes things get so popular that, you know, there's kind of a swing, and I will say it's difficult when things get really popular in a cheap category that's being made in a way that can be scaled and cheap, because what happens then is the branding of it begins to define an entire country, region, style, or grape. This happened with Pinot Grigio — once you realize that most of the Pinot Grigio — Of course, I was just speaking with the people from that consorzio for Pinot Grigio last night, and they're decreasing plantings, they're experimenting, you know, the qualities there. But there have always been great Pinot Grigio. It's not Pinot Grigio, it's — you know, Pinot Grigio is a great grape, it's all about what you do with it, right? So, absolutely. And you know, the same thing with Beaujolais Nouveau or whatever, you know, like, we're even just — something that comes out of style just because it became so popular that people were ready for a change, they — \[music\]. Here's what I heard on your podcast, that in the new year, you're going to be doing a series of interviews with winemakers on the Slovenian side of that border that's geographically connected, historically connected to the eastern Friuli, in what's usually a region. So we'll just direct — we won't talk about Brda today, we will direct people to your podcast in the new year. But I have one or two last questions for you real quick, I want to know more about the Bastianich Group. What was your work that you did with them? You've mentioned it a couple of times. ## 51:00 — Wayne's trial by fire at the Bastianich Group WY: I started with Joe as a sommelier at his restaurant in New York, which was called Becco. It's still called Becco, it still exists. That happened after I left Wine Spectator — so I left Wine Spectator, I wanted to get a more dynamic job, I was sick of sitting in a cubicle, and I called a friend of mine who I went to wine school with, a guy named Dan Perlman. He was the sommelier at that point of Felidia, and that was Joe's mom's restaurant. That was Lidia Bastianich's restaurant. And he said, we're not looking for anybody here, but I think Joe is looking for someone at Becco. And I was like, who's Joe and what's Becco? I didn't know anything about it. And so I met with Joe, and so I worked as a sommelier there. I went in there — I never worked in a restaurant before, I never carried a plate in my life. But I did go to sommelier school when I was going through WSET, and so I knew a little bit about service. He said to me, do me a favor, put on a suit and a tie, come back next Wednesday and do service. Here's my wine list, look it over, get to know the wines a little bit, and then come in. So I came in at 8:00 after the pre-theater rush, and I just walked in with my suit and I had my, you know, my corkscrew in my pocket. And he just waved me and he said, go sell wine. Just go. That was my trial. And I just went up to the first table — can I help you with wine? I just started walking around the room and, you know, whatever, what am I supposed to do? And so I started grabbing bottles and opening wines and serving and doing all this sort of stuff. And about an hour, hour and a half into it, he waves me in and he was like, you've never worked in a restaurant before? I was like, never worked in a restaurant before. He's like, you're a natural, start Monday. But I had to learn how to — I couldn't work as a sommelier until I learned how to work as a waiter. And so I worked a week as a waiter, carrying plates, taking orders, putting orders into the computer, all that sort of stuff. And then I could sort of move on. I did that for about three years, and then I decided that restaurant life wasn't for me. And Joe had just bought his vineyard in Friuli in 1998, and he was like, do you want to work in a winery? You want to go work in Italy? And I was like, I don't know. And then I called my ex-wife and she was like, you got offered a job in Italy and you said you don't know? Just say yes, you idiot. Go! How many times in your life is somebody going to offer you a job in Italy? Just go. And I was like, okay, so the next day I went in and I said, yeah, I'll do it. That was July 15th or 16th, and I was in Friuli on August 31st, and we started the harvest on September 1st. So that's how I got here, through the Bastianich family, and then I worked five years in the cellar, left the cellar for a period because I couldn't deal with cellar work anymore, and then I went back as communications manager from like 2007 until 2021. RTB: Your current incarnation of you as a podcast host and everything else — was that kind of a Covid thing? Because it kind of was for me. We could talk more about it when we switch and you interview me. But, so were you able to kind of find a new passion and a new direction where you got to talk about wine, which I think you're clearly really great at. ## 53:54 — Yes, we both started a podcast during Covid WY: Oh, thank you, thank you. I think my passion for talking about wine, and this new sort of chapter in my life, came because I sort of felt like I needed to move on from Bastianich. And I loved working for Bastianich, and it was something that I said to Joe multiple times — that I always treated that winery as if it were my own. And I traveled a lot, and I was in the States for two, two and a half months a year promoting the wines. And, you know, I was the guy who did all the visits and tastings at the winery. So I really was emotionally attached to the winery. But I kind of felt like my time there had come to an end. I wasn't sort of progressing any further, things had changed, the sales director left, so I just felt like I needed a change. And then Covid came, and that was the push that I needed to sort of move on from there. What happened during Covid? Clubhouse happened during Covid, and so everybody was on Clubhouse chatting, and so, of course, I fell into the wine groups, and I was hanging out with guys like Matthew Horkey, talking about wine for 24 hours a day, seven days a week, because we didn't have anything else to do because we were stuck in the house. And then I was like, why don't I do a podcast? And I actually did a podcast a long, long time ago with my friend Mateo, and the technology wasn't there to do a podcast well. And now the technology is there where an idiot like me can actually put together a podcast — it doesn't sound like it was recorded inside of an empty freight container. RTB: Well, you don't seem like an idiot to me, no matter how lucky you are. WY: Well, I'm an idiot as far as, you know, technology and sound design and all of that sort of stuff. RTB: So, you know, when you want to do something, you just learn. It was weird for me because I was a musician, I was really used to being around recording, it wasn't so foreign to me, but I had never been the one hitting the buttons, so I had to learn that too. But my last question for you, and then we should switch, because I'm going to get interviewed on your show, everybody. WY: Exactly. ## 56:30 — Listen to RT's Interview on Wayne's Podcast La Taverna RTB: So if you want to see the tables turned and me answer some questions, you can — not that I don't talk and tell you what I think on this show, but you can hear more about whatever he's going to ask me about on Wayne's podcast, La Taverna. Do you have a website or anything, Wayne, that people can find you at? Or should they just look for La Taverna. WY: La Taverna Friuli. And then it can be either .com or .it, one or the other. RTB: La Taverna Friuli. We will put that in the show notes. Please visit, Wayne and I are really trying to help each other out here, so go over there and check out his show, download an episode, hit follow, share the love with people who care about — that's why we care about this. Then I will say, I found it really cool too. Another thing that we have in common is that we both have episodes in English and Italian. A lot of your episodes are in Italian, so if you're someone who speaks fairly good Italian and you'd like to practice, that could be a really good way. I know I partially learned Italian from listening to some wine podcasts, and that was really helpful to me. So that's there for you as a tool. But he does have some episodes in English as well. So, Wayne, is there anything else you want to add before we wrap up and switch over to La Taverna, and I'll do my interview, I think. ## 57:44 — Done is better than perfect WY: Yeah, I think we've covered everything. I think one of the most important things that I've learned, going with the flow of this sort of change of life during Covid and taking on new things, is to keep in mind something that someone told me a long time ago, which is done is better than perfect. And that's kind of the philosophy that I've always had with my podcast — if you're going to sit there and tweak every little sound and every little detail, you're never going to get it done. So, okay, get it done, get it published, get it out there. And then the next time you can improve a little bit more. And I feel that my podcast has improved over four years. So, done is better than perfect. RTB: Something about the podcast publication schedule, that you guys are waiting to hear what I'm going to do next, has helped me work through some of that perfectionism as well. So, you know, learning is about making mistakes. Learning is about trying new things. It's about not worrying about looking silly as much as you worry about accomplishing your goals. So, right, get out there. Don't worry, everybody's just thinking about themselves anyway. Anyone who's going to be that judgmental is just missing out on all the finer things of life. WY: The joy. ## 59:00 — Outro RTB: I don't want you to miss out on those things because you're worried about whatever anyone thinks. I mean, life is short, you know. Wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Support us on Patreon. *\[NOTE: We are no longer using Patreon! Become a member* [*right here*](https://www.mododibere.com/#/portal/) *to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\]* Grab the newsletter at mododibere.com and subscribe to the YouTube channel at Modo di Bere to watch the travel show, Modo di Bere TV. Music for the show was composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou. Purchase their music at the link in the notes. Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their latest album at[ https://folderol.it/ou/](https://folderol.it/ou/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ The "Tongue-Cutter" Wine ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e14-tazzelenghe-the-tongue-cutter/) [ Cheryl Kingan ☕️ 🍷 ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e12-cheryl-kingan/) ### ▷S4E12 Cheryl Kingan, Student of Liquids URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e12-cheryl-kingan/ Last updated: 2026-08-26T15:41:52.000Z When she's not playing the baritone sax, Cheryl Kingan sells wine in New York City. She previously worked in specialty coffee for many years. Cheryl's interest in drinks is not only culinary: this passion has naturally led her to advocate for sustainable agriculture and community development. She loves educating her clients and the public about indigenous grape varieties from Greece, Eastern Europe, Italy and Slovenia. Cheryl and Rose Thomas talk about the life of a "student of liquids," a term coined by the bartender who inspired RT's journey into drinks: the natural synergy between baristas and bartenders, the adventure of visiting vineyards and coffee farms around the world, tips for getting started tasting wine or coffee, and the potential of tasting notes to be internationally delightful. Cheryl sells wine for Eklektikon: [eklektikon.com ](https://www.eklektikon.com/?ref=mododibere.com)[](https://www.eklektikon.com/%EF%BF%BC%EF%BF%BCIncluding?ref=mododibere.com)Including this producer from Corfu: [pontiglio.gr](https://pontiglio.gr/?ref=mododibere.com) Listen to Cheryl play music with the bands below! [thesceneisnow.bandcamp.com/music](http://thesceneisnow.bandcamp.com/music?ref=mododibere.com) (featured in the episode) [tierslafamilia.bandcamp.com](http://tierslafamilia.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) [75dollarbill.bandcamp.com](http://75dollarbill.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) *Note from Rose Thomas: Cheryl and I are friends and she plays in a band with my husband. We are both certified sommeliers through the Sommelier Society of America, where we also both work as educators.* [*sommeliersocietyofamerica.org*](https://sommeliersocietyofamerica.org/?ref=mododibere.com) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSDBpjdjYtE/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSDBpjdjYtE/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSIKe4qjfNa/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSIKe4qjfNa/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSJca-lDSTl/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSJca-lDSTl/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) **Edited autotranscript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript Intro: Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. RT: I'm so excited today to be interviewing Cheryl Kingan. Cheryl spent 12 years helping to build the coffee program at Cafe Grumpy in Brooklyn, the latter six years as their coffee buyer, tasting coffee and building lasting partnerships in Latin America and East Africa. She is committed to sustainable agriculture and community development. And her current role in wine distribution is centered around wine makers in Greece, Eastern Europe, and Italy. Cheryl's also a seasoned musician and plays baritone sax with 75 Dollar Bill and The Scene is Now. \[Music\] She also sings and plays synths in Tiers La Familia. Cheryl was born in New Jersey and has called New York City her home since 2005\. Cheryl, welcome. CK: Hi. So happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me. RT: Thank you for coming on the show. Before we start the interview, I have a request. If you're a big fan of the Modo di Bere podcast, tell a friend. I hope someone in your life comes to mind who would enjoy the show. Whether that's someone who loves learning about languages, that wine student in your life, or anybody who likes to hear about fun travel adventures, I hope you take a moment to share this episode with them. I really appreciate your help in spreading the word about Modo di Bere. Back to Cheryl Kingan. If you follow Modo di Bere on Instagram, you may recognize her from a funny reel about funny grape names. For those who haven't seen that reel, Cheryl, should we start off by talking about Baratuciat? CK: Well, yes, Rose. I think we should start with that. \[Video clip\]: This is a grape variety called Baratuciat which means cat's testicles in Piemontese dialect. This is a skin contact expression. Uh six days of skin contact both fermented and aged in cement and has some really beautiful aromatics. Um some cool spice character and some fantastic texture. This is called Ette and it's made by Summer Wolff. One of the reasons why it has that nickname too is this grape variety can sometimes have a Sauv Blanc-like cat piss— RT: Oh! CK: —smell. This expression of it I think doesn't quite do that RT: Oh it's good. CK: Yeah super yummy really floral. RT: Rare grapes from Piemonte is like a hobby of mine, and I have never heard of this. \[Music\] CK: So I know that you are a collector of not only obscure grapes but of local kind of very specific dialectical sayings. And so when I saw you at a portfolio tasting recently, I was very excited to introduce you to a Piemontese grape called Baratuciat, which is a word that means cat balls or testicles. So it's kind of a funny one. RT: So what does the wine made from the Baratuciat taste like? Can you tell us a little bit about that? CK: Well, it's a white grape variety and the version that we tasted together was one that had a little bit of skin contact. So, kind of an orange amber color, a little hazy from being unfiltered. Um, kind of nice ripe orchard fruits, medium pretty balanced acidity, and a nice long finish. RT: Baratuciat. And that's from Piemonte from in northern Italy. I know that was so fun. I just there's just like endless endlessness. That's something that I love. So, speaking of languages, what languages have you studied and how have they helped you in your work with coffee and wine? CK: So, I spent most of my middle and high school and college days studying Spanish. My mom and sister studied French and so I was doing Spanish, a little bit to be contrary just because, you know, sometimes that's what the youngest child does. But Spanish of course is incredibly helpful to have both for coffee, for living in New York, for working in restaurants and just for being a citizen on planet Earth. So I have no regrets in the decision. But because of their influence, I was also interested in French. I love foreign films, so I also studied a little bit of French just for personal interest. And then spending some time traveling in East Africa. That came in handy because of someone I had a crush on. In college, I studied classics. So, I got into ancient Greek and actually ended up doing my last semester of undergrad in Greece. So, I studied a little bit of modern Greek and that sort of ties in now to my work with some wines that are from Greece, which is very cool. RT: Oh, that's so cool. What about some fun Greek wine names? CK: As you know, in Italy, there are tons of indigenous varieties. I think maybe one of the biggest, if not the most kind of widespread amount of of indigenous varieties, but Greece has some really fun ones. Uh I feel like the more familiar ones for people are Assyrtiko, Xinomavro, Agiorgitiko sometimes be called St. George. There are some interesting island grapes like Vardea and Mavropatrino and Chlori. And I could go on and on. There's an an interesting winery that we work with on the island of Corfu and the name of the winery is called Pontiglio which means stubborn in Latin and then the name of the wine that they make the grape is called Kakotrigis which means hard to harvest and then the name of the cuvee is just uh Lianoroido which means skin contact. So basically it's it's a winery that celebrates their stubbornness because Corfu is you know a very touristy island. So you know has been descended upon by many people and has lost much of its sort of historical identity. So they're really proud to sort of keep it real, keep it traditional. Just work with the native grapes in their own way. And even the label for that wine is kind of a funny cartoon of this woman with her hair kind of flying back and she's got like the scissors at the vines and she's sort of struggling and fighting against the vine. So it's sort of a fun one that ties everything together. RT: What's the name of that producer? CK: Pontiglio is the name of the winery. Yeah. RT: Cool. Cool. And that's something that you're representing in your work in in in wine distro. That's so cool. That's so interesting. I love Greek wines. They're delicious. I really feel like there is so much cool stuff going on in the Greek wine world in general and it's something that people should just order if they see it out at a restaurant. Give it a shot. CK: Yeah, I think it's one of those kind of cool underdog varieties that can really deliver much more than its value. Great with a variety of cuisines and yeah, there's some really unusual and beautiful stuff coming out of Greece. RT: It's so interesting in terms of indigenous grapes and in biodiversity in general, but it's really feels akin to and is cultural preservation, you know, and I think a lot about like the work that people do to try to maintain, you know, dead or dying languages, local dialects, kind of undersung tongues, and then also these less famous local grapes. You know, maybe it wasn't something that was so successful that got planted all over the world like Chardonnay, but you know, there there's it really makes the world richer to have have these things. So, I love to hear stories about people doing the work to to deal with the fussy or hard to understand grape, but to just kind of keep it from going extinct and letting us taste it. CK: Absolutely. Well, and I think something we see all over the world too is these more common, more famous varieties that showed up as a result of colonization and war and all kinds of different reasons. But you know, Chardonnay, Cab Sauv, the sort of like most famous things that everybody sort of feels comfortable with and knows as you know, wine. I'm doing air quotes, but you know, just not being afraid to encourage a wine maker to make wine like perhaps their grandfather or their great-grandfather, you know, to kind of go back and take a step back and not worry about what's on trend or what's in fashion or what you think will sell or what you, you know, what someone is telling you makes sense or, you know, kind of trusting your intuition or having someone who believes in you and says like, "Hey, do it the old school way because that's going to be more rewarding for you and it's going to like you said kind of preserve this really cool cultural tradition that otherwise would totally disappear." RT: No, that's I mean that's really the whole reason for doing the whole Modo di Bere project is just interest in kind of finding these ways of life and it is fulfilling. It is it is a way of life for people to to stay connected to those traditions. And I've been thinking recently about I guess it's kind of a globalization thing, and you know French wines are incredible and I love them. Of course I love them and you know they have this amazing reputation for being so important in the history of quality wine making. Although there are other stories of other countries that maybe aren't heard as often who also have such a long history. Certainly Greece, certainly Italy. But when I think about, you know, those Bordeaux style blends that were so popular for so long and going back to this fun event in the 60's called the Judgment of Paris, 60's, '70s, right? Judgment of Paris. \[Note: Actually 1976.\] So that was like a blind tasting where people proved that California Bordeaux style blends were also good. And I feel like there was this way of proving that you in maybe an up and coming region, proving that you made good wine turned out to be by making a Bordeaux style blend. And it kind of became this benchmark or this showing that you can do this thing in this one certain style. But yeah, you know, I mean things can be a victim of their own success and absolutely and then the quality for the consumer when everybody's doing something. I mean this even with some of the indigenous grapes and they get right. I mean think of like Pinot Grigio for instance. CK: Yeah. And things just become super homogeneous and uninteresting and often times just not good. RT: I know! And that's like the sad thing because it's not the grapes fault. CK: No, no. Right. RT: And Pinot Grigio is awesome, you know, and and a lot of these grapes too, I think particularly with these indigenous grapes, they end up getting a bad reputation because someone overcrops it. So they they really push the production and then it just becomes this watery sad thing when and everyone's like, "Oh, that that's not good. I know that that's bad wine, bad grape." And it's like, "No, it's not. It's not the grape's fault." There's amazing examples. CK: And it's it's tough because we are so impressionable as humans, right? One bad experience with something can be enough. You know, first impressions, like people aren't always willing to go back to something if they yeah, they really hated it for whatever reason or made them sick or, you know, I'm thinking of oysters or something, but you know, it's just like yeah, it can be a really tough thing to break out of that habit if they have a bad experience or yeah, you're just having something that's always on one-noted no matter kind of where you're pulling it from. RT: Well, you know, people have their comfort zones and that's totally fine. You know, like enjoy it and whatever you enjoy is is cool. CK: There are no rules! RT: You know, you don't always have to be trying something new every single day, but let's say you were wanting to get interested in more indigenous grapes and and kind of widening your palate. What's your advice for people trying new wines from different places? CK: I feel like you would offer similar advice, but don't be afraid to talk to people. You know, when you're at a wine shop, ask for a recommendation. You know, when you're at a restaurant, ask your server, ask the somm, just say, "Hey, what are you really excited about right now?" You know, I kind of like things that, you know, give them give them something to work with. Whether it's a red wine, if you want to try skin contact wine, if you, you know, you love crisp whites, don't say "dry" because, you know, that's not going to help. Most of the wines that we drink here in the US are dry. So, give them a little something. Do you like acidity? Do you like something that's kind of rich and full body? Do you like something spicy? Do you like something that has stone fruit? Just one one thing and then say, "I really love wines that have this kind of what do you recommend?" And if you're in a restaurant and it's something by the glass, you'll usually get a little taste. RT: Yeah. CK: Which is awesome. And then you can say, "Oh, yeah. I that's for me. I love it." Or maybe something, you know, I am going to play it safe and go with Pinot Grigio or something that I know that I like. But yeah, I would just And and in a wine shop too, it's a whole other world, right? It's a huge huge selection. I don't want to say the playing field is leveled. Obviously, there's all price brackets, you know, but give them a price point, give them a a couple cues of a flavor profile, or maybe there's a country! Maybe you want to explore Spain, maybe you really want to get to know whether it's Greece or Armenia or something really unusual. Yeah. I mean, everybody who is in the industry is willing and excited for those questions that come their way and they want to give you a cool experience. RT: That's such good advice. Yeah. And I would say too, just don't be worried that you're going to say something wrong. CK: Yeah. Correct. RT: Asking questions. CK: That's it. That's how you learn. RT: Exactly. Exactly. \[Music\] RT: So, let's go back to coffee for a second. So, I always I always think of the person who really probably got me into drinks, who was a bartender. I was, um, Cheryl and I are both musicians. I'm a singer-songwriter. I play guitar and piano. And I had a music series at a bar in Lincoln, Nebraska. And there was this bartender there. He was—everything gets out there a little bit later. So it was a little bit later than the cocktail revolution that rediscovered historic classic cocktails on the East Coast and the West Coast, but he was like very kind of the 2010s or or earlier, 2000s, 2010s like vest, you know, vest, bow tie, poker face. I've talked about him before on the on the podcast because it was something that really inspired me and he had a little he would write handwrite the specials and put them in a little picture frame and have a have a little candle. His name is Ian. I remember seeing later an interview about him and he just he said this phrase which was he called himself a "student of liquids." I love it. And I thought it was a really really adorable way to basically say "I'm into coffee and also wine and cocktails." And sometimes I'll I'll joke about it. I really did love this statement, but I I'll joke about it sometimes when I'm sort of trying to free pour something into a bottle without a funnel and be like, "It's okay people. I'm a student of liquids." CK: Nice. RT: But you are a student of liquids. So with coffee, how did you get into coffee? And how did you end up traveling for coffee? CK: Like so many people I think in any of our industries, it happened by accident. I moved to New York when I finished college. I was doing an internship at the Guggenheim Museum. So fancy! Of course, not getting paid, as everyone has to make the choice, of office work or service work. The Guggenheim was kind of a taste of office work and I was like well this is probably the coolest office I could ever work in but it's still a lot of computers and not much... You know, there were some very cool events that I got to attend and I have zero regrets. It was an awesome experience. But yeah, I needed to make some money and so the first job I took was in the West Village at a coffee and chocolate shop called Chocolate Bar. Mostly hot chocolate, truffles, etc. But they were working with Gimme Coffee, which was one of the best kind of early roasters, specialty roasters that came to New York from Ithaca. I didn't really know anything about how to make espresso. We had a an okay espresso machine, nothing fancy, but we didn't know anything about steaming milk or latte art or any of this stuff that now we almost take it for granted. You could trip over a cafe. You know, there's so many fantastic, and not so great, but just so many like specialty and specialty adjacent coffee is everywhere in New York now, which is incredible. When I first moved here and we were saying this is like 2005, 2006, there were a handful of shops really doing specialty coffee and doing it justice. So anyway, someone came in to give a a wholesale training from Gimme. I just remember being like, "Wow, there's kind of a lot to this." Like it's very scientific. It's a cool I think in wine and cocktails are like this too. It's a cool blend of science, art, creativity, flavor, you know, it's just all these things kind of coming together. And so this training, I was like, "Wow, this is really cool." Like, I kind of want to get more into this. I ended up moving on to another job that was a little more coffee-centric, but still not quite what I was looking for. And then Cafe Grumpy was just starting to expand at that point. So there was only the cafe in Greenpoint, one location. And I believe now there's at least eight, but maybe even 10 locations, but they were just about to open the location in Chelsea. So, they were starting to hire the more folks to come on board. And, you know, I thought, okay, well, the Craigslist says competitive pay. Let's see what it means. And I had such an inspiring interview and it was like, basically started something that became a career that I never anticipated. But immediately I was like fell into this training and this cool group of people and I was like wow! this is like really something I can feel proud of and excited about. It's nerdy but it's also cool and it's like, I don't know, it was combining all of these interests and actually in a really similar way those cocktail bartenders at that time too were also: it was a small scene and a lot of them saw us as people who were also making this really beautiful handmade thing and so we had a really cool relationship. We had some bartenders from Little Branch and all those cool like Atta Boy and Milk and Honey and that that scene, you know, they were like our friends and we would go and and watch them make drinks and learn about cocktails and they would come and geek out and have nice coffee from us and it was like a very special time because there was only a few of us. Everybody knew each other. We all supported each other. It was like sort of a secret handshake. It's like, "Oh, you can make a Rosetta. Sweet." Like that's awesome. Over time, Grumpy, we started as a multi-roaster. So, we were pulling in coffee from a lot of different people around the country that we thought did a fantastic job. And we were really the first place, I think, to do single cup brewing across the board. We were using those crazy Clover machines that Starbucks later bought out. Actually, after seeing them at Cafe Grumpy, Howard Schultz came into the location in Chelsea and was like, "That machine is incredible. I'm going to try out the company." RT: Can you explain? CK: It's kind of a fun like it looks like a big giant space age rectangle with like a faucet over the top and then there's a big circle that is a micron filter that would drop down. There's a piston so it would drop down. I've done this I've done this explanation so many times but it would drop down. You put in the coffee grounds. You used a little wire whisk to stir and get them all sort of situated in the water and it would brew for honestly like not even a minute was like 45 seconds or something. And then there was a vacuum that would suck the coffee into the machine and the puck of coffee grounds would rise to the top on the filter and we would use a squeegee to pull the grounds into a little like waste receptacle that we would just toss into the compost or the trash when it got full. And then there was a button on the front that you could push and it would dispense through the front and you could program it for a 12 or a 16 ounce cup, but you could make a very quick, very tasty, programmable in terms of brew time and temperature cup of coffee. And so we were the really I think it was before all the pour-over craze that you know you see them very often now, but we didn't have a batch brewer at all. So it was espresso or you would choose from a list of four or five different coffees from mostly Latin America at that time and yeah from these different roasters that we were working with. It was really exciting. It was like kind of fun to explain to people and being in New York too. Some people were just like this takes way too long. I can't handle it. I just need like a quick, you know, I just need a drip coffee and get out the door. You know, I don't want to sit and watch this machine doing this thing. \[RT laughs\] CK: And then suddenly people got really into it. They're like, "Actually, this is kind of cool and we can slow down for a sec and like enjoy this thing and like, you know, maybe I'm going to sit actually and have it to stay because I want to read the paper and like, "Nice." RT: And that reminds me of that that moment in craft cocktails, too. Yeah. People were like, you know, making a drink, making a rum and coke versus making a whiskey sour with an egg white. And there was this moment for for consumers. We like, you know, it started going back to that guy who people were like, "What the heck is he doing?" CK: Yes. Well, right. And and also we did not allow laptops, which was a big deal because it was a cafe. It was a coffee shop. That's what you do in a coffee shop. You go to work and be on your laptop. RT: And the coffee is just fuel. CK: Exactly. RT: It's not a It's not a gastronomic experience. CK: Correct. No, we really we wanted it to be a place where people were having conversation and actually, you know, you're meeting your neighbors and you're having a little community experience. And I remember one of my favorite things about it was like, you know, on a busy afternoon or a weekend, it sounded like a bar almost because everybody's just chatting, you know, that sort of like nice pleasant murmur of everyone just kind of having a good time. I was like, "Wow, that is so cool." Because otherwise it's like this thing where you know it's this and we we would allow laptops in the Greenpoint Cafe. So it would get like this sometimes where you you know you have your barista who likes the really ambient music and it's like super quiet and everybody's doing their thing and like someone gets a phone call and everyone's furious \[RT laughs\] CK: and like you know anybody who's actually talking everyone's sort of like shush you know and you're just like no it's okay like there should be that like we want that that's good it's important you know? RT: I love this I love this idea of you hanging out with the the bartenders hanging out with baristas and and and vice versa. It's like the circle of life, the cycle of the day. Day to night. CK: It really is! It does. It's like we need each other, you know, we balance each other out. So, yeah. RT: I've got another interview for the podcast with the food writer Giulia Àlvarez-Katz. And she did a series about "third places," you know, the place that you go that's not work or or home to just be with other human beings. And and a lot of times that's centered around drinks and not just alcohol. CK: Well, for sure. and right the social aspects of it and I think that you know what what the best of the beverage industry is right it's this this fuel for conversation right and I think even historically with coffee right it was like a meeting spot for the revolutionaries for the thinkers for the well what do you know it's like the meeting place that's where people would come to hang out exchange ideas maybe get into a fight have a debate whatever you know but that was the spot you know and similarly the bar gives you a different kind of freedom and a different kind of energy. Um, so yeah, I think they're really important social spaces. RT: I love how in Italy it's the same place. Yeah. And and the bartender is the same person. CK: Yes. All day. They know you. They know everything. RT: Making your coffee versus, you know, making your making your cocktail. CK: Correct. RT: Or your glass of wine. When you had developed your palate around coffee and became a coffee buyer, you started taking these coffee trips. CK: Yes. RT: Tell me about that experience. CK: Sure. So, I guess you had asked about how, yeah, how I sort of got there. So, I got a little sidetracked by the cafe stuff, but we, you know, eventually decided to start roasting our own coffee. And when we did that, my good friend Liam sort of spearheaded the program. And then when they were looking for someone else to start roasting, you know, I was like, "Yeah, I really want to like do something else, you know, figure out how to get deeper." And we had another person on the team, our friend Colleen, who, she was doing the first stage of the green buying, just because she had connections from some previous coffee jobs and she was really eager and she did a fantastic job setting us up with our first couple of really strong relationships. But I got a chance to travel to Nicaragua with our, another good friend and former supplier from a previous roaster before he did his started doing his own importing named Steve Mirsch. His family has at least eight farms in in Nicaragua and invited a couple of us to travel. And that was the moment where I was like, "Oh, okay." Being in the back of the pickup truck, going up the mountain with a couple friends through, you know, this kind of misty coffee jungle and sort of being like, "This is where coffee comes from. Like this rules. I want to be here. Like I want to figure out how to be here and like engage more with these people and learn more about what's happening on the ground," and and all that stuff. So, it was a really big and really special moment. And then with Colleen, I got to travel to Honduras and to El Salvador a couple years later and that was amazing as well. And and then she ended up deciding she wanted to go to nursing school and I was like "It's my chance!" you know, and yeah, they the the owners of of Grumpy didn't want to like force the job on me, but you know, they were starting to put out a hiring thing and I was like, "Guys, I really want to do that job." And they were like, "Oh, really? Okay, great." So, yeah, it was a pretty awesome and sort of natural progression. I kind of went from being a barista to a barista and a roaster part-time to a roaster for most of the time, then to a buyer and a roaster some of the time. And then as we grew, we were expanding. We opened um the cafe. I think when we started roasting was around the time we opened the cafe in Park Slope. So we had three locations and then they opened the Lower East Side and Grand Central and sort of more growth started happening and soon we needed to get a bigger roasting machine and it was it was great because we were able to to grow with some of the producers we had developed our very first partnerships with. Colleen had really set a lot of the stage in Latin America. So for that it was kind of maintaining maybe stretching out a little bit. But when there was room to do, so or I was introduced to someone, I was like, "Oh, this is like someone I really want to work with and I dive with and I love their coffee." But I was really excited about East Africa. So that was sort of my area that I wanted to develop and focus on finding really great partners there. And yeah, like every industry, there's big conferences that happen and there's one that happens in the US every year that's hosted by the Specialty Coffee Association and that's tied in with a barista competition, a roasting competition, what they call the cup tasters competition. And of course, it's a big expo, you know, it's like a long weekend with tons of events and panel discussions and— RT: Everyone's literally buzzing. CK: Everyone's literally buzzing in all the ways. It's a long, it's a very kind of joyful, partying, exhausting, all of the things weekend. But I found out about, wasn't quite the same, but a similar idea that was happening in Africa that's called AFAC, which was called the African Fine Coffees Association conference. I believe it was 2013 that I went on my very first trip and I went to Burundi to the conference because I thought well what better way to meet a bunch of people from different countries and I was also interested in Burundi and that turned out to be a life-changing experience because I met this woman who became a fantastic partner and friend and many many other people who had become good partners and friends at that event too. Those events though sometimes can be overwhelming and kind of silly, they can also be very fruitful and wonderful. RT: Oh, that sounds amazing. So, what's the difference of this physical experience from a coffee farm in East Africa versus some of the ones that you visited in Latin America? CK: Good question. So typically one of the major differences is that the farms in Latin America are usually owned by independent families, whereas in East Africa it's a lot of larger cooperatives. So people in East Africa might just have a couple trees at home or a small very small plot of land that wouldn't be enough to produce even a bag of coffee, right? So they join together. Sometimes these are thousands of people, cooperatives that deliver to a central washing station, combine their efforts, combine their resources, you know, work together for fertilizer, for food, for funding, everything that they need kind of works in this cooperative way. Whereas in Latin America, it's usually there are co-ops there too, of course, but usually single families that are, you know, generations worth of these bigger parcels of land, especially I mean Brazil is sort of its own universe because it's like large flat more commercially viable like biggest producer globally biggest producer and Colombia as well is like just a really gigantic scale but much more mountainous and not as excess possible like in Brazil they can actually use kind of like tractor type of farming. Colombia is much more hand harvesting and a lot more diversity and elevation. But yes, so it's it's usually much bigger operations versus very very tiny group efforts in in East Africa. RT: Oh, that's so interesting. That's so interesting. \[Music\] RT: So, it sounds like you really investigated every area of the coffee business and then you went to a new place. You went into wine. So, tell me about that transition of coming into the wine world. Of course, we're both alums of the Sommelier Society of America where we have a shared mentor who the great Rudi Eilers, who sadly passed away recently. This is another field with a lot of science and culture and agriculture and everything. So what what was that transition for you like moving from the coffee world into the wine world? CK: Kind of as we were talking about earlier my initial interest was a little more cocktail-centric in the alcoholic realm and for a long time I was like I can't like wine too because it's just too expensive and I can't afford to like all these things! And then at some point, you know, a little voice in my head, I was like, "But there's got to be like wines that aren't that expensive that are like pretty good, right? My partner and I started exploring like Portuguese wine and Spanish wine." It's like there's a lot of killer value wines and just little by little like, oh, and like Riesling, like what is it? you know, it's like, you know, it's good, you know, it's cool, but what you know, it's so that's another like really vast, but that was something we were always like, we like, we know we like that, but it is like it's a huge umbrella. It's so many different things. And also having a couple of friends say like, oh, check this out, you know, asking for those insider tips and not being afraid to to try something strange and maybe a little out of your comfort zone. It was like right going sort of into the pandemic, I was starting to think about transitioning into wine and wasn't really sure like how it would feel or if I really wanted to or exactly how it would how it would work. And I ended up working with someone who I consider now to be a mentor too because she really opened my eyes to a lot of amazing natural wines, my friend Lauren who was doing the wine program at Cafe Kitsune because of the pandemic got to we we we got to come become a bottle shop for a second and I just took that opportunity to buy everything. I was like, "This is going to be my chance to learn everything about these wines." And she did a really cool job of choosing in this way that I used to do these small producers. And I would try like three or four different wines of theirs, like back to back. And it was just so cool because I was like, "Oh, this is what they're doing. Okay, this is like great." In terms of flavors, I mean, just like with what I was doing in coffee, you know, it's like the same thing you're doing as a somm and a professional evaluator of anything, right? You're you're smelling it, you're tasting it, you're thinking about the acidity, the body, the mouth feel, the finish. It's like I I was telling Rudi and Dylan at SSA when I first started, I was like, "There's a score sheet for coffee that's just like this!" And I was kind of showing them and I, you know, I don't know if they were like, that geeked on it, but I was just like, ah, you know, like cool. It's obviously a little bit different. And I think one of the fun things about the wine part of it is you're also analyzing age, which with coffee, you really are dealing with something fresh or you want to be dealing with something fresh. There are different schools of like some people now will like freeze coffee and try aging it and some regions I think like maybe Sumatra which is a pretty kind of unusual one and usually has like a—I'm going to say the f-word funky!—flavor profile but usually more earthy a little more like kind of cedar and spice and sometimes can even taste a little bit dirty but stuff like that can sometimes benefit in a way from age anyway wine I think is Cool. Because you're dealing with age, you're dealing with vessels like, you know, is it oak? Is it stainless steel? Is it amphora? Is it cement? Is it a combination of those? Is it filtered? Has it had lees contact? Like all these cool things that impact the flavor, which a lot of those same things exist in coffee. There's a fermentation phase. There's skin contact. RT: Yes. CK: You know, there's like the natural process, which is where the coffee is dried with the skin on, so it's much fruitier. It also can be a little more like fermented-tasting. Honestly, it can have a boozy quality to it. And that's also really common in, Ethiopia, I feel like, is really famous for their natural coffees that have like a blueberry and vanilla kind of profile. RT: I think I forget that coffee is a fruit. CK: Yeah. Yeah. Right. RT: And they're both—can you describe to us, what does the plant look like? CK: Yeah. It's a shrub. It's a shrub with big big leaves. But yeah, it's a cherry. The coffee it's, yeah. literally just like a grape. It's not a cluster. They're individually, you know, picked per perfect ripeness by color, but there's something. It starts as a flower, you know, and then it's a little green bud and then it turns more kind of purpley red. My expanding my finger to show the growth inside of the fruit. There are two seeds and that's what we that's what we get, those two seeds. So, it's two seeds of this this fruit that goes through all of this crazy stuff. That's another huge difference because once it is out of the coffee grower's hands, it still has to go through so many other processes, right? So once it gets shipped, somebody has to buy it, somebody has to roast it, somebody has to grind it, somebody has to brew it. So there's a whole lot of other steps that make it. RT: Yeah. Whereas with wine, other than making sure that you store it properly, right, you open it, it's a finished product. You pour it into a glass. CK: It's a finished product. Yeah. RT: But of course it's been through different sorts of aging and you know there's a lot of steps. Now I love what you were talking about with the tasting. I like to tell my students I I teach now at the at the Sommelier Society that it's a multi-factorial analysis and there's so many different variables. It's you know, it's something that is really really endless, but there's definitely crossover. Another crossover I'm thinking about is terroir, sense of place. You were talking a little bit about that with Brazil and using a tractor versus hand-harvesting, differences in elevation. What are some other things that, when you got into the wine world, your understanding of coffee terroir opened you up to, as people were talking about wine variables? CK: I guess it's something that's happening in both industries right now in a way that's sort of confounding is that people are trying to make things taste like other things. If that makes sense. RT: What do you mean? CK: What I mean is people are processing coffees now in a way to try to make them taste like coffees from other regions. So doing things like carbonic maceration and doing things like different types of skin contact or fermentation with like fruit juice like pomegranate juice or you know different different things to try to bring out or enhance or just adapt or change the flavors. And I think in wine similarly there's you know people who are experimenting with obviously the craze of orange wine but different kind of levels of fermentation or different kind of vessels and are doing less traditional things. So when you do a blind tasting or you are giving someone kind of with like a sly wink like oh this is a Pinot Noir or like and it's gone through some crazy—there are things where you're like I would never guess that this was what you're saying it is, because it's it's gone through this certain type of process with the skin contact or the amphora aging or whatever it is. And I feel like there's a trend of like pushing sort of the envelope in both of, like what can this be? But, I think in both there's a beauty to and an importance of having the sense of place and having the thing taste like what it "should," I'm doing air quotes again, taste like. So there's kind of a fun in between world where there's like yeah that thing where uh I'm thinking this morning I visited Cafe Grumpy just over the weekend to wish them a happy new year and was given a bag of coffee from Honduras and just been enjoying it so much because it tastes exactly like I remember exactly like it's supposed to and it brings me there. I feel like a great comfort in tasting it. It's not trying to be anything else. It's just beautiful and it's what it is. RT: Yeah. I love what you were saying about blind tasting being kind of blown up by—But you know that's what I love about this. That's what I love about it. CK: It's fun and it's crazy. RT: I know. No, that's I mean. I teach this, right? But and I love it. I love it because and it's something, I adore about the natural wine world because at the same time this thing that feels so experimental is also really a lot of time I mean some stuff is completely new and and the for instance making skin contact sometimes so-called orange wines all over the world where they you know had been traditional to to only specific certain areas that would be an example of a total innovation and change. But then also people rediscovering wine styles and grapes. I mean, that's been so wonderful. People reviving grapes that had completely fallen out of favor and having to look back a couple of generations to try to figure out what those wines were supposed to taste like because it had fallen out of favor. I think the thing to remember is that just because some people wrote a textbook at a certain point in time, that doesn't mean that that is wine. CK: Yeah. RT: Or that that is coffee. I mean we have hundreds thousands of years of tradition to go back where the plants themselves were changing and evolving as well as human practices as well as the climate as well as everything. I mean, people used to the most prized world wines in the world were like sweet and fortified wine. There were grapes that we we know of that you start to look into grape genetic history that started out as a white wine and somehow changed. So I mean just you know to not be too precious about these things and to realize that everything changes. But speaking of changes, talking about climate change, talking about how getting into drinks gets a person into agriculture and sustainability. How did those experiences for you of traveling, whether in a coffee farm or in a vineyard, inform your thinking about sustainability? CK: It's kind of crazy, you know, to see what's going on on the other side because there's a lot of just the way that resources are used in other parts of the world versus the United States. People are very aware of their usage and they have, you know, a respect and a limitation, and water is a huge deal. Turns out. This is, you know, similar in the wine world, too. And I know some of the folks that we work with in tiny appellations in Hungary and stuff, they just don't have water. There are places that are totally dry farmed. And Brazil, coming back to them. Like their coffee there is almost entirely naturally processed or dry processed because there's just no way they could use that much water. It would be just impossible. Like actually like not feasible or smart or I don't think actually like literally possible. So yeah, it makes you think about all kinds of things. And yeah, I got to do a really cool thing in Uganda. Gosh, I think it was in 2015 or '16 where I got to spend a week helping an importing partner of mine train a team of people how to use some roasting equipment so that they could have like a quality control lab at their milling station. And they were doing a competition like a these these are kind of common in coffee. They call them microlot competitions where people will have like you know it could be the equivalent of I don't know it's usually at least half of a bag so like 50 pounds or something worth of green coffee that they'll put into an auction and people will compete against each other to get their placement of you know notoriety and then people will bid on the coffees, right? So we're training this team in a very rural face. The electricity was really shaky. It rained all the time. The power went out constantly. We were trying to encourage them to use filtered water because it has like a more neutral flavor. That's another thing about coffee. The water is a huge thing, right? Is it's mostly water. What you're drinking is mostly water. So, if you're using filtered water, where you are, what your tap is like, all of that stuff makes a huge difference, right? So, we're trying to like encourage them to use bottled water but or filtered water, but we're like that's not a long-term they're not going to do that. They can't do that, really. So, it was like something that we kind of were working through with them. But just yeah being in this small building where the power kept going out and we just kept figuring it out and we were using all these electric kettles which, even in the US, you trip the breaker if you have more than two, three going at once you know so being like oh yeah this is how we do it and this totally makes sense! Like, no. You have to, like, every time this happens this guy has to get on the roof do a thing. I feel like most places will use like a gigantic kettle because it just makes more sense for them. But yeah, just seeing how things actually function and figuring out a way to have a language of quality control and sharing. Even tasting notes, you know, it's like what you taste and what other people taste are different. The fruits you taste, the sweets you taste, the sugars you taste, sugar cane versus panela versus honey, what kind of honey, you know, and like that's the kind of stuff that like we would try to get really deep on, but it's like, is that fair? They need to have access to these. You know, there's kits that the Specialty Coffee Association offers that have sort of like here's a jam that's like you don't have blueberries where you are, but this is how we describe what this thing, you know, but it's like— RT: That has to be translated. That has to be translated. And and think in in terms of diversity of experiences, if the people who write the tasting notes are all from one place and one culture— CK: Totally. It doesn't work! RT: Well, and and also just there's this whole realm of experience that's lost. CK: No, for sure. RT: And like, oh, this tastes like jackfruit. Okay! CK: You know, and it's subjective. Like it's not nobody's experience is invalid. It's like it's— RT: Oh, I love I love talking about this! Because in terms of learning how to taste and developing a palate and something— there's these two differences, right? There's a translation of your cultural palate, you know, based on the fruits and the the flavors that are available to you in your area and your culture. And then there's also we are all in different bodies. CK: Yeah. RT: We all connect a little differently to our brains. I do think of it as a translation in the world of tasting these things. You have this tip of the tongue sensation. Oh, what does that smell like? And so you're what you're really honing is your ability to quickly name to make stronger and quicker associations between those sense memories. And that's very intimate, you know, and the moments I think where people end up sort of crying or something. It can be because, oh, this is so good and this is so fine, but it can also be, oh, this reminds me of this jam that my grandmother cooked or something like, you know, it's a very intimate experiences. CK: Of course. And that's the cool thing about sensory, just in general is like, yeah, smells and tastes! There are things that like suddenly you're like, "Oh, I'm in a really specific, you know, like I'm in a room." I actually had a really cool moment when I started repping. And that actually there was like a tie-in somewhere along this conversation. Sales was the one job I never did in coffee. So, I ended up being excited to try it because it was something I never did. And it's so fun to work with tons of different people all over New York City. It's like the most RT: It was fun. I loved that job. CK: Yeah. just really cool experience and way to connect with folks you would never get to meet. I had this really cool experience in one of my earlier um phases of repping where I took out a wine. It was a Greek wine to one of my accounts and someone really like closed their eyes. I could tell they were having a really personal moment and they were just like, "This takes me to like a riverbank." Like they were just having a really specific moment and it was really cool. But then one of my coffee friends was visiting and the same day had almost the exact same reaction. And I was like almost like crying! Because it was so cool that these two totally different people from these to totally different places had this connective but separate moment with the same wine. And I was like this rules! Like what is h—like that's so beautiful. It was just a really magical. There was just, yeah, it was just kind of like this deep earthy muddy like just wet leaves like I don't know. It was all of these. It was like a childhood like deep dive moment. And I was like I feel so grateful to witness this. And it's like such a cool thing like that your senses can do. That you lock these things in and you have no idea when they're going to come out. It's such a neat thing when uh when you're not expecting it, to just be taken away. RT: I love that we're talking about this because I see a bit of a moment right now where people are turning away from tasting notes on the grounds that they're exclusionary. And I just that's not my experience with tasting notes. And I can see if it's the thing that says, "This is what I taste and if you don't taste this, you're wrong or you're stupid," you know and and I can see that you misused that maybe that tasting notes could have that effect, but that's not my experience at all. I love tasting notes because they can do what you just described. It's it's kind of like confusing the land for the map, right? But it's I mean maps are really useful, but you don't want to just read a map. CK: No! RT: You want to go into the land, which actually kind of describes the experience of studying wine, you know, because if you haven't a chance to travel to all these places, but what I'm saying is that something like you just described where this experience of flavor brings people together, being able to creatively and humbly present, describe what a wine or coffee tastes like and smells like it and makes you feel I think tasting notes when they're at their best. They do bring in the human experience and they communicate a human experience that other people can relate to. It's not esoteric. It's not, it doesn't push people away. It should absolutely bring people together. CK: Yeah. RT: What I hope is when people hear about something that's not familiar to them that we can respond with curiosity. CK: Mhm. RT: You know, I do see people trying to move away from subjective tasting notes towards things like structure, acidity, things that are supposedly objective and that we can all agree on. CK: Yeah. RT: As a way of being more universal. But I don't know. Well, I think maybe I'm just romantic because I have a poetry degree, but I think that these kind of more romantic, subjective, memory laden, context laden tasting and aroma cues, I hope they can bring bring people together. CK: I think they can. I will tell you I had a a really like something that also transformed my way of thinking while I was working with Lauren was I had spent so much time with coffee trying to make not super literal tasting notes but pretty pretty literal, pretty specific, pretty like, honest and simple, like you know, what is representing the flavor the acidity the mouth feel like three you know is it chocolate orange almonds you know like starfruit that's like a fancy one, but you know, starfruit, blueberry, vanilla, whatever it is, like what's something that represents the sweetness? What's something that represents sort of the overall effect? And then, yeah, is it like a fruit thing, a non-fruit? Again, wine, like fruit, non-fruit. The menu that Lauren launched when she was doing the wine program at Kitsune was really fun and really cheeky. And at first when I looked at it, I was like, is this real? You know, and then people loved it. People responded so well to it. It was like a really like for me it was like I didn't know if it was I don't know it was just RT: You're like is this correct? Is this right? Can we? CK: And it's it should be fun. And I think that's the other thing that you know wine sort of struggles to to find the balance with is taking itself too seriously or being you know, fun and conversational and easy and approachable, right? Which is what I think all of us really want at the end of the day. But yeah, there was just something about the approach that worked so well and it was simple. It was really simple and just, you know, it was like a one-liner. Maybe it did say something about the taste or the smell. Maybe it was totally like I want this color. I want this I'm trying to remember the specific one. It's like I want this shade. No, I want this color as a lipstick. Basically, I'm trying to Yeah. RT: Like, yeah, just, you know, sort of I'm thinking of our friend Rudy talking about a certain wine being something that you would drink at home on a Thursday night watching Law and Order, right? CK: And that's a totally valid tasting note, right? Or not a tasting note, but a descriptor. A way to talk about the wine. RT: It's comforting. It's not too fancy. It's not for showing off, but it's just like a nice sweet spot. CK: Yep. RT: Old favorite. Yeah. And you know, as long as you know what Law and Order is, you know, you immediately knew what he was talking about. I think what got us into trouble with tasting notes was just sort of celebrity critic culture and everybody assuming that just not having enough voices involved. you know, if there's only one voice involved, you know, or only a few voices involved, a few very similar voices, with this kind of critic score rating system— CK: And things get homogeneous and people take things at face value or too seriously— RT: —or or then that that starts to affect the market and and what's available. RT: Exactly. Everybody's here, everybody's drinking, everybody's tasting, and whatever you're tasting, you're not wrong. You're not wrong! And and there can always be ways that we can refine and improve our communication and our appreciation about things. You know, there's certainly wines that I tasted initially that I just didn't understand and then after learning a little bit more about the process, I'm like, "Oh, that's why this flavor arises"—or acquired taste, all these different things. Yeah. I just think jumping into these things, if you think if people are so shy and they're so worried about saying something wrong. I think that a lot of things about the wine world are accountable for for this, for pushing people away. But, you know, if you're in there and you you want to get in there and you're interested, just I mean, bare minimum, maybe I'll answer this for wine, and you can answer it for coffee. How to taste something, how to start tasting. You look for one thing you see, one thing you smell, and one thing you taste. CK: Yeah. RT: Write down something about the color. CK: Yes. RT: Write down something about you sm—and and write something subjective! CK: This reminds me of This is actually something you and I talked about recently that I'm going to I'm going to throw in here, but let it sit! If it's coffee, let it cool down a little bit. If it's wine, let it warm up a little bit. The flavor's going to change. Different things are going to jump out. Things are going to unlock for you. Let it sit. Maybe the coffee is going to get a little sweeter. Maybe the acidity is going to get a little brighter. Maybe it's the finish is going to last a little longer. With the wine, maybe it's going to get a little the body is going to express itself a little differently. Maybe you're going to get more fruit. Let the temperature adjust a little bit to the room. Don't be afraid to let it sit. Don't feel like—the hardest thing with coffee when it's really hot, you just it tastes like coffee. It doesn't taste like, I don't want to say, it doesn't taste like anything. It does, but it's it's less expressive than when you let it cool down a little bit. And I feel like a lot of the time the tendency to add milk and sugar comes because you taste it at this duller kind of less expressed moment because it's really hot. You want it to cool down. You want to drink it. You need caffeine. You're tired. And milk and sugar are delicious, by the way. They're totally fine. There's not a wrong way. If it's good for you and it makes you feel good, it's okay. Like, go with it. Trust. Yeah. I would say don't be afraid to to let it hang out for a minute. RT: I love how this brings it back to this vision that you gave earlier in the interview about bringing in a fancy coffee machine that takes a little longer and making New Yorkers sit sit still for a second. I imagine New Yorkers with this hot cup of deli coffee with tons of sugar. Blazing hot! Versus this this experience of really taking in. CK: Well and it's also funny to call it a long process when it's like a minute, long! To make a thing, right? Which is like, in real time, nothing. And now that people are doing pourover and, that's like three or four minutes! Like are you kidding? I'm pretending to pull out my hair but it's like are you kidding me? When that became a thing people really lost their mind. And I think again it was a balance of like the people who were like, "No, actually this is cool and I'm here for it." And then everyone else could get espresso. You know, we did eventually put in uh drip coffee at Chelsea \[Cafe Grumpy\], but like yeah, we have filtered coffee, too. And that's great. The drip, it's like delicious and awesome when properly dialed in. But yeah, you know, it's like it's a thing. It's nice to take a minute and like just hang out. \[Pause\] RT: How do you make coffee in the morning? CK: I use a Chemex. So, a pourover takes about five minutes. It's not a big deal, but it is a nice process where it's like you get up, start the water, maybe I jump in the shower, come back. I have an electric kettle, so I'm not leaving the stove unattended. Don't worry. But come back, get the coffee ready, grind it, smell it, just feel happy and excited, you know, prep the filter. I usually just wet the filter a little bit, put the coffee in, start brewing. Couple minutes later, I'm in my happy place. RT: That sounds great, Cheryl. That sounds great. Oh, it's so nice to talk to you. We didn't even really get to talk that much about music. I think we'll send off the show with a little clip of you playing music of you playing the saxophone. So, we'll let that fly. CK: Wonderful. RT: And until then, thank you so much for talking with me today. CK: Pleasure. Yeah. RT: And to all of our listeners, thank you for being here. Wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. \[Clip of The Scene is Now, live performance\] Support us on Patreon. Grab the newsletter at mododibere.com and subscribe to the YouTube channel @mododibere to watch the travel show Modo di Bere TV. Music for the show was composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou. Purchase their music at the link in the notes. \[NOTE: **We are no longer using Patreon!** Become a member [right here](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e14-tazzelenghe-the-tongue-cutter/#/portal/) to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\] Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Wayne Young ❤️ Refosco ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e13-wayne-young-friulian-wine-podcast/) [ Holiday Wine Pairing Guide ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e11-holiday-wine-pairing-guide/) ### Open Your Wine Autumn URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/open-your-wine-autumn/ Last updated: 2026-08-21T05:05:30.000Z Fall is the best season for drinking wine, and typical wine media doesn’t want you to know. Industry folks have a particular mania for prescribing summertime wines. Every year around late spring there’s an absolute deluge of writing telling you what to drink on your patio and what to drink with your barbecue and by the pool and at the beach and, by the way, did you know rosé can be *serious* too? This yearly summer wine PR blitz has always struck me as they-doth-protest too much, due to the anxious reality that in really hot weather, it’s almost always nicer to just have a beer. There’s a sad desperation to the song and dance it takes enjoy wine when it’s fucking roasting outside. Ice buckets and spritz glasses sweating puddles of condensation all over your dinner table, stashing bottles in the freezer because your fridge isn’t cutting it. After all that effort, the wine warms up anyway at the third or fourth sip. > “There’s a sad desperation to the song and dance it takes enjoy wine when it’s fucking roasting outside.” That’s why I personally get a bit giddy when the sun backs off, making way for that first crisp note of sweater weather. The thrill of being able to open my windows and open any bottle I want, without stressing that it’s too warm, hits me with the perfect breeze. After an oppressive summer, real, proper *wine season* is finally back! Get out your broadest-shouldered reds and quit pretending the chillable stuff was scratching the same itch. Our long nightmare is over! Some combination of this liberated atmosphere and the bacchanalian connotations of harvest-time produce in me a vicious urge to tear through the back-catalog of wines I’ve built up throughout the year, in apology to those lovely bottles I neglected in their fridge while I was down at the pub crushing pilsners. Autumn is the season where no bottle is safe. The silly-expensive Barolo I bought myself as a birthday present three years ago, the white Burgundy I spent a day’s pay on because I was already a bit drunk when I walked into the shop, that culty Cab Franc I’d been procrastinating on while devising an appropriate pairing: it’s all fair game. Any bottle whose drinking window I can justify if I squint a bit had better start getting its affairs in order. I’ve come to relish autumn as a deliberate antidote to that problem I face the whole rest of the year where any bottle beyond a certain threshold of expense, rarity, or sentimentality ends up sitting around in my fridge indefinitely because I’m waiting for a special occasion. Who am I fooling? When I actually do get surprised by good news, I buy a fresh bottle of Champagne anyway. Starting last year, I formalized this annual cellar cleanout into a personal holiday season I call Open Your Wine Autumn. #OYWA if you prefer: somebody come up with a viral TikTok dance. To better understand, appreciate, and participate in OYWA, please consult the following bible: 1. OYWA is a season-long, blanket Special Occasion for all the bottles you’ve been sitting on. 2. The OYWA gods will accept any number of offerings, but pious observants work their way through as many bottles as possible by December 21st. 3. OYWA has some chronological overlap with the extant holidays, but opening something fancy for Thanksgiving is not observing OYWA. Opening something fancy with your reheated Thanksgiving leftovers, however, *is* OYWA. 4. Stressing out over the perfect pairing or hosting an elaborate dinner just to open your wine is contrary to the spirit of OYWA. Traditional OYWA meals include comfort food, delivery from your favorite restaurant, or a visit to your favorite BYOB spot. Underthink it. 5. The principles of OYWA are spontaneity, hedonism, generosity, and living in the moment. I would encourage any wine lover with one or more mature bottles currently gathering dust to adopt this holiday, not least because a new autumnal wine holiday will let us stop trying to make Beaujolais Nouveau catch on again. After you’ve broken through your cellar perfectionism and offered a few bottles to the OYWA gods, you too might discover that quiet, life-affirming thrill to silence, for once, the neurotic voice that always tells you that the bottle is ‘too nice’ for tonight, for no other reason than a vague sense of economy or obligation. To finally breaking the chain of declaring, for dozens or hundreds of consecutive nights, that this day of your life is “not special enough” for pleasure. Should you get hit by the proverbial bus, your heirs could turn out to be the kinds of reprobates who post blurry photos of your collection on r/wine captioned “How much is this worth?” Best to live a little and enjoy yourself while you still can. Open your wine! > “To finally break the chain of declaring, for dozens or hundreds of consecutive nights, that this day of your life is ‘not special enough’ for pleasure.” ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/OYWA-Bottles.jpg) **2025 offerings to the OYWA gods* ### ▷S4E11 Italian Wines vs. American Fall & Winter Holidays URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e11-holiday-wine-pairing-guide/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T22:33:33.000Z The best food and wine pairings have something called "muscle." Modo di Bere host Rose Thomas Bannister illuminates the Italian gems that will take your holiday wine pairings from the usual suspects to the sweet spot amid the tannin, acid, fruit and fat. Please enjoy the audio version of Modo di Bere Magazine's Fall & Winter Holiday Wine Pairing Guide. Click [here](https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/fall-winter-holiday-guide/2025) to read and refer to the written guide. For a review of the basic principles of food and wine pairing, revisit RT's interview with pairing expert Joyce Lin from[ Season 2, Episode 5](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e5-food-and-wine-pairing-with-joyce-lin/). View Transcript Imagine you’re a holiday dish. Pumpkin pie. Mashed potatoes. Roast beast. The wine in the glass should approach your rich forkfuls like a sparring partner who literally keeps you on your toes, like a dancing partner with “muscle,” pushing against your hands just a little bit so there’s enough resistance to feel what you communicate by pushing back. We’re told that food and wine pairing is about harmony, but that doesn’t mean one player is a pushover. A good conversation partner doesn’t insult you, but that doesn’t mean they agree with everything you say. A great pairing includes an element of surprise. Late-year American holidays are all about fat: gravy, casserole, cheese stretching between the utensil and the mac and cheese. Bygone traditional foodways, virtually extinct, land on the holiday table and gleam with gravitas. These moments scream for wines high in acid, tannin, and flavor, to clean your mouth and prepare it for the next loaded, herby, spicy bite. Enter Italy. Italian wines have backbone, just like the country itself, with its mountainous spine. Traditional grape varieties grown on steep slopes and rolling hills become high-personality wines, perfect for standing up to bold flavors and rich textures. The reds are high in tannin, in acid. The whites are expressive, the bubbles exuberant. And the traditional rosés, properly called rosatos in Italy, can be so dark in color that they’re nearly “chilled reds.” I love them. I love them all. And I love sharing them with you. **Cheese Board vs. Etna Bianco** Did you know that white wines are actually more fabulous than red wines for pairing with cheese? I’ve chosen a white wine born on the Sicilian volcano for your holiday cheese board because the bright blend of Catarratto and Carricante, combined with that extra umph that volcanic soil tends to impart, is the perfect opening pairing for a holiday full of intriguing combinations. **Snack Board vs. Sardinian White** I imagine that your snack board includes a “relish tray” (known on the east coast as crudites), crackers or sourdough bread, some lovely cured meats and some trendy tinned fish. Growing up in the Midwest, we had a literal plastic tray with wedge-shaped compartments for carrot and celery sticks, radish quarters, baby sour pickles and black olives from a can. The central, round compartment contained ranch dressing. Bright veggie flavors, oily tinned fish, luscious salumi and especially pickles call for a savory wine aged under flor, like fino or manzanilla sherry from Southern Spain. Did you know they make a wine like that in Italy? I almost don’t want to tell you about **Vernaccia di Oristano** because you’re so unlikely to find it. Luckily I have a second Sardinian suggestion for your snack pairing needs: **Vermentino**. Ask for one from Gallura, the DOCG zone for this wine, but a good Vermentino from Cinque Terre or Tuscany can also deliver lime and tropical fruit flavors with a salty, savory finish. (A DOCG is the top quality category of Italian wine regions, but there are many excellent wines to be found in the DOC and IGT categories as well.) **Latkes vs Asolo Prosecco** Don’t sleep on Prosecco, I always say, but also don’t pair your latkes with a bottle that’s simple, cheap and sweet. A crisp-perfect latke, whether gobbled straight from the hot pan by a hungry chef or plated with creme fraiche and fancy fish eggs, would be mind-blowing with a sip of **Asolo Prosecco**. The Valdobbiadene DOCG in Proseccoland is rightfully getting some attention for its high-end, fresh and floral Proseccos born in beautiful terraced vineyards, but the wines from Asolo DOCG offer a mineral note like a salty surprise. If you can’t find these specific Proseccos at your local shop, look for a “**Col Fondo**” style—the cloudy Prosecco made in an ancient style before pet-nat was hip. **Lobster Mac vs Collio Pinot Blanc** I’m crazy about the indigenous varieties of Friuli-Venezia Giulia, as fans of this[ **podcast**](https://www.mododibere.com/paul-balke/) well know, but the “international” (French) vines also have a long history in the region. There is a grape variety that Friulian winemakers speak about with deepest respect, and that grape is **Pinot Blanc**. My personal tasting note for a cool, creamy Pinot Blanc is that it reminds me of a snowy winter day. The elegance and minerality typical to the **Collio** region will match your seafood in fanciness and weight, with sufficient acidity to cut through a melange of melty cheese. **Mushroom Wellington vs Vino Nobile di Montepulciano** While a Barolo or Brunello would be a traditional match for a mushroom main, I’m trying to steer away from the famous Italian styles that people reach for at the holidays without my help. May I please introduce you to **Vino Nobile di Montepulciano.** This Sangiovese-based blend is produced in and around the Tuscan town of Montepulciano, and should not be confused with wines made from theMontepulciano *grape* popular in Abruzzo. Vino Nobile is a gorgeous expression of Sangiovese that, to my senses, often presents notes of mushrooms and a little sweet mint. Swap it out where you’d use Barolo or Pinot Noir with your next earthy dish, and please write me to let me know what you think! **Roast Beast vs Aglianico** People need to drink more **Aglianico**, and your holiday “roast beast” is the perfect excuse. Aglianico is the great red grape of southern Italy, holding court with Nebbiolo in the north and Sangiovese in the center. It’s big, it’s dark, it’s high in acid and tannin. Aglianico develops gorgeous, complex flavors with age, and it’s got a burlier character than the Barolos and Brunellos you already know. Aglianico from the larger, regional DOCs offers great value, but stricter aging requirements make for serious, holiday-worthy bottles in the three DOCGs for Aglianico: Taburno and Taurasi from Campania and Vulture from Basilicata. You could make trying them all your whole personality! **Thanksgiving vs Valpolicella Superiore** I’ve been sitting on the perfect wine pairing for turkey, mashed potatoes and gravy, stuffing and cranberry sauce. I’ve had it under my hat since long before I had a magazine to share it in, and now the moment has finally arrived! A drumroll, please, for **Valpolicella Superiore.** If you like Italian wines, or if you visit Italian-American family at Christmastime, I bet you’ve heard of Amarone, a huge wine with flavors and alcohol boosted by a second fermentation with dried grapes. But Amarone would overwhelm poultry. Amarone would drown out the delicate sage in your stuffing, the cranberry in your sauce. The un-refermented wines from the Valpolicella region are made from the same blend of Corvina, Rondinella and Molinara grapes. These are fresh, medium bodied reds with typical notes of cherry and a touch of pepper that will echo your gravy’s spice. A bright and juicy Valpolicella Classico will do, but the Superiore version, with a little extra flavor and weight, hits the sweet spot for balancing a bite of juicy roasted turkey with crispy skin. **Brussels Sprouts vs Pecorino** While I wish you a delicious and non-bitter sprout for your holiday, that’s not to say that this isn’t a tricky pair. To match a green vegetable with a personality, I offer **Pecorino**. This is a grape popular in the central Italian regions of Marche and Abruzzo that I recommend to lovers of Chenin Blanc. It’s got a fascinating texture and a note of sourish green melon candy that will play nicely with your holiday vegetable sides.**Cerasuolo vs Hoppin John** Another disambiguation: I’m suggesting the characterful Italian **rosato** (rose) from Abruzzo, based on the **Montepulciano** grape, to pair with good luck, slow-simmered black-eyed peas and pork. Honestly, if you accidentally buy a **Cerasuolo di Vittoria**, a red wine from Sicily’s only DOCG, made with Nero d’Avola and Frappato, that pairing would also be great. But I invite you to search for a **Cerasuolo d’Abruzzo**, or another Italian rosato that’s darker than Provence-pink, so that you can join my crush on loud, flavorful Italian blush. **Three Types of Pie vs Three Lightly Sweet, Bubbly Wines** - Fruit pies: **Moscato d’Asti**. Try to spend at least 20 bucks, sip on this with fruit pie, and let the friendly bubbles comp your compote with surprising complexity. - Cream Pies: Pick up **Brachetto d’Acqui,** a sweet bubbly red from the same region, Piemonte, that’s known for pairing beautifully with chocolate, and sip it with a triangle of custardy coconut, banana creme or chocolate silk. - Pumpkin pie: Find a **Sweet Lambrusco** and indulge! This will also pair great with candied yams. Remember that dessert pairings are best when the wine is a little sweeter than the food, and save the dry Lambrusco for your savory sweet potatoes with brown butter and sage. **Gingerbread vs Sweet Marsala** If you can find a **sweet marsala** that’s priced above sauce-grade, I think this fortified wine from Sicily would be spectacular with gingerbread spice. If not, a **Vin Santo** from Tuscany, or a **Recioto** from the aforementioned Valpolicella region, would also be very nice! Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister [ Cheryl Kingan ☕️🍷 ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e12-cheryl-kingan/) [ Mezcal: A Farmer's Spirit ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e10-felipe-munoz-yola-mezcal/) ### Italian Wine vs American Fall & Winter Holidays URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/italian-wine-vs-american-fall-winter-holidays/ Last updated: 2026-08-21T05:05:48.000Z English Italiano Español 中文 🤖 Machine-translated by AI — not written or reviewed by Modo di Bere. Benvenuti all'ultima guida agli abbinamenti di vino italiano di Modo di Bere! *Clicca qui per la versione audio e sentire la pronuncia corretta di tutti questi vini.* Immagina di essere un piatto delle feste. Torta di zucca. Purè di patate. Arrosto imponente. Il vino nel bicchiere dovrebbe avvicinarsi alle tue forchettate ricche come un compagno di allenamento che letteralmente ti tiene sulle punte dei piedi, come un partner di ballo con "muscoli," che spinge contro le tue mani solo un po' così che ci sia abbastanza resistenza da sentire ciò che comunichi rispondendo alla spinta. Ci viene detto che l'abbinamento cibo-vino riguarda l'armonia, ma questo non significa che uno dei due giocatori debba essere remissivo. Un buon interlocutore non ti insulta, ma questo non significa che sia d'accordo con tutto quello che dici. Un grande abbinamento include un elemento di sorpresa. Le feste americane di fine anno riguardano tutte il grasso: sugo, casseruola, formaggio che si allunga tra la posata e il mac and cheese. Tradizioni gastronomiche del passato, praticamente estinte, atterrano sulla tavola delle feste e brillano di solennità. Questi momenti chiedono a gran voce vini alti in acidità, tannino e sapore, per pulire la bocca e prepararla al prossimo boccone carico, aromatico, speziato. Entra l'Italia. I vini italiani hanno spina dorsale, proprio come il paese stesso, con la sua spina dorsale montuosa. Vitigni tradizionali coltivati su pendii ripidi e colline ondulate diventano vini dalla forte personalità, perfetti per resistere a sapori decisi e trame ricche. I rossi sono alti in tannino, in acidità. I bianchi sono espressivi, le bollicine esuberanti. E i rosati tradizionali, chiamati propriamente rosati in Italia, possono essere così scuri di colore da sembrare quasi "rossi refrigerati." Li amo. Li amo tutti. E amo condividerli con voi. ### Tagliere di Formaggi contro Etna Bianco Sapevate che i vini bianchi sono in realtà più straordinari dei vini rossi per abbinarsi al formaggio? Ho scelto un vino bianco nato sul vulcano siciliano per il vostro tagliere di formaggi delle feste perché il vivace blend di Catarratto e Carricante, unito a quella marcia in più che il suolo vulcanico tende a conferire, è l'abbinamento d'apertura perfetto per una festa piena di combinazioni intriganti. ### Tagliere di Snack contro Bianco Sardo Immagino che il vostro tagliere di snack includa un "vassoio di verdure crude" (in Italia diremmo un pinzimonio), cracker o pane a lievitazione naturale, alcuni bei salumi e del pesce in scatola alla moda. Crescendo nel Midwest, avevamo un vero e proprio vassoio di plastica con scomparti a forma di cuneo per bastoncini di carota e sedano, quarti di ravanello, cetriolini sottaceto e olive nere in scatola. Lo scomparto centrale, rotondo, conteneva salsa ranch. Sapori vivaci di verdure, pesce in scatola oleoso, salumi succulenti e specialmente i sottaceti chiedono un vino sapido invecchiato sotto flor, come lo sherry fino o manzanilla della Spagna meridionale. Sapevate che fanno un vino simile anche in Italia? Non vorrei quasi parlarvi della Vernaccia di Oristano perché è così improbabile che la troviate. Fortunatamente ho un secondo suggerimento sardo per le vostre esigenze di abbinamento snack: il Vermentino. Non è invecchiato sotto flor, ma chiedete uno di Gallura, la zona DOCG per questo vino. Un buon Vermentino delle Cinque Terre o della Toscana può anche regalare sapori di lime e frutta tropicale con un finale salato e sapido. (Una DOCG è la categoria di qualità più alta delle regioni vinicole italiane, ma ci sono molti ottimi vini anche nelle categorie DOC e IGT.) ### Latkes contro Prosecco di Asolo Non sottovalutate mai il Prosecco, dico sempre, ma non abbinate nemmeno le vostre latkes a una bottiglia semplice, economica e dolce. Una latke perfettamente croccante, che sia divorata direttamente dalla padella calda da uno chef affamato o servita con panna acida e uova di pesce eleganti, sarebbe strabiliante con un sorso di Prosecco di Asolo. La Valdobbiadene DOCG nel Proseccoland sta giustamente ricevendo attenzione per i suoi Prosecchi raffinati, freschi e floreali nati in bellissimi vigneti terrazzati, ma i vini di Asolo DOCG offrono una nota minerale come una sorpresa salata. Se non riuscite a trovare questi Prosecchi specifici nel vostro negozio locale, cercate uno stile "Col Fondo"—il Prosecco torbido fatto in stile antico prima che il pet-nat diventasse di moda. ### Aragosta al Mac and Cheese contro Pinot Bianco del Collio Sono pazza dei vitigni autoctoni del Friuli-Venezia Giulia, come sanno bene i fan del podcast Modo di Bere, ma anche i vitigni "internazionali" (francesi) hanno una lunga storia nella regione. C'è un vitigno di cui i produttori friulani parlano con il massimo rispetto, ed è il Pinot Bianco. La mia nota di degustazione personale per un Pinot Bianco fresco e cremoso è che mi ricorda una giornata di neve invernale. L'eleganza e la mineralità tipiche della regione del Collio si abbineranno ai vostri frutti di mare in eleganza e peso, con acidità sufficiente per tagliare un intreccio di formaggio filante. ### Wellington ai Funghi contro Vino Nobile di Montepulciano Mentre un Barolo o un Brunello sarebbero un abbinamento tradizionale per un piatto principale ai funghi, sto cercando di allontanarmi dai famosi stili italiani a cui la gente ricorre durante le feste senza il mio aiuto. Posso presentarvi il Vino Nobile di Montepulciano. Questo blend a base di Sangiovese è prodotto nella zona intorno alla città toscana di Montepulciano, e non va confuso con i vini fatti dal vitigno Montepulciano popolare in Abruzzo. Il Vino Nobile è una splendida espressione del Sangiovese che, ai miei sensi, presenta spesso note di funghi e un po' di menta dolce. Sostituitelo dove usereste Barolo o Pinot Nero con il vostro prossimo piatto terroso, e scrivetemi per farmi sapere cosa ne pensate! ### Arrosto Imponente contro Aglianico Le persone hanno bisogno di bere più Aglianico, e il vostro "arrosto imponente" delle feste è la scusa perfetta. L'Aglianico è il grande vitigno rosso del sud Italia, alla pari con il Nebbiolo al nord e il Sangiovese al centro. È corposo, è scuro, è alto in acidità e tannino. L'Aglianico sviluppa sapori splendidi e complessi con l'invecchiamento, e ha un carattere più robusto dei Barolo e Brunello che già conoscete. L'Aglianico delle DOC regionali più ampie offre un ottimo rapporto qualità-prezzo, ma requisiti di invecchiamento più rigidi rendono le bottiglie delle tre DOCG per l'Aglianico serie e degne delle feste: Taburno e Taurasi dalla Campania e Vulture dalla Basilicata. Potreste farne la vostra intera personalità, provandoli tutti! ### Ringraziamento contro Valpolicella Superiore Ho tenuto in serbo l'abbinamento perfetto per tacchino, purè di patate e sugo, ripieno e salsa di mirtilli rossi. Lo custodisco da molto prima di avere una rivista in cui condividerlo, e ora il momento è finalmente arrivato! Un rullo di tamburi, per favore, per il Valpolicella Superiore. Se passate del tempo con italoamericani a Natale, scommetto che avete sentito parlare dell'Amarone, un vino potente con sapori e alcol amplificati da una seconda fermentazione con uve appassite. Ma l'Amarone sopraffarebbe il pollame. L'Amarone annegherebbe la delicata salvia nel vostro ripieno, il mirtillo rosso nella vostra salsa. I vini non rifermentati della regione della Valpolicella sono fatti con lo stesso blend di uve Corvina, Rondinella e Molinara. Sono rossi freschi, di corpo medio, con tipiche note di ciliegia e un tocco di pepe che faranno eco alla spezia del vostro sugo. Un Valpolicella Classico brillante e succoso andrà bene, ma la versione Superiore, con un po' di sapore e peso in più, coglie nel segno per bilanciare un boccone di tacchino arrosto succoso con la pelle croccante. ### Cavoletti di Bruxelles contro Pecorino Anche se vi auguro un cavoletto delizioso e non amaro per le vostre feste, questo non vuol dire che non sia un abbinamento insidioso. Per abbinare una verdura verde dalla forte personalità, propongo il Pecorino. Questo è un vitigno popolare nelle regioni dell'Italia centrale, Marche e Abruzzo, che raccomando agli amanti dello Chenin Blanc. Ha una consistenza affascinante e una nota di caramella acidula al melone verde che si sposerà bene con i vostri contorni di verdure delle feste. ### Cerasuolo d'Abruzzo contro Hoppin' John Un'altra disambiguazione: sto suggerendo il caratteristico rosato italiano dall'Abruzzo, a base del vitigno Montepulciano, da abbinare ai fagioli dall'occhio portafortuna cotti lentamente e al maiale. Onestamente, se comprate per sbaglio un Cerasuolo di Vittoria, un vino rosso dell'unica DOCG della Sicilia, fatto con Nero d'Avola e Frappato, anche quell'abbinamento sarebbe ottimo. Ma vi invito a cercare un Cerasuolo d'Abruzzo, o un altro rosato italiano più scuro del rosa provenzale, così che possiate unirvi alla mia infatuazione per il rosato italiano, chiassoso e ricco di sapore. ### Tre Tipi di Torta contro Tre Vini Frizzanti Leggermente Dolci - Torte di frutta: Moscato d'Asti. Cercate di spendere almeno 20 dollari, sorseggiatelo con una torta di frutta, e lasciate che le bollicine amichevoli completino la vostra composta con una complessità sorprendente. - Torte alla crema: Prendete un Brachetto d'Acqui, un rosso frizzante dolce dalla stessa regione, il Piemonte, noto per abbinarsi splendidamente al cioccolato, e sorseggiatelo con un triangolo di cocco cremoso, banana o cioccolato setoso. - Torta di zucca: Trovate un Lambrusco dolce e concedetevelo! Si abbinerà benissimo anche con le patate dolci candite. Ricordate che gli abbinamenti da dessert funzionano meglio quando il vino è un po' più dolce del cibo, e conservate il Lambrusco secco per le vostre patate dolci salate con burro nocciola e salvia. ### Pan di Zenzero contro Marsala Dolce Se riuscite a trovare un marsala dolce con un prezzo superiore a quello da cucina, penso che questo vino fortificato dalla Sicilia sarebbe spettacolare con le spezie del pan di zenzero. In caso contrario, andrebbero benissimo anche un Vin Santo dalla Toscana o un Recioto dalla già citata regione della Valpolicella! Se volete saperne di più sui principi di base dell'abbinamento cibo-vino, ascoltate la mia intervista con l'esperta di abbinamenti Joyce Lin! ¡Bienvenidos a la última guía de maridajes de vino italiano de Modo di Bere! *Haz clic aquí para la versión en audio y escuchar la pronunciación de todos estos vinos.* Imagina que eres un plato festivo. Tarta de calabaza. Puré de papas. Un gran asado. El vino en la copa debería acercarse a tus generosos bocados como un compañero de sparring que literalmente te mantiene alerta, como una pareja de baile con "músculo," que empuja contra tus manos solo un poco para que haya suficiente resistencia y puedas sentir lo que comunicas al responder ese empuje. Nos dicen que el maridaje de comida y vino se trata de armonía, pero eso no significa que uno de los jugadores deba ser sumiso. Un buen interlocutor no te insulta, pero eso no significa que esté de acuerdo con todo lo que dices. Un gran maridaje incluye un elemento de sorpresa. Las fiestas estadounidenses de fin de año giran en torno a la grasa: salsa, cazuela, queso que se estira entre el cubierto y el mac and cheese. Tradiciones culinarias del pasado, prácticamente extintas, aterrizan en la mesa festiva y relucen con solemnidad. Estos momentos piden a gritos vinos altos en acidez, tanino y sabor, para limpiar el paladar y prepararlo para el siguiente bocado cargado, herbáceo y especiado. Entra Italia. Los vinos italianos tienen columna vertebral, igual que el país mismo, con su espina dorsal montañosa. Las variedades de uva tradicionales cultivadas en laderas empinadas y colinas onduladas se convierten en vinos de gran personalidad, perfectos para hacer frente a sabores audaces y texturas ricas. Los tintos son altos en tanino, en acidez. Los blancos son expresivos, las burbujas exuberantes. Y los rosados tradicionales, llamados propiamente rosati en Italia, pueden ser tan oscuros de color que casi parecen "tintos fríos." Los amo. Los amo a todos. Y amo compartirlos con ustedes. ### Tabla de Quesos vs. Etna Bianco ¿Sabían que los vinos blancos son en realidad más fabulosos que los tintos para maridar con queso? Elegí un vino blanco nacido en el volcán siciliano para su tabla de quesos festiva porque la vibrante mezcla de Catarratto y Carricante, combinada con ese extra que el suelo volcánico suele aportar, es el maridaje de apertura perfecto para una festividad llena de combinaciones intrigantes. ### Tabla de Snacks vs. Blanco Sardo Imagino que su tabla de snacks incluye una "bandeja de crudités", galletas saladas o pan de masa madre, algunos embutidos curados exquisitos y algo de pescado enlatado de moda. Creciendo en el Medio Oeste, teníamos una bandeja de plástico literal con compartimentos en forma de cuña para palitos de zanahoria y apio, cuartos de rábano, pepinillos agrios pequeños y aceitunas negras de lata. El compartimento central, redondo, contenía aderezo ranch. Los sabores vegetales vibrantes, el pescado enlatado aceitoso, el salumi jugoso y especialmente los encurtidos piden un vino sabroso envejecido bajo flor, como un jerez fino o manzanilla del sur de España. ¿Sabían que también hacen un vino así en Italia? Casi no quiero contarles sobre la Vernaccia di Oristano porque es muy poco probable que la encuentren. Por suerte tengo una segunda sugerencia sarda para sus necesidades de maridaje de snacks: el Vermentino. No se envejece bajo flor, pero pidan uno de Gallura, la zona DOCG de este vino. Un buen Vermentino de Cinque Terre o la Toscana también puede ofrecer sabores de lima y fruta tropical con un final salado y sabroso. (Una DOCG es la categoría de calidad más alta de las regiones vinícolas italianas, pero hay muchos vinos excelentes también en las categorías DOC e IGT.) ### Latkes vs. Prosecco de Asolo Nunca subestimen el Prosecco, siempre digo, pero tampoco maridar sus latkes con una botella simple, barata y dulce. Un latke perfectamente crujiente, ya sea devorado directamente de la sartén caliente por un chef hambriento o servido con crema fresca y huevas de pescado elegantes, sería alucinante con un sorbo de Prosecco de Asolo. La Valdobbiadene DOCG en la tierra del Prosecco está recibiendo, con razón, atención por sus Proseccos frescos, florales y de alta gama, nacidos en hermosos viñedos en terrazas, pero los vinos de Asolo DOCG ofrecen una nota mineral como una sorpresa salada. Si no pueden encontrar estos Proseccos específicos en su tienda local, busquen un estilo "Col Fondo": el Prosecco turbio hecho al estilo antiguo antes de que el pet-nat se pusiera de moda. ### Mac and Cheese de Langosta vs. Pinot Blanc de Collio Estoy loca por las variedades autóctonas de Friuli-Venezia Giulia, como bien saben los fans del podcast Modo di Bere, pero las vides "internacionales" (francesas) también tienen una larga historia en la región. Hay una variedad de uva de la que los enólogos friulanos hablan con el mayor respeto, y esa uva es el Pinot Blanc. Mi nota de cata personal para un Pinot Blanc fresco y cremoso es que me recuerda a un día nevado de invierno. La elegancia y mineralidad típicas de la región de Collio combinarán con sus mariscos en elegancia y peso, con suficiente acidez para cortar una mezcla de queso derretido. ### Wellington de Hongos vs. Vino Nobile di Montepulciano Aunque un Barolo o un Brunello serían un maridaje tradicional para un plato principal de hongos, estoy tratando de alejarme de los famosos estilos italianos a los que la gente recurre en las fiestas sin mi ayuda. Permítanme presentarles el Vino Nobile di Montepulciano. Esta mezcla a base de Sangiovese se produce en y alrededor del pueblo toscano de Montepulciano, y no debe confundirse con los vinos hechos de la uva Montepulciano popular en Abruzzo. El Vino Nobile es una hermosa expresión del Sangiovese que, a mi parecer, a menudo presenta notas de hongos y un poco de menta dulce. Sustitúyanlo donde usarían Barolo o Pinot Noir con su próximo plato terroso, ¡y escríbanme para contarme qué les pareció! ### Gran Asado vs. Aglianico La gente necesita beber más Aglianico, y su "gran asado" festivo es la excusa perfecta. El Aglianico es la gran uva tinta del sur de Italia, codeándose con el Nebbiolo en el norte y el Sangiovese en el centro. Es grande, es oscuro, es alto en acidez y tanino. El Aglianico desarrolla sabores hermosos y complejos con la edad, y tiene un carácter más robusto que los Barolo y Brunello que ya conocen. El Aglianico de las DOC regionales más amplias ofrece un gran valor, pero los requisitos de crianza más estrictos hacen que las botellas de las tres DOCG para el Aglianico sean serias y dignas de las fiestas: Taburno y Taurasi de Campania, y Vulture de Basilicata. ¡Podrían hacer de probarlos todos su personalidad entera! ### Día de Acción de Gracias vs. Valpolicella Superiore He estado guardando el maridaje perfecto para el pavo, el puré de papas y la salsa, el relleno y la salsa de arándanos. Lo he tenido guardado desde mucho antes de tener una revista donde compartirlo, ¡y ahora el momento finalmente ha llegado! Un redoble de tambores, por favor, para el Valpolicella Superiore. Si pasan tiempo con ítalo-estadounidenses en Navidad, apuesto a que han oído hablar del Amarone, un vino enorme con sabores y alcohol potenciados por una segunda fermentación con uvas pasificadas. Pero el Amarone abrumaría a las aves. El Amarone ahogaría la delicada salvia de su relleno, el arándano de su salsa. Los vinos no refermentados de la región de Valpolicella se hacen con la misma mezcla de uvas Corvina, Rondinella y Molinara. Son tintos frescos, de cuerpo medio, con notas típicas de cereza y un toque de pimienta que harán eco a la especia de su salsa. Un Valpolicella Classico brillante y jugoso funcionará, pero la versión Superiore, con un poco más de sabor y peso, da justo en el punto para equilibrar un bocado de pavo asado jugoso con piel crujiente. ### Coles de Bruselas vs. Pecorino Aunque les deseo una col deliciosa y no amarga para sus fiestas, eso no quiere decir que este no sea un maridaje complicado. Para combinar con una verdura verde de gran personalidad, ofrezco el Pecorino. Esta es una uva popular en las regiones centrales italianas de Marche y Abruzzo que recomiendo a los amantes del Chenin Blanc. Tiene una textura fascinante y una nota de caramelo agridulce de melón verde que combinará bien con sus guarniciones festivas de verduras. ### Cerasuolo d'Abruzzo vs. Hoppin' John Otra aclaración: estoy sugiriendo el peculiar rosato italiano de Abruzzo, basado en la uva Montepulciano, para maridar con los frijoles de carita de la suerte cocidos a fuego lento y el cerdo. Honestamente, si compran por accidente un Cerasuolo di Vittoria, un vino tinto de la única DOCG de Sicilia, hecho con Nero d'Avola y Frappato, ese maridaje también sería excelente. Pero los invito a buscar un Cerasuolo d'Abruzzo, u otro rosato italiano más oscuro que el rosado de Provenza, para que se unan a mi obsesión por el rosado italiano, ruidoso y lleno de sabor. ### Tres Tipos de Pay vs. Tres Vinos Espumosos Ligeramente Dulces - Pays de fruta: Moscato d'Asti. Intenten gastar al menos 20 dólares, tómenlo con pay de fruta, y dejen que las burbujas amigables complementen su compota con una complejidad sorprendente. - Pays de crema: Consigan un Brachetto d'Acqui, un tinto espumoso dulce de la misma región, Piamonte, conocido por maridar maravillosamente con el chocolate, y tómenlo con un triángulo de coco cremoso, plátano o chocolate sedoso. - Pay de calabaza: ¡Encuentren un Lambrusco dulce y disfruten! Esto también combinará muy bien con camotes confitados. Recuerden que los maridajes de postre funcionan mejor cuando el vino es un poco más dulce que la comida, y guarden el Lambrusco seco para sus camotes salados con mantequilla avellanada y salvia. ### Pan de Jengibre vs. Marsala Dulce Si pueden encontrar un marsala dulce con un precio superior al de cocina, creo que este vino fortificado de Sicilia sería espectacular con las especias del pan de jengibre. Si no, ¡un Vin Santo de la Toscana, o un Recioto de la mencionada región de Valpolicella, también serían muy agradables! Si quieren aprender más sobre los principios básicos del maridaje de comida y vino, ¡escuchen mi entrevista con la experta en maridajes Joyce Lin! 欢迎阅读 Modo di Bere 最新的意大利葡萄酒搭配指南！ *点击这里收听音频版本，了解这些葡萄酒名称的正确发音。* 想象你就是一道节日菜肴。南瓜派。土豆泥。丰盛的烤肉。杯中的葡萄酒应该像一位陪练伙伴，紧紧跟随你丰盛的每一口，就像一位有"力量"的舞伴，轻轻顶住你的双手，让你感受到回推时那恰到好处的阻力。 人们常说食物与葡萄酒的搭配讲究和谐，但这并不意味着其中一方要一味退让。一个好的对话者不会侮辱你，但这不代表他会赞同你说的每一句话。绝妙的搭配总带着一丝意外的惊喜。 美国年末的节日总离不开油脂：肉汁、砂锅菜、在餐具和芝士通心粉之间拉出长丝的芝士。那些几近失传的传统菜肴，登上节日餐桌，散发着庄重的光辉。这样的时刻呼唤着高酸度、高单宁、风味浓郁的葡萄酒，来清洁味蕾，为下一口浓郁、草本、辛香的美味做好准备。 意大利，登场。 意大利的葡萄酒有着"脊梁"，正如这个国家本身那连绵的山脉。种植在陡峭山坡和起伏丘陵上的传统葡萄品种，酿造出个性鲜明的葡萄酒，完美地对抗浓郁的风味与丰厚的口感。红葡萄酒单宁高、酸度高。白葡萄酒表现力十足，气泡活泼奔放。而传统的桃红葡萄酒——在意大利被恰如其分地称为 rosato——颜色有时深到几乎像是"冰镇的红葡萄酒"。 我爱它们。我爱它们所有的一切。我也爱与你们分享。 ### 芝士拼盘 对决 Etna Bianco 你知道吗，其实白葡萄酒比红葡萄酒更适合搭配芝士。我为你的节日芝士拼盘挑选了一款诞生于西西里火山的白葡萄酒，因为 Catarratto 和 Carricante 这两种葡萄明快的混酿，加上火山土壤赋予的那股独特劲道，正是开启一场充满奇妙搭配的节日盛宴的完美前奏。 ### 小吃拼盘 对决 撒丁岛白葡萄酒 我猜你的小吃拼盘里少不了一份"什锦生蔬菜盘"、咸饼干或酸面包、几片精致的腌肉，还有一些时髦的罐装鱼。我在美国中西部长大，家里有一个真正的塑料托盘，上面有楔形的格子，分别放着胡萝卜条和芹菜条、切块的萝卜、迷你酸黄瓜和罐装黑橄榄。中间那个圆形格子里装的是牧场沙拉酱。明快的蔬菜风味、油润的罐装鱼、鲜美的意式腌肉，尤其是腌菜，都需要一款经过 flor（酒花膜）陈酿的咸鲜型葡萄酒来搭配，比如来自西班牙南部的 fino 或 manzanilla 雪莉酒。你知道吗，意大利也有这样一款葡萄酒。 我几乎不想告诉你 Vernaccia di Oristano 这款酒，因为你多半找不到它。幸运的是，我还有第二个来自撒丁岛的小吃搭配建议：Vermentino。它不经 flor 陈酿，但可以试试来自 Gallura 的版本，这是这款酒的 DOCG 产区。来自 Cinque Terre 或托斯卡纳（Toscana）的优质 Vermentino，也能带来青柠与热带水果的风味，收尾咸鲜爽口。（DOCG 是意大利葡萄酒产区中最高的质量等级，不过 DOC 和 IGT 级别中也不乏优秀的美酒。） ### 土豆饼 对决 Asolo Prosecco 我总说，千万别小看 Prosecco，但也别拿一瓶简单、廉价、偏甜的酒来配你的土豆饼。一块恰到好处、外脆里嫩的土豆饼——无论是饥肠辘辘的厨师直接从热锅里捞起大快朵颐，还是配上酸奶油和精致鱼子摆盘上桌——搭配一口 Asolo Prosecco 都会让人惊艳。Prosecco 产区中的 Valdobbiadene DOCG，凭借其诞生于美丽梯田葡萄园中、清新花香四溢的高端 Prosecco，正当之无愧地受到关注；而 Asolo DOCG 的酒款则带来一丝矿物感，像是一份咸鲜的小惊喜。如果在当地酒铺找不到这些特定产区的 Prosecco，可以找找 "Col Fondo" 风格——那是在 pet-nat（自然起泡酒）流行之前，以古法酿造的浑浊型 Prosecco。 ### 龙虾芝士通心粉 对决 Collio Pinot Blanc 我对 Friuli-Venezia Giulia 的本土葡萄品种情有独钟，这一点 Modo di Bere 播客的听众都很清楚，不过"国际"（法国）品种在这个产区也有悠久的历史。有一个葡萄品种，弗留利的酿酒师们总是带着最深的敬意谈起它，那就是 Pinot Blanc。对于一款清爽绵密的 Pinot Blanc，我个人的品鉴笔记是：它让我想起飘雪的冬日。Collio 产区特有的优雅与矿物感，会在精致与厚重感上与你的海鲜相得益彰，同时拥有足够的酸度，能够切开融化芝士交织出的浓郁口感。 ### 蘑菇威灵顿 对决 Vino Nobile di Montepulciano 虽然 Barolo 或 Brunello 是搭配蘑菇主菜的传统之选，但我想带你远离那些人们在节日里不假思索就会伸手去拿的、著名的意大利风格。请允许我向你介绍 Vino Nobile di Montepulciano。这款以 Sangiovese 为基础的混酿，产自托斯卡纳小镇 Montepulciano 及其周边地区，切勿与阿布鲁佐（Abruzzo）流行的 Montepulciano 葡萄品种所酿的酒混为一谈。Vino Nobile 是 Sangiovese 的绝美演绎，在我的味觉中，它常常带有蘑菇与一丝甜薄荷的气息。下次遇到需要 Barolo 或黑皮诺搭配的泥土气息浓郁的菜肴时，不妨试试用它替代，也请写信告诉我你的感受！ ### 丰盛烤肉 对决 Aglianico 人们应该多喝一点 Aglianico，而你节日餐桌上那道"丰盛的烤肉"正是绝佳的借口。Aglianico 是意大利南部伟大的红葡萄品种，与北部的 Nebbiolo、中部的 Sangiovese 并肩而立。它体格庞大、色泽深沉，酸度与单宁都很高。随着陈年，Aglianico 会发展出华丽复杂的风味，性格也比你已经熟悉的 Barolo 和 Brunello 更加粗犷有力。来自较大区域级 DOC 的 Aglianico 性价比很高，而更严格的陈年要求，则让 Aglianico 三大 DOCG 产区——坎帕尼亚（Campania）的 Taburno 和 Taurasi，以及巴斯利卡塔（Basilicata）的 Vulture——出产的酒款足够厚重、值得摆上节日餐桌。把它们统统尝一遍，说不定会成为你的人生标签！ ### 感恩节 对决 Valpolicella Superiore 对于火鸡、土豆泥配肉汁、填料和蔓越莓酱，我心中早已藏着一个完美的搭配答案。这个念头，早在我还没有一本杂志可以与大家分享它之前，就已经在我心里珍藏许久了，而这一刻终于到来！请让我为大家隆重介绍——Valpolicella Superiore。 如果你在圣诞节和意大利裔美国人相处过，我猜你一定听说过 Amarone，这是一款通过二次发酵、用风干葡萄酿造，风味与酒精度都被大大提升的浓郁烈酒。但 Amarone 会盖过家禽的风头。它会淹没你填料中那一丝细腻的鼠尾草香，还有酱汁里的蔓越莓味。产自 Valpolicella 产区、未经二次发酵的葡萄酒，使用的是同样的 Corvina、Rondinella 和 Molinara 混酿配方。这些酒清新、酒体中等，带有典型的樱桃风味和一丝胡椒气息，正好呼应肉汁中的香料味。明快多汁的 Valpolicella Classico 已经很不错了，但 Superiore 版本多了一点风味与厚度，恰好能与外皮酥脆、肉质多汁的烤火鸡达到完美的平衡。 ### 抱子甘蓝 对决 Pecorino 虽然我衷心祝愿你的节日餐桌上能有一份美味不苦涩的抱子甘蓝，但这并不代表这道搭配简单。要搭配一款个性鲜明的绿色蔬菜，我推荐 Pecorino。这是意大利中部马尔凯（Marche）和阿布鲁佐（Abruzzo）地区流行的一个葡萄品种，我常把它推荐给喜爱白诗南（Chenin Blanc）的人。它有着迷人的质感，还带着一丝微酸的青瓜糖果般的气息，会与你节日餐桌上的蔬菜配菜相得益彰。 ### Cerasuolo d'Abruzzo 对决 黑眼豆炖饭（Hoppin' John） 再做一个区分说明：我推荐的是产自阿布鲁佐、以 Montepulciano 葡萄酿造、个性十足的意大利桃红酒（rosato），用来搭配寓意好运、慢炖的黑眼豆与猪肉。老实说，如果你不小心买到的是 Cerasuolo di Vittoria——这是产自西西里唯一 DOCG 产区、由 Nero d'Avola 和 Frappato 酿造的红葡萄酒——那这个搭配同样很棒。不过我还是邀请你去寻找一瓶 Cerasuolo d'Abruzzo，或是其他一款颜色比普罗旺斯粉红酒更深的意大利桃红酒，与我一同沉醉在这种张扬、风味十足的意大利桃红酒之中。 ### 三种派 对决 三款微甜起泡酒 - 水果派：Moscato d'Asti。不妨花至少 20 美元买一瓶好一点的，配着水果派细细品味，让那些友善的气泡以出人意料的复杂度，为你的果酱增色。 - 奶油派：找一瓶 Brachetto d'Acqui，一款产自皮埃蒙特（Piemonte）同一产区的微甜起泡红酒，以搭配巧克力而闻名，配上一角绵密的椰子派、香蕉奶油派或丝滑巧克力派，一同品尝。 - 南瓜派：找一瓶甜型兰布鲁斯科（Lambrusco），尽情享受吧！它配上蜜汁山药也一样出色。记住，甜点搭配的原则是酒要比食物更甜一点，而那款干型兰布鲁斯科，就留给你搭配那道用榛子黄油和鼠尾草调味的咸味红薯吧。 ### 姜饼 对决 甜型玛萨拉 如果你能找到一瓶价格高于料理用级别的甜型玛萨拉（Marsala），我相信这款来自西西里的加强型葡萄酒，配上姜饼的辛香味，一定会令人惊艳。如果找不到，来自托斯卡纳的 Vin Santo，或是前面提到的 Valpolicella 产区出产的 Recioto，也同样是很好的选择！ 如果你想了解更多关于食物与葡萄酒搭配的基本原则，欢迎收听我与搭配专家 Joyce Lin 的访谈！ Welcome to the latest Italian wine pairing guide from Modo di Bere! Click here for the [audio version](https://mododiberemagazine.mymagic.page/content/files/2026/08/2025.html?ref=mododibere.com) to hear the pronunciation of all these wines. --- Imagine you’re a holiday dish. Pumpkin pie. Mashed potatoes. Roast beast. The wine in the glass should approach your rich forkfuls like a sparring partner who literally keeps you on your toes, like a dancing partner with “muscle,” pushing against your hands just a little bit so there’s enough resistance to feel what you communicate by pushing back. We’re told that food and wine pairing is about harmony, but that doesn’t mean one player is a pushover. A good conversation partner doesn’t insult you, but that doesn’t mean they agree with everything you say. A great pairing includes an element of surprise. Late-year American holidays are all about fat: gravy, casserole, cheese stretching between the utensil and the mac and cheese. Bygone traditional foodways, virtually extinct, land on the holiday table and gleam with gravitas. These moments scream for wines high in acid, tannin, and flavor, to clean your mouth and prepare it for the next loaded, herby, spicy bite. Enter Italy. Italian wines have backbone, just like the country itself, with its mountainous spine. Traditional grape varieties grown on steep slopes and rolling hills become high-personality wines, perfect for standing up to bold flavors and rich textures. The reds are high in tannin, in acid. The whites are expressive, the bubbles exuberant. And the traditional rosés, properly called rosatos in Italy, can be so dark in color that they’re nearly “chilled reds.” I love them. I love them all. And I love sharing them with you. --- **Cheese Board vs. Etna Bianco** Did you know that white wines are actually more fabulous than red wines for pairing with cheese? I’ve chosen a white wine born on the Sicilian volcano for your holiday cheese board because the bright blend of Catarratto and Carricante, combined with that extra umph that volcanic soil tends to impart, is the perfect opening pairing for a holiday full of intriguing combinations. **Snack Board vs. Sardinian White** I imagine that your snack board includes a “relish tray” (known on the east coast as crudites), crackers or sourdough bread, some lovely cured meats and some trendy tinned fish. Growing up in the Midwest, we had a literal plastic tray with wedge-shaped compartments for carrot and celery sticks, radish quarters, baby sour pickles and black olives from a can. The central, round compartment contained ranch dressing. Bright veggie flavors, oily tinned fish, luscious salumi and especially pickles call for a savory wine aged under flor, like fino or manzanilla sherry from Southern Spain. Did you know they make a wine like that in Italy? I almost don’t want to tell you about **Vernaccia di Oristano** because you’re so unlikely to find it. Luckily I have a second Sardinian suggestion for your snack pairing needs: **Vermentino**. It’s not aged under flor, but ask for one from Gallura, the DOCG zone for this wine. A good Vermentino from Cinque Terre or Tuscany can also deliver lime and tropical fruit flavors with a salty, savory finish. (A DOCG is the top quality category of Italian wine regions, but there are many excellent wines to be found in the DOC and IGT categories as well.) **Latkes vs Asolo Prosecco** Don’t sleep on Prosecco, I always say, but also don’t pair your latkes with a bottle that’s simple, cheap and sweet. A crisp-perfect latke, whether gobbled straight from the hot pan by a hungry chef or plated with creme fraiche and fancy fish eggs, would be mind-blowing with a sip of **Asolo Prosecco**. The Valdobbiadene DOCG in Proseccoland is rightfully getting some attention for its high-end, fresh and floral Proseccos born in beautiful terraced vineyards, but the wines from Asolo DOCG offer a mineral note like a salty surprise. If you can’t find these specific Proseccos at your local shop, look for a “**Col Fondo**” style—the cloudy Prosecco made in an ancient style before pet-nat was hip. **Lobster Mac vs Collio Pinot Blanc** I’m crazy about the indigenous varieties of Friuli-Venezia Giulia, as fans of the [**Modo di Bere podcast**](https://mododiberemagazine.mymagic.page/content/files/2026/08/paul-balke-utm%5Fsource-mododiberemagazine-beehiiv-com-utm%5Fmedium-referral-utm%5Fcampaign-quick-a-non-boring-holiday-wine-pairing-guide.html?ref=mododibere.com) well know, but the “international” (French) vines also have a long history in the region. There is a grape variety that Friulian winemakers speak about with deepest respect, and that grape is **Pinot Blanc**. My personal tasting note for a cool, creamy Pinot Blanc is that it reminds me of a snowy winter day. The elegance and minerality typical to the **Collio** region will match your seafood in fanciness and weight, with sufficient acidity to cut through a melange of melty cheese. **Mushroom Wellington vs Vino Nobile di Montepulciano** While a Barolo or Brunello would be a traditional match for a mushroom main, I’m trying to steer away from the famous Italian styles that people reach for at the holidays without my help. May I please introduce you to **Vino Nobile di Montepulciano.** This Sangiovese-based blend is produced in and around the Tuscan town of Montepulciano, and should not be confused with wines made from theMontepulciano *grape* popular in Abruzzo. Vino Nobile is a gorgeous expression of Sangiovese that, to my senses, often presents notes of mushrooms and a little sweet mint. Swap it out where you’d use Barolo or Pinot Noir with your next earthy dish, and please write me to let me know what you think! **Roast Beast vs Aglianico** People need to drink more **Aglianico**, and your holiday “roast beast” is the perfect excuse. Aglianico is the great red grape of southern Italy, holding court with Nebbiolo in the north and Sangiovese in the center. It’s big, it’s dark, it’s high in acid and tannin. Aglianico develops gorgeous, complex flavors with age, and it’s got a burlier character than the Barolos and Brunellos you already know. Aglianico from the larger, regional DOCs offers great value, but stricter aging requirements make for serious, holiday-worthy bottles in the three DOCGs for Aglianico: Taburno and Taurasi from Campania and Vulture from Basilicata. You could make trying them all your whole personality! **Thanksgiving vs Valpolicella Superiore** I’ve been sitting on the perfect wine pairing for turkey, mashed potatoes and gravy, stuffing and cranberry sauce. I’ve had it under my hat since long before I had a magazine to share it in, and now the moment has finally arrived! A drumroll, please, for **Valpolicella Superiore.** If you spend time with Italian-Americans at Christmastime, I bet you’ve heard of Amarone, a huge wine with flavors and alcohol boosted by a second fermentation with dried grapes. But Amarone would overwhelm poultry. Amarone would drown out the delicate sage in your stuffing, the cranberry in your sauce. The un-refermented wines from the Valpolicella region are made from the same blend of Corvina, Rondinella and Molinara grapes. These are fresh, medium bodied reds with typical notes of cherry and a touch of pepper that will echo your gravy’s spice. A bright and juicy Valpolicella Classico will do, but the Superiore version, with a little extra flavor and weight, hits the sweet spot for balancing a bite of juicy roasted turkey with crispy skin. **Brussels Sprouts vs Pecorino** While I wish you a delicious and non-bitter sprout for your holiday, that’s not to say that this isn’t a tricky pair. To match a green vegetable with a big personality, I offer **Pecorino**. This is a grape popular in the central Italian regions of Marche and Abruzzo that I recommend to lovers of Chenin Blanc. It’s got a fascinating texture and a note of sourish green melon candy that will play nicely with your holiday vegetable sides. **Cerasuolo d’Abruzzo vs Hoppin’ John** Another disambiguation: I’m suggesting the characterful Italian **rosato** (rosé) from Abruzzo, based on the **Montepulciano** grape, to pair with good luck, slow-simmered black-eyed peas and pork. Honestly, if you accidentally buy a **Cerasuolo di Vittoria**, a red wine from Sicily’s only DOCG, made with Nero d’Avola and Frappato, that pairing would also be great. But I invite you to search for a **Cerasuolo d’Abruzzo**, or another Italian rosato that’s darker than Provence-pink, so that you can join my crush on loud, flavorful Italian blush. **Three Types of Pie vs Three Lightly Sweet, Bubbly Wines** - Fruit pies: **Moscato d’Asti**. Try to spend at least 20 bucks, sip on this with fruit pie, and let the friendly bubbles comp your compote with surprising complexity. - Cream Pies: Pick up **Brachetto d’Acqui,** a sweet bubbly red from the same region, Piemonte, that’s known for pairing beautifully with chocolate, and sip it with a triangle of custardy coconut, banana creme or chocolate silk. - Pumpkin pie: Find a **Sweet Lambrusco** and indulge! This will also pair great with candied yams. Remember that dessert pairings are best when the wine is a little sweeter than the food, and save the dry Lambrusco for your savory sweet potatoes with brown butter and sage. **Gingerbread vs Sweet Marsala** If you can find a **sweet marsala** that’s priced above sauce-grade, I think this fortified wine from Sicily would be spectacular with gingerbread spice. If not, a **Vin Santo** from Tuscany, or a **Recioto** from the aforementioned Valpolicella region, would also be very nice! --- If you’d like to learn more about the basic principles of food and wine pairing, [listen to my interview](https://mododiberemagazine.mymagic.page/content/files/2026/08/food-and-wine-pairing-with-joyce-lin.html?ref=mododibere.com) with pairing expert Joyce Lin! ### ▷S4E10 Felipe Muñoz of Yola Mezcal URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e10-felipe-munoz-yola-mezcal/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T03:40:56.000Z NYC bartender and brand ambassador Felipe Muñoz illuminates mezcal’s sense of place. Unlike crops that mature in a single growing season, agave plants grow for years or decades before being harvested for mezcal. Felipe shares what it’s like to work as a brand ambassador for the community-centered, woman-forward mezcal brand Yola, and teaches us some juicy drinking sayings from his native Colombia. Rose Thomas and Felipe do an in-depth tasting of Yola mezcal. They sip on a mezcal cocktail and share advice for beginning bartenders and anyone learning to make cocktails at home. Find a bottle of Yola Mezcal near you: [yolamezcal.com/](https://www.yolamezcal.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Follow Felipe on Instagram: [instagram.com/anfemu](https://www.instagram.com/anfemu/?ref=mododibere.com) Follow Yola on Instagram: [instagram.com/yolamezcal](https://www.instagram.com/yolamezcal?ref=mododibere.com) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DRc8juUD1X8/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DRc8juUD1X8/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DR8bmwjDTIw/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DR8bmwjDTIw/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DR4izDhjRTz/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DR4izDhjRTz/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) **Edited autotranscript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript FM: I mean agave are very unique plants. You have wine made from grapes who grow every year or like you have orchards that produce apples to make calvados or apple brandies or eau de vie that are from fruits. The trees stay there and they will give you fruits every year. Or then you have grain that grows really fast from like corn, barley, you know, malt. But then you have agave that take, you know, some where the youngest agave will probably be like four years and you can have certain species of agave that can take up to 25, 30 years. And you wait all that time and then you literally cut it. And so you are, you know, you're taking that and with that you're taking those 30 years or 10 years or 9 years that the plant took to grow. RT: Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. Today I have the pleasure to interview Felipe Munoz, brand ambassador for the Yola mezcal company. Felipe, I have so many questions for you about cocktails and mezcal, but I'd like to start off the show asking my guests about a local drink and a local saying. I know you're from Colombia originally. Do you have a saying from home that you want to share with my listeners or any Colombian drinks you want to mention? FM: I mean obviously I feel like the most well-known Colombian drink is aguardiente which is an anise flavored sugar cane distill. It's honestly not my favorite thing because I think I had too much of it when I was young. But yeah, I feel like everybody who has been to Colombia has been offer a guard at some point. Nowadays there is some other especially where I come from is close to the Pacific. So we had like viche and some other ancestral drinks that were introduced to Colombia or like are being made by Afrocolombian communities and I mean since 2020 now they have been regulated by the government. So we're actually seeing them in a legal form and like we're not you know the government not going after the people that actually made these drinks and so yeah viche or like yeah viche is very similar to, it's a sugar cane distill also but it's produced, you know, the sugar cane is it's a specific type of sugar cane called caña viche which usually comes from close like where the river connects with the ocean and so the fields for this specific sugar cane have to be like they can only grow there. And there's also like certain rules as to like how it is made, but those are like kind of new. RT: What does it taste like? FM: I mean, it's made out of sugarcane juice, so you definitely get like that grassy yeah, you get the very strong sugar cane in a way. Tastes like a rhum agricole. I would say it might be a little softer, but then again, it's like it's something that I grew up drinking or not grew up drinking, but something that we specifically like near Cali or like where I come from in Colombia. is something that is very common for us but nowadays is something that like starting to grow throughout the country. People are kind of starting to pay some interest into it. Yeah. But before it was seen it was seen as something Yeah. It was it wasn't it wasn't even legal to make in the first place. I guess in in Colombia the government kind of has the monopoly of the distillation of alcohol and so most of the industry was is owned by the government. And so basically they kind of dictate like what the rum brands are or like what people are drinking because pretty much every state in Colombia has like their own distillery and and so you know back when I lived there it was just like for small brands it was hard to compete with like the whole government industry in a way. RT: So the viche was almost almost like a moonshine in a sense. FM: Correct. Yeah. RT: That sounds like an amazing local drink story. Let's go to Colombia and I mean find out all about viche. FM: Yeah. as I I mean as I mentioned like viches mostly produced in the Pacific part of Colombia so we're like you know we have both sides Caribbean and Pacific and so it is produced you know in the Valle de Cauca or like Nariño, Cauca, which is in the south part of the country and like obviously the Cauca which has a very high like Afrocolombian population and yeah the way it is produced is like you know they have like this trapiches, basically they, they squeeze the sugar cane to get the juice out but like there is also the way of doing it it needs to be like in between wood and so you only use wood to like extract it. It's something that is very new and again it's still only in like 2020 the government kind of allow it and set up regulation for it and so now you're starting to see like small brands come out with like better packaging and like trying to create like a a demand for it. RT: I didn't know any of that. Thank you so much. Is that something you can find in New York City or is it still something that's really just found in Colombia? FM: It's, you will probably not see it around here. Yeah. And then within the viche category like there is different styles and so there is some that are like infused with certain plants and and you could almost think about it like an amari in a way you know they kind of use it as medicine for these communities. It is medicine depending on what plant they infuse into the viche. They will give it a different name and usually it's like not just one plant. It's like a combination of different plants. It has it has a whole different flavor as well, you know, but then the base of it will still be the sugar cane distill. RT: Oh, I'm so intrigued. Thank you so much. One night I was at an Italian wine bar, Have and Meyer in Williamsburg. So, I'm at this I'm at this Italian wine bar and some people who worked there were Italian, but others were from Colombia or from Venezuela. We all started trading local phrases from our countries about how to say, "I have a hangover." I can't quite remember which one was from Colombia and which was from Venezuela, but I remember learning "Tengo guayaba \[sic\]" and "Tengo ratón". FM: Guayabo. RT: Guaybo. FM: Yeah. RT: What is a guayabo? FM: Guaybo is basically like a tree that produces guayabas, but it just means to be hung over. What the origin of the expression is. I I wouldn't really know, you know, but it's just like the way we we always say it like, "Estoy enguayabado" is like "I'm hangover." RT: "Estoy guay—" FM: "Enguayabodo." RT: "Estoy enguayabado." FM: Yeah. And so like very Colombian way of saying it, you know, like I think every country in Latin America kind of has in Spanish their own way of saying like we are hangover. I mean, but we also have like different expressions where you say like if you're partying and it's like you say, "Estoy prendido," and it's like, "prendido" is like fired up like getting as we would say here like getting lit. But means that you are maybe you're like two three four drinks in and so you are not really drunk yet like you're just like lightly like you're getting a little buzz when so you say, "Estoy prendido." I think that's also very Colombian. RT: What's the literal meaning of prenido and guayaba? Is that a mango? FM: Guayaba is like a guava. RT: A guava. Guayaba. FM: Guayaba. Yeah. RT: Got it. FM: And then "prendido" will be like lit, like fired up. I don't know like prendido, it doesn't mean that you're drunk. It just means that you only had a couple drinks. And then there's ways of using like you will always say like "Oh, que prenda, que tengo," and it's like you know yeah you're like two three drinks in but you still have a lot to go through through the night you know the night is just getting started in a way. RT: That's awesome. Are there any other Colombian sayings that you want to share with us about alcohol or or not? FM: I think in Spanish we have just like so many like idioms. I mean I just want to like kind of keep going in topic like you know when we are like taking a shot we always say like if you are to drink like the whole drink you say like "Fondo blanco." RT: Fondo blanco? FM: "Fondo blanco," yeah. Which means like white background I don't even know why I guess that would be like the literal translation but it would make any sense but in Spanish just for in Colombia at least is an expression of like oh, fondo blanco, and so that means you know they pour you three ounces of whatever they pour you you are to drink it all or if you're drinking a beer then you're just going to chug it all and that means that you're not going to stop until you finish it. And so it's something that you could do with your friends like, Fondo blanco! And then it's like all right we're drinking it all and it's got to be quick and you got to be as quick as as you can. You know. RT: On the other side when I met you we met at a tasting of this mezcaL that we're going to talk a lot more about later. And you taught me the word in Spanish for to take a sip to sip on your drink. FM: On, at least on mezcal, uh you know and when when you're tasting you we say like we want to give it "besitos," and so besitos is like little kisses just because you know a lot of mezcal is at a very high proof and so you don't want to take in a big gulp right away will be a little too much so you kind of want to wet your lips first as if you were kissing somebody and that is kind of like how you getting through into it and then obviously as the night goes then you can take bigger sips, I guess. RT: So it's like a spectrum from besitos to fondo blanco. FM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. From besitos to fondo blanco. Yeah. RT: That's wonderful. I'm ready to go party in Colombia and drink some viche. We have all the lingo. That's amazing. Thank you. Felipe, when I when I met you at a tasting for the Yola mezcal, Felipe, you were really made the story of mezcal come to life for me. The way you describe the biodiversity of the types of agave and how you talk about all the different locations where mezcal is made. My understanding about mezcal is that it's an agave spirit with you could to which you could apply more the wine term of terroir. Something that can only taste the way it tastes because it's grown where it's grown with all the different factors that have to do with that locality. So for listeners who might be more familiar with tequila, if you don't mind, could you just start from the beginning for us with the difference between mezcal and tequila? FM: I think what is important to understand itself in like tequila, mezcal production is the agave plant and so these are plants that take many many years to grow mature and they are grow a very slow pace. I kind of try to simplify the differences but basically they are both we have been making or people in Mexico have been making me mezcal for 400 years or maybe more. You know it originated from pulque, and then the Spanish brought Filipino people who brought in the stills and then they distilled that pulque and then that is how mezcal came to be. You could say tequila is a more industrialized mezcal which is only producing the state of Jalisco only in some vicinities of it and then it must be from at least 51% Blue Weber agave and Blue Weber agave only and so then you have to understand that there's many other species of agave out there that are endemic to Central and South America most of them obviously being in central America. And so mezcal is made out of most of the other species that are not Blue Weber. It's also nowadays there's like regulation over what is considered mezcal and like these norms came to be obviously to you know reassure that the the quality of the product or you know certain certain processes are being followed through. And so nowadays we have 10 states in Mexico that are allowed to name an agave distill mezcal as long as they follow certain rules. And obviously these 10 states were chosen because they have certain cultural and historical ties to the agave distillation. I mean agaves are very unique plants. You have wine made from grapes who grow every year, or like you have orchards that produce apples to make calvados or apple brandies or eau de vies that are from fruits. The trees stay there and they will give you fruits every year. Or then you have grain that grows really fast from like corn, barley, you know, malt. But then you have agave that take, you know, somewhere the youngest agave will probably be like four years and you can have certain species of agave that can take up to 25, 30 years. And you wait all that time and then you literally cut it. And so you are, you know, you're taking that and with that you're taking those 30 years or 10 years or 9 years that the plant took to grow. You know, the flavors really develop in that sense like where it comes from is obviously very important. Obviously production methods can also affect the flavor of it. But that's why like where where the agave is from is is very important. RT: Can you talk to me a little bit about the production method about the way that you cook the agave and how that that can give different flavors? FM: I think the the biggest thing is for most most you know as we mentioned before tequila is a little more industrialized process. So you know you have some brands using clay ovens some brands using autoclaves which are basically you're cooking by steam. There is only a few brands out there that will use what traditional way was used which is a earthen conical oven which is basically a pit on the earth where you like you cover with rocks you put wood you put agave then you you will cover them and they basically get smoked and that's where a lot of the flavor for for mezcal comes from and that's where the smokiness comes from. Obviously there is like there are exceptions to the rule. There's a couple of states that you know they don't really smoke their agaves. They actually steam them. But I think in you know at least in the south part of Mexico like Oaxaca uh which is probably is the biggest producer of mezcal in the country like usually the way to cook the agave is going to be always a a conical oven but it's going to be a pit. You know that changes the way the agave are cooked. You can cook—in tequila, you can cook agave if you're using an autoclave. You can cook those agave very very fast. If you, you know, if you put more steam and you increase the pressure, you can cook them in hours compared to days. So that creates a whole different in flavor. You know, you're extracting flavors a little slower and so a lot of the real agave flavors are going to stay within within the plant. RT: Gosh, I'm just thinking about scotch whisky and when people are trying to talk about why does this whisky cost so much, then they say, well, you know, it's aged for 12 years. Can you imagine as business decision making something that you can't sell for 12 years? Of course, it costs a lot of money. Now I'm thinking about a mezcal agave plant that grew for 25 years and then before you even start to cook it for days. Can you talk to us about the the aging process? FM: That's why you don't see me mezcal that are like usually rested in barrels because the plants itself have like taken so long to grow. To your point what you're saying I mean to your point there's a lot of like the value in like whiskey and certain spirits are is is in the time that they spend in a barrel and like how those barrels were storage and you know you you'll see brands saying that this is their winter blend because they you know the barrels were picked up at a certain time of the year or like you know in these warehouses like for whiskey for example how hot it is and you have like rums that can change in flavor depending on where they're from based on the temperature that they are in the barrel. But then for mezcal, it's like it's all about the plant. I define mezcal more of a farmer's spirit than anything else. Really, the the hand of the farmer and like the place he comes from is just what's going to dictate the flavor. And to your point, it's like it's a hard business for them. Like you plant something with the hope that seven years down the road, you're going to make something out of it, but you don't have anything tangible now. You don't have a liquid. You don't have anything yet. And so as demand grows, there is some challenges that have come down the road because obviously you have to let some of the agave, like you know, they grow the the flowers in the Middle East which is called the quiote. So you got to make sure that you have you let enough of them grow the quiote. You know there's a demand for certain agave that only grow in the wild and like we haven't figured out how to how to like actually grow them in crops yet. And so you know if everybody is drinking let's say we have the agave Jabali and if everybody let's say is drinking Jabali and then we create too much demand for it we don't let Jabali create the seeds which is the quiote then we're probably not going to have Jabali for the future. So these are all challenges that production of mezcal you know as the the demand grows here in especially here in the United States something people are still trying to figure out. RT: Tell me about Yola mezcal. What sets it apart? What makes it special? FM: So Yola mezcal is produced in a single state palenque which is, "palenque" is the name for, basically, a distillery at least in Oaxaca, which means that we only grow our agave or agave in our land which is a land that Yola herself inherited from her grandfather Luis Jimenez in 2007\. Yola herself just like she is from is a native Oaxacan who moved to Mexico City, grew up there. She went to school in Cambridge. She started philosophy and gender politics, you know, she came back to Mexico and I feel like as many of us who grew up in Latin America and then go somewhere else, we always think of always going back and like seeing like we kind of discovered that, you know, there's a lot of greatness of where we're from. And so after she inherited the land, she kind of started bringing this, she she went to Mexico City, opened a bar with some friends called La Clandestina, which is a mezcaleria, which back then there weren't a lot of them even in Mexico City. And then she met other people. She started like the palenque has been open or at least Yola's grandfather had the palenque in Oaxaca since the 60s. RT: And that's a place where you make mezcal. FM: Yeah, the palenque. That's what it's called. In at least in Oaxaca. In the north part of Mexico you'll have a different name they usually call them vinotecas. And so that's when like you know it can get a little complicated with the terms cuz there's like based on every state you can have like different names for even the same even the same plant or even the same yeah even the same product will be called a different name. RT: We love that we love that here. FM: It's very regional when it comes to those things. And so Yola started bringing like little samples kind of mezcal back in you know, '06 six to LA. She started kind of traveling to LA and bringing some of the mezcal that was being done what was being made out of her grandfather's farm in, palenque in Oaxaca. And then from there she saw the opportunity of like actually starting a brand or they saw the opportunity just because you know there was this is like back in, you know mezcal wasn't that popular back then but people were kind of asking like oh what is this or like you know where can I find it where can I buy it. And the brand was started and then she did a lot of emphasis in making sure that the brand was all uh since you know the other two Gina \[Corell Aglietti\] and Lykke \[Li\] started the brand with Yola \[Jimenez\]. She wanted to make sure that it was an all female \[team\]. I feel for Yola it was very important that to make sure that the brand gave opportunities for females down in Oaxaca and she kind of made sure that females had control over the brand she being a female herself of course. and so 85% of the workforce of Yola mezcal is females we have maestra mescalera who is the daughter of our original maestro mescalero, so mescalera is Guadalupe Bautista. Javier her father still works for us in a way. It's just the labor of love like all mezcals! RT: Well we have a little bit of mezcal here so we can taste it together. If you've been hearing some little icy, clinking noises, I was enjoying the El Diablo cocktail that Felipe made for me before we started the interview. But right now I'm just going to give this mezcal some little kisses! FM: Our mezcal is blend of Espadín and Madrecuixe. Those are the names of the agave themselves. Espadín is very common in Oaxaca, and they make a lot of the a lot of the mezcals you see here in the United States obviously coming from Oaxaca are made out of Espadîn. Madrecuixe are agave that are wild. They take up to 15 years to grow mature. They both have like different characteristics in flavor. Espadín tend to be maybe a little more vegetal while Madrecuixe be a little softer more fruit show more fruit characteristic to them like you know pineapple and like peach and I think it translates to the glass. You know the mezcal is this mezcal is like very delicate. I think a part of why I like working for Yola is because me being a bartender, I see a lot of people drinking mezcal cocktails but not really understanding what they like about it and not really sipping on it. It's something that you don't see in whiskey or other categories. Like I feel like people sip on whiskey all the time and they don't actually drink a lot of whiskey cocktails or like whiskey or something very straightforward. And I feel like it was the opposite for mezcal, but I think this is it's a beautiful mess to sip on of his own. And it's a really good introduction into the category as well. RT: I totally agree. I I feel like I can find the fruitiness on the nose almost something like um just a very warm aroma. It's not really like banana, but I'm thinking more like when you make really nice banana bread and you put some butter and like some brown sugar on top. I mean I'm making it sound sweeter. It's not a sweet drink, but do you know what I mean about the aroma? Are there other aromas that you find or that you— FM: You know as it is a natural product, it can always change batch to batch, and going back to the to the plant itself. And so I mean what I typically find in it is again I do find those tropical flavors you're describing and to me like roasted fruit characteristics more than maybe like leather or smoke. I don't find that like maybe you will find in some other mezcals. But I also find it maybe a little like peppercorn sage in a way like this very aromatic at least at the end which I really enjoy here. I think it's just a well balanced mezcal. RT: Yeah, I find the bruised the bruised fruit more on the nose like maybe kind of like a bruised pear when you think about the brown spots on a really nice pear that just tastes great. I get more of the kind of grassy herbal notes when it's in when it's in my mouth and I get that really fresh green bright almost wild flavor and then yeah I feel that kind of peppery note as as it goes on. And I will say that it is really sippable and that's just a huge compliment for something you know that—for spirits, I I didn't put any water or anything is really in well balance as far as the alcohol and just the smoothness of it like I'm just drinking it here in my glass with with nothing at all and it quite a testament to the quality. FM: This comes out of the still at this proof which you know mezcal usually is higher proof than most spirits. So this is 90 proof and you'll find like mezcals out there that are going to be like way higher proof than that like 52— I mean 104, I'm sorry. Yeah the flavors are definitely it's just definitely like a very very unique taste taste profile for the mezcal. RT: I would say that even though it's I think it's very versatile because you know while I'm really enjoying sipping it on its own, it's not something that's like so precious that oh my god you can't mix it. We made this El Diablo cocktail with it for instance and it's not at such a it's at a good price point I think in the market where you could go either way. You could have it as something to sip on for people who like to do that, but if you want to mix it, it's not so precious. You go ahead and mix it, enjoy it, right? FM: I think what is important also like you know the reason why your mezcal maybe the price it is is also like we are making sure that all the workers down in Mexico are really getting compensated for the work and again like this is mostly an all-female team doing all the work. There is certain things that we offer down in our palenque. Like there is a playground for the kids. There's a child care that is offered for the kids while they go to work. They kind of create their own schedule. They—not kind of. They create their own schedule and so they decide like which hours they can work. Those are things that I feel like, you know, for Yola and for me and for everybody that works for the brand are the most important things. Like we just want to make sure that a lot of the revenue that is being created is really transforming the community for the better without having like you know an imperialistic mindset or like you know we are not going to save anybody from anything. We are just making sure that the resources that are being created down there are actually coming back down there and people are really they are working for their community and not to you know create a profit for somebody else somewhere else. RT: Which has definitely happened in Mexico as the interest in agave spirits has exploded. FM: Correct. Yeah. I mean it's something we see in the industry. You know it's kind of hard to control and I feel like at this point it's really hard to control as the demand grows again. Like I feel like for consumers, really getting to know their brands and like what the brand stands for is very important. I mean, that's what I'm here for. RT: For listeners who are considering various careers in the beverage industry or who are just curious about this cool sounding job, Felipe, could you talk to us a little bit about your work as a brand ambassador? FM: I work in the industry or like I work in hospitality for 14 years now and I feel like being a bartender part of how I started and like or how I started seeing bartender as a career was my interest in showing the work of the people who make the spirits. And that's kind of what really intrigued me about it like from Amari to vodka to gin like whiskey there is a lot of effort that go into it. I was one time at the bar and one of my mentors told me like you know I remember I was very tired and I made a comment about something and and then he said to me well you know how tired you are like the same way you're tired like the people who made this are very tired. Back then I didn't have a lot of knowledge. And so he was like and this is why you should know because you are the last chance they have to tell their story. We go to the bar to have fun obviously and like it's not for everybody. Not everybody cares to hear the stories of these people, but for the people that care like you should as a bartender like you should know a little bit about it or like you should be able to educate and like that is something that I you know I concentrated on from early on in my career as a bartender and like it's something I try to do or like when I have the chance to or when people ask me what is the difference between this is I try to be as informative as possible. Now as a brand ambassador is pretty much what I is what I do for a living. I just go tell them how. How and why. It can be it can be a sometimes difficult because you know you go to let's say a liquor store and like they don't care about that. They just want to know how much? And that is okay. You know that's also part of the job. You have to learn how to wear many different faces and masks, and like you know I was talking to somebody the other day and it's like you know the rejection of it to the rejection side of it. Like some people just don't care. They don't want to hear about it like they just want to know how much is the case and how much is it going to cost me, how much is it going to make me and and that is, when the consumer is important because if they you know they have more people demanding good products and brands that they are feel strongly about those liquor store owners will also have to change the way they see the spirits. It goes to a lot of industries now the more the consumers are informed it will be better for everybody I guess. RT: So my own background, I actually started out in cocktails before I got into wine. Was a super fun, creative life. And I wonder what advice you have for our listeners who might just be getting started with making cocktails or wanting to learn more about making cocktails. What's the best way to start learning? What's your best advice? FM: Using good quality products is like the most important thing. If you use a terrible gin, most likely you're going to make a terrible martini. With that being said, like you know, knowing what you like is very important. like what flavors you prefer. That is very important. Trying to use fresh ingredients at home instead of let's say buying the pasteurized lime juice. You can try to like squeeze your own lime juice. Simple things like that at home will just make a war of of difference between a not so good cocktail and a great cocktail. If you have lime juice that is from maybe you squeeze today, but you're going to use this 5 days from now, then obviously your quality of your margarita is not going to be good. But if you squeeze it to order, then you're going to make probably a way better margarita than even many bars. I feel like quality when it comes to citrus just trying to have it fresh. RT: I love home bartending. I feel like it is true that there's certain things that you can do, you know, even just the ice that you have in your fridge as long as it's not too old and getting a different freezer flavors from whatever else you you have in there. There's there's a lot of stuff that that people have just in their kitchen that you can make some really good—I remember just finding some advice somewhere to if there's a cocktail that you like or just pick a cocktail and just buy the ingredients for that cocktail, you know, like build your ingredients that way. What do you think about that about just kind of getting started, where to start? FM: I think understanding flavor is like the key to being like a great bartender. One of the one of the the faces you have to wear wear to be a great bartender. And like you can take a cocktail as simple as a Negroni and then like if you substitute your red bitter, or you substitute your vermouth, or you substitute your gin, you can have thousands of options just for the one cocktail or you can take a cocktail as simple as a daiquiri which is going to be rum, lime and sugar. But if you change rums, and it's going to taste completely different you know understanding the flavor what makes it unique what makes it different is very important. Though I think I would say that it's more in a professional setting. I think for the home bartender, again, like to me having quality ingredients is just going to make you a quality drink. Understanding like why you shake a cocktail, why you stir it, like little things like that can just make a world of a difference. RT: When do you shake versus stir? What's the science behind it? FM: So the science behind it obviously is dilution first. And so you're diluting um at a different rate, but you're also adding oxygen in your shaker. And so the motion is just adding oxygen. And so as a rule of thumb, you typically will shake anything that has some kind of juice or eggs or milk or cream or something that you know needs a little, like, it needs the motion of shaking for the ingredients to actually incorporate. When it comes to stirring, you don't really want to change the chemical composition of the spirit. So you don't really want to shake it. You want the flavors to stay there. You just basically want to chill it. You want to get it cold. And this is like, you know, little things like the least ice you have in your shaker or in your mixing glass, the faster the drink is going to dilute, but it might not get to the right temperature. And so maybe little things like that, like having enough ice on hand to like pack your shaker or pack your mixing glass and make sure that it's full. Those things can give you more control and they can give you a better drink at home. It seems simple, but it's actually the most important step. The quality of the ice and then how how to do it. RT: I always like to say the secret ingredient in every cocktail is water. And how you deal with the water is really makes a difference in in how good the drink turns out. FM: The ice is is going to melt in your drink. So it's a big part of your drink. It is important that the ice is of good quality. RT: So guys, get out there and get some ice out of your out of your freezer and see what you have in in your kitchen cabinets and make some cocktails. Yes. Start just start somewhere. Thank you so much, Felipe. Will you tell us the link to find out more about Yolo mezcal, the website? And I'll also include that information in the show notes. Yeah, our uh website is going to be yolamezcal.com. RT: \[spells website) FM: And then that is going to be also the link for Instagram. There's a lot of information in the brand there. There's also, like stores. We list most of the liquor store where you can can actually find the product where we are available right now which is New York, California, New Jersey, Connecticut, Colorado, Texas. And but we're, you know, we're opening new markets. We opened a few new markets last year like Colorado, Tennessee. 2023 is kind of like a year, it's going to be a year of expansion for us after the pandemic. So, we're trying to open new markets. FM: Okay. So, stay tuned and and keep checking back for this this delicious mezcal. And thank you so much for for talking to me about all of these things, Felipe. Thank you so much to all of our listeners. Wherever you go and whatever you drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Support us on Patreon. Grab the newsletter at mododibere.com and subscribe to the YouTube channel @mododibere to watch the travel show Modo di Bere TV. Music for the show was composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou. Purchase their music at the link in the notes. \[NOTE: **We are no longer using Patreon!** Become a member [right here](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e14-tazzelenghe-the-tongue-cutter/#/portal/) to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\] Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Holiday Wine Paing Guide ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e11-holiday-wine-pairing-guide/) [ Inventing an Alphabet ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e9-stefan-kisyov-the-hagiographer-glagolitic/) ### ▷S4E9 Stefan Kisyov’s Glagolitic Novel URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e9-stefan-kisyov-the-hagiographer-glagolitic/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T03:43:48.000Z The Hagiographer is a historical fiction novel about the 9th century philosopher who invented the Glagolitic alphabet and his rogue biographer. I was riding the New York City subway when I ran into my friend Vlada Tomova, who runs a Bulgarian woman's choir. She was with the Bulgarian writer Stefan Kisyov and his family, on the way back from an event at the Bulgarian embassy that celebrated the publication of his book The Hagiographer. To give family a little taste of New York, Vlada was taking them to Caffe Reggio in the West Village. I ended up tagging along so that I could hear more about Stefan's historical fiction novel, set partly in Rome, about the person who created the Glagolitic alphabet, the first Slavonic alphabet. Even though The Hagiographer is not yet available in English, I encouraged Stefan to sit down for an interview so that I could learn more about what drew him to write a book about the birth of an alphabet. He graciously agreed to give his first ever interview in English. I also went shopping for at a mall in Brooklyn with Stefan and his daughter Maria so she could buy some Converse sneakers. Maria taught me a Bulgarian saying that will be available on Modo di Bere's social media pages. > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DRVCeomj3XF/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DRVCeomj3XF/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DRYZ6vgDbFh/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DRYZ6vgDbFh/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DRLGDS1jxLV/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DRLGDS1jxLV/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) Stefan Kisyov was born in 1963 in Stara Zagora, Bulgaria, where he completed his secondary education at the local French high school. He worked as an electrician, administrator in a hotel on the Black Sea coast, stage worker at the Stara Zagora Opera. He studied at the Plovdiv and Sofia Universities and the Sorbonne in Paris, and was a freelance journalist in several capital newspapers. He is the author of 50-60 stories, the novels "Jukebox", "Nothing Anywhere", "Don't Be a Somnambulist". For "The Executioner", in 2004, he received the grand prize of the "VIK" Foundation for Bulgarian Novel of the Year. Order the English translation of Stefan’s book The Executioner directly from the author: kissiov@abv.bg Stefan Kisyov's facebook page: [facebook.com/stefan.kisyov](https://facebook.com/stefan.kisyov) Stefan's publisher: [erabooks.net](https://www.erabooks.net/?ref=mododibere.com) Hear some Bulgarian folk music from Vlada Tomova's Yasna Voices Women's Choir: [instagram.com/yasnavoices](https://www.instagram.com/yasnavoices/?ref=mododibere.com) **Edited autotranscript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript SK: I think that maybe this this falcon was flying with him all his life. And even when I saw the the letter, he looks a little bit like bird who is flying and hunting. As the first letter of Glagolits, like his falcon. He put it in his alphabet. His favorite beloved falcon. RT: Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. RT: I'm extremely pleased to be today with Stefan Kisyov. Stefan is a Bulgarian writer who has published the author of 10 novels, short stories, plays, novels including Thy Name is a Woman, The Hagiographer, Don't Wake Up the Sleepwalker, The Novel of the Year, The Executioner, the current new release is what we're here to talk about today. So, we're going to be talking about the Hagiographer and alphabets, language, and many other things. Stefan, welcome. 10 novels, short stories, and plays. His novel, The Executioner, won an award in Bulgaria. It was the novel of the year. His latest book is called The Hagiographer. Yes. But first, since it's the podcast about local drinks and local sayings, I like to ask my guests for a local saying and a local drink. So do you have a local drink that you can tell me about from Bulgaria? SK: Yes. Bulgaria is very famous with his wines and the famous rakias. They are very good I think and very famous. RT: What is rakia? SK: It's a kind of distillation which is made from the from different fruits like a brandy. Yeah, this brandy of uh something sweet which is very strong. It's maybe sometimes it's very depend of the rakia of course but there are rakias which are maybe 60 or 70° strong which is very very much made from plums or all different kinds of fruit. Yeah. all kind of fruits even from wine. You can make rakia from wines and the rakias from wines are the best because are more fine and more tasty. RT: So let's talk about some local sayings from Bulgarian. If you're going to teach me just a little bit of Bulgarian, what would be a fun phrase for me to know in Bulgarian? SK: I will pronounce it in Bulgarian. Който пее, зло не мисли. Which mean who is singing doesn't think about bad things. RT: Oh that's beautiful. That's beautiful. I like that one a lot. I think a lot of times I will ask people to explain the literal translation and then say when you would use this. But I think I think the meaning is apparent. That's a that's a really nice a nice SK: It's not so philosophical but it's uh the first thing I remember in this moment. RT: I like it a lot. Thank you so much. Let's start talking about the Hagiographer. I understand a Hagiographer to be someone who writes the biographies of the saints. Is that the correct understanding of the the title? SK: Yeah. Or biography of the people who will became saints. He's kind of kind of writer and investigator in the same time. This profession was created by the church in maybe the beginning of the the first years of the church maybe exist in even in our days because the church continue to exist in our days. So my hagiographer is the one of the principal heroes of the novel. He has to write a biography of one person from Byzantia, Constantine Filosof, Philosopher, who is the creator of the old Slavonic script. Glagolitz. RT: Glagolitz. Yeah, I looked this up. Glagolitic? is that— SK: I don't know how you pronounce it in English. RT: So, if you're if you're if you're looking this up in English, the the Glagolitic alphabet. SK: Yeah. RT: So, I understand it's a historical fiction that is set partly in Rome, but maybe we can start talking about the history a little bit and then you can tell us about the fiction part. So, who was Constantine the philosopher? SK: He was the the man who created the Slavic written language. RT: The alphabet. SK: Yeah. And who created the alphabet, the first alphabet. But before this person the Slavonic languages because they were different Slavonic languages who were were just languages without written literature without alphabet without anything. The only written languages in in Europe were Latin, Greek and Jewish language. But in 9th century Constantine Philosopher decided to create from this language written language and not only written but he decided to translate the Bible into Slavonic language. Not only to translate it but he decided to use not the Latin alphabet or Greek alphabet but created his own alphabet. And this alphabet is the Glagolitic script. And he not only did this which was very difficult in this time but he tried and he successfully did it to be he went to the pope in this time and tried to to convince him. Yeah. To to declare that the alphabet Bulgarian uh this old Glagolits script and language Slavonic language are official language. This time and the church permitted to translate and to to translate the Bible in this language and to use it in church. And he did it alone. All these things. In the 9th century. RT: I have to say it really sparks my imagination to think of sitting down and inventing the alphabet I think when maybe when we are little little children we imagine that languages were created in this way like all at once by one person or a group of people around the table and then of course you learn that that's not how languages or alphabets are invented. So I think this must have been an extraordinary person. SK: Yeah. And he uh I wanted to tell something else about Constantine that he not only defended the right of the Slavonic people to to pray in their own language but he he did that all the people in the world has a right to pray in their own mother language and this was really revolutionary thing in 9th century. The church was in this time very very conservative organization. It it was like miracle that the church agree and this and permitted Constantine Philosopher to use Slavonic language in the churches and to use after that and to use officially the the Bulgaria like a country to use this language like official language and from this language after that which is very important, the language Slavonic—Bulgarian Slavonic people, who uses this language in Bulgaria, created the first literature in not only translated the the church but translated a lot of literature pieces in in old Slavonic, old Bulgarian Slavonic. After that they gave this alphabet and this translated books to the Russian and now and Russia use this alphabet and Serbia and I don't know how exactly how many people but a lot a lot of people in the world now use this this language and this alphabet. RT: What did it look like? SK: Glagolits was a very very beautiful alphabet. She was made from three geometrical figures from the circle triangle and and the cross. Yeah. And all in all the letters there were symbols of this three elements. Oh, not only that but all the books had different signification. Like show it what will happen even in in the future they were caught for different numbers. It's for very very complicated alphabet. It was too very difficult to to be used in this time. That's why when the alphabet became official alphabet and the language was official language in Slavonic language became official in Bulgaria in this time, everybody decided that it is very difficult to be used it from for every from everybody because it was not easy it's it is like heiroglyphs— RT: Like hieroglyphs. SK: Kind of hieroglyphs, yeah. Very complicated. All the books all the letters and uh they changed it and made did the new alphabet who is who was uh named Azbuka who came from Glagoitsa. The Azbuka that mean alphabet Bulgarian alphabet which is more simple and uh only six letters from Glagolitsa came in the Bulgarian alphabet and the other one were taken from Greek alphabet and from Latin alphabet. And so they made some alphabet which more easy and more comfortable for everybody. RT: But this was the first idea of of an alphabet of a written language in these tongues. SK: The idea! That's the the big question was big question for me in my novel because when I was learned and studied a lot of things about Constantine and I was writing the novel I was wondering really why he decided to make all these things what he want to say with this alphabet or with Glagolitsa because there are a lot of symbols in this alphabet especially the first and f finally I noticed that the first letter of Glagolitsa I don't know how to explain it here but which is like a cross with other a cross in a circle, but if you look it well you you it looks like a person, like man. I mean that's this alphabet finally and everybody think that this man is Jesus Christ. Everybody can imagine something different that this is just a man! This is just a simple man and this is the alphabet for everybody for man, which is very revolutionary in this time in 9th century to make alphabet which is um which created the the man in the first place, which is before God and before the religion. I mean like a humanist like humanist in 14th centuries in Renaissance six centuries later started to do it but Constantine did it in 9th century. RT: So this hieroglyph that resembled a person what was the meaning of that letter? SK: That mean "me," "person". That mean in, yes "I". Because the first letter in Bulgarian Azbuka in alphabet is I, but this is the same pronunciation for the for the person so this is another proof that it's not just look like person but it's the real intention of Constantine to make something like this to to pro to to show to the the people that the importance of the man. RT: That was pretty interesting. SK: Yeah. RT: These circles and crosses and triangles. Did those have sacred symbolic meanings as well? SK: Yes, maybe they have a lot of meanings and secrets. But because there are a lot of theories what every letter of this alphabet mean? Because six centuries before Leonardo, Constantine Filosof was the maybe one of the most uh intelligent and clever people of this time of his time. He knew maybe 10 or 15 languages. He was very good in philosophies in mathematics in he created alphabet. He created new language. He was the father of the Slavonic language because all these languages in fact are not Slavonic language or other languages but they are Constantine languages. He made this this language. If Constantine were not were not was not created this alphabet and these phonemes, nobody knows what could happen with all these languages with all these people who spoke this language because language language change and if some language hasn't, doesn't have literature and he is not written, language disappear. Only the literature and alphabet and schools made from one language because we have examples that a lot of language from the beginning of the human history disappeared. The language who has not who haven't hasn't had not alphabets and literature didn't yeah they just disappear. RT: Like a dream. SK: Yeah there are a lot of examples. RT: So tell me a little bit about the novel the story that happens we talked about the history a little bit. So what happens in in your book The Hagiographer? SK: The story is about this hagiographer who is very complicated person he has dark history. He was criminal and went in the jail, was come down to that but survived this. He loves money. He loves beautiful women. He's just a kind of adventurer. But in the same time, he loves God and he wanted to serve to to God in this time because he wanted to became a good man and to prove himself that he is good person. But one day in his home arrived some people, some men who who ask him to go to one very famous and very rich Rome princess who is who want to see him and to talk with him and give him some money for the time that he will lose. He first doesn't agree but when when he see the money he agree and go with him mean to to talk with this princess. This princess, princess Monti, wants from him to that he write a biography of Constantine Philosopher. Explain about him that he came 20 years ago in Rome that he created one new alphabet Glagolits script and ask him to write the biography of this saint. Our person first doesn't agree say I'm not too interested to write somebody who is dead so long ago and so and he leave the princess but finally in the street he decide to come back and to take the the job and so that's the beginning of the novel and after that he has a lot of adventures he have meetings with different people who knew Constantine Philosopher to speak with Bulgarian king with in Constantinople to speak with people who knew Constantine Philosopher when he was young and he was living there and he has a lot of adventures and finally he discovered that a lot of things that I don't know want to explain now to your listeners because I have to take the secret the novel to be more interesting for them one day if they decide to read it. RT: The cover design is very beautiful and there's a picture of a falcon on the front. I'm wondering where the falcon comes from in the story. SK: Yeah, the falcon is not—very special—has very special place in this story. First because when Constantine was very young, thus my, the hagiographer, he had a very he was in a rich family, Byzantian family, lived in this family. And he like the fashion of this time was that all the children the boys has falcons to go to for animals in the forest to hunt. Yeah. With these falcons. This was the fashion. This was very modern to to to have a falcon. And he has one very very beautiful falcon, very expensive. But when they he was once in the forest with this falcon, he lose it. The falcon fly away and he never saw him again. And Constantine was very very sad about this. He was absolutely disappeared. He he started to he stopped to to eat to to drink water and nearly one week he was nearly dead from this case. He he absolutely was in shock after this lose of this falcon and this lo loss changed his life finally because after that he he he just he became different person. He understand that many of the things in this world are not like he wants day to be and decided to make something very important very useful in his life and after that he decided to create this alphabet and to make from Slavic language, written language. And so that's is this is the the importance and I think that maybe this this falcon was flying with him all his life and even when I saw the the letter he looks a little bit like bird who is flying and hunting as the first letter of Glagolits, like his falcon, he put it in his alphabet his favorite beloved falcon. RT: It's kind of like, this may not have been his intention, but as you were saying before about languages fading away, he really kept his own mother tongue from disappearing. He wrote it down. He was able to make it permanent. SK: But nobody could be sure why he did it. That's why in my novel I didn't tell readers one theory. I was making make I was making like mix of theories and say to the reader that all of these theories are possible, in fact, and it's to reader to decide which is the real answer of the question why. RT: Like a bit of a mystery. SK: Yeah. I I mean this novel is not so mystery novel novel. It's more philosophical novel than than mystery novel. Mystery here is not criminal mystery, or miracle mystery, but uh philosophical mystery. Is the philosophical question first why why we people should have many language and why we should use different languages because if we have if imagine if everybody in the world use just one language it will be much more easy for everybody. Everybody could feel everywhere like home. It is in the same time good and in the same time bad that it's very complicated question: are good all these languages or they are not so good? And they were also in the same time different language made created problems between people between countries there was were a lot of wars because of the languages so the question is philosophical a little bit, is that good or not good, that to make new alphabet ,to make new language. That's why, I mean, the writer has not to be to give answers he just have to help reader to to has his own answer for the problems and for everything and to to to start himself to to study and to try to to think not to take already intellectual food. RT: Was there a book for you that made you start to ask more questions when you were young? SK: Yeah, a lot of books when I was young, when I was 16 or something like this, my favorite books were like uh Siddhartha of Herman Hesse, Dostoevsky, Crime and Punishment and I was reading Salinger, Catcher in the Rye. I I like it a lot when I was this in the age. I still like it, of course. I was reading a lot of American literature. I mean Hemingway, the Old man and the Sea. Yeah, something like this. All kind of this literature. I like it in this time to read and I still to when I was writing The Hagiographer and not only Hagiographer, Executioner, and all my books, I'm trying to not to give always question answers but to make something like new person new something that is alive and who will live in the memories and imagination of the people who is reading and to to feel the pleasure of this reading of course. RT: Did you always want to be a writer? SK: Yeah. All my life I I maybe not always but when I was maybe 12 I decided to to write to became when I was reading one book from Jack London, Martin Eden. I decided to to be like him to because in this book it was written exactly how what you have to do to become a writer. Martin Eden was one very normal guy without big education who decided to became a writer and he started to study to write to make exercises finally he became famous. I like this example very much and decided in this age. No, but I really like it all the time. I like it to write and to to read. RT: In what time period does the novel take place? SK: Hagiographer, in two times. The first the beginning is in our our days. One person in Czech Republic goes in one very old monastery and find there some very old script in old Slavonic or old Bulgarian language. And he make pictures of this script. And after that he sent the pictures of the script to one good friend who is living in Bulgarian, Bulgarian academia of science who know Old Slavonic and ask him to translate the script and sometime later he received the translation. I start to to read it. He start to make uh something like a novel of this and the novel in fact the novel is this the script who was translated from the old Bulgarian Slavonic language. That's the beginning the new of our days and after that the action goes in 9th century the story starts in 9th century and finish 9th century. RT: What was the Hagiographer's name? SK: Atanasi. RT: Atanasi? SK: Atanasi. He—nobody knows nationality but he's living in Rome that's all we know about him. He know more about him character his life but not he has no in fact he has not nationality and all my heroes had not all of them but most of them has not nationality because in this time nationalities were not created in Europe in this time everything was mixed there were a lot of different countries they change but the notion nationality does didn't exist in this time everybody spoke about faith who is Christian who is Muslim who is Jewish nationality didn't mean nothing in this time RT: So let's talk a little bit about your novel The Executioner which is more widely available in translation. What was that story about? SK: That story's about the life of one person. It's a kind of a little bit fantasy story. One person who became a killer for the country in his communist country in one communist jail. He started to kill the people for the country. He was executioner. But in the same time we have we have all his life. I mean, for me it was interesting to make something somebody executioner but to show him exactly what make him executioner and what could be the life of one man if he work or not work but he became executioner and I made somebody. It's kind of absurd and black humor novel because in during this communism because the the time of the book, Executioner in time of the communism, the life of the people was very different than now. This is one man his father was from other planet he came here because his plane was broken and he falled in earth and made family here and he was the father my principal hero. But they were very, they had very miserable life in Bulgaria. They were very poor. And the father started to work in one circus. The the childhood of the my personage was in the circus. His father was a clown and even he and the little boy helped his father sometimes in to make jokes public. And they were very famous in this time in Bulgaria and European countries when they make visit with the circus. But all this time because the action of the book became with the moment that when my boy, my hero was little boy, his father told him his story that he came from other planet. And this planet was very beautiful. There were very special things in this planet, very modern. Everybody was very lucky things like that. And from this age my hero started to dream about this planet. And all this time when he was poor and unhappy, he had the intention to go in this planet. But he did not know how to go on this planet. He tried everything but he first he started to go in one school to study for pilot to became pilot because he decided that in this time there was first cosmonaut. One day maybe he will became cosmonaut and go to his planet. But when he was in the school this unhappy thing happened that his captain, his boss in the in the army, in the school, military school, and he was put in the jail and was sentenced to death. But they told me that we don't kill you if you became executioner, but if you don't became you will be killed. So he he had no choice and he chose to live and to become executioner. I will tell maybe all the story! \[laughs\] But after that he has a lot of adventures in the jail and in the this and finally he he became cosmonaut finally. RT: Aw. SK: They put him in this Russian Soviet in I forget now in what country in Kyrgyzstan, or the Russian cosmonaut city. And there he made a lot of adventures too. He put he met him very famous women cosmonaut make a little bit romance with them and one day he went to the cosmos with his Russian spaceship but like everybody knows Russian spaceships are not so perfect. He had some some technical problems and everything started to be very bad and he will he will be dying maybe. But then happened this miracle and when he saw in the mirror mirror he saw one extraterrestrial ship that was was from one planet the planet of his father. And they help with him of course to make reparation of his spaceship and even they told me if he wants he could go with them in planet of his father. He decided to go with them. But finally when he saw the the planet, he was very sad about his girlfriend who is and decided to stay. And that's the a little bit like this this novel. RT: It sounds fantastic. SK: Very humor romantic and a little bit horror. RT: That sounds wonderful. I'm gonna read it. I will let our listeners know that while we wait for the translation of Stefan Kisyov's new novel, The Hagiographer, into hopefully many languages, go ahead and look for this novel, The Executioner. Go to your local book seller. Go to your library and say, "Help me find this book. It is available in English, Serbian, German, and Czech, as well as the original Bulgarian." And thank you so much for for speaking with me today. Do you have any any further thoughts about language or writing or anything else that you'd like to share? SK: Thank you very much too. I appreciate your invitation very much. RT: Thank you very much for speaking with me today. To all of our listeners, thank you so much for for listening to the show. And remember, wherever you go and whatever you drink, always remember to enjoy your life and never stop learning. Support us on Patreon. Grab the newsletter at mododibere.com and subscribe to the YouTube channel at Modo di Bere to watch the travel show Modo di Bere TV. Music for the show was composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou. Purchase their music at the link in the notes. \[NOTE: **We are no longer using Patreon!** Become a member [right here](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e14-tazzelenghe-the-tongue-cutter/#/portal/) to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\] ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/kisyov-3-format-original.jpg) Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Mezcal: A Farmer's Spirit ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e10-felipe-munoz-yola-mezcal/) [ A Cellist and a Mountain ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e8-serena-jost-and-the-mountains/) ### ▷S4E8 Serena Jost and the Mountains URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e8-serena-jost-and-the-mountains/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T22:35:03.000Z Visionary cellist and composer Serena Jost grew up between Switzerland and Michigan, speaking the Swiss German language with her family and climbing up on the roof with a homemade radio antennae to take in the sounds of languages she didn't know. Serena writes lyrics that are poetic rather than narrative, takes inspiration from literature, and composes some songs in wordless or invented tongues. Serena describes the mind-opening, terrifying shapes of the Swiss Alps and their effect on human psychology. She and Rose Thomas discuss different modes of language acquisition, from need-based to perfectionistic to every-day. They also discuss the seemingly divine nature of composition, discuss a couple of poems, and play several songs from Serena's three albums, A Bird Will Sing, Up to the Sky, and Closer than Far, as well as two unreleased recordings. Purchase Serena's recordings—and hire her for remote cello lessons!—at her website: [serenajost.com](http://serenajost.com/?ref=mododibere.com) You can purchase Rose Thomas Bannister's new record at [rosethomasbannister.bandcamp.com](https://rosethomasbannister.bandcamp.com/album/the-little-wren-4?ref=mododibere.com). > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQvkL-eDZOI/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQvkL-eDZOI/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQjtdj7DYQB/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQjtdj7DYQB/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQe7PYNgNXg/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQe7PYNgNXg/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) Expand for edited autotranscript. (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript SJ: The mountains are magnificent and they're incredibly beautiful and inviting and rich and full of life and terrifying and dark and brutal and everything. You know, they give and they take, right? At least in Switzerland, they did—historically a lot of different things would happen. But the mountains are like an orientation. When you have those shapes and you live in those shapes, it's really profound, you know. RT: Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. Today's musical guest is Serena Jost. I really love to talk with musicians and composers who do interesting things with the language or with interesting languages. So Serena Jost is a singer, cellist, and composer. Stereo Ember magazine called her the Elizabeth Barrett Browning of Avant Classical Folk. Serena is a longtime New Yorker who grew up between the Midwest and Switzerland. She has walked along the Great Lakes, over mountain passes, and loves to take to the streets of New York City. Serena has performed in Europe and the UK and throughout the US and Canada. She has been on stage at seminal New York City venues such as Joe's Pub, Rockwood Music Hall, The Owl, Barbes, The Swiss Consulate, The Living Room, Pete's Candy Store, Tonic, and The Kitchen. Together with composer cellist Matthew Robinson, she led a 50 cello performance on Governor's Island, and she was an original member of the band Rasputina. Serena, welcome. I've popped out to my Brooklyn fire escape to tell you about this month's sponsor, Culture Without Borders Language Collective, who believe that the best way to learn language is through friendship. I'm going to be doing a collaborative event with Culture Without Borders, and I'm going to tell you a little more about it later in the episode. Before we start the interview, I want to let you know that Modo di Bere exists thanks to listeners like you. Your support makes it possible for us to interview wine makers, artisans, and everyday people who keep local culture alive. Please take a moment now to visit patreon.com/mododibere. This fascinating interview will be here when you get back. Serena, I've always wanted to talk more with you about growing up in this multilingual place, which is Switzerland, but I went ahead and put our interview on a calendar when you mentioned that you have some music in a made-up language. SJ: Yeah. So, well, um, just quickly, my family is from Switzerland and I grew up between Switzerland and Michigan and all of my relatives were in Switzerland and in our Midwestern college town household, we spoke Swiss German dialect and had a lot of the cultural things, you know, from Swiss culture. I do have a song with a made-up language because to me I guess that there's like something like pre-language, you know, which is the sounds that mean things that are closest to the story you're telling. And in some ways by the time you have words for something, you're already falling short of what you were trying to say. So yeah, so I do have a made-up language because I feel like it's maybe the purest form of expression. RT: That is so interesting. Let's play a little bit of that song now. \[Austere cello music with emphatic vocals in a made-up language\] RT: Wow. So, what is the story there? SJ: Well, it's more a story about an encounter and it starts with an exploration that there's there's a misunderstanding and the person—or me!—the person I'm channeling asserts themselves and sort of finds their power. And so it's like it's both kind of luring you in and it's like inviting you in and at the same time it's like if you you know busted out of a shirt or something, something like that. RT: And there's also a second part to the song that's kind of interesting. We're going to play the second part now. But do you want to talk to me about how the song's in two parts? SJ: Yeah, the song's in two parts. So the first part is the language and then it goes into a very dynamic part called it's it's still jump the song jump and it's about total defiance like and and daring someone to try to stop me and you know you'll hear in the lyrics what that is. So I'm just I'm saying you can try but I'm going to have fun doing whatever I want to do. \[Upbeat music with drums and quirky synth sounds, vocals in English\] RT: Oh, I love that. SJ: Thank you. RT: Can you talk about your record? SJ: Yeah. Okay. So, I have three albums and I'm making another one right now and that is from Closer than Far which I made with the producer Brad Albetta who's really amazing and the band obviously figured largely in that piece, and then after that I made an album with Anton Fier, the extraordinary producer Anton Fier, called A Bird Will Sing. And that was also with my band. So, the band shifted a little bit but mostly I've had the same people all along. Julian Maile is the person you hear on guitar and Rob Jost plays bass and Robert DiPietro plays drums. I made an album, I had, like, it was great working with Anton, but it was like an architectural experience you know where it was like this person with a super structure sense came in and produced something and it was amazing to work with him but then the pendulum swang and I wanted to do something totally personal live so I did a solo cello and voice recording in St. Peter's church which was built in 1848 in Chelsea and I did a, you know, it was me and eight microphones, and Adam Gold recorded that. And so it was a series of songs and also sort of improvisations that happened in the space and that was you know just a totally different very raw whatever I got we kept type of thing. Now we're making a new album back to the band but a little bit more of that live feeling like I want to see what happens and let it stand. RT: That sounds amazing. And that recording, all of those recording experiences sound incredible in in different ways. So, you also sent me another song that you described as wordless, which is "It's a Delight." I believe that's from the church album. SJ: Yeah, it's called Up to the Sky. RT: Up to the sky. So, I was curious how you differentiate wordless from the made-up language because you use two different ways to describe that. SJ: Yeah. So, um, the made-up language is something that I'm telling something like I have something specific that I'm saying. By way of background, I grew up without a television and you know with the Swiss household in the Midwest, but we did have a shortwave radio which I would take to the roof and I would fashion an antenna out and listen to the radio on the roof and I listen I love listening to languages that I didn't understand like for hours. So I feel like I have an affinity to sound and it's like almost if you listen long enough long enough to something you don't understand you'll start to understand it. And the wordless song just to answer your question about the, Up to the Sky, like, "It's a Delight," that's, I feel like it's like something that's...I feel like I'm just a vessel and that the sounds are coming through me, you know, I start something and I I don't know what it is I have no idea and it's sort of like I'm just the there to receive it so there's a difference. RT: It's a little more ecstatic maybe. SJ: Yes. Yeah. RT: So let's let's play "It's a Delight." \[Soaring cello music with "wordless" vocals\] RT: I really love the way that you captured the sound in that building, the acoustics of a certain space. It's a type of local culture that I think we don't really consider! SJ: Yeah. And you know, it was like a very incredible thing to do in that space because it's been around for such a long time and I felt like there were these sort of balconies and I felt I felt like the presence of people over time in that space, you know, so that was really, you know, was I felt just like it was an honor to record there. RT: That's a beautiful story and it's a really beautiful song. I want to hear more about what it was like for you being connected to more than one homeland and and I'm thinking about there's another song that I want to play next which is "Blue Flowers," and I noticed there's a line in there that says "pick a country." I don't know if that has anything to do with your upbringing but I just want to hear a little more about your experience of being in two places and growing up and how language factored into that and anything you want to tell us about that song. SJ: You know, it's really interesting to grow up and with an awareness of that you belong to two places. Maybe some people have even more places, but in some ways you have like access you your consciousness about you don't take for granted where you live and in some ways you have this special gift and you have the gift of learning a language just because you're around it, you know, that's an amazing thing. And in Switzerland, people speak multiple languages. Most people speak multiple languages. RT: What are some of the main languages that you see in Switzerland? SJ: Well, you have four basically. So, you have Swiss German, which is the dialect that I speak. And then there's French and Italian, and then there's a language called Romansh, which is 11% I believe of the country speaks it. It's an old Latin dialect, and it's the most incredible sounding language. So, and a lot of people because it's a small country, it's close, everything's close, so you cross into other languages with frequency. So many people have a pretty good handle on two to three plus English language often. So and I because I was had my schooling in the United States I didn't have that advantage but I have some French and I have German and then my Swiss German and then I had I have high German also which is you know the Schriftdeutsch which is like what they would speak in Germany. RT: Could you tell me a little more about the difference between Swiss German dialect? SJ: Yeah, I mean Germany has dialects too, but the Schriftdeutsch is sort of the written proper German and it's, you know, it's it's a language that it's like has Swiss German has its own grammar actually. So, it's a different it's a very different than the high German for me. When I speak high German, I sort of feel like I'm trying to speak British English like it's kind of like like it's in my stuck in my mouth somewhere, you know? But Swiss German is a language of my heart. So, there are things that I can say in Swiss German that I cannot say in English. There's not a translation really, you know. RT: Give me an example. \[Speaking Swiss German\] These are things like "I like this. It pleased me," \[speaking Swiss German\] You know, it's just like, it's different, like, if I said, today, "Today is Wednesday," in high German, \[speaks high German\] and in dialect we say \[speaks Swiss German\] So it's different, right? And I think the language of caring also from my parents was Swiss German and there I mean there are there's obviously so much music Swiss German dialect there lots of famous artists. I guess for me like it's both an advantage of of having these two places and then in some ways you never belong. You you don't you're not you don't fit in. Like when I would go to...here, I would feel really like incredibly European, like you know rustic doing all these things, not doing American cultural things. And then when I would go to Switzerland my relatives say would say "Du bisch sehr amerikanisch worde," which means, you've become so American. And I would be like, well, I'm just both. And then the solve was to move to New York City, where whoever you are is embraced. I mean it really doesn't matter. People don't, people, everyone is from somewhere, right? And there's such an just an incredible group of people here, so whatever your configuration here, it's like, okay, great. I think I appreciate the being raised by European Swiss parents and kind of having access to that culture it's a different way a little bit of being and then on the American side I like you know being able to like speak my mind and be direct and brash a little forward that's like more American. \[laughs\] RT: I love how you describe the personalities of of the languages. SJ: Yes, it's it's in there. Actually, in my family, we had a German friend and when you know different family friends and one guy would come over and when he and my mother would speak German, they would complain and when they spoke English, they would have like this more optimism. \[RT laughs\] It's just like in the culture, you know, we say, \[Swiss German\] it's in the culture. (Sponsor message) I popped out to my Brooklyn fire escape to let you know about a collaborative event between Culture Without Borders Language Collective and Modo di Bere. The event is on November 16th, 2025, and it's a bilingual wine tasting where English and Spanish learners can practice their languages and learn about wine while meeting some nice new people. Please go to cwbcollective.com and sign up for their email list to find out about this and other events for language learners everywhere. RT: So I really like to talk to people about idioms and sayings. Are there any like Swiss German proverbs or like something your mom used to say that kind of come to mind? SJ: I guess my mother is like a very positive person. You you might say things like you know like positive like little little witticism \[Swiss German\] "That's perfect." you know it's, I mean Germans say it's \[German\] but we say \[Swiss German\]. You know like, "I loved it." Everyone always talks about the "chuchichästli" when they're making—some people mock Swiss German because it has we have a lot of \[sound effect\] and a lot of sounds you know so the Germans always talk about this expression with the "chuchichästli" which is like it's not really a summary of the language there's nice things like for example if you say Good night. ou say "schlaf schön," and schlaf schön, you know, it's "Sleep well." and it's it's just a nice sometimes the sounds are warm. RT: They're kind of sonorous compared to the German that I've heard. SJ: Absolutely. Yes. And it's it's more sing-songy and there are within Switzerland lots of little dialects like even though I grew up, you know, with Swiss parents in Michigan, people can tell which region my parents are from, which region my family's from. RT: So which region is that? SJ: From Canton Graubünden which is like in the southeastern part. It's beautiful there. My mother's from Davos and my father's from Klosters. Those are kind of well-known ski villages. And then of course the World Economic Forum is at in Davos now. So I grew up you know in the mountains and just pick whatever picking flowers and drinking like in the, you can go above. You can go to this place called Schllein and you still you drink from the stream you know. It's it's pretty great. Now, of course, Switzerland is also a modern place, so there's, you know, whatever. There's cities, there's all kinds of people, you know, but the version I got was a little bit more of the older generation. Uh, my partner, the first time he's in Switzerland with me, we're up in this mountain side and my grandmother was there and she came with she came, he's like, "Oh my gosh, is she going to be okay? She has an axe." And I was like, "Yes, she's gonna, you know, use her axe." Like so there that was for a New York Jew like a surprising image and so so that was good. RT: There's something I I notice about if you're having an immigrant experience where you are then your version of the language that you learn is from a different generation because you're not spending as much time with contemporaries your own age. So, do you find now if you talk with someone your age from Swiss German, are you kind of old-fashioned? SJ: Absolutely. I mean, it's so great that you're saying that because it's true. You you're almost like frozen in time a little bit. And so when I go to Switzerland now and I'm hanging out with younger cousins or whatever, I feel like, oh, that's how you say that, you know, like that's how you say it and sound cool like, you know, or the fast like those witty. It's just also maybe cultural has kind of gotten a little more less formal across the board. So, you know, like people throw things out there. So, I definitely every time I'm in Switzerland, I feel like, oh my gosh, I I'm needing to update and I'm trying to grab whatever I can. RT: You still have like very strong grasp of your language. It didn't get rusty for you? SJ: Not so much. I speak Swiss German with my mother exclusively. Like, we only speak Swiss German. And I had an experience, you know, my brothers and I, we we all spoke at home, but I guess I had an experience where I had an accident when I was 15 and I was in Europe and I ended up in the hospital in Switzerland and I had to deal. So I learned to really use my language in a way that I hadn't before RT: Because it was your only option. SJ: Yeah, it was my only option and you know, silver lining as they say. So then and also I've had I have Swiss friends in New York. Um and then I did some work with the consulate. So it just you know am I as totally on point in Swiss German as I can be in English? Probably not. But am I am I able to express emotion and you know a feeling and connectedness? Yeah, absolutely. SJ: And I think I would love it if people would replace what you just said for their definition of fluency. Yeah. Especially Americans. I feel like there's two things that we do. We really assume that if you didn't learn something when you were really young that it's too late for you to learn language. And then we also just do this constant, oh well, I'm not fluent. And I it occurs to me when I'm speaking to people who have a little bit of a low confidence American language learning thing that I notice a lot. I started to wonder what is that definition of fluent? At which point you will have arrived and are you actually putting it up there with a native speaker? Yeah. And will you just continue to apologize until you sound like a native speaker? Because then you're going to apologize forever because you can't redo your life and become a native speaker. SJ: Yeah. I mean, I think you're right. And also like the way anybody learns anything is by starting with something and then like that's the first part and then you become dissatisfied with it and you go to the next thing or you you try things and stumbling is part of every child's language learning, you know? So why not for an adult? And like I think what you're saying is also great like what is the attainment of language because you know how even if you don't speak a language like I feel like a fake languages like if I'm traveling like if I know what I'm trying to communicate I find a way to get there. Yeah. You know what I mean? I think it's wonderful. Also language is empathy you know. So if you speak with someone or you try to speak their language that's a really special thing that you're doing. It's empathetic and it's like it's kind of like peacemaking or something you know. RT: Yeah. You know, I got really shy about my Spanish when I started learning Italian because they got kind of mixed up in my head and sometimes I'd say "di" instead of "de" and, as if that matters. You know, I had an experience where I had someone translate my questions for me for a Spanish podcast interview. It was actually my stepson. He did a terrific job, but there was this distance of having someone translate my questions. And it would have been so much better. Yeah. If I had just gone ahead with my Spanish, which is actually fine. You know, I'm actually gonna be launching a Spanish podcast soon. I learned Spanish when I was younger. So, the Italian was really fresh and hot, but the Spanish was a little more embodied. I have different connection to them, but the fascinating thing that happened was now I speak Spanish in an Italian accent, and people think I'm Italian, which is but that's part of my story, you know. That's wonderful. Yeah. And and I I just realized that when I'm speaking with someone, a Spanish speaker, an Italian speaker, and I throw a word in there, I'll I'll notice sometimes and apologize. Yeah. And they'll be like, "I understood to you." SJ: Right. Exactly. Exactly. That's so lovely, right? RT: Yeah. SJ: And also, yeah, that it's like it's always in motion, right? And you it's there's there's no like perfect moment, you know? There's just communicating. RT: At the end of our lives, we get aphasia and different things. SJ: Exactly. RT: And going back to babies and your experience of being in the hospital and having to use your language cuz no one around was speaking English. That's how it is for babies, too. They need to communicate in order to survive and say, "I need something. I, you know, I'm in pain. I'm hungry. I'm whatever." You know, basic needs. So, the motivation is incredible. And so when we're sitting here comparing ourselves to babies, it's like, well, do you really want to be in the kind of survival situation that's going to make you focus that much on your new language or do you rather just kind of struggle along slowly to get better over time, you know? SJ: And there's energy, too, you know, like when you're talking to someone and you're you don't have a common language or one of you isn't as agile in it, there's, you know, eye contact and body language, really universal things that kind of carry you through, right? RT: It's marvelous. And there's so much more about it than just getting the words perfect. And and and that's why I really do think that it goes together to talk about language and to talk about wine at least from you know my perspective as an American noticing that in both fields it can feel kind of mysterious or the attainment levels seems really high or it seems like this mysteriously difficult skill that is so impressive that people can do whereas you could be in another paradigm and it's just like yeah this is this is a part of life or if you're in Switzerland and you're speaking four or five languages just to you know go to another town or to talk to your brother-in-law or whatever, you know, like it's it's can be also very everyday. SJ: Well, I do feel like, you know, we tend to think of things as these sort of, well, this is the ultimate version of what I'm going to do and the ultimate thing when I have time, I'm going to do this thing or the ultimate dream. Those little things are just little bricks, you know, that you just like start with one and then you have the next one and then maybe you're getting somewhere, you know? Yeah. Right. It's it's just an awakening, you know, like and then like you're saying, it's so generous to communicate with people whether wine or language. It's like there's generosity. RT: So, let's listen to some more music. I wanted to play the song "Blue Flowers" and that just that line popped out to me of choosing a country. So, was there anything else you'd like to tell us about that song? SJ: Yeah, that song is like in some ways a very serious song. Um, and I guess you could start with the title. The blue flowers are, you know, you don't often see blue flowers. And it's sort of about if you have an awareness of yourself and you lose your sense of identity and what the structure and everything that held you is no longer true. What happens next? What happens when you have a total shift from what you what how you know yourself? Most people, all of us feel like that those can be kind of devastating moments. But in the chorus it goes to the place of freedom and you know the country um and you can hear you know talking it's a bit defiant and it's also like saying I'm ready for this. Whatever, come tidal wave, here I am I'm going to I'm going to you know just take this there is seriousness and joy in that song. \[Slow singing over plucked cello strings\] RT: Yeah, that is a beautiful song. What album is that one from? SJ: That's from A bird will sing, you know, which and Anton had a big part in shaping and bringing those songs out in a way that I hadn't imagined. That was really special. And that's Rob Jost there on the bass who is not related to me but has the same last name. RT: Oh, that's so funny. SJ: Yeah. Yeah. He's like he's same spelling. So we sometimes do a duo thing called Jost and Jost. RT: Oh, and he says "joast." Oh, that's so funny. Where is that from that? It's "joast" instead of "yoast?" SJ: think he's German Jewish background. I don't know. It's just kind of a random thing. Everyone thinks that either we're married or siblings and we kind of, you know, play into that, but but we're not. RT: Did you know that I also have a travel show? Modo di Bere TV is a series of regional documentaries I produce with the filmmaker Emilia Aghamirazai. Subscribe to the YouTube channel at Modo di Bere to follow my adventures as I taste wine with farmers who rescue forgotten grapes, play dominoes with the last speakers of a rare dialect and make friends with fishermen who still go out in wooden boats. All that and more is coming to youtube.com/m o d o d i b e r e. Go subscribe now. RT: As listeners of this show might know, I'm a singer songwriter myself, which is definitely part of why I like know so many cool musicians such as yourself. I feel like you and I have both been described as literary songwriters. Maybe because something about our lyric style or the fact that we also draw from literature and artwork or or maybe both. And I love this comparison from the press to Elizabeth Barrett Brown. \[sic\] Can you remind our listeners who she was? SJ: Elizabeth Barrett Browning was a poet. Um, and she, you know, um, she was, I think she was sort of forward for her time. She was probably in that Norton anthology that you read like when you were in school. And it was great that that reviewer made a comparison because, you know, I appreciate that. Intentionally I write sort of in a poetic way. I mean, sometimes write with a straight narrative, but sometimes straight narrative is not that interesting to me. So, I like the configuration of words. I think that's what he was relating to, you know, using words as shapes or creating patterns or rhythms within words. So, I think he he, you know, I really appreciated his writing. RT: So, I I'm pretty sure that this is she was born in the early 1800s, so I'm pretty sure this is in the the public domain. So, just to give you a little a little reference, the sonnet \[reads\]: How do I love thee? Let me count the ways. SJ: Yes. RT: I love thee to the depth and breadth and height my soul can reach when feeling out of sight for the ends of being and ideal grace. So that is that you might have heard that also referenced even if you haven't heard the poem. So I want to play two different songs that I think can give that example of why you're getting called a literary songwriter. And I think one would be maybe just the more poetic style and then the other one more of a lit more of a literary reference. So, I was thinking of the song Great Conclusions. There's just this kind of list of objects that I found to be really poetic. And this is from A Bird Will Sing as as was the last song. So. \[Slide guitar and driving drums, clean vocals\] RT: Delicious. SJ: Thank you. Thank you. I have to tell you who's playing, too. So that's Rob Jost on the bass and Julian Maile on that slicing guitar and Robert DiPietro is playing drums and then Thomas Bartlett who's goes by Doveman is on the keys there. RT: So we heard those last two songs that we heard were both from the album A Bird will Sing which had that kind of beautiful lush production. We got a chance to really hear the range cuz we also heard the song in the church recorded album which is Up to the Sky and then the couple of songs that we started with were from Closer than Far. You also shared with me a couple of works in progress which I feel really lucky to hear and and to share with our our listeners and they're beautiful. So speaking of literary references, there was a song called Euphoria and you said that it was a a Kurt Vonnegut reference. Yeah. So I'm involved in this thing called the Bushwick Book Club which is wonderful. It's run by Susan Huang who's just delightful and she invites artists to come. We all read the same book and then everyone comes up with a song. So there's all these totally varied different amazing songs and Kurt Vonnegut was one of the authors in the Monkey House. I read a short story there called The Euphio Question and it's about this device that transmits a signal from outer space to humans below which makes them feel completely blissful. And the story goes through sort of what happens to people like and how they come together and then also how they buy for they want to own it just like humans want to possess good things and monetize them. So anyway so my song I called it Euphoria and it's based on that also that just based on that you know piece of writing. RT: I think that illusion of possession is probably our biggest problem. SJ: Yeah. Well, it's also it's the mirage. Once you have something and you feel like you possess it, whether it's like superiority to another person or whatever you think that you've got in the bag, come on. Like we know actually it's a moving thing and it's always, you know, so I feel like we want to secure ourselves by possessing, right? Maybe another person or things, objects. We've constructed that and and it's like this, you know, self-importance. Um and so it's really interesting that we are kind of like you say always relearning and maybe not always getting that lesson. Quite humbling, right? You know to think about it that way and even the feeling of bliss like in our in ourselves. You know what when we find a good feeling it's not going to be that way like endlessly. So it's going to change. Sometimes going to be really a good thing and then sometimes you're going to go through a passage that's maybe dark and that that's your next step you know. So you you're always going through, you know, it's everything changes sort of. RT: Yeah. Well, let's listen to this song. \[Austere bowed cello and clear vocals\] RT: I'm thinking of the antenna. Is that in the Kurt Vonnegut story? It also reminds me of you being on the roof with your radio! SJ: That's so funny. I never made that connection. I mean, that's amazing. Yeah. You know, I don't remember if it was in the story. I think maybe I came up with that. And it's interesting listening to this cuz this is an unmixed thing that we RT: It still sounds lovely. SJ: Oh, thank you. We've been doing it as a band. So, this was just duo. We've been doing it as a band. I was like, maybe we want to do a band version. Like, you know, my thought for the new record is to have like duos, trios, and quartets. So, not just like a monolithic band. RT: I could hear some drums in there. SJ: It would be kind of fun, right? Yeah. So, so we're kind of just we're kind of just pulling it together in a different way, a little bit more organic. RT: I'm excited about the new record. SJ: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I'm pretty excited. You know, I mean, you know what it's like. It's really like an amazing thing to do to be able to do, right? And it's like you have these songs which are like I don't know they they make themselves important to you and so you're compelled to see them through, right? RT: Yes. Yeah. I I think of just everything being in service of the song. It becomes almost its own being that requires you to place it into history in whatever way you can. SJ: Do you have something new coming out? RT: Yeah, I actually I have a record, my third record, but my first record to come out on vinyl. I recorded it over 10 years ago. So, it's been a long gap for me and I'm really It's really a big SJ: So exciting. RT: It's really a big thing to be able to put vinyl would be wonderful. So, you already have it printed on by, you know, I might have to show it to you here. SJ: It's gorgeous. The back is beautiful, too. RT: Yeah. So, the art was done by this incredible artist called Liz Downing, who's also a musician from Baltimore. Wow. And yeah, it's called The Little Wren, and it's my first It's my first vinyl. I'll put I'll put in the show notes also where you can get Serena's albums and and also my album. Maybe one day I'll I'll do a musical episode on the show. Maybe you can interview me. RT: Serena, I want to play one more song and ask you about one more song which was the one that really really gave me goosebumps. But before we do that, where can people buy your records? Can you tell us your website and how people can purchase music, see you live? SJ: So my website is serenajost.com. Jost is with a j and then you can find me on band camp under that same name. I have things on YouTube. I can stand a bit of housekeeping on YouTube. So updating things but in the next months I'll be doing that and then um you know I'm on all the platforms and then also actually I do want to mention if people want to sign up for a mailing list I'm on my website you can sign up and I I'm doing this piece recently I've been doing I did a piece called Bloom which is a stage choreography of song which is um song songs with movement that I've created and text that I wrote. So it's sort of like a stage evening of song about Bloom the which is really about the emergent moment of beauty that is bloom and what comes before and after it. So. RT: Oh that sounds agricultural and very much up my alley. Yes for this. SJ: Yes you can come. You can come and you know it's like and it's the band moves and we that's what we're working on right now is to find a theater for that. RT: Oh well please keep me posted. Yeah. Well, I'm I'm on your mailing list, so I'll be I'll be hearing about that. And congratulations on everything that you're working on. Is there anything else that you're working on right now besides the new album and that production? SJ: No, I guess like I'm writing, I am co-writing with some people which is newer for me and I'm really enjoying that experience. Speaking of letting go and not possessing things and just having an exchange with someone. So, that's really good. And I'm always, you know, either writing new songs or those songs are writing me. You know how that is like you work on a song and sometimes you have like a stack of drafts and then sometimes one of them comes and you have to write it down as fast or record it as fast as you can. So kind of in that space, you know, creation. RT: I can't wait to hear what's next. It's been really wonderful to, you know, I've always thought your music was beautiful, but it's been wonderful to listen a little more closely and and see the different types of arrangements that you've made and it's it's really a joy. SJ: Thank you. I appreciate your insight also. So I really appreciate and your lovely questions. RT: Oh, my pleasure. Yeah. So the other work in progress that you sent me is called St. John's. And you you mention your lyrics mention visions and dragons and an island and the word revelation. So of course I'm thinking about Revelation, the book of Revelation from from the New Testament. And so I'm not personally religious, but I have a lifelong fascination with the visionary part of the human experience, particularly the way it creates culture, like including local culture. But I also that connected with me because of another poet whose name I can't pronounce despite having studied it in college and having a poetry degree, which is here. You can help me. Look, it's German. SJ: Yes. Friedrich Hölderlin. RT: So this L not being an L is hard just because I liked it. I had a little fragment from from his work read at my wedding actually in in 2019 and it was from "Patmos" which is the the the same island as the... I'm just going to read a few lines from this if I can find it. Oh, here it is. \[reads\] Near is and difficult to grasp the god. But where danger threatens that which saves from it also grows. In gloomy places dwell the eagles and fearless over the chasm walk the sons of the Alps on bridges lightly built. Therefore since round about are heaped the summits of time and the most loved live near growing faint on mountains most separate. Give us innocent water, o pinions give us, with minds most faithful to cross over and to return. SJ: Wow. RT: So, another visionary. SJ: That's incredible. RT: But I also thought of that too because of the Alps. And we didn't really talk about the mountains. SJ: The mountains are magnificent and they're incredibly beautiful and inviting and rich and full of life and terrifying and dark and brutal and everything. you know, they give and they take, right? In at least in Switzerland, they did historically, a lot of different things would happen. But the mountains are like an orientation, you know, they when you have those shapes and you live in those shapes, it's really profound, you know. I mean, these days like as close as I can come to the mountain is the Empire State Building outside of my living room window. And I feel sometimes like okay it's a mountain. But the mountains, I mean you know Thomas Mann, do you know who that is? He's like a author who wrote about Davos and the mountains magic mountain is a famous terrifying thing but the mountains are incredible. The stones on the mountains are amazing. the views, the what it does to your vision, like you know, like you have like you're always looking at things and they're sort of close or in New York anyways, you're always hitting another right angle and in the in the mountains in Switzerland, you look out and you start to see more and more out and you feel your eyes opening and seeing further. So, you know, there's, you know, that everything the mountains are like all the jagged and magnificent thing and then the tiniest beauty like the mountain flowers that you have. RT: Oh, I love that so much. I went to Valtellina, which is a wine region in Italy, but on the border was Switzerland, and I just thought, "Oh my goodness, that's an Alp." I mean, they are big, very they're very imposing. And um and they are terrifying in a way, but it's also just an incredible beauty. And to make a life among on those steep places and in those extraordinary valleys, it's really special. SJ: It is special and you and like it's so nice that you got to go there and see that. You also realize why people like why Swiss people are like known for their preparedness because it's like you had to you know have a method to handle those, that environment right? so you had to you know but the beauty it's it's so cool that you went there. RT: Yes, it was amazing. And and there's going to be some more stuff coming to the Modo di Bere project about that adventure that my partner in the the TV show and I had in the mountains and in that wine region. SJ: Seems like maybe if you need an assistant like for drinking and for mountaineering. RT: Let's talk about this St. John's. Now, I jumped all over with my own references and thoughts about it. Is there anything you want to tell us about the song before you played? I just found it really striking. It just kept giving me this like physical reaction. SJ: Oh, thank you. Thank you. I mean, it is a tribute to St. John the Divine's Cathedral in Manhattan, which is a magnificent place. Architecturally huge. It remains unfinished. It has the cathedral itself that has an amazing social mission. They work with prisoners. There's, in the song there's a beautiful rose window that is there. And I guess some of what I was thinking about is the cathedral itself and I guess, humility before God, whatever God you want to talk about, whatever that means, godliness perhaps. And St. John the divine, you know, St. John had this vision. And then I thought of connecting it basically to the people of New York City and how it's this welcoming place to you know to people and it's part of our city and it actually is a welcoming place. \[cheerful bowed cello with austere vocals\] RT: We didn't really talk about the cello. SJ: Oh, that's true. RT: So, the cello, I think, has such a voice to it. In one of the other musical episodes that we did, I was talking to the multi-instrumentalist Amy Denio. I asked her if learning a new instrument was like learning another language, you know, and she said absolutely, you know. So, I just that's something about the the cello that almost I mean there's certain instruments that kind of feel like a human voice or that just you really feel like it's talking. I don't know. Maybe you could talk about that. SJ: Yeah, I mean I think totally the cello has that. I think a lot of people, you know, walk down the street, people stop me like, "Oh my god, I love the cello so much." You know, and I think it is that voice sounds like something and um I guess, you know, it has a huge range also. So, and it pairs well with the human voice. So, I really enjoy singing with the cello. It took me a while to learn how to do that because you don't have frets. So, there's a lot technically that's happening. It's quite different when you're singing with a guitar. You know, singing with the cello is like thing. And a cello it's like, you can pass lines back and forth between your voice and the cello, you know, in this really easy way. The cello is really versatile also. You can make it kind of rock out, you know, or you can be really mellifluous, like legato. So, it's a kind of the gift that keeps on giving, and it's just the one I have is from 1910\. Which is kind of special and it was found, you know, I was a vacation with my family and in the north part of Michigan and this school teacher who rented us this cabin had a cello. So he said, "You know, I have a cello in the basement." I was already playing. And you know, he was like, "I have this cello." So we went downstairs and there was this instrument wrapped in a green army blanket. And it was that's the cello that I have. Playing the cello is is a really rewarding in it's just a very rewarding instrument, you know. RT: And you teach as well. And do you teach remotely? SJ: I do teach remotely. I enjoy that. I teach every age. I have I also teach like songwriting. So I have teenagers from teenagers. I have an 80-year-old uh cello new cello student. So, and you know it's happening. RT: I love to hear that. SJ: Yeah. She's like you said it's never too Just keep on learning. RT: Never stop learning. Never stop learning. SJ: Yeah. So, and I I enjoy teaching a lot. Like my students are great. Great. So sign up if you've you've always wanted to learn the cello. You've always wanted to learn Italian, you can listen to the Italian version of the podcast or the Spanish version that's coming soon and you can listen to them side by side and see how much you understand and if you if you've been wanting to play the cello your whole life. Don't put it off. Just hire Serena. SJ: Yeah. Would love to meet you. RT: Yeah. Worldwide. So you can take take remote lessons. So you can they can contact you also through your website. Great. SJ: Exactly. RT: Okay. Serena Jost. Yes. Buy her albums. SJ: Thank you. RT: Stay in touch and and really thank you so much for coming on the show. It was an absolute joy. RT: Yes. Likewise. I loved it. Thank you. And thanks so much for your work. It's really special. Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. You're tuning in. You've got the the antenna to the to the whatever whatever divine thing creates songs from the just feels like it's always coming from the outside. SJ: And thank you. It's been such a pleasure to talk with you. really amazing. RT: Yeah. Well, I I look forward to to your next out recording and and thank you for putting these beautiful songs into the world. SJ: Thank you so much. RT: Thank you. Yeah. And thank you to all of our listeners. Wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Support us on Patreon. Grab the newsletter at mododibere.com and subscribe to the YouTube channel @mododibere to watch the travel show Modo di Bere TV. Music for the show was composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou. Purchase their music at the link in the notes. \[NOTE: **We are no longer using Patreon!** Become a member [right here](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e9-stefan-kisyov-the-hagiographer-glagolitic/#/portal/) to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\] > **SPANISH LEARNERS NEEDED!** *This episode is brought to you by Culture Without Borders Language Collective, our exclusive sponsor for the month of October 2025\. If you've been wishing for real people to practice your Spanish with, CWB is looking for more English-speaking Spanish learners to join their monthly language exchange.These online meetups are completely FREE for participants.* > > *Visit* [*cwbcollective.com*](http://cwbcollective.com/?ref=mododibere.com) *and subscribe to their newsletter to get the dates for the next meetup—including a bilingual wine tasting with Modo di Bere!* --- Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Inventing an Alphabet ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e9-stefan-kisyov-the-hagiographer-glagolitic/) [ 🍷 Friuli-Venezia Giulia ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e7-the-boot-in-20-friuli-venezia-giulia-paul-balke/) ### ▷S4E7 The Boot in 20: Friuli-Venezia Giulia, with Paul Balke URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e7-the-boot-in-20-friuli-venezia-giulia-paul-balke/ Last updated: 2026-08-31T02:30:25.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-it/s4e3/lo-stivale-in-20/friuli-venezia-giulia/paul-balke) Paul Balke's exuberant devotion to Italian wine regions bubbles up like a glass of prosecco—which, we learn in this episode, did not originate in Veneto, but rather in the village of Prosek, near Trieste. This special, double-size installment of **The Boot in 20** is a true deep dive. Even diehard fans of Friulian wines will learn indigenous grapes they've never heard of before. Those who listen to the end will win enlightenment regarding the world's most exciting slices of ham! **The Boot in 20** series features an interview with an expert on the wines of Italy's 20 regions. After hearing this episode, you'll understand the geopolitical history that leads Paul to insist on discussing the wines of Friuli-Venezia Giulia in context with the wines of western Slovenia and the Croatian wines of the Istrian peninsula. Inspired to plan a trip to this region? You must consult [Paul's beautiful book, ](https://paulbalke.com/books-music/books/?ref=mododibere.com)North Adriatic. You can order it from Paul directly at his website, where you can also learn about Paul's winemaking and piano music! Paul's website: paulbalke.com Follow Paul on Instagram: instagram.com/paulbalke > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQSNx9ID%5Foh/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQSNx9ID%5Foh/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQZsyxaALeU/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQZsyxaALeU/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQcPgB1AMBi/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQcPgB1AMBi/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) Note: Paul Balke currently lives in rural Calabria and we struggled with our connection and other technical issues. While the audio quality does not quite match our usual standards, we think Paul's incredibly educational perspective is worth it. If you have trouble catching any of the place names, or want a little assistance in following this meaty episode, please refer to the full list of chapter titles, with links to their time code in the YouTube video, and the full edited transcript (below). View Chapter Titles [0:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&ref=mododibere.com) Paul Balke, Italian wine expert [2:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=177s&ref=mododibere.com) North Adriatic wine regions [4:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=290s&ref=mododibere.com) The hills of Collio and Brda [6:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=382s&ref=mododibere.com) The harsh rock of the Karst [7:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=465s&ref=mododibere.com) The undersung Kvarner [8:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=480s&ref=mododibere.com) Collio and Brda border history [11:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=670s&ref=mododibere.com) A dreamy blue sky [13:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=810s&ref=mododibere.com) North Adriatic climate [15:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=930s&ref=mododibere.com) European cherry festival [16:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=983s&ref=mododibere.com) Why is it called Friuli-Venezia Giulia? [17:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=1030s&ref=mododibere.com) Colli Orientali, 🍷 from the plains [18:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=1094s&ref=mododibere.com) Refosco from Grave and Isonzo [19:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=1171s&ref=mododibere.com) Roman history in Aquileia [21:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=1311s&ref=mododibere.com) Ernest Hemingway in Friuli [22:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=1378s&ref=mododibere.com) Collio: Bordeaux of North Adriatic? [23:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=1432s&ref=mododibere.com) The story of Brda [25:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=1542s&ref=mododibere.com) Sponsor: Culture Without Borders [26:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=1563s&ref=mododibere.com) Vipava, the smiling valley [27:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=1642s&ref=mododibere.com) Indigenous grapes of the Karst [28:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=1698s&ref=mododibere.com) The lost vineyards of Trieste [28:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=1722s&ref=mododibere.com) The real history of Prosecco [30:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=1819s&ref=mododibere.com) Wine regions of Istria [31:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=1894s&ref=mododibere.com) The Malvasia grape family [34:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=2064s&ref=mododibere.com) Istria is wonderful [39:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=2390s&ref=mododibere.com) Who makes wine in Kvarner? [42:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=2538s&ref=mododibere.com) What does refosco taste like? [43:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=2635s&ref=mododibere.com) Schioppettino, a peppery red [45:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=2745s&ref=mododibere.com) Pignolo: the next Barolo? [48:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=2932s&ref=mododibere.com) Historic Ribolla Gialla [52:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=3129s&ref=mododibere.com) The orange wine movement [58:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=3518s&ref=mododibere.com) Picolit: an endangered style [1:00:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=3632s&ref=mododibere.com) Versatile Verduzzo [1:02:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=3729s&ref=mododibere.com) Drink more dessert wine [1:03:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=3822s&ref=mododibere.com) Ad for Culture Without Borders [1:04:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=3888s&ref=mododibere.com) What is Ponca soil? [1:08:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=4107s&ref=mododibere.com) How French grapes came to Friuli [1:11:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=4313s&ref=mododibere.com) The many names of Sauvignonasse [1:20:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=4802s&ref=mododibere.com) World-class Pinot Blanc in Friuli [1:21:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=4866s&ref=mododibere.com) The still Glera of Trieste [1:22:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=4944s&ref=mododibere.com) Adriatic Linguistic diversity [01:30:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=5455s&ref=mododibere.com) Slovenian prosecco labels [1:32:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=5568s&ref=mododibere.com) Friuli: the best chairs [1:33:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=5630s&ref=mododibere.com) Friuli: the best prosciutto [1:36:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=5765s&ref=mododibere.com) Friulian cheese intro [1:37:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=5829s&ref=mododibere.com): Don't miss Trieste [1:37:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=5848s&ref=mododibere.com) Gorizia and Nova Gorica [1:28:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=5281s&ref=mododibere.com) Historic Cividale [1:38:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=5923s&ref=mododibere.com) Grado, an older Venice [1:39:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=5981s&ref=mododibere.com) Hiking the Alps Adria trail [1:40:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=6044s&ref=mododibere.com) Slovenia is very sporty [1:42:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=6157s&ref=mododibere.com) Paul Balke speaks a lot of languages [1:43:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=6196s&ref=mododibere.com) Stop politics at the dinner table [1:43:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=6237s&ref=mododibere.com) Paul Balke’s wine travel book [1:46:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqDX3g80Pg&t=6396s&ref=mododibere.com) Outro **Edited autotranscript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript ### \[0:00\] Paul Balke, Italian wine expert PB: In Friuli you have the Italian quality of life. The quality of life is fantastic. Every day it's finished with a beautiful glass of wine in any place anywhere you are. And you can also be sure that there's a very high probability that you are in the sun because many time I came there I came from Piemonte and in Piemonte in the winter you have snow and rain and clouds and then you come in Friuli and there's the blue sky and the sun. RT: Welcome to Modo di Bere the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. Today I have a special edition of Modo di Bere, another installment of the Boot in 20 series where we go through each one of Italy's 20 wine regions with an expert in that region who is going to tell us everything that we need to know to begin to explore this region. Today we're doing a region that I really love, Friuli in northeastern Italy. And I want to introduce my guest who is here to take us through Friuli and the North Adriatic, which includes Western Slovenia and the area of Istria. I'm here with Paul Balke who is a journalist and wine lover who has published three books including the very beautiful North Adriatic. The book that I have been reading and really enjoying about the about this wine region. It is a absolutely gorgeous travel book. Everything that a wine and travel book should be. I've really been enjoying reading it and I'm really happy that Paul is here to speak with us. So Paul has written this book about the North Adriatic. He's also written a book about Piemonte and he's been he's originally from the Netherlands but he's lived in Italy for many years and is also like myself a musician, a music lover, a pianist and himself a wine maker. Paul, did I leave anything out that you want our listeners to know about your biography? PB: I think you hit the most important points. RT: Yes. Wonderful. Well, welcome, Paul. Thank you so much for being here with us today. PB: Yes. Really happy. RT: Wonderful. So, Paul and I met at the Vinitaly Wine Fair this spring of 2023 in Verona, and he handed me a copy of this very special, very lovely, large travel book, and I am so happy that we have the opportunity to speak with each other. ### \[2:57\] North Adriatic wine regions So, Paul, let's let's let's dive in and talk about the North Adriatic. I think it would be great for our listeners to just begin with the map. So we can talk about the Friuli region. So take us through the map of Friuli and the other parts of the what you're calling the North Adriatic to help us understand where we are geographically, please. PB: Well, maybe first you should tell the audience that I'm a very big Italy lover. I live in Italy and Italy is my favorite country and I enjoy Italy. I love the country, the people, the the culture, everything. When I am driving in Italy, I look for the the great food, the great wines, and I always enjoy meeting the people. They're very funny. They're great, and they can be really fantastic. So, what happens when I went to Friuli? In Friuli, I did my study. I studied the region. I studied also a lot of history. And I came across the the fact that when you see the eastern border of Friuli, you have to uh discover that this border is a bit artificial. Because after the second world war 1947, they had to make at some place some border where they was no border before and that's how the region uh was defined. And then you had Friuli and now the eastern part that uh before was in the same country is now um in three countries. So um I am going back to the to the original history of the wine region because the wine is the most important thing and not the other things because but in order to understand the wine you have to understand a little bit the history. ### \[4:50\] The hills of Collio and Brda So I started to drive around Collio which is a beautiful region in Collio and in Collio it's very easy to enter the border and to to what was formerly Yugoslavia and it's now Slovenia because in fact Collio has the form of a half moon shape and inside the half moon is the Slovenian part which is also part of Collio the part which is now called Goriška Brda. Both together are still one of the most important wine regions worldwide and that's one of the messages of my book is in the mid there is the the border that used to be the border between Italy and Yugoslavia and now is the border between Italy and Slovenia. This area near Gorizia in the past was the the most important wine region of the Hapsburg period of Austria of Vienna and still is a very important wine region and maybe it's not really on the radar of many people and I think the importance of this area needs to be understood well when you are in Collio you go to the west there's a large area it's called Grave there's a smaller area northeast of the town Udine is called Colli Orientali. Then you have, south, by the sea, you have some regions that are not very well known: Friuli Annia, Friuli Latisana, ### \[6:22\] The harsh rock of the Karst Aquileia, and Isonzo. And then you go to the east and you have a very special region in the area of Trieste, this is called the Karst. In Italian language it would be Carso. And the Karst also is totally different from the rest because it is karst, which means very heavy stones stony region difficult life conditions difficult conditions for growing anything also wine, but, anything. It is the same geological area that goes from around Trieste down to Greece the whole part of uh the the mountains So, Croatia, Montenegro, Albania to Greece is the same kind of karst area south of that area near Triest you have some small wine regions that is already Istria because Istria start in fact starts near Trieste there are several definitions of Istria you have one that is only Croatia but the real Istria is including also part of Slovenia and in fact also for the area of Muggia which is in \[the gulf of\] Trieste. ### \[7:45\] The undersung Kvarner So officially also a part of Italy is in Istria. To the east of Istria you have a large bay area. One of the most beautiful parts of Europe and one of the most special wine regions that they ever saw is the Kvarner area. Nobody knows about this and there is so much interesting thing to discover there. It's called Quarnaro in Italian or Kvarner in English. ### \[8:00\] Collio and Brda border history RT: That's fantastic. So, so tell me more about this artificial border. When and why was it created and what was the effect of its creation on this previously united wine region? PB: Well, you have to understand that the town of Gorizia has a very old history. Is a beautiful town. It has been part of the Austrian Empire for more than 1,000 years. And the the the the seat of Gorizia was also the the headquarter and the the the capital of the country that used to be a very big country and later it all became Austria. And the most important wine region in that period was a huge region of hills north of Gorizia. And it also included the hills to the east into what is now the power valley and also a small part of the karst to the south that was in a part in the past called the area of Gorizia. Then we we are speaking about the period before the 19th century. Gorizia remained very important until 1920\. So this whole wine area in that was was one country it was Austria. Then you had the first world war it became all Italy because everything changed. Then you had second world war and then they had to make the border between Italy and that was the most important point because then they had to make the borders around Gorizia and also south of south around Gorizia etc. And that was difficult because this very beautiful wine region which has a beautiful ambiance, beautiful culture, high quality conditions of life, high quality wines, it is already known for centuries. This area was then broken into two because of political reasons. And that's means that for a long period the part that became uh the Italian part is now called Collio and then you have some other parts too but let's speak about Collio because it's mostly important it became very famous the the people who lived at the other part of the border they were sometimes family relatives friends of the people in Italy but they lived in in another country in other political sphere so they could only sell their grapes to the cooperative because that was the socialistic system in Yugoslavia and they saw their friends and their relatives in Collio prosper because they became very rich companies and very wealthy and they became very important in Italy and worldwide. So it's understandable that the the wineries and the wine people in the east is a part of the border they as soon as Yugoslavia split up and the country became independent they they wanted to grow and they wanted to become important too and that's what we see what is happening now. ### \[11:10\] A dreamy blue sky RT: So Paul what was it about these wines that called to you? What was it about these this territory that called to you? I understand it was from the introduction of your book it was almost the area came to you in a dream. You speak of this special quality of light with the alpine breezes and the sea breezes mixing together and making this beautiful quality of light. I've experienced this myself when I visited this region in 2022\. So what was it that drew you to these wines and to this place? PB: There are many things in Friuli. You have the Italian quality of life. The quality of life is fantastic. Every day is finished with this beautiful glass of wine in any place anywhere you are. And you can also be sure that there's a very high probability that you are in the sun because many time I came there I came from Piemonte and Piemonte in the winter you have snow and rain and clouds and then you come in Friuli and there's a blue sky and the sun and that's a big difference and I tell the people in Friuli how fortunate they are because they have fantastic weather conditions. I I remember one time I came from Macedonia which is south in the Balkan it was minus 20 there and then we the next day we were in Friuli and at noon we are sitting outside having our lunch outside in the sun. It's it's much more north and still it's incredible because the the climate conditions in this area are very special. So the people uh who live there they do not know really how fortunate they are they are it's almost Mediterranean which is small touch of continental climate but uh this is this special condition is very special and that's also the main reason for the quality of the wines so you ask me about the wines what I like in the wines and what I liked from the start when you drink a wine from Collio from Collio Orientali or from some of the famous producers from Isonzo. They are very elegant, but these wines have also a minerality and a body which is very refined and and also very typical and recognizable that you don't find in other regions and that is so special. ### \[13:30\] North Adriatic climate RT: Tell me more about the climate and geography geology of this region in terms of wine growing conditions. PB: You have to understand that near three years you have the northern part of the Adriatic Sea which brings in the summer cool air into the area but in winter it keeps the region also warmer because the the the sea never becomes very very cool. And then a few kilometers north of course you will have already the Alps. In such a small distance you have the sea and the Alps. And this creates a contrast. It means every evening also in summer some cool air comes down from the Alps across the hills. And in the winter the cool air from the from the Alps is is met by the warm air from the from the Mediterranean. And this create also very special conditions. And it's only here because you have more places where uh you have uh mountains and sea below. I cannot really explain and maybe nobody can but it's a fact that this area has always produced olives more than wine. Olives is a sign that you have a very moderate climate otherwise you cannot have olives. And there have been always olives in this area. Only it stops north of Udine and north of Cividale. There you don't find any more olives because there stops because it's too cool. I remember being there in the spring and seeing the mix in Collio and Brda across the border, but really a shared wine region always. This mix on the hills of the grape vines, the olive trees, and the cherry trees in bloom in the spring. It's a beautiful site. It is beautiful and it also shows the the conditions of the area. ### \[15:30\] European cherry festival So they always say that Coro and Ba are territory of wine and cherries because in fact as you say the cherry is very important. They have also each year in the Brda area they have the huge um party for the cherries in Višnjevik. It's always wonderful to go there and and meet people and uh sometimes you drink a lot of wine, maybe a little bit too much, but it's okay. RT: So, let's talk a little bit about the different regions, maybe starting in Friuli and then going across the border into Slovenia down into Croatia. Just take us through the map moving from the western part of the Italian region known as Friuli-Venezia Giulia moving across into Slovenia and down into Croatia. Can you just take us through some of these wine regions and tell us about some of the wines that are made there and what they taste like, what they're like? ### \[16:23\] Why is it called Friuli-Venezia Giulia? PB: One remark about the name Giulia that's special. The word Giulia is from the Roman word Iulii because Julius Cesar who was here 50 before Christ he founded the town of Cividale there's also a big statue for him and since that period the eastern part of Friuli up to Trieste and south into Istria is called the the area of the Giulia. So the the the part of Venice that is the area of the Giuli so it would be in Venezia Giulia and of course in Italian sounds much more beautiful. ### \[17:10\] Colli Orientali, from the plains So that's Venezia Giuli. Um in fact you have uh different parts of the territory in Friuli. You have the flat part the plains and you have the hills. And here's something strange I would say because in Friuli many people think that the hills is the most important area and the flat planes are for the lower quality wines. And you see it because many of the lower priced wines and the the the the wines for big quantities and lower quality if they are produced in the flat area. But is it correct? I don't think it's correct because I think in the area of the Grave and also the Isonzo and even the Aquileia if you find the right spot and you work well you have conditions that are very similar to the top areas in Bordeaux and that's important and it means that um in such areas you can uh create very good wines and some of the producers are doing that ### \[18:14\] Refosco from Grave and Isonzo and the point is that many of the wine grape varieties from Bordeaux and from France have been introduced in this area that has another region. What you see is that in the Grave area and also in Izonso there are some fantastic producers making great Refosco. Refosco del peduncolo rosso is one of the special typical wines of this area. It's a great acidity, but it gives great wines if you allow the wine to ripen. One of the producers in Isonzo last year he showed me he opens a bottle of 20 years old for me. That was fantastic. It was ribolla, no refosco del peduncolo rosso, 20 years old. Such wines are one of the main stay of this area and you can find it all over the area, uh west of Collio. Collio remains the most important area west of Collio. So you have the big plane of the Grave, the Grave is uh an area with at least 8,000 hectares of vineyards with a lot of prosecco production a lot of ribolla gialla supmante production and as I said also some uh very interesting artisinal producers who make some really great stuff. ### \[19:31\] Roman history in Aquileia Down near the coast, you have one area that is very special. That's called Aquileia. Do you know Aquileia? Have you been there? RT: I have not. PB: Oh, that's a pity. That's a big pity. You have to know that in the Roman Empire, Aquileia was one of the four most important towns of the Roman Empire. Why? Because here the Romans, they they founded this town 180 before Christ. And it was one of the most important towns until 500 after Christ. So it was very very long period important and it's you can find very interesting stuff there. You should go there and look what they find in fields and it's a wine area and they have the very famous Refosco di Scodovacca, which is special clone of the Refosco wine which is made in the area of the Aquileia. And I also find some producers one of them made some study in the United States too and he went back and now he produces one of the best Malvasias I tasted. He is a guy in Aquileia. Very interesting. And I like to uh point out these things because a region like Aquileia is not not very well known. Um people drive on the highway just go to Collio and don't stop in Aquileia. It's a pity. So I I would like to point out the jewels that you can find there. East of Aquileia you have the area of the Isonzo. Isonzo is the famous river. Maybe you know about a certain American writer called Hemingway. I indeed he was there and he wrote about the Isonzo in his book Farewell to Arms. Did you know that? RT: That's wonderful. ### \[21:51\] Ernest Hemingway in Friuli PB: The book is very interesting. Just before because of this uh this history actually Hemingway did not really fight in the war in the book something like that is suggested. It it does not matter at all. I think it's very important that he wrote this book and I think it's very important that this book gives us another insight especially separate from the history books because this book gives you a feeling of what the war was and what how the territory came and it gives an insight in very special part of the history of this region. So Hemingway did a good thing and Hemingway went back to Friuli also later and as I understand he remained very often in Lignano Sabbiadoro and there is even a statue for Hemingway in the park near the near the sea. In the east of Friuli you have two big hill regions. One is Collio and the other one is Colli Orientali and in Colli Orientali you can find so many lovely wines, fantastic producers, small producers, big producers, uh people with long family history, people who are totally dedicated to make the best of their small parcels that they can make. And it Colli Orientali is really a fantastic region. Did you know that? RT: Yes. Yes. I've enjoyed many wines from from Colli Orientali. PB: Absolutely. Yes. Have you been also in the area of the Ramandolo? ### \[22:58\] Collio: Bordeaux of North Adriatic? RT: So the trip that I took was pretty much exclusively right along the border in the the Italian Slovenian border in the region of Collio and Brda. PB: Yeah, it's logical because um what you see. In Bordeaux people go to Pauillac and Margaux, in Piemonte they go to Barolo, in Tuscany you go to Montalcino, and in Friuli you go to Collio and Brda. That's something like normal it's logical because maybe the most prominent area of this whole area of North Adriatic is the area of Collio and Brda. What you have to tell about this region is that it's absolutely fantastic. It's, as you already said, it's a wonderful region to see the climate and also the ambience of these soft rolling hills is really very beautiful. It's attractive and you want to return. It's romantic. And what you maybe have noticed is that in the parts of Slovenia, many wineries are still young wineries. ### \[23:52\] The story of Brda They're still building up their company. They're building up their wines. They're building up their terroir. Many vineyards in that part are maintained in a way that is not seen anymore in Italy because they have only wood. It's more organic. It's more different in grape and it's is more untouched. So there's more unspoiled nature and that's I think very positive. RT: I visited the cooperativa the cooperative in Brda. Was very impressed by the Klet Brda operation and also with the history of how now what is perhaps more more recognizable or valued in the wine world are individual labels and brands. But sometimes the history of a strong cooperative can I've I'm learning give a consistency historically so that the the vineyards remain vineyards and there is an economy and the without being interrupted by other kinds of industrialization or these kinds of things. Does that make sense in my understanding? PB: Yes not only that it was also not really a market economy. So there was no stress, there was no idea to to produce big quantities. It was very rural. There was no dedication to quality or studies. It was um very old style and it remained very old style for a long period and that's to their benefit. Sometimes now it's changing and you see some of the vineyards in that part are now also treated in other way but still the the really the region works very authentic and the wines and the wines are great in that part. ### \[25:42\] Sponsor: Culture Without Borders RT: I went out on my Brooklyn fire escape to tell you about this month's sponsor Culture Without Borders Language Collective. You might remember my interview with co-founder Lindsay Szper from season 1\. Later in this episode, I'm gonna tell you about a free opportunity to improve your language skills. Let's talk a little bit moving into Istria, Croatia, and then this Kvarner region. ### \[26:03\] Vipava, the smiling valley PB: We should not leave out the region Vipava. Vipava is lovely. They call it the smiling valley. When they call it the smiling valley, it means there is something that gives you a good feeling. And that's my first impression when I go there. It is it feels good. It is an area with a lot of small local farmers. Many who are doing just on tiny plots of four or five hectares. They do their best to make some great stuff. And they do. They have some authentic grape varieties like the Zalen, the Klarnica and the Pinella. And they have a lot of other wines too. By the way, Pinot Noir and also Sauvignon Blanc go great in that area. And you have some very good top producers there. And apart from that, you can you have very very good restaurants in the area. It is very rural. So you are in a wine region you feel like you are in Austria 100 years ago and that's a special feeling. So that's about the Vipava. ### \[27:22\] Indigenous grapes of the Karst And Vipava is bordered on one time on one side on by the Alps on the other side by the high mountains of the Karst and then we enter the Karst. The Karst is very much a Slovenian speaking region except the town of Trieste. In Trieste it's a small minority and the whole area has not many vineyards because it's very tough to make wines in that area but the guys do who produce something make very authentic and great stuff of the local variety Vitovska and also Malvasia and also Teran. The Karst is also one of those areas you should go there take your time take a bicycle and go visit some wineries with your bicycle and you will have a great time. Trieste is also interesting. Last year I visited Trieste and only 3 kilometers from the center of this very important town you have the first vineyards and there they told me that ### \[28:18\] The lost vineyards of Trieste until 70 years ago the town of Trieste did have 1,500 hectares of vineyards and now there is maybe 10 or 12 left. It's all gone because people need to have space for their houses and some of the steep hills of Prosecco have also left because uh today it's too costly to produce wines on those places. ### \[28:42\] The real history of Prosecco Besides the word "prosecco," where is the word prosecco coming from? It's the small village near Trieste. This is called Prosek. It's called to the Count Prosek who started to make wine in that area because he was the local count and there is the that's the origin of the name, Prosek. 200 years ago the name Prosek was not a wine wasn't even a sparking wine the name prosek was one of the wines that were sold in Venice and in Venice they when you would go to a tavern in Venice in the 18th century they would sell you malvasia, ribolla, or prosek. Those were the three important wines and they could be the same wine they only gave the name to something that was commercially available. So for example in the area of Collio for about a period of 200 years they produced the wine prosek, probably it was made by 10 or 12 different varieties from the local vineyards, but it was called prosek just because in Venice you can sell it. So prosek was a commercial name in the past and it be it's still now it's a commercial name and now because they use the name also for the grape variety the grape variety glera has become named also as prosecco, but the name was originally a place near Trieste. That's the whole story. RT: That is fascinating. PB: It has to do with the the story or the history of this area because this area has a fantastic history. It's it's it was very cruel sometimes in the past, but it's very important to realize and to know it. And you want to know about Istria? RT: Yes, I do. ### \[30:19\] Wine regions of Istria PB: Istria is divided into a very large big part in Croatia. And there is a smaller part in in Slovenia. In the part in Slovenia is also a very beautiful hill part. They have the same kind of soils like Collio but it's smaller. It's very much populated. So you have many houses just located near the vineyards a big town the time of Koper the biggest coastal town of Slovenia. And in Slovenia they have 1,800 hectares in a very tiny space. All of Istria is about 3,000 hectares of vineyards. But when you will see the map you would not believe it because Croatian part is looking much bigger and uh it has to do with the fact that the part of Slovenia is very intensely used for vineyards. Also there you have a very big cooperative that is not yet not anymore a cooperative but still has very dominant position in the area and you have some very good local producers and ### \[31:34\] The Malvasia grape family the main wines there are the refosk \[refosco\] and the malvazija \[malvasia\]. Maybe just one word about the malvasia grape. Malvasia is the name of a grape variety you hear from everywhere from you hear from Tuscany there's Malvasia there are at least four different varieties called Malvasia that you can find in Piemonte. Two of them are red. Then you have Malvasia in Umbria. You have Malvasia in Calabria. You have Malvasia on the islands near Sicily. In totally they say that maybe there are 80 different types of grapes that grow Malvasia. It's a big confusion. This is what you call confusion. And the Malvasia from this part is called Malvasia. But it has nothing to do with all the other grapes. It's totally different. They have also found the genetical basis and there also there is clearly no relation with the other grapes. So that's this Malvasia is original from this area. They don't know it's original from Trieste or from Istria from Collio. But the interesting thing is that you can find this grape variety all over the area. So you can go from far to Istria to three years to the Karst the Collio to Udine, Pordenone, the malvasia you find everywhere because this grape is one of the big main states of the area and it goes well everywhere. Is it known as malvasia istriana in Italy? Yes but it's there's not a strange thing it's still known like that people will know what you're talking about but in in Friuli they did not allow anymore to put it on the label and I that only makes more confusion because people don't know that this grape is not identical to other malvasias. The name Malvasia would be better to identify the grape variety. Although we do not know exactly the origin of the grape. The first the first mention of the grape was in 1894 when one winery from Zagreb from Croatia got medal for some malvasia from Istria. It means that the grape has been produced for some time in Istria in that period. But we we knew that in that period there was no border and we know that grapes and and grapes and plants were always distributed over a wider area. So where is the real origin of this grape variety? I don't know and nobody knows. RT: So it's hard to figure out exactly what the right name is, but we know that it's good. It's it's malvasia from this north Adriatic area and it's a delicious— PB: It's a wonderful wine but not only from Istria also from Collio and also from Pordenone you can have wonderful wines from everywhere. RT: So tell me more about the characteristics of the regions in Istria and then going down into Kvarner which I I would love to become more familiar with. ### \[34:24\] Istria is wonderful PB: Istria is such a territory when you go there you have to make your agenda plain because you never know when you're going to leave because it's so wonderful. This area is really it's I think it should compete with Tuscany because maybe it's even more beautiful. It is very authentic. It has wonderful places, great wines and so great to be there. So Istria is one of the most wonderful places of Europe. We can say that without any doubt. The area is divided from north to south. You have the the the coastal area and the coastal area has many beautiful Venetian towns like Poreč especially Rovinj. Rovinj is is a jewel! It's it's a town that is one of the most beautiful places that you can see and all these towns were in the past also wine centers still now important. You have the big agricultural institute which was founded in the time by by the emperor from Vienna because it was all Austria one time. Istria has this characteristics. So the the the the coastal area of Istria, of course, it's very touristic right now, but still very beautiful. Has also a lot of vineyards. It's it's alternation of vineyards and small villages with this beautiful church stops and then some olive vineyards uh olive yards and then to the east slowly it goes up and in the east you have one mountain about 1,400 m and you have quite mountainous region there and it's very strange to know that the most cold place the coldest place Croatia in winter is in central Istria. It's not in the east near Hungary or so. No, it's here because here it can be very freezing. So at the coast it can be minus one and in interior it can be minus 10 and still now you have always climate different but the best wines of are on the higher parts. So you you have to take the road from Poreč or Rovinj you go to the east and it goes very slowly. So it goes it takes 10, 20, 30 kilometers to to go to a higher place. Um very gradually and this area is so wonderful and here you have also some of the best wines from the north. RT: This region of Kvarner. PB: Yes. But Kvarner is a totally different story. By the way, nobody knows even that there is any wine at all because it's more known for tourism. The Kvarner area is one of the first places for development of tourism in Europe. The first hotel for tourists was built in the Kvarner. Nobody knows this. That was because it was all Austria. And in the past, I think in the 17th and 18th century, the richest family from Austria, from Vienna, they were of course aristocrats, the counts and the princes. They built some houses near the town of Plavje and that became a place where they started to live part of the winter when it was very cold in Vienna and here it's very moderate moderates and um so that is the first kind of development of tourism. Then during the 19th century there came a new kind of rich people in the Hapsburg Empire. There the were the people who had industry, the rich merchants from Vienna but also from Prague and other places and they wanted that those people go to another place because they should not interfere with the princes and the counts in the aristocracy. For that reason they built hotels on the island of Krk and that was the start of the tourism and it was the start of the wine industry. Still now on that island of Krk which is a small island you can drive around in maybe two hours I don't know it has more than 4,000 hectares of vineyards. They're huge. And most of these vineyards are abandoned you have to go in this this the center and it's a karst area because it is geologically speaking it's part of the Karst region so the stones and the walls from the Karst you find over here. Many of the vineyards in the central part of Krk are all walled. So they they are about 100 square meters or 200 square meters maybe sometimes one acre or two acres or three acres and then they are all walled with the local stones and you find huge fields of these stone walls with vineyards and nobody's using them because it's too expensive for commercial production. But the wine is there. You can go there and pick up the grapes when you want. Of course, it will be September when the grapes are maturing. But there for anybody who wants to pick some grapes in the nature, you can go there. And 4,000 hectares is really a lot. This is very big. ### \[39:50\] Who makes wine in Kvarner? RT: So who is left making wine in Kvarner today? PB: You have about 200 hectares on the island Krk near the town of Vrbnik and they make a very special wine of the local grape Žlahtina. Žlahtina is one of the most refined white wines you can find. It's it's elegant. It's it's light. It's it's a party wine. You will enjoy it. You should try it. It is it's it's not heavy at all. It's just so light and so so easy drinkable. It's really very very wonderful wine. You have an also another found—one of the most important findings for me really a gem that I think is will become important in the future is local grape from an island on the western part of Kvarner. So when you see the the Kvarner area you can see that inside the bay you have some very large islands. One of them is Cres and the other one is Lošinj. Mali Lošinj and and Veli Lošinj or Lussino in the Italian language. And there to the left you see two small islands and the most western island is a sandy island of 200 hectares. It's in fact a sandy field in the sea and that was the in the past the most important Venetian port of this area. It was so the the old structure of the Venetians is still left there and the Venetians have built vineyards all over that that island with a local grape and that local grape is called Sansigot and I think this grape it can give so wonderful wines. It is one of the most important discoveries that I have done recently. I think this wine will be a future new nebbiolo or pinot noir, something like that. So that's very big word. RT: That's wonderful. I had never heard of that before. Yes, I can't wait to find one and try it. PB: We have done some tastings and some of the local wineries now are giving a lot of attention to this grape and there are now coming in. follow this grape and uh in the next few years we will have some more producers coming out with great wines. It is going to be very interesting. ### \[42:18\] What does refosco taste like? RT: Let's talk some more about grapes starting maybe with some of the red grapes of this general region from from anywhere. We talked about refosco. Can you tell me about some of the qualities of wines made from refosco? PB: The refosco is a big family. You have several types of refosco and already the fact that it's a big family and that you have several clones several or typologies of this grape variety means that it's authentic in this area. It's very tannic and it has a very high acidity but has a lot of character. So it has a very cool mouthfeel and when well made you can have a very long lasting wine that leaves you a a long lasting impression and that's wonderful. The only thing is when it's young it's too aggressive. So the wine needs time to mature and to harmonize and then it can be a very long lived wine and it can age for for 20 years or 30 years. The only problem is that is not yet that much discovered. We know Cabernet Sauvignon that is very much discovered in the world and Nebbiolo from Piemonte. But refosco should be more discovered, I think. RT: I completely agree. I I have a very pleasant memory during my my trip to Collio where the conditions there um in the hills are very nice for the white wines. I went to lunch in Cormons. It was a beautiful day and I had a glass of refosco with my lunch and I I just find it to have so much character. PB: It is a wonderful character. Yes. ### \[43:55\] Schioppettino, a peppery red RT: There's another red grape that we haven't talked about yet which is more of a less tannic a little bit lighter red that I like a lot. Schioppettino. PB: Schioppettino. That is a very typical grape. Schioppettino is mostly planted in the eastern hills of Friuli and there is also a Slovenian name for it. Not sure if you know that it's Pokalca. It means that the grape variety is already very old and it was all always placed in that area. The bunches are very big. They can become 40 cm top down and that's very big and that was the reason that many serious wine producers thought that this this grape cannot be serious. I think the answer is in drinking the wine. The the wine can be marvelous and this grape is really getting serious now and you have especially in the Prepotto area in the eastern part of the Colli Orientali you have a small side where they, where they have a lot of Schioppettino and there this grape really grows very well. It has this very special peppery character. It can be a bit smooth but still with peppery small and refined tannins. So it's not very tannic but there is tannin and it remains, it keeps the wine also the possibility to to age and to be more wonderful wine and I also like those wines. I think the most important and the most serious wines are the wines that can age and uh Schioppettino is such a wine. So it has become really a main stay. Especially in the Prepotto area in the eastern part of Colli Orientali. I'm very sure that in the past Schioppettino was also present in Collio but uh unfortunately you won't find much left in Collio that's a pity. RT: It has to me also this beautiful purple color. ### \[45:45\] Pignolo: the next Barolo? PB: The color can be quite uh quite dark and when you speak about purple color I would say let's speak about Pignolo. Did you also taste Pignolo? RT: I have tasted a Pignolo in my life. I don't I didn't taste one at any of the wine producers that I visited in Friuli \[as of 2022\]. PB: They say it's the Barolo from Friuli. Well, that's a bit exaggerated. But it's a very important wine and Pignolo has more austere character. It's very full body but also very tannic. It's it's more complete. So the schioppettino is a bit into this peppery character and but some people say the most important austere wine from Friuli is the Pignolo and I agree. In the past you had one producer he started to revive this variety he was near Buttrio in the Colli Orientali area it's the most warm part of Colli Orientali where the hills go down in the in the in the flat area he started to produce three different varieties of Pignolo and started to communicate with the world. And I remember that I one time had lunch with him and I never had such an impressive lunch like with this man. He was so passionate about the Pignolo grape and how important that was very very interesting. RT: The white grape that people talk a lot about and that I really love. PB: By the way, two two minutes have passed. His name is Dorigo. Dorigo was was that wine maker. RT: Yes. I love it when I meet someone who is so passionate about sharing a natural product, a piece of history, a piece of culture with the world. Are there any other red grapes that we should speak about before moving into Ribolla Gialla and other white wine grapes? PB: We just spoke about the Sansigot and I think the Sansigot is not yet discovered. Many people don't know nothing about it but I think Sansigot is one of the most important grape varieties in the future of this area. So that's that's something yes there are some other important red grapes but they are in very planted in very tiny quantities. You have on the Karst you have the Teran which is variety from the refosco family. It's even more tannic and more aggressive with acidity and they say that it was already planted there since the Roman time. We don't know that. In the north of Friuli you have a small area where some producers still use to produce Sciaglin, Picolit Neri, Cordenossa, Fumat and other grape varieties that you never heard about and it's great because in this way these grape varieties still go go on to be produced and I think that's also important. RT: Yes, I care about that a lot. PB: The world cannot be only Merlot and Chardonnay and Cabernet. ### \[48:52\] Historic Ribolla Gialla RT: Yes, even as some of those international grapes do find a long and wonderful home in this region. Let's keep talking about the indigenous grapes. Shall we switch to the white grapes? Shall we speak about the wonderful white variety ribolla gialla? PB: Ribolla gialla is treated as the \[inaudible\]. It's typical of this area although there are several theories about how it originated here. I remember that one time they bombarded me with emails with documents from the 14th century from the Collio and the Brda area saying that there was sales of a vineyard with ribolla gialla and this proves that ribolla gialla already existed in in 1400\. The point is that it's not possible because in that period people were never speaking about wine grapes and grape varieties they spoke about wines. And a wine is something different because in that period every wine was made from a vineyard and that vineyard had made five was made of five or 10 or 20 different grape varieties. So the fact that the name was going around does not say nothing about grape variety. I think that the the origin of the ribolla gialla is the same like chardonnay. Chardonnay we know that it was created as a crossing in one of the monasteries in Burgundy and by the way the father of the grape variety chardonnay is also the father of the ribolla gialla. So they have the same father so they family and the other grape the other father they don't know they are still researching the genetics etc it's a very long search but I think it's very clear that the origin of the grape is in this area. It is a wonderful variety although I am not saying it's the best variety because that's something very different it's very typical in for example when you would talk about Collio or Brda or Colli Orientali or even Vipava. One of the most typical varieties of those areas is ribolla and in Slovenia they call it rebula but it's the same word. It has a very high acidity. It has full body and it can age wonderfully. It has not very strong aromas. It's not an aromatic variety which for me is one of the reason that I say it can also be very useful for blending. But you can have very good ribolla giallas that are fantastic and some of the most important producers of the area are really pointing on ribolla gialla. So it's an important variety because of that. RT: It's very versatile. No? You... it's made into many different styles. PB: Of course, but you can also have a fantastic uh ribolla gialla spumante. I prefer ribolla spumante above prosecco much better. And that's that's my preference. You have very elegant light wines that you should drink on a terrace in the summer or with fresh fish. ### \[52:09\] The orange wine movement Then you have the more austere strong varieties of the the wine ribolla gialla aged sometimes aged also in wood and the wine goes and then you have the the orange wine movement but the orange wine movement is separate part. We should speak about it because what what happened in in certain way some producers in this area wanted to go back to the past read the books and heard the stories from their grandfathers about how they made wine in the past. In the past the people in this area did not have tanks with temperature control techniques in the cellar filter techniques etc. They were not existent. So what they did they made a wine in the in the cellar. Very often I have to tell you the wine was a blend of several grape varieties. That is what sometimes the producers forget to tell you. I think they should tell this because it's the truth. And nowadays we can make a wine of one grape. In the past it was not very useful. The producers like Gravner and Radikon started to age the wine not in barrels but in amphoras or in barrels. But not only age, they fermented the wine and produced the the white wine in the same way as a red wine. The white wine stayed in contact with the skins and matured in the same way as the red wine. What do you get? You get a totally different wine. And it means the wine has had more oxidation. So some of the perfumes of a white wine are left, are gone. But in the mouth you have more strong notations of orange, some fattiness, nuts, almonds, very strong taste and they can be almost a red wine. The critics of this wine say the wine is dead. And I have been sometimes present of discussions between producers in Collio. And that those discussions were very heavy and um some people that were friends are not friends anymore because the discussions about the wine style. It can happen. And they said your wine is dead. You had all the oxidation and everything that is nice in a wine has gone. And the other set: "It's the wine that your grandfather made too." And um then I I think the truth is in the middle. Uh I think the the area of Friuli and especially the two big producers Gravner and Radikon have done a very big thing which they could have created a movement that is now followed worldwide. Right now you find orange wines everywhere in Australia, South Africa, in United States maybe in Northern Europe you find them everywhere. Even in the Netherlands, some producers are making orange wines right now. And I'm very happy with the name orange wine because I'm Dutch and we in the Netherlands, we have this link with orange because our king is from Orange in France. So we we have our identity with "orange." So I like the the the name orange wine for the wine. RT: I think about is how people do understand these places where orange wine was made all along in the country of Georgia. Now that orange wine is made everywhere that has become popular and a whole new color and style of wine. I love for people to discover that this area of the North Adriatic, Friuli, Northern Italy, Slovenia, Croatia was also an area where perhaps the technique was not as unbroken as in the country of Georgia, but where the orange wine style was indeed ancient and traditional and was rediscovered and brought back and really popularized around the world by these producers such as Gravner and Radikon. It's such an interesting story and I also find a lot of character as far as the people who initially perhaps in the wine critic wine industry who were skeptical of the return of this style. I think that if you're looking for what you would find in a white wine, you won't find it. Well, we could say it's apples to oranges perhaps. Although I like to remind people that just because the the name orange wine, it doesn't mean that there are any oranges inside. It is referring only to the color. So I think when you compare the orange wines to each other and you can especially see I think terroir a connection with the place in the sense of this wine making tradition going going back and to these people rediscovering the wine making techniques of their grandfathers which is something that I just find wonderful. There was one other type of wine that I hadn't heard of before I visited Brda and it was a type of wine not like a retsina but where they actually put some herbs inside to the barrel as it was aging and explained to me that this was traditional. Can you speak to that style? I found it to be very interesting. PB: I do not know much about this variety but I know that such very ancient techniques are very common in the Mediterranean wine area. So in um in many areas in the Mediterranean, you find kind of wines that are produced with with dried in grapes or herbs in the in the in the vine. It's in Greece. Greece is not far very far from this place. And as I told before, the town of Aquileia did have contact with Greece. It's common but I have to tell you it's not very common in Brda. So um no the in in Brda the there in fact there are two very important wine styles. There's a conventional wine style of fresh white wines and you have the orange wine style. RT: What about the wines that some some grapes that are used to make the sweet wines? Should we speak a little bit about that? ### \[58:38\] Picolit: an endangered style PB: There is one great variety that is absolutely outstanding and it is... but I find a big pity that the production has really gone down that's Picolit. Picolit is a grape variety that's originated in this area in Friuli probably in the Colli Orientali but they don't know exactly it could be also in the vineyards of Isonzo, they have very old vineyards in this area and the point is this wine is is the the the plant is ill because the plant never gives complete grapes bunches. They are always a bit loose. Some bunches don't—do not ripen, and so the plants have very low production. And the production of the remaining grapes is fantastic because they give an intensity of flavors and they give an elegance and perfume that is really very special. The the grape variety is called picolit and you'll find it in Brda in Collio in Colli Orientali and it's still there. There are still produces going on and some producers use it also as a dry version in a mostly in the blended variety. I've also found producers who made a dry white wine out of it. It it's it's still very interesting. The blended versions I think it's more interesting because the wine really gives something extra to another wine. So it makes the wine more productive. And then you have some sweet wines and the sweet wines are made with dried-in grapes from picolit. And they are among the best sweet wines in the world. They're really very very intense. They have an elegance. They have a freshness. They don't die. They never die. You can put the bottle in your cellar for 100 years. The wine remains. ### \[1:00:32\] Versatile Verduzzo RT: I love picolit. Yeah. What about verduzzo? PB: Verduzzo is another very interesting grape variety also authentical from this area and also here it's pity that the popularity is going down. The grape has a lot of character, a very thick skin which is very important to to keep it healthy and in fact it's it's very how do you say it does not get affected easily by illnesses. So it is very protected and it's more produced in north of uh of the Colli Orientali area but it was always present also uh in other parts of North Adriatic in Aquileia in the Karst in the Grave area and also sometimes in Veneto. It can also give very light frizzante wines with a light bubble and a light freshness and some some sweetness. But the most important person is the Ramondolo. Ramondolo is a famous wine made of dried-in grapes of verduzzo and only made from the steep hills near the town Ramondolo and Nimis one hour north of Udine is the most northern part of the whole wine region. It's very close to the Alps. It's just the hills are on the south mountains of the Alps and also there we see the decline because the production is really going down because uh there's one big problem the market for sweet wines worldwide is going down and that's a fact unfortunately it's a pity. I think it's so sad. ### \[1:02:09\] Drink more dessert wine RT: It was something I myself didn't discover until I became a student of wines and really interested in it as soon as I learned about historic and precious process that is used to make what is called on an American wine list dessert wines. I was completely fascinated and of course tasted them and saw that I wish the market could will come to understand that a wine that is sweet of low quality maybe tasty but not you know something that you would get for under $10 perhaps is so very different from one of these wines that is made from dried grapes or late harvest or so many different ancient techniques. I I really hope that it becomes part of the dining experience for for people again. I have faith there's so many things that have been added and and discovered and rediscovered by consumers just in recent years. Orange wines among them that this could become something that people rediscover. I'd love to do more about it on the show as well. They're so precious and delicious and and fascinating and I want them to not die out for the tradition to continue with with the production so low because there's so little liquid left. It's something that's precious. It's a special occasion. It's something that you know maybe you don't drink every day, but hopefully you do drink it as part of your experience. ### \[1:03:42\] Ad for Culture Without Borders All right, I'm back on my fire escape to tell you about how my interview with Lindsay Szper with Culture Without Borders in season 1, episode 8 and nine really changed my whole language learning game. Just hearing about Culture Without Borders' philosophy that the best way to learn language is through friendship helped me relax a little bit, which is really important. And it turns out, as I learned from Lindsay, people don't learn very well when they're feeling stressed out or put on the spot. Since that first conversation, I've been able to attend a number of Culture Without Borders gatherings, both online and in person, and I've met a lot of really nice people while improving my Spanish. Culture Without Borders is looking for more English-speaking Spanish learners to attend their free monthly online language exchange. So go to cwbcollective.com and sign up for their newsletter for more details on how to attend. ### \[1:04:48\] What is Ponca soil? Tell me about the soil in this region. What is special about the soil? PB: For understanding the soil of this region, it will be good to have a look at the map. One of the maps that we put in my book, uh if you take it, you will see in the east there are lines of mountains. They're the highest parts are dark brown and you can discover some very straight lines from the area north of Udine straight in a diagonal line across Collio, Vipava, until beyond Rijeka and down to Croatia. In some places when you go there you can really see the mountains because it's straight and it means there is a geological area that's completely top and and formed by the stones area of the Alps in the Karst both the Alps and the Karst and until from the part sea there was always the the sea that came and and created some erosion on the on the area where the water met the stones and that created a kind of area that's called Ponca. And ponca is one of the most wonderful soils that you can have for wine making. There is maybe no better soil. And the whole area from the north of Colli Orientali then Collio and Brda and then Vipava and then is made of ponca. There's also a small part near Trieste that's ponca in fact right the town of Trieste is built on ponca and the area around is karst. So it's a different geological situation and in the east south of Rijeka you have the town Novi Vinodolski in also there along the coast you can find spots with ponca. It's the same soil you can find it's about 100 kilometers southeast is the same soil as Collio. So logically there the word vino is already in the name we know Vinodolski it means "hills wine." It is a very useful hill for wine because the the the soil is stony mineral and it's easy to break. You can take apart of the stones in your hands. You can break it in two. So it means that the grapes the rootstocks can go down in the soil and and get some water. They have lower production than in other places and the grapes get better. So it it is in short words one of the best conditions for high quality wines. ### \[1:08:27\] How French grapes came to Friuli RT: I myself have crumbled a piece of ponca in my hands in Friuli and it was a lovely wine geology experience. Let's speak a bit—I I adore and champion indigenous grape varieties. It's what made me fall in love with the wide variety of Italy. But let's speak a little bit about the so-called international grapes which are French grapes that became international. Very popular planted all around the world and with good reason. They're great grape varieties. Certain varieties here have quite a long history. Merlot, Sauvignon Blanc, especially, Chardonnay. My understanding is that perhaps because of the ponca soil that they find a unique expression in this in this area. I often say to someone who is a fan of one of these wine varieties that they should try one from Friuli because there's a different sort of expression. Could you speak a little bit to that? PB: First you spoke about Merlot. You should know that Merlot is in Bordeaux area rather recent. The first official document about merlot in Bordeaux is about 1824\. So it was registered as one of the official grapes in the registers of Bordeaux. Less than 50 years later you find merlot in many places in the north Adriatic. This means that after Bordeaux the first region in the world where merlot was grown is this area between Friuli, Istria and west Slovenia: the north Adriatic. So that's important. That's important. It it also means that merlot grows fantastic here and it's true. The moderate conditions here are a little bit different. Uh we are Collio and are more or less on the same latitude as Bordeaux but the conditions are different. It's a bit warmer— in Bordeaux you have no olives but here you have that's an indication that it is a bit warmer. Um but merlot grows fantastically. In some places also cabernet grows fantastically. What you should know is that um this whole area was Austrian and what happened in 1850 they had the first big wine disease. It was 1850 was the oidium. Oidium came. There was no remedy. They did no not have a solution. RT: Can you explain what uh what oidium is? PB: Oidium is a disease in the plant that arrives in hot summers especially in dry summers and it arrived for the first time in this area in 1850\. I don't know how to describe the disease more clearly. It's it's like that. The point is that the the grapes and the the plants had no experience with the disease and also not the Austrians. So they they were in they were terrified because this area is the most important wine area for Austria. Austria was a big empire and the empire needs wine and if the most important and biggest wine region of the empire cannot make wine that's a problem. So that problem occurred and what did they think? Um let's import some grapes, grape varieties from France because they make best wines. If we put them here, we can make grape wines too. So that's that is the reason that after 1850 grape varieties like merlot, cabernet sauvignon, sauvignon blanc, chardonnay, pinot noir, pinot blanc, and also sauvignonasse, were introduced in this area. So there you had the introduction of the French grapes. Actually they also tried nebbiolo and barbera and other grapes from Piemonte. They tried them and they found out they didn't didn't work so there's no nebbiolo left in the area but barbera is left in some parts of Collio you still can find barbera but they gave it another name it's called Negrus. So when you go to San Floriano you can ask them some they will not know about barbera but they will know about negrus and they could indicate where is the vineyard. ### \[1:11:53\] The many names of Sauvignonasse RT: You mentioned sauvignonasse. We should speak then about friulano, also known as sauvignon vert. This is the same same grape I understand? PB: Yes it's the same grape sauvignon vert and sauvignonasse is a grape that is known from bordeaux and Loire area in France in Bordeaux still now that people will say that it's not an interesting variety and even if it's maybe still somewhere present in that area also in the Loire. This is genetically is very close to the sauvignon blanc and in the wet it can sometimes look a little bit like sauvignon blanc and there's the problem. So it was not identified correctly or maybe the the the guy who brought the plans made a mistake. That's also possible. Anyway, the confusion started with the name. At a certain point in Collio and in the Friuli area, they thought, "Oh, this is another grape and gives good wine." And um it it it was really after 1920 that they started to realize that this grape is really doing well. And that's that's the interesting part because in Bordeaux they say that this grape is not interesting. And here in this area, the grape grows fantastically and gives some of the most important and dominant wines of this area. And that's very curious about the name. There was confusion. First, they thought it was coming from Tokaji because it could be also a bit sweet. And one of the counts who had some territory in the area of Collio, he came from from Hungary. But we know for sure that it was among the the grape varieties introduced from France in the years after 1850\. So this more recent name confusion was it was called Tokai or Tocai Friulano and now re renamed as Friulano. Can you speak to that confusion a little more? Yes because it is known that the Tokaji is one of the most important wines from central Europe. It's from Hungary partly also in Slovakia but most important part is Hungary and in the European Union there is a kind of rule that the local names and the toponyms are dominant in wine name and the laws on wine names and when the Hungarians claimed the unique possibility to call their wine Tokaji and not the other wines, all the other producers and regions that use "tocai" for any wine should refrain from using Tokaji in the name. So in Alsace there was the use to call "pinot gris tokaji" just to enter the word which was a selling point. It didn't have any reason at all only selling point. In Italy more or less it was the same. And in Italy um there was the the confusion because in Italy and also in Slovenia by the way other in all all the places where the grape sauvignonasse was planted they were not allowed anymore to call it Tocai Friulano or Tocai Italico So they you should go to another name and then in the end in Friuli they call it Friulano, which is which is a problem because the other areas in Italy like Veneto or Emilia Romagna where the same grape is planted they cannot call it friulano because it means the grape from Friuli which is really from France. No, it's it's legally by the region of Friuli. It's legally registered only in the region of Friuli. I am against this practice because I think it's not correct to register any grape in any region in the world because the use of grape varieties is uh allowed for everybody and registering the grape variety only for your territory is insane. It has no sense. Imagine what would happen when the France would claim the name Chardonnay for them. You could not produce Chardonnay in California. You cannot produce Chardonnay and you cannot produce it anywhere. What would happen? The world would be in big distress. The France and the France are not doing that because they are wiser. Unfortunately, they're wiser because they understand that you have to produce a wine and to sell the wine as part of the territory. And that's the basis of any wine communication in France. And I think it has to be the same in Italy. RT: When there is Friuli grown in Emilia Romagna, what do they call it? PB: Well, in Emilia Romagna, I don't know exactly. RT: I'm sorry, Friulano. PB: In the Veneto, they have started to call the grape variety Tai. So, it's called Tai. RT: \[Laughs\] Great! PB: And that was the old dialect local name in the the cafe. They called it Tai. Also in Friuli in the past they said "my glass of tai." So it's only the resistance of an old local dialect in still at this moment in Slovenia they have also the problem they do not have many vine but they have the wine and it was authentical there historical there and there is no union between the wine growers so you can find these grapes many different names. RT: So, let me get this straight. The grape is actually Sauvignonasse \[aka\] Sauvignon vert, green sauvignon from France, which didn't really do well there, but does well here for a long time in this region. For a while, it got called Tocai Friulano, just to ride on the coattails of the popularity of the Hungarian \[wine\] Tokaji. Hungary decided, no, you can't use that anymore. So what had been commonly called Tocai Friulano became called Friulano. But since that means "the grape from Friuli," there's some confusion about what to call it in the other places where it's also grown, like Slovenia and Emilia Romagna or Veneto. What does the wine taste like? Is it worth all the trouble? PB: I think so. I think so. The the wine is absolutely worth trouble because the wine is fantastic. It's one of the mainstays of this area. I think you cannot leave a winery or you cannot even go to Friuli without tasting Friulano because this is one of the most wonderful wines of the area. It has sometimes the producer goes to a more fresh style and goes with very easy tropical, apple style. Very often it's a bit more strong. It has more strong perfumes. It has this apricot, white peach, almond style of of of flavor and it can be very full bodied and can have a lot of alcohol can go above 14° sometimes. It has low acidity but it can be very tasty. It's it's really in the hands of some good good producers is one of the most important wines of Friuli. So a important one. Interesting thing is that the same confusion happened also in Chile. In Chile they had also the confusion because they had vineyards of sauvignonasse in the past they thought it was sauvignon blanc. Now they found out it's different and now in Chile they didn't fuss about names they just call it sauvignonasse and I think that's the most right thing to do. RT: Just calling it sauvignonasse. I noticed that's what you're referring to it as. Yes. Wow. What a fascinating history. I think it's a great example of the how it's not so simple what these grapes are called and which grapes they are throughout history. I I find this to be a fascinating detective work. Thank you for explaining it so well. Are there any other important wines that we've left out from the North Adriatic? ### \[1:20:02\] World-class Pinot Blanc in Friuli PB: I think we did pretty well. I think we did pretty well. You have a lot of grape varieties in Friuli in my book. You have seen chapter 7\. I wrote about many varieties white and red. One of the wine varieties that I would like to stress still is the Pinot Blanc because I think the eastern part of Friuli gives one of the most interesting Pinot Blancs of the world. Yes. Pinot Blanc from Collio is one of world class especially in the hands of some top producers. ### \[1:21:06\] The still Glera of Trieste Another thing is the the Glera I found out that Glera can be interesting and this is very strange because nobody even the best wine maker in Italy or worldwide. They know about wine etc. Nobody knows that you can make even an interesting wine of the grape variety that is used for prosecco. But you can. I found it! I went to Trieste and near Trieste you have these old very old historical vines. This they're very historical and there are some old families still continuing to produce wine and they are very modest. No idea that their their wine is like it it in Paris it would be one of the most important wines from France. In London it would be one of the most important English wines. And here near Trieste they're doing something very modest. And then don't know what they have in their hands. So, one of these guys uh his name is oh I have 14 names. It will come up in some minutes. Andre Bowler is his name. He makes a full 100% Glera from this area. And this is also the original area where the glera is coming from. That's what you said. The name prosecco comes from this place. This is the origin of prosecco. Prosecco, and glera, is from that part. And this glera wine was very interesting. It was a wonderful wine. I didn't know. It was a big surprise for me. I had no idea that glera can be so good. It's made into a dry wine. I mean, a still a still wine. A still wine. Just a still dry wine just like ribolla gialla. It was not far from real ribolla gialla. ### \[1:22:24\] Adriatic Linguistic diversity RT: So interesting. I would love to try that. Paul, this this project, this Modo di Bere project is about wine and local drinks, yes, but also about language and about my perhaps romantic conception that the local language could be considered the part of the terroir or at least that local words, local sayings, local dialects tell the same story about culture as we can find in a glass of wine. I actually want to read a quote from your from your book from early in your book. "Can a territory talk? Can vineyards talk or hills, rootstocks, vines, vineyards, cellars, houses?" I wanted to ask you a little bit about the linguistic biodiversity of, diversity of this region, but also of this idea of a wine glass speaking or how—these messages about culture I feel are as important to your life as they are to mine. So I wanted to ask you about your question about what things speaking to us hearing these messages from wine and from language. PB: There's a lot to say about this. So now we have to to have give me these two hours. Anytime. The first thing that I want to say is that wine grows in a territory. Wine grows in a place and wine is always part of a context. So wine is always part of some history or some culture and has to do something with the territory around. So you cannot only talk about wine and grapes how say how it's made and how many years in the wood and then taste it and enjoy it. No. Wine is also part of the culture and the language and the history of one territory. And that is especially also the case with the wines of this this area. And that's one of the things I I think um when you drink a wine from this area, you drink history and that's fantastic. So the history of this area which is also in part described in the book of Hemingway in his book Farewell to Arms the history of this area is very typical and in every wine it comes back. In the Ribolla Gialla that is called Rebula in Slovenia, Schioppettino that's called Pokalca in Slovenia, in the Pinot Blanc that's called Pinot Beli in Slovenia etc. And it means this is a multicultural society because in any—that was also the typical thing in the Austrian empire, everybody could speak his own language. There was no thing like dominance of one language. No, if you have your own language in your village, you just continue. Only the mayor of the village, he has to speak German and the the government has to speak German and the rest of the area doesn't speak German. So it was not even necessary to speak German even if they were in a German empire and it meant that the local languages continue. Friulano, very strange, is an older language than Italian. Italian is a rather recent language based on the Tuscan variant of Italian and created also because Italy became a nation in 1861 but the Friulano is based on the old vulgar Latin of the third or fourth century after Christ. So, it's much older and Friulano is also officially recognized as a local language. But go to page, page number 15 in my book and look how many languages are spoken in this area. So it's Italian, it's Friulan in Friuli which is a neo Latin language, it's Slovenian, it's antique Slovenian. And also that's for example, it's fantastic to see that Slovenian is one of the many Slavic languages and Slavic language you speak right from the border east of northeast Italy until Vladivostok \[in eastern Russia\] in a big part of the the the whole continent. It's all Slavic languages, but there are many different ones. And Slovenian is related to Russian and and Serbian, etc. But old Slovenian, they say, is more close to Russian. And old Slovenian is not spoken anymore in Slovenia itself. But in Italy, yes, near Cividale, you'll find an area in the mountains where they still speak old Slovenian. Nobody knows it. This is fascinating. So German was the most important language in the part passed and has uh left and then go to Istria. In Istria there are two main languages it's Croatian and Italian and there that there are also sad histories to tell about the the people that have to had to left were kicked out of the country in the past. But still many native Italian speakers live in Italy. Many people who have as first language Italian or at least an Italian dialect live in Istria. And they found out that many villages in like Buje, Vižinada, Poreč, Verteneglio, etc, Umago, they have all their local variety of an old dialect of the 16th, 18th century area of Vicenza near Venice and they were all slightly different and now they have a project in Istria they're going to protect these languages and beside you have also the Istrian dialect and you have also a small area where they speak Romanian old Romanian that's not spoken in Romania anymore only by some very old families in Istria. Very curious. RT: I read in your book that the Istro-Romanian people are considered by I'm quoting considered by UNESCO to be the smallest ethnic group in Europe. PB: Yes. If you consider the language as the base for ethnic group, then it's the smallest probably. Yes. Because the language is dying out. RT: I'm so interested in these neo-Latin dialects that that you're mentioning. That's so interesting. There are different neo-Latin dialects or languages. PB: Rhaeto Roman which is spoken in small parts of Switzerland is quite close to Friulian. It's also a neo Latin language. They say that in the north of Italy there are more places where they speak local dialects that are in fact based on old Latin with some influences from France etc. It could be that they're also kind of neo Latin dialect. RT: We're of course talking about several different countries here with in a region that has long had multiethnic, multicultural identity, but I'm curious about from place to place generally speaking the use of what Italian speakers often call dialect. You might, you know, speak Italian with other Italians from other regions or during business, but then at home or with your friends, you're speaking a local language. So how how strong in these various areas are the use of a local language in your experience as a traveler and a scholar of these matters? PB: I think in wine areas uh local people have a very strong local identity that you see in Piemonte where I lived and uh you can see it also in Friuli but also in Brda. The Brda is a local dialect of Slovenian and it's different from Slovenian. I don't understand Slovenian. So I cannot make the difference between Brda Slovenian and the real Slovenian, but they tell me that there is different. And then you go to Collio and there you have the the problem of the not the problem but the fact that part of the inhabitants of Collio speak Slovenian at home. ### \[1:30:55\] Slovenian prosecco labels So there's a Slovenian minority in Italy. Is still very strong. It's one of the reasons that the the official language on the label of prosecco can eventually also be Slovenian. So it's technically possible you have a Prosecco DOC wine and on the back label you have it in Slovenian language. The point about Slovenian language prosecco label is the point that the prosecco wine DOC prosecco I'm not speaking about DOCG prosecco because this that's a very limited area especially the Valdobbiadene is very limited so we are speaking out the general prosecco you see wine that can be produced in Veneto and Friuli and they included all wine in Veneto and all vineyards in Friuli so you can make it in a very large area the point is that in one part of this area a very small tiny part that's the eastern hills of Friuli near the border with Slovenia there you have people who are speaking Slovenian minor minority in theory they can produce also the prosecco they will not do it probably because the vineyards of Collio you will not use for making prosecco they they use it to \[?\] plant but in theory they can do it and that's the reason that legally they have to allow the possibility in the law that a back label of a wine prosecco can be put in Slovenian because it is possible there there will be a Slovenian speaking producer. In theory. In practice it will not happen very often but it can be happen in theory. RT: Can we talk a little bit about other cultural products from this region? Perhaps this Prosciutto di San Daniele, different agricultural products or artistic crafts like furniture. ### \[1:32:48\] Friuli: the best chairs PB: You speak about furniture in Italy, you have to speak about Friuli because one of the most important areas of producing chairs in Europe in the past was Friuli. When you go to Manzano, there were very big factories. There's very little left of it, but it was the chair producing region of Europe and it has to do with the fact that wood is easy to obtain from the Alps. It's close. You have a lot of good people working with their hands and handcraft making high quality handcraft products. And now all these products like chairs and and furniture are more mechanized. And that means that much of production has left the that's pity but still a part of it has remained in the are still some great producers of handcraft works with with wood like wine wine boxes for example but also check you still find them in Friuli. ### \[1:33:50\] Friuli: the best prosciutto When you speak about ham and prosciutto is the Italian word for ham, you have to tell the world that this is the area for producing ham. There's no other region in the world where ham is so important. In Istria in the Karst in hills around Trieste in hills around Cormons and Collio we have so many artisanal production of um prosciutto and the prosciutto di San Daniele is one great example and here I always say that Italians they are artist because they have so great sensibility for finding to the right conditions and exploring and maximizing the right conditions to make a for fantastic product and that's they have done in San Daniele very interesting to see that the the air stream from the Alps passes along the hills San Daniele is sit a little bit higher not on a hill not far from the Alps so they have they are profiting from the airstream and the exchange of cold and warm air in the area around of course there was always the maiale, the production of dried meat for ham and they used to mature the ham on the ceilings on the on the open air parts of the the buildings that the ham could mature in a natural way and there's no place where they do it better although today San Daniele is produced in in big factories where the the condition of the air cycling are are produced by machines not by the open air. So that has changed. But the same ham production you find also near Cormons. There's a very famous producer of ham near Cormons. He's called Osvaldo. And every producer in the area of Cormons, they'll always tell you you have to go to Osvaldo. You cannot leave this area before you go to Osvaldo. That's the culture of the area. When you go to the Karst or to Trieste or to Istria, they produce you with the the the ham from the Karst or the ham from Istria. It's local. It's typical. ### \[1:36:05\] Friulian cheese intro RT: Tell me about the cheese. PB: There are so many. RT: What's your favorite? PB: One of my favorites is the uh what they call Jamar. Jamar is the Slovenian word or the Slavic word for cave. And in the caves in the karst area above Trieste they have the jamar cheese which matured in these conditions is very humid condition in these caves and this gives this cheese a very special taste and very special specialty. Then you have the Tolminc. Tolminc you have always every winery in in Brda and and Vipava always will offer you a part of tolminc cheese and also in Collio. You have the Montasio which is from the northern alps. Montasio is also a delicious cheese. RT: When a person is visiting the north Adriatic besides touring wineries, what other what other activities can people do as they're traveling? What are some places that you have to see that you can't miss? ### \[1:37:09\] Don't miss Trieste PB: You cannot miss Trieste. Trieste is absolutely very interesting town with this accent of of the huge culture history that you still find in the town. It's still very multicultural. It's kind of Vienna but put at the sea and the big big place of of of Trieste is totally open to the sea and this is wonderful. ### \[1:37:28\] Gorizia and Nova Gorica Uh you cannot miss Gorizia. Gorizia is very typical Austrian town but it's now in Italy and Gorizia has still this old center which I like very much. Please notice that Gorizia and Nova Gorica together will be Europe European capital for culture in 2025\. So in two years the towns Gorizia and Nova Gorica will be together the capital for culture. So it will they will be center for culture in Europe. So they will be world famous. So we are going to reach and see more of this. ### \[1:38:06\] Historic Cividale Uh when you go to the north coat of Cividale, Cividale is absolutely one of the most interesting towns in Italy. Cividale has old cellars of 300 before Christ just near the center just near the old Roman bridge. They have the statue of Cesar, Julius Caesar who was found in the town and they have the old one of the oldest churches in Europe that's still visible and Il Tempietto Longobardo of the 8th century is part of it even two centuries before very very old country. ### \[1:38:43\] Grado, an older Venice When you want to see something special we have also to go to Aquileia which is culturally extremely important and also Grado is an island on the coast before Aquileia it's 20 kilometers from Aquileia uh it's it is the southern part of the laguna also here Friuli has some lagunas just like Venice the only thing is that Grado is older than Venice the whole world talks about Venice but Grado is older and Grado has some very old findings and some very old statues and the old church is I think sixth century where do you find a church that is still visible and totally totally correct it's it's sixth century the only place that I know is Poreč that's in Istria they have also such things. These towns along the coast south of Trieste you have a long list of towns they are wonderful. It starts with Koper then you have Izola, Piran then you have Umag, in Croatia, Poreč, Rovinj, and then Pula and deep deep south of Istria. All these towns have so rich history beautiful old Venetian centers wonderful to visit. ### \[1:39:41\] Hiking the Alps Adria trail By the way something interesting for a tourist would be to do the Alpe Adria tour. There is it's called the Alpe Adria trail. It starts somewhere in Austria or maybe in Germany. I don't know exactly. It stops somewhere in Istria in the south. And it goes along all these historical places through the vineyards through the mountains. You can do it by foot. You can do it by by car. You can do it by bicycle. And there are people from all over the world coming there and doing the Alpe Adria trail and visiting this part of the north Adriatic. Of course they all go there and drink the great wines. RT: It sounds like a dream. PB: It is a dream. RT: What about in terms of enjoying the outdoors? ### \[1:40:44\] Slovenia is very sporty PB: Then you have to go to Slovenia. Slovenian people are very sporty. So you can do a lot of climbing in the mountains. You can do rafting on the Isonzo River. Uh you can also kayak in the sea. And you can go to Trieste. Very interesting. Near Trieste, you have a canyon that's going east from Trieste into this very strong hill sector of the Karst mountains. And this is a canyon that is totally uninhabited by people. It's totally nature is a natural area. And there you have the lowest alpine refuge in the world. It's about 70 meters above sea level because you can do several days of hiking in the nature over there and yes when you are hiking several days you need a place to stay the night. That's the reason they put a refuge. RT: What about fishing? That's one of my favorite things to do. I remember being told there was great fly fishing in Brda. PB: Oh in Brda you cannot do fishing because there are no rivers. You can do fishing in the Isonzo. I do not know exactly how many fish you can find but there will be some some trout very probably yes there are some rivers but some of the rivers are rain rivers so they're big part of the of the year they are drying so there's nothing. RT: I read something in your book about a good place for fishing. PB: I would absolutely go to the lagunas near Grado and there you should go fishing and there you will find fish. Of course, it is where the the big Isonzo and the other rivers come down in the in the in the sea. You have still a low amount of water, 2 m deep for large area. You have—it's it's it's a mixed and and salt water. So, it's special condition. You have a fantastic fishing there. ### \[1:42:37\] Paul Balke speaks a lot of languages RT: Paul, how many languages do you speak? PB: I try to speak a little bit with English. You can notice that my English is not without mistakes. My Italian is also not without mistakes. The same with Spanish, the same with Dutch, the same with German and French. And those languages I do speak I can communicate in those languages and I try to learn also a bit Slavic. RT: I still, I would still say that I speak an English that is not without mistakes and and that's my native language. So I think that's a lot of languages to speak with or without mistakes. I really like to talk about idioms and local sayings in this project. I think they also tell a story about culture. I wonder if you have a saying that comes to mind from from the North Adriatic or from from Dutch or from any other languages that that you like to speak. ### \[1:43:16\] Stop politics at the dinner table PB: Well, there's one that I know, but it's not from the north Adriatic, it is from Piemonte. It is: "Quando arriva la minestra, non c'e più sinistra e destra." And it means when the soup is arriving, minestra means soup. There's no political left and right because everybody's eating. RT: Oh, I love this. That's a wonderful That's a wonderful saying. It's easy. "Quando arriva la minestra, non c'e più sinistra e destra." PB: That's fantastic. That's fantastic. ### \[1:43:57\] Paul Balke's wine travel book RT: Paul, thank you so much. This was a fantastic interview. I learned so much and I I really hope that everybody goes and and gets this book, this book, your book, North Adriatic by Paul Balke. Where can people order and buy this book from you? PB: Actually, I I've been speaking with several publishing houses in the US. I we did not yet find an agreement. So, I'm still looking for a solution there. I'm going on Amazon, but going myself on Amazon is not the best option. RT: Sure. PB: So, I looking for an option. In any case, everybody can send me an email. You find me on my website paulbalke.com and you can get the book sent to you. I send an invoice and the book will arrive at your home. This is a very interesting part of Italy and as we talk about Italy, you easily go around the borders and you've been in the north side and there is interest in the US. I know that. RT: So if you want the book, you can order it from Paul directly at paulbalke.com. You can send him an email. I really recommend that you get it. It's it's quite a beautiful book. It reminds me of an older generation of travel and wine books. What in the past you might call a coffee table book just full of such beautiful pictures. But what I think is missing from that description is the deep scholarship and analysis and insight. So, you know, I I think it's so much more interesting than a more blandly designed sort of travel guide. It's it's really a tribute and a deep deep research study and also a a delightful read about the north Adriatic including Friuli-Venezia Giulia, West Slovenia, Istria and Kvarner. Paul. Thank you so much for your work. I'm really glad that you are out there doing this. PB: Thank you very much. I was great talking with you and you have a great dedication. RT: Thank you. I think we are interested in some of the same things. I believe we realized this immediately when we when we met in the Micromega tent at the Vinitaly Wine Fair in Italy. I can't wait to see you again in person, Paul. I know you travel all over the world. I hope to see you in New York. I hope to see you give some kind of presentation, but in the meantime, thank you so much for coming on this podcast. PB: I've never been in New York, so I really would love to come there. I would love. RT: Oh my goodness, what a shame. You've traveled so widely. I hope to welcome you soon. PB: It's true. It's really a shame. I really would like to come. Yes. ### \[1:46:36\] Outro RT: Listen, I just think we're all so lucky to have heard this interview with Paul. And I want to say thank you to all of our listeners, to all of our supporters wherever you go and whatever you like to drink. Always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Support us on Patreon. Grab the newsletter at mododibere.com and subscribe to the YouTube channel at mododibere to watch the travel show Modo di Bere TV. Music for the show was composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou. Purchase their music at the link in the notes. \[NOTE: **We are no longer using Patreon!** Become a member [right here](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e14-tazzelenghe-the-tongue-cutter/#/portal/) to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\] > **SPANISH LEARNERS NEEDED!** *This episode is brought to you by Culture Without Borders Language Collective, our exclusive sponsor for the month of October 2025\. If you've been wishing for real people to practice your Spanish with, CWB is looking for more English-speaking Spanish learners to join their monthly language exchange.These online meetups are completely FREE for participants.* > > *Visit* [*cwbcollective.com*](http://cwbcollective.com/?ref=mododibere.com) *and subscribe to their newsletter to get the dates for the next meetup.* Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ A Cellist and a Mountain ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e8-serena-jost-and-the-mountains/) [ My Husband's Duolingo Obsession ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4-e6-my-husbands-duolingo-obsession/) ### ▷S4E3 Lo Stivale in 20: Friuli-Venezia Giulia, con Paul Balke URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s4e3-lo-stivale-in-20-friuli-venezia-giulia-paul-balke/ Last updated: 2026-08-31T02:25:33.000Z L'esuberanza di Paul Balke per le regioni vinicole italiane ribolle come un bicchiere di prosecco, che, come scopriamo in questa puntata, non è nato in Veneto, bensì nel villaggio di Prosek, vicino a Trieste. Questa speciale puntata, in formato doppio, di The Boot in 20 è perfetto per veri amanti del vino italiano. Anche gli appassionati più accaniti dei vini friulani scopriranno vitigni autoctoni di cui non avevano mai sentito parlare prima. Chi ascolterà fino alla fine, scoprirà le fette di prosciutto più eccitanti del mondo! La serie The Boot in 20 presenta un'intervista con un esperto di vini delle 20 regioni italiane. Dopo aver ascoltato questa puntata, comprenderete la storia geopolitica che porta Paul a insistere nel discutere dei vini del Friuli-Venezia Giulia in relazione ai vini della Slovenia occidentale e ai vini croati della penisola istriana. [Ascolta in inglese / Listen in English](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-en/s4e7/boot-in-20/friuli-venezia-giulia/paul-balke) ![ Paul con Rose Thomas ed Emilia, che sono state molto grate a Paul per i consigli ricevuti durante le riprese di una stagione di Modo di Bere TV nella regione del Nord Adriatico. ](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/paul-with-rt-and-emilia-at-vinitaly-format-original-1.jpg) Paul con Rose Thomas ed Emilia, che sono state molto grate a Paul per i consigli ricevuti durante le riprese di una stagione di Modo di Bere TV nella regione del Nord Adriatico. ![ Vi è venuta voglia di organizzare un viaggio in questa regione? Non perdetevi il bellissimo libro di Paul, North Adriatic. Potete ordinarlo direttamente da Paul sul suo sito web, dove potrete anche scoprire di più sulla sua produzione vinicola e sulla sua musica per pianoforte! Sito web di Paul: paulbalke.com Segui Paul su Instagram: instagram.com/paulbalke ](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/paul-27s-book-in-collio-format-original-1.jpg) Vi è venuta voglia di organizzare un viaggio in questa regione? Non perdetevi il bellissimo libro di Paul, North Adriatic. Potete ordinarlo direttamente da Paul sul suo sito web, dove potrete anche scoprire di più sulla sua produzione vinicola e sulla sua musica per pianoforte! Sito web di Paul: paulbalke.com Segui Paul su Instagram: instagram.com/paulbalke - Espandi per la trascrizione generata automaticamente. (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)Benvenuti a Modo di Bere italiano, il podcast su bevande e detti locali. Sono la conduttrice Rose Thomas Bannister.La puntata di oggi è una puntata speciale, una serie di una serie educativa Lo stivalo in 20\. Per questa serie intervisterò una esperta di ciascuna delle 20 regioni vinicole italiane. Parleremo di storia regionale, sfide e opportunità nel presente e nel futuro, terreno, clima, vitigini e vini, leggi sul vino e consigli su come visitare. L'ispetto di oggi è Paul Balke.è Nord Adriatico. Alto Adriatico. Ok. e Alto Adriatico, comprendente la regione italiana del Friuli Venezia Giulia, la Slovenia occidentale la penisola estriana e l'aria del Quannero. Resto impareremo perché non parleremo solo della regione italiana del Friuli, ma perché dobbiamo includere parti della Slovenia e della Croazia per parlare veramente di questa regione venicola. Ma prima devo presentarvi Paul Palqu è originario dei Paesi Bassi. Ci siamo incontrati per caso nel tendone Micro mega alviny nella primavera del 2023\. mi ha regolato una copia del suo bellissimo libro Alto Adriatico. Potrei dire immediatamente che Paul si era innamorato dell'Italia, della cultura italiana, della lingua e del vino, nello stesso modo in cui l'ho fatto io. è giornalista, esperto di vini, specialista del Parolo, studioso di storia e cultura che parla molte lingue, suona anche il pianoforte e fa il suo vino. Oltre al suo libro Alto Adriatico, ha scritto un libro intitolato Piemonte Wine and Travel Atlas, Piemonte Atlante dei vini e dei viaggi. Il libro Alto Adriatico è disponibile in inglese e italiano. Il libro di Piemonte è disponibile in inglese. La prima volta che Paul ha visitato il Friuli si è reso conto che una visione della regione gli era già venuta in sogno. Ha vissuto in Piemonte e ora vive in Irpinia in Campania. Grazie. Buongiorno. Ho fatto un viaggio mio nella regione del Collio friulano e nella zona slovena del BA nella primavera del 2022\. Mi sono innamorata della zona e ho imparato la storia di come le regioni siano davvero una cosa sola. Questo viaggio ha cambiato anche la mia vita perché è stato allora che mi è venuta l'idea di modo di bere. L'idea era capire che volevo parlare divino e lingua insieme come due porte per una storia, la storia della cultura. Quindi, prima di iniziare a parlare della diversità del vino nella regione, mi piacerebbe chiederti Paul della diversità delle lingue e dei dialetti della zona. Con piacere. Ti devo dire che proprio giusto quella che hai detto, la prima volta quando sono stato lì era invitato da un eh piccolo produttore di Slovenia che mi ha invitato e lui mi ha messo nella sua macchina e siamo andato a girare e subito ho perso tutto l'assenza per dire ragione perché sono tante curve non sai più dove sei. un certo punto mi adesso siamo in Italia, non mi ero reso conto e quel ragazzo di Slovenia mi ha portato un produttore in in Italia perché sono amici e lui voleva portarmi amici, però si trovano in altro paese, ma sono a poco centia di metri della casa. Allora, è così vicino e questo è proprio in modo essenziale, la storia di questo territorio perché tutto è molto vicino eh un po' in Italia, un po' in Slovenia e dobbiamo poi sapere che quell'aspetto lì che adesso su questi 12 che sono molto belli e romantici parte era Italia, ma in parte era Jugoslavia e lì era anche un po' la cortina di ferra, anche se magari tra Italia e Jugoslavia la cortina di ferro alla fine non era così duro come eraaltra parte, però ha comunque qualche senso e c'era all'inizio nei anni 4050 c'era un po' di tensione che poi si è risolto e ma la storia di questo territorio è molto particolare. Allora, oggi vedi le belli vigneti, le ciliegie e le le colline sono così romantici. è veramente un territorio bellissimo e non ti rendi conto che la storia di questo territorio è così particolare e questo mi sono reso conto grazie a questi incontri che ho avuto, grazie a questi produttori che mi hanno preso in macchina, mi hanno fatto vedere le cose e qualcuno parlavero, qualcuno parla italiano e infatti io parlo, non parlo sloveno, io parlo italiano con tutti italiani, ma io parlo anche italiano con tutti i sloveni perché tutti parlano italiano. Per me era la lingua con quale posso parlare con tutti, però la lingua lì era una cosa delicata, soprattutto nel Interbellum nel periodo 1920 fino a 1945, quando dopo la Prima Guerra Mondiale un grande territorio dell attuale Slovenia e Croazia è rimasto sotto Italia e Italia ha messo in pratica una politica molto diversa. dal periodo di prima sotto Austria Osburgo perché Italia ha voluto impostare la lingua e questo non era mai stato fatto nel nel periodo prima perché sotto l'impero austroganico e tutte le lingue nel territorio sono stato parlato da tutti e era normale solo il capo della città, il sindaco dovrebbe parlare tedesco e anche il governo eccetera. ma pochi. E allora il periodo STI Italia non era così facile e ma era solo uno non facile perché prima era anche fto duro anche dopo dopo eh 55 è stato un periodo con tanti confusione e Italia e Jugoslavia all'inizio non sapevano come i confini perché era chiaro che eh Jugoslavia di Tito voleva Volevo prendere una gran parte di Italia, volevo che il confine sarà vicino a Verona o di Venezia e a un certo punto un po' diati erano anche d'accordo. Poi americani detto, "Scusa questo non lo facciamo perché Trias deve rimanere in Italia." Allora, a un certo punto hanno concluso in 1954 e Trieste era rimasto So Italia e intorno a Triest hanno creato questo confine che si vede ancora oggi sulla carta perché se se guardi la cartina di Italia vedi nord Italia e vedi un angolo un po' strano con la città dietria e questo è il risolto di questi questi periodi e il risolto oggi Eh, è molto carino e perché oggi si fa Gorizia e se fai Gorizia è una bellissima città. Io consiglio tutti a andare a vedere. Se vai 1 km nord di Corizia arrivi in Slovenia. Se fai 500 m a est e Coriccia o anche 100 m sei già in Slovenia e lì hanno creato sotto Jugoslavia una nuova città che oggi ci trovo. Allora, in Slovenia si chiama Nova Gorcia. Se vai 1 km sotto la città di nuovo ti trovi in Soverna. Vuol dire una volta tutto questo era a Croazia e tutte le zone di quale io parl erano anche il giorno conicolle. Allora questo confine che è stato costruito nel 19474è stato cosa magari per di là era duro, ma oggi non più tanto duro, ma ha diviso le sono piccole. e che risolono oggi in stati diversi stati e sistemi politici una delle volte diversi oggi tutta l'Europa. Vuol dire che eh per capire la zona di là devi capire un po' la storia. Certamente.Che più dobbiamo sapere della storia del vino in questa zona? Allora, lì c'è molto da dire e posso dire che ho fatto tantissimo ricerca per fare il mio libro. Posso fare un piccolo riassunto delle cose che ho trovato che sono molto interessante sapere. Il vino è arrivato già prima dei romani, pensiamo. E ci sono stato tracci di qualche zona produttiva in zona al città di Aquileia in Priul che sono strettamente prima dei romani. Allora pensiamo che in quella zona lì i greci hanno portato già il futur e se non erano i greci sono stati altri oppure magari ancora prima. è molto difficile a dire quando ha realizato la periodo di di fare vino, eh perché un il fatto di trovare un sema di una uva non dice ancora che c'era la produzione di vino perché le uve si può anche mangiare. Allora, ma si pensa che prima dei romani avevamo già iniziato a far vino, poi il Impero Romano il rapporto arrivato Giulio Cesare ha fondato la città di Cidale del Friuli e questa città ancora oggi è gioiello e ha anche questo stretto legame con Giulio Cesare perché ehm Cesare era membro della famiglia dei ULI e ha chiamato eh quella città era chiamato Forum Yuligi, vuol dire il mercato dei Yulini. Questo oggi è il origine del nome Friuli perché forum Yuli è diventato Friuli. È interessante. Dopo i romani arrivato Medioevo e arrivato dall'estero asburg si sempre diventato più grande. A un certo punto anche Venezia è diventato più grande. Questi due imperi sono andati a contestare e fino a più o meno 1900 1860 eh questi due imperi avuto un confine, no? è finito con Napoleone e poi gli austriaci hanno preso tutto nordest italiani fino a Milano, fino a quasi più molto e poi eh con la nascita di Italia il fiume Yudrio è diventato il confine tra Italia e lo stato alburgo e questo era è rimasto fino al 1915 quando è iniziato la prima guerra mondiale. È proprio lì dove sono adesso i dolci vigneti di Corio e delle corie ocentali si trova il fiumirio, il tributario del lì è stato il primo colpo eh della guerra che è stato la grande guerra, si dice la grande guerra è la la guerra eh che ha fatto veramente cose molto brutte, è stata bruttissime. In questa guerra ha scritto anche il famoso scrittore Hemingway americano, lui è stato in Fiuli durante la guerra perché per nell'arma amer italiana era autorizzato che americano nato negli Stati Uniti e potevo eh prendere un ruolo, era autorizzato in quell'epoca, anche perché Italia era stato molto legato a Stati Uniti, America, Italia era anche stato molto giovani. Allora, Hemigway è diventato diant e in realtà non ha fatto guerra, ma ha guidato dei feriti, era conduttore di un campione dove hanno portato anche certo, anche lui è ferito, è rimasto in Milano per guarire tutto. lui ha dato la inspirazione per creare questo grande libro si chiama Audio all Army Perval to Arms. È un bellissimo libro che consiglio a tutti a leggere che dà un implonta non storica, no? No, perché è più romantico, ma anche bello perché capire un po' la importanza di quella guerra in quell'epoca lì. È stata quasi più importante del secondo guerra. Strano a dire, ma la importanza della prima guerra si vede dappertutto. Se se vai a Gorizia nel corso a Trieste, dappertutto ci sono momenti monumenti eh di memoria tutto le caduti dappertutto. C'è un grande museo in Cobarit caporetto in in Slovenia eccetera. Allora, dopo allora vuol dire che questi vicende sono stato molto importanti per il territorio e poi è nato Jugoslavia, non era comunista, come qualcuno dice, era socialista. Per esempio, in Jugoslavia era possibile di per un cittadino Yugoslavia era possibile di andare a viaggiare. Era anche molto normale di tornare a casa. Questo non si si vede in stati come la derivierda, est Germania e Cecchia, eccetera. Lì c'era proprio un eh sistema totalitario e si di là non potevano uscire e se potevano uscire eh cercano veramente di non tornare. Per il yf questo era diverso, vuol dire era un stato molto più libera e era socialista, vuol dire che proprietà era autorizzata fino a un certo punto, ma si vede che un paio di persone nella zona proprio di al confine concordio e nel co in quell'epoca di Juostabia hanno potuto fare un po' di soldi perché hanno avuto vigneti in Italia mentre la loro sede era in Jugoslavia. Allora, che cosa hanno fatto? Hanno venduto le uve, hanno fatto soldi che per loro era un fondo di ricchezza e per loro era ammesso, era possibile, era un un po' una estraazione del regime di Jugoslavia. Ho anche la forte impressione che in altra parte di Jugoslavia magari all'inizio il regime era più forte soprattutto nella zona sud, ma quando era così duro. Allora, questo era un parte della storia, questo ha anche conseguenze sui vini perché vuol dire durante questi period nel dopoguerra, no, in Italia tutta l'agenda avuto il tempo e il modo di suarsi hanno avuto molta fortuna coro soprattutto è diventato una un giorno molto importante, mentre dall'altro lato loro amici di Slovenia, perché tanti erano amici, erano anche parenti. non hanno potuto svilupparsi perché erano sotto un altro regime politico, allora non potevano fare nulla. Per questo oggi in soprattutto in Slovenia, ma anche in Croazia c'è un grande motivazione, c'è un grande voglia di recuperare il tempo perso e andare avanti e vanno avanti molto veloce. Se tu avessi un amico che non ha mai bevuto un vino di Alto Adriatico, quali sono alcuni dei vini che suggeriresti di provare per primi? Io direi ci sono due vini che per pubblico sono molto piacevoli, facile e sono amici con tutti. Io consiglierei uno è il fiolano il Sognonos che è un vino di grande successo che viene prodotto in triuli, soprattutto in corio, cori orientali isso e danno grandi vini. Poi anche in altre parti di fiuli e c'è un piccolo parte di Slovenia do lo stesso Vitingno che ha un altro nome in quella parte perché si chiama Soignonas in quella parte lì. Ehm e quest questi vini hanno eh bellissimi profumi, molto eleganti, un po' di più alcol e ma però sono molto vivi e sono vini eh molto interessanti da scoprire anche anche eh come dire questa notizia di eh il piccolo idrocarburo è un piccolo mineralità che è molto tipico per questa zona di più che non trovo in altra parte. Altro vino che io consiglierei a tutti di bere è la malvasia e la malvasia magari è il vino che definisce il territorio perché si dice che viene da Estria, anche proprio brand è vero, però la si trova in Estria, inare, in Casso, in Colo, in Burda in Pipa, inso con gli orentani e in nelle grave in aquile e dappertutto sono anche buoni La mafasia è veramente un vino che identifica il territorio. Quali sono alcune delle principali caratteristiche climatiche e geologiche che influenzano questa regione? Abbiamo toccato un punto molto interessante perché eh devi sapere che la zona, per esempio, il Corio, Dodan, il Papa, questa zona continui eccellenti, si trovano più o meno eh sullo stesso latitudine di Bordeaux, i grandi pini di Bordeaux. Facciamo analisi lì in Bordeaux non vedive, magari stanno arrivando oggi, ma non c'erano, non c'erano mai. Questo territorio ha sempre avuto olive. E questo è più divino ancora un segno che il clima è molto miting perché se ci sono libolasi mai gelo. Eh, questo vuol dire che il clima è quasi mediterraneo, infatti lo è, con un piccolo tocco confentale qualche volta soprattutto nell'inverno, ma questo è nato da un paio di condizioni. Uno è l'Adriatico. Il mare Adriatico ovviamente è caldo e mediterraneo, finisce sopra Triest e lì porta molto un clima mite in zona limitro, ma non lontano da dove finisce il mare ci sono già la Alpi, la OPI Giulia, la OPI che si trovano in Slovenia e poi vanno verso Austria. Questi Alpi portano un aria molto freda durante la notte e c'è un escursione termica molto forte. Questo vuol dire che Friuli ha molto sole perché c'è sempre un po' di vento che porta via le nuvole. Sì, c'è qualche volta c'è anche pioggia e capita, ci sono anche zone in cui devono pioggia molto. Però una cosa che ho notato in questi anni, perché io vivevo in Piemonte, sono andato ogni mese da Piemonte a Friuli e ho notato che quando c'è tutto buio e nuvole e neve, pioggia, pielo si arriva in fiuli e 5° di più e sembra al sole e molto spesso. Allora, il ore solari in priori sono più alti, è un giorno molto soleggiato. Per questo la qualità di vita in più è molto bella cosa out green vuol dire eh esione termica con eh cambio di aria fredda e calda, molto solo e questi concioni creano soprattutto il clima per fare vini bianchi di grande eccellenza e questo è il fattore prima. Infatti i scienziati dicono che più che il terreno, il terreno è un discorso a parte che dobbiamo anche toccare, però più che il terreno molto particolare è il clima. Il clima e le connioni climatiche di queste giorni sono così, danno un grande opportuna a questi questi giorni per fare grandi vini eccellenti bianchi. Questa è una delle migliori zone sul livello mondiale per fare vini bianchi. Per questo è un giorno eccellente.Sono uscita sulla mia firecape di Brooklyn per parlarti dello sponsor di questo mese, il collettivo linguistico Culture Without Borders, cultura senza confini. Potresti ricordare la mia intervista in due parti con la cofondatrice Lind Sper della prima stagione. Più avanti nell'episodio oggi ti parlerò di un'opportunità gratuita per migliorare le tue competenze linguistiche.Parliamo della Ponca. La ponca è un un termine diale dellaione di Estuli e c'è anche una persona dialettale in Slovenia che si chiama opca perché lì la zona dove si trova la ponca metà del pozo palitiano metà paloveno e si trovano è una zona molta come si dice multiculturale. La Ponca è una delle miglior territori per fare la Ponca è un una un terra un po' grigia, un po' blu astre qualche volta nato da sistemi geologici un po' complessi. I pionti che si trovano sul ponka che in realtà è Flish. Qu è il termine tecnico giusto per la punca e la punca eh fa vari strati con ehm pietre e sabbia, pietra, sabbia, sempre in opaccione. Eh le racci della pianta vanno vanno giù, prendono l'acqua che si si trova il minerale del delle pietre eccetera, portano qualcosa al pianta. Eh, infatti è più duro, vuol dire che la rese di una pianta su questa terra è più bassa che inaltra giorno, ma la qualità delle uva è fantastico. E poi la uva di questa dà questa notizia di mineralità che non trovi in offri di questa è una notizia è tipico per questa giorno. Per questo anche i giorni sono le viti di questo giorno sono molto particolari, hanno una un un marcio in più, una cosa in più. Guidci attraverso la mappa. Puoi darci un quadro mentale del ubicazione delle diverse zone e parlarci delle uve e dei vini di ciascuna zona. Per favore, se parliamo del UM, i fitinghi, ma i fitinghi si trovano in tutto il giorno perché la storia di questo territorio è tutto austriaco e è stato era prima Impero Romano, poi austria Asburgo, poi Italia, eccetera. Allora, i vingheti adesso si trovano in vari paesi, ma la storia e anche i vittinghi e la tradigione nicoli erano tutti uniti al lato est e ovest del confinion. Questo vuol dire che se parliamo di si trova in Italia, ma anche in Slovenia, anche in Croazia. Per questo eh ho detto che già per esempio la malvagia è unica perché si trova in tutto questo territorio anche tanti espressioni diverse, ma è anche un pil unico per queste territori. Comunque parliamo di delle zone venicole che si può trovare in questo territorio. Iniziamo da Friuli, c arrivi da Venezia per dire o da Milano, da Open. Arrivi passi la città del Pordenone che è già circondata da Pieti. È una vecchia zona venicola importante. Tutta quella zona è pianeggiante perché pianura e lì la pianura eh ha anche un paio di altre giorne. Quella di Pordenone e Udine si chiama Graf del Fun. Poi sotto ci sono pai di piccole giorni come Agnio la tigiana e c'è un'altra giorno che più importante che è aquile e Aquileia non è solo importante per vino, ma anche per la storia perché la città di Aquileia che esiste ancora era una delle quattro città più importanti dell'Impero Romano. Puoi andare di là e poi vedere le scavi e le cose che sono trovate nella terra. È fantastico, è è tremendo. E poi pensare che sotto solo sotto le prati sono p di mucche dove c'è mais possono ancora essere mosaichi di grande senori romani. Ci sono ancora tanti scavi da da pane. Lì c'è ancora molto ricchezza sotto la terra. Ehm e poi ci fanno anche vini buoni e ho già detto che lì c'è un grande monilia. Poi po di est lì c'è una zona che si chiama Isono, doc Isono in Triuni. Questo do rappresenta un paio delle migliore a del Friuli che è molto importante e lì fanno vini eccellenti di molto volieri lì e si trova grandeanche scoppetino e anche importanti internazionali come pino bianco, pino grigio e poi anche il riposo che con i vini rossi fanno spesso e un paio di sono tra i primi eh sull importanza sul livello nazionale in Italia. Se andiamo un po' verso il nord, abbiamo una zona che inizia nord Udine e finisce vicino al confine convenio che si chiama Coli orientali e Coli orientali è una delle prime zone del territorio di quali noi parliamo. du 2500, ma probabilmente di più. Ha un paio del posti molto storici con grande importanza storica per il vino italiano come la Avanzia di Rosaccio e un grande territorio con grande bianchi e grande rossi. E se parliamo di pigni ci sono almeno 15 per bianchi e meno se o sette per rossi. E lo stesso conto anche per Corio e in Corolio oggi è ancora eh molto importante, ma se guardi sulla cartina vedi Colorio ha una forma di un mezza luna e la zona interna della mezza luna si trova si chiama Gorescca B e di questo abbiamo già parlato prima dell'inista perché la gorisca Bra è il patto sogna una volta Non era di Piso perché tutto questo territorio Colio e Goriska B era tutto Colio e Burda era solo la tragione in Slovenia dallo stesso territorio e qualcuno di Slovenia soprattutto lo dice Ancona e lo sento anche che in Slovenia tra produttori e enti eccetera c'è anche forte voglia di unire di dopo questi territori cosa difficile perché parliamo di due stati un eh con due leggi diversi sistemi legislativi, molto diversi. Allora, non è facile mettere insieme questo. Dunque oggi grazie al trattato di Shengen puoi passare il copine e vai dalla dolce colline di Cio dolce quini di Burda e poi torni e lo puoi fare 5 o 10 volte ogni giorno è anche fantastico rifare perché lì ci sono tante belle bravi produttori, bellissime cantine e sono anche ristoranti molto buoni e oggi sono anche un paio di wine favolosi dove ti danno dei vecchi figli macerati di 10 anni. Veramente è è uno spettacolo. Allora, lì c'è molto da stilpare e scoprire. Una bellissima drone e eh si potrebbe dire come Barolo in Piemonte qua eh un po' il cuore del Friuli e di Slovenia è questa giorna qua di Colio e di Burda. E nel mio libro ho messo Colia e B insieme. Questo era delicato perché in Italia un paio di produttori vogliono proteggere il docum e dicono "Sì, ma questo doc dobbiamo essere eh prudente e non dividere con altri e loro sono anche molto esitanti a iniziare collaborazioni con con Oltre confine eh con i colleghi di Slovenia perché eh vogliono un po' proteggere il loro marchio. Questo ci intende perché ognuno vuole protegersi su business. Questo lo posso ben capire, però in Slovenia si vede che eh c'è c'è la voglia di recuperare il tempo perso durante Jugoslavia e c'è anche la voglia di unire di nuovo il territorio e ci sono anche in Italia un bel paio di produttori che sono a favore di queste cose. Per esempio, una cosa molto carina da raccontare e due anni fa c'era il Giro d'Italia, il famoso giro, eh, e aveva la tappa che in Gurizia e prima hanno fatto il percorso tra le colline e i ciclisti hanno dovuto tre volte fare il confine corio burda corio birda, corio burda. eh durante tutte le questi confini era anche durante la zona del periodo del virus Covid. Ora tecnicamente era molto duro da organizzare, ma l'hanno fatto e questo era anche un auto pubblicitario per promuovere eh di mettere insieme questo territorio e credo che è stato una grande bella cosa. Ehm si sono più iniziative eh di creare più collaborazione oltre confine in questo territorio. Eh di questo possiamo ancora parlare prima. Allora, quando partiamo da questi territorio andiamo n Est e lì c'è il confine con Slovenia e subito est Gorizia entri in un una valata di 70 km di profondezza. È veramente uno spettacolo bellissimo. In inglese si dice smiling valy. È strano a dire che una palata un valle può può gridare, però chi va in questa valle lo può capire perché l'ambiente, il le docze montagne a tutti e due lati, l'ambiente di un di sentirsi in Austria di 100 anni fa con piccoli paesi molto carini, tanti prodotti di vini molto carini, con vini carini, tutto carino che è veramente una una esperienza molto speciale, è un cosa da scoprir per questo la valla di Pipava merita di essere scoperto e io lo concido di tutti perché eh è una zona proprio a stampante e diversa da altri anche con vini speciali hanno dei figli autentici che sono soldi e ci sono tanti piccoli produttori che sono molto bravi dove poi andare ti osp volentieri, ti fanno degustare vari film e è una bella esperienza. Poi inmerszo sotto la Pipava lì ci sono due territorio, uno in Italia e uno in Slovenia che sono insieme perché si chiama il curso. Il corso è un termine geologico perché parliamo di un una area geologico officiale che si chiama il corso, ma il termine viene d'accordo perché questi tereni qua sono di un una pietra totaria molto dura e il corso per questo ha un carattere totalmente diverso dalla giorno. e anche diverso da Estia, diverso da Priuli e anche se un piccolo passo dal caso è il Prioni. Ehm, allora il caso è un una zona con la dove una volta la vita era molto dura perché era povera, c'era poco da fare e chi viveva lì aveva una non facile e il risultato siede ancora oggi, ma è anche molto interessante e i produttori di vino ti possono raccontare queste cose sono molto orgogliosi e sono anche persone con grande carati E per questo è una esperienza molto autentica di andare lì, sentire queste storie di queste persone del Carso e e sentire come loro avi hanno vuto lì, come era durante la guerra, come hanno sopravvissuto nel passato, quando era povero era e e poi il territorio è molto bello e soprattutto nella regione slovena, eh c'è un grande natura. Quello di Italia è un po' più bisuco, più sono costruito più case e più eh più paesi pieni. Eh in Slovenia trovi grandi spazi e grande foreste e qualche piccolo paese, però una molto bella. Andiamo verso sud, verso Triest. Trieste è la città più importante di tutto questo territorio e anche la città emblematico perché Trieste una città molto culturale come tutta questa giorno di quale noi parliamo adesso. Il auto Adriatico è multiculturale dappertutto. Triest una volta era austriaca, ancora oggi se vai a Triest e vai a camminare e bere un vino in centro di Trias, ti senta di una volta e questa è una cosa bellissima. Ci sono ancora un paio di caffèi che hanno questo eh spirito bellissimo, questo ambiente di 100 anni fa. dopo eh eh il camriere viene in livretto eh eh ti servono in modo come non pensiamo più che esiste. È bellissimo per ehm Allora, Trieste una volta era in città di vino e oggi non più. Ci sono ancora un paio di vecchiul cani rimasti che producono ancora un vino. Però è interessante a vedere questo perché loro fanno delle cose molto attenti. Sì. E molto interessanti e secondo me sono trascurati e perché hanno un grande valore culturale, anche perché loro conservano ancora vecchie regioni e vecchie vitinghi che sono quasi per essere dimenticati. Poi andiamo a Estria. Estria è il grande territorio che ha anche il form di un gropolo. Allora è già dalla forma sulla catina è già chiaro che questo è un territorio divino. È ver e Estria è veramente meraviglioso. Estria è un territorio. Se tu ci vai devi fare la tua agenda libera perché non vuoi più partire. È difficile ripartire perché è così bello. È magari più bello che tutto scambio. È è strana a dire, ma io penso così. Bravo, molto bravo.Paul, secondo te quale è le uve più importante al lato de friolano e e malvasia? Parliamo del più di ripola gialla, di re fosco, degli altri vini. Iniziamo con con i rossi. Ci sono un paio di vini molto interessanti in questo territorio, molto autentici. Nei bianchi devo dire che c'è un grande presenza di pino grigio e altri pini che sono un po' più commerciali per dire. Invece nei rossi c'è molta autenticità. E c'è un figo che è secondo me la più importante di tutto questo territorio, si chiama Reposco. Reifosco or in sloveno Reforkia di vari sono tutti attenti in questo territorio, anche se hanno scoperto un legame genetica con un petiglio della Sv in in Francia, però eh il vino si trova qua e da vini molto colposi, molto tonici e con grande acidità, però anche grande personalità sono di importanti e vengono importanti quando tu lo dai un po' di tempo. Allora prende prendi un grande mettilo 2 3 4 anni nella cantina e non devi berlo prima così arrivi ad avere un grande vino e poi il vino può stare 20 anni senza problemi. Un altro vitigno molto importante è il pignolo. una volta mi ricordo che era lì a Butrio a pranzo con signor Dorigo, il grande produttore di che ha rilanciato questo vitigno che era quasi dimenticato e oggi c'è veramente un boom di pignolo perché tutti i produttori pigliuli vogliono di no metter pignolo e dicono che la versione del barolo diudi questa eh modo di pensare non sono d'accordo perché parola ovviamente troppo unico, non si può farare così. Eh, però eh è vero che pignolo è un importante che è molto astero, molto eh molto pieno, eh ha tanini molto presenti e anche buona sanità e con profumi e raffinitezza non si può paraggonare con neiolo. Nebbiolo magari è un po' un pochettino più femminile, spignola, più maschile, più forte. E soprattutto pignolo ha bisogno di tempo per maturare e ogni pignolo deve aver maturato almeno 4 anni prima non poi berlo e produttori che lo fanno uscire con più anni fanno bene. Ci sono anche produttori che fanno questo. Io conosco un prodotore che ha messo pignolo per 20 anni in una vasca di di legno e adesso sta iniziando a produrre quel vino. Ma questo è assurdo, ovviamente questo non è facile da fare per nessuno. Un vino che è stato 20 anni in un bar e poi le vai a probamente. Quello vino sarà molto buono e sarà molto anche molto caro, credo. Comunque Pignolo è da ricordare c'è un persona irlandese che vive in triun ha scritto un bel libro su Pignon che si chiama Pingog. Altro petiglio interessante sui rossi è schiopetino. Eh, termine difficile schioppetino riferisce a il fatto che eh quando lo mangi la uva sbriciola un po' nella bocca. Questo si chiama schioppetino. Comunque eh è verigno eh storico in questo territorio. C'è anche un nome sloveno si chiama Pocia in Slovenia. Anche questo vuol dire che ha po storia e questo vuol dire che i i vecchi contadegni storici hanno già utilizzato questo vino. Sappiamo che nel passato c'era anche presente in Colio e in Burda. Oggi qua non lo trovi quasi più, lo trovi soprattutto nelle zone del coli orientali e poi soprattutto in una zona sud est di Cividale sotto zona una valata verso le opredo si fisce al prepotto e si chiama la sotto zone scoppatina di propotlo e lì tanti prodotori fanno prepotolo e il vino è veramente merita. Ha un leggero tanino, leggero peperone e delicato e è diverso di altri. Il colore un po' più leggero e elegante, ma anche forte. Allora, un bel Sì. Eh, c'è c'è un altro uve rosso che ricordo da l'intervista in inglese, una cosa che non è molto conosciuto. parte del eh delle famiglie del riposco è un altro vino che si chiama Teran o Terano e il Teran è l'evione che si trova sul Carso e anche in eh in Estria. E questo petigno è un petigno anche molto tanico. Anche questo ha bisogno di molto tempo per maturare e poi diventa molto e c'è anche una bella storia perché ci dice che l'imperatore Agosto aveva la mamma. La mamma di agosto è diventato 89 anni, che nell'epoca dei romani era molto raro, non capitava tanto. Allora si dice che lei è diventata così vecchia perché beveva il vino dal suo territorio e lei è nato nella zona tra Triest e Montpalcon nel Casso. E questo è la fonamento della teoria di no che il vino che signora Livia Augusta ha sempre bevuto per diventare così vecchio è stato ilano. Non lo possiamo provare perché nei fonti scritti su questo vino non sappiamo neanche se era bianco o rosso e però la indicazione era abbastanza preciso. tra Monfone e Triest. lì è lì ancora oggi importante è ter allora potrebbe essere ho perso comunque che è autentico in quella regione quindi ho iniziato con i rossi ha più senso in questa regione forse di parlare di più dei bianchi perché i vini bianchi sono più conosci con conosciuti, no? È vero quello che dici? Perché eh nel mondo eh questa giornama per i vini bianchi è meritato ed è giusto perché eh come ho indicato prima eh il clima di questa zona è molto particolare con questa particuliarità del suo termico, la vicinità del mare e le al favorisce i grandi bianchi. Allora, poi insieme con il territorio del Ponca si può fare grandi bianchi, però se guardiamo 100 anni in ritorno, per esempio, la Giandicolio faceva più rossi che bianchi, ma il motivo è chiaro perché lì era il vino nato per fare eh la strada per Austria e Vienna, è la corta di Vienna e lì si beveva più rossi che bianchi. Allora, è logico che questa zone importante nel passato ha prodotto più rossi che bianchi. È anche vero che eh io sono d'accordo a dire eh si fa grandi bianchi perché è proprio vero, però dicendo questo non devi dimenticare che è anche possibile di fare grandi rossi in precedente regioni, ma è più conosciuto per i bianco. I rossi sono meno conosciuti. Sono completamente d'accordo. ricordo bene un bicchiere di refosco e una trattaria di di un un pranzo un cormons. Quindi parliamo di più dei bianchi. Già abbiamo parlato del un po' di di Savionas, di friolano, di malvasia e parliamo un po' di Ribolle gialla. La Rivola gialla è una vitigini più caratteristiche di questo territorio. Eh, anche la Rivola si trova in grande parte di tutto di questo territorio. Si trova nella pianura, si trova nella colline di Corrientali Coli in Vipava si trova sul CO in Isonzo e poi e secondo me si trova anche nell Estria. Allora, i produttori di Estria non sono di cuori di me eh ma che storicamente c'era. E vuol questo vuol dire che la ribolla è praticamente dappertutto. Eh, la ribolla ha una particolarità perché ha un fratello comune che si chiama Charloni. Perché il papà dello Charney è lo stesso il papà della Rebolan. Allora, una volta c'era un importante in Europa che ha dato nascita a questo titinho e anche a allora in quel senso ribolla anche apparento con la tument di Ungheria, di Game di Bogna e anche il risting della Germania allo stesso eh genitore. Eh però la rivolla è nato qua. Io penso che è stato probmente notato medievo quando i monici avevano in in mano laura e facevano degli esperimenti nel nel monasteri. Io penso che è nato così, però quando ho scritto il mio libro North Adriatic, sono stato bombardato da un paio di persone da Slovenia che mi hanno dato tanti argomenti per dire che la ribolla gialla è nato proprio nel paese Visnivu. È vero che ci sono dati di atti notariglie che un castello che una volta si trovava in quella giornali lì aveva un pigneto di ribolla, è stato venduto. Allora, io non credo che questa è la prova perché nel Medioevo non si parlava di Allora, se c'era un documento che parlava di ribola, vuol dire che vino di quel territorio si chiamava ribolla e non per questo io non ho citato questa cosa nel mio libro, anche se era molto carino, eh, però è una bella storia. Eh, e una cosa è molto chiaro, la ribolagi giala o in Slovenia si chiama Ribula, ha proprio le ranici in questi territori. È vero, è un fitigno eh difficile da capire perché non è molto aromatico, è un po' più duro, ha anche tanti può avere tan strano però eh laità abbastanza alta. Allora, da vini con grande freschezza e quando sono giovane la freschezza rimane, ma anche molto fresatele perché ogni produttore va una versione diversa o anche due o tre. Si si trova come spumonte e poi come spumonte può essere molto buono. Si trova come un vino leggero giovane può essere buono. Si trova come un vino invecchiato anche in legno può essere buono. E poi la base di molto vini orange orange vine vini macerati è proprio nato in questo territorio e molto di questi produttori lavorano con la ribola gialla. Sì, dobbiamo che parlare dellaimportanza della tradizione di vino on di vino romato qui, no? È vero che ci sono stati due prodotto molto importanti che hanno iniziato a fare un vino bianco come se sarebbe un vino rosso. Eh, i questi due produttori si chiamano Grafner e Rarity. Il eh discorso è semplice. Prendi il vino bianco de di uva bianche e le fai fermentare e poi macerare e poi eh lo fai anche affinare in legno senza togliere eh le bucce. hai un vino totalmente diverso dal solito vino bianco, perché il vino bianco, come lo sappiamo, viene fatto eh per la divisione, le le bucci e le cose che vengono dal dalla bucci dal dalla uva non vengono utilizzati, allora vengono subito dopo l'inizio dell'altern separato dal vino. Ehm questa tecnica è stato molto criticato, però è anche difeso perché dicono che queste questi territorio una volta non avevo tecniche in cantina, non avevano le filtri, le inserzioni per controllare le temperature eccetera eccetera. Allora, i api, i genitori eh nonni eccetera, una volta hanno fatto tutti questi stile divini perché non avevo altro modo di poter farlo. E io credo che questo è vero. Sappiamo anche di un libro di 1800 di un creetto sloveno che questa cosa era proprio la è il comune in quel territorio lì. Allora, si può dire che Grappner e Ramicon sono tornato alla storia del territorio quando ho cominciato questo stile divino. È molto interessante a vedere che Orange wine oggi è vin molto famoso in tutto al mondo c'è richiesta per orang e dappertutto ci sono prodotori in tutti gli Stati Uniti, in tutta Europa, in tutto il mondo, anche in Latinoamerica, anche in Giappone, trovi produttori di vino che vogliono fare Orange Wine. Allora, è anche strano di capire che la base dell'Orange W magari non era tanto più però più piccolo paese nel Calusow si chiama Georgia e anche Armeni lì c'era il bacino del vino macerato perché hanno avuto lì le tecniche storiche da 8000 anni di fare i vini nelle ancore e con la bucce eccetera in modo molto autentico. Però sappiamo anche che gran parte di questi produttori in Georgia, Armenia erano già uscito, hanno messo tutto inx, le tank moderni eccetera per fare un vino in stile moderno. Poi è arrivato questo signor Grafner da Priuli. Anche il signor Grafner era dalla minoranza che parla saena nel parte italiano di Colio. Ehm lui ha scoperto la tradizione di Giorgia, ha portato anche ancora a casa, ancora portato di più, adesso ancora fa di più credo. Certo, punto l'attività di Grafnon ha anche rispogliato la cultura in Giorgia e adesso Giorgia e ha ripreso la produzione di fin in Anfura e questo è stato eh l'effetto dell'attività di signor Grafner. Allora, stato han fatto una bella cosa. Il signor Grafner è un produttore per famosissima e anche un un visionario, una persona molto interessante di incontrare. Eh, ha tante cose da dire, anche molto saggio e poi imparare molto da lui. Sì, è molto interessante la storia nuova di di Vino Orange nel tutto il mondo. una cosa, come si dice, unexpected.L'intervista con Lind Sper di Culture with Upders in due parti, stagione 1, episodi 8 e 9 ha davvero cambiato il mio percorso di apprendimento delle lingue. Solo fatto di sapere che il modo migliore per imparare una lingua e attraverso l'amicizia mi ha aiutato a rilassarmi. Lind mi ha insegnato che le persone non imparano molto bene quando sono ansiose o sotto pressione. Da allora ho partecipato a diversi eventi di culture with borders, sia di persona che online e non mi sono mai divertita così, tanto migliorando il mio spagnolo. Cultural Borders è alla ricerca di altri studenti di spagnolo che parlano inglese per uno scambio linguistico online. Visita [www.collective.com](http://www.collective.com/?ref=mododibere.com)e iscriviti alla newsletter per dettagli su come.Qual è la storia dell'uva francese nella regione? Secondo te qui hanno trovato un terroir speciale con il terreno della Ponca? Allora, prima di tutto voglio parlare di Merlot. È importante di sapere che Merlot è scoperto in Bordeaux non prima di 1825 o 24\. Allora, Merl poi è diventato anche importante in Bordeaux. Merlot è arrivato tramite legami con le porti di Triest, anche il porto di Tiran Piran e è stato impiantato perché tutto questo territorio era sotto Austria in epoca e già in 1870 c'era molto malò in tutto questo territorio e questo vuol dire che dopo Bordeaux la seconda giorn sul livello mondiale dopo Mlot ha preso piedi è stato proprio questo, è importante dire questo. Ehm dobbiamo guardare bene la storia per capire questa cosa. Ehm il territorio di Estria, Slovenia e doi era tutto sotto impero Ausburgo in 1850\. Eh, quando questo territorio era la zona più importante per tutto questo impero, allora aveva grande importanza economico per l'impero anche a quel punto è arrivato il primo eh problema con disease, allora malattie delle delle vigne, delle piante si chiama Oidio. Ovidio è una malattia che arriva su tutte state codi. A quel punto non hanno saputo reagire l'autorità, ma hanno capito che devono fare proposte perché per loro questa zona Nicola era molto importante. La religione a un certo punto era di portare qua vitinghi da Francia ma anche di Piemonte. Hanno messo tanti vitini di pontiolo e va messo mow cignon cabinet franc eh pino blancino gr eh blancas e e charnei e così è nato la cultura di avere tanti vini francesi in questo territorio e sono ancora molto popolari oggi. Mi piace molto Pino Bianco dal dallto Adriatico. Per me eh il pino bianco eh del Coglio di di questa zione è uno delle migliori del mondo. Vino bianco ovviamente ha eh qua ha molto da dire. vino non molto austo, un po' più eh modesto, ma molto con grande eleganza e da vini veramente strepico. Sì, sono completamente d'accordo. Quali sono alcune opportunità e sfide che vedi per i vini di Alto Adriatico oggi? Prima di tutto, la prima sfida credo che questo territorio deve sono ancora più conosciuto. Eh, per questo ho scritto il mio libro. Eh, faccio anche un po' più vista per il mio libro con la termine che si trova in grande territorio di Pim, ma si trova in tre stati. Questo messaggio è già fatti perché tu non pensi che zona venicola si può trovare in tre stati in tre paesi politici diversi, ma è proprio il caso qua e questa è una bella storia da raccontare e questo sto cercando di fare. E e questo è importante perché secondo me come importanza sul livello mondiale questo territorio compra e importante come Piemonte, come Bordeaux, come Bogna, magari un pochettino più piccola in totale come pro gi, ma non è solo importante quello. La qualità dei vini in grande su tutto questo territori è fantastico. In Croazia, in Slovenia e anche in Friuli si trovamente un paio delle migliori vine bianche del mondo e hanno anche una grande autenticità, una grande originalità e e questo un carte molto forte che il territorio deve ancora giocare, deve ancora giocare meglio. È quello che io dico che eh questa storia che un territorio ci trova così in tre pari è molto interessante da raccontare. Io credo che il il pubblico in Olanda, ma anche in Stati Uniti, ma anche in altri parti sarà interessante di sapere di più di questi territori, ma deve essere comunicati. Non non dobbiamo dimenticare di parlare di Piccolit. Assolutamente è una cosa favolosa. Sappiamo che questo è una delle tanti autentici in questo territorio e io ti posso anche dire che ho fatto un grande ricerca sui petinghi ho parlato con le varie università, ho studiato molto ho cercato di creare un testo molto scientifico, preparato, dedicato a tutti questi vitigni. untino con piccoli tra le più eleganti dell'Italia ma del mondo e in questi territori si trova soprattutto in colorientali c'era c'è ancora un po' in Colio c'è anche un po' ancora in Slovenia perché anche lì eh il confinoche dà grandi eh bianchi, anche se eh quasi nessuno fa un vino eh secco, si presta molto per fare per grandi dolci è uno dei grandi dolci che esiste liva mondiale del picco di davvero c'è altro uve che ricordo del duzzo per molto autentico di questo territorium se autentico di Friul c'è anche un po' in in Veneto, ma comunque in questa zone del Alto Adriatico c'è anche un uomo so che c in Soenia si chiamano Verducci ehm ma in Slovenia è quasi scomparso. Eh, anche in Italia sta scomparendo. È molto peccato. Perduc è un vitigno con molto carattere, un vitigno che un bucci è molto grande spesso e per questo è molto capace di di sopravvivere le malattie eccetera, le piogge e tanti problemi e dare vini. Ehm è più adatto per fare un vino dolce oppure un vino leggeroante. Ehm ci sono tutte due per giorni. Conosco anche un produttore che fa un eh esperimento con un vino molto macerato e molto lungo, ma era duro provino. Non so se lui continuò ancora. Eh, ma il vino più importante della Peduccia è senzoro la Ramondolo. Devi andare nella zona nord di di Friudine, sopra Udine. Lì ci sono i vigneti proprio al al fianco delle grande, le ultime eh pesanti e molto ripidi e lì si perduccio e fa un grande vino che si chiama Ramandolo. Mondolo e vino di Feluccio passiti nel autonomo per fare vin eh di UTI che sarà un vine dolce. Sono spettacolari, ovviamente sono eh vini che hanno un grande personalità persistenza molto ci sono uve più rare o insolite a cui una persona potrebbe prestare attenzione? Ma sì, e anche come in tutto il mondo, anche qua ci sono vecchi che sono quasi scomparsi oppure ci sono minori che meno rigidibilità. Per esempio in nella zona del CNER si trova il pino che si chiama Slatina, pino molto interessante e da vini bianchi leggeri e molto eleganti, freschi con grande eleganza. Un altro raro eh in piccoli neri si trova solo nella zona, una piccola zona nel nord della Grava sopra Udine, eh ci sono lì un paio di vecchi maani produttori che persistono a fare questi video, ma credo che fanno una cosa molto bene perché ehm questi figli hanno un rol, hanno sempre avuto un rol è importante che un paio di produttori si occupano di questi vitigni e fanno ancora vini per dimostrarci si può fare vini questi perché io dico sempre e la natura a noi ha offerto tanto vigni questo è un fatto per la natura e non dobbiamo noi dire che la natura ha sbagliato perché non si può dire questo. Invece il aspetto di marketing dicono "Sì, ma devi concentrare su un vitigno". Ma non sono diaco. Io preferisco altre pigione utilizzare le fitigne per fare una cosa bella e ci sono fitigni che magari non devono andare da solo, ma possono essere utilizzati per fare di mimo rubogni e ti possono nominare un paio. Per esempio, se vai a la zona di Penzano, al fianco del del fiume Tagliamento, nel nord fiuli si trova fetini come Cordenosa, Shoplin, eh Fumat, Piceri e un paio di questi sono nomi che quasi nessuno non conosce ancora però ci sono di due tre produtori che lo fanno ancora e persano a fare questi vini e io credo loro fanno un grande bello. Ieri sera ho bevuto una bottella di pinella. Pinella è un vitigno che non avevo ancora menzionato. È una delle tre vitigne autocoli della parola di Pipava perché Pinela viene da Pipava insieme con Gelen in Crownica. Eh, Pinela è carina. Poi Pinele non è solo si trova anche nel Veneto. Eh, questo di nuovo fa vedere come questi territori sono legati perché che è chiamato autentico e originale di Pipava è anche possibile. Ehm io credo che il più interessante delle zone di Papa è il perché un titigno molto elegante, rustico e con grande pinezza e le fanno molto bene, molto è una bella scoperta.È una cosa di vastità la diversità delle uve, no? in Italia, in questa regione, in tutto tutto il mondo, è una cosa che ci aiuta in questo momento di cambiamenti climatici, no? In che modo questa regione sta risentendo dei cambiamenti climatici? Parliamo naturalmente che il climatico è quello che si dice che c'è sempre più caldo nell'estate. Quando arrivano pioggia le pioggia sono più forti e quando c'è grandine ci sono grandine più forti. Le un paio di anni fa è stato colpito la zona di corio un po' di una volta da Grandine e l'anno dopo la stessa giorna di nuovo vuol dire che un paio di produtori hanno perso la pandemia e l'anno dopo di nuovo hanno perso il gran parte del pandemia è stato un disastro può capitare una volta è già un gran disastro ma se se capita due volte inseguito è ancora più grande e sappiamo che queste cosa succ succedono e questo sono un problema. L'altra cosa è che un paio di vitigni e questo è anche un discorso che io vogli e soprattutto i vitini francici che sono di una zona più nordica tipo P Grincio e Soggi maturano molto presto e se unino matura molto presto vuol dire che è maturo da vendemmiare già fino agosto. Ci sono produttori che iniziano a fare la vendemmia di di Pino Griccio e Sofnon Blan già nel 20 agosto. Questo vuol dire che il periodo sulla pianta è stato molto breve e secondo me questo non va bene a perché se il periodo eh è molto più lungo il il vino sviluppa più aromi, più profumi, più cose delicate, cose che tu vuoi avere vino. Allora, questo argomento è un grande argomento per tornare a tutti più autentici locali, perché loro sono più adatto al clima e vengono più tardi e questo danno anche vini buoni. Sì, sì, sono completamente d'accordo. Per cosa è conosciuta questa regione oltre al vino? E che consiglio daresti a chi soglia di programmare un viaggio in Alto Adriatico? Se vai al Alto Adriatico devi visitare le grandi città e Udine e Trieste e anche Aquileia. Aquileia è la città più storica di tutto questo territorio e Trieste è come Vienna al mare. È un sitita bellissima dove si sente tutto la storia ma anche bello. È una cita molto viva, molto attiva con bellissimi cafè storici del periodo austriaca. Ehm, e poi per esempio per chi vuole fare sport si può fare il Adriatico Trail si chiama ufficialmente Alpa Adriat, un parole inglese, ma si capisce anche inglesiano e inizia in Austria e finisce sud fare con macchina, ma anche a piedi, anche con la bicicletta si può fare in una vacanza o due o tre, come vuole. è molto popolare, arriva una persona da tutto il mondo per fare lo Alpa Adriatreon e ovviamente chi arriva in Colon che è proprio sul tre va a trovare produttori anche in Burda e poi anche in giorno di Triest e anche in Isriam. Allora sì, fa un bel percorso nella natura e un certo punto si può bere i milioni. Quindi altra cosa parliamo un po' della della cucina dei piatti del prosciutto di San Daniele, no? La cucina di questo territorio è spettacolare e la cucina è una delle più eh notevoli dell'Italia e poi quando qua pariamo dal territorio non solo Italia ma anche Slovenia e perché la cucina è così bella perché come abbiamo già notato questo è un territorio multiculturale e anche nella cucina si sentono perché ci sono lei italiani che è un grande cucina la italiana ma poi c'è la cucina in Austria Assburgo ha lasciato le strucli e le le cose tipiche quella zona lì e poi c'è un po' Moslavo che anche ha lasciato delle per esempio se vai a Slovenia trovi le capi che sono una cosa che più conosciuto dei bacani si trova anche qua è proprio un un mix di un fusi che si trova sul fiotto che è bellissimo. Allora, questo mix fa la gastrovia di festeri è fantastico. Poi ci sono dei prodotti molto interessanti come la rosa di gurizia in in tipo di cabbage, in tipo di eh tavolo che eh lasciate un po' sotto terra in inverno per maturare e poi cambia colore, poi va sui fiotti. è molto bello, molto buono, molto eh molto interessante. Ehm e poi uno dei grandi prodotti di questa stagione è la prossut io credo che questa stagione qua è il centro delluto su a livello mondiale e sotto si trova dappertutto da parte Pordenon a Udine, a Slovenia a Estria. In Estia c'è il prosciuto di Estia, estaski pros perché il nome slap si chiama prossut. Nel caso c'è il prosciuto del carso e oppure l' italiano si chiama il prosciutto del carcio e sono buoni e se vai ai calcolatori sopra trias nel loro hanno le le cave nelle nelle rocce dove fanno maturare lo produtto e poi anche in varie parti del figli è più famoso di tutti è il prosciuto di San Daniele e io dico sempre italiani è un popolo di artisti sono artisti e si vede anche San Daniele perché hanno capito che l'ambiente è molto particolare e questo vuol dire a cui armi hanno la sensibilità di capire le circostanze e fare il meglio di queste circostanze con un certo prodotto e queste cosa che io apprezzo molto. Non esiste un prosciuto così fine come il San Danielo. È buonissimo. Oh sì, è buonissimo. Ricordo bene, ho bisogno di tornare a questa regione solo per questo. E i vini certamente. Paul, grazie mille per queste bellissime informazioni e per la meravigliosa intervista che abbiamo fatto anche in inglese su questo argomento. I nostri ascoltatori possono ascoltare quellaintervista in inglese nella versione inglese di questo podcast che si chiama semplicemente modo di bere. Sono così felice che ci siamo incontrati per caso. Per favore spiega ai nostri ascoltatori come possono acquistare i tuoi libri e i tuoi dischi di musica per pianoforte, no? dove possono scoprire di più sul tuo lavoro. Allora, io ho cercato di trovarlo ehm in Stati Uniti qualche distruttore, qualche casa editrice. Stiamo ancora parlando. Oggi ho fatto un paio di comunicazioni e nel frattempo chi vuole ordinare il libro può semplicemente andare al mio sito internet [pavalbalco.com](http://pavalbalco.com/?ref=mododibere.com) e la trova. mandami una mail e il libro arriva. Ehm, poi sul mio sito trovate il mio mail e se qualcuno vuole più informazioni io sarò molto felici di dare le informazioni con grande piacere. Eh, allora se facciamo lo spelling, eh, p a u l b a l k [eh.com](http://eh.com/?ref=mododibere.com) e questo è il sito e sul sito si trova il email eccetera. Perfetto. Prima di andare puoi dirci qualcosa in più sulla tua vinificazione, i tuoi vini? Sto lavorando molto, eh, faccio due, quindi adesso eh ho iniziato a fare qualcori che lo per me e ho creato un sistema di far vini che sono un blending e ma questa è una lunga storica così importante che magari sarà anche per un prossimo podcast, chissà. Sì, grazie, grazie. E non vedo l'ora di di assaggiare. Sì, funziona. Sì, ma quel ma quel podcast dobbiamo fare alla stessa tavola insieme, così tu puoi bere il vino insieme con me, così non vero. Allora, e una domanda di più, due domande di più. Quante lingue parli e c'è un detto locale che ti piace? Me lo insegneresti? Allora, io sono olandese, questa è la mia lingua. Come avete sentito parlo un po' itiano, non s di pet. Eh, parlo ovviamente inglese, francese, tedesco, spagnolo, parlo un po' e poi ho imparato un po' la lingua slbo. Sostienici su Patreon, prendi la newsletter su [mododibere.com](https://www.mododibere.com/content/files/2026/08/mododibere-com-8.html). Iscriviti al canale YouTube @ mododibere per guardare lo spettacolo di viaggio Modo di Bere TV. La musica è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per il gruppo Ou. La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto e registrato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Montato da [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com). [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S4E6 My Husband's Duolingo Obsession (BONUS EPISODE) URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4-e6-my-husbands-duolingo-obsession/ Last updated: 2026-08-18T00:52:09.000Z My husband has a 2100 day Duolingo streak. He studies 14 languages a day. But does it work? _This post is for paying subscribers only._ ### ▷S4E5 Sibling Harmony at Georgian Royal Wine URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e5-georgian-royal-wine/ Last updated: 2026-09-08T04:19:05.000Z Ineza Karalashvili has been making wine in the Kakheti region of Georgia for over sixty years, together with her brother Tamaz. Their family has been making and selling wine for generations before that, with their forebears among the influential "Merchants of the First Guild" in the nineteenth century. Ineza, who recently turned 85, is the wine chemist responsible for quality control at Georgian Royal Wine, and Tamaz is the head winemaker. They work together with the family’s younger generation, including Rezo, Kate, and Irma. Irma, Ineza’s daughter, joins the Modo di Bere podcast New York City to translate for her mother and uncle as they call in from Georgia. Irma describes the Georgian feast, or "supra," including the personality traits required to serve as the "tamada," a sort of master of ceremonies who leads the complex toasting ritual. Irma recently had Rose Thomas over to her place for a miniature supra, where they tasted her family's delicious wines and Irma's incredible cooking, a skill she learned from her mother. She also teaches Rose Thomas several Georgian drinking sayings. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/ineza-karalashvili-jpg-format-original-1.jpg) ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/irma-27s-khinkali-format-original-1.jpg) ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/irma-kuprashvili-jpg-format-original-1.jpg) ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/ineza-and-tamaz-karalashvili-jpg-format-original-1.jpg) ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/tamaz-karalashvili-jpg-format-original-1.jpg) Clockwise from upper left: Ineza Karalashvili, Irma’s **khinkali* (a Georgian dumpling with meat and broth inside), Irma pouring wine at the Wines of Georgia trade tasting in New York City, Tamaz Karalashvili, A young Inez and Tamaz Learn more about the family's wines at their website: [https://grw-wine.com/en/](https://grw-wine.com/en/?ref=mododibere.com) Follow Georgian Royal Wine on Instagram: [https://www.instagram.com/georgian.royal.wine/](https://www.instagram.com/georgian.royal.wine/?ref=mododibere.com) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPrWhDUDZEd/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPrWhDUDZEd/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPjtbxUgIgR/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPjtbxUgIgR/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript ### \[0:00\] The Karalashvili winemaking family IRMA: It's so close to my heart, and touching every bottle of wine. I know that my mom's, my uncle's positive vibes are there. And this is very close and precious to me. And I know that when I say a real wine, I mean it. RT: Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. ### \[0:40\] Sponsor: Culture Without Borders I've popped out to my Brooklyn fire escape to announce this month's sponsor, Culture Without Borders, Language Collective. You might remember hearing from CWB co-founder, Lindsay Szper, who did a two-part episode in season one. If you've been meaning to improve your Spanish, CWB has a free opportunity for you and I'll tell you more about it later in the episode. Today I'm extremely pleased to be talking about wines from the country of Georgia with the family behind the company Georgian Royal Wine. So I have here with me in New York, Irma, and her mother and uncle, Ineza and Tamaz, are joining us remotely from the Kakheti (კახეთი) region of Georgia. So each of these family members will be answering different questions and Irma will be translating for Ineza and Tamaz. Before we begin, I want to let all of our listeners know that this is a listener-supported podcast so please go to patreon.com/mododibere and sign up to become a supporter now so that we can keep doing these cool shows. \[NOTE: **We are no longer using Patreon!** Become a member [right here](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e14-tazzelenghe-the-tongue-cutter/#/portal/) to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\] Welcome! IRMA: Thank you! Thank you for hosting us. It's a pleasure and honor to be here, kind of ambassador between the Georgian Royal Wine and my family here in New York — it's going to be great. ### \[2:08\] Ineza, Tamaz & Irma's roles RT: Let's have each of you introduce yourselves and explain your role in the winery. IRMA \[translating for Ineza\]: My name is Ineza Karalashvili. I am 84 and working for the wine for more than 60 years now. And at GRW, I am overseeing the physical and chemical analysis of wine, ensuring its quality and compliance with standards. RT: Great. Thank you, Ineza. Now let's hear from Tamaz. IRMA \[translating for Tamaz\]: My name is Tamaz Karalashvili. I work in the winery since 1966, as a winemaker and technologist, and he has a title of the first great technician. So he's doing everything, like, from the very first step of harvesting and producing wine, making sure that it has compliance with the requirements, and control, and taste, and aroma, and everything. RT: And Irma, what's your role in the winery, as you're living here in the United States? IRMA: So actually, I don't do wine. I am just trying and making sure that it's popularized and that people in the U.S. chase a real wine, because it's not just a wine. It's so close to my heart and touching every bottle of wine. I know that my mom's, my uncle's positive vibes are there and this is very close and precious to me. And I know that when I say a real wine, I mean it. So I just want American people to drink a real wine, not just wine. ### \[5:13\] What makes Georgian wine special? RT: What makes Georgian wine so special? IRMA: First of all, the quality and its chemical and physical descriptions that makes it different from the other wines. Georgian wines can easily compete with French and Italian wines. The difference is only in the price. Unfortunately, Georgian wines are cheaper than Italian and French wines, but the quality is never less than Italian and French wines. And can I mention technology? What makes Georgian wines different from the other country wines is that Georgian wines are fermented and kept in a huge vessel, which is called qvevri (ქვევრი) in Georgian, and this ქვევრი is buried in the ground, and it gives a special distinct taste to the wine, and makes it different, absolutely different, from the other countries' wines. ### \[5:45\] Why is the company called Royal? RT: Why is the company called Royal? What does it mean? \[TAMAZ, speaking Georgian\] IRMA: The name Karalashvili belonged to a high rank, and the ancestors also belonged to this higher rank, and these wines deserve to be called Georgian royal wines. And our family had their own heraldic symbol, which is located on the bottle as well, and as I remember, in my childhood we had a huge picture on the wall of this heraldic symbol of our family. ### \[6:32\] Ineza's 60 years in wine RT: Ineza, how did you get started making wine 60 years ago? IRMA \[translating for Ineza\]: Yeah, as soon as I graduated from the institute, at the age of 24, 25-ish, Ineza started working in the winery as a chemist, wine chemist, and was responsible for wine quality. Since then she never left this profession, and together with her brother they are working together for more than about 65 years now — yeah, they're making wine together. ### \[7:39\] The Wines of the Kakheti Region RT: Okay, so the next question is for Tamaz. I would love to know more about the Kakheti region where your winery is located. IRMA \[translating for Tamaz\]: Kakheti (კახეთი) region is the eastern part of Georgia, well known as a winemaker region of Georgia, and the winery is located on the left bank of the river Duruji (დურუჯი). So this is a great location for grapes to grow, and Kvareli (ყვარელი) has some varieties that are growing in that region, and the only place that can call wine Kindzmarauli (ქინძმარაული) is Kvareli, because Kindzmarauli is the microzone. It's not the name of the grapes, it's the name of the microzone. And this microzone is well-known for its micro elements, which is unique. And Saperavi (საფერავი) grown in this microzone territory is very tasty, it's full of high sugar. And wine made by Saperavi is unique from Georgia. And apart from Saperavi, we grow Rkatsiteli (რქაწითელი), Tsinandali (წინანდალი), and so many other varieties. ### \[8:33\] A family business, generations deep RT: Okay, so I understand that your company has grown, and now you're a pretty big company there in Kakheti, which is wonderful. Congratulations. I understand that winemaking is a part of life for many Georgian families, even on a tiny scale. I recorded another interview with a Georgian scholar who told me a story about someone digging a hole in his small garage to bury a qvevri. So maybe, would you please tell me some of the ways that your family members in the past have engaged in winemaking and the wine trade over the generations? IRMA: So actually my ancestors, my mother's and father's side, both started many, many years ago making wine and selling wine, and they belonged to the higher rank — it was called merchant of the first guild. So a merchant of the first guild was a title in the Russian Empire granted to prominent and wealthy business people who made specific qualifications. This rank came with special privileges and responsibilities. They were responsible for the quality, and the privilege was exemption from military service for all large businesses, but at the same time they paid the higher taxes and they maintained the quality of the wine in the country. So my great ancestors, Tamaz and Ineza's grandparents, belonged to this first guild merchants. After them, Tamaz and Ineza's parents had a home cellar in their home, like for their home usage, and were trying different methods and technologies, which is Kakhetian-style technology, and European, and later on Tamaz's son Rezo — my cousin Rezo Karalashvili — created and established this huge company, and more family members joined the company. Kate Karalashvili, who is the company, and Rezo is selling and advertising, and Ineza is responsible for the control, and Tamaz is the main person, the winemaker. So every single person is involved in this family business, and that's lovely — that's so lovely. (gentle music) ### \[11:19\] Sponsor: Culture Without Borders Spanish learners needed. Culture Without Borders Language Collective believes the best way to learn language is through friendship. If you've been wishing you had real people to practice your Spanish with, CWB is looking for more English-speaking Spanish learners to join their monthly language exchange. These online meetups are completely free for participants. Visit cwbcollective.com and subscribe to their newsletter to get the dates for next month's exchange. That's cwbcollective.com. I'll put the link on the screen or in the notes. ### \[12:04\] Ineza the scientist RT: Ineza, I hear that you have worked as a chemist and now you're working in the science of the winery. I want to learn more about you and your life as a scientist. IRMA: For many years, since the first day when she joined the winery, she has had a special dedication and education, and takes care of it as her own child. So she got requalified five times, and she has trained tons of generations of students. And, yeah, winemaking, and as a part of the wine, she made a unique Georgian brandy. It's called Koniaki (კონიაკი). Koniaki. Yeah, Koniaki. Koniaki. Yeah, it's brandy, Georgian brandy, it's very like a velvet flavor and very popular in our city of Kvareli, and not only Kvareli. And apart from this, she's crazy about flowers, plants — she has tons of plants and I have no idea when she finds time to take care of her plants. And she's cooking, she reads a lot, she cooks amazing cakes, and I remember in my childhood when somebody said, "Oh, you are Ineza's daughter, you must be a master in cooking," because Ineza was a well-known cook. And again, she is gardening — in every season she has each type of greens, grown in Rezo's garden, yeah. And again, she's at the top of every news in show business, she knows everything. So again, I am asking, when do you sleep, Mommy? Because she's working 8 to 10 hours a day, she reads, she's still cooking. And I have to add — ### \[14:15\] An inseparable sibling bond I bet that I've never, ever seen and heard any relationship between siblings like they have. She, at age 84, she still is asking, "Did you get breakfast? Did you get lunch?" She's bringing lunch for her brother, and cooks for him, and asking, "Do you feel good?" So they are coming through all their life together. This is so special and so cute, them taking care of each other. RT: Oh, that's beautiful, yeah! IRMA: Feeling each other professionally and teaching each other, because anytime when it comes to my mom's work, Tamaz knows, and vice versa. So, yeah, they are trying to support each other, to help each other professionally or as, professionally or as siblings. And they respect and value and appreciate each other's experience. They're just trying to support each other as much as they can, and they are feeling each other's experience. ### \[16:08\] Supra: Georgian Toasting Ritual RT: I love to learn about ways of giving toasts and saying cheers from around the world. And I have heard that Georgia has an elaborate toasting ritual. So I'd love to know more about that. \[TAMAZ, speaking Georgian\] IRMA \[translating for Tamaz\]: So, Tamada (თამადა), who is a leader of the Supra (სუფრა) — like, feast — is a special person. Doesn't matter whether it is a small or big event, every Supra has its Tamada, like its leader, toastmaker, and its kind of organizer, and there is a special person who must be chosen as the Tamada. Not everyone can serve as Tamada, because the Tamada must have qualities like — they must be very smart, must speak well, have a sense of humor, some organizational skills, and they have to orchestrate the table. As for the toasts, Georgians say Gaumarjos (გაუმარჯოს), which means — let's say, if we want to say to Rose Thomas, we should say "Gaumarjos, Rose Thomas" — Gagimarjos (გაგიმარჯოს), like it's a toast to you. So there is a special order of saying toasts in Georgia, starting from the toast to God, thanking for this day that we are together, healthy. Then one of the first toasts in Georgia is for peace, which is very important for Georgian people — after so many wars during the centuries, peace has very specific reasons and importance. And then they go to toast to parents, children, siblings, young generation, people who passed away, and friends, and so on. For Georgians, drinking wine is not the method of getting drunk. For Georgians, it's a process of getting pleasure and communication, relationships, and singing is also an inseparable part of Georgian Supra, because we are well known for our folklore and polyphonic songs. So when it comes to Supra, everybody knows that the Tamada is actually leading — the Tamada is giving you permission and giving guidelines when to sing, when to say something. ### \[19:21\] Making kosher wine in Kakheti RT: I want to go to one though, that sounds wonderful. You should definitely do it. Tamaz and Ineza, I read that you are also making kosher wines there in the Kakheti. I would love to hear that story. IRMA: So Georgian people and Jewish people have a tradition of friendship for many, many years and centuries, and that makes us — when Jewish partners offered to make kosher wines in our vineyard, we were more than happy to do so. And the technological part is done by Jewish people, and we're producing, like, dry wines and different varieties of wines which are done actually again by the Jewish workforce. RT: That's so interesting. Thank you so much, Tamaz and Ines, for coming on the show. I'm really happy to meet you. It's really a pleasure. I hope to come one day and visit your winery. I just want to know if there's anything else that you would like people to know about your wines and your family. IRMA: Thank you so much for your time, for having us here, and for your smile and such a cordial meeting. Yeah, wine is so important for Georgia, and that's why our ancestors' sayings said that wine for a newborn baby \[is like\] mother's milk, and for elderly, wine is like mother's milk — as beneficial as mother's milk. RT: I love that, I love that. Is that a saying? IRMA: Yeah, that's a saying, and now — we have plenty of sayings, and as Georgia is a winemaker country, we have a lot of sayings, if you want. RT: Yeah, oh yeah, we have some more. ### \[21:15\] Georgian Drinking Sayings + Proverbs IRMA: Yeah, so — wine makes a foolish man talk, and silences a wise man. RT: That's beautiful. Yeah. Could you pronounce it in Georgian? IRMA: Yeah. So: Ghvino munj katss alaparakebs, da brdzens daamunjebs (ღვინო მუნჯ კაცს ალაპარაკებს და ბრძენს დაამუნჯებს). Another saying is in Georgian: Mtvrali kaci — kargi kaci (მთვრალი კაცი — კარგი კაცი). RT: I love that. That's beautiful. IRMA: Yeah. And another one is: Ghvinoshi upro meti damkhrchvala, vidre tskalshi (ღვინოში უფრო მეტი დამხრჩვალა, ვიდრე წყალში) — more people drown in wine than in the water. RT: Oh, thank you so much. It was wonderful to meet you too. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. And thank you for all your support and all your work, and for everything the whole family does to make these beautiful wines. It's wonderful to have you. Thank you, Irma, for being their daughter and niece \[and helping bridge this conversation for us\]. IRMA: It's a real honor for me to be a part of the family. IRMA: Thank you so much for having us today, and we indeed look forward to having you in Georgia, at our winery, to let you taste our wines and host you with our family. Thank you again. It was an incredible experience for us. And again, wine means so much for Georgian people — yeah, it's our lives, full of wine, and it's not just the wine. It's a passion, a dedication to every drop of wine. See you in Georgia! ### \[23:06\] Outro RT: Support us on Patreon. Grab the newsletter at mododibere.com and subscribe to the YouTube channel @mododibere to watch the travel show Modo di Bere TV. Music for the show was composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou. Purchase their music at the link in the notes. \[NOTE: **We are no longer using Patreon!** Become a member [right here](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e14-tazzelenghe-the-tongue-cutter/#/portal/) to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\] > **SPANISH LEARNERS NEEDED!** *This episode is brought to you by Culture Without Borders Language Collective, our exclusive sponsor for the month of October 2025\. If you've been wishing for real people to practice your Spanish with, CWB is looking for more English-speaking Spanish learners to join their monthly language exchange.These online meetups are completely FREE for participants.* > > *Visit* [*cwbcollective.com*](http://cwbcollective.com/?ref=mododibere.com) *and subscribe to their newsletter to get the dates for the next meetup.* Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ My Husband's Duolingo Obsession ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4-e6-my-husbands-duolingo-obsession/) [ Glasvin Founder David Kong ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e4-david-kong-glasvin/) ### ▷S4E4 How to Swirl with Glasvin Founder David Kong URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e4-david-kong-glasvin/ Last updated: 2026-09-04T23:45:04.000Z David Kong loved drinking wine out of expensive handblown glasses but hated the sinking feeling every time one got broken. He wanted a handblown wine glass at a more accessible price, so started his own company to make it exist! David is a lifelong foodie and classical music fan who always wanted to start his own business. Now he sells his Glasvin wine glass line to restaurants and wine lovers all over the world. Rose Thomas identifies wine glass shape as a hot button for consumer anxiety as well as an opportunity for personal expression. David and RT talk about how much you should spend on a wine glass, how wine glasses are made, the purpose for different wine glass shapes, and how swirling just hits different in a light-as-a-feather handblown glass. Check out David's glasses at [glas.vin](https://glas.vin/?ref=mododibere.com) Follow Glasvin on Instagram [instagram.com/glas.vin](https://www.instagram.com/glas.vin?ref=mododibere.com) They also discuss how blind tasting can be a great opportunity to learn from people who have a different culinary and agricultural background, and have an idea to host a dinner party where people blind taste wine AND classical music (identifying the composer and piece). What do you think, should we have that party? Do you know anyone who could blind taste wine and classical music? Let us know who's got that skill set in New York! RT's glass tastevin is by glass artist Marc Kornbluh: [Instagram.com/kornbluhglass](https://www.instagram.com/kornbluhglass/?ref=mododibere.com) The book that we reference around 38 minutes is [Wine Girl](https://www.harpercollins.com/products/wine-girl-victoria-james?variant=32152294359074&ref=mododibere.com) by Victoria James. > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPM8PptDVNG/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPM8PptDVNG/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPUBg-zDYri/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPUBg-zDYri/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript ## David Kong, Glasvin founder (0:00) DK: The key is to be able to use it every night and not, not like buy something expensive that you feel like, "Oh, I don't want to break this," because, you know, I'd only take it out for special wines. That's not the point. The point is to try to use great glassware every night when you're drinking just your everyday kind of wine. And that's what we built our company based on. ## Welcome to Modo di Bere (0:23) RTB: Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. My guest for the show today is David Kong, the entrepreneur behind Glasvin, a new company that makes hand-blown wine glasses designed in New York City that are now being used in top restaurants around the world. David, welcome. DK: Thanks for having me. RTB: Yeah, I'm a fan of these beautiful glasses, which we're going to talk about, the Glasvin glasses, a lot. But first I want to know, what's your story? How did you get into wine? And then how did you end up starting a wine glass company? DK: Yeah. So I grew up in Canada, and from a very young age, I realized I enjoyed food a lot. My parents didn't really like food that much, they weren't very good at cooking. And so I kind of started cooking for myself. And I met some people that also liked food, and this was like, this is all like high school kind of time. And then in university, I guess I was now allowed to drink because I was above the age cutoff, and, you know, I started trying some of these things, and it took a little bit of time, but after a while I was like, yeah, if you like food, you're probably gonna also like wine, 'cause those two things just kind of pair with each other. ## Canada's wine and drinking culture (1:49) RTB: What is the drinking age in Canada? DK: It's 19 where I'm from. It could be, it's 18 in French Canada. And so a lot of people actually, when they're 18, 19, they go over to Montreal to drink. RTB: And where did you grow up? DK: I grew up in Toronto, which is not the best wine region, unfortunately, but it's getting better and better. So every time I go back to Toronto, the wine culture is just so much better. And by contrast, Montreal is one of the best wine areas. So a lot of people from Ontario just do weekend trips to Montreal just to drink like super, super good wine. RTB: Wine drinking culture. DK: Yes, yes. RTB: And there's also some wine production in Canada as well. DK: Right. There are — there's great ones in Ontario, and there's also great ones near Montreal, funny enough, I guess in Quebec. I don't actually know exactly where in Quebec they are, but yeah, they're really into that Natty kind of style in Quebec, and so they have some very nice Natty winemakers there. RTB: I have been to Montreal one time, and I found it just really, really wonderful. I'd love to travel in Canada more. DK: It's so close to New York too, so you could just literally do a weekend trip. And it's so fun. And if you like skiing, then you can go up and do some runs and then come back. It's a great place. RTB: So you got into food, you got more and more into wine, and then at what point were you like, "Okay, I'm gonna make wine glasses"? ## From hedge fund to wine glasses (3:24) DK: This was around 2018, end of 2018, the Fed raises interest rates and stock markets go down like 10% or something. And I was at a hedge fund at the time, and it was very obvious that this was not going to end up working out very, very well. So my options were to go to a different hedge fund or do something on my own. And I've always wanted to own my own business, so I actually stopped working and started my own business, and I actually started a software business. So this was early, early 2019, a few months into starting that software business, I'm like, "Okay, well, this is going to take a while. This isn't going to make me any money anytime soon." I was living in New York at the time, so I was like, "Okay, let's see if there's any faster ways to get to like revenue effectively." ## The shower idea for Glasvin (4:10) DK: And so, yeah, it was just like a random thought one morning. Maybe it was like in the shower or something, when I'm like, "Hey, I should do this glassware thing." And the idea was simple, right? Because the idea was that, okay, there's these nice glasses, they're hand-blown, and I've seen them at all these nice restaurants, and I love using them, I only exclusively use those, but they're too expensive. And every time I break one, I'd feel like crap because it was like 80 bucks a glass. Yeah, right. Yeah. So the idea was very obvious, it was just like, how was I going to accomplish that. It took maybe a year from having that idea to having the product on the market. RTB: So did it start with a question, like, "Would it be possible to make a less expensively priced hand-blown glass?" Or did you already believe that or know that you could? DK: I knew I could. I knew that I could from various things I already knew, but I didn't know how great it was going to be, I guess. Because when I started, first of all, I wasn't even thinking about restaurants, and now that's like 60% of my business. And I didn't think about, like, because now we have a slightly less expensive glass. So I didn't think about that at first. So when I started, it was only one glass, and now we have like 20 different glasses, we have cocktail glasses and all that stuff. So yeah, I didn't know how prolific it was going to become. It was meant, like I said, it was really meant at the time to be a way to make a little bit of money while I was working on the software business. Now this is bigger than the software business. So I mean, we'll see what happens, but congratulations. RTB: Yeah, tell me more about having this idea in the shower. I would like to have a less expensively priced hand-blown wine glass to use for myself at home, to what you just described now, where you have all these products and you're in restaurants around the world. What happened between those two moments? ## Bootstrapped, no investors (6:02) DK: So we're a bootstrapped company, we don't have any investors, I own 100% of the business, it's my own money at stake. So I don't do anything ultra, ultra risky, I just move very slowly. If I'm emailing a lot of people and they're all saying, "Hey, this is really nice, but it's too fragile to be used in my restaurant," well, you know, I'm thinking, okay, well we should make a thicker version of our glass. So that's what we did. Little by little, we just add a little bit more to our product offering, and everything we add is really based on what our customers are asking for. So I know that I'm not taking a tremendous risk by doing something totally out of thin air. ## Why hand-blown glass? (6:44) RTB: Okay. So why hand-blown glass? Why was that so important to you as a wine drinker, and why did you focus your company on hand-blown wine glasses? DK: If you're serious about wine and you really like wine and drinking good wine effectively, there's almost nothing else that you're gonna use, you're going to use a hand-blown wine glass. It is just so much nicer and better. So put it another way: if you have nice glasses, you could probably buy slightly less expensive wine and it'll taste even better, right? So even from a monetary perspective, there's nothing that's more important than the wine, other than the wine glass that you're using. And so your options really are, okay, do I want this $80 glass, or do I want the Glasvin $40 glass? RTB: Right, right. Yeah. So what is it about it being hand-blown that makes the wine taste better? That makes the experience nicer, right? DK: The key is that it's thin and it's light. Right? And it's very hard to achieve those two qualities in a machine-made glass. There are some people that can do it, but it's very, very rare, there's probably only a few factories in Europe that can do that. RTB: Cool. I mean, it is very thin and light. Is this more about user experience, or is there something in the physics of it that actually improves the wine? DK: I'm confident it's not the physics, it could be like a placebo effect or something like that. But yeah, you can ask anyone, like, try it in this glass, try it in like a normal glass, and the rating on that wine is just gonna go up like 20% or something. RTB: I see, I see. Well, I think we need to put some into these hand-blown wine glasses. DK: I think it's because it's so thin and light, so it's not as heavy, and so you don't have to think as much about the act of lifting. And when you're drinking wine, you're obviously drinking little sips, you're just coming back and forth like a thousand times at night, and, yeah, and then swirling, and things like, just the entire experience is entirely — it's an easy swirl. RTB: Yeah. So we're having a Chianti Classico Monteraponi from 2022. DK: Well, it's just great because we just did the Convivio event, which is this big Italian wine festival two days ago, and, yeah, we drank a lot of Chianti. ## How Glasvin cuts the price (9:53) RTB: Well, I have had wine from your glasses at restaurants and wine fairs, and did find it to just be a pleasurable experience for sure. How much were you able to, let's say for your entry-level line, or maybe your main glass and then going into your entry-level line — how much were you able to cut down the price of the glass, and how did you accomplish that? DK: So we're basically about half the price of our competitors on the high end, and then our lower end is like an extra 30% less expensive, and they're both hand-blown, it's just the less expensive one is thicker. It's so nice, it's not as nice, but that's why it's 30% less expensive. RTB: Yeah. Wow. So how were you able to make it cheaper? DK: Well, we have a few major differences versus our competitors. One is we make it in a lower-cost jurisdiction, so we make it in Asia, whereas our competitors mostly make it in Europe. And you can see our competitors kind of going that way as well, because they're going away from Central Europe to more like Eastern Europe. And so they're trying to lower their costs there as well. We just went very, very East instead — that really helps. DK: But the other main thing is we are a direct-to-consumer company. So basically it's me, and I'm the person that does everything between the factory and the actual end consumer. And you'll see our competitors, they go through importers, distributors, their companies have, you know, 30 people working for them. We have — I'm one person working for them. So there's no overhead, everything's super efficient, all the shipping is extremely efficient. So a lot of these direct-to-consumer companies, yes, they don't have a retailer or distributor or whatever, but then they spend 50% of their revenue on marketing. And so 50% of what you pay on this glass is just basically paying for the marketing that you're getting. Our best marketing channel is restaurants. So we sell this stuff to the restaurants, and then you go to the restaurant, you see the glass, and you come and buy it on our website, and so that's free marketing. So yeah, all those things let us have a much stronger offering at a better price. ## Word of mouth marketing (11:24) RTB: So how did you initially get the word out to the restaurants about your glasses? Did you just kind of run around and show it to people? DK: No, no, no, we didn't — literally didn't do any marketing, it just caught on. The people who like wine glasses, who like wine and like wine glasses, some percentage of them work for restaurants. And so we got it into a few restaurants to start, probably like two or three restaurants in the first year, but they were some good restaurants. They had some Michelin stars — Gabriel Kreuther, two Michelin stars; 63 Clinton, one Michelin star. People who own restaurants or work at restaurants also go to their friends' restaurants, and they see our glass and they're like, "Oh, can I buy that? Oh, that's a good price, that's half the price of what I'm currently paying." And so it just kind of snowballed, I would say, from there. Now we do do some kind of quote-unquote marketing, like, for example, the way you found out about me was effectively us marketing, because we give out these glasses for these festivals that you were at. ## Meeting Ian D'Agata (12:35) RTB: Like I said, I definitely have tried your glasses before, but I was at the Ian D'Agata event. He's my Italian wine grapes and vines hero. He had a beautiful small fair in New York, and there were your glasses, and I was like, you know, tasting 14 different Nascettas at the masterclass and just being like, "Oh yeah, this is a really pleasurable experience." DK: Yeah. So we sponsored that event, and that event is very — like we're really focused on professionals. So these events, I mean, if there's some consumers there, that's obviously fine, but really what I'm trying to do is make sure that every single person who buys wine in New York City knows who I am. I mean, you might have known me before, but these events basically help us achieve that. ## Choosing your first glass (13:10) RTB: Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Okay, so let's say you're more of a $20 to $40 bottle of wine person, are you kind of on the cusp of — you know, you're taking some notes, you're finding out about some stuff, you've got your independent wine store where you go and you ask a lot of questions, and you listen to this podcast — let's talk to that consumer. You have a wine glass for them. If they haven't tried a hand-blown wine glass before, how is that going to potentially elevate their experience? DK: Yeah. So I'm going to steal something that one of my competitors said, I think it was Riedel, which is something like, if your glass is about the price of the bottle that you're buying or you usually drink, that's probably a pretty good place to start. So if you're between 20 and $40, okay, let's say $30\. Yeah, there's glasses on my website for about $30\. The key is to be able to use it every night and not, not like buy something expensive that you feel like, "Oh, I don't want to break this," 'cause, you know, I'd only take it out for special wines. That's not the point. The point is to try to use great glassware every night, when you're drinking just your everyday kind of wine. And that's what we built our company based on. RTB: And that's why it caught on so much, because it just did not exist, and people were like, "Oh my God, here's this beautiful glass." And it was less expensive before me, DK: If you had 30-ish dollars to spend, you would be buying a nicer machine-made glass, but it's just materially worse, in my opinion, to what we have. ## Machine-made vs. hand-blown (14:52) RTB: Talk to me about the process. I mean, hand-blown, I think people have seen glass blowing, you know, like each of these glasses is handmade, basically, right? Absolutely. As opposed to, what's the process for a machine-made glass? DK: There's different levels of machine-made. A lot of the machine-made stuff is just a mold, and often it'll be molded differently, and then those just glued together. That's a lot of the stuff that's out there, and they're really not very nice. Then there's, you know, higher-end ones that don't feel like a mold. I don't actually know how exactly they're made. And then there's really high-end machine-made glasses, which are — they're basically trying to make it kind of like a hand-blown glass. It's just that a machine is kind of hand-blowing it, effectively. So those actually end up being quite nice. Obviously hand-blown glasses — like, you're basically blowing the bowl, and then you're attaching this stem, and then you're stretching the stem, and it's like a very complicated process. But they're very, very good at pumping out lots and lots of glass. So you can actually get machine-made — sorry, hand-blown glasses for like a pretty good price, you know? So it's not like — you would think it would be more expensive if a human were actually making this. RTB: Right. But actually, you were able to find a way to make — DK: Well, even my competitors, like even at $80, it's like, "Okay, that's not horrible for a person making it." Like effectively what it's telling you is that one person can make like a glass a minute or something, you know. ## Traditional crafts and Venice (16:14) RTB: Otherwise, yeah. I really love, you know, kind of traditional crafts and stuff, and it's definitely a part of caring about wine. You get interested in barrel makers and the people who are making the vessels and everything, and it kind of fits into people who are nerdy about wine — could also start to get nerdy about the glass. In fact, I got to go to Venice a couple of times, which made me, of course, really interested in the glass and history of glass. And then I have a friend — actually, back from Nebraska, where I grew up and went to college. Okay, so talking about nerdy things. ## A glass tastevin from Marc Kornbluh (17:00) My friend, Marc Kornbluh, who is — I believe Kornbluh Glass — I'll put the link to his Instagram in the show notes. But he made me this, he makes hand-blown glass, and he made me this glass tastevin. Yeah, that's cool. Yes! This is this very nerdy old-fashioned sommelier thing that was like, "Oh, I'm gonna taste the glass wine from this little glass." There aren't very many people — it really is something that isn't really in use anymore, since actually you can smell and taste the wine better in this. ## The Italian sommelier tradition (17:29) You see it too with the Association of Italian Sommeliers, they wear like a metal tastevin. And I love those guys. I think if I get another certification, I might try to do it in Italy, because they're just so amazing. The Italian sommeliers, and they have these great outfits. And actually, the first time I saw someone wearing the tastevin with the — it was like a metal one — and this beautiful, long black vest, floor-length apron that goes all the way around, they just looked like a priest or something. And I thought it was just a person making kind of a goth fashion statement, in Italy. And I was like, wow. And then, you know, I got more involved with Italian wine events and saw these sommeliers wearing these tastevins, synchronized pouring, and I was just like, wow, you know, it just feels like this art form. This is fairly arcane but a really fun item. So thank you, Mark. RTB: So I love this idea that you were able to make the pleasure of wine more accessible by creating this beautiful glass at a much more accessible price point. But, you know, it's interesting, the questions that I get from people who are getting into wine often involve glassware, and there's a lot of emotion around it. There's a lot of kind of fear, like, "Am I doing it wrong?" It's interesting, because I think it was really quite some time ago — maybe 20 or 30 years ago, I don't know that much about the history of it, I think it was Riedel — there were some wine glass companies. And also the expert advice was that you had to have a different wine glass for every style. You had a Burgundy glass and a Bordeaux glass and this glass and this glass, the wisdom was you cannot enjoy the wine unless you have the exact right bowl shape. I've spent some time in wine regions where people really got into that, specifically for Friuli-Venezia Giulia — I was able to, for the Modo di Bere TV show, spend time with producers who probably really came into their own around that time and invented their own glass shape specifically for their own wines. And I wondered sometimes if the closeness to Venice also had something to do with that, as well as sort of the moment in time. RTB: But, you know, I've also talked to people who said, "Look, wine is great in everything, but actually — " there's an interview with Michela Musolino, she was like, at the point where she started to feel like it was too much, you know, sort of disconnected from her understanding of this Italian farm product, was the moment. And I've heard other people bring this up too — people would come to a restaurant with their own wine glasses in a little suitcase, like, "I can't possibly drink out of whatever wine glasses you have here." DK: Those are my customers, by the way. RTB: Yes, yes, yes. DK: We actually have great packaging where people can put their glass into. RTB: Okay, and, you know, you got a wine suitcase. DK: Yeah, well, it literally comes with the purchase. So you don't have to — RTB: Carry it around. DK: Exactly, and that's a great form of marketing for us. RTB: I don't know how you feel about this, because I basically, when I was in Friuli, I was drinking out of these beautiful glasses that were custom-made for each wine, and just these aromas jumping out at me. I was like, "Oh, you know what, there is something to this." I didn't feel like it was all just a way to sell more wine glasses. But then, on the other hand, I do feel like in just the general way that people get turned off from wine, from it being this, you know, luxury product, or this ivory tower, or something like that. ## David's wine glass pet peeve (20:57) Do you want to hear my pet peeve? Yes. Okay. ## RT hates those little glasses (22:41) RTB: There's a lot of ways I feel really passionately that we could make wine less pretentious and more accessible, bring new wine drinkers into the wine world. But I feel like there's — some of the faults, pun intended, I guess, in wine culture — I feel like there's this weird masochistic reaction of wine bars in New York City, hot take, serving wine in these little tiny sherry glasses, right? And I feel like we're just kind of punishing ourselves, or acting like the fancy wine glass became the symbol of taking ourselves too seriously. And so what really strikes me is when I go to a place with a great wine list, and the food is taken really seriously and served really well, and then I'm served in this weird tiny little glass, and it just — I don't get it, and it drives me crazy. Why are we doing that? DK: I actually think that came from European wine bars, actually — it's these little small glasses. RTB: Okay. DK: And I'm not sure why they went that way, but it might be a space constraint thing, where, you know, obviously it's nice to have a longer glass, but this also takes up a lot of space. Also, I've seen smaller stem sizes in Japan, which also makes sense, because they also don't have very much room there. If the stem is small and it's still like a nice glass — we sell some glasses like that, where, actually, we have a collaboration with Raj Parr, where it's kind of like a short-stem glass, it's a little bit smaller, it's meant to be like a tasting glass. They are RTB: Cute. Yeah, this idea of the tasting glass. Yeah, but then the opening is so small. Right, you know. DK: Which is not good. RTB: It's not good, and we need to fix that. To me, they look like a sherry glass. Right. But what I feel like — I need to study more and learn why sherry glasses are tiny like that, but, I mean, if it's a really small diameter — which, like, if you're listening to this and you're like, "Oh my God, how could I possibly get this right?" I will tell people who are intimidated by wine glasses to start: you just need a stem. Yes. The wine glass needs to be — you see, not blue or something — right. There should be an opening here that's — yeah — not too small. Like, that's why people now say not to drink sparkling wine out of a flute, because a smaller opening prevents aromas. So all you really need is a glass that's big enough to get your nose into, that has a stem, where you can appreciate the color. DK: I mean, I didn't invent these dimensions, but this is basically what a universal wine glass looks like. RTB: Right. DK: If you don't know what you like, you can drink sherry out of this, and it'll taste perfectly fine. RTB: And this is where the experts have come to it. You know, I think there was some fatigue. And now most companies have the advent of the universal wine glasses. Yes. DK: Oh, thank God. Yeah. So there's a pushback for sure against that theory. It's also, like, I'm not against the idea of having, you know, a red wine glass and a white wine glass and a Burgundy glass — maybe if it's really big — or, like, not a flute, but like a tulip thing for Champagne, I think that's totally fine and totally valid. But what I do have an issue is if you go on one of these people's websites, and literally there's like 300 different items on their website, and it's just glasses — that's very confusing for people. I forget which — Harvard, HBS person, whatever — called it the paradox of choice. RTB: Yeah. DK: That's what we want to stay away from. We think simpler is better, it's also better for pricing and all that stuff as well, if we have fewer SKUs, it's just so much less confusing for our consumers. ## The stemless glass trend (24:40) RTB: So yeah. Yeah, yeah. I noticed there was a big trend of stemless as well, and for a while it wasn't just wine bars with little bitty sherry glasses, but it was all the new restaurants. It's maybe 10, 15 years ago, I really felt like people were making me drink my wine out of, like, a candle votive, just this tiny little thing. And I felt like that was a way of saying, "No, we don't take ourselves too seriously, you know, wine is fun." There was something about the stem — I mean, the stem is really functional, in terms of mostly not getting fingerprints all over your glass, but also, you know, to do the little swirly thing, or, you know, level one is always like on the table, which is fine forever, you know? ## Learning to swirl (25:28) But I will say, so the swirling thing also really trips people up when they first get started in wine. And, anyway, you can teach DK: Me how to swirl. RTB: Everybody does it a little different. Yes. I remember when I took my first sommelier class, which was the course, which was the Sommelier Society of America, which is based here in New York — still my favorite certification, I'm now an instructor for them, they meet actually in a much chiller space now, we meet in a much chiller space. But when I took the course, it was at the University Club. It was at nine in the morning, if you can believe it, you had to walk, you know, to the front of this room with the chandelier, there was like a dress code in the building, and it was like, "Oh my God," sort of exciting but very intimidating. RTB: And I just remember not knowing how to swirl — I'd never eaten arugula before I moved to New York City. And, like, I was not a fancy person. And this swirling thing really, you know, was kind of intimidating for me. So I really, like, encouraged people to just swirl on the table. And the reason we do this is to open it up, and mostly to stick the actual smell molecules — to get them out of the glass and into your nose, so you can smell them better. RTB: This is how somebody taught me, and there's lots of different ways to do it. So if you wanna do an in-the-air swirl, they told me to take these two fingers and pinch here, but then use the rest of my hand to support it. And then the way I was taught was a little bit of a wrist, like a little bit of almost a figure eight, but not like — not like a witch's cauldron. So now I can do it, now it's very second nature, but it was not, and I would often, you know, kind of spill and feel like everybody's watching me do this, you know. What's DK: Your swirl like? Watch this, without me — honestly, I don't even think about it. But actually, try to do this with a thicker glass, you're not even going to be able to. But this, you could actually just do with two fingers, because it's so thin, RTB: You know. It's tiny — actually, like, I feel like I'm just — Alright, listen, I was already a fan of your glasses because they're pretty and they're pleasurable to use, and it's just nice to have around. But I have to say, now that we're talking about this — this is the easiest, I'm just — yeah, this is really easy to swirl. Because because the DK: Majority of the weight in this glass right now is actually the wine, so you're literally just — you're not even worried about the glass, like everything else — there's more weight in the liquid there than the entire glass. RTB: It's like invisible, it's like a unicorn. DK: Exactly, that's how we want people to feel. And so when people don't know about our glasses, they first use it, they pick it up, they're like, "Whoa," like it's just like a mind-bending kind of experience for them. RTB: So you're literally, with this beautiful, delicate, light, hand-blown glass, you're really actually letting people just focus on what's inside. DK: Exactly. RTB: That is so easy to swirl, I hadn't thought about that as a selling point, but now I'm like, oh — DK: Also, like, I heard some sommeliers don't even swirl that much, because I over-swirl, 'cause I'm just like a fidgety person, but somebody was like, "No, you're just supposed to like flick it like that." RTB: That is honestly a really fair point, I do think we overdo it, it is almost kind of like a nervous energy thing for everybody. Yeah, I think it does become this habit. I had someone say, "Don't just swirl, smell it first and see if it needs to be opened up." DK: Yeah, that's fair. RTB: Right, like you might not need to oxygenate it, if it's already perfect, then you're just kind of beating it up and knocking it out. Yeah, 'cause it's this oxygen cycle of, like, when we talk about it being tight versus open, we're talking about oxygenation, and if the wine's been open for a while — it depends on what it is. Yeah, it might be perfect before you even move it, and if you just — you know, then you might have just knocked it out of a nice moment, right? DK: You know, I would just say this falls into the category of, like, don't let the little details worry you too much, it'll be fine, just however you do it, it'll probably be fine. You know, the two most important things are the wine has to be good, and the glass has to be good, and everything else is just minor. ## Glasvin's full lineup (29:37) RTB: Well, this is a good wine glass. I'm really happy that you, at Glasvin, have made this wine experience of this hand-blown glass to be more accessible to people. So tell me about the different glasses that you have, and tell me how much they cost, at this point right now, as of 2025, as we're recording this. Sure. DK: So this is $80 for two, so $40 a glass. We have a less expensive one, I think it's currently 55 for two, and that's the one I was saying — or maybe it's 60 now, I had to double-check — but that's the one I'm saying that's like a little bit thicker, and it's still really nice, like you'll still get some of that hand-blown experience, but it will feel different than this. It's heavier and thicker. And then, in each of those lines, we have bigger glasses, like we have the Bordeaux and the Burgundy, bigger glasses. And then on top of that, we have cocktail glasses, so we have little coupes and martinis and whiskey glasses, and so we have a full range of whatever glass shape you could possibly want, we probably have it. ## Bordeaux vs. Burgundy glasses (31:30) RTB: Yeah, that's awesome. Could you explain to us the difference between a Bordeaux and a Burgundy glass? DK: Yeah, Burgundy is just usually a bigger glass, effectively, you could just think about it like that. RTB: So Bordeaux being this blend of usually Cabernet and Merlot, always a blend from the Bordeaux region, and then the Burgundy being Pinot Noir DK: Yes. RTB: For red and typically Chardonnay. DK: Yes. So I call them those because that's just how people call it, but really, it's not like you can only drink a Bordeaux out of a Bordeaux glass, you could drink a Bordeaux out of this glass, you could drink a Bordeaux out of a Burgundy glass, it honestly doesn't really matter, they're just bigger. So the bigger the glass, the more the aromatics kind of get released. I think the sweet spot for a lot — well, this is definitely the sweet spot — this is our RTB: The sweet spot. DK: Like, top-selling product. But I think a lot of people, if they like reds or whatever, I think the Bordeaux glass is just perfect, but we call it the Expression, and that's like a really — you don't even need to go even bigger than that, it'll work for basically every red wine. RTB: My feeling with wine always is that the purpose of more education, more information, should be the increase of enjoyment. Yes. More pleasure, more joy, more appreciation of this beautiful, unique product. If I had a really chunky, short, thick glass with a small opening, you know, I mean, things like serving temperature are also really important, it's really just about, like, take good care of your wine, don't, you know, put it on top of your fridge — DK: Don't put it on top of your stove. RTB: Right, yeah, right. What I would love for people to get out of all this information is not "here are the rules and you're doing it wrong," but wine is so special that people have been working together for centuries to perfect the wine and the service, and this, you know, moment in time that you have here was available to us because you saw this hole in the market, and you've been successful because you were right about that. You were like, "People want this, I want this, other people are gonna want this too, I'm gonna make it." But in a way, to find these proportions and everything, it's this process of technology, observation, scientific method over the course of centuries through tradesmen, and also, you know, people who enjoy the finer things in life, to come together to get us this moment where we can have something right. DK: And I won't take credit for, you know, because this trend really started — I want to say something like 2010-ish, I would say it probably started in Europe and then it came to the US, where people are just going lighter and lighter with their wine glasses. And yeah, people realize that this is worth it, it's going to break a little bit more for sure, but it elevates the experience so much that the return on the investment of having some glasses break is so much higher — again, back to that example of this makes the wine taste 20% better, so why would we not put that investment in? I came a little bit later, but I guess my contribution was to help make this a trend among a much wider group of people, and make it more affordable for a greater group of people. ## Restaurants carrying Glasvin (33:51) RTB: Tell us about some of the restaurants that you're in now, you're having a lot of success with restaurants, I want to hear about that. But do you also want to find a way to reach consumers at home? Are you hoping that's kind of a boomerang around, what are your plans for that? Is that still your dream, that people will have it at home? DK: So we're about — I think probably like 60% restaurants, 40% consumer, which is a great ratio, I'm happy with that ratio, I don't even control the ratio, right, it's just like who buys glasses for me effectively, but yeah, I'm very happy to serve both markets. Obviously, like, the consumer side, there's more education that we need to do, and we're there to help, where, yeah, like if this is the first time using a glass like this, you might accidentally break one the first time you wash it, because you're just — RTB: You've never done DK: That before. RTB: The delicate touch. DK: So every time, almost every time someone tells me it breaks, it's because their relatives or something was helping them wash it, and they're just like — they didn't even realize you need to wash these a little bit softer. RTB: Gonna be a little more gentle. Yes. What is the care we recommend? DK: Just using a dishwasher, bottom rack, stem facing up, not touching anything. Obviously it's really not going to break. We're in hundreds of restaurants in the US, and they're all in much, much harder dishwashers than the one at home. True. So, and if you have any issues, you just email us and we'll help you deal with it. RTB: Listen, $40 for a delicate, like, unicorn-weight, hand-blown wine glass that I can put in my dishwasher, that's — DK: Once you know what you're doing, it's going to last, I mean, it's still a consumable product, like all glassware is going to break at some point, but yeah, if you know how to take care of it, it won't break. RTB: Well, I think they're really beautiful. I'm just also excited to see, in terms of careers in wine, you know, there's a lot of different things you can do. Yes. DK: I mean, there aren't that many people like me, probably, so I don't know if I'd call this a career path, but yeah, I think the key is just to do something that you're passionate about, obviously, but also that you know really well. I knew more about wine than anything, with the exception of that one industry I was covering at a hedge fund, but that one industry, it's not — it's not like you can start a business in that industry. So this was like the closest thing to that, and so I just started two businesses in a field that I knew better than most other people. RTB: But you were able to go into business around a product that you were personally passionate about. DK: Exactly, so I didn't have to do any market research, 'cause I'm like, "This is — I would buy that, and I know like 50 other people that would also want to buy this." RTB: So maybe the surprise for you was that it was restaurants that really took off. DK: Yes. That was your direct consumer. Yeah. And I don't know if "surprise" is the right word, it's just — I didn't even think about it. But if I thought about it logically, yeah, it would make sense that restaurants would. ## Glasvin around the world (36:46) RTB: So what are some of the restaurants around the world where people will find Glasvin today? DK: Definitely our strong spot is the US, and within the US, our real strong place is New York City, we're just like everywhere in New York City. I would say we're probably in like half of the restaurants that we would want to be in. RTB: So congratulations. Yeah. DK: But actually, that's funny, we should bring up this — because this is the sommelier of Cote and Coqodaq, and they're one of our newer, awesome customers, so if you ever go to Cote or Coqodaq and you see their logo on the side of the glass, that's our glass. RTB: That's so cool, that's so cool. But you're also in some restaurants around the world, so tell me about some of the cities where people will see glasses. DK: Yeah, I mean, our other big cities would be like Los Angeles, we have a lot of great clients there, Miami, San Francisco, Chicago, like, I mean, all the big cities. We definitely have some major clients outside the US, especially in places where they don't speak English, I need to get help, so I'm not as close to those. But I know we're in a lot of great restaurants in Spain, we're in some restaurants in the UK, we're definitely a lot in Canada, I do Canada myself all over the place. RTB: Well, congratulations and thanks for making this happen. Yeah, something that I'm personally excited about. So cheers. DK: Cheers. Thank you for having me on this. Yeah. ## David's favorite wines (38:13) RTB: I'd love to hear about what wines you're excited about. Are there wines or regions that are just your thing, that you always reach for, or maybe something new that you're interested in lately? DK: I'm a very experimental drinker. So when I started, I actually — well, I started in Toronto, and I was trying to just learn how to blind-taste wines, and that was like a part of my life. And then I started going to Paris more, and I started getting into natural wines, and so I had this big natural wine phase. DK: And then a little bit later, I kind of came back to traditional wines, still loving natural wines, but just — yeah, so I'm very experimental. I like the stuff that everyone else likes, like Burgundy and Champagne and Northern Rhône and Napa, and like all those that everyone else likes. I actually — I'm not a big Riesling fan, which is one place I think I diverge from traditional tastes, and I'm not as big into some Rieslings and some white Burgundy as other people, and I think I'm really into some of these — I guess we can't even call these up-and-coming anymore, because everyone knows about them — but Grenache, I love, I really, really love Grenache; Nebbiolo, a big fan of Nebbiolo, especially some of the newer kind of Nebbiolos, the Nebbiolos people are making in like a Burgundian style. I'm still, unfortunately, very, very Eurocentric with my wine consumption, which should probably be fixed. Yeah. RTB: Yeah, me too. I know, it's — I got to blame Italy, I just got sucked in and obsessed. DK: I think with modern winemaking, you can basically make good wine almost anywhere, as long as, like, the soils — and they might figure out a way for that as well, but as long as there's, like, limestone, whatever, you can make very, very good wine basically anywhere in the world. RTB: So technology has really advanced both viticulturally, so growing wine, and also with vinification. Right. We've learned so much, the science is just — boom, and the technology. Once you get into it, it's just like, for me, it was just like a river that I knew was gonna sweep me away. But once it swept you away, you're probably gonna want a hand-blown wine glass. So, you know, fair warning. Luckily, you can get one. DK: They're available for sale. ## How to order Glasvin (40:27) RTB: And accessibly priced. So tell us about your website and how people can order your glasses. Yeah, absolutely. And what's the experience like, you know, you mail it to people — guide us through purchasing your wine glasses, whether you're a person or — DK: A restaurant. Pretty simple, you just — well, yeah, if you're a restaurant, you just email me and then we'll go through the process. But if you're a consumer, then, yes, just go on our website, glas.vin, and there's shipping estimates on there, so most things can arrive within like a few days, so it's pretty efficient shipping. And, yeah, just put an order in, and then if anything goes wrong, you just reach out and we'll deal with it. ## Talking tariffs (41:02) RTB: So, I'm sorry, I've got to ask you this, but what about tariffs? So you're making your wine glasses in Asia — are your prices about to double, what's gonna happen to you? DK: The thing about tariffs is no one knows what's happening with the tariffs, therefore I have no answers for you. We don't price based on our costs, we price based on the value that we deliver to our customers. We don't think of it as, like, "Hey, if our costs go up 20%," then — through all the inflation, we haven't raised the price of this glass to our restaurant customers at all, still — it was started at $20 a glass, still $20 a glass, this is the wholesale price, by the way, for when you buy a lot of glasses as a restaurant — and we haven't increased that even once. And obviously there's been a lot of inflation in the last five years, I mean, obviously if our costs go up and everyone else's costs go up and all other wine glasses go up in price, then we're going to have to increase our prices too. But it's too early to make any major decisions. RTB: Well, I really hope that some of the worst-case scenarios with tariffs don't happen. I mean, I realize that even the discussions have done a lot of damage, certainly in all parts of the wine industry. But I really hope that everything works out for all of our sakes. Yeah, and no one's worrying about DK: Wine glasses, like, we're worried about our iPhones costing 2x, you know, so we're just like a little apostrophe at the end of the sentence, that, you know, we might get taken for a ride, but, yeah, like, the cost of your wine glasses is probably not going to be the main thing you're worried about. RTB: Right? Yeah, yeah, I'm interested — what are your questions and feelings about wine glasses? Because people have emotions about this. So write to me — you can write to me on Instagram, you can comment on this video, you can send me an email through mododibere.com. I want to know how you feel about wine glasses. Are you really loving a stemless glass, because you feel like, "Hey, I just don't care"? Are you really intrigued by this, and you're going to go buy this today? We have stemless glasses as well, by the way, so that's no good excuse to not buy glasses. All right, talk to me. ## Blind tasting wine (and music) (44:00) Okay, I can't believe I'm drinking at 11 in the morning, I love it. I should have made you blind this — would you have got it? DK: No, I don't think so. RTB: Yeah, you've got to be really kind of in training for that. Even though I'm teaching it, I teach blind tasting to people at the Sommelier Society, but they're in training all the time, you know, they're really sharp. I do meet with a blind tasting club. Maybe you can come sometime, whenever. DK: I'd love to, coming through New York. I think my percentage getting Nebbiolo right is pretty high, my percentage getting Chianti — Sangiovese, right — is very low. And honestly, it's one of those wines that people generally don't bring to blind tastings, so you don't want to guess Chianti unless you're 99% sure it's Chianti, because it's much more likely that it's like Piedmont or something like that. RTB: Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Now, I love a good Chianti. The world is just so much more diverse, biodiverse, really, the wine from every single hillside can give you a different expression. If you want to really study and nerd out, then you start to make a map about it, but the map is not the hill, right? It's like music — I've got my piano here, and I've got some sheet music on there, that piece of paper is not the music, it's a record, it's a tool, but the music is alive and it's living, and that's kind of the way it is with wine too. We can study and we can discuss things, and those things are important for the knowledge of the world, but at the end of the day, I mean, there's just — nothing, you know? DK: Well, for — RTB: Me, I love my research. Right, it's sensual research. DK: The similarity with music for me is — one activity I enjoy doing aside from blind wine tasting is like blind music guessing, so it's like, like Béla Bartók, you know, can I tell that it's Béla Bartók even though I've never heard that song before, because it's kind of stylistically similar. So Mozart is very stylistically similar, I find, like all his songs kind of sound like da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da, like, it's basically kind of versions of that, and Beethoven has its own style. Yeah. So that's what you're doing with the wine, RTB: Effectively — you're giving me a dinner party idea. Okay, so we're both — what if we had a — DK: Okay, blind wine and music pairing. RTB: Like, yeah, so somebody puts — right, what if we had a little dinner party and it was both blind classical music — DK: Let's do it, I could cook for it. RTB: Oh my God, yeah. Do that. Yeah. DK: I do press dinners at my apartment in Chelsea, so we could do this, this will be like a version of that. So, RTB: All right, listen, if you're a classical — sorry, wine — if you're a music fan or a musician who could reasonably well guess blind-taste classical music as well as wine, you know, even just kind of in a fun way — get in touch. Yes, please, you can come to this dinner that we're planning. Yeah. \[music\] \[laughter\] Look, if you're kind of interested in this stuff and you think it might be nice to try out a fancy wine glass, this is a sort of, thanks to David, a lower-investment way to be like, "Oh, do I need that? Do I need that in my life?" I think I do, actually. DK: So there's a really great article, it's called "Intelligent Life," but they've rebranded the magazine to "1843," it's part of The Economist, and they talk about blind tasting, and there's basically a yearly competition between Oxford and Cambridge, and so they do a big blind-tasting feature on it. And you look at the team, and everyone is Asian. Okay, so I don't know if it's because Asians are good at blind-tasting wine, or if it's just like — I mean, obviously, like, Asians, I think, really love wine, and they see it as this cool thing, whereas, like, in many ways, like in America, wine is kind of like not as cool as craft beer or spirits or cocktails and stuff like that. Yeah. RTB: I mean, the statistics are bearing that out. DK: Exactly. That article talks about these Asian people, and they're literally using Asian descriptors for these wines, and they're like, "No, no, it's not what you're saying, because you've never had this dish before, but this is what it tastes like." And it's like a really fun, RTB: Different way to DK: Describe it. But it really reminds me of the idea of compression — like, even though all these people might have different descriptors, at the end of the day we come down to, like, what it is, so fundamentally, if you and I can agree that this is a Pinot Noir from Oregon or whatever, then it doesn't even matter what your descriptors are, what my descriptors are, we're talking about the same thing. And if the wine isn't from Oregon and it's actually from Burgundy, that's okay as well, because there can be Burgundy wines that taste like Oregon wines and vice versa. Anyway, that's why I love blind wine tasting. RTB: You know, I think there's a thing about a certain kind of privilege too, which is who has to look something up. I think it's good for all of us to have to look things up. Right. You know what I mean? Like, if you're reading a tasting note and it's a dish from Asia, or a flavor that you haven't heard of, and you have to Google it — well, enjoy it, you know, enjoy that. It shouldn't always be the other way around. Honestly, it's so much less boring that way, than it's like everything tastes like apples and pears and cherries and, you know. This project is really about getting people to try new things and learn new languages and learn from new people and try new flavors. So is there anything else that you wanna add? DK: I think we covered everything, I think we had a very lengthy and pleasant conversation. ## Outro (48:38) RTB: Thank you. Yeah, thank you for coming on the show, David. DK: Yeah, anytime, I'd love to come back sometime. RTB: Oh my God, yeah, I love our idea of doing a classical music, blind-tasting combo, that sounds really fun. You don't have to drink wine out of a hand-blown wine glass, but if you want to, you might not go back. I feel like my wine glass collection has been a bit of a mishmash, I mean, I certainly had some nice glasses, but I think they've mostly been machine-made. I'm thrilled to have one of these in my house, I think it was something that I associated with — I go to the nice restaurant and I'm seeing these more and more, but I'm definitely enjoying these, definitely, you're going to have a little place in my cabinet. So cheers! I'm so glad I can put them in the dishwasher. So cheers again, thanks to you. DK: Thanks for having me on. RTB: Yeah, you're so welcome. And to all of our listeners, thank you. Wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Support us on Patreon. *\[NOTE: We are no longer using Patreon! Become a member* [*right here*](https://www.mododibere.com/#/portal/) *to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\]* Grab the newsletter at mododibere.com, and subscribe to the YouTube channel at Modo di Bere to watch the travel show Modo di Bere TV. Music for the show was composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou. Purchase their music at the link in the notes. Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Georgian Royal Wine ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e5-georgian-royal-wine/) [ The Friulano Language ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e3-william-cisilino-friulano/) ### ▷S4E3 The Heart of a Language: William Cisilino talks Friulano URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e3-william-cisilino-friulano/ Last updated: 2026-09-08T19:59:43.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s4e2-william-cisilino-friulano/) William Cisilino is the director of ARLeF, an organization that promotes the Friulian language. He is a leading expert and advocate for linguistic diversity. Dr Cisilino and Rose Thomas discuss the health of the Friulano language today, both in northeastern Italy and around the world. He teaches Rose Thomas a Friulian saying and poem. They discuss intergenerational transmission, the connection between biodiversity and linguistic variation, the cultural functions of idioms, and who gets to decide if there's a difference between a language and a dialect. Learn more about Friulano at the ARLeF website: [https://arlef.it/](https://arlef.it/?ref=mododibere.com) Follow ARLef on [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/agjenziearlef/?hl=it&ref=mododibere.com) and [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/user/AgjenzieARLeF?ref=mododibere.com) @AgjenzieARLeF Instagram [@agjenziearlef](https://www.instagram.com/agjenziearlef/?hl=it&ref=mododibere.com) Two notes: 1\. Pope Francis was still living at the time of this recording. 2\. The story that US President Kennedy accidentally called himself a donut while visiting Berlin is a widespread misconception, one that Rose Thomas learned had been debunked after recording this episode. If you accidentally refer to yourself as a pastry while practicing a new language, we encourage you to embrace mistakes as part of the language-learning process! > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO7oRI7jVui/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO7oRI7jVui/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO8yRRrjRvN/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO8yRRrjRvN/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPESPc5jcen/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPESPc5jcen/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) Expand for Autotranscript. (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript ## 0:00 — Welcome to Modo di Bere RTB: Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. Today I'm really excited to be interviewing Dr. William Cisilino, the director of the regional agency for the Friulano language in the city of Udine, in the northern Italian region of Friuli-Venezia Giulia. Welcome to the show, Dr. Cisilino. WC: Thank you. Thank you very much. RTB: So I was recently, at the time of this recording, I was recently traveling along the Italian and Slovenian border, filming a documentary about the wine regions and the local language. And Dr. Cisilino, everyone told me that I needed to speak to you. So I'm — WC: Everyone is a big word. ## 1:11 — What is Friulano? RTB: Okay. Two, three people, perhaps. Okay. I noticed when I was traveling in Friuli-Venezia Giulia some road signs with three languages. So Italian, Slovenian, and Friulano. Tell us what — what is Friulano? WC: Friulano, which is a name also in English, which is Friulian. Friulano is the name of the language in Italian. And the local word for Friulian is furlan. It became from Friuli, which is the name of the region, the big part of that region. The name Friuli came from Latin and from the ancient name of Cividale del Friuli, which was Forum Iuli, the forum of — Julius Caesar, no? Oh, yes. This city was founded by Julius Caesar, which was the capital of Friuli in the Longobardian period. And then the name of the city formally became the name of all the region, Friuli, under the Longobards, because the founders of Friuli were the Longobards. We are talking about 1,500 years ago. No. Wow. A lot of years, now. So we have a very long, long, long history. RTB: Who were the Longobards? WC: The Longobards were Germanic people, which came here around the final part of the fifth century. They decided to put Forum Iuli, now Cividale del Friuli, as the capital. I don't know if at the time it was a duke of Friuli — this was very important, because before the main city was Aquileia, and then Cividale del Friuli became the main city. And the role of these people to promote the regional identity was very strong. And so the name of the city became the name of all the region, so Forum Iuli, Friuli, and then Friulian, which is the name of the language. Friulian is a romance language, and continues the lineage of the Aquileia region — it has a pre-Roman substrate, Celtic, more or less. It received a lot of contribution from the languages of populations which briefly shared moments in its history: Germanic, Gothic, Lombard, Slavic languages. So it's a romance language with a lot of inserts of these parts of these languages of people who came here in the years. Wonderful. RTB: So I ask this question of people a lot. What is the difference between a language and a dialect? ## 4:48 — A language is a dialect with an army and navy WC: How much time do you have? I have an answer about this. I don't know if you know the answer — the very famous answer of Professor Weinreich about this question. RTB: Something about the Navy. WC: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A language is a dialect with a Navy and Army. The languages are a club, no? And to become a member of this club, you need that some of these languages want you in this club. So this is the regulation. So we are a language because the Italian state in 1999, so very recently, decided to recognize us as a language. For example, we have dialects or languages in Italy, but they are not recognized by the state as languages. So it's only a formal affair, a formal business. And I have to say also that the languages usually have some characteristics. For example, they have literature. They have standard language, now. They have regulations about spelling, now. And they have usually entities, public bodies, as ARLeF, my public body, the regional agency for Friulian language of the region. The region is a sort of little state, no, as in America, with a lot of differences. There are some characteristics. But finally, the last word is on the hands of the states. If the states recognize you, you are a language. If not, no. ## 8:01 — Pasolini and Friulian literature RTB: So I have a long cherished dream to have some sort of a panel where I have a linguist like yourself and a geneticist who studies grape varieties, because, you know, my background is in wine. I have become a researcher in linguistic idioms, per caso, by accident. But it always reminds me when you say the language is recognized by the state — the question is, how many different wine grape varieties are there in Italy? Well, we can talk about the main variety. Is this a clone? Is it a family? Like a taxonomy, you know, a language family, and then the cousins of the language. I definitely have heard from a lot of people in Italy that the presence of a long history of written literature is often an example that people tell me. So tell me about Friulano literature a little bit. WC: Yeah, Friulano or Friulian has a very long history about the literature. And I also have to say that a lot of dialects in Italy have a long history about, you know, the use in literature. So, for example, before to speak about Friulian and Neapolitan — no, dialect or language, I don't know — you have very famous songs, poems, and so on, in the language of Napoli. So of course, we have a very old literature. You have to consider that the first literary documents in Friulian date back to the middle of the 13th century. Wow. So very many, many years. We have a lot of very good writers. First of all, in the 15th century, as Morlupino, Sini, Strassoldo, Biancone, and Donato, a lot of people. The most important is in the 17th century, and his name is Ermes di Colloredo. Ermes is our Dante Alighieri, because he used the form of Friulian. And the other writers at the time started to use to write the same as Dante Alighieri. And a lot of languages also — I don't know, for example, in the languages of Germany — No, or with Martin Luther, no — he wrote the translation of the Bible, and the writers started to use that form of language after him. We have a lot, a lot of authors, and I want to say an important thing. We had a lot of authors, but only in the 19th century, as the other languages — The writers started to think about the form, the correct form of Friulian, as spelling, letters, grammatic, and so on. In this was very, very important a woman prose writer, Caterina Percoto, who was very important to establish the grammatic, the forms, and the spelling of the language, and she was a very, very, very good writer. Last but not least, Pier Paolo Pasolini, which is, I think, the most famous, with Carlo Sgorlon, for Friulian literature, as well. He is one of the most important writers in Italy and in Europe, and a lot of critics say that the most important poems are the Friulian ones. RTB: Lovely. Oh, I would love to one day have time to learn Friulano and read the poetry. That sounds like a dream. I hope — WC: I know that Pasolini has a lot of translations. So you find poems of Pasolini, and I think that is one of the most important writers in Europe, not only in Friuli or Italy. ## 12:28 — Friuli-Venezia Giulia: a young region RTB: Fantastic. I will absolutely check that out. I love poetry. The region Friuli-Venezia Giulia is a fairly recent creation. I was trying to just say Friuli because it's shorter, and an Italian will correct me and say, no, it is Friuli-Venezia Giulia. WC: And it's very dangerous if you say only Friuli when you are in Venezia Giulia, for example, in Trieste. And this is also correct, no. RTB: So these regions were put together into one in the 60s. Is that — WC: Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The decision to create this strange region was decided in 1948, but the region started to be a formal body in 1963\. It's very recent. It's formed by two areas very, very different about language, about culture, about history. And we tried to live together. And I think that we will live together a lot of time in the next years, and I think it's a good example to live with other peoples, not with different peoples. And to manage to find the way to put together the good things and not the critics' things. ## 13:52 — Life on the borderland RTB: Let's speak more about the history of this border, along this geographic place where you are. I've learned it has such an interesting history of different cultural influences, different political influences. Can we talk a little bit about the history of this borderland? WC: In terms of linguistics, you have to consider that only 100 years ago here, you find people that in the normal life spoke three, four, five languages. And also now you can find this situation. For example, you visited Collio. In Collio, a lot of people usually speak at least three languages. Italian, Friulian — 100 years ago, also German was very spoken. This situation was created because here is the only place in Europe where the three big cultures and languages — Slavic, Germanic, Latin — meet and live together. And this has been more than 1,500 years. So we are very open to other cultures and to be part of something of a sort of multicultural thing. Now, these four official languages — Italian, Friulian, Slovenian, German — if you go in our regional council, you will find councilors who speak Friulian, or Italians, or Slovenian, or German, and you have interpretation for those who don't understand. For example, you find signs, as you know, in these languages. If you go to Tarvisio, you will find four languages, because Tarvisio has four languages. So we think we are very rich. But we have to consider that more than 100 years ago now, during the first — the World War, before and during — nationalism spread a lot of blood for the idea that different identities and cultures and languages can't live together. And now we have this situation that we love, and this is the normal situation of this region, because also in the middle age, we live in peace as languages, identities, culture. Our problem was and is the states. The big entities. But this is another — can I say — argument, no. ## 17:19 — Inside ARLeF RTB: And a very important one, I think. I would love to hear a little more about your work with ARLeF. WC: ARLeF, as I told you, is a regional agency of the autonomous region of Friuli-Venezia Giulia, which is one of the 20 regions of Italy. But of this 20 regions, five are special — Sicily. And Sicily was founded before the Italian state. So Sicily recognized the Italian state, and not the opposite. And it's true — this, and Sardinia, Valle d'Aosta, Trentino-Alto Adige, and Friuli-Venezia Giulia. So we have four languages. And for the Friulian language, the region decided to create the agency to promote our languages, more or less 20 — not really 30 — years ago. And so we work to promote the language, to perform actions to promote, to develop the language in more or less all the fields of the social life, such as family, school, mass media, working environment, show business, scientific research, public administration, technologies — more or less all. ## 18:57 — How many people speak Friulano? RTB: That's fantastic. I'm interested in how many speakers — what is the state of Friulano today? Is it doing well as a language? What are your goals in terms of preservation and creating more speakers of the language? WC: In this moment, the speakers here in Friuli are more or less 500,000\. The situation of the language is fine about the recognition, by not only the institution, but also by the people. The people here know that we have a language, we have to promote this language, now we have to preserve, and — how can I say — the people wants to save these languages. Not only the speakers, but also the others. The others means the others — 300,000 people who live near the people who speak the language. And in this moment, so Friulian is spoken by at least one person in two, but one in four could reactivate their competence in this language. We want to encourage its use, and we hope that also the parents speak Friulian to their children. This is very important. The problem here is that the people — I don't know if this is correct to say — make children. No, I — RTB: Have. WC: Have children. I have children, okay. Because here in Italian we say make children — no, if you don't have children, then you don't have the people who speak the language. You don't have the people who make a lot of things. The problem now in Friuli is that the region in Italy with Liguria, which has the worst rate about — RTB: A low birth rate. WC: Yeah, okay. The situation is very dangerous for this reason. ## 21:25 — Passing language to the next generation RTB: I want to know more from you in general about the importance of intergenerational transmission with the health. The life of a language is fundamental. WC: And now we know that 50% of parents transmit the language. We want to have a 100% rate — that is not so bad, because 50% in a minority context is not so bad. But we are working a lot to persuade the parents that this is important — know more languages, Friulian. And also, it's important to learn other languages. Because if you are bilingual, when you are a child, it's easier for you to learn another language. We are working a lot to transmit this idea. For example, we have, since five, six years, a project with the hospitals. When there is a new baby in the family, by the hospitals — when the newborn comes, we give to the parents some presents, a little book where we explain these things about multilingualism. And we are very proud, because the parents appreciate a lot this, and also the parents from other regions and other countries. ## 23:12 — A parallel in Texas German RTB: That's great. This makes me think of — I was in Texas speaking to some people who speak the Texas German variant of German, as documented by the researcher Hans Boas. It's really interesting that the researcher's conclusions were that the language is going to die, because the speakers are all in their 80s, and there isn't a lot of energy to preserve and promote. And I observed, over a game of dominoes, the grandparents could speak the language. Their children could understand but not speak. And then the grandchildren, they just said, what are you saying about me? I don't understand at all. I observed an interesting exchange between someone from the oldest generation and the middle generation. The middle generation, the dad, was saying the problem is they're not teaching it in the schools. And the grandma said, no, the problem is they're not speaking it at home. And that seemed to me that we should listen to her. What I mean, I'm sure both are important. I'm curious about your thoughts on this. WC: I think that we need both, because in your home, you can transmit the heart of language. And in the school, you transmit the culture, the literature, the history, and the tradition. So are different levels. And this is the same with English in your country and Italian in — and here now, you learn at home the language. At the school, you can read the literature and the history of the country. So, different levels. RTB: In terms of media. I have an interesting example from my travels in your region, or near your region. In Slovenia, I was told — speaking of intergenerational transmission — I was told that many people in their 40s, 50s, learned Italian because they were in Slovenia, or all the different countries that has been, and they were close enough to the Italian border to be able to pick up on their television the Italian cartoons. And now my Slovenian friends are saying that their children don't speak as well Italian, because now there's so many things to watch other than just the Italian cartoons. So I don't know what you think about that, but I would love to hear in terms of media about your work. ## 26:02 — Friulano in the media WC: Media are very important, of course. We have here in Friuli some media in Friulian. For example, we have a weekly, we have also some — we have a monthly, a historical monthly, and some periodicals in Friulian. And we have two radios — one, Radio Onde Furlane, which broadcasts almost all in Friulian, and another one, Radio Spazio 103, which broadcasts 55% in Friulian. And you can find it in the web if you want. And also we have the Radio Televisione Italiana, RAI, which broadcasts programs in radio and in television, in Friulian. In television, we also have a private media, Telefriuli, which has programs in Friulian, which you can find also online in the website, and also, of course, we have also social media — Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. And so we have a presence of the language in all this media. It's clear that it's very difficult for a language with not so many speakers to not be very present in this media, but they are very important. RTB: I think. \[music\] WC: Mhm. ## 27:56 — A Friulian moon idiom RTB: I'd love to get a sense of the flavor or the sound, the words of Friulian. Let's do it through modo di dire, through idioms. Do you have some modo di dire to teach me? WC: I don't know if you already know: "Ogni dì si fâs la lune, ogni dì si impare une." RTB: Oh, I can almost understand that — something about the moon and — WC: Every day — I don't know — si fâs la lune, the moon — no, make something in the orbit — and every day you learn something. RTB: Oh, I love that. I love that. That is beautiful. WC: Fâs la lune is a phase of the moon — one of the phases, one of a lot of the phases of the moon, now. So every day the moon moves a little more, in the new phase, and every day you learn something, at the same time. ## 29:18 — Never drink water RTB: That's beautiful. In English, it's not so poetic — we say, "Learn something new every day." Oh, that's very beautiful. I like that one a lot. I learned one, although I think it might sound different from region to region, but I learned — I have a collection of drinking sayings about how you should never drink water, right, because you should drink wine. So I learned "L'aghe je buine pae crotz." WC: Yeah, very good pronunciation. RTB: Oh, thank you. Yeah. WC: The water is good for frogs. Okay. RTB: I love this, I love this. It's so funny. That is actually one of my favorites of that whole collection. Just for comparison, I learned from Venice: "l'acqua marsise i pai." WC: So, yeah. RTB: So the water rots the boat poles. Yeah. So, so my linguistics question for you, because my expertise is in wine, right? But then wine has given me — my work in wine has given me an excuse to indulge my passion for language study. And as I began to encounter the vast linguistic diversity in Italy, I noticed that when people would talk to me about their regional languages or their dialect, however they call them, I was being taught a lot of modo di dire and a lot of idioms, and I have found — I guess I want to know what you, as a real linguist, think of my theory. ## 31:16 — Why idioms matter I think that it is a really wonderful microcosm of a language to learn these sayings. I think they're funny, I think they're colorful, and I think they're a good bridge to connect people, like an idiom exchange. And I think they're funny and sweet and kind of bring a smile to your face. And I think it's maybe a better way to start than, "Please —" "Thank you. Where is the train station?" For me, it's — I don't know, what do you think? What is the place of the idiom in linguistics? Am I onto something? WC: The place is that, you know that you have learned a language when you start to understand idioms. And this is very, very important. Sometimes idioms are a sort of little sentences about the people. For example, if you read the most important idioms of Friuli, these sentences are very important to understand what are Friulians. It's very strange, as you noted, that from region to region, or from area to area, in Italy, you have different wines, different dishes, different idioms, different languages or dialects. So we have a lot of dishes, a lot of wines, because we have a lot of cultures, and a lot of dialects and a lot of languages. I was very impressed some years ago in Sardinia, because I was in a little village, during the period of carnival. And the people from there, they told me that every little village, also of 100 inhabitants, has a cake for carnival. Every, every, every — a thousand kinds of cakes for carnival. And this is culture. This is why we have a lot of cheeses, or French people — but we have more than French. No. So I — RTB: Think it's wonderful. It's a cause of great delight. This whole thing started for me because I got a job bartending at an Italian restaurant with Italians from various regions, and they made, for me, a caprese cake. And I said, I thought that was a salad. And they said, well, they have a cake there as well. And that was kind of the beginning of learning the real richness of variety here. And to me, it's like collecting baseball cards, you know — there's just, yeah, there's always more. It's so rich, I need several lifetimes to taste every cheese. So now this is on my list — to taste every cake, every cake. Yeah, I'm — oh, I have a big desire to go to Sardinia. That sounds amazing. I want to ask you about Friulians around the world, in terms of linguistic diversity in Italy. A lot of people have told me about a period of time where the local dialect was suppressed. People were told, don't speak that way, speak Italian, depending on what region you were from. And I'm curious, this thing that you just told me about the autonomous regions, these five autonomous regions — did that make a difference in terms of continued transmission and continued value of the local language? WC: This is a problem of all the little languages in the world. You have to consider that in the world now we have 7,000 languages, and two thirds of this are in danger. Okay. And so language, dialect — it's the same, it's the same in the different regions of Italy and of Europe. You can find different situations, because the people of, or the institution of the people and institution of these regions, consider or don't consider it important to preserve the language. So for example, in our region it's very important, and I can say that every opinion leader, every politician, knows that it is important. The question for them is how to preserve — how important is the school, how important are the books — and they argue about this, but they are very sensitive about the problem. But the situation, for example, 50 years ago here was very, very different, because we have here the Iron Curtain, and now — here to Trieste, 13, no — 30 kilometers, and it's zero kilometers. And so the problem at the time was to preserve not only the state, but NATO, the Occident. So the problem was there, this. And now we have other problems. But in this moment in Europe — but the main problem is not to defend from that situation, because the Cold War now is very different. So I think also that if you have a trip in various regions of the Europe of the world, you find the situation that you find in that moment. So in that moment, for us it's a good moment for languages and dialects. So I don't know the real situation in the other regions of Italy. I imagine that in other regions, institutions and opinion leaders are not so close to these themes. But in our region it's a very important issue. RTB: How many Friulano speakers are there outside of Italy, and what were some of the migration patterns? ## 37:59 — Fogolars: Friuli's diaspora WC: The experts estimate that the Friulian speakers out of Friuli are more or less 1 million — more than the speakers here, 1 million, because we have a big story of emigration in the USA, in Canada, in South America, also in Australia, and recently in China, Japan, in Europe. In Europe too. So we have a big community spread around the world who speak Friulian. RTB: Well, in New York as well. WC: Yeah, in New York we have — we have also — a fogolar. Fogolar means the local organization of the immigrants. And we have a very old fogolar, and we have also a big fogolar in Canada, Famee Furlane, which is very well organized. We have also many, many people of the recent emigration. So young people who found everywhere these fogolars, and it's very curious, because we collaborate with the bodies — we have some bodies, local and private. We have not public bodies, we have only private entities, associations who work for Friulian emigration and the immigrants. The most important, because it's the oldest, is Ente Friuli nel Mondo. And it started to work in 1953\. It has a long, long history. I think they have more than 100 fogolars spread around the world, also in Africa. RTB: That's so interesting. WC: Yeah. ## 40:11 — Friulians in Argentina RTB: Yeah, I did learn from your colleague Marco about the influence of Friulians in the winemaking history in Argentina. So tell me about Friulians in Argentina. WC: I'm not an expert about this, but I know that in Argentina you can find a lot of Friulians, but also a lot of different immigrants from regions of Italy. So in Argentina, you find more or less the same situation of Italy. So you have an Italian community, but they are very divided, from the region where their families come. So they transmit this culture, not only of Friulian, but also of the other regions of Italy, in the culture of Argentina, and also in the dishes and the wines. You have a lot of wines in Argentina influenced by the Italian tradition. But I'm not so expert to tell you which ones and the names. But I know that this is real. RTB: And Fernet Branca as well, right? WC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. And also, it is not a wine, but the Pope — he has an Italian name because his family came from Piemonte, you know? Right? RTB: Oh, interesting. WC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Pope is of Italian origins, also if he is from Argentina. RTB: Italians are everywhere. I love it. I want to ask you — I'm always excited when I get to speak to a linguist. So one of the questions I have for you is, you know, my interest in linguistic diversity was influenced by my interest in biodiversity and studying the indigenous grape varieties of Italy — their preservation, their valorization. But like I said, I was working without any real academic background in linguistics or in linguistic preservation. ## 43:14 — Biodiversity, linguistics, and Chomsky And I wondered initially if I was doing something romantic, or making something up, saying, well, I like these two things — I like dialects and I like rare grapes, and I'm going to make a project and talk about them in the same project. And as I have gone forward with this and learned more about linguistics through talking to people like yourself, I'm learning that the environmentalists who want to prevent plants and animals from going extinct have actually been an influence on linguistics. So I'm really fascinated by this, and I try to ask everybody about the connection between biodiversity and linguistic diversity. So I want to know if you have some thoughts on this. WC: Yeah, we have a sort of master about this thematic, these issues — with a very famous linguist, I think also philosopher, American, Noam Chomsky. Noam Chomsky, who wrote a lot about the connection between biodiversity and diversity in general, and linguistics. So what we know is that the world is based on diversity. And when there is not diversity, there is a problem. And also, for example, for the generations — now, if you don't have diversity, you have problems in the genes. For example, this is very clear. You need a variation, you need a variation also. For example, the evolution theory is based on diversity. The evolution theory explains that we are based on diversity, and life is possible because there is diversity and diversification. And so we can find it also in the languages, which is the problem that we find in languages — not only in languages, also, for example, in the food. Many people who, for example, lost, here in Friuli, all the knowledge about the use of some varieties, now, of — I don't know what to eat, I mean. And I think that the people who work about these things, for example, like you, about diversity in wines, or diversity in the plants we want to use for cultivation and so on, and also to discover which was the knowledge of our grandfathers and grandfathers, and so on — for example, the work we do about languages is very close, very close, because we are working for — for diversity, to preserve diversity, now — and other entities. I don't want to say which ones — work for homogenization. Globalization is also a term of globalization, now, to have something that is the same all over the world. I think that is good that you find some marks all over the world. Okay, this is good, because I go in that place and I'm more relaxed, because I find this same — Mark. But I think also that it's important that when I go to the city, to the villages, to meet people, I want to find something different. Why do we go around the world for tourism — to find something different. This means that we want and we appreciate differences. And the first thing we have to do is to preserve our different things in our culture and in ourselves. RTB: Wonderful, wonderful answer. To take pride in your local character is something that I find so inspiring from all over Italy, and it shines a light for me to see the same process all over the world. Thank you. Thank you for your work. WC: Thank you to you. RTB: Please let me know how I can help. Okay, perhaps as in closing — we learned this one saying, but could you speak a few sentences in Friulian for us, or teach us a few more words? I just want to get a little more taste, a little more flavor of this language that we're discussing in English. ## 48:00 — The oldest poem in Friulian WC: If you want, I can tell you the first phrases of the most ancient poem in Friulian. Please: "Piruç myo doç inculurit," Which is very — is very nice, because "Piruç," is the — the pear, no, not the apple, but the pear. I don't know if the pronunciation is right — "quant yo chi vyot, dut stoy ardit." And you have a very good color, and when I see you, I'm so — I don't know — excited. RTB: Oh, that's so — WC: Why pear? Why pear? Because pear means "Piera." "Piera," which is a name. It's a joke with a name and this word, no. And so it has seven centuries, this poem. ## 49:06 — Mandi: a Friulian goodbye RTB: Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you so much for teaching that to me. I also learned, while I was there, "Mandi." WC: Okay, "Mandi." Yeah. RTB: Okay. Can you explain that to us? WC: "Mandi" is our goodbye, but also our hello — it's difficult to explain what it means, because it means "mi raccomando" — it's very difficult also to explain in Italian, but it's something like, take care of you. When we are here in Friuli, we like to use this "mandi" when we meet. But first of all, when we leave someone. RTB: Kind of like ciao. WC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. RTB: Yeah, like — yeah, I also, it's coming to my mind now, I know one more, about leaving — saying it's time to go, now. I love this because I felt like it taught me something about the warmth and the welcome of the local culture. There I was taught "Lassini come cjans." How's my pronunciation? WC: Yeah, it's very — is very good. "Lassini come cjans." RTB: So when I heard this, I thought something interesting, because usually in Italian languages, dog is not a good thing. It's a bad word — or you say, Fret come un cane, it's as cold as a dog, you know. So I thought, okay, dog is a bad thing — that means, let's leave each other like dogs, like I'm going to do you wrong in a business deal, you know, like, right. Like I'm going to do bad by you. Yeah. And they said, no, no, it means let's kiss each other a lot. Let's — we say goodbye like friendly dogs sniffing. Is that correct? WC: Yeah, yeah. My dog is — so it's a kiss, a kisser. Kiss. RTB: Yes, yes. Let's — you know, like, kind of like dogs sniffing each other, like kiss, kiss, kiss, kiss, kiss. Like, let's leave each other with many kisses. I thought that was really lovely and quite a surprise — a linguistic surprise for me. I have to ask you one more question, because behind you I see on your bulletin board it says, "I'm a drink." What is this? ## 51:42 — "I am a drink": a translation mishap WC: Oh, it's very complicated. But it's a joke of a friend of mine, because, months ago, or one year ago, a journalist interviewed the former president of Sicily, and — he lied about, I don't know what — and it's very famous, this guy, now, but it's true. And this politician, to the journalist, has said — I don't know the name — has said, Martin Luther King, "I am a dream." And he wants to say, "I have a dream." No, no — has Martin Luther King said, "I am a dream"? \[laughs\] So a friend of mine, for joking — RTB: This is right up there with JFK and the donuts, Berlin example, right? You know what I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What was that story? Do you remember the phrase? He was trying to say, "I'm a Berliner," and he said, "I'm a donut." Yeah, I'm a — WC: Donut. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is this thing the same? "I'm a dream, I drink." RTB: "I am a drink." Listen, language is hard. I credit that person for trying. I make mistakes like that every day. So let's not apologize. Let's continue to make each other laugh. I think it was important for me to learn Italian, because I did meet a lot of recent immigrants to New York who were learning English, and they would make mistakes that I thought were so funny. You know, the way that a child is funny, you know? But when you're laughing at a child who is making a mistake with language, it's because it's poetic. It's a new perspective, and you think, oh, I never thought about it that way. ## 53:55 — Find ARLeF online And I just encourage people to not be embarrassed about your mistakes. This helps me as well to say, because I make many. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Tell us your website, your social media, how people can follow you and learn more about your work. WC: The website is arlef.it, so you can find all the information, and also the links to the other medias. RTB: Arlef.it, and then we can follow you from there, on social media and everywhere. WC: \[crosstalk\] With the links to Facebook, YouTube. We have two channels. Yeah, we have a lot of things. RTB: Well, maybe one day we can make a video together. Yeah, yeah. Let me know. Really, let me know how I can help. I care a lot about — WC: Linguistic — RTB: Preservation. And it's been an absolute pleasure to talk with you. WC: Perfect. Thank you very much. RTB: Mandi. Mandi, tell us again the saying about the moon, because it reminds me of the motto of the show. WC: Actually — Ogni month, the moon changes. And every day you learn something. RTB: All right, so the motto of the show is wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy yourself and to never stop learning. Support us on Patreon. *\[NOTE: We are no longer using Patreon! Become a member* [*right here*](https://www.mododibere.com/#/portal/) *to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\]* Grab the newsletter at mododibere.com and subscribe to the YouTube channel at Modo di Bere to watch the travel show, Modo di Bere TV. Music for the show was composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou. Purchase their music at the link in the notes. Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Glasvin Founder David Kong ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e4-david-kong-glasvin/) [ Lokanda Devetak ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e2-lokanda-devetak/) ### ▷S4E2 Il cuore del linguaggio: William Cisilino parla del friulano URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s4e2-william-cisilino-friulano/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:06:06.000Z William Cisilino è il direttore di ARLeF, un'organizzazione che promuove la lingua friulana. È un esperto di spicco e un sostenitore della diversità linguistica. Il Dott. Cisilino e Rose Thomas discutono dello stato di salute della lingua friulana oggi, sia nell'Italia che nel mondo. Il Dott. Cisilino insegna a Rose Thomas un detto e una poesia friulani. Discutono della trasmissione intergenerazionale della lingua, del legame tra biodiversità e variazione linguistica, delle funzioni culturali dei detti e di chi decide se esiste una differenza tra una lingua e un dialetto. Per saperne di più sul friulano, visita il sito web di ARLeF: [https://arlef.it/](https://arlef.it/?ref=mododibere.com) Segui ARLef su [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/agjenziearlef/?hl=it&ref=mododibere.com) e [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/user/AgjenzieARLeF?ref=mododibere.com) @AgjenzieARLeF Note: La storia secondo cui il presidente degli Stati Uniti Kennedy si sarebbe accidentalmente definito una ciambella durante una visita a Berlino è un equivoco diffuso, che Rose Thomas ha scoperto essere stato sfatato dopo aver registrato questo episodio. Se ti capita di definirti un dolce mentre stai praticando una nuova lingua, ti invitiamo ad accettare gli errori come parte del processo di apprendimento della lingua! [Ascolta in inglese / Listen in English](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-en/s4e3/william-cisilino-friulano) - **Trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)Benvenuti a Modo di Bere italiano, il podcast su bevande ed detti locali, sono la conduitrice Rose Thomas Bannister. Benvenuti a modo di bere il podcast su "Bevande" e "Detti Locali". Sono la condutrice Rose Thomas Bannister. Oggi sono molto felice di intervistare William Cisilino, direttore dell 'ARLEF, un 'associazione che promotta la lingua friulana - In Udine, benvenuto. - Ed è un grande piacere essere qui con te. Sì, sì. Recentemente avevo il piacere di viaggiare in Friuli, Venezia, Giulia e anche in Slovenia, in regione della frontera per fare un documentario su vino e anche sull 'inguaggio della regione con molto, molto storia. Per favore, Dimi un po' del vostro lavoro. Allora, LARLE è un 'agenzia regionale, quindi è un ente pubblico della Regione Autonoma Friori Venezia Giulia che è una delle venti regioni italiane e delle cinque a statuto speciale, che sono la Sicilia, la Sardegna, la Vale d 'Avostra, il Trentino e il Friuli Venezia Giulia, il Friuli Venezia Giulia è collocato come ricordavi prima tu nell 'estremo Nord -Este d 'Italia, quindi al confine fra Slovenia e Austria e appunto l 'ARLEF si occupa di promuovere la lingua e quindi in maniera indireta anche la cultura friulana e lo fa diciamo, agendo su tutti i settori in cui la lingua viene coinvolta, quindi la scuola, la pubblica amministrazione, ma anche il mondo del lavoro, la sanità, la cultura, le scienze, le tecnologie. Quindi abbiamo un vasto raggio d 'azione, forse anche troppo vasto, però la lingua è così, la lingua si occupano un po' di tutto, o meglio, una lingua e una lingua nella misura in cui tende a occuparsi di tutto. Possiamo conoscere un po' il sapore di Friulano? Possiamo iniziare con un modo di dire, forse? Guarda, è sempre difficile trovare dei modi di dire in Friulano, perché quando te li chiedono, perché ce ne sono talmente tanti, tantino e molti di questi, tra l 'altro, sono anche difficilissimi da spiegare, ma sono difficili da spiegare anche un italiano, quindi figuriamoci se lo vogliamo spiegare a qualcuno che proviene da un altro stato. Uno molto bello, ad esempio, al cale al che nuia le nuie, che vuol dire qualcosa e qualcosa e niente, niente, cioè che un po' l 'arte di accontentarsi di quello che hai, è un proverbio che viene molto utilizzato tra l 'altro, esiste anche, abbiamo scoperto qualche anno fa che i giovani usano una variante di questo modo di dire che è simpatica perché fanno un gioco nomato peico fra la parola "alk" che significa qualcosa e la parola "hulk" che è l 'incredibile "hulk" e dicono "alka lealk che hulk alle verti". Qualcosa e qualcosa è "hulk verde" che non vuol dire niente tra l 'altro, no? Però abbiamo scoperto questa cosa, allora abbiamo fatto anche una cartolina che ha avuto molto successo e ha peso un po' dappertutto in friuri. avevamo stampato qualche anno fa in occasione di una festa che si fa qui a Udine in cui ti invito a venire se vuoi scoprire i veri sapori, i veri incontri col vino, col cibo, forse ne hai sentito parlare di FriuliDoc, mai mai sentito a nominare. Ecco si fa in settembre, i primi di settembre, se hai occasione di venire sarebbe un bel piacere poterti farti visitare tutti gli stand che provengono praticamente da non solo fra l 'altro dalla nostra regione ma anche oltre ma soprattutto dal Friuli e lì avevamo fatto così avevamo fatto uno stand allora abbiamo detto stampiamo 5 .000 cartoline con dei modi di dire sono andate tutte esaurite buon ristampiamone 10 .000 sono andate tutte esaurite restampiamone altre 10 .000 sono andate tutte esaurite quindi è spesso mi capita di andare in giro e di vedere queste cartoline a peso come moto di affetto dei friulani verso la loro rigua. Meraviglioso, vorrei venire in settembre, assolutamente. Sei invitata ufficialmente. Grazie, grazie mille e anche mi ha insegnato un modo di dire su "emparare" sulla luna? Sì, quello è molto bello, molto poetico perché dice "ogni mesi si fasi la luna e ogni di si impara una, no? Ogni mese c 'è una fase, una nuova fase l 'unare e ogni giorno si impara in qualcosa di nuovo" e lo si dice appunto quando si impara qualcosa di nuovo si dice sempre questa frase. In inglese diciamo una frase non così poetica, "Learn something new every day", imparare qualcosa di nuovo ogni giorno. Sì, ricordo che c 'era una canzone che diceva "Every day something new". Sì, sì, sì, è importante riemparare una parte del tema del show. Prima di molte persone mi hanno detto di parlare con Arlaf, con dottore William Cislino, avevo imparato un po' di più di Fiorano a una frase subere. Tanto per cambiare. L 'age gli ebuine per crots. Perfetta. L 'acqua va bene per le rane. Agli italiani che ascoltano si avvece un modo di dire su non bere acqua, scrivimi al misciteweb mododibere .com perché è molto importante per la mia ricerca. Parliamo un po' della storia, della questa regione molto culturale. Beh, è una regione molto complessa perché qui si incontrano, l 'unico posto in Europa dove si incontrano le tre grandi culture, no, del nostro continente. Quella Latina, come il Friulano e l 'Italiano, ma la lingua originale del posto è il Friulano, lo sloveno, quindi la lingua eslave e il tedesco, la lingua e le culture germaniche. Qui si incontrano almeno da 1500 anni, cioè proprio da quando sono arrivati i primi popoli germanici e le prime popolazioni eslave a contatto con un popolo latino che comunque aveva forte e substrato celtico e quindi questo mix è un po' sintetizzato dalla lingua friulana, perché la lingua friulana è nient 'altro che una lingua romanza appartenente al gruppo delle lingue reto romanze, questa è un po' una stranezza perché noi apparteniamo con i ladini dolomitici e i romanci della Svizzera, no, ha una categoria specifica dei lingue friulana E il friurano, dicevo, è un po' una sintesi di questo perché è una lingua romanza che al suo interno ha molti inserti germanici e slavi e anche dei substrati precedenti, quindi cerdici, anche delle lingue che si sono comunque delle popolazioni che sono solo passate più o meno di qua, anche tanto perché se no si sono fermate, se non avremmo questi termini, penso i gotti per esempio per citare una popolazione. Quindi una storia complessa fatta di scontri, ma anche di convivenza. Tira i esemplari, da questo punto di vista la convivenza culturale, che purtroppo con i nazionalismi dell 'ottocento, invece è diventata, mano a mano, teatro di guerra della Prima Guerra Mondiale in particolare, ma anche della seconda. è sostanzialmente fino all 'altro giorno, con la guerra fredda, eravamo in primo paese vicino alla cortina di Ferro, se escludiamo l 'Austria e la Germania ci siamo noi, ci eravamo noi qua. Quindi diciamo le priorità, i problemi non erano pochi, qui ospitiamo una base nata molto importante ad l 'Aviano con delle testate atomiche, quindi sì, siamo in una posizione per fortuna e purtroppo cruciale per l 'Europa. Quante persone parlano friulano in Friuli Venezia Giulia e anche in altre parti del mondo? Allora, in Friuli diciamo, dico Friuli perché nella Venezia Giulia è propriamente detta, quindi l 'area di Trieste, diciamo, è qualcosa di più, non si parla tradizionalmente friulano, anticamente si parlava una sorta di antico friulano, ma diciamo ormai da -150 anni non si parla più. Una lingua veneziana, forse? Sì, sì, adesso si parla una lingua, sono un dialetto di matrice Veneta, però che si è unito con un substrato, comunque non Veneto, che era appunto questo substrato tergestino e muglisano, che appunto poi sono quelle che rendono caratteristico anche il triestino. Diciamo la lingua si parla in Friuli, grosso modo nelle provincie di Port Denone e Udi -Negorizia, più un pezzettino anche della provincia di Venezia che sta nella regione Veneto e la parlano circa 500 mila persone, quindi Friuli, un altro milione si calcola, questo è un calcolo più approssimativo, mentre 500 mila sono già dei numeri più reali perché derivano da una ricerca che tra l 'altro abbiamo appena presentato e quindi diciamo la paradossale è il fatto che si parla più Friulano probabilmente fuori dal Friuli che non in Friuli. Anche in New York no perché generalmente l 'idea popolare è che molte persone che vengono a New York sono di Italia del Sud no? C 'erano persone friulane qui? E diciamo che non abbiamo avuto un Francis Ford Coppola friulano e quindi diciamo, no questa è una battuta ovviamente, viva Francis Ford Coppola. Diciamo che l 'emigrazione friulana è stata molto forte soprattutto dopo l 'unità d 'Italia, dopo diciamo l 'unificazione della parte friulana con l 'Italia, da lì fino sostanzialmente a per cent 'anni c 'è stata una forte migrazione con dei picchi molto alti e anche verso gli Stati Uniti e anche verso New York ci sono vari ricerchi anche su questo e tanto è vero che a New York appunto esiste un fogolar furlan cioè un punto di riferimento per l 'emigrazione friulana con una sua sede, quindi questo testimonio al fatto che anche a New York c 'erano dei friulani, so che moltissimi anche persone che portavano il mio cognome sono sbarcate lì da voi per poter trovare e dare un futuro alle loro famiglie, i friulani lo dico con orgoglio, perché me lo ricordava fra l 'altro recentemente anche un astronauta degli USA che si chiama Greg Linteris, lui ha fatto delle missioni alla fine degli anni '90 e lui è Friulano, perché è di genitori Friulani, che erano emigrati negli Stati Uniti, diciamo lui mi ricordava con grande orgoglio, quello che ricordo anche io con grande orgoglio, che i friulani in tutti i posti del mondo in cui sono andati si sono distinti per la loro onesta e per la loro grande laboriosità e affidabilità e questo io lo può dire chiunque, quindi non è una cosa che invento io, ma tutti le diranno che i friulani erano e sono spero, ma quella volta sicuramente erano onesti e affidabili. Mi anche quasi commosso Greg Linteris quando lo diceva, perché era anche lui molto trasportato, lo ricordo Greg Linteris perché a parte che è anche un grande studioso di cose legate alle missioni spaziali, ma questa è una e quando lui ha andato in missione con lo Space Shuttle, ha portato la bandiera del Friuli con sé. Tanto era l 'attaccamento ed è ancora verso il Friuli che lui ha e verso queste caratteristiche del popolo frionano. Davvero trovo la caratteristica amabile, di onesta. Infatti mi ricordo una un amore dire che ho imparato in Fuli, la cinica mecchians, la cinica ecco... - Noi stiamo la sasi come chians. - Sì, e al tempo, quando ho imparato questo, pensavo che ha una significa "malo", perché il cane in italiano è una cosa male, come fa freddo cane o come parte di un bestemio, no? Anche ho pensavo che il modo di dire in Friulano significa come facciamo una cosa male, però no, miei amici Friulani mi hanno spiegato che il modo di dire significa che facciamo molte quando partiamo. È molto dolce secondo me. È bello, è bello. Mi piace molto anche a me quel modo di dire. Mi piace parlare di questo del posto, del modo di dire e il modo linguistico. E anche mi di parlare con scienza di linguistica la differenza tra un dialetto e un linguaggio. La differenza fra un dialetto e una lingua in realtà non esiste da un punto di vista linguistico, esiste solo da un punto di vista sociolinguistico e lo Sintetizzava molto bene il Professor Weinreich quando ha detto la famosa frase che le lingue non sono nient 'altro che dialetti con una marina ed un esercito che poi si andate su Wikipedia e spiegata un po' meglio una storia più lunga questa qua in realtà non è sua la frase ma è di uno suo studente di New York, perché no, Wainwright viveva a New York, dopo essere scappato dalla Lituania, dall 'attuale Lituania, non so se era Lituania ancora quella volta, e quindi durante questa lezione appunto questo signore, no, gli ha detto "io so sintetizzare meglio di te la differenza fra un amico in dialetto e poi lui l 'ha scritto ed è rimasta così. Questa è la verità perché le lingue sono un club, un club restretto, aristocratico, in cui si entra solo se un altro membro ti fa entrare, oppure se con la forza tu riesci a entrare anche in quel club, c 'è anche questa opzione, ma di solito si entra così, le lingue minoritarie fanno parte di un 'ordine minore di questo club, quindi non sono come le altre lingue, sono un po' meno, c 'è una sorta di nobiltà poi all 'interno noi, quindi di ranghi nobiliari fra le lingue, detto ciò diciamo che fra una lingua e un dialetto di solito comunque ci sono anche delle differenze, perché ad esempio mentre sia per una lingua, sia per un dialetto, puoi trovare della literatura. Per esempio, i dialetti non hanno una sensibilità verso la standardizzazione, perché non essendo riconosciuti allo stato, non hanno bisogno di essere utilizzati in determinati ambiti e non avendo bisogno di essere utilizzati in quei determinati ambiti, non hanno necessità di essere standardizzati. Ecco, già ha la presenza di una lingua standard, di una grafia ufficiale, di un lavoro sul corpo slinguistico fatto in un 'unica direzione, sono sintomatici del fatto che ci troviamo davanti ad una lingua. Però tutti questi sono discorsi fatti come si dice in italiano "aria fritta" perché alla fine se uno stato riconosce un dialetto come lingua, quel dialetto diventa lingua, abbiamo varie esperienze nel mondo di questo, non sono puramente degli esempi che faccio io così di fantasia. Sì, di parlare con italiani su dialetto di lingua locale e mi lavoro e la mia gioia, è interessante secondo me perché molte persone parlano dialetto locale. Quando incontro con una persona da Verona, Sicilia e altre poste, mi dice "no, non è un dialetto, è una lingua" e quanto queste persone parlano con me su queste cose, mi dicono spesso che la differenza è letteratura. è l 'Incipit, è il titolo della prima poesia in Friulano che è del quattordicesimo secolo, quindi metà, seconda metà del 1300, ma qualcuno sostiene che sia precedente, lo che dice "peruc mio docin culurit, quanti io ti vi ho dusto iardita" dopo avanti, che vuol dire "pera mia colorata, dolce e colorata, quando ti vedo sono tutto ardito, significa entusiasta e citato, è molto bella, è una poesia cortese che fa riferimento con questo Pyrrhus probabilmente è una ragazza che si chiamava Piera, Pierrina, Pyrrute, Pierrucce, anche in Friulano. E quindi Sì, è interessante che il friulano del medioevo, noi i friulani di oggi lo capiamo ancora molto bene. Non c 'è molta diversità fra il friulano del medioevo e il friulano di adesso. C 'è molta, molta più diversità fra l 'italiano del medioevo e l 'italiano di adesso, anche perché, ovviamente, ci sarebbe un lungo discorso da fare. Però il friulano medievale si capisce Mi ha detto il Nome della una donna una scrittrice? Sì perché diciamo il padre se vogliamo individuare un padre della nostra lingua è stato Hermes di Coloredo che è stato un poeta del 600 che ha che è stato poi preso ad esempio da tutti gli scrittori successivi un po come Dante, Martin Lutero eccetera eccetera e La madre è sicuramente Caterina Percotto, che è stata una grande scrittrice italiana, ma è stata anche una grande scrittrice in Friulano ed è stata lei che si è posta di più, giustamente come donna, perché le donne sono molto avanti in questo, si è posta di più il problema della norma e quindi i suoi scritti sono esemplari, esemplari nel addirittura costruire una norma che sostanzialmente non esisteva, quindi c 'è molto ordine, molta testa, non solo nella capacità della lingua che non è poesia tra l 'altro mai prosa, anche questo è importante da dire, è una prosatrice, ma tanto, tanto ordine e tanta testa e quindi noi dobbiamo essere grati a questa grande donna dell 'Ottocento che ci ha dato tanto nel costruire la nostra lingua. E poi tante altre donne abbiamo avuto. Come aiuta le persone di parlare molte lingue e può parlare un po' del vostro lavoro con la famiglia, l 'engua della casa? Si parlava anche di l 'importanza della lingua a casa o a scuola. La risposta è a casa e a scuola perché sono due ambiti diversi. A casa impari la lingua degli affetti. E la lingua più profonda lo diceva sempre Dante Alighieri, che quella è la lingua più profonda, la lingua che impari dalla mamma e dal papà. Diciamo che la lingua della scuola invece è la lingua dove si va ad approfondire la letteratura, la storia, la geografia, le tradizioni di un popolo, ed entrambe sono importanti per forgiare la conoscenza linguistica. Il fatto di conoscere fra l 'altro una lingua minoritaria o un 'altra, qualsiasi lingua da bambini, sappiamo benissimo che aiuta anche l 'apprendimento linguistico di altre lingue. Quindi sicuramente il sapere due lingue da bambini contemporaneamente ti crea già come delle predisposizioni, queste sono ricerche scientifiche ormai ripetute e comprovate da anni, ti crea delle condizioni per imparare meglio altre lingue. Certo è che il poliglott al multilingue a volte può confondersi, questo ci sta nel giocco, però può anche più facilmente arrivare a imparare altre lingue, può anche più facilmente arrivare ad altre lingue, anche se non le sa, perché anche questo è da diersi, no? C 'è gente che magari è un 'ottima conoscenza, magari magari è inglese, di madre lingua inglese come te, ma magari è una conoscenza dello spagnolo del portoghese che sicuramente imparerà prima l 'italiano, sapendo quelle lingue, e sicuramente poi si sbaglierà fra quelle tre lingue, mettiamo che sappiano lo spagnolo, il portoghese e l 'italiano, perché tutte tre derivano dal latino, però le parerà con più facilità avendo già nella sua testa una di quelle lingue neonatine. Quindi come abbiamo avuto un modo di dire anche conversando prima di questo podcast bisogna anche non imbarazzarsi nello sbagliare le lingue, è una cosa che io dico sempre anche a quelli che vogliano avvicinarsi al friulano, quindi siamo nel regno della il regno in cui uno piano a piano si avvicina a una lingua dopo è chiaro che se uno vive in un determinato contesto poi con più facilità assume le caratteristiche di quel contesto anche linguistico e per esempio impara i modi di dire o che sono il vero modo per capire se uno ha imparato bene una lingua, ha imparato a conoscere bene una lingua. Che bello! Durante interviste in inglese mi ha insegnato una cosa della segno nell 'officina, la "I'm a drink"? Ecco, "I'm a drink" è proprio un errore che ha fatto un ex presidente della regione Sicilia che evidentemente non conosce bene l 'inglese, che è stato intervistato non mi ricordo in merito a cosa e lui è disse testualmente, come ha detto Martin Luther King, "I am a drink". Allora un mio amico per farmi uno scherzo mi ha regalato questa cosa, io l 'ho appesa, "I am a drink". Mi ricordo un momento con il Presidente dei Stati Uniti, JFK in Berlin, qual è cosa con una donna. E' importante secondo me di ridere e imparare insieme per non essere troppo importante di queste cose perché è difficile di imparare quando abbiamo vergogna, no? Sì, sì, non bisogna, non bisogna aver vergogna. Chiaramente bisogna sempre sforzarsi di imparare, di imparare meglio, di studiare nei limiti del possibile, anche perché non tutti possono mettersi li a studiare ore e ore da una lingua. Per me il modo migliore è cercare di, come dire, almeno ne ritagli di tempo se si può di coltivarla, almeno con la lettura, visto che oggi siamo fortunati abbiamo i vari media con cui possiamo accedere ai contenuti linguistici di utilizzarli più possibile. Se pensiamo che fino a qualche anno fa bisognava avere dischi di vinile per imparare una lingua, ed anche quelli prima, eppure in Europa nell 'Ottocento tutte le persone colte sapevano le lingue, le principale lingua europee, cioè Schopenhauer sapeva, era di madrelingua tedesca, ma sapeva molto bene il francese e l 'italiano per esempio, l 'inglese, non riusciva a leggere opere in originale in queste lingue. Avete in vostro lavoro un aiuto per gli adulti che non avevano l 'opportunità di studiare Friulano quando erano giovane? Sì sì, abbiamo dei corsi per adulti che sono molto frequentati, sono organizzati prevalentemente dalla società filologica filulana che è una realtà molto antica, da molto tempo si occupa di questo e noi la sosteniamo e ogni anno insomma quasi un migliaio di persone si formano. Adesso con una formazione online ci ha permesso di aumentare anche i numeri e di rendere fruibili a questa iniziativa anche a chi non vive in Friuli. Fra un po' partire anche la certificazione ufficiale nella lingua Friulana, quindi uno si potrà certificare in Friulano qui all 'ARLEF e appunto stiamo organizzando dei corsi proprio anche per orientare questa certificazione nei vari livelli che sono quelli poi classici riconosciuti dall 'Europa. Il sogno di diversità del mondo, come Margen Luther King è anche importante per me e anche ho un sogno più piccolo di organizzare una conversazione tra una scienza di linguistica e una scienza di diversità su le domande, come si dice, taxonomiche. Taxonomiche, sì. Sì, sì, su biodiversità, specificamente le uve, i vittini autotini, e come studiamo la differenza tra i diversi tipi di vitini ottoctili e anche, o come si dice, the family tree. Sì, l 'albero genealogico. Sì, di lingua locale. Sì. Allora, con i linguisti mi piace molto parlare sulla connezione tra biodiversità e diversità linguistica. Possiamo parlare di questa cosa? Sono sicuro che queste due cose siano molto collegate e un americano che sicuramente conosci, no, notissimo, Noam Chomsky ha scritto molto su questo, no, su un collegamento fra la diversità degli esseri umani e la diversità delle lingue, pur teorizzando che comunque ci sia un 'origine comune per tutti e quindi è sicuramente corretto dire che preservare la biodiversità, anche se poi il concetto di biodiversità è molto più complesso, ma adesso non possiamo fare qui un tratato di biologia, ma comunque preservare la biodiversità è molto vicino al preservare le lingue del mondo che appunto ricordiamo sono 7 .000 e di queste due terzi sono in pericolo. Quindi dobbiamo chiederci se il fatto che fra 100 anni si parli come si calcola solo metà di queste lingue sia un guadagno per l 'umanità o non sia invece una grande periodità perché oltre al portato culturale che hanno queste lingue, gli esseri umani che le parlano, c 'è anche una visione del mondo che viene meno, una lingua, una visione del mondo. Noi perché facciamo turismo perché andiamo in giro a visitare tu, l 'Italia, io magari l 'America, perché vogliamo vedere qualcosa di diverso. L 'istinto ci porta a questo. La globalizzazione, che può avere anche i suoi lati positivi, tu in qualsiasi parte del mondo occidentale più o meno trovi le stesse cose, sei più rilassato e tranquillo. Però questa non è la chiave, non è la chiave. Quindi dobbiamo trovare il giusto equilibrio fra avere dei valori comuni, anche dei valori minimi per lo meno comuni, perché noi su questo noi occidentali tendiamo ad essere un po' arroganti nel senso che crediamo che i valori comuni siano i nostri e non è proprio così. Quindi almeno dei valori minimi comuni, però rispettare le diversità, no? E i primi a non rispettarle siamo noi occidentali fra l 'altro, perché ci lagniamo tanto degli altri, degli altri che sicuramente non saranno grandi amanti della diversità, ma non è che noi siamo così tanto meglio. Sto completamente d 'accordo. Parliamo un po' di più su lavoro di Arlev tra i diversi parti, dal Miria, con la famiglia, eccetera. Allora, ci occupiamo veramente, lo dicevo all 'inizio e non era per esagerare, anzi lo dico con rammarico, con disperazione, che ci occupiamo di troppe cose. Vorrei che si occupasse di meno cose l 'Arlev, però ci occupiamo di tante cose. Per esempio, ci occupiamo molto di fornire alla scuola, quindi agli allievi ai docenti, dei supporti per l 'ensegnamento della lingua. Cerchiamo anche di favorire molto la presenza della lingua frurana nella pubblica amministrazione. Stiamo sempre di più lavorando sulla trasmissione generazionale. Ora abbiamo da anni un bel progetto con gli ospedali Videl Friuli, dove andiamo a regalare il mio genitori una specie di kit di sopravvivenza sul multilinguismo e anche sulla lingua Friulana. Abbiamo molta soddisfazione perché viene sempre ricevuto con piacere dei genitori e anche dei genitori che non sono Friulani, anche perché il piccolo libretto anche che inseriamo in questa valigetta, insegna come gestire il plurilinguismo in casa a prescindere che sia il friulano che sia un altro idioma al veicolo del plurilinguismo. Questo viene molto apprezzato e devo anche dire che molte famiglie, non solo le famiglie friulane, ovviamente, ma anche molte famiglie che provengono da fuori apprezzano le attività che facciamo per la lingua friulana e iscrivano ai propri figli e corsi di lingua friulana. Anche qui perché chi viene da fuori vuole capire meglio questa terra e vuole integrarsi e abbiamo anche molti immigrati che parlano friulano. E possiamo parlare su sulle cose grammatiche di Friulano, quale cosa è interessante sulla struttura della lingua? È una lingua neolattina, no? E fra lingua neolattina è una di quelle che hanno conservato di più l 'originale, perché è paradossalmente più ti distanzi dal centro e più mantieni i caratteri che il centro invece va perdendo, quindi abbiamo mantenuto molte caratteristiche del latino originario, non farò degli esempi per non annoiare, abbiamo però anche dei forti influisi ancora delle lingue che si parlavano prima di Roma, quindi del celtico, parliamo di 2 .500 anni fa, 2 .500 anni fa però ci sono ancora queste parole e anche questi suoni che che influenzano il friulano e poi abbiamo delle caratteristiche proprio specifiche della lingua friulana ad esempio noi mentre l 'italiano a 7 vocali noi ne abbiamo 14 magari una quando parla non se ne rende conto ma tutte queste cose sono molto complesse E quando le vede un linguista, io in realtà ho una formazione giuridica e mi sono formato successivamente più che sui caratteri linguistici del frurano che conosco, ma soprattutto sulla politica linguistica, che sono quelle azioni che venono svolte per preservare una lingua. Però Devo dire che soprattutto ad esempio che si occupa di fonologia e si avvicina alla lingua frulana scopre un mondo, no? Quindi sinceramente le caratteristiche sono veramente tante, ovviamente nell 'alveo di quelle che sono le lingue neolattine e il frulano si caratterizza per essere conservativo. Il friulano è conservativo, rispetto ad esempio agli idiomi che si parlano nel vicino Veneto, nella Lombardia e anche in centro Italia, che hanno caratteri un po' più omogenei rispetto a determinati fenomeni linguistici che si sono realizzati durante il corso dei secoli. Dottore Cislino, perché ha scelto studiare lingua e perché ha scelto di iniziare questo lavoro di preservare il lingua? Come inizia per lei? Diciamo che fin da ragazzino ero molto attirato dalla lingua frionana, no? Se però devo trovare il momento in cui ho avuto una piccola in uminazione quando avevo credo 8 o 9 anni, ho sentito il preto del mio paese che parlava con un altro preto di lingua friulana e stavano sostenendo che una certa parola derivava dal greco, antico. Allora io quando ho sentito questa cosa qua ho detto "ma come il friulano deriva dal greco?" Allora non è così male, così sfigato come sembra, non si deriva dal greco e quindi lì non mi hanno messo un tarlo e poi, insomma, ero molto appassionato anche delle storie che mi raccontava mia nonna, quindi fin del ragazzino avevo questa cosa che mi scorreva, poi quando io ho fatto i miei studi in legge e mi sono specializzato nella tutela delle lingue minoritarie, tutta la giuridica da lingue minoritarie, poi ho anche fatto degli studi specialistici all 'Università di Udine sulla lingua friulana, ho incominciato a occuparmi di queste cose nel giornalismo e poi alla fine sono entrato in amministrazione da tanti e troppi anni ravvo nella amministrazione per portare avanti questo tipo di azione, devo dire che ci credo ancora molto come se fosse il primo giorno anche di più. Bravo, e per favore si c 'è una cosa che posso fare per aiutare, presevare la lingua Friulana, voglio aiutare. Grazie, grazie. Ti metteremo sicuramente al lavoro, - Sì, sì, sì. Grazie mille per parlare con me. Che cosa di più vuoi dire agli ascoltatori? - Ma su Friulano voglio dire che se uno ha la possibilità di accedere soprattutto i nostri testi letterari che non sono tanto conosciuti, no? Diciamo il poeta più conosciuto è Pierpaolo Pasurini, un altro autore molto conosciuto perché ha scritto anche in italiano è Carlos Gorlon, però sono poco, diciamo, conosciuti come autori di lingua friulana, quindi chi ha la possibilità, la fortuna di poter accedere a questi autori, magari anche di primo achitto in italiano, ma se poi arriva il Friulano sicuramente potrà apprezzarli molto ovviamente, soprattutto nella poesia. E per quanto riguarda invece, diciamo così, i discorsi legati a questa regione, veramente invito chi non ha fatto a visitare questa regione a saporare proprio un piccolo compendio dell 'universo, come diceva i Pauli Tonnevo, diceva che il Friuli è stato un grande scrittore della letteratura italiana ed era Friulano, diceva che il Friuli è un piccolo compendio dell 'universo, una piccola sintesi dell 'universo ed è vero perché qui questo incrocio di cultura è perlomeno dell 'universo europeo, c 'è, è ancora presente, è vero E noi stiamo facendo di tutto per preservarlo e regalarlo ai nostri figli. Bravi! Tentiamo di farlo, dai! È un grande piacere di parlare di queste cose e per me la mia carriera è in vino, studiavo molto lingua e è una cosa, una passione mia. È molto importante per me ogni opportunità per parlare con linguistico. Allora, grazie. Grazie a te e grazie a tutti quelli che hanno avuto la pazienza di ascoltarmi finora. Come possiamo seguirci sul sito web eccetera? Abbiamo il sito web che è www .arlef .it e lì si trovano anche tutti tutti gli agganci, tutti gli altri social, siamo su Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube con due canali fra l 'altro quindi abbiamo tanto offerta da questo punto di vista se uno vuole seguirci poi ovviamente c 'è anche la newsletter. Si ascolti un friolano? Si sei un friolano da diverse parte del mondo vi trovi questo episodio di podcast, per favore scrivimi "ossiamo parlare". Grazie ancora ai nostri ascoltatori, ovunque tu vada e qualunque cosa tu beva, ricorda di goderti la vita e di non smettere mai di imparare. La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto eregistrato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Montato da [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com). [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S4E1 Amore dalla roccia a Lokanda Devetak URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s4e1-lokanda-devetak/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:06:52.000Z Quando il nonno di Tatjana Devetak disse di voler ricavare una cantina di vini di livello mondiale dalla solida roccia dell'altopiano carsico, tutti gli diedero del pazzo. "Chi verrà a vederla?", si chiedeva la gente, mentre scolpiva ogni pietra a mano. Poi gli scavi hanno portato alla luce una trincea della Prima Guerra Mondiale, sepolta sotto lo straordinario ristorante e locanda di questa famiglia, dove viaggiatori e cittadini godono dell'ospitalità della famiglia Devetak dal 1870\. Lo spazio extra ha permesso alla famiglia Devetak di realizzare il suo sogno di un programma in cui i vini locali, che crescono dalla stessa roccia ruvida, siano presentati con lo stesso orgoglio della lingua madre slovena della famiglia. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/devetak-family-format-original.jpg) Questo episodio è stato registrato sul posto con suoni di cucina, frigorifero e telefono. Tatjana traduce per suo padre, Avguštin Devetak, e parla anche per sé. Una visita alla Lokanda Devetak a San Michele del Carso, non lontano dal confine con la Slovenia, è altamente consigliata. [www.devetak.com](http://www.devetak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Segui Devetak su Instagram: [@lokandadevetak](https://www.instagram.com/lokandadevetak/?ref=mododibere.com) Rose Thomas dice: "Mentre mi sedevo accanto alla finestra con le tende di pizzo e conoscevo la famiglia Devetak attraverso una cena che esprimeva la cultura del Carso con amore e orgoglio, ho pensato: 'Questo ristorante ha il suo terroir'. La famiglia Devetak mi ha ricordato perché tutti noi facciamo quello che facciamo, ristorazione, viticoltori, sommelier e scrittori. Dopo sei generazioni di ospitalità, la Lokanda Devetak è il massimo della tradizione culinaria locale. I pasti che ho gustato lì sono stati tra i migliori della mia vita." [Ascolta in inglese / Listen in English](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-en/s3e10/love-from-solid-rock-at-lokanda-devetak) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)Si vive in presente per pensare al futuro, ma guardando le origini del passato. Benvenuti a modo di bereero italiano, il podcast su bevande ed detti locali. Sono la conduitrice Rose Thomas Bannister. Today I'm here at my favorite restaurant, Locanda de Vatac, with Tatiana and Agustin, which have il posto per sei generazioni. Questa esperienza buona per me stamattina con una frittata fatto da Agustin e a Roma, una Roma della cucina e Gabriella mi ha portato nella cucina di vedere e per me anche mi interessano molto i produttori agricoltori originale. Allora è una esperienza buona per me e anche per il vino probabilmente e il vino perché tanti personi mi mi ha consigliato di visitare sono qui di esplorare di condividere la storia dei diversi regioni di vino qui alla fronte era adesso Italia e Slovenia no il vino il vino del territorio e questa cantina bellissima Era sempre una parte della storia dell 'acquanda d 'Evetac, o è una passione sua? La passione del vino è arrivata negli anni, quando avevo una trentina d 'anni, quando ho visitato un produttore di vino del Colio. Io fino all 'ora, l 'acquanda d 'Evetac, che una volta si chiamava "Ghostilna d 'Evetac" in slovena trattoria d 'Evetac, si beveva l 'ivino bianco e il vino rosso della casa. Quella visita in Cantina di un certo signor Josco Grauner a Slavia nel 1987 mi ha cambiato la vita. Dopo tre ore di Cantina, quando siamo arrivati su, lui non mi ha fatto assaggiare neanche un calice di vino, anzi mi ha fatto assaggiare un goccio di vino e mi ha detto "questo per te adesso basta, ora e poi se vuoi avere il mio vino devi imparare come si fa col vino e da lì è incominciata la mia passione per i vini del nostro territorio e anche fuori. Ah, che bella storia! E per me riconosco il nome, ma per tutti ascoltatori possiamo spiegare chi è Groudner? Giosko Grauner è un abitante, un contadino del Collio, che era il paradino della viticoltura slovena in Italia. Lui era uno dei promotori, diciamo fra virgolette, del vino naturale, vino pulito, il primo che ha usato sul Collio le barricche, il primo che le ha eliminato l 'Ebariq, il primo che ha cominciato a macerare i chikiluva sulle bucce, il primo che ha portato le anfere sul colio. Siamo che era un promotore del colio, era un innovatore però tornando al passato. Secondo me è l 'immagine della gente dei viticoltori, dei vinaioli che lavora. Ancora adesso, tutti i locali, i maggiori ristoranti del mondo, hanno una bottiglia di Osco Grounder. E' la ragione per il vino arromato nel mondo? E' lui che ha inspirato questo? Sì, lui con lui stanco Radicon e con lui la castellata, i primi tre che hanno fatto la macerazione sulle bucce con Walter Mlecznik al mio primo lavoro in un nenoteca di un uomo italiano da Stardegna con molto mobili vecchi e grande atmosfera. C 'era una tecca con i vini più importanti e al cento reale è una bottiglia di gramma. Sì, sì. Allora, questo è un podcast, sì, divino della storia che vino può raccontare, del territorio, della storia, ma anche un podcast sul linguaggio, il linguaggio lo vale, i dialetti eccetera. Allora quando abbiamo iniziato l 'intervista io parlavo come sto parlando con gli italiani perché maggior parte del mio tempo sì e Agustin diceva no siamo della madre nengossolenia. Allora per favore parliamo un po' di più. Prima di tutto prima parlavamo del vino, il o vino macerazione sulle bucce, era Giosco Granno che aveva detto che ha cominciato con stanco radicom, con benza… Niko. Niko. Poi si sono accodati Fiegel, Primozic, Il Carpino e Princic, sono i sette di Oslovia. Però non dobbiamo dimenticare il Carso, il Carso che fa parte della Venezia Giulia, Friuli, Venezia Giulia. Sul Carso abbiamo anche un po' di viticoltori, così mi collego con il popolo sloveno che vive in Italia. Sul Carso abbiamo dei produttori di vino molto famosi, anzi sono quelli che hanno valorizzato il Carso come Vodopives, che è un grande viticoltore di macerazione, come Siddharish, come Skirk, come Mattei Skirli e non dimentichiamo cante o cocianti. Sono tutti il simbolo del popolo sloveno che lavora in Italia, perché sul Carso, sul Collio si parla lo sloveno in Italia, perché il Carso e il Collio fino al 1917 era sotto l 'Austro -Ungheria, sopra il popolo a Sburglicio per 540 anni. Sotto l 'Austria e l 'ingria si parlava l 'Italia e lo sloveno, il tedesco, il friulano e l 'italiano. Dopo il 17 quando l 'Italia ci ha occupato, siamo rimasti sotto l 'Italia e abbiamo subito tante cose che non si può dire sotto il fascismo e da lì abbiamo cominciato a parlare l 'italiana, però noi siamo la comunità slovena in italia e siamo orgogliose naturalmente in questi venti vent 'anni dal 17 al 45 25 anni non si poteva parlare lo slovena si parlava solo l 'italiano con la seconda guerra mondiale poi è tutto è tutto è tutto cambiato e piano a piano incominciamo a avere la nostra tutela della comunità Sdovena in Italia. E proprio oggi a Trieste si si è il Presidente Mattarella e il Presidente Pachor che prenderanno una laurea di honoris causa per quello che hanno fatto per le comunità Sdovene in Italia e le comunità italiane in Sdovenia. Proprio nel 2016 c 'è stato da noi un pranzo di riconciliazione tra il popolo sdoveeno e il popolo italiano in onore della prima guerra mondiale hanno inaugurato un monumento ai cattuti sdoveeni e dopo 100 anni i due presidenti si sono trovati al monumento e hanno fatto da noi il pranzo di rimocidazione. Chi è il carso? E' una roca? in un posto, in una cultura, per l 'anno del roccio, di vedere la cantina, è incredibile la storia che potete parlare un po' della cantina qui, da quando deve te? Allora la cantina abbiamo fatta nel 1994, abbiamo visitato io e la Gabri, mia moglie, tante ristoranti, tante cantini, giro tante zone di divino e abbiamo deciso di farla anche noi. Tutti i nostri vicini ci sembrano ma cosa siete pazzi fare una cantina nella roccia quanto vi costava, chi vera su a vederla. E noi abbiamo cominciato per quattro mesi abbiamo scavato della pietra, abbiamo portato le pietre in una dolina, dolina è un 'insenatura che sono queste doline del carso primo, primordiali, e mio padre per circa tre mesi ha scalpelato la pietra, la modellata, la broccata e l 'impresa ha fatto i muri. È un po' incredibile, è impossibile di spiegare la risposta alla domanda, chi venga di vedere questa cosa pazza io è impossibile di non vedere che c 'è tanta storia qui allora per favore parliamo un po' della storia e del questo edificio delle 6 generazioni qui in locando da Vetec. Adesso in posto dove siamo qua il pezzo più vecchio della casa dove tutto è cominciato circa 150 anni fa. I nostri avi erano calzolaio, infatti qua in questo pezzo c 'è il museo del calzolaio, mentre il mio bisbisbisbis nonno Ivan riparava le scarpe, sua moglie offriva ai clienti un po' di minestra, un bicchiere di vino e da lì è cominciato tutto. Che cosa di più del wrestle della casa? Come ha cresciuto tutto l 'erifizio qui? E Tatiana come è crescere in questo museo? Nel 1870 la casa era una piccola casa con tetto di paglia, poi negli anni hanno cominciato a costruirla, hanno fatta di pietra eccetera. Nel 1915 quando arrivata la Prima Guerra Mondiale hanno dovuto lasciare le proprie case perché qua c 'era la guerra, sono state evacuati in un posto più sicuro a Brook Underlight, fra l 'Austria e la Repubblica Czecha. Quando sono ritornati, nel 1918, il tutto il paese era stato distrutto, quindi hanno dovuto ricostruire tutto da capo. Sono andati via che erano, che si pagava in corone e si parlava in tedesco e discosloveno e sono tornati che si pagava il lire e si parlava solo italiano. La mia trisnonna non sapeva parlare italiano, quindi è tornata che è strana, è tornata a casa ma era una strana. Mio nonno era contadino e tutto il giorno stava nei campi, la sera tornava e serviva da bere i paesani. Quando arrivato l quando è arrivata l 'edificità, l 'acqua, dagli anni '60 in poi, cominciate ad arrivare anche gente da fuori e quindi l 'attività si è un po' allargata. Poi mio padre, quando ho preso in mano, ha cominciato a allargare ancora di più. Nel corso di 40 anni ha aggiunto una sala, aggiunto un pezzo di giardino, ha aggiunto tutto più a più all 'anno. È bellissimo adesso, non avevo una grande ricerca prima di visitare qui in Locando de Vete, che è soltanto che tutte le persone mi hanno consigliato di visitare. Era un 'esperienza come forse il Bisbis Nono, un benvenuto alla casa e posso sentire la stessa cosa e una cena non solo i produttori locali dalla sorella di Tatiana preparata dalla mamma il vino c 'è rialta da Agostin perfetto con ogni cosa e potevo dormire bene nella stanza bella e adesso io posso unire con tutte le persone che consigliano di visitare. Allora, fare visitare qui è un 'esperienza meravigliosa. E' importante per me, per me è un grande mondo del linguaggio, no? Allora, per me l 'entrata è in modo di dire, no? Posso vedere che parlate in tante lingue, no? Che modo di dire possiamo condividere qui? Il canico Birekli si vive in presente per pensare al futuro, ma guardando le origini del passato. Bravo, bravi, grazie. Grazie per tutto il lavoro della famiglia. Ovunque tu vada e qualunque cosa tu beva ricorda di goderti la vita e non smetterei mai di imparare. La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto eregistrato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Montato da [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com). [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S4E2 Love from Solid Rock at Lokanda Devetak URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e2-lokanda-devetak/ Last updated: 2026-09-12T01:44:19.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/amore-dalla-roccia-a-lokanda-devetak/) When Tatjana Devetak's grandfather said he wanted to carve a world-class wine cellar out of the solid rock of the Karst plateau, everyone said he was crazy. "Who will come to see it?" people said, as he carved each stone by hand. Then the excavation uncovered a trench from World War I, buried below this family's extraordinary restaurant and inn, where travelers and locals alike have enjoyed the hospitality of the Devetak family since 1870\. The extra space enabled the Devetak family to realize their dreams of a program where the local wines, which grow up from the same harsh rock, are showcased with the same pride as the family's Slovenian mother tongue. This episode was recorded onsite with sounds of kitchen, refrigerator and telephone. Tatjana translates for her father, Avguštin Devetak, and also speaks for herself. A note from Rose Thomas: "As I sat down beside the lace-curtained window and got to know the Devetak family through a dinner that expressed the culture of the Karst with love and pride, I thought, 'Oh my god, this restaurant has *terroir.'* The Devetak family reminded me why we all do what we do in the world of restaurants, winemakers, sommeliers and writers. After six generations of hospitality, Lokanda Devetak is the height of locavore culinary tradition. The meals I enjoyed there were among the best of my life." > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DOtY2T2DS7J/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DOtY2T2DS7J/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7vMfI%5FtYyW/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7vMfI%5FtYyW/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DOotKVEj9Ca/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DOotKVEj9Ca/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) A visit to Lokanda Devetak in San Michele del Carso—in northeast Italy not far from the Slovenian border—is highly recommended. [www.devetak.com](http://www.devetak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Follow Lokanda Devetak on Instagram: [@lokandadevetak](https://www.instagram.com/lokandadevetak/?ref=mododibere.com) **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript ## Slovenian in Italy: A 500-Year-Old Question — 0:00 AD: Perché noi parliamo lo sloveno in Italia? TD TRANSLATES: Why are we talking Slovenian in Italy? For 500 years, till 1917, this region was under the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Under this empire, we were talking in Slovenian, German, Friulano, and also Italian language. ## Welcome to Lokanda Devetak — 0:29 RTB: Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. ## A Restaurant Run by One Family for Six Generations — 1:01 Today I'm at my new favorite restaurant, Lokanda Devetak, with Tatjana and Avguštin from the family, who I understand have been running this restaurant for six generations. TD: Yes. RTB: Oh, amazing. I arrived last night after being told by everyone in this region that I needed to visit, but I didn't do a big research before arriving. I was just welcomed to this amazing house, which is like a living museum, but not a museum in the sense that things don't happen anymore. I feel actually now that I know the story of your great-great-great-grandfather fixing the shoes that I'm still welcomed into your family home. It's a wonderful atmosphere. The place is so beautiful. I had just really one of the best meals ever in my life — not just for the amazing quality of the foods that are, I know, grown by your sister, prepared by your mother, served to us by everyone. But also an amazing experience with Avguštin choosing for us a glass of wine with each of our courses. Wonderful wines — some I knew, but some, Skerk, for instance, I hadn't had. Oh, just really, really lovely wines. And then Tatjana took us into the cellar. I stayed in the beautiful room, and now we're here talking, sharing, and it's just the kind of things I'm interested in. ## Meet the Devetak Family — 2:16 So it's a really incredible place, and I hope everyone comes to visit. Please tell me more about the family today, who is working here together. TD: In these days, we are my parents and my three sisters. My older sister runs a farm that provides us with vegetables, fruits, jams, and so on. The other three sisters working together here in the restaurant — one is in the kitchen, one is in the sala, servizio, and I help my sister in the rooms. And also I work in the back office. RTB: Nice. What are everybody's names? TD: Avguštin. RTB: Sì. TD: Tatjana. RTB: Sì. TD: Sara, the older sister. Tjaša. Mihaela. My mom is Gabriella. RTB: So I just met Gabriella just now. I came down for breakfast in this beautiful old-fashioned room and ate a frittata with herbs that was so good, and beautiful cheese, beautiful yogurt. And I smelled the chicken stock coming from the kitchen. TD: Anyway, I think the frittata made from — him. RTB: Ah! Avguštin. TD: Yeah. RTB: Okay. Okay. It was delicious. So I smelled this beautiful smell. Gabriella emerged from the kitchen and brought me in to show me all the chicken stock and the bread dough. And, you know, my life is really local farm products, so this place excites me very much. ## Discovering Wine at Age Three — 3:34 So six generations, Lokanda Devetak — this interest in the regional wine here and the amazing cellar is probably why so many people recommended that I come and visit. So I wonder, Avguštin, is this a special interest of yours, or has wine and the wines of the territory always been a part of the story? AD: La passione del vino è arrivata negli anni.... TD TRANSLATES: So yeah, if you visit the cellar owner, Joško Gravner, he was there about three hours talking about wine. And then at the end, he didn't drink any wine. Gravner said, you are not ready for my wine. First of all, learn, learn, study, study, and then we'll be ready. And from that was the starting of curiosity, of love for the wine. He started to start with every cellar in Venezia Giulia and, make some courses and, yes. ## Who Is Josko Gravner? — 4:47 RTB: So I recognize this name, and I really like this story. But for our listeners briefly, could you explain who is Gravner? AD: Joško Gravner è... TD TRANSLATES: Basically is one of the most, one producers in Friuli-Venezia Giulia, but he's still a farmer because he is the best for the natural wines. The first that, takes barrique here and the first that has, canceled it, eliminated. He started with the maceration of the grapes. He started also to take amphora here in our region. And he is, very is, for natural wines, natural producers...And this, person that knows how, what does it mean, work in vineyards. It's the, the best in of the wine producers. It's, for a lot of people is the guru of the winemaker. ## The Man Behind the Orange Wine Movement — 6:12 RTB: Is he the origin, do you think, of the new orange wine movement around the world? AD: Sì, lui, e con lui, Stanko Radikon... TD TRANSLATES: Yes. Joško Gravner, Valter Mlečnik, Stanko Radikon, Castellada — Bensa. Who was the first that you start to work with maceration, and then this orange movement moved to the world. And he said also one thing — that every big restaurant in the world has almost one bottle of Gravner. It's a cantina. RTB: Yes. I remember in my life working in Italian wine. I worked at a wine shop run by a man from Sardegna with kind of like this place — big, beautiful furniture, old, you know, nice rug, just nice old surroundings. And there was a wooden case in the middle of the room with all the most exciting bottles. And right in the middle was Gravner. \[laughter\] So Modo di Bere is about wine and about language. Also other drinks, but mostly wine, mostly Italy. But it's also about the story that language can tell about a territory just like wine. And when we started, I was speaking as if I'm speaking to Italians, because that's mostly what I do. ## A Correction: "We Are Slovenian" — 7:01 And Avguštin said, no, we are of the Slovenian mother tongue. And there's a distinction there that I want to talk more about. So please tell me about being Slovenian speakers here in this place. ## Orange Wine Producers of Oslavia and the Carso — 7:58 AD: Primo, di tutto — primo parlavamo del vino — TD TRANSLATES: We were talking about the producers in Collio that start with the orange wines — Gravner, Radikon, Castellada. Then he mentioned also Primosic, Prinčič, Il Carpino, Sosol, Fiegl — that are producers in Oslavia of this orange wine that are all Slovenian, like we are, so we know that live in Italy. But he said we cannot forget also Carso region — also here we have a lot of mostly producers of wine are Slovenian that are: Zidarich, Benjamin, Sandi Skerk, Matej Skerlj, Rado Kocjančič, Vodopivec, also, yeah, Kante, that are, all of those who are producers are also Slovenian, and they are, in Brda, like in Carso, it's the same. This is why he — he then said this is the red line, because also they are Slovenian. We are here in the region — it's on the border. AD: Perché noi parliamo lo sloveno in Italia? ## Slovenian in Italy: A Border History — 9:00 TD TRANSLATES: Why we are talking Slovenian in Italy? For 500 years, till 1917, this region was under the Austro-Hungarian empire. Under this empire, we were talking in Slovenian, German, Friulano, and also Italian language. Then in 1917, Italy comes here, occupied us. We say it always like that. And then we have to speak just in Italian. It was an ordine \[order\] — we cannot choose what language can we talk. Even if we were Slovenian, we have to speak just in Italian. But we live here before Italy comes. And we are very proud to be Slovenian. In 1945, there was this fascism that we cannot talk in our native language. After this year, then slowly things changed. And now we have our — our defenses, and we can have our language, our community, and our stuff. Today Mattarella is the Italian president. And before, there's not anymore Pahor president. But then we will receive laurea ad honorem for all the work that they do in these years to put together these two realities, Slovenian and Italian. All these things of putting together two communities started in 2016, after 100 years of the First World War. We — in Doberdò have a great monument for all the Slovenian soldiers that fight — one for the Italians, one for the Slovenian — and came the two presidents. This time was Mattarella and Pahor. And at the end of this inauguration, they come here and have lunch, and was the first event of this — ## Reconciliation: Italy and Slovenia in 2016 — 10:41 RTB: Reconciliation. TD: Yes, yes. ## What is the Carso (or Karst)? — 10:44 RTB: What is this Karst? Is it a place, a town, a rock, a region? What is the Karst? ## WWI Trenches and Italian Wine — 11:30 TD: Carso is a geographical place. It's not a town. It's a kind of region, but it's between Italy and Slovenia. Once was together. Now it's the border, but the border is not anymore. It's mostly rock. Just 20 centimeters of earth, and then it's just rock. It's a lot of caves. The water fall down, and don't remain up. Because of the First World War. And also because of the Cold War. Yeah. It's destroyed because it's a lot of caves that are natural, but also excavated from the soldiers, and also trincee — RTB: Trenches. RD: Yeah. Where the soldiers \[gestures\] are down and \[gestures like a soldier\]. And also, another thing, in Karst, we have — AD: Biodiversity. TD: Much as biodiversity, as in old Germany. So it's very, very particular, very beautiful. We love that. ## Digging a Wine Cellar Out of Solid Rock — 12:30 RTB: So speaking of the deep rocks, I have to ask you to describe the cantina here, because you told me that your grandfather carved all the bricks by hand, and I find that just hard to imagine. It's amazing. TD: In 1994, my father and my mother decided to make this cellar, wine cellar, because they went around in Italy, in Friuli, to see other places, other restaurants. They had this idea to make this cellar. And people here around said, are you crazy? Do you know what that means, to scavare? RTB: To excavate. TD: To excavate in Karst — it's just a rock. It costs so much. Who will come here to see these things? You are crazy. \[RTB raises her hand, laughs\] TD: And they decided to go —. RTB: To go ahead. TD: To go ahead. And for months, they excavated this thing. All the stones was taken away, in another place. And then here, my grandfather, for three months, have made this stone regular, to — and then they put it, like you see, the arch. AD: Dovrebbe essere più piccola — TD: Has to be smaller. But then, when they excavated, they found a — trincee — RTB: A trench TD: trench of the First World War. So they have more space, and they go. RTB: I just have to say that story, and being there, it's unbelievable. It was really an experience. So to answer the question of your neighbors, of your grandparents — who will come to see this? — I will come to see it. And I will feel very moved. \[music\] ## The Shoemaker Who Started It All — 13:30 TD: Where we are here is just the oldest part of the house, here in this corner. When you see the shoemaker lab, it's the original place where all started, because my grand-grand-grandfather was a shoemaker. He prepared the shoes, and then his wife said, "Do you want a glass of wine? Do you want some soup?" And then started to, when the people waiting for the shoes, my grand-grand-grandmother gave them something to eat. ## Growing Up in a Living Museum — 14:30 RTB: What about the rest of the house? And what was it like to grow up in this museum? ## 1870: The House That Became a Restaurant — 14:34 TD: In 1870, when it all started, it was just a little house with the roof in paglia. RTB: Paglia? TD: Paglia, it's, ah, horses eat. RTB: Yeah. Hay! TD: The roof was like that. Then the years slowly, slowly, they enlarged this house. In 1915, so about 40 years later, they have to go away from this house because here was the First World War. All the population of the village has to go in Austria, because the population was evacuated in a safe place. RTB: Sì. TD: When they returned in 1918, the house — all the village was destroyed. So all of our population has to rebuild the house, all the houses. So they have to start again. When they returned in 1918, they found another country. My grand-grand-grandmother was a stranger in \[her\] own home, because \[she\] has to talk in Italian and pay in lira. And when she —go in the '15, she was talk in German and Slovenian, and pay in corona. So it was a shock for all the people here. Then, slowly, they start all, their lives. Very very slowly. And it was a typical trattoria. In the 1960s, arrives the water, arrives the, elettricità, asfalto — very, very late here. \[laughter\] And then people come to start to come from the other villages. My grandfather was a farmer, so he was all the day in the woods, in the camp \[fields\]. And they went — in the evening, he was here with the people of the village. When my father grew up, he takes this place, and started slowly to enlarge. \[music\] RTB: I don't want to take too much more of your time, because I can see what a big work it is for you every day, and you have to go serve lunch. But for me it's such a big world of language. I can't possibly learn them all, so my entrance, my door is the sayings. I can see that you speak so many languages. All of you, beautifully. But I wonder what sayings we can share in Slovenian or another language. ## A Slovenian Saying — 16:54 AD: \[unclear\] Si vive in presente per pensare al futuro, ma guardando le origini del passato. TD TRANSLATES: We live in the present to look in the future. But not to forget the past. AD: Grazie, hvala, grazie, thank you, danke. ## Outro — 18:03 RTB: \[delighted chuckle\] Thank you so much. It's Lokanda Devetak. I'm going to put the links to how you can find out about this place in the notes for the show, devetak.com. You have to check it out. Come and make a visit to this region, from everything you learn from this program and from the YouTube episode about the wine. But when you come to this part of the world, you have to stay here. I say. Wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Support us on Patreon. *\[NOTE: We are no longer using Patreon! Become a member* [*right here*](https://www.mododibere.com/#/portal/) *to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\]* Grab the newsletter. At mododibere.com and subscribe to the YouTube channel at Modo di Bere to watch the travel show, Modo di Bere TV. Music for the show was composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou. Purchase their music at the link in the notes. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/devetak-family-format-original-1-1.jpg) The Family of Lokanda Devetak Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ The Friulano Language ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e3-william-cisilino-friulano/) [ Raw Shrimp in Venice ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/rs4e1-trailer-raw-shrimp-in-venice/) ### ▷S4E1 Raw Shrimp in Venice URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/rs4e1-trailer-raw-shrimp-in-venice/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T22:40:02.000Z Rose Thomas Bannister, who was just honored as one of Wine Enthusiast Magazine's 2025 Future Forty tastemakers, reads "Raw Shrimp in Venice," the second part of her travel story about her first trip to Venice. A pretty but lonely afternoon gives way to a seafood adventure and a midnight boat ride around the lagoon with new friends made through the magic of local slang and Select spritz. Check out the [profile about Rose Thomas in Wine Enthusiast magazine](https://www.wineenthusiast.com/future-40/?srsltid=AfmBOopSkY6rxliAWF%5F4WlfnD2Hxfdghz1m8iQn6FLcsSIwg76ZwgENT&ref=mododibere.com), who honored her writing, media and wine education work by naming her one of wine’s top tastemakers in 2025\. This essay was published in [Modo di Bere Magazine](https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/eating-raw-shrimp-in-venice/) as part of RT’s column “The Way I Travel.” Read Part 1 of this Venice story, “[Water Rots the Boat Poles](https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/water-rots-the-boat-poles/),” which was also read on the podcast for [Season 2 Episode 12](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e12-venice-spritz-magic/). View Transcript Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. Today I get to announce something very special. The work that I've done here learning about local culture through drinks and dialect has just been recognized in a big way: Wine Enthusiast Magazine just announced this year's Future Forty, a list of tastemakers to watch in the wine world, and I'm on the list! Look up Wine Enthusiast Future Forty to read the feature that's coming out online today and check out all forty of these talented people that you need to know about in wine. I'll also include a link to the article in the show notes. As I share this news, I want to say thank you to every one of you for listening and supporting my work about wine and language over the years. To the listeners here on the Modo di Bere podcast, our friends over on Instagram and TikTok, and everyone who's read the essays we've published for Modo di Bere Magazine and the Modo di Bere newsletter, and especially to all our supporters on Patreon: thank you! \[NOTE: **We are no longer using Patreon!** Become a member [right here](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e14-tazzelenghe-the-tongue-cutter/#/portal/) to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\] If you'd like to learn more about my work connecting biodiversity and linguistic diversity in a fun educational media project about drinks, you can sign up for my newsletter at www.mododibere.com, where you can also watch the trailer for my upcoming travel show, Modo di Bere TV. I'm really grateful to everyone that I've interviewed for the podcast and for Modo di Bere TV. I'm obsessed with stories of people who go to extreme lengths to preserve endangered languages and winemaking techniques. It's been a huge honor to work on sharing these stories with the world. I'm really happy to see the project getting recognized so that more people can hear about all of these fascinating souls I've met in the course of my travels! And that brings me to today's episode, which is part two of the travel story I shared in Season 2, Episode 12, about the people I met and the drinks I drank on my first visit to Venice. Check out that episode, Venetian Spritz Magic—to hear about getting lost, getting the courage to order a spritz at what I thought was the wrong time of day, and making friends with speakers of the Venetian language. The same piece was also published at mododibere.com/magazine under the title "Water Rots the Boat Poles." Today's story is called Raw Shrimp in Venice. Modo di Bere is a listener supported Podcast. I've have some updates to the Patreon model, so make sure and check that out, right now if you want, at patreon.com/mododibere. Raw Shrimp in Venice will be here when you get back. \[NOTE: **We are no longer using Patreon!** Become a member [right here](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e14-tazzelenghe-the-tongue-cutter/#/portal/) to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\] Venice Part 2 I pretended that I wanted to be alone, and it wasn't working. I'd managed to find the Cannaregio neighborhood mostly by feel after a get-lost-on purpose walk, which is is how I'd been convinced to spend my first day in Venice. It had been good, to be alone with my thoughts, as I drifted over tiny bridges, through twisting narrow streets, past walls dotted with tumbling plants with faces carved into the stones. I wouldn't have been half as dazzled if I'd been listening to some companion talk instead of noticing the acoustical changes rendered to a European townscape when the streets are made of water. Every bird chirp and echo had artful shadow. It was off-season, April, and the people I passed live in Venice. Kids in school uniforms bouncing balls. Old people with canes clacking on the cobblestones. Women discussing how to tactfully un-double-book their vacation rental. Deliverymen maneuvering ingenious carts designed to be cantilevered up and down the endless stairs. For every tourist gondola there were five everyday motor boats filled with city residents, dogs and the odd refrigerator. I was transformationally charmed and retroactively incredulous of anyone who'd ever complained about Venice. Looking back, I couldn't actually remember anyone trashing Venice itself, only lamenting that too many people want to enjoy it, a situation that creates an un-Italian possibility of bad restaurants. But the restaurants I was noting through iPhone photographs for the many return trips I knew I'd be making to this place were almost painfully enticing, with daily menus written in brown paper that included Venetian spellings that omitted the "l" among vowels. After my sound walk, I enjoyed the frisson of boarding the Vaporetto, a Venetian water bus, with zero understanding of where it was bound. I could be on the last bus of the day headed to an outer island with no way to get back, and that was the adventure I committed to when I finally figured out how to pay and enter the boat. But it only took me up and down the Grand Canal. Only the Grand Canal. The flapping tails of the Venetian flag, shaped like no other flag I'd ever seen, saluted me from the facades of every historic palazzo from the movies. I had dreams about Venice before I'd ever been, that I was laughing in a boat with all my Italian friends, who were all wearing fabulous clothes. It wasn't a vanity dream. It was a hit of pure and radical pleasure, the kind that might make you explode like Monty Python's Mr Creosote's wafer-thin mint. The Vaporetto wasn't exactly like the boat in my dream, but I grew up in Nebraska and didn't see the open ocean until I was sixteen. Boats and saltwater and seafood make me feel like a little kid excited to see a firetruck. If I'd had a companion, I might have been too distracted to feel the delicious danger all the way down to my toes. I got off the boat and ambled up and to the left, also known as northwest, and was thrilled to locate the Cannaregio sestiere—I'd just learned that word, like "quarter" except that Venice has six districts. The wine bar I'd been told to visit spends all night explaining that they don't serve any spritzes, even though this fact is also clearly printed on a large sign by the counter. As the sun started to set, I sat down in a boat where you're allowed to drink wine in plastic cups. I made the dramatic decision that I wouldn't try to talk to anyone. I'd continue to be alone, to observe humanity, like a writer. The truth is that I was feeling shy. I'd been in Italy for two weeks doing wine things with wine people. No matter how many of them were strangers, I could walk up to anyone and ask what they did in wine. On the final day, faced with actual strangers, I resolved to remain stylishly aloof. I lasted about thirty seconds before I twisted around and made friends with the couple on the bench behind me, using my failsafe method of asking someone about their local dialect. Sarah had dark hair and an impish sense of humor, Fabio had sandy hair and a friendly face. They lived outside of the city and had come in to make a day trip. Fabio asked me, "Have you had a Select Spritz?" "No," I said, "But I ordered an Aperol Spritz for lunch, even though I know that's too early for a spritz." "Aha!" said Fabio. "But in Venice, we drink Spritz all day! And not with Aperol, with Select!" He paused and looked at me seriously: "Never more than five." I liked this new spritz rule a lot. Fabio had an early morning at work the next day and they were supposed to head home, but clearly they had to take me out for my first Select spritz instead. So Fabio and Sarah came with me to dinner at Casa Bonita, the restaurant my pal Narciso from the hotel had recommended when I said I wanted to try moeche, a rare soft shell crab found only in Venice. I'd been told to try them by the by the wine writer Filippo Magnani. We ordered a giant plate of seafood. The tiny crabs were battered and fried golden, an extremely excellent bite out of many on the huge platter before us. "Sarah, I see they use two words in Italian for shrimp, 'Gambero' and 'Scampi." What's the difference? Are they different animals?" To indicate that the two prawns move differently, Sarah wiggled her fingers like shrimp legs, moving her hand forward or backward. "Gambero," she said, and moved the imaginary shrimp backward. "Doodle doodle doo!" "Scampo!" Wiggling the shrimp legs forward. "Deedle deedle dee!" Fabio joined in the "deedle deedle dees," deeper for the Gambero and higher pitched for the Scampo, as Sarah repeated the leg movements of the various prawns several more times. But now it was time to eat the raw shrimp. As a teenager in Nebraska, I got called weird when I wanted to eat at the new sushi place that opened up in town. Now I've eaten many oysters, many an Italian raw fish "crudo," and even some raw horse meat in Verona, but I still felt a little challenged when I saw a raw shrimp on the platter. Most of the raw shrimps I'd handled in my life were thawed from a freezer bag, gray and a little slimy. I explained in Italian that I think Americans might find raw shrimp to be a little much. "Why?!" said Sarah, in shocked incomprehension. "It is the flavor of the sea!" Well, I had to try the shrimp now. Sarah was right. It was the flavor of the sea. From this moment on, I said yes to every raw shrimp that has come my way, and these have accounted for several of my life's list of most sublime bites. By this point, I thought I had had the perfect day. But then Fabio and Sarah called their friend who has a boat, and he picked us up in the canal and took us for a boat ride in the lagoon! The vaporetto was one thing, but I had never expected to go on a boat ride my first day in Venice! Everyone knows the gondolas are too expensive. But here we were in a little wooden motorboat, zooming around the dark flat water, looking at all the lights! Fabio was astonished at my good luck. "Rose!" He said in awe. "Your first time…in Venice…..and you go….by a BOAT!" He was crying. The thing that moves me most about Italian people is how much they truly love to see other people enjoy themselves. And I truly was, enjoying myself, so much. I wiped a way a tear myself, then we docked the boat at a tiny, supremely local bar where the only drink is a Select spritz, glowing in the fluorescent light. Select is stronger than Aperol but less bitter than Campari, garnished with an olive as well as an orange. It is the perfect drink. The bar tender plucked each each ice cube from the ice bucket on the counter and served me another one. There was a single old man inside, drinking a spritz. We went outside, where the young men were singing rowdy drinking songs. Fabio and Sarah continued my education of local sayings. "Gorna," Sarah over-pronounced, dramatically indicating the drain pipe running down the wall outside the bar door. "When you drink, too much, you are like a gorna!" When I had drunk the exactly perfect amount of Venetian Spritz, Fabio and Sarah walked me back to my hotel. I realized that if I had dined alone I would have wandered the streets forever, truly lost. Instead Fabio and Sarah delivered me right to the gates of the Hotel Ca Nigra, where we parted as bitterly as old friends. The next morning I continued living large and took a water taxi, a sort of fancy motorboat, from my hotel to airport. Venice zoomed away behind me as the boat sped up and water droplets sprayed on my face. I felt like an absolute queen. I asked the driver to teach me a local saying. "Ti se sta bateza con acqua dei polpi" he said. "It's what you say when someone is being stupid. It means 'I think you were baptized in squid water." I laughed, then he asked me if I had tried the Select Spritz. "Yes!" I said. "It is the most delicious spritz ever!" "Brava!" He declared. "How many did you have?" "Cinque!" The water taxi driver responded with thundering approval. Here are my recommendations for Venice. The first three go for anywhere. Learn some local slang. Eat the raw shrimp. Make friends with somebody who owns a boat. And blow every last cent of your money on a water taxi at least once. They'll feed you on the plane. Thank you for listening to my tale. This piece was published in Modo di Bere magazine as part of my column, The Way I Travel. You can read this and other personal essays and articles about drinks and dialect at mododibere.com/magazine. A new season of this podcast will be released this fall, so make sure you sign up for the newsletter while you're at my website so that you don't miss any good news. To all of my listeners, today, a special thank you. Wherever you go, whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/fabio-and-sara-format-original-1.jpg) Fabio and Sara Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Lokanda Devetak ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e2-lokanda-devetak/) [ Ou's Album "Uranio" ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e13-ou-uranio/) ### Eating Raw Shrimp in Venice URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/eating-raw-shrimp-in-venice/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T22:19:37.000Z *Read part one of this travel story,* [*“Water Rots the Boat Poles.”*](https://www.mododibere.com/water-rots-the-boat-poles/) *Listen to the author read this essay aloud on* [*Season 4, Episode 1* ](https://www.mododibere.com/content/files/2026/08/raw-shrimp-in-venice.html)*of the Modo di Bere Podcast.* --- I pretended that I wanted to be alone, and it wasn’t working. I’d managed to find the Cannaregio neighborhood mostly by feel after a get-lost-on purpose walk, which is how I’d been convinced to spend my first day in Venice. It *had* been good, to be alone with my thoughts, as I drifted over tiny bridges, through twisting narrow streets, past walls dotted with tumbling plants and faces carved into the stones. I wouldn’t have been half as dazzled if I’d been listening to some companion talk instead of noticing the acoustical changes rendered to a townscape when the streets are made of water. Every bird chirp and echo had artful shadow. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Reflections-in-a-Venetian-shop-window--2022.jpg) **Reflections in Venetian shop window* It was off-season, April, and the people I passed live in Venice. Kids in school uniforms bouncing balls. Old people with canes clacking on the cobblestones. Women discussing how to tactfully un-double-book their vacation rental. Deliverymen maneuvering ingenious carts up and down the endless stairs. For every tourist gondola there were five everyday motor boats filled with city residents, dogs and the odd refrigerator. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Faces-in-the-stone--Venice.jpg) **Faces in the stone* I was transformationally charmed and retroactively incredulous of anyone who’d ever complained about Venice. Looking back, I couldn’t actually remember anyone trashing Venice itself, only lamenting that too many people want to enjoy it, a situation that creates an un-Italian possibility of bad restaurants. But the restaurants I was, noting through iPhone photographs, for the many return trips I knew I’d be making to this place were almost painfully enticing, with daily menus written in brown paper that included Venetian spellings that omitted the “l” among vowels. After my sound walk, I enjoyed the frisson of boarding the vaporetto, a Venetian water bus, with zero understanding of where it was bound. I could be on the last bus of the day headed to an outer island with no way to get back. That was the adventure I committed to when I finally figured out how to pay and enter the boat. But it only took me up and down the Grand Canal. *Only the Grand Canal.* The flapping tails of the Venetian flag, shaped like no other flag I’d ever seen, saluted me from the facades of every historic palazzo. I had dreams about Venice before I’d ever been, that I was laughing in a boat with all my Italian friends, who were all wearing fabulous clothes. It wasn’t a vanity dream. It was a hit of pure and radical pleasure, the kind that might make you explode like Monty Python’s Mr Creosote’s thin mint. The vaporetto wasn’t exactly like the boat in my dream, but I grew up in Nebraska and didn’t see the open ocean until I was sixteen. Boats and saltwater and seafood make me feel like a little kid excited to see a firetruck. If I’d had a companion, I might have been too distracted to feel the delicious danger all the way down to my toes. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Venetian-Flag.jpg) **Venetian flag* I got off the boat and ambled up and to the left, also known as northwest, and was thrilled to locate the Cannaregio sestiere. I’d just learned that word, like “quarter,” except that Venice has six districts. The wine bar I’d been told to visit spends all night explaining that they don’t serve any spritzes, even though this fact is also clearly printed on a large sign by the counter. As the sun started to set, I sat down in a boat where you’re allowed to drink wine in plastic cups. I made the dramatic decision that I wouldn’t try to talk to anyone. I’d continue to be alone, to *observe* humanity, like a writer. The truth is that I was feeling shy. I’d been in Italy for two weeks doing wine things with wine people. No matter how many of them were strangers, I could walk up to anyone and ask what they did in wine. On the final day, faced with actual strangers, I resolved to remain stylishly aloof. I lasted about thirty seconds before I twisted around and made friends with the couple on the bench behind me, using my failsafe method of asking someone about their local dialect. Sara had dark hair and an impish sense of humor, Fabio had brown eyes and a friendly face. They lived outside of the city and had come in to make a day trip. Fabio asked me, “Have you had a Select Spritz?” “No,” I said, “But I ordered an Aperol Spritz for lunch, even though I know that’s too early for a spritz.” “Aha!” said Fabio. “But in Venice, we drink Spritz all day! And not with Aperol, with Select!” He paused and looked at me seriously: “Never more than five.” ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Fabio-and-Sara.jpg) **Fabio and Sara* I liked this new spritz rule a lot. Fabio had an early morning at work the next day and they were supposed to head home, but clearly they had to take me out for my first Select spritz instead. So Fabio and Sara came with me to dinner at Casa Bonita, the restaurant my pal Narciso from the hotel had recommended when I said I wanted to try moeche, a rare soft shell crab found only in Venice. I’d been told to try them by the wine writer Filippo Magnani, who made them sound so rare I felt like I was eating an endangered penguin. We ordered a giant plate of seafood. The tiny crabs were battered and fried golden. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Moeche.jpg) **The “proper” name is “moleche,” but I’m spelling it the way Venetians spell (and pronounce) it: moeche, leaving out the “l”* “Sara, I see they use two words in Italian for shrimp, ‘Gambero’ and ’Scampi.” What’s the difference? Are they different animals?” To indicate that the two prawns move differently, Sara wiggled her fingers like shrimp legs, moving her hand forward or backward. “Gambero,” she said, and moved the imaginary shrimp backward. “Doodle doodle doo!” “Scampo!” Wiggling the shrimp legs forward. “Deedle deedle dee!” Fabio joined in the “deedle deedle dees,” deeper for the Gambero and higher pitched for the Scampo, as Sara repeated the leg movements of the prawns several more times. But now it was time to eat the raw shrimp. As a teenager in Nebraska, I got called weird when I wanted to eat at the new sushi place that opened up in town. Now I’ve eaten many oysters, many an Italian raw fish “crudo,” and even some raw horse meat in Verona, but I still felt a little challenged when I saw a raw shrimp on the platter. Most of the raw shrimps I’d handled in my life were thawed from a freezer bag, gray and a little slimy. I explained in Italian that I think Americans might find raw shrimp to be a little much. “Why?!” said Sara, in shocked incomprehension. “It is the flavor of the sea!” Well, I had to try the shrimp now. Sara was right. It *was* the flavor of the sea. From that moment on, I’ve said yes to every raw shrimp that has come my way, and these have accounted for several of my life’s most sublime bites. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Raw-Shrimp.jpg) **Seafood platter at* [**Casa Bonita* ](https://casabonita.it/?ref=mododibere.com)**restaurant in Venice* By this point, I thought I had had the perfect day. But then Fabio and Sara called their friend who has a boat, and he picked us up in the canal and took us for a boat ride in the lagoon! The vaporetto was one thing, but I had never expected to go on a boat ride my first day in Venice! Everyone knows the gondolas are too expensive. But here we were in a little wooden motorboat, zooming around the dark flat water, looking at all the lights! Fabio was astonished at my good luck. “Rose!” He said in awe. “Your first time…in Venice…..and you go….by a BOAT!” He was crying. The thing that moves me most about Italian people is how much they love to see other people enjoy themselves. And I truly was, enjoying myself, so much. I wiped away a tear myself, then we docked the boat at a tiny, supremely local bar where the only drink is a Select spritz, glowing in the fluorescent light. Select is stronger than Aperol but less bitter than Campari, garnished with an olive as well as an orange. It is the perfect drink. The bartender plucked each ice cube from the ice bucket on the counter and served me another spritz. The old man inside was drinking a spritz. The young men outside were singing rowdy drinking songs. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Sara-at-Venetian-Bar.jpg) **Sara at Venetian bar, everyone drinking Select Spritz* Fabio and Sara continued my education of local sayings. “Gorna,” Sara over-pronounced, dramatically indicating the drain pipe running down the wall outside the bar door. “When you drink, too much, you are like a *gorna*!” When I had drunk the exactly perfect amount of Venetian Spritz, Fabio and Sara walked me back to my hotel. I realized that if I had dined alone I would have wandered the streets forever, truly lost. Instead Fabio and Sara delivered me right to the gates of the [Hotel Ca’ Nigra](https://www.hotelcanigra.com/?ref=mododibere.com), where we parted as bitterly as old friends. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Vaporetto.jpeg) **Vaporetto passing under bridge, Venice* The next morning I continued living large and took a water taxi, a sort of fancy motorboat, from my hotel to the airport. Venice zoomed away behind me as the boat sped up and water droplets sprayed on my face. I felt like an absolute queen. I asked the driver to teach me a local saying. “Ti se sta bateza con acqua dei polpi,” he said. “It’s what you say when someone is being stupid. It means ‘You were baptized in squid water.” I laughed, then he asked me if I had tried the Select Spritz. “Yes!” I said. “It is the most delicious spritz ever!” “Brava!” He declared. “How many did you have?” “Cinque!” The water taxi driver responded with thundering approval. Here are my recommendations for Venice. The first three go for anywhere. Learn some local slang. Eat the raw shrimp. Make friends with somebody who owns a boat. And blow every last cent of your money on a water taxi at least once. They’ll feed you on the plane. --- *Images courtesy of the author* ### Sweet Wine: Drink What You Want. URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/sweet-wine-drink-what-you-want/ Last updated: 2026-08-21T05:05:14.000Z Back then, like many new drinkers, I didn’t know that wine could have a “reputation.” In my early 20s, I was somehow more sure about lemon drops and Jagermeister. Wine was its own thing. Wine was something you had in church, people’s homes, or restaurants, if you were rich. My second job out of college was writing and editing at a small newspaper service. My boss was like an elderly version of Peggy Olson from “Mad Men.” Every so often, after we put an issue to bed, she would summon our tiny team into her office for what she called “Fireside Chats,” during which she’d chain smoke slim cigarettes and dispense advice over bottles of cheap, sweet, bubbly wine. “No dead soldiers!” was her rule, meaning no one could leave the boss' office while a bottle was open. As a result, I showed up to work with a raging hangover once a month for nearly 2 years. Sweet wine became synonymous with sharp-eyed old ladies with a thing for F.D.R. references – and something I avoided for the next 15 years. > “Back then, like many new drinkers, I didn’t know that wine could have a ‘reputation.’ ” I changed jobs a few times before I landed a position researching and writing about food for a culinary school. I was suddenly surrounded by chefs, sommeliers, foods and wines from every corner of the globe. Restaurants had become part of my life. I enrolled in the school’s wine program. One Christmas, a few colleagues and I decided to celebrate a few weeks early. One of my classmates, a pastry chef who also worked at the school, made baked Alaska. Another nicked foie gras from the culinary student kitchens upstairs. Six of us pooled our money to buy a small bottle of Chateau d’Yquem, one the most prized wines in the world. We had just learned about d’Yquem, a sweet wine producer from the region of Sauternes whose prestige dates back hundreds of years. Thomas Jefferson was a fan, having imported barrels direct from the winery in the early 1800s. The bottle, just 375ml, was outrageously expensive. Time seemed to slow as my friends poured the bright golden liquid into glasses. Would this wine live up to its hype? Would I like it? We toasted our good health and tipped our drinks back. I was immediately seduced by aromas so decadent they felt like a sin. Honey, ripe pear, lychee, quince, ginger, a touch of clove. The wine didn’t so much coat my palate as enrobe it. It was smooth and soft, sweet, but somehow still savory, mouthwatering, mysterious. To call it magic would be an understatement of shameful proportions. It was epic. Biblical, even. This wine didn’t just change my opinion on sweet wine. It changed me. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Chateau-d-Yquem-by-Ben-Kerckx.jpeg) Image by Ben Kerckx (Pixabay) > “This wine didn’t just change my opinion on sweet wine. It changed me. ” Now a decade into my wine career, I remember my Chateau d’Yquem experience as the one that helped me to really understand what is so special about wine. I know now that the production of sweet wine dates back to ancient civilizations. It was the wine of kings and nobility, stolen as spoils of war, traded across empires for hundreds of years. Yet, at some point, ideas shifted. Sweet wine developed a bad reputation in the world of fine wine, as if it went out and got too drunk at some fancy cocktail party Saturday night and set all the hoity toity folks gossiping. What happened? Well, it depends on who you ask. Not everyone looks down on sweet wine. In fact, sweeter wines are quite popular around the world. To demystify the misperceptions around sweet wines is what this series is all about. When guests come into the shop where I work now looking for sweet wines, it usually goes one of three ways: “I’m looking for a wine to go with pasta, but nothing too *sweet*.” Or, “My \[friend, mom, girlfriend\] likes sweet wines. Not me though, *ew*,” accompanied by a nervous laugh. Or, “I’m looking for something sweet, I know it probably sounds silly to you.” “Not at all, drink what you want,” I say to that guest, offering the very first lesson I learned in wine school as reassurance. Scott Carney, Master Sommelier, said it with a shrug of the shoulders just minutes after my cohort took to our seats at the International Culinary Center. (The I.C.C. has since closed.) I had been excited and terrified to study wine. I grew up in the housing projects of East New York, what the hell did I know — what could I know — about fine wine? The minute Carney spoke, I felt myself relax and breathe normally again. “The first rule of wine study,” he said. “Let people drink what they want. Your job, my job, is to make sure they have a good time.” ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Michele-Thomas-with-Sweet-Wine.jpg) **the author at work with delicious sweet wine* “My job is to make sure you have a good time,” I tell my customers today. I hear them sigh, see their shoulders drop with relief that I’m not judging them for their choices. Drinking sweet wine is okay. Sweet wine is as good as any other wine. Sweet wines are, in fact, delicious. Chateau d’Yquem, anyone? Sweet wines can be made artisanally or mass-produced, carefully or cheaply, just like any other wine. After nearly 10 years in the wine business, I have some ideas about the ways people say “sweet wine,” and what they really mean. Some folks think of sweet wines as syrupy, cloying, cheaply produced and cheaply packaged, in frosted glass with labels just a bit too shiny. It’s the stuff that poor, simple, unsophisticated people drink. When they say, “I don’t want anything *sweet,*” what they often mean is “I have taste. I’m better than them. I’m not like them.” Snobs who look down on sweet wines and those who drink them rob themselves of the magic of discovering something delightful. > “Snobs who look down on sweet wines and those who drink them rob themselves of the magic of discovering something delightful. ” I welcome and encourage customers who like what they like, even if they are sometimes hesitant to ask for it. I do my best to help them find something wonderful to drink, no matter the sugar content. At their best, sweet wines can be as complex and nuanced as the people who enjoy them. To me, sweet wines are worthy of exploration and respect. After all, what is hospitality if everyone’s not welcome at the table? ### ▷S3E6 Uranio: il album senza confini di Ou URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s3e6-ersilia-prosperi-amy-denio-ou-uranio/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T05:21:23.000Z Ou ha un nuovo album, Uranio! Ersilia Prosperi ed Amy Denio, la sua produttrice e compagna di band raccontano la storia del loro ultimo album dinamico e multilingue. La musica per il podcast Modo di Bere Italiano proviene dall'album Pisces Crisis di Ou. Puoi acquistare i primi due album di Ou su [oumusic.bandcamp.com](https://oumusic.bandcamp.com/album/pisces-crisis-2?ref=mododibere.com) e prendere il nuovo album su [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/ersilia-prosperi--281-29-format-original.jpg) Uranio è l'album perfetto per indagare le connessioni tra biodiversità e diversità linguistica. Il titolo deriva dall'uranio proveniente dai giochi di guerra della NATO che sta colpendo le popolazioni selvatiche nella casa ancestrale di Ersilia, la Sardegna. Visita [aforas.noblogs.org](http://aforas.noblogs.org/?ref=mododibere.com) per conoscere questo problema. Per ascoltare la storia di questa band multilingue e ascoltare un po' di musica dai primi due album di Ou, ascolta la nostra prima intervista con Ersilia e Amy, [Stagione 1 Episodio 11](https://www.mododibere.com/ersilia-prosperi-amy-deni-ou/) di questo podcast. Sito web di Ersilia Prosperi: [ersiliaprosperi.com/it](https://www.ersiliaprosperi.com/it/?ref=mododibere.com) Sito web di Amy Denio: [amydenio.me](https://amydenio.me/?ref=mododibere.com) [Ascolta in inglese / Listen in English](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-en/s3e13/ou/uranio) ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/amy-denio-jpeg-format-original.jpg) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)Quindi io credo che il mondo finché lo vediamo, monolingua, monogenere, mononazione, monoculturale, monogastronomico, monoenologico, quindi un solo tipo di... non esiste, è un falso. Italiano. Il podcast subevante ed deti locali. Sono la conduitrice Rose Thomas Bannister. Sono lieta di accogliere di nuovo In questo podcast, Ercilia Prosperi ed Amy Denaio, compositrici e musiciste multilingue, Ercilia con il suo gruppo OU, ha composto la musica per un modo di bere. Amy Denaio suona nel gruppo ed è anche il loro produttrice. Il tema modo di bere e l 'altra musica che ascolti nello show provengono da OU. Ercilia e Amy sono qui oggi per parlare dell 'ultimo album D .O .U, "Uraneo" disponibile da Folderal Records. Ci abbiamo messo un sacco, l 'abbiamo iniziato a registrare nel 2020, quindi è una grande cosa che ce l 'abbiamo fatta a farlo uscire e questo grazie alla nostra amata regina Amy Denaglio. Io ho iniziato a scriverlo quando siamo tornati dagli Stati Uniti nel 2016, quindi è un processo lunghissimo, Quindi è stata una vera e proprio parto di questo uovo nuovo, di questo terzo uovo. È stato molto bello lavorarci tutti insieme, tutta la Corte ha partecipato. La storia del gruppo è cambiata, cioè in questi anni ci sono stati nuovi elementi, ma alla fine ci siamo ricompattati tutti quanti per lavorare a questo disco, perché è un disco che parla di tante cose attuali, che io ci tenevo molto a ritualizzare e a esorcizzare, tra cui tantissime cose che sono successe nel Mediterraneo, in Italia, in Europa, nel mondo e quindi il titolo è "uraneo", diciamo negli ultimi anni ci sono successe svaliate cose e quindi questo disco parla di un sacco di cose anche tragiche e tristi, tipo la chiusura dei porti in Italia, sono morti centinaia e migliaia di persone grazie alle politiche dei confini territoriali europei e questo disco è molto politico e sempre con grande ironia poi con una leggerezza folle e molto anarchoide però vogliamo portare queste temate che diciamo. Pioni che scappano dalle guerre e questo in modo molto ampio e in generale dell 'oppressione che può essere data dalla famiglia, dal paese, dalla nazione o anche in una relazione amorosa. Il tutto è lavorato in salsa o quindi con un touch di esercismo allegro anarco improvvisativo. Quando inizio il lavoro per questo podcast, per fare una connezione tra la biodiversità e diversità linguistica, non sono esperta, esperta e linguistica. No, studiavo più il vino e le cose della biodiversità con il vino, con il vino italiano allora all 'inizio pensavo forse e un 'idea romantica questo connezione tra biodiversità e diversità linguistica dopo un anno e mezzo del lavoro con modo di bere ogni persona che studia linguistica dice che sono connectato secondo voi, che è la connazione tra biodiversità e diversità linguistica. Io penso questo che, sì, più o meno ho capito. Dice che c 'è un biodiversità anche delle lingue. Certo. E che sta borrendo la possibilità per andare avanti le lingue. Io penso questo che fortunatamente ci sono delle popolazioni, spesso sono popolazioni indigene, per esempio Tartaruga in Portoghese proprio perché si ispira a chi difende i territori dagli incendi in Amazoni, incendi legati, per produttività dei territori. Why do you obey this high bondage? Teardudes and lazy beings, stop raping me. You try and cheat, you narcissists, you lie. (singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language) e queste popolazioni indigene sono collegate super connessi con la natura, con il mondo animale, con le piante e con la lingua e i suoni e i suoni e le lingue sono ricche e vaste e varie, sono protette da quelle popolazioni e per questo che secondo me non c 'è pericolo. Cioè va tutto bene, non c 'è niente da lavare, tutto apposto, non c 'è. C 'è un 'emergenza, ma nello stesso tempo io credo che c 'è una profonda reattività, ci sono degli anticorpi potenti. Noi siamo anticorpi, la regina è un anticorpio, io sono un anticorpio, siamo qui che creiamo delle reti profonde come quelle degli alberi sotto terra o i funghi creano un sacco di reti e connessioni e le lingue sono super collegate, nonostante mantengono le loro differenze, sono pieni di connessioni e non è vero che il mondo è diviso, non lo è nellinguisticamente e nebbiologicamente. È un falso, è un grandissimo falso storico il principio dell 'esistenza delle nazioni, le nazioni non esistono, come sì come non esistono i generi, cioè le idee degli esseri umani sono assolutiste e invadenti e spotiche. Ma la verità è che è tutto molto più vasto, connesso e diverso. Però connesso, quindi le lingue si assomigliano tutte. Più uno inizia a giocare con le lingue. Noi giochiamo tanto anche Amy, nei suoi dischies ha sempre giocato con le lingue. Perché le lingue si ass.. cioè si chiamano l 'una con l 'altra, così come i sapori, come i giù e come la natura. E niente, volevo dire questo. Quindi, in realtà io vedo che il mondo finché lo vediamo, mono lingua, mono genere, mono nazione, mono culturale, mono gastronomico, mono enologico, quindi un solo tipo di... non esiste, è un falso, è sbagliato e però sono convinta che c 'è una grandissima quantità di persone positive che lottano per proteggere, difendere e sostenere questa biodiversità e diversità linguistica. Ci siamo, bisogna comunicare questo anche attraverso la musica che non è vero che va tutto arroto lì, cioè noi siamo qua e difendiamo la nostra terra, difendiamo la sardegna, difendiamo la mazzogna, difendiamo dalle pipeline negli Stati Uniti, ci sono lotte dei nativi americani che lottano. Così su tutti i territori ci sono tanti oh, tanti che nascono e difendono questo, il sistema bello e armonioso è complicato, complesso e connesso che abbiamo. L 'altra cosa da pensare è che quando si guarda l 'evoluzione in genere o delle lingue o delle animali o di tutto quanto della cultura è sempre una domanda di improvvisazione. Quelli che possono improvvisare, che possono confrontare le potere malevolente diciamo che possono ballare e reformare, loro sopravvivono e anche come qui io abito sulla risovazione degli indiani, Scallalam si chiamano il tribù Scallalam, qui nel Nord -Ovest Pacifico c 'erano un marè di tribù ognuno diverso e c 'era un tentativo eliminare tutto la lingua e l 'illuminare la cultura da cent 'anni, però adesso loro hanno soprovisuto e devono per forza improvvisare da continuare, come scherzava un mio amico che canta, che conosce molto bene la cultura locale, indigine, dice "allora dobbiamo improvvisare, non possiamo tenere al passato, perché poi si muore, quindi vi imploriamo improvvisare, provostare flessibile, accettare che c 'è sono delle forze che non vanno bene, però ultimamente, come diceva Ersilia, sta tutto con esso, tutto con esso. Questo è bello, proprio bello, come l 'ale di faruale che crea una tempesta in Cina, c 'è una connessione tra tutto. Sì, recentemente ho fatto un 'intervista con un professor di linguaggio friulano. Lui dice che la storia di evoluzione è una storia di diversità. E come esistiamo? È la storia nel passato, nel futuro. Mi ha corpito, in questo momento che ovviamente sono connettato. - Connessa? - Connessa, grazie. Perché il linguaggio è una cosa che fanno gli animali, includendo noi. È il stile che voglio parlare dei animali in uranio. Per favore dimmi la storia delle diverse animali. Allora, c 'è Tartaruga si chiama Tartaruga, la canzone, perché la Tartaruga è d 'ispirazione nella cercare l 'unità e l 'alleanza fra le persone e nell 'avere la perseveranza di continuare a andare avanti, così come le Tartaruga attraversano gli oceani e vanno lontanissimo e poi ritornano. È molto semplice, però è un punto d 'ispirazione per superare questa crisi che poi c 'è nella difficoltà di unirsi, di stare insieme e pensare anche fuori dagli schemi a come si può superare difficoltà. La soluzione è sempre nell 'alleanza e io credo che nella natura c 'è molto questa alleanza e nella perseveranza però. Nel non fermarsi e Tartaruga va, lei si mette nella corrente attraversa l 'oceano. Quindi Tartaruga si chiama per questo così. E il polpo? Il polpo parla della riproduzione femminile e il cannibalismo che talvolta la polpa femmina mangia un pezzetto di polpo maschio che si fa mangiare perché lei non può nutrirsi perché deve proteggere le uova, allora il maschio si sottomette e si fa mangiare un polpo, un tentacolo, non se lo mangia tutto. Però in generale parà della riproduzione femminile, è un pezzo femminista in qualche maniera, cioè dell 'obbligo della riproduzione E di quello che fa la polpa per comunque alla fine portare avanti la sua missione di espandere e mandare centinaia di migliaia di polpi. Tra l 'altro scoperto da poco che ci sono degli allevamenti di polpa, tra l 'altro è un animale intelligentissimo, lo sanno tutti, è strategico anche ed è molto sfruttato adesso c 'è tutta una cosa di allevamenti intensivi, ma questo lo scoperto dopo. Comunque la storia del polpo è I'm a flashing underwater deep Underwater change of color, love it all I'm seen eventuals and a sense Sixteen tentacles Girl, I'm a flashing underwater deep Underwater change of color, love it all I'm seen eventuals and a sense I make her old stuff and sweat fall all 'bord Ram a right hand a cold E come si dice "woodpecker" in italiano? Ah beh, quello che fa tu, tu, tu, tu, no? E picchio. Picchio? Qual è la storia del picchio? Questa è la reggina, lo so. Perché ci sono dei suoni che assomigliano il picchio. Sono di picchio, no? Non è interessante la storia dell 'armadillo? L 'armadillo è molto interessante perché io mi identifico molto nell 'armadillo, penso che tutti noi possiamo essere delle pallette. L 'armadillo si chiude a palletta e si difende. Però qual è la cosa bella armadillo che viene cacciato per essere ne mangiata la carne, ok, sapete questa cosa? Ma lui è praticamente riesce, cioè la cosa interessante è questa, che lui è il portatore della lebra, cioè un animale che ha una bellezza e una potenza assurda, ma in realtà è anche il portatore di una malattia gravissima, ok? E questo è un po' una metafora zen della bellezza che si nasconde dietro a questo pericolo della sua essenza ok invece viene che è cacciato per essere mangiato e ma lui invece si racchiude a palletta e riesce a proteggersi da tutti quanti nonostante venga cacciato ed è portatore di una malattia va beh è una cosa così che a me affascina molto io mi sento un po' armadillo tutti possiamo essere così quanti linguaggi ci stanno in oranio tre tre english spanish in portugese - Un po' di sardo? - Sardo non c 'è in questo. - Neanche l 'italiano, no? - Neanche l 'italiano, no. C 'è oltre a canzione interessante che possiamo parlare. Tortorella, secondo me è molto bella. Tortorella. Tortorella che è un altro animale, un uccello che vive ancora nella mia casa di Firenze. Adesso io vivo a Roma da qualche mese. Il suo suono mi svegliava tutte le mattine e insomma alle 8, precisissima, puntuale. E a partire dal suo suono che ho registrato e abbiamo sviluppato tutta la canzone. La canzone parla di un sogno che io ho fatto durante l 'epoca pandemica in cui ho sognato questa grande anatra nel cielo che teneva in bocca un cucciolo d 'uomo, questo cucciolo d 'uomo che poteva essere un bambino neonato. Il sogno viene descritto nella canzone quindi suggerisco di ascoltare la canzone per sentirlo tutto quanto ok però in sostanza quello che diciamo nella canzone è che noi siamo delle papere con dei cuccioli duomo in bocca dentro un abecco appuntito questo quello che diciamo cioè alla fine abbiamo questo essere infantile dispettoso e reazionario che è il nostro essere infantile però siamo anche anadre (soft music) (soft piano music) (piano music) Estilia, che bella la storia della torrella. Per parlare sulla musica è il processo di fare questo album. Come va? Come è stato il processo? Pesso faccio sogni, reagisco, la mattina mi sveglio e inizio a suonare e compongo. Poi la musica influenza i testi, i testi influenzano la musica. Alcune cose dei testi, per esempio Nido, non l 'ho scritto io, il testo l 'ha scritto una poetessa francese di nome Flor Gueren che è una mia persona con cui ho suonato in Spagna quando vivevo a Madrid, per esempio in quel caso gli ho raccontato il mio senso di oppressione, la musica l 'avevo già scritta anche della parte della melodia e le abbiamo adattato il testo che lei ha scritto successivamente a quello che l 'ho raccontato dell 'oppressione che si può vivere dentro a un paese. Io mi ricordo che quando lei ha scritto questo testo io ero andata a vivere lì in Spagna perché in Italia aveva una appena chiuso i porti, c 'era un governo di destra molto crudele e molto fascista che ha letteralmente fatto morire centinaia e poi migliaia di persone davanti al mare dove noi andiamo a fare il bagno all 'estate e quindi Nido parlava proprio di questo, io era indignata, mi sentivo impotente, l 'ho raccontato a lei, la parte musicale, la volevo semplice e così è stata, scrivere la musica è facile, trovare anche la connessione con le parole, invece forse certe volte più difficile, quindi questa florgherena ha partecipato alla scrittura, per esempio. Però sì, certe volte musico il testo e lo arrangio, oppure parto da una musica che è ispirata a quel sogno, a quella sensazione. Spesso di frustrazione, che però si trasforma, poi la musica diventa un modo per aiutarmi a me e forse anche agli altri a reagire di fronte all 'impotenza o e ripeto all 'oppressione. Quello che io ho vissuto negli ultimi anni, credo che tanti di noi, anche con quello che sta succedendo politicamente nel mondo, è senso di claustrofobia e voler fare qualcosa, non lo so. E alla fine la musica si trasforma anche in modo positivo, anche allegro, perché quello che poi vogliamo trasmettere almeno io è anche un happy end, no? Cioè che invece le cose andranno bene. \[MÚSICA\] ♪ Te hablo, te abrigo, te amparo, te tablo, te abrigo, te cebo, te caliento, te abanico, te refresco, te refresco ♪ ♪ Suato lengua, tu tierra, tu madre, tu patria, tu nido, tu nido, tu nido ♪ ♪ Me # Me casas, me asfixias, molestas. # Me hagas, llegas, persigues. # Si lo fuesses, yo podría volar. # Volver. # Dejaría a sanidad # a los que por ti migran. "Migran, se lo fueses, vuoserei assoggiare il puerto, un refugio seria..." Posso dire una cosa, ho letto l 'altro giorno. Quando un bimbo inizia a parlare, loro cantano e quando iniziano a camminare, loro ballano. E quando prendono qualcosa da fare scrivere, loro non scrivono, loro disegnano. Quindi l 'arte, iniziamo tutti quanti con l 'arte, con l 'espressione artistica. E poi è proprio quadrato essere linguaggio, essere giusto, essere bel... Però intuitivamente siamo tutti artisti. Sì, Sì. Ok, bello. Ci sono tantissime cose che possiamo creare all 'altro di un sistema di control. Una domanda per Amy. Parliamo un po' del processo di essere produttrice con questo album. È stato sempre un onore. Io adoro tutti quanti negli au che toccano. Sponono nel yo. Io sono venuta un po' più tardi dopo ha iniziato tutto nei studio vari sono venuta a Roma dopo praticamente metà del disco è stato già registrato quindi c 'ero a Roma partecipare, suonare un po' dare suggestioni cosa fare ma principalmente io ho aiutato da scoltare, scoltare, scopt, tutte le musiche e come si può mettere tutto opposto, avere senso, no? Perché è sempre interessante quando io ho confrontato la stessa situazione con un disco regente mio, varianti che ho fatto nel corso di quattro anni e ho messo tutto assieme, "Cabello !" e poi no, no, è stato un catastrofo perché ogni pezzo aveva un altro senso, un altro direzione, un altro suono, tutto quanto. Proprio si deve raccogliere tutto quanto e fare delle aggiustamenti, creare un senso enorme con tutto quanto. Quindi è stato bellissimo collaborazione con Ercilia ovviamente e anche Claudio Moscone che ha fatto un mixaggio dove mi sagio una bella scultura musicale creare questo progetto. Ho fatto del lavoro più tardi, però c 'era sempre al dentro. Che bello! Che bello! E dimmi la storia dell 'arte. L 'artwork ha realizzato Resh Zeni, che è la stessa persona che ha realizzato le copertine degli altri due dischi, sempre ovviamente sull 'ispirazione delle musiche e quindi rappresenta questo essere assolutamente di genere indefinito, genere non binary direi, o direi anche a gender che esce fuori dalla terra e dal mare e sotto è collegato con tutto l 'universo di uova, radici, polpi, tartarughe. Quindi Resha ha seguito tutta questo grandissimo trip che mi è che che l 'ho raccontato che sono poi le canzoni e che è successivo anche al secondo disco. Nel secondo disco l 'artwork rappresentava un essere che entrava si guardava allo specchio sembrava che cercasse di entrare dentro la natura e invece in questo terzo disco è completamente immerso e ne è parte completamente collegato come il discorso che facevamo che facevamo sulle lingue, sulla biodiversità e sulla connessione profonda, l 'unica via è connettersi e quindi sì, l 'artwork rispecchia perfettamente l 'intenzione delle musiche, che raccontano delle storie, ma che tutte quante vogliono poi spingere a cercare queste alleanze, queste connessioni profonde, con se stessi, con gli altri, ma tutto con la, sì, con il mare, con gli esseri, con tutti gli esseri, senza distinzioni. Io non credo per niente nelle nazioni, e meno che mai nelle alleanze tra le nazioni che sono sempre solo per fare guerre e denaro. È un po' un invito, insomma, a cambiare un po' la posizione, no, con cui ci mettiamo sul pianeta. Siamo parte di questa palla, il pianeta ou. Che poi l 'idea di ou è questa, cioè che ogni uovo può essere un uovo di qualsiasi animale e così lo è questo disco e così gli altri dischi e così è la corte. La corte di ou sta piano piano crescendo, abbiamo un sacco di elementi, siamo una ventina di persone adesso. Tu pure, Rose, adesso se la regina decide al volo potresti essere a questo punto parte della corte, non so, però il ruolo lo lo deve decidere Emi. Dobbiamo unirci, non importa fare uscire di ischi la musica come cose commerciali, come progetti di conquista economica. Sono messaggi, no? Io sono molto felice che Emi anche questa volta ci ha accompagnato in questo terzo uovo perché è un legame che continua ed è veramente transnazionale, trasmusicale, tranzi, in generale tranzi. Brava, bravi eh, bravi, bravo. Comunque l 'arturale che rispecchia tutto questo, Resha ha preso perfettamente il filo dal primo disco che era l 'uomo capitalistico proprio, non so se è presente la copertinera, questo uomo con la faccia d 'atrota, il secondo era sempre un essere che cercava di entrare ma non riusciva a entrarci nella natura, si voleva connettere con i pigmei, con il canto di Yengi, il protettore della foresta e poi invece niente in questo disco ci siamo tutti trasformati in animaletti, siamo tutti papere, tartarughe, tortorelle, armadilli, cucinelle. Non posso immaginare un disco meglio per i fan di tutte le cose, del diversità. Tutti tipi di diversità. Quanti dischi hanno o tre. E il terzo disco. L 'adoro. E grazie per tutto il lavoro e i sogni. Grazie a te. Ersilla c 'è una visione incredibile come composerice, come genio, che è cambiare il mondo con la musica e creare la possibilità darsi il potere a migliorarci. Regina mia, io sono tua fan. Per gli ascoltatori, c 'è altro intervista con Amy e Ercilia, episodio 11 di Stazione 1, dove paliamo un po' della storia del band, del tutorial e del background. Allora, questa conversazione, paliamo dalla storia del questo disco nuovo. C 'è altro che volete raccontare prima di sarirtarci? Una cosa che non è del disco, ma ci tango a dirla, è per il pubblico soprattutto internazionale di seguire il sito a Foras, noblogs, e ti voglio mandare questo link, che è il link del movimento che raccoglie tutti i collettivi che in Sardegna sono uniti per lottare, resistere contro l 'invasione e la colonizzazione che c 'è da parte della NATO e degli eserciti della NATO che vanno lì a fare queste drammatiche esercitazioni che stanno contaminando e distruggendo l 'isola e quindi c 'è questo sito dove si possono trovare tutte le informazioni, spero sia anche in inglese, però è il primo luogo in cui magari attingere per avere più informazioni riguardo quello che succede in sardegna e si chiama a foras \[MÚSICA DE FUNDO\] Grazie mille a Ercilia e Amy per essere tornate nello show e per aver regalato al mondo nuove canzoni da cantare. Si prega di acquistare alcuni album di OU su OU Music. para guardar el hospitáculo de viajo ModoDivere TV. La música está tata composta da el sitio Prosperie per el Grupo Ou. La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto eregistrato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Montato da [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com). [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S3E13 Uranio: the Unconfine-able Album by Ou URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e13-ou-uranio/ Last updated: 2026-08-24T19:46:17.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-it/s3e6/ou/uranio) In what language does the tortoise sing? Ou has a new album, *Uranio*! Amy Denio translates for composer Ersilia Prosperi, and speaks for herself as Ersilia's producer and bandmate in this dynamic, multilingual band. The theme music of the Modo di Bere podcast comes from Ou's album Pisces Crisis. You can purchase Ou's first two albums at [oumusic.bandcamp.com](https://oumusic.bandcamp.com/album/pisces-crisis-2?ref=mododibere.com), and grab the new album at [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Uranio is the perfect album to investigate the connections between biodiversity and linguistic diversity. The title comes from the uranium from NATO's wargames that is affecting wildlife populations in Ersilia's ancestral home, Sardinia. Visit [aforas.noblogs.org](https://aforas.noblogs.org/?ref=mododibere.com) to learn about this issue. To hear the story of Ou, and to hear some music from their first two albums, listen to our first interview with Ersilia and Amy, [Season 1 Episode 11](https://www.mododibere.com/ersilia-prosperi-and-amy-denio/) of this podcast. Ersilia's website: [www.ersiliaprosperi.com/en](https://www.ersiliaprosperi.com/en?ref=mododibere.com) Amy's website: [amydenio.me](https://amydenio.me/?ref=mododibere.com) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DH80-eRxe%5FT/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DH80-eRxe%5FT/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DOToQkQjeyH/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DOToQkQjeyH/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript No, it's interesting. In Italian, they say, "I made a dream." They don't say, "I had a dream." Un sogno che ho fatto. That's really beautiful. It's a very different way of seeing the dream world, you know? In English, we say, "I had a dream." Like, almost like it was mine or... But, "I made a dream." It's just so much more Welcome to Motody Berry, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. So excited, you guys, because I have some big news. Oh, the band who composed the theme music for this podcast has a new record out. If you listen to season one, episode 11 with Ercilia Prosperi and Amy DeNio, then you already know a lot about this band. If not, you can go back and listen to them. I'm sure you'll want to after you hear this interview today with Ercilia and Amy, about their new record, "Irania," which is out now on folder -roll records. And Celia and Amy are amazing musicians. They're both multi -instrumentalists. And the band "Owu" is really interesting to me because they sing in many different languages and dialects, starting with "Owu," which means "egg" in Sardinian, which I think is so cool. So, tell me Cioè, abbiamo messo un sacco, l 'abbiamo iniziato ad edistrarci. "Tell us about the themes of the album "Irania". È un disco che parla molto di quello che accade. We are here as musicians to change the world to a better place by Bringing all this into question. What is the family? I love the discourse on the album of the idea of nest needle is the first up first song on the album This means nest and it's it's about relationships. Are they nests or are they more? Cobwebs that that trap you that's a really beautiful metaphor that brings into question the function of of home. How can we bring the balance to an idea of living together, working together, collaborating together without trapping each other into this dysfunction? Ursula, I think, is one of the greatest geniuses I know, absolutely, who brings this sense of irony and urgency to look around us and question if we can accept this. And in fact, most of the time we cannot. So let's not accept what's going on. Let's find a way to bring a more positive spin to our relationships with everyone, to begin to communicate with strangers, to begin to advocate for open borders, to have empathy. - That's definitely what I'm interested in. But this work, this work that I'm doing, and can you explain about the base on Sardinia, like what that's about? The NATO base is, NATO, everyone understands, is the coalition of armed forces in Europe, and one of the biggest bases is on the coast of Sardinia, and they spend billions of dollars on war games to practice their new toys, which cost billions of dollars, euros, I should say, and this money could very easily go towards education, it could go towards refugees, it could go towards building a better society that's positive and supportive, but instead it's completely squandered on these ridiculous war games that result in the decimation of the land, the decimation of the sea, and has very toxic results because of depleted uranium, very toxic substances, that the war machine thinks is necessary for their toys. So that's really one of the reasons why this album is called Uranium, Uranio, to call this into question. Are these war games necessary? Is war really good for the economy? I'm not so sure. If you want a complete world of dead people, then yes, it's perfect for the economy. (singing in foreign language) Eu anilhar, escalar, notas malucar E sua, entre as rochas, cheia de lutas Lembranças do céu, Memórias de São Paulo Jogam as mundas Que adoram As que cantam nas mãos Bronzeadas Uma luta I'm not a linguistics expert. My background is more in wine and the biodiversity interest for me came through my studies in wine. So when I first started this podcast to put the linguistic diversity and the biodiversity together, I thought maybe I was coming up with some romantic idea. But the more I interview people over the last year and a half of working on this project. Whenever I talk to someone in linguistics who studies minoritized languages, they all tell me that people who study that were inspired directly by the environmentalists who were interested in biodiversity and that the extinction of animal species and the concern about that drew people to be more interested and to value more the rare and dying out, the languages that are dying out. So I'm learning that they're more connected than I thought. So definitely on this record, there's all these songs about animals. And so I really want to ask you about the connection between biodiversity and linguistic diversity on your record or any thoughts you have about that. (speaking in foreign language) - Biodiversity between language and nature is one and the same. There is a connection between everything. And really, when you understand that nothing is immutable, everything is going to be changing. Like when you look at a river, the civil core of engineers try to make a river nice and straight so they can have all the nice suburbs on either side and everything's gonna be nice and ordered. The river says, "No, I'm gonna follow "the path of least resistance. "This is the rule of nature. It has nothing to do with you civil engineers trying to control me because that's really a bad idea. So in biodiversity and in language, it's incredible in America right now how many dialects are springing to life Like on a daily basis. It's it's so interesting as I teach these students and they're using words I've never heard before and they're all the time Languages is always going to take on a form that reflects the very earth that we come from, the very environment that we're facing as global warming happens. I think our language is going to change as the ice is all melt. I think we're going to have developed new words like there were 100 ,000 words for snow before. We're going to have 100 ,000 words for heat very soon. I just think that biodiversity is a reflection of the mutability of nature and the ability to improvise, to accept and to go beyond what are perceived as limitations, but really they're not, they're just their inspirations for us to survive. There's a musical ornithologist from Hungary named Peter Szoké, who studied bird calls in the 1950s using modern technology. He recorded birds. When he slowed down these bird songs, he discovered that he was listening to Hungarian folk melodies and that he was listening to the cadence of the Hungarian language. Oh my God. But it was going so fast when you'd normally listen to a bird, you wouldn't know, but when you slow it down, it's like... So we intuitively comprehend this Almost without thinking, but we absorb this information from nature. So did he think the birds were? influencing us or The other way around influencing our language and our culture and everything there's so many animals on Oranio this new album Tell me the story of some of the animals and what they're talking about on Oranio. So the tortoise is the most persevering creature, it will always go forward and always find a way to make an alliance with that all around it, which is a great metaphor for our challenge as human beings. How do we make alliances? How do we persevere? We have to be patient. There's the myth of the tortoise and the hare. The tortoise is the one that wins because of perseverance and because of this indomitable will to create alliances. Alliances. \[MUSIC\] (singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language) Now tell me what's going on with the octopus well Celia just described the function of the octopus okay first of all octopus can really represent the whole female reproductive system and that the female octopus while she's protecting her young isn't really able to feed herself very well so the male octopus offers a tentacle or so hopefully it, something nice, for the female to eat so that she can receive enough nutrition to be able to raise her brood. I had no idea that happened. It's a fantastic metaphor, a sort of a feminist stance of looking at nature and the balance of nature that women are, they're producers and they need the help of men who sometimes willingly give up part of themselves in order to help women. One hopes that this will continue to be the case. (upbeat music) 16 tentacles girl, I'm a flashing underwater deep Underwater change of color, love it all Dancing eventuals in a sense 16 tentacles girl, I'm a flashing underwater deep Underwater change of color, love it all Dancing (singing in foreign language) - Can you tell me more about the song "Turturella"? (speaking in foreign language) Arcilia in her house in Florence she has a morning dove or turtle dove that lives right over her front doorstep and every morning right at 8 o 'clock it wakes her up and she decided well I'm just going to have to record it because it's the most beautiful sound even if it's for an alarm clock it's really very soothing and she did so and it goes woohoo woohoo and she thought wait a second I'm going to arrange that sound into a composition in honor of this beautiful creature. She did so, so that's the basis of the music is from this beautiful bird that woke her up every morning in Florence. During the pandemic, she had this absolutely surreal dream that there was a gigantic duck flying through the sky and hanging from its beak was a neonatal baby, like a little tiny, not a little gigantic human baby hanging from the the bill of this duck and that really in fact we are all ducks but at the same time the song evolves to the breezes on a beautiful sunday afternoon no i mean there's a sense of of relief in some way that even though we might be tortured as gigantic ducks i mean that's really a metaphor for how we are as humans ducks you know we think of ourselves as physically like svelte and beautiful and graceful i guess ducks are too anyway it's a confluence of dreaming and reality and the pandemic and hoping for a better world is really how i'd describe the song \[MUSIC\] (soft piano music) No, it's interesting, in Italian they say, "I made a dream." They don't say, "I had a dream." Un sogno che ho fatto. That's really beautiful. It's a very different way of seeing the dream world. In English, we say, "I had a dream." Almost like it was mine. But I made a dream. It's just so much more poetic. We had this discussion on have children versus make children. It's just two different things in English, but maybe it's not really. What was the production process like on this album? This project started really a long time ago, this third album. And like any project that takes a long time, each of the pieces developed its own unique aspect. So my work was to try to make a coherent whole out of the entire project. I came into the actual process when things were more or less halfway done. I came to Rome about a year and a half ago to participate in recordings and to give suggestions as a producer and in general to kind of get the big picture of how things were going. With the great collaboration of really everyone in the group, but especially Ercilia obviously, the bassist Claudio Mosconi, he was the one that took over the mixes and remixes and remixes. I confronted the same situation or shall we say challenge with my own album recently where I had recorded stuff over four years and I thought, great, I'll put it together as a mixtape and Christmas and give it to my friends. When I put it all together, it sounded terrible. Individually, they're all beautiful pieces, but as a coherent whole, I had to work for two months to try to remix everything to make a coherent feeling. And we went through the same process with this, with Uraño, their individual, beautiful, amazing pieces. And then bit by bit, we found a way to build this one enormous sculpture, a beautiful musical adventure that's poetic, ironic, political, terrifying, very sad, and deeply touching. And we really hope that you enjoy it. - The Cecilia is saying that music is a way for us to confront these grand frustrations looking at the way the world is really going to health and that it can bring some joy. And it can also remind people to be critical of what's going on but mainly to bring some joy because otherwise we can just stay desperate and look at only at the negative but she also talked about her process of creating this album which is that as a composer she would wake up in the morning and really begin composing right away and sometimes the text would influence the the music and sometimes the music would influence the text and then she also described the first song Nido has words by a french poet that she works with in Madrid, and her name is Flora Gavain, and Flora wanted to live in Italy, right? But she was refused entrance. And when Erselia looked at the situation more closely, realized that the frontiers of Italy had been closed, causing the death of thousands of people. This is just very unjust and made her enraged. And so the concept of Mido as Nest became a metaphor too, for becoming entrapolated in this vicious, cruel situation where there's no way out of the nest, there's no way in the nest, her frustration at seeing the situation of people being refused entrance on the beaches of people go to, you know, like suddenly people are denied entry. It's ridiculous. My friend Tom Cora used to call the customs people boundary janitors. I think that's a very kind way to describe this concept of borders is basically it's based on human insecurity that mainly comes from patriarchy and from I mean when you look at the the history of the world for millennia women were more at the center of society and there was a much much more egalitarian balance of each person doing what they could do, not being stopped. Let's hope that we can move back to the feminist age. \[MÚSICA\] # hauria tunidó, tunidó, tunidó. # Me acopias, me castras, # me asfixias, molestas, # me odias, ciegas, persigues. # Si lo fuese, si yo podría volar... # volver. Dejaría sanidad a los que por ti migran Si lo fuese vos erías hogar y puerto Un refugio serías de la araña jodidas I remember listening to an interview with the, oh, that director who made Pan's Labyrinth. And people wanted to know if that fantasy story was, if it was real or not, if the monsters were real or if the little girl was hallucinating. And instead of answering the question, He said, "Well, let's talk about some things that we made up like borders." I think fantasies can, they can have a big impact in reality when we don't understand that they're fantasies. And that's why I think arts and music are so important. It's like the pure expression of the imagination as opposed to a perversion of the imagination. I just came across this concept the other day. When babies begin to speak they sing before they learn language when they begin to walk they dance with their balance learning how to understand their balance and when they begin to write they draw they don't write words they don't know what words are so basically we're all born with this artistic inclination to improvise and then only later are we hampered in these expressions to become more structured and more quadratic. There's so many things we could invent besides a system for control. What's the story with this album cover? La Stora dell 'Art, dell 'Art d 'Orch. Yes, the artwork was done. This is the third album done by the same artist. She's amazing. Her name is Resh Zeni. In this case, the artwork is a being of sorts, really trans. It's in between any discernible gender or genre. It's attached to the earth. It's attached to the sea. It's dancing. It's inviting connection between all beings. It's an absolutely perfect cover to represent the intentions of the message behind this album, which is that all things are connected and that we are all beings on this gigantic egg of a planet. And that's a lot why Ursulia chose the name Oh, which is egg and Sardinian, because eggs can contain any creature. You don't know what kind of creature is going to come out sometimes. You see an egg, you could be a dinosaur, who knows. So that's the whole idea of, oh, is that we create these eggs that are songs that contain all kinds of incredible beings and sensations and communications and connections that can bring us all together and make the world a better place. The idea is that there are no confines, there are no borders really between any of this energy. We'll just absolutely go through all of it and we have to understand that we are all connected. So music is the magic alchemical element that can do that through sound wave to bring us together in joy and dance. So there you go. We can all be better through music. Erci, I'm such a fan. You're– - Oh, I'm Erci Namia, you are so fun. - So I want to direct our listeners to season one, episode 11, where we learn the story of Erci Leoprosperi, Anemi Denaio, and how they met and how they began to work together. We were introduced to the members of the band, the court of OU. So please check that out and learn a little more about the background and be introduced to everyone involved. This is really part two of that discussion where we're really focusing on this beautiful new record that's out now, O'Donnell. Don't hit me, hurt me, stop me, erase my soul Leave me alone, what's your fear? I need nobody, I'm a king in my home With a cheap thrill, chamberlain Where the hell is my court? It's really fabulous that you did the theme song 'Ercelia' 'cause I have Paladina Talle in my head almost every day and it's not a problem. Amy, any final thoughts about the record, the promotion process, the plans for the band? - Well, I'm just looking forward to the next album. I can't wait. And we hope to present this album. We'll see how it goes. We're looking for a formal presentation of the album in Rome this fall. (speaks in foreign language) (laughs) (speaks in foreign on. And then after that, we'll see. I know Estilia is one of the most prolific composers, making the most incredible music. It's in between all genres. She was talking before about the sort of trans genre, transgender, the aspect of the cover being a little bit between all, like it's really, it's not a specific thing. And so I really look forward to following this beautiful path, seeing what happens. - Thank you so much for sharing your music with Motodiberi and with the world. I hope that everybody hears this interview and gets excited and downloads this album so they can listen to it. - Right now it's available digitally on bandcamp .com. F -O -L -D -E -R -O -L, punto, bandcamp .com. - Great, so we'll put the link in the show notes as well. - Plans are underway to create a compact disc, but then also, we're planning to create a fantastic digital object, hopefully in the form of an egg, isn't that the idea? And videos. Ercilia has already helped to produce some beautiful videos, there's already a video on Polpo. Oh, great. And then also on Urranio, that's incredible. Where can we see these videos? On YouTube. What is the name of your YouTube channel? Ercilia Brósperi, faeda, channel. I'll put a link also to these videos in the show notes. Let me just say again the website where you can download this album is called folderallrecords .bandcamp .com that's f -o -l -d -e -r -o -l records .bandcamp .com. Is there anything else you want people to know? For For us, Noblogs is the website of this movement that in Sardinia fight against the invasion and the colonization of NATO armies. I will put that in the show notes. I don't want there to be this destruction of species in beautiful Sardinia. If you're hearing about this and you want to help, you can support this movement. I cannot think of a better album for students of all types of diversity and biodiversity and everything else. It's a beautiful atmosphere of sound across the whole album. It's so many different emotions and sensations just from the music. It just changes every second. It's really beautiful. There's so many emotions and so much humor and so much story in just the music itself before you even learn what the words mean. It's a fantastic album. I congratulate you. Oh, Guri, thank you so much for making it. I like to listen to your music when I'm walking in the park. I'll think about the birds and whether the birds speak in Brooklyn accents or not. They probably do. They probably do. It's such an honor to be in the same space with you, even online, really. You're such geniuses. I love everything you bring to the world. Thank you. I'm so glad the reference. Thank you so much for listening. This was the end of season three. It's a really exciting season, especially adding video episodes to YouTube. So while we wait for season four, I have some really fun bonus episodes planned for you. So if you haven't done it yet, if you've been thinking about becoming a paid supporter, you can go to patreon Barry, a special thank you to our Patreon supporters. You really do make this project possible. And for something free and wonderful, I want to let you know that the best way to find out about all the adventures at MotoDBerry is to sign up for the newsletter at MotoDBerry .com. Just put in your email. That's M -O -D -O -D -I -B -E -R -E .com for free weekly essays from all the writers at MotoDBerry magazine, updates on the podcast, updates on season four, and updates on that travel show that I keep talking about. So if you haven't signed up for the newsletter, I hope you do it now. Wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Support us on Patreon. Grab the newsletter at MotoDBerry .com and subscribe to the YouTube channel at Motodiberry to watch the travel show Motodiberry TV. Music for the show was composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band O. Purchase their music at the link in the notes. Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy this newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Raw Shrimp in Venice ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/rs4e1-trailer-raw-shrimp-in-venice/) [ The Wines of Le Marche ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e12-the-boot-in-20-marche-tiziana-forni/) ### The Kurmudgeon Guide to Mineral Water URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/the-kurmudgeon-guide-to-mineral-water/ Last updated: 2026-08-16T05:07:08.000Z When I was growing up in Wading River, Long Island, no one in my household drank mineral water. My parents’ friends drank the odd, bitter “fancy” water, either San Pellegrino or Perrier, for what I assumed was the purpose of putting on airs. Now I live in Ridgewood, Queens, a mineral water mecca thanks to its trove of immigrant-owned groceries. Exposed to “fancy” waters from around the globe, I’ve grown to love the stuff. The romantic idea that waters strongly differ in taste depending on the geology of their underground aquifers appeals to me greatly. From the comfort of my living room, I can taste sleeping volcanoes, or the foundations of stony Caucasian mountains. America, you should drink more mineral water. The 'purified' Aquafinas and Dasanis of the world are functionally repackaged tap water. But spring water, and mineral water in particular, is actually very interesting. The taxonomy is fairly arbitrary; all water cycles through a spring at some point, and all drinking water will have *some* particulate matter in it. Mineral water, as it's understood in the U.S., generally means spring water with noticeable mineral content, sold more or less the way it came out of the ground, with the exception of some added gas for carbonation. (It can actually come out of the spring carbonated naturally, but most carbonation is artificial.) I’ll share my favorite mineral water brands below, but first, some advice: Choose glass bottles over plastic. I have no real idea why this matters, but it does. Any time you’re making a drink that calls for fizzy water, like a long drink or a spritz, nice mineral water will taste a thousand times better than plain soda water. Always take the health-related claims surrounding mineral water, including the anecdotes in this article, with a big grain of salt (or a gram of bicarbonate, as it were). After much passionate investigation, here are my favorite mineral waters. > “Getting your emergency hydration from this bitter bottle will make you feel more like a connoisseur and less like an overgrown baby. ” 1\. [**Borjomi**](https://borjomi.com/en?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=the-drink-where-you-can-actually-taste-the-minerals&%5Fbhlid=033fe83941a7be5293ea4c01c7de4d1d081fc699) A water I love so much I occasionally schlep home entire cases, this Georgian specialty seems broadly popular across the former Soviet Union and neighboring states. By American normie standards, it’s the weirdest, most aggressively mineral water I’ve come across. Its medicinal, slightly fishy aroma is liable to alienate all but the steeliest mineral maniacs. The flavor is crisp, pleasantly bitter, and slightly chalky; the texture is mildly viscous. Borjomi is the best hangover cure/preventative I’ve ever found, just ahead of light cardio and tripe soup. Due to its high sodium, magnesium, and bicarbonate levels, I consider it nature’s Pedialyte. At any rate, getting your emergency hydration from this bitter bottle will make you feel more like a connoisseur and less like an overgrown baby. This assertive water is not just for the treatment of misery. It’s equally good as part of a classy natural wine dinner or used as a chaser for fatback-infused vodka. I’d be remiss not to mention that Chambers, the esteemed Tribeca restaurant helmed in part by Master Sommelier Pascaline Lepeltier, once gave Borjomi a place on their impressive beverage list. Borjomi is not on the menu at Chambers these days, though you still might find it in a cocktail or two, but selling my favorite weird-ass Georgian mineral water was one of the many little touches that helps make Chambers my favorite restaurant in NYC. That and the sweetbreads. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Borjomi-Website.jpeg) **Is it really a spring without a miraculous origin story? Borjomi’s source was supposedly discovered by a huntsman who watched the water heal a wounded deer. (Screengrab from Borjomi’s trippy website)* 2\. [**Radenska**](https://www.radenska.si/en/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=the-drink-where-you-can-actually-taste-the-minerals&%5Fbhlid=be75d7a18cd173ff670e1c5209892f561e3bb058) Radenska is another favorite of mine, a Slovenian water that’s a bit less salty and funky than Borjomi while still having a pronounced bitter flavor. I find it’s great for settling an upset stomach due to its bicarbonate content. It pairs well with salty and acidic foods. Reach for it with typical Balkan fare like grilled cevapi, peppers, and brined cheese. 3\. [**Borsec** ](https://mamtakim.us/products/borsec-mineral-water-naturally-carbonated-4/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=the-drink-where-you-can-actually-taste-the-minerals&%5Fbhlid=0e1ca480445449c0ffd16648e5a53e4510956bf5) A product of Romania, Borsec has a clean, classy kind of bitterness and a tiny bit of acidity. High in calcium and magnesium, I’ve found it to be restorative when I’m sick and trying to keep my fluid intake up. It comes in a non-carbonated version which, for whatever reason, has a much lower mineral content, so make sure you go for the bubbly kind if you want the full experience. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Kurmudegon-s-Favorite-Mineral-Waters.jpg) **The top three are Kurmudgeon’s top three.* 4\. [**Gerolsteiner** ](https://www.gerolsteiner.de/en?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=the-drink-where-you-can-actually-taste-the-minerals&%5Fbhlid=4160bfa4a791d018f565d44d0a0dfc50a104852d) Probably my favorite among the mainstream Western European brands, Gerolsteiner is one of those bottles you can find in upscale groceries or health food stores anywhere in the U.S. I once won a case of it in an Instagram raffle, which made me feel like the only person in America following their [**U.S. account**](http://www.instagram.com/gerolsteiner%5Fusa?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=the-drink-where-you-can-actually-taste-the-minerals&%5Fbhlid=1c4326e2b4b7a398db9c60f0594dcc06be69d800). It’s reliably delicious and goes well with a meal. I have a hunch it’s good for digestion, too, which is not surprising coming from Germany, the same country that gave us [**Underberg**](https://underbergamerica.com/?srsltid=AfmBOoqWrXXq8VmChYSD0ktdbMGySb9pHmORKhV27Sx-2IpSme8h5OSq&utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=the-drink-where-you-can-actually-taste-the-minerals&%5Fbhlid=7d4d8db589484e710f8f2ba94be4b40ebd43092c). 6\. [**Güitig** ](https://tesaliacbc.com/una-bebida-para-cada-ocasion-de-tu-vida/aguas/guitig/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=the-drink-where-you-can-actually-taste-the-minerals&%5Fbhlid=6c3877caeb29833c8874332bee4f2f78d4ff5bba) Pleasantly chalky and creamy mineral water from Ecuador. It makes me feel like an Andean tuber growing in fertile mountain valley soil. Anecdotally, chugging a bottle of this after a heavy drinking session is very helpful for sobering up quickly. > “It makes me feel like an Andean tuber growing in fertile mountain valley soil. ” 7\. [**Uludağ** ](https://www.uludagicecek.com.tr/en/our-products/sparkling-natural-mineral-waters/uludag-natural-mineral-water?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=the-drink-where-you-can-actually-taste-the-minerals&%5Fbhlid=3925ba605b067ee46dc1ba7787b4453c454f4bfa) A Turkish water sold in adorable little green bottles in the Balkan stores and cafes near me. Uludağ has an odd, distinctive note somewhere between popcorn, cardboard, and balsa wood. 8\. [**Topo Chico**](https://www.coca-cola.com/us/en/brands/topo-chico?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=the-drink-where-you-can-actually-taste-the-minerals&%5Fbhlid=38f215d8ef0d6f3b128fa6a72b7a32d48aa4a0ba) Pretty good! Low-ish mineral content but it tastes good, so I’m not complaining. 9\. [**Peñafiel**](https://www.penafiel.com/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=the-drink-where-you-can-actually-taste-the-minerals&%5Fbhlid=c32a9ef2db6650113f894808ab5dc8de761ab4f2) A Mexican brand I tried for the first time recently. Despite the visual branding, which reminds me of toothpaste or soap, the actual flavor is citrusy and quite nice. A great option for cocktails. ### ▷S3E5 Lo Stivale in 20: Marche (con Tizana Forni) URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s3e5-lo-stivale-in-20-marche-tiziana-forni/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:09:19.000Z Per la serie "Lo Stivalo in 20," un esperto porta in vita una regione vinicola italiana, parlando di uva, vini, clima e tradizione – e consigli per pianificare una visita! Per le Marche, Rose Thomas intervista Tiziana Forni, originaria di Ancona e professionista del vino specializzata in vini italiani. Tiziana spiega l'etimologia del nome plurale della regione "Le Marche". Condivide detti dalle Marche e analizza le uve e i vini maggiori e minori di questa regione, dal bianco al rosso, al rosso frizzante, fino alla co-fermentazione con ciliegie locali e servito sul gelato. Ogni marchigiana con cui abbiamo parlato dice che le Marche sono un tesoro nascosto che produce vini di ottima qualità e pregio. Le pecore felici vagano per la campagna collinare, (aneddoticamente) facendo spuntini con uva da vino, ma solo da vitigni particolari. Costellate di città medievali murate e sede di una delle piazze più belle d'Italia, le Marche meritano considerazione per il tuo prossimo viaggio nel vino. [Ascolta in inglese / Listen in English](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-en/s3e12/boot-in-20/marche/tiziana-forni) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)La sfida principale del vino nelle Marche sono le Marche, è una regione che non è conosciuta. Qualche volta anche al di fuori delle Marche non è che non conoscono le Marche, ma non hanno un 'idea della geografia, delle città. Il primo punto è di far conoscere la regione perché è una regione molto bella e di uscire un po' fuori dalle destinazioni oserei dire tipiche. (upbeat music) Benvenuti a un 'elezione speciale di Moro di Bere, il podcast delle bevande e detti locali. Oggi ho il piacere di intervistare Tiziana Forni per raccontarci le marche per la serie "L 'Ostivalo in venti". In questa serie, intervisto in esperto per ciascuna le 20 regioni vinicole italiane per una panoramica dirattica. Faleremo della storia regionale, delle sfide e delle opportunità per il presente e il futuro suolo, clima, uve, i vini, leggi pertinenti sul vino e suggerimenti su come visitare. Che tu abbia appena iniziato con il vino italiano o che tu sia un fan da anni, una cosa che ho imparato è che puoi sempre andare più a fondo con l 'Italia. C 'è sempre di più da imparare, perfetto per lo spettacolo, poiché il moto di Bore di Bere è provare cose nuove, divertirsi e non smettere mai di imparare. Prima di presentarvi tiziana forni, voglio farti sapere che Bore di Bere è una programma supertatto dagli ascoltatori. Per favore, prenditi un momento per visitare patreon .com /morribere per diventare un sostenitore oggi. Io e Tiziana saremo qui al tuo ritorno. Tiziana Forni è nata e cresciuta al Ancona, capoluogo delle Marche, quindi è originaria di questa regione. Ha iniziato a lavorare nel settore Viti Vinicolo nel 2003 ed è stato un vero amore a prima vista e un educatrice del vino e sommelier certificata che si è trasferita a New York nel 2015 lavorando come specialista del vino italiano per un un importatore edifino. Benvenuto a Teziana. Grazie, mi vero piacere. Piacere mio. Dove sono le marche? Dunque le marche sono nel centro Italia, prima di tutto, e nella costa orientale. Praticamente io ho una cartina, dunque questa è la mappa dell 'Italia suddivisa con le venti regioni, quindi potete vedere che le marche sono nella parte orientale, quindi nel mare Adriatico a nord confinano con l 'Emilia Romagna, un piccolo angolino della Toscana, l 'Umbria decisamente, un piccolo angolino sud del Lazio e proprio la parte sud invece a Bruzzo. Quindi è con una ragione con un clima perfettamente, diciamo, mediterraneo, considerate che nella parte sud l 'Italia è attraversata dal 43° parallelo che è quello che comporta un po' più la differenza nel clima tra nord e sud in questi casi. Quindi questa è la posizione delle Marche con un clima piacevole perché comunque abbiamo un clima che è anche freddo d 'inverno e soprattutto umido lungo la costa. Io sono di Ancona, ecco, quindi sono proprio sulla costa, da qui potete vedere invece proprio la topografia della regione che non ci sono pianure perché sono montagne dove si può sciare tranquillamente d 'inverno, molta collina con una piccoli paesi sparsi in queste bellissime collina marchigiana che è molto morbida, molto molto verde, molto rilassante e poi c 'è il mare, ma il mare abbiamo sabbia, qui per esempio non c 'è assolutamente sabbia, c 'è Poca a Pianura, pochissima a Pianura. Palliamo un po' delle modi di dire delle marque, modi di dire delle marque, va bene, chiaramente il Marchigiana, allora prima di tutto io mi definisco Marchigiana Doc, perché ovviamente sono nata e cresciuta in questa regione, sicuramente il detto più famoso che soprattutto agli italiani viene in mente è quello di "Meglio un morto in casa" che è un marchigiana alla porta che ovviamente non è una bellissima presentazione per noi marchigiani però questo detto proviene dal fatto che nel passato le marche essendo distretto distante dal vaticano e le marche hanno parte dello Stato Pontificio, quindi del Vaticano, perché l 'Unione d 'Italia è una cosa, per noi italiani è anche abbastanza recente, perché sono un po' più di 100 anni insomma. Per cui, facendo parte del Stato Pontificio, ma essendo praticamente al lato posto del Vaticano, i barchigiani erano quelli che andavano a bussare alle porte e a raccogliere le tasse, a chiedere le tasse, per cui questo a nessuno piace ovviamente. Ecco il perché di questo detto. E di Ancona? Premetto che purtroppo non so molto l 'Anconetano, nel senso del vero vernacolo anconetano. Per qualche motivo in casa non abbiamo mai parlato un dialetto spiccato, sì, accento alcune parole, ma la prima volta che ho sentito dire la parola pitra ho guardato guardato e tocca cos 'è la pittra? Non avevo la più pallida idea, è limbuto per esempio, ma io non lo sapevo, è una parola anconetana proprio. Di detto sicuramente uno dei più famosi ad Ancona è a parlare Fadiga perché c 'era questo pseudo conte che si chiama che era soprannominato barigello che praticamente significa dire è tanto facile parlare ma poi a fare le cose invece, ecco, chiacchiri, chiacchiri, ma poi non arrivi a concludere nulla. Anche il kakabaya non mochiga, un 'altra cosa anconetana. Mi sono detto kakabaya che mochiga, ho detto dico penso che se mi sento un anconetano che parla di vernacolo, mi dice, guarda, lascia perdere, non è per te. In inglese abbiamo due modi di dire "talk is cheap" e "his bark is worse than his Sì, sì, sì, significa perfettamente quello, parlare è sì, è facile. Se tu avessi un amico che non ha mai bevuto un vino delle marche, quali sono alcune dei vini che suggeri i resti di provare per primi? Io direi di dividere vino rosso e vino bianco, chiaramente. sicuramente nel vino rosso non ho dubbio a consigliare di assaggiare la lacrima di morro, scusate il vino è il lacrima di morro d 'alba. Il lacrima? Il vino, la lacrima luva il lacrima di morro d 'alba perché è un vettigno veramente unico, un differente a questo bellissimo floreale di viola e rose, ma poi comunque un vino secco, non è un vino dolce, ha tanto speziato, è un vino divertente. Per me che sono d 'ancone, qui le morlo d 'alba è decisamente molto vicina, è un po' il vino rosso quello che si usa quando si fa non so, una riunione di amici con prosciutto, formaggi, è proprio quello un po' il classico vino però in effetti è un vino che si presta invece a molto versatile perché ha questa aromaticità che si presta bene per tanti altri cibi quindi sì questo sicuramente è un suggerimento da da fare attenzione l 'acrima di morro d 'alba perché c 'è un vino in italia che si chiama l 'acrima cristin che invece è un vino della campania ma è il nome del vino e non il nome dell 'uva in questo caso qui abbiamo il nome il vino e il nome dell 'Uva. L 'altra cosa un po' divertente che lo stesso ho messo nell 'inglese Alba, non siamo in Piemonte. Morro d 'Alba è il nome di questa piccola cittadina a nord e più all 'interno rispetto a Ancona ma molto vicina e saranno 30 minuti di auto e si chiama Morro d 'Alba, il nome del paese. Ecco perché l 'Uva è la clima di Morro d 'Alba perché perché quella è l 'area, insomma. Si trova a solo dire, non è che la trovi in altre parti d 'Italia, questa uva. Quindi questo sicuramente nel bianco io d 'Anconetana è sicuramente di co -verdicchio. Il verdicchio comunque è un vino che ha grande potenziale, ha eleganza, struttura, ha tanti, diciamo, una ricchezza di sapore infinita, può invecchiare benissimo, probabilmente suggerirei il verdicchio. Mi piace molto l 'acrima e il verdicchio. Paliamo un po' delle diverse regione di verdicchio. Sì, il verdicchio si distingue in due principali aree. Il verdicchio dei castelli di Yesi, che è la parte più vicino al mare, che praticamente parte, sì, l 'inadale da Damorro d 'Alba fino ad arrivare un pochino all 'interno posso anche mostrarlo. Ecco diciamo più o meno questa zona qua. Mentre Matelica potete vedere che qui veramente sotto le montagne Matelica per cui due regioni con un suolo ma soprattutto un clima molto molto diverso. ecco perché abbiamo questo verdicchio dei castelli di iesi che diciamo ha una carattere un pochino più marino e quindi anche questa anche salinità nella realtà che forse è quello che si può definire il mineral tone di cui abbiamo parlato prima, una grande ricchezza di frutta anche di floreale è molto ricco, lo definiamo in grassezza in italiano diciamo, il verdicchio di castelli di iesi è più grasso del verdicchio di matelica. Il verdicchio di matelica ha un clima molto più fresco, anche freddo perché comunque hanno veramente le montagne. Anche la disposizione delle vigne sono diverse nei due casi e quindi è un vino sicuramente più elegante, ha meno ricchezza di sapori, quindi ecco è più magro, ecco in italiano diciamo più magro. Sono entrambi buoni, sono entrambi ottimi, dico sempre che il bello dell 'uva è proprio questo che in pochi chilometri si hanno dei risultati divini veramente diversi, che è sorprendente perché dice "ma l 'uva da cui parte è questa". Come ha cambiato l 'immagine di Veldicchio recentemente? Recentemente devo dire che per fortuna ha guadagnato in immagine e sta diventando sempre più una immagine di vino di qualità laddove e decenni fa, forse anche per la bottiglia che c 'era, non lo so questa che noi chiamiamo Anfora, aveva un po' un 'immagine da vino molto economico, noi in italiano diciamo da vino da pizzeria, ma ecco, laddove invece è un vino che ricco, che ha veramente potenzialità e io suggerisco sempre non bevete il vino d 'annata adesso però in Italia probabilmente tra un mese ci sarà già la 2024 in commercio aspettate beve godetevi le annate precedenti nel verdicchio aspettate un pochino per la 2024 purtroppo in tutto il mondo il consumatore sul vino bianco pensa al vino di annata, ma bisogna fare una distinzione tra uva e uva. Paleiamo delle altre bianche? L 'altro grande bianco sicuramente che sta, in italiano diciamo, sta spopolando, sta ottenendo un successo enorme è sicuramente il pecorino. Pecorino veramente ha un vino veramente giovane perché la prima bottiglia c 'è un di conflitto tra marca Abruzzo sul Pecorino. Sicuramente la prima bottiglia è nelle Marche, poi diciamo in Abruzzo sono stati più veloci a commercializzare, quello sì. Ma detto questo sono anche qui, abbiamo Pecorino di due zone diverse e veramente sono molto diversi. Comunque, la prima bottiglia di Pecorino risale più o meno agli anni 80 e era vino da tavola nelle Marche. Poi abbiamo avuto la Marche IGT, che è un grande cappello dove si considera appunto la regione, che è un vitigno della regione, e nel 2001 è stata fatta la Dio Si, che poi in italiano è doc, nella realtà diciamo Dio Si, e nel 2011 è entrata la Dio Cigi. È un vino che veramente in un decennio con Uffida, offida, DOCG ha acquistato la denominazione di origine controllata e garantita, che non è una cosa poi così semplice scontata avere, insomma, perché è un processo burocratico abbastanza lungo e complicato. Quindi un vino che, ripeto, non c 'era perché è un vitigno che richiede molta cura, ha bassissime resi e quindi ha una produzione piuttosto bassa, per cui nel passato i contadini non erano interessati ad avere un uova che non producesse. Ci sono vittini più rari, bianchi. In realtà, un vittigno di cui si sono scoperte le tracce negli anni 60 si chiama Garofonata, non ho mai avuto il piacere di assaggiarlo, perché credo che fino a pochissimo tempo fa si è stato usato più per blend. Adesso, insomma, se ne parla, potete anche fare un po' di Google e vedere anche chi sono i produttori. In genere vado nelle Marche a luglio e spero, insomma, di poterla assaggiare. Se non prima non so se andrò al Vinitali, ma eventualmente, diciamo, quando vado nelle Marche, ma non l 'ho mai assaggiato, mi tinglio bianco. Parliamo adesso dei rossi. I rossi dunque abbiamo già parlato di lacrima di morro d 'alba, lacrima perché praticamente l 'acino dell 'uva è molto ricco nella polpa ma la buccia è molto sottile per cui in passato tendeva a rompersi perché il contadino non dedicava quelle cure che erano richieste. Anche questo è un vitigno che negli anni 80 c 'erano pochissimi ettari perché non perché non lo coltivavano più, perché appunto rompendosi la buccia l 'uva si rovinava e non si poteva fare più vino ovviamente. Poi invece c 'è stato un produttore anche qui della zona che ha voluto fortemente recuperare il lavitigno, semplicemente basta più cura perché è chiaro che la buccia sottile tende a fare magari prendere qualche malattia di più all 'uva, ma con le cure necessarie e le attenzioni in vigna si risolve tutto, ecco. L 'acrima, ovviamente, è una regione in cui la produzione più alta è data da San Giovese e Montepulciano. Come abbiamo detto nel podcast in inglese, non possiamo parlare nel dettaglio di Montepulciano e San Giovese perché ci vuole un 'appuntata apposta per una delle due uve però possiamo parlare sicuramente di questo vino che è un blend di montepulciane sangiovese che è la denominazione che si chiama rossopiceno doc o rossopiceno superiore doc con alcune diciamo piccole differenze di produzione soprattutto dettate dal territorio insomma di produzione questo come definisco io è Montepulciano e San Giovese è un matrimonio perfetto perché si unisce il vigore e la potenza del Montepulciano ha l 'eleganza soprattutto anche alla parte più aromatica un po' più profumata del San Giovese rispetto al Montepulciano quindi si ottiene questo blend decisamente molto molto piacevole in bocca con un grande strutture e un vino che veramente ha un rapporto qualità prezzo eccezionale, assolutamente, che veramente vi incoraggia a provare. Sono tanti produttori, tante diverse sfumature, ma provatelo perché è un vino decisamente che vale la pena di conoscere. Di altri rossi sicuramente il più interessante è la vernaccia di Serra Petrona. La vernaccia di Serra Petrona di Ocg è uno spumante. La parola spumante in italiano esenzialmente significa bolle, non necessariamente dolce, però spesso la parola spumante si associa un po' a un vino dolce. Comunque a parte questo la vernaccia ci sono come l 'ambrusco, due versioni, l 'amabile e la vernaccia o dolce e la vernaccia secca, per cui anche qui abbiamo la distinzione, quello che rende unico questo vino prima di tutto che la vernaccia è vernaccia nera, non è un uva bianca ma è un uva decisamente rossa e poi un vino che si ottiene da passimento per cui ha una procedura di produzione che è piuttosto elaborata perché prima si devono passire le uve per un determinato tempo poi si venifica e poi si procede alla fermentazione per la bolla insomma. Molto interessante. Sì molto interessante, ha una piccola dio cg a Serra Petrona e la località che è nell 'entroterra di Macerata, abbastanza zona di montagna anche lì, tutto sommato, pochi produttori, è veramente un vino molto locale ma interessante soprattutto nella versione secca che con i solumi secondo me sta molto bene, voglio provarlo, qua fai fettica a trovarla, se mi capita che che la trovo te lo dico però si fa veramente molto fatica e garofonata che al momento non ho sentito nessuno nel mercato che ha una garofonata. C 'è un vino con ciliegie no? Sì esatto c 'è il vino di visciole che è un vino molto marchigiano, forse anche di qualche forza umbra magari, però decisamente è un vino marchigiano che è praticamente una, diciamo, un blend di vino e ciliegge. Le visciole sono delle cilieghe caratteristiche nel nostro territorio, sono cilieghe selvati, non si riesca a mangiare come frutta fresca perché sono veramente molto acide, tipo limone che, insomma, uno fa così o si mettono sotto zucchero sotto alcol allora questo è un vino che praticamente è nato perché i contadini come sai non sprecano nulla per cui quando il contadino faceva quando il contadino faceva il vino non ha la cantina per cui il vino dopo due tre mesi era ossidato allora per non sprecarlo ci mettevano queste cilieghe che erano state macerate nello zucchero e quindi il vino rifermentava e diventava un vino dolce ma che si poteva bere di nuovo insomma. Da lì poi c 'è stata un produttore nella parte verso urbino che ha iniziato a produrre il vino di visciole come diciamo produzione da cantina e si è allargata molto la produzione, perché tutti i produttori, diciamo, possono farlo, non proprio, però diciamo di sì, e in genere il vino base che va a fare blend, cuvè, chiamiamola, con le cilieghe, è o sanziovese, o montepulciano, o montepulciano e sanziovese, perché si parla proprio da un vino fatto e non dal mosto. Ma la cosa che invece è interessante è che alcuni produttori hanno deciso invece di fare il vino di visciole con base vino la clima di morro d 'alba per cui sia un vino che è molto più ricco perché la clima di morro d 'alba questa aromaticità che con le ciliegie è fenomenale mi raccomando è un vino rosso ma deve essere tenuto in frigo perché è un vino che va servito freddo oltretutto cosa importante perché sai quando uno compra il vino da dessert e dice "ma non lo bevo, si lo vina", non vi preoccupate, il vino da dessert lo tenete in frigorifero e due settimane si mantiene, ma anche tre, si mantiene benissimo. Non abbiate timore che lo dovete buttare via e poi detto fra noi quando assaggiate il vino di viscele, io non credo che dura due settimane. Provatelo, si trova qua, va bene con gelato, va bene con cheesecake, cioccolata perfetto con alcuni formaggi delicati, ma noi in Italia lo usiamo anche a fine pasto, qualche volta invece dell 'amaro prendiamo un bicchiere di vino di viscele. Adoro, quindi di viscele. Sì. È delicioso. Parliamo un po' della storia di vino e le marche. Ma La Lluina nelle Marche in realtà ha una storia molto antica perché si trovano, diciamo, delle testimonianze storiche già al tempo dei Piceni. I Piceni sono stati un popolo prima dei Romani, quindi parliamo veramente di tempi molto antichi con questo scrittore derustica che è stato uno dei primi scrittori a scrivere divino e menziona appunto nella zona del piscino dei vini di grande qualità. Le marque hanno origine in realtà nel vino vinicola comunque molto antica. All 'alto dei vini perché è famosa il marque? Dunque le marque sono famose perché sicuramente in Europa credo che siano famose principalmente per la parte della costa perché comunque una costa molto bella, è una costa anche che si presta anche alla famiglia per esempio, per cui diciamo negli anni 80 -90 sicuramente venivano per quel motivo dall 'Europa. Adesso diciamo c 'è un turismo che è un pochino diverso e diciamo sono famose perché le marche comunque in un 'unica regione veramente io qualcosa di con poco come la California, perché avete potete sciare e in un 'ora potete nuotare però non nello stesso stagione. Comunque diciamo che tra montagna dove si può sciare e la costa ci sarà un 'ora e mezzo di auto. Per cui ha la montagna che è molto bella con anche con alcune belle piste da scima comunque molto bella e c 'è questo lago dipilato che è un lago di origine graciale che è una cosa veramente molto tipica, non è un lago che è alimentato da fiumi insomma. L 'altra cosa è la collina molto bella, Monte Conero che veramente si tuffa nel mare, ma anche tutte le formazioni dei calamchi nella zona del piscino che sembrano dei piccoli canyon e che risalgono a che tempi. Le piazze marchigiane sono molto belle, imprimi se oserei dire, d 'Anconetana e quindi dove c 'è conflitto come tutte le regioni abbiamo conflitti no provinciali ma onestamente la piazza del popolo di Ascoli Picene una delle piazze più belle d 'Italia fatta completamente di Travertino è veramente spettacolare urbino città di cultura con il palazzo ducale veramente c 'è tanto da visitare perché tutti questi piccoli cittadine che sono tutte medievale, quindi con il castello, le mure che le circondano, sono veramente delle piccole chicche da vedere. Cosa sono famose le Marche? Le Marche sono famose sicuramente per le scarpe. La zona di Civita Nova è un distretto calzatuliero probabilmente il più famoso in termini soprattutto di brand elevati, upscale insomma. Abbiamo Tots, abbiamo Cesare Paciotti, io credo che in passato Jimmy Chou abbia prodotto le scarpe nelle marque, non sono sicuro a 100 % ma può essere, però c 'è questo distretto calzatturiero che parte da tutto, dall 'attomaia che è la parte superiore della scarpa, le suole, veramente una industria completa, uno dei settori più importanti della regione. Mi piace molto comprare le scarpe in Italia. A chi non piace. Quali sono alcune opportunità e sfide che veri per i vini delle Marche oggi? Beh, la sfida principale del vino nelle Marche sono le Marche, oserei dire perché è una regione che non è conosciuta, io scherzo per modo di dire io ho un periodo lavorato in Piemonte e vi posso dire che qualche volta anche al di fuori delle marche se non siamo nelle regioni circostanti non è che non conoscono le marche ma non hanno un 'idea della geografia delle città poco insomma un pochino di meno quindi il primo punto è di far conoscere la regione perché è una regione molto bella d 'altronde tutta l 'Italia bella e di uscire un po' fuori dalle, dalle destinazioni oserei dire tipiche. Marc sicuramente è una destinazione non tipica, non c 'è un turismo di massa, per cui ecco questo è il fatto che non sono conosciute come regione. Dall 'altra parte, punto di forza, devini marchigiani è un rapporto qualità a prezzo perché avete dei vini veramente di grandissima qualità, a prezzi sicuramente apportata di tutta le tasche onestamente. Poi chiaro ci sono i vini più cari però insomma ilina di massima potete avere qua nel mercato americato, potete bere veramente vini molto buoni, nel caso del Rosso Piceno che parlavamo prima del blend, ma veramente sui 18 -20 dollari potete trovare dei vini veramente molto, ma molto buoni. Si tratta un po' di fare un po' di ricerca, si tratta di non essere timidi quando ci sono gli "store testing" che a New York ci cita, diciamo prendendo tutti i "fine labor", quasi tutti "one store" fanno, quando ci sono approfittate avete la fortuna di avere i vini da tutto il mondo qua, per cui da punto di vista è chiaramente molto difficile sapere di tutto, non è possibile, però dall 'altro punto assaggiate, non abbiate timore di assaggiare, io faccio tanti storytesting, sì chiaro i storytesting poi è chiaro che è finalizzata la vendita, non è che dico di no, però la vendita può essere anche in un secondo momento, nel senso che voi avete assaggiato un vino, vi piace e ve lo ricordate e poi la volta dopo vedete la bottiglia e c 'è, ma io questo l 'ho assaggiato, mi è piaciuto. Non è che vi dovete sentire obbligati a comprare in quel preciso istante, questo è quello che penso io insomma, ma io sono una venditrice un po' tipica, giusto? E in Italia è normale fare in store tasting? Non l 'ho mai visto, italiano beve il vino al ristorante o o a casa. Bevano vini dei suoi regioni? Sì. Le liste dei vini dei ristoranti sono a un buon 80 % regionali, poi chiaro i ristoranti che hanno un altro livello coprono un po' tutto lo stivalen, insomma, però l 'ina di massa, la base della one list è sicuramente regionale. Addirittura provinciale, non solo regionale, nel senso che ad Ancona trovi più verdicchio di pecorino volendo oppure se vogliamo andare in Piemonte nelle langhe trovi in alcune parti trovi più barodo che barbaresco. Insomma è più normale avere una panoramica dei vini italiani in un ristorante italiano qui, no? In un certo senso sì dall 'altra parte è chiaro che ci sono delle ragioni di vendita che alcuni vini sono un pochino più difficili trovare al ristorante nel senso che se c 'è solo la carta dei vini a spiegare i vini è chiaro che il consumatore si dirige su determinate tipologie per avere altre tipologie ci vuole il professionista che le spiega. In che modo questa regione sta risentendo dei cambiamenti climatici? Dunque, premetto che io ormai sono dieci anni, non so più nella regione quindi si vado tutti gli anni un paio di volte all 'anno, però penso che è una regione che tutta l 'Italia è colpita dal, ma non tutta l 'Europa è colpita dal cambiamento climatico a livello sicuramente di vitticoltura però col fatto che le marche hanno comunque questa esposizione verso i balkani che quindi portano aria più fredda e dall 'altra parte hanno la montagna che blocca l 'aria più calda che viene un po' dalla parte occidentale sicuramente è un punto di di vantaggio poi credo che il cambiamento climatico è un po più nelle zone forse magari un pochino più a nord che non hanno mai avuto il problema del caldo, il sud d 'Italia, la Sicilia ha sempre avuto problema del caldo per cui sicuramente ci sono forme di come si dice di allevamento o pratiche che uno fa in vigna che sono sempre state indirezzate a diciamo proteggere dal sole. Le pratiche in vigna ce ne sono tante, io non sono una viticoltrice però ce ne sono tante la più semplice è proteggere dal sole a lasciando più foglie per esempio chiaro dopo si deve fare attenzione che non c 'è omidità sicuramente lo saranno guardando e tutti sono con seri pari però forse non è una zona il centro italia che quella più colpita che cosa di più vuoi condividere delle marche che invito tutti quanti a visitarle e come ho detto nella versione inglese se non siete mai stati in italia per me la prima città da dare a vedere è roma non sono romana sono marchigiana però roma è uno splendore bellissima punto lo stivale è ricchissimo qui dipende le marche se non vi piace il turismo di massa sono sicuramente un posto adatto perché non c 'è questo turismo così, è una regione turistica ma non come altre e è molto ricca, variegata, diciamo ripeta avete montagne, avete cultura, avete città storiche e importanti come urbino ma anche la stessa ancona, a musei, di Piceno e la costa che è la stessa e bellissima. Quindi il cibo, la bella cibo è buona in tutta Italia. La competizione è molto serrata. Sì, sì. E dove è possibile di scriverti per lavorare? Allora, dunque, mi trovate sui social media, Instagram, LinkedIn e Facebook con il mio semplicemente ti ziano a forni, poi Rose può condividere tranquillamente la mia e -mail, se volete informazioni, se volete un po' parlare delle marque, contattatemi pure. Grazie mille zanziana, voglio visitare perché non sono andata mai in le marque. Devi andare, devi venire, io ancora non ho fatto progetti, altra cosa nel 2025 è l 'anno del Giubileo quindi i bigliettieri saranno pazzeschi. Grazie Miletiziano. Grazie, grazie Rosa. C 'è l 'abbiamo fatta. È stato un parto molto lungo questo intervista perché credo che abbiamo cambiato l 'appuntamento direi 5 o 6 volte. Poi ci siamo sentite qualche giorno fa direi e abbiamo detto Sì, facciamo, basta. E grazie ai ascoltatori, ovunque tu vada e qualunque cosa tu beva ricorda di goderti la vita e non smettere mai di imparare. La música está tata composta de Hercilia Prosperie per el Grupo O. La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto e registrato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Montato da [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com). [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S3E12 The Boot in 20: Marche (with Tiziana Forni) URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e12-the-boot-in-20-marche-tiziana-forni/ Last updated: 2026-09-14T03:07:46.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-it/s3e5/lo-stivale-in-20/marche/tiziana-forni) For the Boot in 20 series, an expert brings an Italian wine region to life, talking grapes, wines, climate and tradition–and advice for planning a visit! For the Marche, Rose Thomas interviews Tiziana Forni, a native of Ancona and a wine professional who specializes in Italian wines. Tiziana explains the etymology of the plural region name "Le Marche." She shares sayings about and from Marche, and goes over the major and minor grapes and wines in this region, from white to red, to sparkling red, to co-fermented with local cherries and served over gelato. Every Marchigiana we spoke to maintains that the Marche is a hidden gem that produces wines of excellent quality and value. Happy sheep wander the hilly countryside, (anecdotally) snacking on wine grapes, but only from certain vines. Studded with walled medieval towns and home to one of Italy's most gorgeous piazzas, Marche deserves consideration for your next wine trip. > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DGTeDapJ8Sa/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DGTeDapJ8Sa/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) **Auto-generated transcript.** (Please excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript ## Tiziana Forni, Expert on the Wines of the Marche — 0:00 TF: You have the fortune that you have the wine from all over the world. Experience. Explore. Don't stop to Pinot Grigio for Italy, Prosecco and Chianti. They are good wines. Of course you can keep on drinking because they are good wines. But there is an entire world to taste. RTB: Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. \[music\] ## Welcome to The Boot in 20: Marche Edition — 0:57 Today I have the pleasure of interviewing Tiziana Forni to teach us about the Marche for the Modo di Bere series The Boot in 20\. In this series, I'll bring on an expert for each of Italy's 20 wine regions for an educational overview. We'll talk regional history, challenges, and opportunities for the present and the future. Soil. Climate. Grapes and wines. Wine laws and tips for how to visit. Whether you're just getting started with Italian wine or you've been a fan for years. One thing is you can always go deeper in Italy and there's always more to learn. So perfect for the show. Since the Modo di Bere motto is to try new things, enjoy yourself and never stop learning. So before I introduce Tiziana Forni, I want to let you know that Modo di Bere is a listener supported program. So please take a moment to visit Patreon.com/mododibere and become a supporter. Today. Tiziana and I will be here when you get back. *\[NOTE: We are no longer using Patreon! Become a member* [*right here*](https://www.mododibere.com/#/portal/) *to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\]* So Tiziana was born and grew up in Ancona, the main city of the Marche region. So she's a native of the Marche. She started to work in the wine industry in 2003, which was really love at first sight, seeing as at the time she wasn't even drinking wine. Tiziana is a wine educator and certified sommelier who moved to New York City in 2015, working as an Italian wine specialist for a wine importer. Tiziana, welcome. ## Meet Tiziana Forni, Marche Native and Wine Educator — 2:14 TF: Hi. That's very nice to be here with Rose. ## How Tiziana Forni Fell in Love with Wine — 2:17 RTB: You weren't drinking wine when you first got interested. How did you get into wine? TF: I know this is very funny. I have all my friends in Italy that they look at me. I can't believe that you are a wine expert. When I would say yes, like 25 years ago, I was not drinking wine. But this, I think because, you know, people think that the Italians are expert in wine. Maybe it's not totally true what it is. That wine is a part of our culture. So we are used to have to see wine. You know, since the very beginning when we are like a little kids. So for us it's very normal to, to have wine in, in in the house, in the family. So at that time, and the wine, when we were going to have a pizza together, it was most of the time the house wine, which I'm sorry to say now, I will be a lot of enemies, but I don't like house wine, especially when he's not bottled, because I, you know, when they were pour this wine, I thought, oh my God, this doesn't smell nice. I can't have something that it doesn't smell nice. And my friend was say, oh, you are. So do you say snob like that? You know, like this I say, I, I maybe, but I, I don't eat food that does smell not nicely. I don't even drink that wine that doesn't smell nicely. Then it happens that I started in '23 to work for a wine merchant and I say, okay, I need to, you know, to start to discover this world and so I, my first two wines were... So well, one actually is a red wine from Marche region and is Lacrima di Morro d'Alba. And the other was a Gewürztraminer, which is a different region. And I say from the bottle bottle wine and I say This is really quite different stuff. And that's how my one passion, born and growing up at that time, I feel really there needs to, to get education because I really could understand white, red, a little bit of rosé. Rosé that time was not really, you know, a big stuff in Italy. And so I made all my education as a sommelier certification which is useful. You have to study. ## Lacrima di Morro d'Alba — 4:54 RTB: I love that it was a lacrima that got you interested in wine, because it's a pretty unusual grape that you don't see that often. And speaking of the smell, it's very aromatic and floral. I think Lacrima is beautiful, this kind of purple colored wines in Italy that smell like violets and smell like roses. This is some of my favorites. And there's a few different wines from that category. And I just I'd like to joke that, well, people will sometimes ask me for my favorite wine, and it's like asking a musician for their favorite musician. Like, we just are going to pick one. But you know, if I'm feeling feisty, I could say, well, I like those wines that make my burps taste like violets, you know? ## A Saying from Marche About Bad House Guests — 5:30 So anyway, it's a silly story. But before we get to the wines, do you have a local saying from the Marche to share with us? TF: Oh, I have many. Unfortunately, I'm not that good to speak in dialect. I don't really, I have even a strong Italian accent. I would say use an accent from central Italy. Okay. But people, they, they struggle to understand where I am from. But when I am in Ancona with my friend, I, you know, I'm like, yeah. RTB: So what was your experience with dialect growing up? Was it something you heard a lot? Were you told to speak proper Italian? TF: My mom and dad were like a very simple person. You know, believe that. You know, they they especially my dad lived the, you know, was a kid the during the Second World War. So they didn't really have the, the possibility to get to like high school. No. So you know like a simple parents. So but I don't know for some reason we never talk the the real dialect. I can't even tell why. RTB: But you still you brought a modo di dire. TF: The most famous, which is not nice, which is not the dialect, is in Italian: "Meglio un morto in casa che un marchigiano alla porta." RTB: So better to have someone dead in your house than someone from the Marche knocking on the door. Why did they say that? ## Why Italians Say "Le Marche" (Not Just "Marche") — 6:54 TF: Because Marche. First of all, it doesn't mean market, but it means border because Marche was under the Pope, under the Vatican State. But the being Roma, the on the west side and the Marche on the east side, it was the border. So technically I always say the people living in Marche were the IRS collector, IRS. RTB: So like the tax collector like that. TF: So I mean that they were knocking the door to ask for taxes and of course. And nobody loves them. RTB: And so when I'm in Italy, I notice that you know, you will use the definite article to refer to the regions. And the reason I'm saying the Marche instead of just Marche is I think it's like a plural region. What's the reason for that? TF: That's very correct, very true. Good insight, because all the name of the region in Italy are a singular. So you say la, which is the article Toscana in the case of Marche is a plural noun. So you say le Marche, which is the article in the plural form. RTB: So the borders. TF: So it's le Marche, where you have la Toscana, il Lazio. RTB: Oh, I wonder why Lazio. TF: La Campania, il Piemonte. ## Italian Region Names: Masculine or Feminine? — 8:27 RTB: Why are some of the regions masculine in some of them? TF: Because the regular rule in Italian is when a noun ends in O. And I think, you know, when you speak the language, sometimes it's difficult to get out the grammar rule. But in any case, ending in O is a masculine, ending in A is feminine. RTB: But Il Piemonte? Oh, sorry, sorry. TF: We are Italian. We have exceptions. RTB: But why is it plural? TF: Because the singular is La Marca. La Marca di Ancona, which is the main city, La Marca of Osimo, which is another city. La Marca di Fano, which is another city. So altogether Le Marche. ## Where Is the Marche on the Map? — 9:20 RTB: So does Marca. I mean, you said it meant border. Does it mean brand like. TF: No, no no no no, this is from the Latin and means like the city. The town. And so altogether Le Marche means that they were at the border. RTB: Where is Marche located on the map. TF: So on the map, I think, I mean, I can show for the video. Yeah. So for those that are just listening is central Italy and is on the East coast, so on, really on the Adriatic Sea for those that they are, you know, on the video, yeah. Maybe you can show where is Marche. North is bordering with Emilia-Romagna on the west, Umbria, and the little bit of Tuscany. The corner is also is Emilia-Romagna, Tuscany, Umbria, Lazio is very small. RTB: And then Abruzzo. TF: And Abruzzo and the on the east side is Adriatic Sea. RTB: So it it borders several different central Italian regions. ## The Geography and Climate of the Marche — 10:34 TF: You can see again, unfortunately for those listening, is a little bit more difficult that the, territory is, like mostly hilly and mountainous, I would say like a 40% hilly, maybe even 50 and good, 20, 30% mountains. There is not really flat. RTB: Land, which is good for wine, right? Typically some elevations and slopes. TF: So what is very interesting, if you look from north to south, you see River. RTB: Okay. Oh yeah. Okay. TF: There are 15 rivers from north to south that they really flow, in a parallel way. Oh, yeah. And, the, the shape of things like a big hair comb. Okay, okay. That to you have like a and this is, you know, very good for the climate though, because of course, everybody knows the water is so, you know, thermo regulation and the so you have this valley and you have the mountains with the breezy and the cooler area. Yeah. And you have the breeze from the ocean. But also what is very important this side, the the Balkan. So Marche usually have a lot of, cool hair from the Balkans and typically the, this part of this coast is a little bit cooler. In the past, the we used to have a little bit more snow. I am from Ancona. You can see that Ancona is really on the water. But the we, we had a lot of snow typically I would like to say like I try to say Modo di Dire in anconetano. RTB: Oh sure. TF: In anconetano. So if anybody from Ancona or nearby is listening, I'm pretty sure that knows. And is a discorre né fadiga. RTB: Discorre né fadiga? TF: Which means, a parlare non è difficile. RTB: It's not difficult to talk. TF: Right, ma a fare, which means a parlare non è difficile, ma ad agire. RTB: My other great. TF: Spesso è molto più difficile. RTB: Special. TF: Meaning that people talk, that's it. But they don't do anything. RTB: Can you say the whole phrase for us. TF: A parlare ne fadiga. RTB: That's everything okay? Yeah. Oh, it's Fadiga like to make you tired. TF: Fatica fatica to make an effort. RTB: Okay. So it doesn't cost you much effort to talk, right? Yes. All right. So we would say in English talk is cheap. ## A Saying in Anconetano Dialect: Talk Is Cheap — 13:00 TF: Oh, yes. Now, you know, talk is. Yeah, sure. Or maybe, "Can che abbaia non mucica". RTB: Cane baia non muccine? TF: Cane che abbaia non morde. RTB: To buy a. Is that to bark. TF: Yes. RTB: So the dog that barks doesn't die? TF: Doesn't bite. Doesn't because, so, means that people person that uh, you know, is very, agitated, screaming most of the time is, you know, cool, innocuous. ## The Natural Wonders of the Marche — 13:36 RTB: Yeah. Those are great. What is the Marche known for besides wine? TF: Besides wine, of course, is, I mean, all the Italy, I would say, is a beautiful country. And all the region are beautiful. What I think is very appealing. You Marche. That is really an off the beaten path. I mean, people from especially from United States, if they think to go to Italy, I don't think that the first four days to visit Marche. But I think that, is very interesting, especially for those, people that they don't want to have a mass tourist place, which is Marche. So in terms of what is a well known, I would say that the in terms of beauty of nature you have mountains, you have hill. And do you have a beautiful beaches, the mountains, especially there is a mountain and it is called Montepilato, sorry, the Lago di Pilato, which is a glass lake, only there is no river. RTB: So it's just still. Yeah. TF: So it's really, really beautiful. Then the other, the Conero area, which is along the coast, and you have some we call Mont, it is more hill because it's 500m that it really go in the water and it's totally green. Then you have a beautiful of formation like, you know, like a small canyon in the South Marche that we call Calanchi. But also we have, the Grotte di Frasassi, which is our caves that are made the wave, you know, for the for like, the water still in that the form. So the the. RTB: Stalactites. TF: Yes. That sound and are the biggest in Europe. Wow. I'm the biggest. Oh, this is a really a destination to see this in terms of, not to, but in terms of, art, I mean, Marche is consist of a small town. Most of them are, middle aged medieval towns. You have, there, on the top of the hill with the castle and the wall around, which are very typical, for example, Ascoli Piceno is one of the most beautiful piazza in Italy, which is called Piazza del Popolo and is really like, made of travertine. You is something very, very beautiful made. RTB: It was on the marble. TF: Marble Travertine. ## Marche's Famous Art, Music, and Travertino Marble — 16:02 RTB: Down. What is Travertino. TF: Is a kind of. It's a white marble. RTB: Oh, wow. Okay, so. TF: There is a kind of marble. I mean, I'm not talking of Ancona because that is my is my home is beautiful. But, you know, when you live in a place, maybe you you obviously so them this is, you know, very interesting. Maria Montessori is from. Okay. RTB: Okay. So that's a famous name about the school educator with the Montessori. TF: School, which in Italy is not a the creation system that is in the primary schools. Don't ask me why, I don't know. Well, I don't know the reason, but the air is very famous around the world. Famous is very families. Also we have like a Gioacchino Rossini, which was a for a composer told me. Now I don't know your musician. Maybe you heard Giovanni Allevi. RTB: No, actually, tell me. TF: Just Google is, is a pianist. RTB: Oh, nice. Nice. I'll check it out. TF: Yeah. Check it out. Giovanni Allevi, which is very popular, actually. Maybe. I don't know if, you know, performing in United States, we have own some pretty famous, sports man, the sports kind of like in the past, the Valentino Rossi for which was a for many. He was the world champion, motorbike. ## Marche's Olympic Champions — 17:16 RTB: Oh fun Gianmarco. TF: Tamberi. Somebody that is a Olympic and world record. Then, high champ Sofia Raffaeli, which is. How do you call rhythmic gymnastics, rhythmic gymnastics. And then she is, Olympic and world champion as well. Oh, and, of course I forgot I was forgetting the most famous Marche we are very famous for. Shoes is probably the most famous district in Italy. ## The Marche: Italy's Secret Shoe Capital — 17:49 And nobody knows. So we have Tod's, Cesare Pacciotti, I would say very high end brand that there is a district that is, a little bit South of Ancona. The is called Civitanova Marche. All that area, which is really one of the most important district shoes and the we call this Liscarpari. ## Where to Start with Marche Wines — 18:16 RTB: So let's talk about the wine. If you had a friend who'd never had a wine from the Marche, what are some of the ones you would suggest that you try first? TF: Okay. We already talk about lacrima, I think is the most distinctive red. I mean, first of all, I suggest a native grape, right? Yes. Because of course, in Marche we also plant, Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, and Syrah or Chardonnay, I would suggest. And a native grape in the red. I think that Lacrima di Morro d'Alba but it's very distinctive is unique. I usually define is a grape that, split the audience 50/50, especially when, not not only, you know, not only Americans, but also Italian, that they never tested this and this wine, they is so different that, sometimes you, you know, there is the parts who say, oh, wow. And some parents are they say, I don't know. RTB: It's some those aromatic floral. Yeah. Flavors can be. TF: Floral. But it's then is definitely in dry a lot of spicy like, cloves, ginger, white pepper. And most of the time is not aged even is from the right. It's from the grape for white. I would say that. RTB: Course. Yeah. TF: Oh, instead of looking. RTB: Verdicchio, one of the great white grapes of Italy. Right. ## The Ancient History of Wine in the Marche — 19:44 Let's talk generally, what is the history with wine in the Marche. TF: In Marche this sound upon them we call the Piceno. So Ascoli Piceno is a the main city in the district which we call Province in Marche. We have the five provinces that were formed. But Don, they are these. They change five, maybe 20 years ago I don't remember so Ascoli Piceno the Piceno people came before the Romans. There are historical details that the wine was used all the time. And it was also, you know, a pretty good quality for of course, for this for the time. It's very old. RTB: So very ancient. Yeah. TF: Ancient. Yeah. ## The Three Wine Zones of the Marche — 20:40 RTB: Wine history. That's so cool. We already spoke about kind of the climatic and geographical features with the rivers and the hills. Maybe you could just give us a mental picture of the different zones and tell us a little bit about the grapes and the wines from each zone, and then explain what those wines taste like again. TF: And we talk about the rivers that, of course, are good for the I mean, are good for all the farming, actually and we talk about the the Balkan stream. Let's think like, kind of three different area, which is one that is in the coast, one is in the middle, and then you have the mountains. And so in the coast, so you have more like a sand, sandy gravel and of course, marine sediment. Okay. RTB: Seashells. Yeah. TF: Yeah, yeah. Not not totally, not totally. But yes. Then you have the, the middle area which is more a clay formation. And then you have the higher higher. It is more like a, do you say like a granitic marly formation. RTB: In terms of DOCs, DOCs, what are some of the most well known or important areas in your opinion? TF: In Marche there is not really area. The DOCG are five and all this. The first DOCG was a one. Probably nobody knows: Vernaccia di Serrapetrona. Then there is Verdicchio, Conero, Offida, and Verdicchio di Matelica, because they split the Verdicchio: Castelli di Jesi, Verdicchio di Matelica, so five DOCG. Before we were in the same disciplinary out of the normal wine as under reserve. Now the Vernaccia di Serrapetrona, Vernaccia, what do you think, is it white or red? RTB: I think this is a trick question and it's a Vernaccia Nera. Is it a sweet Vernaccia Nera? Is it sweet? Is it? TF: It can be a sweet. It's like Lambrusco. Okay. Oh, is that you can. Yeah. The Vernaccia Nera DOCG is a sparkling. There are also still some. It's a long process because first you need to dry. Oh you dry it. Yeah. RTB: Okay. Interesting. TF: You tried the grape and, so you basically have a lot of, processes to, to get the wine. RTB: So you dry the grapes. Yeah. And then you make it into a sparkling wine. TF: Yes. Dry. Then you do the one necking and then you do the sparkling. RTB: So what does that wine taste like? TF: You kind of have the drive sun down below or a little bit sweeter version. The most famous is quacquarini and you think a Lambrusco because it's a red sparkling but more spice, less fruity to be more spicy, which can be like cloves, tobacco and a little bit of wild aroma. The aroma it's different is very different. ## Marche's Five DOCGs, Starting with Vernaccia di Serrapetrona — 23:41 RTB: So when you say the first, you mean the first to be granted the dog. For people who are unaware, Doc and Dog are quality wine regions in Italy. There are other levels which also have good wines in them. But people talk a lot about the doc and the dog, and the dog is a little bit of a stricter level. TF: Which is DOCG basically is a extra guaranteeing for your range. It's a smaller area. You have very specific, rules like position of your DOCG or the ridiculous DOCG is really related to to the aerial exposition. Il porettar term. And then you have all day profile when they, you know, then did you see the strip that you see in the bottle is released by the Chamber of Commerce and basically the producer they have to submit the sample of the wine and the Chamber of Commerce, the taste and make all the test. And if they think they the wine, respect the rules of the the cute street. RTB: So that's the part of it that's this quality guarantee is it's actually tasted by someone who's making sure that the wine fits and has followed all the rules. It's such an interesting process. So we spoke about the one that was granted dog status first, but maybe if we spoke about the more famous, maybe we talk about the red wines and about the white wines. Should we start with their here in general? TF: Like a little like is the grape okay. And the Marche there are two main area. One is Verdicchio dei Castelli di Jesi. So Castelli di Jesi is an area which is much closer to the coast. Okay. Verdicchio di Matelica is the name of the town, which is really, you know, really under the mountains. And so not any case all Matelica very different climate. The reality is it is what we call Coastal in Italian we say is fatter because it is a bigger texture. You have acidity, you have a lot of fruit. You have mineral, tone than which mineral does really mean a lot. But you have a little bit of Flintstone. It's it's rich, it's the white wine, but it has a really a lot going on. ## Verdicchio dei Castelli di Jesi vs. Verdicchio di Matelica — 26:00 The Verdicchio di Matelica, on the other hand, because of this, the cooler climate is a little bit leaner, very elegant, but a little bit leaner. So it's really surprising how the same grape as a different behavior I'm telling about, less than one hour driving probably stuff flow. One note the last part of Castelli di Jesi to Matelica maybe can be even 40 minutes 30 minutes driving and all. This area is the small town. They are all middle aged. So there is the hill, the castle on the top and the with the wall, around. That's why Castelli di Jesi is the main town in the area. That sounds. RTB: Beautiful. So characteristics of vertigo generally flavors. Can you tell people what if you're ordering a dirty queue and you say, oh, this is a very detail. What are some of the characters. TF: This scene sure definitely is the Almond that it has this almost signature, but in a pleasant way. And it's not a bitter that it depends, of course. So from you know how did the production and everything. But we are not talking about any specific brand typically is the, that that you really feel is a big finish for those that the can see usually feel like here. RTB: You feel it on the, on the end, this little bit like not bitter. TF: But nice and some bitter is an all month. That's very pleasant. That's the usually the the typical senior tour of. RTB: Italy and very cute. I feel that the reputation of this grape and the excitement about the wines in the wine industry has been kind of something to talk about in recent years. Could you tell us about that? TF: You know, I believe that Verdicchio for sure is one of the most popular white wine in Italy, because it has, of course, is a wonder, can age. And I really, really invite everybody not to ask for the current vintage. You know, a few months, the 2024 wouldn't be released for the like, wait, as at least 2023, if you find everybody. Oh, I know I one did the new vintages, but this wine really keeps the best after a while because it's rich is a lot. We usually say un rosso vestito da bianco. RTB: The red wine dressed as a white. Yeah, because of the age ability, believe me. TF: Taste the some. You know, especially in the version classical superiority for sure. You you you will be very happy in some way. Unfortunately, the verdict in the past was considered that a kind of cheap wine, like a pizza wine. There was some, marketing, process that the probably the didn't achieve the the result I don't know that was I'm talking about the like a 30 years ago and that was not in the wine industry of course. ## Why Verdicchio Deserves Respect — 29:00 I mean the quality now is better, I would say every wine everywhere because the specific the, the farmer, the one producer pay a lot of curve, care in the vineyards, all the technical details in the cellar. So of course the quality is improved for for every wine. I should say that I think. I don't know, for some reason, at this, ah, you know, consideration to be a cheap wine. RTB: A lot of times I think we get confused by marketing or products that are available or widely sold, and then we associate that, at least in the American market, with the grape. Right. We think since they make a lot of Pinot Grigio is a really good example. They make a lot of very cheap Pinot Grigio. But that doesn't mean that Pinot Grigio always makes wines that taste like that. TF: So like I think is different because the you know, I think that the production in Marche is one tenth of production in Veneto. So it's a very tiny production. That's one of the reason also because Marche is not well known right now for the wine, I mean Veneto, Veneto, the Pinot Grigio, Prosecco Amarone. RTB: Right. TF: And the production is big. That was the past the now in the last I would say ten years likely the cure goes back to be no more is the quality wine. ## Pecorino: The Marche's White Wine Comeback Story — 30:40 RTB: Yeah. So let's talk about the reds from the Marche. TF: I just would like to add the one white wine in my good that is. And believe me, is so popular now. Pecorino. RTB: Pecorino of course. TF: Pecorino is really on fire now. I, I struggle, you know, to present in a video because I like both. But now I seen the people are also curious for the name. RTB: Oh yeah. So tell us about that. TF: Pecorino is a big success in the last 20 years because it was a grape for its characteristic that was almost dismissed. The because it's a it needs a lot of care in the vineyards, but also the yield character is very low. So I think in the '60s they were not interesting in having low production. They were more interesting to a big production. Yes. Luckily there were some people in the Marche, some producer that they, they wanted to have these grape back and they found the some, raw pre-fillossera just, you know, we've all done that with vine, let's say. Yeah. Old vine in a place that is called Acquasanta Terme and is very high, like 600m. And at that point they started, you know, to plant in a little bit lower area. And the very first bottle was, vino da tavola, table wine and then Marche IGT 2001, DOC. And 2011 Offida. So in Marche, Pecorino, if it's under Offida DOCG, is the DOCG because there is also Pecorino from Abruzzo. Now we talk about Marche, Offida DOCG Pecorino. RTB: The progression that you just described I think is a good microcosm of the Italian wine laws. You can see something that these designations are kind of a recognition of quality, progression and quality. TF: What he was important that you don't get, DOCG easily the producer need to be together, right? I mean, DOCG basically 20 years means that there was big interest. And because the wine was, you know, now Marche is more a white wine region. Yeah. With Pecorino and, and there are other white wine, like Bianchello, Ribona, Passerina, many, many white grape. And the we should taste when they have the possibility Garofanata. For me is new. Mai sentito. RTB: Maceratino. TF: Ribona or Maceratino, is the other white grape. There are so many Bianco, Bianchello, it's more called Biancame. And the Bianca is the name of the wine. But, Okay. Right. ## What Does Pecorino Taste Like? (And Why It's Called That) — 33:26 RTB: Oh, wait, but one more thing. Yeah? Tell us about pecorino. What it what it tastes like. TF: Generally, pecorino is, first of all, why pecorino? The name. That's interesting. Pecorino in Italian is sheep in English. So pecorino basically is the cheese that comes from the milk cows, sheep. But I think that the region is very hilly. And, we have, especially in the southern part of the region which where pecorino is located, we have a lot of sheeps during, you know, especially in the summer when the shepherd brings the the sheeps towards the hill because they, they can get feed it that they find much more on cross. It looks like the the sheeps love the grape. There are two option that the sheeps love the grape or the sheep was eating the grape, but we don't really exactly know which is the true. Probably the shepherd because usually sheeps eat the grass. RTB: But there is this vision or this legend at least. Yeah, that the sheep were eating the pecorino grapes. TF: Yeah. So that's the name, pecorino, which is a fun name because people think, oh my God, cheese. It doesn't taste like cheese because it will be a big problem. You know why? I would say there is a lot of, tropicals through it, especially Marche is a kind of aromatic. Manteca is an explosion of flavor. Very rich, very intense, well liked, is a little bit leaner. More leaner then, pecorino, probably this is the reason why. The the reason why is, you know, ice in the last two years, it's, believe me, the sales of pecorino. Hello. RTB: Wow, that's such a good trend to know about. I love pecorino, I love white wines in Italy. With that kind of thing. TF: Because these are characteristic of these, you know, big splash. And you have this white wine that is really wrapping your mouth. RTB: I love pecorino, if you haven't tried one yet, get one. Okay, so now we can talk about the Reds. I think it's. ## Rosso Piceno: The "Perfect Wedding" of Montepulciano and Sangiovese — 35:30 TF: So we talk about the red, the, red grape production, of course. And the highest production in tons is Sangiovese and Montepulciano. I don't know which one is high, but they are the the biggest production. I wouldn't talk about Sangiovese in Marche because a Sangiovese is such a. You need an entire podcast just for Sangiovese. Maybe for Montepulciano as well. RTB: Are the ones typically a blend of Sangiovese and. TF: Yes, yes, yes. So if we talk about the wine, there is a very delicious blend with Montepulciano, Sangiovese and the the name of the wine is Rosso Piceno DOC. I usually called the perfect wedding. RTB: Oh, tell me why. TF: Because the Montepulciano is a little bit. It has power. It has color. But the in terms of flavor, it's a bit rustic. Can be, you know, close in the I would say when you have a 100% Montepulciano like a reserva like something like this, it's the one that needs a little bit to prefer. It's a wine that that needs to get open. Where the Sangiovese of course, is, probably one of the grape that has the elegance and the smoothness. And this fresh or so I think is a perfect wedding for these two different characteristics of these two grapes. Also, Rosso Piceno is is really a great value wine because, you can I have again I, I'm not suggesting maybe some people knows lower for but there are some wine in Rosso Piceno that really you you pay around 18 on the shelf but you think is much more expensive wine, especially if you compared to some Tuscany wine that are much more, you know, popular on Samos. This is my suggest. So for all the, you know, the American people, of course, we are in New York City and you have, usually from first day to Saturday. Almost every one store does in-store testing. Don't be shy. That's how talk about Italian wines, but can be for every other wine taste. You have the fortune that you have the wine from all over the world. Experience in time. So white wine explorer don't stop to Pinot Grigio for Italy. Prosecco and count their good wines. Of course, you can keep on drinking because they are good wines. But there is a an entire world to taste. That's really my passionate the suggest. RTB: I agree completely. ## More Red Wines from the Marche — 38:32 Are there any other red wines besides the one you just mentioned that we should know about? TF: So we mentioned the Lacrima. We mentioned the Vernaccia Nera. RTB: You know, there's something that I've tasted which is a wine made with wine grapes and cherries. ## Visciole: The "Dangerous Wine" Made with Cherries — 38:49 TF: I call it dangerous wine. RTB: Tell us about. TF: This. You you're talking about the visciole. So visciole, first of all, he said the name of the cherry they are wild cherries, they are very small and, very sour. So you don't taste fresh fruit? Usually the farmer, they pick up the cherry, they put in the this big green glass jar and the sugar on the alcohol. Okay, basically you pick up the cherries and you macerate in sugar. You blend that, this sirup I try to keep simple because the process is a little bit more technical. Basically, this visciole is a blend with wine and cherries. Then the the difference is the base wine, because typically at the beginning it was used Sangiovese and in some cases and Montepulciano Sangiovese a blend. But I would say the best the result is a with Lacrima di Morro d'Alba because. So you have all the aromatic profile of Lacrima. Okay. And then, the perfect match with the cherries. So there are not many producers doing a with Lacrima. You usually find the Velenosi, with the Lacrima and, luckily, Lacrima di Morro d'Alba in cherry or, Lucchetti. RTB: There's a shield on the bottle, and it's kind of a little. TF: Box, a little bottle. They are both a little bottle. The bottle are very similar. On the label is a different, RTB: So if you see this visciole, try. TF: Yes. Steel is red. Think that that you need to drink as a white wine. I know that the people say, I don't drink. Dessert wine. I agree, you don't drink dessert wine every day, but this is very different. First of all, the alcohol is low because it's around 14, 14.5 points. Thinks that an Amarone must be higher than 15. It's true. It's sweet because there is sugar, but you have the freshness of the cherry. So the perception is not. Sugar is more, it is more de cherry. First of all, you can even blend, for example, Prosecco and a splash of the visciole. Is a kind of kir royale. RTB: Oh, that's so, so. TF: Good in terms of food pairing is a for me, the perfect pairing is chocolate. There is one dessert to that you usually struggle to match with wine. And these are gelato. Gelato. It's very difficult to to match with wine, but in this case gelato or ice cream with the tragedy you can put a little bit on gelato. You kind of a that's a it's your choice. It's perfect. Cheesecake. RTB: Oh my gosh. Let's go get some of that right now. TF: There are some people that they like a with cheese. I am more on the on the dessert. But I can see like, you know, some cream cheese, some very delicate cheese. Definitely it works. And again, my passionate suggestion is a drink. What you like with the food you like, maybe for dessert is the exception. Dessert needs to be mentioned with the dessert wine. When you go out for dinner and you are with friend. Just as fun. RTB: Yeah. Relax. TF: If you as the wine class is different, but food pairing is very complicated. RTB: Yeah, so you don't have to be complicated about it. Yes. You want to get into it? Fine. You don't have to overthink it or worry that you're not doing it right. Just relax. TF: It's a relaxing time. I mean, dinner, drink with the friend. Yeah. RTB: \[music\] ## Opportunities and Challenges for Marche Wine Today — 42:36 What are some opportunities and challenges that you see for the wines at the Marche today? TF: The big challenge is that, most people don't know Marche is so. So, that's why when I go to sell my wines from Marche. Yeah. With teas and these. Because this is, for me, my very first tool. Of course, won by. And most of the time to know what is Marche. And that's I have to say that the expertise level from what of one buyer is pretty high. And in the United States and I am very sometimes I'm really impressed. But, the first challenge is that people that don't know basically anything about Marche. So that's I think it's very important to talk about the region, the culture, because the wine in Italy is really strict tied to the country, of the region, to the food of the region. I think this is the biggest challenge because, sometimes the producer, tied to the big names, the big brand, which of course they made the great job. Most of them, they produce, you know, beautiful wine, but they can experience experience the region maybe the first time you don't get that because it's very, you know, it's much easier to buy an expensive wine where you had the comfort area that the Wine Spectator is given. 95, 96 and in any case, you you have some kind of solid, psychological background. It's much more difficult to find good wine at the right price. But there are a lot, that's for sure. It's a kind of, scouting job, but but. RTB: That's a great that's a great tip for our our listeners. If you want to get we would say more bang for your buck. Yeah. TF: Marche is really that's the big the big point. It has really, great value wine price a very affordable and the great quality on the other hand diet not popularity and not too well. Not well. RTB: We can change that today with this show. Past episodes if use it everywhere. So how is this region being affected by climate change? ## How Climate Change Is Affecting the Marche — 44:57 TF: I have to say that since the 2020, 2021, 2022 and 2023 is very hot, still. Thanks. The the bank can stream. We still have some benefit that the ease of doing a little bit of thermoregulation. I believe that the farmer everywhere in Italy, they need to consider these, and they are they are already considering this climate change for example, I remember that in 2021, I visited Calabria, and it was very hot here. And the food that all the vineyards were totally \[unclear\] and everything was pretty green. And they say, why say you're we're used to the hot climate. The so they have much more leaves. Hunger is normal. Maybe the problem was not even to central Italy, but the more in the north they had these, you know, care. But the. I'm pretty sure that you already, you know, arrange range, fix the problem in the vineyards. RTB: Meaning that if there's a lot of sun, you might leave more green leaves to shade the grapes so they don't get sunburned. Maybe you need to learn from the South how to adjust. TF: I am not a viticulture, but only a little. Now you have all the hybrid grapes, but this is very technical. It should give more acidity, but it is very technical. Working in the vineyards probably is like a to to give them more coverage with the leaves. See you have more protection. ## What Else Should You Know About the Marche? — 46:29 RTB: So is there anything else you want the world to know about the Marche okay. TF: So when you visit Italy first you can't miss Rome. Please visit Rome. After Rome, consider Marche, you have a 20 region. Of course I'm not say, of course. Veneto is beautiful. I mean, all the region are beautiful. I don't know where you an ugly place. You need to leave. Everywhere is beautiful. But you know, consider this region. It's not only Marche. There are other regions that are not the well-known. Like Tuscany, Veneto, Sicily, Piedmont, now Puglia. RTB: I have not been to the Marche, but I would love to visit. I want to see that glass lake. I want to get some shoes. I want to drink some Vernaccia di Serrapetrona. TF: And Garofanata. RTB: Garofanata. So is that a red or it's a white? TF: It's a white. RTB: It's a white. Okay. Tiziana, how can people get in touch with you if there's someone here in New York where you're working as a wine expert and you promote these grapes, if someone from an importer or in the education realm wants to get in touch with you and work with you, how can people find you and know about you on Instagram? ## Connect with Tiziana Forni — 47:40 TF: Is a Tiziana Forni where you can share my email, which is tiziana.forni@gmail.com. So I am LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook. RTB: So if you want to work with Tiziana you know how to get in touch. I can help connect you. She's here in New York doing important work wine, education, consulting, etc. I. TF: Need to find more Italian wine specialist. RTB: This Italian wine specialist is available in New York if you need one. And I appreciate you coming on the show today. It was wonderful to speak with you. TF: Thank you so much, Rose. ## Tiziana's Secret Voice-Acting Role — 48:20 RTB: Guys. So fun fact too. You may recognize Tiziana's voice because Tiziana was the voice actor for the one episode that we did in translation season one, episode eight and nine, I did an interview with Lindsay Szper, which was a very important interview linguistically for me. We transcribed, translated, and recreated the episode with a voice actor, and after that. TF: That was a tough. RTB: Word. That was the the one time we did that where someone just spoke English, we made it available in Italian. So if you go to the Italian podcast, you can hear Tiziana's voice, check that out. And if you didn't know, you can listen to this podcast in Italian, Modo di Bere Italiano. Or if you're listening to this on YouTube Modo di Bere podcast, you can go to the Italian playlist and see those videos could be a language learning tool. ## Outro — 48:50 So if you use the podcast as a language learning tool, please let me know. I want to hear how that's working for you. To our listeners, thank you. Wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and never stop learning. Support us on Patreon! Grab the newsletter at Modo di Bere.com and subscribe to the YouTube channel at Modo di Bere to watch the travel show Modo di Bere TV. Music for the show was composed by Ersilia. Prosperi for the band Ou. Purchase their music at the link in the notes. \[music\] *\[NOTE: We are no longer using Patreon! Become a member* [*right here*](https://www.mododibere.com/#/portal/) *to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\]* Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Ou's New Album "Uranio" ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e13-ou-uranio/) [ Italian Slang & American Cheese ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e11-giulia-alvarez-katz/) ### Water Rots the Boat Poles URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/water-rots-the-boat-poles/ Last updated: 2026-08-20T20:53:16.000Z *Read part one of this travel story,* [*"Eating Raw Shrimp in Venice."*](https://www.mododibere.com/eating-raw-shrimp-in-venice/) *Listen to the author read this essay aloud on* [*Season 2, Episode 12*](https://www.mododibere.com/content/files/2026/08/venice-spritz-magic.html) *of the Modo di Bere Podcast.* --- The covid-stricken world had just begun to open up when I got called for a wine gig in Italy. After surviving sirens and morgue trucks, American mask fights, shuttered rock clubs and the hell of remote school, springtime in Italy sounded so nice that I spent weeks before the trip mildly assuming I’d die in a car crash. I didn’t die, so on the last day of my trip, my reward was seeing Venice. I rolled my red suitcase back and forth, gazing at the blue dot on my phone as if it would help me find my hotel. “What should I do in Venice?” I’d asked winemaker Paola Ferraro of[ **Bele Castel**](https://www.blogger.com/blog/post/edit/6022860258000262648/9034426434073797625?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=you-re-missing-out-on-this-classic-spritz&%5Fbhlid=105d446b1046e86228eadfa965c487b5255f755a#), over a glass of Asolo Prosecco so replete with terroir there’s a story in the shadow the liquid would cast on a wine barrel turned on its side for a table. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Barca-Cannaregio.jpg) **A colorful boat in the Cannaregio sestiere of Venice* I’m not kidding: that’s what they call a glass of wine in Veneto. *L’ombra,* shadow. Venetian wine sellers of yore kept their wines cool in the shade by scooching their prosecco stands around the San Marco bell tower as if it were a sundial. “In Venice?” Paola’d answered: “Get lost. Walk. Take in all the sounds. Forget yourself.” She said I’d love the local language there. I asked her what the words or accent sounded like. “You’ll know it when you hear it” was all she would say. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Paola-Bele-Casel.jpg) **Paola Ferraro of* [**Bele Casel*](https://www.belecasel.com/en/?ref=mododibere.com)**, educating me about differences in local wine terms in Asolo DOCG, where her family makes prosecco that practically bursts with local character* I wanted to take Paola’s advice, but I hadn’t planned on getting lost before checking into my hotel. Venice is not a blue dot sort of place. I’d have to rely on how my father taught me to travel: forget the internet, hit whatever watering hole had evolved from the bell tower scene, and make friends–as soon as I dropped off the suitcase. I’d passed three or four times through the same corridor when a panhandler pointed a finger over his shoulder and intoned, “Là.” He was right. The gate *was* there. I rolled my stuff into the[ **Ca’ Nigra Lagoon Resort Hotel**](https://www.blogger.com/blog/post/edit/6022860258000262648/9034426434073797625?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=you-re-missing-out-on-this-classic-spritz&%5Fbhlid=9100bac0cc96de44efc718bf0b31dc080a76d0db#). At the front desk, I told Narciso of the mischievous goatee that I knew “l’ombra” and desired more words like it. He let slip which sestiere he and his friends frequent after work. Cannaregio is the northernmost of the districts described by the special Italian word for “neighborhood” that lets you know that there are six of them. I wouldn’t come close to exploring all six zones in just one day, but I’d go out with a local saying from Narciso that I could use to break the ice. *L’acqua marcise i pali.* Narciso wrote it down. He told me it means “Water rots the boat poles,” and that it’s used to admonish anyone who requests a drink of water instead of something stronger. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Narciso.jpg) **Narciso teaching me “L’acqua marcise i pali.”* Selling wine in New York City introduced me to people from all over Italy. Their linguistic diversity is as vast and varied as the native grapes that drew me to Italian wine. I collected the vine names like baseball cards—Lambrusco di Sorbara, Malvasia di Lipari, Pallagrello Bianco. The deeper I got into the grapes, the more sayings in dialect came my way. I started noticing idioms that express the same idea with local variations in language, agricultural products, and animals. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Dialect-Eggplant.jpg) **Eggplant in italian is “melanzane.” The spelling here reflects the Venetian accent* Mere days before Venice, high on surviving my first time driving in Italy, I’d felt my definite belief that it’s way too hard to become a wine writer dissolve into the modest idea that I should start a blog or something. I could bring in the language stuff…. Then I realized it was called Modo di Bere, *way of drinking,* a pun on the Italian word for a saying, *modo di dire.* I sat up behind the steering wheel and thought, *That’s a good idea.* It was time to start having a little fun. In other words, *Water’s bad for you: drink wine.* Narciso’s local example of what water destroys—poles for tying up gondolas!—was the [third such phrase I’d collected ](https://www.mododibere.com/content/files/2026/08/modo-di-bere.html)during my visit to Veneto and Friuli-Venezia Giulia. The first, in Italian Italian, *L’acqua fa ruggine,* means “Water makes rust.” The second, in a Friulian dialect, sounded like *L’agghe vai buine per croz:* “Water is for frogs.” Narciso gave me a tour of the boat dock, explaining that it’s luxurious to have one and that it’s called a “cabana.” We toured the hotel, Narciso dishing 17th century gossip about ambassadors and courtesans. My red rolling suitcase matched the walls of my room. I photographed the colorful glass chandelier, marveled a little at the private veranda, and went back out in search of the covid test I’d need to re-enter the States. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Selfie-at-a-Ca-Nigra--a-wonderful-Venetian-hotel.jpg) [**Selfie at the Ca’ Nigra Lagoon Resort Hotel*](https://www.hotelcanigra.com/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=you-re-missing-out-on-this-classic-spritz&%5Fbhlid=54169c6e25f20c54ab6d22c65a2bf271b8a948b3) The pharmacy was closed for lunch. All right, I’d eat, too. I approached a tiny bar protruding from a window. A waitress came out the door and simply said, “No.” I didn’t understand what I’d done wrong, only ducked like a dog into a bigger restaurant that seemed open, if entirely empty. Its sign advertised gluten free pizza. A young waiter led me to the garden, which was still encased in plastic, like it did not believe the spring was here to stay. I was joined in the garden by a group of apparent mechanics. They sat with their boiler suits peeled down at the waist, like half-opened bananas. The mechanics faced each other at a long table across the aisle to my right. My table faced the next garden over, which was boldly open to the air. There sat an older man in profile, sunning himself like a cat. He moved only to twitch his cheeks, crack his craggy fingers, sip his white wine, or let out a few measures of stentorian coughing. The oldest mechanic either knew the guy or found the cough as striking as I did. He’d imitate the sound to his buddies after each round of catarrh: “Cough cough cough cough cough.” “You’ll know it when you hear it,” Paola had said of the Venetian dialect. The mechanics’ conversation started to sound like “blah blah blah” *mona,* “blah blah blah” *mona.* Aha! I’d been in Veneto long enough to pick up the regional word for “pussy.” If you learn Italian in a restaurant, you start with one part rude words, one part food words, and one part dishes. “Cazzo.” “Bistecca.” “Coltello.” *Dick. Steak. Knife.* Either the mechanics’ conversation concerned explicit subjects, or they were using “mona” the way many Italians, in casual contexts, use “cazzo.” Days into learning restaurant Italian, I’d remarked to my colleagues that the sound of them talking to each other was like *blah blah blah* "cazzo," *blah blah blah "*cazzo*."* “It’s the same for you guys and *fuck,*” my colleague had replied. I’d spend the next several years picking up local slang from every Italian I met, and the cocks would far outnumber the vulvas. Either the mechanics’ frequent *monas* were a regional specialty, or my instructors had been holding out on me when it came to the emphatic feminine. The local language had found me. It was time to make friends. I had liquid courage in the form of an Aperol spritz. I’m kidding: Aperol is not so alcoholic, perfect for day drinking, but I’d struggled with my sudden desire to order one for lunch. The Italians I’d met ordered spritzes in the late afternoon *only*. They take this gustatory time of day stuff so seriously. Typical Americans ignore them, consuming both cappuccinos and spritzes for brunch. As an obedient student of Italian customs, I try to “when-in-Rome,” but I wasn’t in Rome, and I wanted a spritz. When I was a bartender, I made so many damned spritzes, and I advised all the customers who complained of ennui to go on vacation alone. It was my turn to travel. I ordered that spritz. In a matter of hours, I’d learn Venice is a magical place where you drink nothing but spritzes, day and night, made not only from Aperol but from the local red spirit, [**Select**](https://selectaperitivo.com/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=you-re-missing-out-on-this-classic-spritz&%5Fbhlid=e6f95d9751ba2b554966739a2db8cbd6f216e8a1). A spritz with Select is more bitter than Aperol, less sweet than Campari, and they throw in an olive as often as an orange. Despite my ignorance, Venetian spritz magic had already done its work on me. Full of prosecco and vivid herbaceous liqueur, I strode over to *gli operai* and sat down at their table’s open seat. “Hello,” I said in Italian. “I am interested in local language. “For instance,” I told them, “I have learned *L’acqua marcise i pa’i’.*” Introductions turned into jokes about ancient rivalries I could not begin to fathom, the man from a nearby city accused, I think, of eating cats. I decided I must have misheard. Riccardo, the oldest, the cough imitator, he of the white mustache and the sweater with thick horizontal stripes, became even more animated when I mentioned the boat poles, *pali*. Narciso had already informed me that the local accent drops the central “l” sound, but Riccardo held up his hand in a sort of OK sign, the Italian gesture for “listen up, I am teaching you something.” ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Riccardo.jpg) **Riccardo demonstrating the Italian gesture for “listen, I am teaching you something”* He plunked this hand shape through the air, emphasizing each syllable like a note on a stave: “L’acqua.” “Marsise.” “I pai.” Turns out the second word was not quite *mar-chee-say,* Italian for “rot.” Riccardo insisted I repeat a *sss*, with perhaps a hint of *sh* : *mar see shay.* A freshly minted blogger, I was filming Riccardo with my phone. An off-camera mechanic pointed a finger into the frame and prompted Riccardo to teach me the second half of the saying. I’d learned so many versions of the water’s-bad-for-you saying without ever encountering a second half! “And the wine?” the man asked, in Italian. “The wine,” Riccardo answered, “Makes songs.” I knew I’d captured the ur recording of my folkloric project even as I’d just begun. Stuffed with local language and sad pizza, I receded to my own tavolino. The mechanics paid up and left me alone. I stared at the old cat in the next garden over through the see-through plastic walls. He twitched his cheek. *L’acqua marsise i pai,* I thought. *Il vin fa cantar,* was the answer. Italy—Venice—had given me permission not only to enjoy myself, but to sing. I sat there in the garden with my empty spritz and wept. --- *Images courtesy of the author* ### ▷S3E11 Italian Slang and American Cheese with Giulia Álvarez-Katz (BONUS EPISODE) URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e11-giulia-alvarez-katz/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T04:13:50.000Z "There's always going to be people writing about New York. Always. Somebody's done it better before somebody will do it better again." _This post is for paying subscribers only._ ### ▷S3E4 "La donna può": Angela e Marianna Velenosi URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s3e4-angela-e-marianna-velenosi/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:10:02.000Z Angela e Marianna Velenosi discutono i vini delle Marche e dell'Abruzzo, parlando dei vitigni come Verdicchio, Pecorino e Trebbiano, Montepulciano e Lacrima. Ci raccontano alcuni detti locali dell'Abruzzo, da cui proviene Angela, e delle Marche, dove è cresciuta sua figlia Marianna, e scopri perché Marianna descrive le Marche come "un gioiello che non è stato ancora scoperto" in termini di turismo. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/angela-and-marianna-velenosi-format-original.jpg) Angela si mise in proprio per costruire la sua azienda vinicola negli anni '80, nonostante la sua famiglia all'epoca non capisse i suoi obiettivi. Lei e la figlia Marianna raccontano come hanno deciso di lavorare insieme, insieme al fratello di Marianna, per continuare a rappresentare i territori delle Marche e dell'Abruzzo con i vini della loro famiglia. [Ascolta in inglese / Listen in English](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-en/s3e10/velenosi-wines) Scopri di più sui vini della famiglia Velenosi su [velenosivini.com/](https://velenosivini.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Seguiteli su Instagram all'indirizzo [instagram.com/velenosivini/](https://www.instagram.com/velenosivini/?ref=mododibere.com) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)La donna può, deve solo essere lei a volerlo. Oggi il vino offre alle donne tante opportunità, c 'è spazio, la cosa bella è che in Italia tante donne oggi sono titolari di aziende vinicole e questo è il miracolo, la donna può. (upbeat music) Benvenuti a Moro di Bere Italiano, il podcast sulle bevande e sui detti locali. Sono così entusiasta di avere nello show Angela Pioti Velenossi e sua figlia Mariana, viti cottrici che hanno viti nelle regioni italiane delle Marche e della Bruzzo. Prima di iniziare l 'intervista vorrò farti sapere che Modo di Bere italiano è un podcast sopportato dagli ascoltatori. Visita patreon .com /mododibere per sostenere il mio lavoro, condividono storie sulla cultura locale attraverso bevande e dialetto. Angela ha avviato la propria azienda di famiglia nel 1984 con solo due vini e nove etare di vignetto. Ora i suoi vini sono conosciuti in tutto il mondo, è stata presidente di un consortio vinicolo nelle Marche e ora ha anche una linea di vini nella regione Abruzzo e è entrata in azienda la figlia Mariana. Angela, Mariana, benvenute. Grazie, grazie. Sono entusiasta di parlarvi oggi delle uve locali, delle Marche e della Bruzzo, ma questo è anche lo spettacolo sui detti locali. Mariana, quando ci siamo incontrati questa settimana ad un wine lunch, i tuoi vini sono deliziossi. Mi ha insegnato un detto sulla città di Ascoli Piceno? Sì, è corretto. Allora, abbiamo un detto ad Ascoli Piceno che fa quando Ascoli era Ascoli, a Roma c 'erano i pascoli. Perché Ascoli è una città molto antica, il popolo dei Piceni è un popolo che ha abitato in quelle zone prima dei romani. Infatti, la città di Ascoli è stata costruita nel mille a .C., quindi molto precedente all 'imperro romano e di conseguenza con questo detto noi scherziamo un po' sulle nostre origini per indicare proprio che il luogo in cui viviamo quindi Ascoli Piceno il Piceno in generale è un luogo ricco di tradizioni ricco di storia ma in realtà in pochi conoscono perché è una parte di Italia ancora non scoperta dal turismo soprattutto. Angela Mariana mi ha detto che hai molti modi di dire che cosa viene realmente? È meglio un morto dentro casa che un marchigiano dietro la porta. Oddio, perché? C 'è stata sempre questa familiarità tra Ascoli Piceno e Roma. Già Mariana ha raccontato un detto quando Ascoli era Ascoli, a Roma c 'erano i Pascoli, ma noi siamo sempre stati un popolo molto friendly, molto amico dei Roma e a Roma c 'era il vaticano, c 'era il papa e quando il papa doveva riscuotere le tasse noi i marchigiani eravamo degli esattori, eravamo quelli che andavano a riscuotere le tasse per il papa e quindi quando si presentava un marchigiano, voleva dire pagare, ma anche gli abruzzesi sono un popolo che hanno tante tradizioni e degli abruzzessi si ricorda la capa tosta, la testa dura perché è un popolo che principalmente è vissuto nella montagna e come tutti i montanari sono un popolo molto duro. Ah, Un detto di più, quando ci abbiamo incontrati, mi hai insegnato altro della lana. Povera quella pecora, qui pesava la lana. Perché quando tu esci, quando vai fuori e non porti una giacca e fuori fa freddo, allora dici "povera quella pecora" che non aveva più la lana, la lana è il pelo della pecora. Quindi se la pecora si toglie il pelo, poi sentireà freddo. Angela, molte delle storie che sento in Italia riguardano una famiglia di produttori divino di molte generazioni, ma tu hai avviato la tua azienda da zero negli anni o tanto. Come è stato per te? Beh è stata un 'avventura, un 'avventura perché quando io ho iniziato avevo vent 'anni, mio marito eravamo appena sposati, ne aveva 25, eravamo due ragazzi giovani, eravamo due ragazzi pieni di sogni, eravamo senza capitali senza soldi, eravamo in un territorio sicuramente non famoso. Due doc non famose, Rosso Piceno e Falerrio. Rosso Piceno è una docca bacca rossa, Falerrio una docca bacca bianca. Abbiamo iniziato come donki -shotte contro i mulini avvento. Quindi abbiamo iniziato Come Forest Camp, no? Correndo, abbiamo corso. Ci siamo persi durante la corsa, tante cose, la crescita dei nostri figli, vederli le loro attività sportive, la loro vita e una mattina ci siamo svegliati, ci siamo guardati indietro e da zero viviamo un 'azienda famosa nelle Marche in Italia, un 'azienda con 160 ettari di proprietà, un 'azienda che esporta il vino in 52 -53 paesi, un 'azienda che produce 2 .5 milioni di bottiglie. Brava, bravissima. Mariana mi ha detto una storia del nonno al fine vedere alla mamma e nel news e come è la storia. Come stava dicendo appunto la mamma, diciamo che la famiglia non ha mai supportato né in termini economici, né in termini appunto di risorse, questa folle attività dei miei genitori. E mio nonno era arrivato al punto tale di non parlare più a mia mamma perché non capiva quello che lei stesse facendo, non capiva il perché viaggiasse per il mondo sempre con la valigia alla mano e lasciasse due figli piccoli a casa. Se pensiamo che 40 anni fa pergiunta la mentalità della campagna, perché parliamo di un, diciamo, un posto principalmente rurale fatto di campagna, non era accettabile che una donna potesse lasciare i figli a casa e viaggiare per il proprio lavoro e quindi per tanti anni mio nonno non ha parlato con mia mamma fino a che un giorno non ha visto un 'intervista di mia mamma alla telegiornale al TG1 che è il telegiornale nazionale, un 'intervista che era stata fatta poi durante il VIN ITALI che è la fiera più importante in Italia per il vino italiano e l 'è scritto un messaggio, messaggio ovviamente che mia ma ricevete solo nel momento in cui atterrò in Australia, quindi con un giorno di distanza e da lì diciamo hanno ripreso appunto i rapporti, da lì mio non ho capito che quello che mia mamma stava facendo non era per sé stessa, ma era per costruire qualcosa in più, non solo per un territorio che ne aveva bisogno, un territorio ancora inesplorato, ma anche per la famiglia stessa. Sì, e come va per te come bambina e non ha famiglia al divino? Devo dire, nonostante la mamma non l 'abbiamo mai vissuta tanto, in realtà ci ha mostrato l 'esempio. Quindi sì, sicuramente non è stata la mamma che ci aiutava a fare compiti a scuola o che avveniva gli incontri con i professori, però eravamo consapevoli che lo stava facendo anche per noi. Quindi noi siamo tipo in vigna, siamo cresciuti in cantina, io e mio fratello, mentre gli altri bambini andavano a giocare al parco noi giocavamo in vigna e passavamo l 'estate in cantina, certo non potevamo aiutare, però ci piaceva restare lì e guardare la produzione. Infatti siamo cresciuti tutti e due con questa idea di lavorare nel mondo del vino. All 'inizio non pensavamo di lavorare per l 'azienda familiare, per la cantina di famiglia e abbiamo fatto due carriere diverse. Io ho lavorato, ho studiato economia e poi ho lavorato per un gruppo francese, il Castel Group, ho lavorato tre anni Svizzera per loro e mentre mio fratello ha fatto una carriera accademica perché si è laureato in enologia, poi ha fatto un dottorato di ricerca sempre in elologia, soprattutto specializzandosi sui lieviti e ha iniziato a lavorare con il centro di ricerche pubblico per lo studio sull 'enologia, facendo anche delle ricerche con l 'università di La Porcogna in Francia. Quindi in realtà i nostri genitori, soprattutto la mamma, pensavano che non volessimo rientrare in azienda e neanche noi inizialmente avevamo dato questo input, questo segnale di voler rientrare. Poi un giorno ero a Ginevra e ho realizzato che mi mancava qualcosa nella mia vita, nonostante io ero molto felice del mio lavoro, ero molto felice di quello che stavo facendo, però mi mancava casa. Quindi chiamai la mamma e le disse "ma mamma cosa ne pensi se torno e proviamo a lavorare insieme?" Penso sia svenuta, perché ha avuto un tempo di reazione di circa 5 -10 minuti e poi dopo una lunga negoziazione sono rientrata a lavorare per la cantina di famiglia e dopo pochi mesi mi ha raggiunto anche mio fratello, quindi oggi la famiglia è riunita e lavoriamo insieme. Brave, brave per lavorare insieme oggi. Allora paliamo un po' dalle uve, dei vini del Regione. Sì, la nostra regione ci sono due importanti e famosi vitigni a Bacca Bianca. Sicuramente il verdicchio, un vitigno che ha superato la fama nel mondo. Verdicchio è un vitigno che nel suo nome ha già il suo DNA, perché verdicchio viene da verde e questo non è tanto dadato dal colore quanto dal profumo che questo vino ha dopo la vinificazione, quindi queste note verdi che vanno dall 'erba tagliata alla pomodoro verde, al peperone verde, ma soprattutto la sua peculiarità, la sua unicità e che dopo aver bevuto alla fine della degustazione rimane leggermente amaro, questa mandorlamara che esce fuori dopo la degustazione. Ma oggi sicuramente il pecorino è il vitigno più attenzionato che sta vivendo un suo momento molto importante, perché il pecorino è un vitigno più più internazionale, sempre a Bacca Bianca, è un vitigno che nel sedudiene ha i profumi della frutta esotica, quindi della pesca, ananas, frutto della passione ed è quello che oggi un certo tipo di clientela di degustatori stanno guardando, questi vini che abbiamo, questi perfumi molto fruttati con frutta intensa. Sicuramente entrambi sia il verdicchio che il pecorino, sono vini con una ottima mineralità, buona acidità e quindi sono vini che hai voglia di bere, vini che sanno accompagnare qualsiasi tipo di cibo, antipasto, primi, secondi, sono vini che hanno bellissime sfaccettature. Anche per apertivo durante l 'intervista in inglese abbiamo parlato della lacrima. Sì, la lacrima è un vino che ognuno, una volta nella vita, deve assaggiare. È una piccolissima denominazione, quando c 'è la nata, quando c 'è la vendemmia ottima, tutti i produttori della denominazione dell 'area possono produrre un milione di bottiglie. Considerate quanto è grande il mondo, quindi un milione di bottiglie è veramente piccola come produzione. L 'acrima è un vino unico, è un vino che non esiste al mondo, un vitigno con queste caratteristiche. L 'acrima è viola, viola nel colore, viola al naso, viola nel profumo, rosa nel profumo. Se tu facessi una degustazione di l 'acrima con gli occhi vendati, con gli occhi chiusi, tu metti il naso nel bicchiere e senti profumo di floreale, viola, rosa, geranio, lices e tu pensi "ah, è un vino a bacca bianca", al naso, poi lo assaggi, ma quando lo assaggi, quando fai il test, ti accorgi che è acido, tannico e quindi sei sorpreso. Spesso quando noi facciamo le degustazioni, i clienti, le persone che lo assaggiano fanno "Wow, what is this? Che cos 'è questo?" E io amo chiamare la lacrima il vino "Wow". Per i ditigni più famosi, rossi, sì, in le marche e anche San Giovese. Che possiamo dire di Montepulciano? Sicuramente il Montepulciano è la doc Abacca rossa più grande d 'Italia, insieme col chianti, il vitigno Abacca rossa che caratterizza il centro est. Quando si parla di Montepulciano si parla di un vitigno che è molto selvatico, è molto verde nel suo DNA, è difficile da domesticare, è un animale selvatico. Il monte pulciano è un diamante che ha però tante sfaccettature, a seconda di come coltivi la vigna, a seconda di come vinifichi, a seconda dell 'invecchiamento tu puoi ottenere vini differenti, con i suoi milioni di ettoilitri. Oggi come Montepulciano tu puoi trovare dei vini facili da bere tutti i giorni, giusto prezzo, puoi trovare dei premium, quindi dei vini che si accompagnano una cucina di qualità e puoi trovare come verso sera di velenosi, roggio di velenosi, vini che sono le ammiraglie, le flagship, non solo per la Belenosi, ma anche per l 'Italia intera. Vedo che il mercato qui, in Stati Uniti, c 'è un buon, come si dice, recognition, riconosciuto, questo vino. Sì, diciamo che il Montepulciano è uno dei vittini più conosciuti, dell 'Italia in generale, quindi anche sul mercato americano c 'è grande spazio e grande attenzione ai vini prodotti da 100 % monte pulciano. Come diceva bene la mamma, il monte pulciano ha tante sfaccettature quindi si può trovare dal monte pulciano più di facile beva che hanno dei prezzi molto accessibili fino ai vini premium che sono dei vini che già vanno sui 150 /200 /300 dollari quindi si può spaziare molto con il monte pulciano. Bisognerebbe sicuramente educare il consumatore a vedere il monte pulciano non solo come un vino da tutti i giorni ma anche come un grande vino e questo è quello che noi proviamo a fare con il verso sera che è un 100 % con l 'ineteramane di Ocg, ad esempio, quindi mostrare il potenziale di affinamento, il potenziale di longevità di questo vidigno. Puoi parlare un po' del tuo lavoro con il consorzio? È stata una bellissima esperienza. Per tanto tempo io ho pensato a Belenosi e per me il piceno era Belenosi. Quando sono diventata presidente ho cambiato totalmente il mio modo di pensare. E non ho più visto velenosi nel piceno ma ho visto tutti i produttori che insieme formano il piceno. Quindi la forza del piceno è quando tutti i produttori percorrono la stessa strada hanno gli stessi obiettivi e raggiungono le stesse finalità. È stato bello perché per me, perché ho messo il mio sapere, ho messo la conoscenza al servizio degli altri produttori. Come ti senti di questo momento? Come è una donna nel passato e adesso come ti sente il momento per le donne in finito? Io non mi sono mai sentita donna, nel senso che non ho mai sfruttato e non ho mai usato il mio essere donna. Io ho sempre pensato che per poter avere successo nel lavoro, nella vita, devi studiare, ti devi impegnare, devi mettere passione. L 'essere donna in realtà però mi ha aiutato, perché la donna ha la possibilità di essere multitasking. La donna sa essere madre, la donna sa essere imprenditrice, la donna sa essere amante, sa essere moglie e la caratteristica delle donne. La donna può. La donna può tutto. Deve solo essere lei a volerlo. E oggi il vino offre alle donne tante opportunità, come enologa, come produttrice di uve, come vignaiola, come imprenditrice, come marketing, pubblicità, c 'è spazio. La cosa bella è che in Italia tante donne oggi sono titolari di aziende vinicole e questo è il miracolo. La donna può. Bravo, brava. La farina del tuo sacco. Farina del mio sacco. Sì, sì. Un miracolo, forse, ma anche il lavoro. Volontà. Sì, sì. E grazie, grazie per questo lavoro. Grazie per aver dato voce alle Marche, grazie per aver dato voce ai miei vini, grazie per aver dato la voce a me e Marianna, grazie perché questa è molto, un 'intervista molto bella, diversa, entra nel cuore delle persone e di chi l 'ascolta. Grazie a voi, grazie mille per essere con me durante un settimane molto busy. Abbiamo un sito web che è velenosivini .com e dove abbiamo tutti i nostri vini che sono spiegati anche tramite dei video che abbiamo registrato io e la mamma, quindi ci tenevamo a essere presenti personalmente anche sul sito e dare sempre qualche informazione in più su tutti i nostri vini. Siamo anche molto attive sui social, particolarmente la mamma, su Facebook e Instagram. Siamo su YouTube, dove abbiamo anche molte presentazioni, immagini dei vigneti, immagini della cantina e poi niente, abbiamo la punto vendita che è sempre aperto e quindi speriamo di avervi soprattutto in cantina per scoprire il nostro bellissimo territorio. ¡Suscríbete al canal de YouTube Moro Dibere para guardar el espectáculo de viajo Moro Dibere TV! La música está tata composta de "Ersilia Prosperi" para el grupo Ou. La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto e registrato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Montato da [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com). [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S3E3 New York è il posto per Giulia Àlvarez-Katz URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s3e3-giulia-alvarez-katz/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:11:20.000Z Da bambina fino ad oggi, il mondo gastronomico multiculturale di New York è stato il luogo di interesse per la scrittrice gastronomica Giulia Àlvarez-Katz. RTB rispolvera le sue abilità da barista con un cocktail personalizzato: Il Third Place, in onore della sua serie di video evidenziando il luoghi in cui in newyorkesi bighellonano, sparano cazzate, e si riuniscono. RT e Giulia discutono l'eventuale processo per diventare newyorkese; il suo cibo d'asporto preferito, le rotture al bar, vergogna dell'accento, il cocktail ufficiale-ma-anche-no di New York; com'è per i figli d'immigrati imparare le lingue dei loro antenati—oppure no; quale bevanda si dovrebbe abbinare con le 'zebra cakes' acquistate nelle 'bodeghe' in città... e quali liquidi non si dovrebbero mai, per nessun motivo, portare in metropolitana. Scopri di più sul lavoro di Giulia sul suo sito web: [giulia-ak.com](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) *Diversi mesi dopo aver registrato questo episodio, Giulia è entrata a far parte del team di Modo di Bere come podcast editor.* [Ascolta in inglese / Listen in English](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-en/s2e10/giulia-alvarez-katz-third-place) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)una storia del New York. Io non sarò mai l 'unica. Amo questa città, ma non sarò mai l 'unica. È un 'amore che posso condividere con non solo anche, sai, 10 persone, 20 persone, 100 persone, ma miliardi di persone, gente che non c 'è mai stata, l 'amano come l 'amò And that's crazy. (upbeat music) (speaking in foreign language) Sono super emozionata per l 'intervista di oggi e non solo perché o in cartel in mano. Prima di iniziare l 'intervista, voglio ricordarti che questo è uno show soportato dagli ascoltatori e se desideri diventare uno di questi sostenitori, puoi dedicare un momento a visitare patreon .com /mododibere, iscriverti come sostenitore e sploca contenuti esclusiva ed educativa. Dato che la mia ospite oggi è un fenomeno di social media, dovrei anche dirti che puoi seguire Mododibere su Instagram, YouTube, and Tik Tok. Giulia Alvarez Katz e una scrittrice, produtrice e scrittrice gastronomica con una laurea in scienze alimentari e una passione per la cultura locale di New York City e tutto il mondo. Arecentamente concluso una serie di 30 video per il blog Righteous Eats sul tema dei terzi posti dei New Yorkesi. Giulia, benvenuta. Grazie. Cosa è un terzo posto? Ok, un terzo posto è un posto che dove, sai, frequenti passi il tempo però non è casa tua e non è il tuo lavoro, così è tipo il è un ristorante, il parco, la biblioteca, il posto dove vai per passare il tempo in un modo facile e casuale, però non casa tua, non il lavoro. Non devi, non sei forzato di stargli, è la scelta. Chi ha chiamato questo argomento? La persona che ha creato il termine third places, terzi posti, era un sociologo americano, credo, che ne parlava nel contesto delle città americane. È il fatto che di terzi posti nelle città americane non ne abbiamo un sacco. Però in Europa ne avete? E in quale forma hai creato in questi video? Così in questi video avevo un focus sui ristoranti perché righteous eats si parla di mangiare, abbiamo... siamo stati a questi vari ristoranti e... beh, in teoria i terzi posti possono essere qualunque posto, ma i ristoranti per me sono extra interessanti perché c 'è anche l 'elemento culturale e etnico del cibo, così un ristorante Senegalese, per esempio, è un terzo posto più che altro per la gente senegalese che mangia il ciboci senegalese, per esempio. A New York, siccome abbiamo così tanti gruppi etnici e in turn, ristoranti etnici, abbiamo un sacco di questi terzi posti Sì, così, i ristoranti per me sono piuttosto interessanti in questo ambito. Puoi vedere i video di Giulia su Instagram? Giulia underscore, beh, su Instagram due underscores a K. Due? Sì, su Instagram, perché c 'è un 'altra Giulia underscore a K. Ci puoi credere. però su qualsiasi altro social media, sui social, su TikTok, su Twitter, tutti sono Giulia, un underscore A .K. solo su Instagram, ce ne sono due. Buon sapere. Allora, se sono interessante a te puoi vedere questi video che parliamo. Puoi descrivere un video per telsi posti che ti piace molto. Ok, il video che ho fatto per la Queva Fonda che era... La Queva Fonda mi piace molto... Si, quel posticino messicano nel Bronx che era, ma una delizia. Ad Ali che si era messo in contatto con me, ma mi ha andato un messaggio dicendo "guarda mi piacciono un sacco i tuoi video perché non vieni a vederci e ho detto "ma il messaggio era così sincero e così carino, così onesto" ho detto "ma perché no?" e a quel punto ero in Italia così dovevo metterlo sul calendario, tutto, sono andata ed era veramente, sai, tipo due ore e mezzo in treno da Queens, non era niente, ma sono arrivata era questo angolo adorabile in the Bronx, ma un posto carinissimo, bello pulito, silenzioso, sai, e poi c 'era questo ristorante sull 'angolo carinissimo che sembrava che, sai, che non ci fosse mai stato quell 'angolo senza quel ristorante. Era come se il ristorante ci fosse stato sempre. E arrivo, c 'è Adalie che guarda una ragazza super carina, super simpatica. Lei mi dice "abbiamo questi... abbiamo, sai, cipo messicano che ti aspetti, i tuoi taco, i tuoi quesadillas, sei la roba normale e poi dice "ma i nostri chef che sono di questi quartieri nel Messico particolari ogni giorno hanno questi speciali che sono tutti sei ricette messicane particolari, roba interessante, roba che non si trova così semplice" e io io ho detto "guarda, mettimi davanti tutta la roba particolare, se non l 'ho mai sentito nominare, portamelo" e me l 'ha portato, mi ha portato questa roba che si chiama "guaccemole" "guaccemole", la salsa del verde? Sì, quella salsa del verde? Sì, è sempre deliciosa, non è vera? Era, ma di un buono, non... Volevo di Sì, io ho detto "guarda, portamela" e me l 'ha portato. È fatto da una verdura che non ho mai sentito nome nella invitamia, una frutta verde, così, non sembra niente. È una cosa che si trova solo nel Messico, solo in questa regione. E io, normale sai vengo nel Bronx e questa qui me la porta, ed era di un buono, è tutto che c 'è portato, anche la roba sai itacos, era tutto buono però specialmente quella roba particolare proprio e took her over the edge, ha cambiato tutto, abbiamo mangiato così bene Ed era così simpatica. Era proprio questa combinazione. Abbiamo mangiato bene e questa qui era di una dolcezza, questa ragazza. Non, sai, not a bad bone in her body. So nice. Persona di cuore. Sì, esattamente. Proprio tutto cuore era. Ovviamente, Giulia, quando guardo il tuo video posso vedere che sei una persona di grande creativa, no? Allora, come scrittrice o di una scrittrice gastronomica? Qual è la tua filosofia quando scrivi di queste cose? Di cibo, di vino, delle bevante, perché fare queste cose, perché scrivere? Buonissima domanda. In generale, a me piace scrivere del cibo e del bere e di queste sensazioni, sai, queste esperienze sensoriali. Perché è un 'esperienza sensoriale, è uno di queste cose molto normali. Si fa ogni giorno, si mangio ogni giorno, mi sveglio mangio, vado a dormire poi mangio, sai, sempre. Così è questa cosa molto comune, molto quasi noiosa, ma è una cosa anche allo stesso momento molto romantica. Ci pensiamo un sacco al cibo e al bere e a questa esperienza sensoriale più delle altre, sai, il toccare per esempio, proprio toccare una cosa. Non Non ce la facciamo scrivere del toccare come scriviamo del mangiare, perché il mangiare combina, mettiamo in combinazione il senso del gusto, ma anche il senso dell 'odore, il senso del guardare, tutti questi sensi e poi anche la memoria vengono insieme, è è una cosa, non c 'è compare, non so come dice l 'Italiano, però veramente è una cosa molto interessante come soggetto, perché allo stesso momento super interessante può essere nuovo, può essere innovativo, veramente foreign, ma allo stesso momento la cosa più familiare e più comoda che esiste perché mangiare si fa ogni giorno e non si può andare senza. Così è questa combinazione del familiare e del nuovo e dell 'abilità di prendere una cosa veramente noiosa e renderla romantica, renderla, sai, eccitante. Come ha mirirato la tua alte di scrivere perché il processo di scrivere di cibo è anche il processo di fare questi video molto breve. Beh, è una cosa "too pronged", diciamo. Due cose. Sì, sono due cose in uno. C 'è la prima cosa del scrivere di una cosa così normale, però anche così romantica, come il cibo o il bere, c 'è difficoltà lì perché devi… you have to challenge yourself, devi sfidarti, ecco così che si dice, devi sfidarti, devi dire ok, come posso rendere questa cosa oggettivamente banale in una cosa bella, una cosa romantica, una cosa interessante, una cosa entertaining. Così c 'è questo elemento del creare la magia in una cosa banale. Ma poi c 'è anche con i video e il considerare che la gente non ha un 'attenzione super lunga. Questo ti costringe ad essere concisa. Devi chiarire il messaggio che vuoi esprimere così se io voglio dire "questo ci verrà buono". Devo trovare la bilancia fra il raccontare quanto era buono il cibo, proprio con tutti i dettagli, tutti gli aggettivi, le parole belle, per proprio rendere l 'immagine e l 'esperienza di questo buon mangiare vivido come deve essere, ma senza starli per tre ore a raccontarti. Devo dirlo in un modo conciso, devo dirlo in tre secondi o meno, perché se no la gente dice "Basta, non sono interessata, chi se ne frega?" e poi se ne vanno così è proprio ti devi sfidare con te stessa però anche con il mondo e con l 'informazione è una sfida però la sfida rende qualsiasi cosa creativa più ti aiuta a migliorare sfidarsi così per me la cosa che mi hanno trattato al tuo progetto e la storia delle persone, delle persone nei posti. Infatti un paio d' ore fa a questo punto hai detto che un terzo posto è un posto dove non cambi mai l 'ordine e che la gente che lavora nel posto già sa il tuo ordine. Penso spesso al mio bodega. Dove vado? Spiega un bodega. O così, per quelli non nuyorchesi, una bodega è come il Bangla, però invece di Bangla Deshi, che lo gestiscono, può essere un Yemeni. Si chiama Bangla in italiano? Sì. Ah, non lo sopevo. Sì, perché sono tutti bangledacci d 'arone. Sì, c 'è il bangle sui italiani. Così, stessa cosa del bangle però si compra il sigarette, la birra, gli snack e anche roba calda, un sandwich, roba così. E' la cosa che abbiamo in posto del bar? Sì, esatto. Invece l 'è il bar... Ma senza caffè buono ma... Sì, il caffè è una merda e non c 'è il cornetto alla colazione però. E non c 'erano tavole? No, zero tavola. Lo porti a casa o lo mangi li? Non ci importa, mangiamo alzati. Si e guardate, noi in Irochesi non serve tavola, noi ce la facciamo mangiare, camminando, correndo, in bicicletta ce la facciamo, noi mangiamo ovunque. Infatti è possibile di trovare un momento di resto incredibile mangiando alzati. E' difficile di spiegare. Ok ragazzi, c 'è oggi da spiegarvi un panino essenziale importantissimo per la cultura New Yorkese. Questo qui si chiama un chopped cheese, si traduce letteralmente in formaggio tagliato. Quello che abbiamo qui è un hamburger che lo metti sulla griglia, sulla teglia, la tagli, lo rendi un pasticcio, ci aggiungi cipolla e peperone se c 'hai voglia, a volte no, una volta Sì, dipende chi sei, dipende dove vai, ci metti formaggio americano, American cheese, il creft se la conoscete, in un panino, pomodoro, lattuga maionese, super normale e poi si mangia. È come... E peperoni, no? Sì, peperoni e cipolle. E a volte anche funghi, if you're crazy. Oh yeah, seeing that some places. I kind of love when they have the mushrooms, it's a little wild. It's a good chopped cheese. ok le piace il chop cheese del mio bodega e questa è la cosa ragazzi ogni bodega lo fai un modo un po diverso per esempio il mio il mio bodega hanno una selezione di birre stupendo acqua minerale 10 tipi tutti tutti i cioccolati che vuoi ma la cucina leaves a bit to be desired. You can't win them all. Però questo qui è buono. Questo... Come è l 'abbinamento? L 'abbinamento come vi lo vediamo. Vediamo. Beviamo un alienico zero da Tempa di Zoe, il progetto uovo di bruno dei concilis con il chop cheese è veramente buono con il gusto di chop cheese il vino diventa un po dolciastro più che lo è senza cibo la carne credo proprio attiva il dolce è molto grasso no ma Anche una piccola nota piccante, un vino con si costruttura, ma anche un po' di frutta, va bene. Sì, e ovviamente abbiamo anche le patatine con il ketchup ovunque, il mare di ketchup, ok? Se volete provare a casa a fare la una new yorkese. Il chop cheese. Il chop cheese. E le patatine. Cincin. Cincin. Il chop cheese. Giulia, perché parla buono italiano? Ah, e sai che non te l 'ho detto nemmeno. La mia nonna è - Cieno vese. - Così. Io sono di origine Liguri e sono cresciuta andando in Liguria d 'estate. Così, sai, luglio, agosto, sempre in Liguria. Così... - Ah, Liguria... - Che proprio è un bello. È da una bellezza. - Che bello. E perché, ehm, preferiti vino bianco? Forse adoro il fermentino, poi. Sì! Ai pigato! Ai pigato! Ai pigato! Non sono la stessa cosa! Così sì, mia nonna è genovese, lei ha conosciuto mio nonno che è inglese, lei non parlava, parlava tipo mezzo parola inglese, si sono sposati perché lui era un bugiardo, le ha detto una gran storia di cazzate, le ha detto ok ci sta, facciamo una famiglia, ha fatto mia mamma, poi mio ozio, mia mamma aveva letto quando era incinto con me qualche articolo che diceva ah i bambini che crescono bilingue sono intelligenti, sono bravi fanno meglio a scuola, vanno alle università più... di elite. Chi lo sa così è il mia mamma ha detto che questa bimba parlerà italiano e adesso siamo qui e parlo italiano, così ovviamente successo l 'ha avuto. Ce l 'ha fatta. Sei brillante? Grazie. Sì, come si dice, "it works", "it works", "ci sta", "ci sta", "I love", "ci sta". C 'è altro parte della famiglia, della storia della Cuba, no? Sì, tutto dalla parte di mio papà sono cubani, così sono cresciuta negli Stati Uniti come una Italo -Latina che parlava italiano in casa, strettamente, c 'era proprio la regola in casa, si parla solo italiano, però i miei genitori si sono divorziati quando ero piuttosto giovane, così in teoria se fossero rimasti insieme ci sarebbe stata una regola del solo italiano o spagnolo in casa, però siccome quello responsabile per lo spagnolo se ne è andato guarda in teoria, sempre in teoria puoi capire, senza problemi, tutto facile e easy, però il producere dello spagnolo ce la posso fare ma sono timida, mi fa paura, la gente sai I'm like, "I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here." It's hard to imagine you in your team. I can understand. In fact, I think you are an example to talk about at home. La lingua, non in la scuola, eccetera, nella casa e perché tu al centro è completamente perfetto? Sì, sono un bel esempio del imparare in casa e io se qualcuno mi dice se devi fare imparare a un bambino, una lingua, come lo fai, io dico facciamo in casa, film, tv. Ha ragione la mamma, complimenti. Sì, ha fatto bene però lo spagnolo, avendo questa base stupenda d 'italiano, ma ha reso la capacità di spagnolo un po' una merda perché in spagnolo è così simile se fosse tipo Thailandese e bea different story, però è spagnolo che è proprio la lingua più simile all 'italiano. Siccome ci sono così tante similarità, si finisce esce di fare sbagli, che si possono solo fare conoscendo l 'italiano, che però sono sempre sbagli. Sai, io dico spesso invece di mantechia, dico burro, che è proprio un 'altra parola. Sì, sì, sì. è il burro? No. No. No. No, sì, no. È esatto. Oh. Buffissima storia. Mia sorella era andata a Madrid a visitare mia nonna, mia abuela, che a quel punto viveva in Madrid con mio zio e mia sorella era andata e lei non parlava tanto Spanish, but the idea was to learn in Madrid with the whole Spanish family. It's cool. At a certain point, my sister says to my grandmother, "I'm sorry, I'm very embarrassed." Oh no. Everyone that speaks Spanish knows what just happened there. But if you don't speak Spanish, "embarassada" doesn't mean "embarrassed", "embarrassed" in Spanish means "pregnant", "incinta". So, my 13 -year -old sister, she looked at my grandmother, "super cattolica", "super cattolica". "Grandma, are you embarrassed?" But the drama, il drama che c 'era così sbagli non da fare non da fare se vuoi parlare spagnolo in inglese a false cognate come si dice in italiano credo amici falsi amici falsi amici finti tutti le persone che che parlano più di una lingua, ha una storia come quest 'altro e è un 'esperienza universale. Assolutamente. Sì, in un modo è possibile che il mio cammino di imparare italiano e perché quando ho iniziato di lavorare in ristorante italiano qui in New York hanno arrivati le persone nuove d 'Italia e queste persone hanno lavorato moltissimo di imparare inglese e in questo momento quando loro hanno fatto un errore molto carino era impossibile di non ridere, no? - Sì, no, assolutamente. Ho capito che per me non era una cosa cattiva. - No, assolutamente. Studiavo lo spagnolo quando quando era giovane e senza verguenza, no? Sin verguenza. - Sin verguenza. Che c 'è in italiano? "Senza vergogna" grazie per me la cosa più bello nel mondo è di imparare una cosa una cosa nuova di provare un piatto nuovo si ovviamente un bere una bevalla nuova non è possibile di avere questa esperienza di vergogna. No, assolutamente. No, quando hai una persona nella tua vita che sta emperando è importante di non creare una situazione di vergogna. Non ridere, non ridere. Io concordo pienamente e infatti credo che il problema sia stato per me che gli errori che facevano italiano erano errori da straniera, proprio errori da ragazza che viene dall 'inglese, errori americani, ma il suono dell 'italiano era così. Così sentono questo e poi sentono l 'errore e pensano "ah ma questa qui è scema, questa qui è stupida" e che Sì! Che capisco, sai, fino a un certo punto capisco perché ci arrivano lì, ma la cosa che per me dava fastidio è che anche se li spiegavo, guarda, il canale non parlo così because x, y, z, ma il vocabolo non è al 100%, la grammatica non è al 100%, ho fatto la grammatica l 'inglese, un italiano è un miracolo che ce la faccio con la grammatica in italiano considerando rispetto all 'inglese quanto è più complicato e dai, che mi soncare senza averlo fatto a scuola. Grazie, grazie, condimenti a me, però mi correggevano e mi guardavano come se fossi stupida perché, ascoltandomi, si aspettavano un certo livello di intellettualità in italiano. Intellettuale in inglese ce la faccio, senza problemi. In inglese sono geniale, ma in italiano sono una bambina di cinque anni. Sono semplice in italiano, sono la verità di campagna. Non è verità, parla molto bene. Dovete di capire che puoi ascoltare all 'intervista con Giulia e soltanto perché lei ha nel bio, in Instagram, come si dice, un bandiera? - Un bandiera, sì. - Un bandiere d 'Italia? - Sì. - E anche in un di Cuba? Ultimo momento. Prima di questa intervista ho un 'idea di chiedere, si parla italiano. E lei dice che Sì, grazie mille per passare tanto tempo con me oggi. Per me è stato un piacere. Guarda, mai dato vino, drink, ciop, cheese. Allora non ne abbiamo parlato del cocktail che ho creato nel... No esattamente, che era di una bontà, un cartel nuovo per lei, senza posto, con ginebra, cento merbis di bordiga e anche un prodotto di aperitivo di cap, capcorsi, rosso. Allora, è una versione del cocktail classico, il bijou. Sì, che normalmente si fa con il chartreuse. Sì, è difficile di trovare i chartreuse in questo momento, ma in questo... Sì, perché i monaci si sono decisi che qualcuno gli ha dato un 'offerta, volete creare il chartruss per proprio il mondo, in un mondo mondiale, in un modo mondiale. E loro guarda, se facciamo così, sacrificchiamo troppa qualità, non ce la facciamo, scusa, scusa, no. Bravi monaci! Eh esatto, bravi loro! Ai monaci! Ai monaci, dai! Peden salati, peden salati! Ai frati! Giulia, puoi spiegare Il pezzo di slang? No, nobev. Ok, nobev. È una cosa molto New Yorkese, molto slang, molto giovane. Abra, mi chiamavano la New Yorkese, così come la New Yorkese vi racconto un po' di una frase, di un termine che esiste solo qui, è solo di una certa generazione, gente che ha bo 5 anni più di me e 5 anni di meno, forse non la conoscono. Questa frase si chiama "no Bev", mancano una frase. "No Bev" significa "no beverage", zero bibita. E quello che significa è che se un tuo amico si vuole mangiare un panino, la merenda, qualche roba così senza bibita È un problema, un problema serio. Probabilmente. Sì. Così ai tempi anni fa c 'era un gruppo Facebook dove si chiamava "Exposing No Bevers" dove facevamo il "exposing" della gente che faceva "No Bev" senza bibita. Così tu fai una foto al tuo amico che stai mangiando qualche roba senza bibita e dice "ma guarda il Sahara che ci sarà nella bocca di sto tipo". La squadra è cattiva nobev. No, esatto. Nobev è proprio un peccato. Così per me il nobev mi sembra molto adeguato, molto appropriato per questo podcast perché si chiama modo di bere. Molto di bere? Non si beve senza il bev e altra mano? Ah, sì, ad altra mano. Non si può avere il snack senza il bev. Così se mangi senza vivita, ma che palle. E se bevi senza mangiare, anche li che palle. Why would you have a snack with no bev? Why would you have a bev with no snack. Non ha bisogno di spiegare in italiano e nella cottura italiana, no? Sì, guarda, voi capita la peritivo? Sì, sì. Dopo le cinque, ovviamente. Si beve con il cibo. Da noi 24 ore su 24 non si beve senza cibo e viceversa, non si mangia senza avere. Uno va con l 'altro, sono così, sono. In un momento nella cottura americana quando abbiamo l 'abilità di capire questa cosa fondamentale. Generalmente abbiamo problemi con il concetto di aperitivo. Durante il viaggio di fare 30 video di Terzi Posti, le bevante che hai incontrato. Ah, sì, due vevande veramente note. Ho scoperto, facendo questa serie, che, guarda, io per anni pensavo New York non ha il suo drink. Certe città c 'hanno il loro drink, ci sta proprio, cioè, ma New York mi sembrava eh, siamo troppo diversi, siamo troppo, cioè, troppa diversità per proprio esserci un drink ma no ho sbagliato perché infatti il drink di new york è una margarita perché ogni posto dove andavo non solo offrivano una margarita ma non era una margarita di niente una bella margarita ci stava una roba fatta bene il rum buono la menta buona guarda se dobbiamo avere per forza un drink It's like, it might not be everybody's first choice, but nobody's gonna say no. I mean, they're great. exactly universally appreciated cosi wherever you are chiunque tu sia la margarita te la bevi e poi qui si trova ovunque anywhere you go c 'è una margarita la seconda avevanda che non la trova non la troverete in italia punto basta non esiste ma si può fare una cosa dominicana che si chiama morir sogniando, che vuol dire morire sogniando. I just realized it sounds the exact same in Italian. Morire sogniando e la bevanda è succo d 'arancio fresca, mischiato come un smoothie o milkshake con latte e ghiaccio e la bevi così, di una bontà ma così buono e non esiste da nessuna altra parte, a parte qui la repubblica dominicana forse Miami, ma morire sognando da provare succo d 'arancia con latte. Il stato si chiama Wisconsin, al norte dei Stati Uniti c 'erano le bevande di gelato, allora i cocktail vecchi con latte, come Grasshopper, come Brandy Alexander, invece gelato, gelato di vaniglia con un blender e in questo modo questi bevande non sono i bevanti migliori del mondo, ma congelato. Vivevo a Upper Midwest, Iowa, Minnesota, eccetera. Ok, molto vicino alla frontiera di Wisconsin. C 'è una cultura, The Supper Club. Ok, The Supper Club. Ok, hanno i Prime Rib, come si dice? Ah, Prime Rib. Primer Rib. Primer Rib. Ok, sì, è una cosa molto buona, molto vecchima, buoni. Allora, nel questo posto è popolare adesso I Ice Cream Drinks. Giulia, se c 'è un italiano che vuole fare una visita a Stati Uniti a New York, ha bisogno di consiglio di visitare un ristorante non in Manhattan, nell 'Un Outer World Brooklyn Queens Bronx, eccetera. Sì, Sì, in questo momento, raccomandazione fuorimattana. Beh, guarda, questa domanda è sempre per me difficile perché, sai, io, c 'ho sempre... "What's your budget? Who are you taking?" Sì, è sempre tante domande, però, generalmente, parlando, non sapendo quanto vuoi spendere, chi vuoi portare tutti questi dettagli super importanti, direi... Se hai soldi da spendere, fa l 'ansai. Se non c 'hai soldi da spendere, l 'acqua va a fonda. That's what I would say. L 'acqua va a fonda. Yeah. If you don't have money. If you got money, go to fa l 'ansai. Okay. Because that's like... È dove? Quello lì è in Bushwick. Right off the Morgan L stop, I think. po' vago però. Possiamo mettere nella notte del, del show, dello show. Parliamo del New York. Tutto quello che posso scrivere su New York, che l' amo, l' amo disperatamente come città. Ma io posso scrivere qualsiasi cosa, non sarò stata la prima e non sarò manco l 'ultima. There will always be like somebody who did it better than I did before me and somebody that will do it better after me. And I love that. E' un parte di un sistema quasi, di una storia del New York. Io non sarò mai l 'unica. Amo questa città, ma non sarò mai l 'unica. E' un amore che posso condividere con non solo anche sei dieci persone, venti persone, cento persone, ma miliardi di persone, gente che non c 'è mai stata, la amano come la amo io, and that's crazy. Per me è un onore amare questa città e avere l 'opportunità di scriverla, di esserci dentro, di capirla, di osservarla. Per me è un onore, è un privilegio, perché tanta gente la ama come la amo io, ma non ci sono mai stati. Giulia non ferma mai di scrivere di New York. Per favore. Grazie. Possiamo mettere nelle notte. Your Instagram links and stuff. Ah, ok. Su Instagram importante. Io sono Giulia, G -E u, l, i, a, underscore, underscore, trattino di sotto, trattino di sotto, due, due trattini di sotto, a, k, però su qualsiasi altro social, TikTok, Twitter, tutti gli altri sono Giulia singolo, trattino di sotto, one underscore, a, k. Anche hai scritto un romanzo? Sì, infatti sì, ho scritto un romanto. E come va? Ma sta andando bene, lo sto facendo leggere ad altra gente, così non sono l 'unica che ciò mi socchi. Così a questo punto siamo nel processo di farlo vedere alle persone e farlo vedere ai professionisti così a un certo punto sperando bene che qualcuno me lo vuole comprare. Così, that's alright. Allora, avete bisogno di scoprire questa scrittrice bilante di cibo che palla perfetto italiano. Sono brava, buona e carina. Grazie mille per parlare con me, per passare tantissimo tempo con me. Era stato un piacere. Mi sono divertita un sacco. Mi è piacere, grazie. Grazie. ovunque tu vada e qualunque cosa tu beva, ricordi, goderti la vita e di non smettere mai di imparare mai, mai ragazzi, gangster La música está está composta da Ersilia Prosperi para el Grupo Ou. La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto, registrato e montato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Versione video da [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com). [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S3E2 L'asino nella musica popolare siciliana con Michela Musolino URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s3e2-michela-musolino-asino/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:12:12.000Z La cantante e folclorista siculo-americana Michela Musolino parla su due canzoni popolari dell'Italia meridionale sugli asini: "U sceccu" e "Lu sciccareddu", noto anche come "Sciccareddu lu me cori". ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/michela-musolino-drum-format-original.png) Scopri di più sul poeta popolare Salvatore Adelfio e sul testo che scrisse sull'asino come simbolo del contadino durante la Rivoluzione del pane in Sicilia del 1848, e acquista la registrazione di Michela che canta il testo di Salvatore, che il suo amico Rocco Pollina mise in musica nel 1979 , al link sottostante. [https://michelamusolino.com/track/1413193/u-sceccu](https://mododibereitaliano.podbean.com/e/it-donkey/?%20Pensi%20che%20gli%20asini%20siano%20carini?%20Ti%20piace%20la%20storia,%20la%20musica%20o%20la%20Sicilia?%20Questo%20episodio%20%C3%A8%20per%20te!%20%20La%20conversazione%20tra%20la%20conduttrice%20di%20Modo%20di%20Bere%20Rose%20Thomas%20e%20la%20cantante%20e%20folclorista%20siculo-americana%20Michela%20Musolino%20%C3%A8%20incentrata%20su%20due%20canzoni%20popolari%20dell%27Italia%20meridionale%20sugli%20asini:%20&ref=mododibere.com) Se cerchi un album di Natale, per te o da regalare, ti consiglio l’album di Michela La Notti Triunfanti: [https://michelamusolino.com/store](https://michelamusolino.com/store?ref=mododibere.com) Ascolta all'episodio 7 della prima stagione di questo podcast per saperne di più sul lavoro musicale di Michela. [Il vino fa il sangue: la cantante folk siciliana-americana Michela Musolino](https://www.mododibere.com/michela-musolino/) Grazie Carmen per aver fatto suonare l'asino, grazie a Rocco, Luigi e Raquel per i loro video con le frasi, e un grande ringraziamento a Roberto di Filippo ([dall'episodio 5 della prima stagione](https://www.mododibere.com/roberto-di-filippo/)) per aver ispirato questo episodio con il suo amore e rispetto per l'asino. [Ascolta in inglese / Listen in English](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-en/s3e4/michela-musolino-the-revolutionary-donkey) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)Ci vuole solamente un istanto, in un momento si può cambiare, le cose possono cambiare o si può agire, in un momento non è che ci vuole un grande sforzo, un grande movimento, ma in un momento, un piccolo momento si può cambiare tutto. Benvenuti, a modo di bere italiano, il podcast subevante e detti locali. Sono la conduitrice Rose Thomas Bannister. si parla dell 'Asino con l 'ospite di ritorno Michela Mussolino. Michela è una cantante e folklorista siciliana americana. Puoi ascoltare molto più della sua musica e conoscere meglio il suo lavoro sull 'episodio 7 della prima stagione di questo podcast. Puoi ascoltare sia questo episodio che la precedente intervista di Michaela in inglese. Cerca il podcast Chiamato semplicemente Moro di Bere. Puoi anche guardare questo episodio in entrambi le lingue su un nuovo canale YouTube per il podcast youtube .com /chiocholamororiberepodcast. Vai su Michaela Mussolino .com e acquista la sua musica, che sono un regalo fantastico, lei ha fatto un bellissimo album di Natale. Sono qui con Michela Mussolino, cantante siciliana americana, che ha registrato una brava puntata il nostro rosso della storia di Sicilia, dei strumenti siciliani, è importante di ascoltare quella puntata se già non avete ascoltato, ma oggi sono molto entusiasta perché l 'ha puntata o Diana, il soggetto è l 'asino o in siciliano? Usheku. Usheku. E Michela ci racconta la storia perché siamo qui oggi, parliamo dell 'Asino. Tu hai presentato un bel intervisto con il contadino di Filippo, no? Al Roberto di Filippo? Sì, lui ha parlato dell 'Asinello, quando loro sono intelligenti eccetera, lui parlava della disposizione, del comportamento dell 'Asinello. Diciamo che siamo would like a donkey but it is wrong, in reality the donkey is smarter than an horse. If you are a good horse trainer you can ride an horse and you can push the horse, you are on the horse you can push him to jump down from a cliff to die. Don't try to do that with a donkey because he will never Do that. So who is the smarter horse or donkey? I don't know why we are Talking about the dunkiness so bad way. I love them. They are really noisy, but they are also smart and also cute And I wrote you but I like a lot the Azinelli In fact I sing songs that tell the story of della sinnello, che è un metafro per una parte della storia della Sicilia. Per queste ragioni io sono qua oggi. Questa canzone per me è una canzone molto bella, molto intrecciata nella mia storia come una cantante perché è una canzone che ho imparato in Sicilia, un amico mio, Umberto Leone ha suonato questo, lui ha cantato questo canzone per me anni fa, eravamo assalinute al mare, eravamo nella casa di Umberto e il suo ammoglio Ute e lui mi ha cantato questo canzone e lui mi ha detto "Questa è una bella canzone per te". Io pensavo che questa sia una canzone tradizionale. In parecchiani dopo stavo parlando con l 'amore di un amico mio, l 'amore di un amico mio Rocco Polina e mio amico e ho detto che io sto pensando di registrare queste canzoni e lei dà "bella, sono contenta che tu registri una canzone che mio marito ha scritto" e detto "scusa, ma pensavo che sia una canzone tradizionale" e lei mi ha spiegato "no, il testo è tradizionale, il testo è di una poesia storica, ma la melodia è iscrita dal mio amico Rocco. Il testo è molto interessante perché il testo parla di un episodio nella vita di un asinello in dialetto siciliano diciamo "shèku" o "shèku". Questa poesia è iscrita nel 1848, nel tempo dei grandi rivolte, c 'erano rivolte perché i contadini non avevano pane per mangiare. I politici hanno messo le tasse sul pane e i poveri non potevano nemmeno comprare o fare pane perché anche per comprare la farina c 'erano un tasse, c 'erano delle tasse. In queste canzoni l 'asinello è un metafro per il contadino e in queste canzoni l 'asinello dici al padrone io sto morendo da fame vorrei da mangiare e tu tu sei robusto tu hai da mangiare potresti avere piattà potresti per caristi potresti per gentilezza potresti darmi qualcosa da mangiare anche un piccolo pezzo di pane e padrone ha risposto no tu sei un asinello io non ti aiuto, anche se vessi un bel po' di paglia, non ti do da mangiare perché tu rimanerai a Zinello e tu avrai ancora famme e con questo la Zinello si butta intera e lui ha rifiutato di lavorare di più e lui diceva "usazio un un criri all 'Udiunu, vuole dire, quello che ha da mangiare, non capisceisce mai quello che sta morendo da fame. Queste erano canzoni per spiegare questo periodo nella storia della Sicilia, quando i poveri non avevano da mangiare. Ci sono tanti emozioni in queste canzoni e c 'è tanta storia pure e ci sono pure tante metafori, c 'è il metafro dell 'asinello, c 'è questo grande modo da dire della alla fine un sazio non criri all 'uddi uno e anche ci sono immagini, per esempio c 'è una parte della canzone quando in Siciliano canto la cire in mano degli sacristani, squaggia come la nivia alla campie che vuole dire la c 'era in mano ai sacristani, si scioglie come la neve suoi campi, vuole dire che ci vuole solamente un istanto, in un momento si può cambiare, le cose possono cambiare o si può agire, in un momento non è che ci vuole un grande sforzo, un grande movimento, ma in un momento, un piccolo momento si può cambiare tutto. E quando presento queste canzoni, parlo un po' della storia e parlo... quando annuncio, sempre quando dico io sto per cantare una canzone, tradizionato una canzone folk dalla storia di Sicilia, una canzone della Zinello, ci sono sempre siciliani nel pubblico che diventano oltre felice perché loro aspettano una canzone molto conosciuta, una canzone che parla dell 'Asinello, che è molto intrecciato nella storia della musica folk siciliana. Però questa è la differenza tra le due canzoni. Quello che canto io è uno per il palco, la melodia è un po' moderna, eccetera. Quell 'altro canzone che loro stanno aspettando è una canzone molto carina della tradizione del folk. Quella canzone si chiama "O scicaretto mio, o di Lume Cori. Ci sono due titoli, no? E in questa canzone lo chicareggio, o lo secco, è ammazzato. E quello che canta è molto triste, lui si sente un dolore, lui sta piangendo e lui parla quanto era bello, quanto era carino questo asinero, lui aveva un voce come un tenore. E lui dice "questa è una parte di queste canzone". C 'è sempre uno che si può dire abbaiare, si sa fare il rumore dell 'ansinello e a un certo punto la melodia si ferme e una arriva per fare questo rumore di un 'ansinello. Quando parlo dell 'altra canzone, dell 'uscecco, tutti nel pubblico aspettano quest 'altra canzone dove uno nella banda fa rumore, fa come un Asinello e io dico sempre "no, questo è un altro canzone, non c 'è nessuno nella banda che sa fare come l 'Asinello" e infatti c 'era una volta, io ho fatto queste canzoni a New York una volta e c 'era un bel gruppo di siciliani nel pubblico e c 'era un uomo nel pubblico, lui ha detto "scusa, sicuro, io so fare, io posso fare" e ha detto "ma dai" e lui è venuto sul palco e lui ha fatto queste, lui ha parlato, lui ha fatto la voce dell 'Alsinello e abbiamo regalato a lui un disco e in un piccolo strumento siciliano folk, si chiama Tiriti, una cosa che fa una bella cosa per fare percussione. E' una importante abilità, no? Si, è un talento, è un talento unico, ma anche se è una canzone divertente, "Oh, questo, mi adoravo, questo chiccare d 'umia", eccetera. È molto interessante perché c 'è una strofa. Quando il cantante dice "quando mia moglie è morta", io piangevo, ma senza dolore. Però quando il mio asinello è morto, che gran dolore, che tristezza. Lui non è un momo cattivo, non è la misoginiera, misoginiero. E semplicemente l 'asinello era fondamentale per sopravvivere, per vivere. Se si avesse un asinello, c 'è da mangiare, c 'è in raccolta, c 'è tutto. Senza asinello si è perso, non si può lavorare, non si può mantenere fami, né figli ne moglie, no? E anche se noi ridiamo quando facciamo queste canzone, quando ascottiamo queste canzone, ci deve ricordarci di un 'epoca, quando le nostre vite erano difficile, no? Senza avere quest 'animale non potevamo campare, si dì, non potevamo esistere. Era un animale fondamentale per la vita, per vivere, per mantenere una fattoria, per mantenere la famiglia. Infatti mi hai detto che, a Zinello, come si dice in siciliano? "C 'ecco" o "ciccareggio", e come un simbolo del contadino. Sì, nella canzone che io faccio, "Uscecco", quello che dalla poesia di "Salvatore ad Elfio, lui utilizzava l 'asinello, come il metafro per il contadino, perché un asinello può lavorare duramente, può fare un lavoro straordinario, un lavoro molto difficile, perché sono forse. Può lavorare per giorni, senza fermarsi, può andare tanti giorni, senza mangiare tanto, loro mangiano un piccolo po' della erba, loro non mangiano tanto, loro possono campare anche senza bere tanto. Era proprio un simbolo del povero contadino che faceva una vita molto difficile, che doveva fare un lavoro molto duro, che doveva esistere senza da mangiare, senza da bere. Era proprio un 'immagine della vita che loro hanno vissuto in quella epoca. È molto forte anche in quella canzone, perché lui capisce "eh, se io non posso continuare, non posso subire questa condizione di lavorare senza ricevere il mio, senza ricevere quello che ho guardaneato, si può dire". - Sì, e non ho bisogno di molto, soltanto di un po'. - Nella canzone anche lui dice "io ti chiedo un piccolo pezzo di pane, come si dice nemmeno, non si può dire mudiche, Molica in Italia mudiche in Siciliano, ma lui ha chiesto un piccolo pezzo di pane e lui non poteva ricevere nemmeno questo piccolo pezzo. Puoi tornare un po' al testo di vedere, di guardare la differenza nella lingua siciliano e italiano. Certo, nella terza strofa diciamo... incantiamo in italiano "il padrone rispose, buonariamente, se fosse paglia ti avrei concesso da mangiartene anche un grosso sacco ma non ha senso darti il pane". Ma in siciliano, cantiamo così, "risposi di buon con cori lupatroni, si fossi paglia da veri a concesso, mangiare, magari un saccuni, ma di pane non ci trovo nessuno. Ci sono anche meno parole, ma più suoni, si può dire, no? Invece di padroni, lupatroni, si fossi paglia. Invece di paglia, se vuol dire paglia, in dialetto siciliano, il "g" fa la parte del gl in italiano, per esempio "paglia" in italiano "paggia". Nell 'altra canzone "o chicaretto mio", no? Parliamo della "moglia", "mogliera", "moglie", "mogg -moglie". Diciamo in queste canzoni la cire in mano di Lissac Cristani, "squaglia", "squaglia", "scioglie" in italiano. Cioè i siciliani mettono invece di g l mettono doppio g 2g e 1h meraviglioso e ci sono le due canzoni registrare con te no? io ho registrato solamente uscicco, uscicredio mio è registrato io non ho registrato quella forse posso io ok mi fa una segna il suono asinello, ok? Per favore, canta per noi. Avevo un asinello, davvero s 'ha purito, adesso me l 'hanno mazzato, povero asino mio. E io ho perso la melodia, scusa, ma no, è terribile. Quelle che conoscono queste canzoni stanno scotando e dicono "ma lei sta sbagliando". Sì, e non è asino e asinello? Non lo sapevo. Quando io parlo di questi animali. Io sempre parlo di quelle piccoli siciliane, quelle con la croccia e sulla dorsa, questi sono i miei preferiti. Asino vuole dire quello grande, asinello, sono quelli piccoli. Sì. Mi hai raccontato una storia della tua figlia con un asinello siciliano, no? Perché quando lei era piccola, Visitevamo i nostri amici che in America abitavano in North Carolina. Loro hanno una fattoria nello Stato di Virginia e loro allevano animale e allevano gli asinelli, quelli siciliani piccoli, diciamo in inglese "miniatura" piccolissimi. E quando lei era piccola, lei andava sull 'adorso degli asinelli. C 'era una seggola per mettere sopra l soplasinello. Era proprio la misura per mia piccola figlia. Ricordi proprio bellissimo perché per noi era una cosa quasi incantevole, ma anche quando lei era piccola c 'era un negozio vicino alla casa nostra. Era un negozio di tutta la roba per il giardino, loro vendevano fiori, un verdura, anche gli strumenti per lavorare nel giardino eccetera, ma loro hanno avuto una piccola fattoria con gli animali, era aperto al pubblico e loro allevavano anche questi asinelli siciliani e andavamo quasi ogni settimana per così, mio figlio poteva giocare con questi animali. Così lei aveva animali vicino alla casa e c 'erano animali quando noi visitavamo i nostri amici e lei era molto abituata a questi animali. Un giorno eravamo in Sicilia e lei ha avuto un invito di andare alla manneggia con sua amica, che era a Coitania con mia figlia, perché la ragazza andava in cavallo questa amica e lei era molto passionata dei cavalli e le ha invitato mia figlia di andare con lei, di giocare con vado a andare in cavallo e mia figlia è tornata a casa e lei ha detto mamma io non voglio tornare mai più e ha detto ma come è possibile e mia figlia è molto forte, è molto determinata lei ha detto non voglio tornare domani, né domani, né l 'indomani io vado al mare e eventualmente stavo parlando con un altro amico nostro che alleva Azinelli in Sicilia lui fa contadino e ho detto "ma io non capisco, lei non voleva andare con i cavali però con gli asinelli lei è sempre felice di andare in asinello, di giocare con gli asinelli" e lui detto "certo perché hanno proprio un 'altra disposizione, hanno un carattere molto diverso dei cavali, loro un asinello è dolce e lui ha detto proprio dolce, lui ha usato proprio quella parola. Un asinello è dolce, proprio hanno un carattere dolce, i cavali non sono così e lui ha detto "tuo figlio è molto sensibile, lei capisce che questi animali sono dolci". Un momento di, come una mamma, di fare una pausa, "ah, animali, bambini, si capiscono no? Noi siamo separati, noi non capiamo queste cose, per noi monasinella è proprio una cosa molto bella, molto molto carina. Infatti ho imparato molti detti dell 'asino, mi amico Rocco dall 'Azio che ha un ristorante che adoro in New York, ha tre ristoranti infatti lui mi ha insegnato a lavare testa all 'asino perdere acqua sapone e tempo è vero sì in inglese diciamo you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink e non è completamente lo stessa cosa, ma è possibile di portare un cavallo all 'acqua, ma non a... come si dice? Può farli davvero. Sì. È un 'importante parte del mio lavoro. Folk, tradizione popolare di imparare tutti i detti per dire che hai bevuto troppo, ieri sera. In inglese diciamo "hangover" ho scoperto che molti dei questi detti sono con gli animali, per esempio non è un nazino ma in veneto ho imparato "go nazimia addosso" che significa "ho adesso una nazimia" e anche da un produttore bravo Mattias Cetertcic di azienda Ferdinand in Berda, in Slovenia mi ha insegnato la frase come "ho un gato" o "ho un tigre" se è una condizione molto male allora un modo di dire molto divertente di questo malattia o imparato direi dal i produttori che fanno vino dal uva dal vitino nasciuta un vino raro di più molte il detto tradure in italiano porto l 'asino io porto l 'asino non mi porto l 'asino io porto l 'asino è difficile di pronunciare secondo me ma è molto bufo bello bello bello mi fa ricordare della della fiamma come si dice di una fiamma di esop si c 'è forse più più di uno di esop no c 'era uno che un padre e figlio camminavano con con l 'asinello e uno ha detto scusa ma il figlio non devi camminare metti il figlio sulla sorsa dell 'asinello e poi dopo un 'altra persona del nonno il padre non devi camminare perché lui è vecchio, lui deve andare e alla fine una ha detto nonno che povera asinello con questi persone voi dovresti portare l 'asinella quando loro cercano di portare l 'asinello l 'asinello ha detto no basta l 'asinello è scappato via e loro sono rimasti con niente il messaggio è non ascoltare tutti i personaggi Non ascoltare nessuno. È un professore di filosofia quest 'arimale. Ma anche c 'è un 'altra parola in italiano per Asinello. Sommaro. Sommaro anche può dire... Sommaro. Infatti c 'è un 'altra canzone, siamo tre sommari e tre briganti. Sommaro può dire... Asinello può dire "persono stupida", può dire "doppio senso". Secondo me le asinelle hanno ricevuto una riputazione un po' in errore perché sono proprio animali bravi, intelligenti, di buone maniere, però sono come un po' come siciliano, sono proprio resistenti un po'. Sì no, infatti Roberto di Filippo sa d 'accordo con te e lui è da Umbria, lui dice che l 'asino è più di un cavallo. Sì, è importante e divertente video di questo progetto. Ho imparato questo dal mio amico che alleva Asinelline in Sicilia. Il latte che loro producono è una cosa molto molto molto buona per il corpo. Una cosa, sfortunatamente, Non è una cosa che produciamo con grande industria, è una cosa molto difficile di acquistare. Ci sono pochi pochi posti nel mondo che producono questo latte. E' molto salubre, è una cosa molto buona per il corpo. Anche quando ci sono bambini che hanno tanti malettie, loro devono bere questo latte perché è molto buono per il corpo. La cosa è dentro questo latte e sono molto salubri per il corpo, si fanno bene bere questo lato. Stanno che il lato della capra è molto ovunque adesso. Anche hai questi come si dice "earrings"? Ah sì, ho sopportato oggi orecchini che ho comprato questi orecchini in Sicilia per mia figlia, però Lei mi permette di portarli e c 'è un asinello sulla lecchia, non so se si può vedere. Che bello! Questo ha un... c 'è un asinello a questo, un asinello è un ficcolinia. E qua c 'è una babbo luce qua. Molto bello, molto bello. Allora gli ascoltatori italiani credo che ci sono più modo di dire dell 'asino e più storie, più, più canzoni. E enviami un email nel mio sito web www .mododibere .com e enviami un messaggio di questo. È importante imparare tutti dell 'asino, della storia dell 'asino in in Italia, no? Vediamo di questi detti modi da dire, potremmo creare un 'altra canzone, forse vediamo. Perché no? Mi piace molto di parlare di questo conte, grazie mille per quest 'idea, questa idea bella. E Michela dopo abbiamo registrato quell 'appuntata intervisto con te, la tua musica e la musica sicilia e lingua siciliano e tutto. Che cosa fai adesso con la musica? Io sto preparando per andare in giro e mi fa un grande piacere. Sto preparando per fare concerti e devo viaggiare un bel po'. Vado in Canada per cantare per i siciliani in Canada. È molto interessante per che quest 'anno io canterò a tante feste italiane, che non sembra un gran che probabilmente per gli italiani che stanno ascoltando adesso, però per me è una cosa molto rara, perché tanti festi italiani non permettono o non includono la musica italiana, è una cosa allucinante, però ci sono quelli che proprio apprezzano la musica tradizionale, la musica italiana. Prime dal cover andavo, perché vote all 'anno, non sono andata da più di tre anni. Sto preparando questi canzoni tradizionali siciliani e sto mescolando le melodie con tradizione americana, particolarmente tradizione del sud e tradizioni che sono identificate con il mio paese adesso di Memphis, per mostrare quest 'arco di migrazione del popolo dal mondo vecchio al mondo nuovo. Perché italiani sono un popolo che faceva musica dai tempi antichi. Questa storia è ricordata, si può dire registrato in senso ricordato, in senso ci sono tanti cose documentati e documentate questa storia. Cosa sono arrivati in America? Questa tradizione di fare la musica continuava e io vorrei mostrare questo con la musica. Sto creando proprio arrangementi molto interessanti e molto vivaci. Secondo me loro sono arrangementi molto belli. La continuazione del suono che abbiamo creato per il mio disco per Natale e anche sto Preparando un progetto per l 'Istituto di Tennessee Folklife, quando sono trasferita qua nel Stato di Tennessee, volevo incontrare la gente e volevo condividere il mio lavoro. Sono andata a quest 'Istituto solamente per incontrare la gente, per capire che cosa loro stanno facendo e adesso mi trovo coinvolta in un progetto. Sto esaminando la connessione tra gli italiani qua a Memphis con la musica perché c 'è una grande industria, è una grande tradizione della musica qua a Memphis. C 'erano sempre italiani convolti, per esempio c 'era il primo negozio dei dischi a Memphis, ha per due fondatori, due italavo americani, è un negozio dove Elvis ha comprato il suo disco. E' meraviglioso. Yeah, e adesso sto raccogliando interviste, sto cercando storie di persone della famiglia, della tradizione per creare questo progetto e non so dove finirò con questo progetto, ma non so se diventrà qualcosa scritta, una cosa digitale. Ho iniziato solamente per raccogliere un po' di musica, puoi trovare canzoni, ma adesso sto creando proprio un... non so che sto creando adesso proprio, ma sto esaminando questa storia mella. Se per caso c 'è un italiano che sta ascoltando, che ha una connessione tra me e me, se è la musica io sono molto interessata di ascoltare la tua storia. Si può trovarmi sul MichelaMusolino .com, può scrivere me sul mio sito, ma vorrei fare un intervisto, vorrei parlare con tutto questa gente che sa di questa connessione. Anche c 'è un altro annuncio, io aspetto un arrivo in famiglia di due tamburi siciliani. Ah, brava! È allucinante, un regista italiano mi ha scritto e lui ha detto "vorei farti vedere il mio film documentario" era un film bellissimo della storia di uno che costruisce questi tamburi. L 'artista si chiama Francesco Amara, il regista si chiama Giuseppe Malpaso che è il cugino di Francesco. Io stavo cercando un altro tamburo e devo parlare con lui e lui sta creando i tamburi proprio quello che stavo... che voglio suonare. Adesso loro stanno arrivando dal... loro stanno volando dalla Sicilia a casa mia questi tamburi. Spero che con la riva dell 'Olautuno i primi mesi dell 'inverno posso tornare in Sicilia. Non potevo tornare quest 'estate. Spero che sì. E allora dobbiamo fare un concerto insieme, sarebbe bella. Anche perché ho questa idea, è una idea che mi è venuta negli ultimi giorni, ho questa idea di creare un concerto registrato, filmato e non so come fare, non so il repertorio ma ho questa idea. Quando ricevo un 'idea è come un manno invisibile, mi sta spingendo da dietro, no? Sì, ma sono qui con Moro di Bere TV, abbiamo una serie di YouTube, è nuovo, ma poco a poco ci sono più contenuti di questo YouTube serie e sono video di bevande locali e detti locali. Esattamente come questo e forse chissà che è possibile di fare, forse il Stato di Tennessee vuole che facciamo un video con te, del questo brano progetto della storia delle due culture, no? I Siciliani e anche tutti gli immigranti italiani hanno contribuito un bel po' alla tradizione della Musa e qua in America. Abbiamo tanti canzoni famosi scritti dagli italiane, c 'erano tanti italiani che hanno fatto, hanno sonato a chitarra, sono musicisti bravissimi che hanno partecipato in registrazione storiche o loro hanno fatto ingegneri eccetera, hanno contribuito un bel po' e loro devono essere riconosciuti per questo, devono una storia che il mondo devi conoscere. Grazie mille Michaela per essere ancora con me per parlare del quest 'animale nobile dei contadini siciliani e di tutto il mondo. L 'asinello o in siciliano secco o secco, seccaredo direi la verità voglio i detti dell 'asino e vi Siamo un 'email nel mio sito. Visita il sito di Michaela per comprare i bedischi. Sono molto molto bello. Grazie a i nostri ascoltatori e sostenitori di questo programma. È un onore di ricevere questa opportunità di condividere soltanto con voi questa puntata della Sinello. Grazie. \[MÚSICA\] Llevo bajo el brazo payaso que permanece dejándose llevar. Un otro se engañando, se dejan separarse mismo La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto e registrato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Audio e video montato da [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com). [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S3E1 I divertenti brindisi del mondo URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s2e1-trailer-brindisi/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:13:47.000Z Brindisi in rima calabrese. Una canzone da bere padovana. Toast cinetici dalla Francia e dalla Spagna. Un detto sul bere in dialetto taiwanese. Rose Thomas, conduttrice di Modo di Bere, condivide detti divertenti sul bere da tutto il mondo nel trailer della terza stagione del podcast sulle bevande e detti locali. [Ascolta in inglese / Listen in English](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-en/s3e1/trailer/funny-toasts-from-around-the-world) ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/rose-thomas-in-verona-format-original.jpg) - Espandi per la trascrizione generata automaticamente. (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)Benvenuti e amore di bere italiano, il podcast su bevande e detti locali. Sono la conduitrice Rose Thomas Bannister. Jodala. Jodala means button up. Don't leave any drinks, you know, in your glass. Oh, oh, up high. Okay. La bar. La bar. Don't rub yet. Yeah, wait for the rub. And then saglís, saglís. Viajo travel around the world, collecting information, and yes, this is a fantastic job. After a while, some schemes begin to be noticed. The three phrases that you have just heard are in Spanish, a Taiwanese and French dialogue, and they are all rendisi con un movimento ritualizzato, come i bambini nel parco che giocano a pari cake, tranne che con bevande speciali. Mettere il bicchiere davanti a te, in aria, giù verso l 'ombelico e poi svuotare il telo in bocca. Enclinare la testa all 'indietro e bere la tazza fino alla fecia. E come dice il proverbio francese, fai tintinare la parte superiore dei bicchieri, poi la parte inferiore, quindi strofinando insieme i lati. L 'ultima parola in quela frase significa scivoloso. Il mio nome è Rose Thomas Bannister. Sono una scrittrice divino e studente di lingue, in particolare di quelle locali che le grandi lingue chiamano dialetti. Intervisto persone sulle bevande e detti locali nel podcast Moro di Bere e nel programma di viaggio Moro di Bere TV. delle uve autoctane e della sua diversità linguistica. Le uve locali e i dialetti non sono sempre stati apprezzati dalle forze del mercato globale e dalle principali lingue che usiamo nei riaffari, nell 'istruzione e nel fatto di essere presi sul serio dai ragazzi popolari, ma proprio come i ragazzi eccentrici che potrebbero... viene omogeneo come un 'immagine generata dall 'intelligenza artificiale, ciò che viene perso è la creatività che ci rendono umani. Creatività, come viene quando ci incontriamo per un drink con i nostri amici e scriviamo poesia sui drink? Ho avuto la possibilità di viaggiare in Italia nel ottuno del 2023 per realizzare un documentario regionale sul vino e ho scelto la calabria. Sì, perché amo il vino, ma anche perché il mio video Instagram di Vicenzo Hipolito, della più antica azienda vitivinicola della calabria, Lui spiega i brindisi calabresi in rima. Il video è stato ripreso da alcuni account calabresi ed è diventato il real più visto di modo di bere fino ad oggi. Dovevamo semplicemente seguire il amore direttamente a Ciro, la regione di Siosi vini rossi ottenuti dalla varietà locale Gallioppo. Ecco Vincenzo. - What's your name? - Rosa. - Let me do something with Rosa. Pussù in un esparame a Rosa, brindisi faccio all 'amica Rosa. Al nord, nella città di Parova, il mio amico Davire ha imparato una canzone da bere da a nonna. Palsiamo il bicchiere, facciamo cincì, brindiamo, brindiamo, brindiamo, tutto il mondo fa cincì, sollevando un bicchiere di vincì. Sì, il mondo è pieno di brindisi, al buon umore, alla buona salute e alla lunga Longa vita! Cheers! Salud! Baham! Il tost europeo cincin è facile da dire e mi ricorda il suono tintinio dei bicchieri, ma se vuoi diventare un po' più creativo, gira il mondo con me per brindisi con movimento, filastroche subere e anche canzoni. Ascolta il podcast Moro di Bere disponibile in inglese e italiano. Basta cercare Moro di Bere podcast sul tuo lettore di podcast preferito o su YouTube dove ora sono disponibili episodi visivi. Hai un Brindisi locale da condividere? Inviami una nota tramite il mio sito web al indirizzo www .mododibere .com dove puoi anche ricevere la mia newsletter "mododibere mag" grazie mille per aver ascoltato la terza stagione del podcast ovunque tu vada e qualunque cosa tu beva ricorda sempre di goderti la vita e di non smettere mai di imparare Sostianici su Patreon, prendi la newsletter su ModoDibere .com Y suscribiti al canal de YouTube ModoDibere per guardare lo espetáculo di viaggio ModoDibere .TV La música estata composta da el sitio Prosperi per el Grupo O. La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto e registrato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Montato da [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com). [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) ha fornito assistenza audio. ### Coffee Lover, Coffee Snob URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/coffee-lover-coffee-snob/ Last updated: 2026-08-16T05:34:52.000Z I tell our accountant, Archie, that I am writing a story about coffee snobbery. Archie had read my book, [**God in a Cup**](https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/god-in-a-cup-in-pursuit-of-perfect-coffee%5Fmichaele-weissman/471423/?srsltid=AfmBOor3CUK00lWAanWftOAhEPfvFbtJViKuNHYQVeOs2lWjrHmSJHCB&utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=are-you-a-coffee-snob&%5Fbhlid=919cb67f3690a4ea57519c723733d299e2981c18#edition=5580859&idiq=8501269), about the specialty coffee industry, for which I followed three young coffee buyers around the world. He immediately launched into a complaint about his wife’s Starbucks habit. His wife, he says, cannot start the day without a venti-sized, double-shot, almond milk, vanilla-flavored latte: approximate cost $8.00 a day, plus tip. She skips the whipped cream. In Archie’s view, a coffee snob is someone who spends thousands of dollars a year at Starbucks. I like Archie, so I don’t tell him that Starbucks’ dark roasted beans and flavor-adulterated drinks elicit scorn from the baristas at the independently owned cafes I patronize. Roasting beans until they turn black or near black, as Starbucks does, burns off a swath of coffee flavors—not a good strategy unless you are roasting commodity-grade or low-quality specialty-grade beans. A corporate behemoth with an anti-union record, selling beans that have declined in quality over the years, Starbucks is cast as the quality Antichrist by many of the hipster-ish folks who work in small cafes featuring speciality coffee. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Michaele-Weissman-at-Northside.jpg) [**My favorite coffee picture of me, taken in 2008, by roastermaster and coffee quality speciality Trish Rothgreb at the fabled Northside Social Cafe and Wine in Arlington, VA.*](https://www.northsidesocialva.com/location/arlington/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=are-you-a-coffee-snob&%5Fbhlid=be4750a8d9d031b4d389fcebf5275f2c7cd09997) Paul Scott is the general manager of [**Takoma Bev Co**](https://www.takomabevco.com/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=are-you-a-coffee-snob&%5Fbhlid=c1e860274a3011f6c3ca15ea3bf7dc8471ba1854) in Takoma Park, Maryland, one of my go-to cafés. He admits that, when asked to make an oversized espresso drink à la Starbucks, baristas in his shop sometimes take offense. “Pride in craft does not justify treating any customer rudely,” he says, “but it may explain why it occurs.” Starbucks workers, Paul points out, spend their days pushing buttons on automatic espresso machines. At Takoma Bev Co and many other indie cafes, automation is unthinkable. Whether pulling shots by hand or serving pour-overs one at a time, baristas like this have a mission: to showcase each coffee’s uniqueness. Doing so requires technical expertise, encyclopedic knowledge of coffee varieties and regions, ongoing training and dedication. These qualities manifest themselves in every drink served. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Michaele-Weissman-pulling-a-shot.JPG) **Me, trying—and failing—to pull an espresso shot. These machines are persnickety and I was born without engineering facility.* Cate Razzook, the barista who runs the coffee program at the award-winning bakery and café [**Bread Furst**](https://breadfurst.com/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=are-you-a-coffee-snob&%5Fbhlid=82f50f4529274b187f3da9dd26c0fd6ee0328524), another of my local haunts, located in northwest Washington D.C., shares Paul’s high standards, although she offers another take on Starbucks. “The Starbucks brand is about foamed milk,” she says. “Customers think they love the coffee. But it's the milky mouthfeel.” > “Snobbery is about gatekeeping: you have to prove yourself to be let in.” — Cate Razzook Trained in chemistry, Cate migrated to specialty coffee after ten years working in labs. She denies being a coffee snob or any kind of a snob. “Snobbery is about gatekeeping: you have to prove yourself to be let in.” She believes in meeting customers where they are. Then, if they are willing, she can help them develop their sensory awareness. “When I started out in this business, I would taste every pour-over. Every espresso. I would catalogue. Notice little details,” says Cate. “I am an empiricist,” she continues. “I learn by doing.” Study led Cate to believe that physiology, the biology of taste, counts most when assessing coffee and understanding the coffee-drinking experience. However, she acknowledges that social factors play a part in taste preferences. Where and when you drink coffee, with whom you drink it, and other factors such as the aesthetic pleasure of drinking from a ceramic cup, play a part. But, in her view, “biology trumps all.” In other words, if you develop sensory awareness, you will know what is good and what is not good. “Snobbery has nothing to do with it.” > “If you can differentiate between Coke and Pepsi, you are able to taste the differences among coffees.” — Peter Giuliano Peter Giuliano agrees with Cate, up to a point. Peter is one of a handful of people who rewrote the business model of high-end coffee two decades ago. I traveled with him when reporting God in a Cup. Back then, Peter was a minority owner of Counter Culture Coffee, the North Carolina specialty roaster. Scholarly by nature, he is now Chief Research Officer of the [**Specialty Coffee Association**](https://sca.coffee/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=are-you-a-coffee-snob&%5Fbhlid=298675bae52decc5cdb94b5487b3a6b3f32c671b), and Executive Director of [**Coffee Science Foundation**](https://coffeescience.foundation/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=are-you-a-coffee-snob&%5Fbhlid=a1b651ddb00dc8fee0d3db81933840bc064865dc). I have never met a more skilled, disciplined or knowledgeable coffee taster than Peter. “If you can differentiate between Coke and Pepsi, you are able to taste the differences among coffees,” Peter tells me. In his view, you don’t need to be a trained professional to taste and render judgment about coffee. When reporting this article, I shared a theory I dreamed up with Peter: that coffee snobbery has two faces, one admirable and one less so. There’s the ability to physically discern quality. Some may call that snobby, but I think discernment is a good thing, open to all. The other side, I suggest, is sociological: snooty opinions about a person’s ability and right to pass judgment based on his or her economic status, education or geographic locale. Peter immediately poked a hole in my theory. “Haven’t you read Brillat-Savarin?” he asked. Jean Anthelme Brillat-Savarin was a French philosopher who wrote The Physiology of Taste. Published weeks before his death in 1826, this was arguably the most classic book on the joy and philosophy of gastronomy, and, no, I had not yet read it. “Brillat-Savarin said, ‘Tell me what you eat, and I will tell you what kind of man you are,’” explained Peter. 200 years ago, Brillat-Savarin saw the link between taste and social class. In modern times, this idea has been more fully developed. I could see Peter’s point. My fondness for single origin specialty coffee from, say, the East Guji region of Ethiopia, and my rejection of Cheetos, a food getting a lot of play in certain disruptive corners of foodie world, are both products of my social class and privilege. Brillat-Savarin was right: social class and taste are connected. That said, social factors are not everything when considering taste, physiological and otherwise. If it were, I would like the same coffee as Archie's wife, instead of sharing the same taste in coffee as the decades-younger barista from my local cafe. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/-Michaele-Weissman-on-Vacation-with-Hario.gif) **Making coffee while on vacation in New England. I never leave home without my stainless steel one-cup Hario Pour-Over with its special fluted filters.* Kent Bakke, former CEO of the Italian espresso machine company La Marzocco, has devoted his life to coffee and coffee technology. After retiring, he founded the [**Bakke Coffee Museum in Seattle.**](https://www.bakkecoffeemuseum.com/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=are-you-a-coffee-snob&%5Fbhlid=52c0556941a22e3ce7a90a508b1129fd974ac47a) Italians, Kent points out, are a nation of coffee lovers and coffee snobs. Proud to have manufactured the first espresso machine, thereby creating espresso, Italians believe their coffee is the best in the world. Still, Kent understands that love can be deceiving. “Here’s the thing,” the American-born Kent explained to me: the classic Moka, a stovetop espresso pot born in the 1930’s, seen in every Italian kitchen and fetishized by Italians as the only way to make espresso at home, had a design flaw. These machines failed to adequately control temperature during the brewing process. They burned the coffee. “That burned taste is what many Italians came to know and associate with coffee excellence,” Kent said. In the 1970’s and 1980’s, when the manufacturer modified the Moka pot to prevent burning, no one wanted the new machines. “People wanted what they knew. What was familiar.” Despite subjective factors like our preference for familiar flavors, Kent is not deterred in believing that coffee excellence is an attainable and worthy goal. > “If you want to sustain a note, you have to be consciously aware of raising the pitch of that note and maintaining it. Quality takes consistent attention to detail. It’s easy to let things slide…but when it is sustained, it is beautiful.” — Kent Bakke “Achieving coffee excellence is like singing,” Kent, a singer, tells me. “If you want to sustain a note, you have to be consciously aware of raising the pitch of that note and maintaining it. Quality takes consistent attention to detail. It’s easy to let things slide…but when it is sustained, it is beautiful.” Talking with Paul Scott, Cate Razzook, Peter Giuliano and Kent Bakke for this piece reminded me why I wrote God in a Cup. The passion and the idealism of many in the special industry inspired me then, and it inspires me now. Coffee professionals, however, are not the only coffee lovers. Consumers also love coffee, and they can also be coffee snobs. Some believe that the more you pay, the better the coffee must be. There is some truth to this, but the story is not so simple. Coffee beans that cost $100 per pound are not necessarily better than the beans I buy from Counter Culture, George Howell and other high quality roasting companies that cost around $20 for 12 ounces—not cheap, but not too expensive when you brew at home. The best illustration of this case is Kopi Luwak, the Indonesian coffee selling for $100 per pound. The brand advertises itself as the world’s most expensive coffee. The high price is based not on the care with which it is grown, harvested and roasted, but on its method of production. Kopi Luwak is pooped from civet cats who have snaffled up coffee beans from the forest floor. I’m not kidding. The animals consume the fruity pulpy exterior, after which the beans, which are hard and indigestible, travel through the animal’s intestines, where they are “processed naturally” and then expelled. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Indonesian-Civet-Cat.jpg) **A civet cat in Indonesia* In all my years of writing about coffee, I have never heard a coffee professional say a single good thing about the flavor profile of Kopi Luwak. Yet if you spend time online, you quickly learn that some consider it the ultimate snob coffee. There are grounds to suspect other highly touted, rare coffees with high snob appeal. Jamaica Blue Mountain and Hawaiian Kona are two coffees that derive their value from their provenance—the tiny patches of high mountain land on which they are grown—and their rarity. Bad guys recognizing the chance to cash in have been known to falsify the provenance of these and other high snob-value coffees. (Personally, I wouldn’t order expensive beans on the internet from any roaster I did not know.) Among non-professional coffee lovers, I differentiate between cost snobs and expertise snobs, who in their own view, and in mine, may not be snobs at all. Take the guy who recently posted this on Reddit: > Yesterday, while in the office, I took out my manual grinder, filled the hopper with fresh roasted beans, and proceeded to grind enough fresh coffee for my little 2 cup pour-over carafe. ... as I was grinding, my boss saw what I was doing and proceeded to announce that I was such a 'Coffee-snob' (jokingly) …. I offered him a cup and he took me up on it. After drinking the freshly brewed cup I made, he said "Wow! That is so much better than the K-cups we have in the office." I smiled, agreed with him, and told him that I prefer being called 'Coffee-aware' over a 'Coffee-snob.' Knowing the right grind setting, water to coffee grind ratio, grams of coffee, and allowing the coffee to bloom prior to brewing makes for a better experience than a quick cup from the office Keurig machine. It all comes down to being aware of the variables and not snobbery. — u/cswimc It’s easy for the coffee-neutral to be annoyed by the Reddit chap. Why, civilians ask, must the lovers of specialty coffee be so damned persnickety? I am not going to deny that other people’s passions can strike one as irrational, obsessional. Annoying. Still, it has been my privilege to dig beneath the surface of these questions. Bouncing around in jeeps on steep mountain roads with specialty coffee buyers who, hour after hour after hour, never tire of talking about coffee—its range of flavors, its geographic variations, how it is grown, harvested, processed, transported, roasted—from 9 in the morning until they fall asleep, I start to understand. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/Michaele-Weissman-with-Kim-Cook-and-Libby-Evans-in-Ethiopia.JPG) **In Ethiopia, at a coffee ceremony with photographer Kim Cook and Libby Evans of Sustainable Harvest. This picture was taken in 2006\. Back then, there weren't too many women in specialty coffee, but the ones who played a role were kick-ass.* “This book is a love story,” I wrote in the acknowledgements for God in a Cup. Specialty coffee is not about social status. It is about love for a beautiful product that sprang unbidden from the earth, adding to the pleasure of our days. Ethiopia, where coffee is said to have evolved, holds a special place in the hearts of many specialty coffee buyers who, for a variety of reasons, were not able to visit until 2004\. Yirgacheffe is coffee’s Eden. Here is a passage from God in a Cup where Peter Giuliano describes his first visit to Yirgacheffe. > Walking down the roads—our truck got stuck in the mud—we were smelling the smells of the forest. The birds were singing, and the children were laughing and running from hut to hut. The monkeys were screeching and the wind was rustling. I was swept away and grinning from ear to ear and my hair was standing up on my neck. Part of the thrill was feeling like I had finally arrived at a place I had been trying to get to for years, part of it was this odd feeling I had that I was home—that this was a place to which I was mystically connected. Peter is a coffee pro and a coffee scientist, a rational guy gifted with discipline and a sensitive palate. He is at home with biologists and physiologists. He is also a coffee poet, his words grounded in his enormous love for coffee, this fruit of the earth. For people like Peter, who care so much about the contents of the cup, their devotion to coffee is the opposite of snobbery. It’s love. --- Listen to the long form interview with Michaele about her coffee book and her rye bread memoir on the Modo di Bere Podcast: [**Season 2 Episode 9: Michaele Weissman on the Meaning of Bread**](https://www.mododibere.com/content/files/2026/08/michaele-weissman-rye-bread-marriage-utm%5Fsource-mododiberemagazine-beehiiv-com-utm%5Fmedium-newsletter-utm%5Fcampaign-are-you-a-coffee-snob-%5Fbhlid-fb6a9ba471f778fbe5f19c5d4c897a057bedb3aa.html) - Check out Michaele’s [**website**](https://michaeleweissmanwrites.com/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=are-you-a-coffee-snob&%5Fbhlid=a676759dc1d9a50c1b1b07d590dece564504862f) - Follow Michaele on [**Instagram**](https://www.instagram.com/michaeleweissman/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=are-you-a-coffee-snob&%5Fbhlid=93fa7ca331b9972b781c0a1e168a3021ef17a5ea) - Buy her latest book [**The Rye Bread Marriage**](https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-rye-bread-marriage-michaele-weissman/1142799660?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=are-you-a-coffee-snob&%5Fbhlid=cd0345cabc28427847d2fa59a9485c206d4e5be7) --- *Photos courtesy of the author, except for the Indonesian civet cat from tunart, via iStock* ### ▷S3E10 "The Woman Can": Angela and Marianna of Velenosi Wine URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e10-velenosi-wines/ Last updated: 2026-09-13T06:51:10.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-it/s3e4/angela-e-marianna-velenosi) Angela and Marianna Velenosi discuss the local wine grapes of Marche and Abruzzo, describing the history, flavors and names of white grapes like Verdicchio, Pecorino, and Trebbiano, and red grapes like Montepulciano and Lacrima. Hear some local sayings from Abruzzo, where Angela is from, and Marche, where her daughter Marianna grew up, and learn why Marianna describes the Marche region as “a gem that has not been discovered yet" in terms of tourism. Angela struck out on her own to build her wine company in the 1980’s, despite her family not understanding her aims at the time. She and her daughter Marianna tell the story about how they have decided to work together, along with Marianna’s brother, in order to continue representing the territories of Marche and Abruzzo with their family’s wines. Learn more about the Velenosi family's wines at [https://velenosivini.com/](https://velenosivini.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Follow them on instagram at [https://www.instagram.com/velenosivini/](https://www.instagram.com/velenosivini/?ref=mododibere.com) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DFq-6EStkzb/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DFq-6EStkzb/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DFYc5Q0yjD9/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DFYc5Q0yjD9/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript ## "The Woman Can" — 0:00 AV: It's our time. The woman can, in every sector. And in the wine, that is the big opportunity for the woman in the wine making, in the marketing, in the promotion. The woman in the winery is... have the good opportunity. ## Welcome to Modo di Bere — 0:26 RTB: Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. Today I'm so excited to have on the show Angela Piotti Velenosi and her daughter Marianna Velenosi, two winemakers in one family who have vines in the Italian regions of Le Marche and Abruzzo. Before we start the interview, I want to let you know that Modo di Bere is a listener supported podcast. Please visit patreon.com/mododibere to become a patron to sustain my work sharing stories about local culture through drinks and dialect. Angela started her own family company in 1984 with just two wines and nine hectares of vines. ## Angela and Marianna Velenosi — 1:27 Now her award winning wines are known all around the world. She has served as a wine consorzio president in Le Marche, and now also has a line of wines in the region of Abruzzo. Her daughter Marianna joined the company in 2019\. Angela, Marianna. Welcome. MV: Thank you. RTB: I'm excited to talk with you today about the local grapes of Le Marche and Abruzzo, but this is also a show about local sayings. Marianna, when we met this week at a wine lunch — your wines are delicious — by the way, you told me a saying about the city of Ascoli Piceno. ## A Saying from Ascoli Piceno — 1:58 MV: Yes. Actually, Ascoli Piceno is a very old town. So it was built in 1000 before Christ. So it's more ancient, older than the Roman Empire. And in Ascoli we have this saying, which is "Quando Ascoli era Ascoli, a Roma c'erano i pascoli." The translation is when Ascoli was already a town, in Rome there were only hills, so there was nothing. This is why, actually, the territory of Piceno is very old territory with a lot of history. It's beautiful to see, to visit, even if it's not so well known. As I always say, it's a well-kept secret of Italy because it has history. It has everything — mountains, sea, lakes, beaches and countryside. But people don't know about it. So it's like a gem which is not discovered yet. ## Where Is Le Marche? — 2:52 RTB: Can you tell us a little more about where Le Marche is located on the map? MV: Le Marche — it's a region which is located in central Italy, on the east coast. So we face the Adriatic Sea, Croatia — just to give you an idea. We are on the opposite coast, compared to Tuscany or Rome, which are on the west. Le Marche, and then above we have Abruzzo, because actually we have two wineries today — so one in Ascoli Piceno, which is in the south part of the region of Le Marche, and Prope, which is the Abruzzo winery, which is located in the north part of Abruzzo. So actually the two wineries are really close to each other. And this is why we are called the second winery, the one in Abruzzo, Prope — because in Latin it means close to, close by. So we wanted to take homage to the closeness, not only in terms of distance, but also in terms of a route, because actually my mom, she's from Abruzzo. So for us was a normal to start producing also the Abruzzo wines. RTB: Do you have a modo di dire from Abruzzo to tell us? AV: In Abruzzo? C'e un'altro dialetto. Okay. La strada, la via, si dice Rua, come i Francesi, la Rua... RTB: Do you want to translate for your mom? MV: Yes. Actually, the dialect is very different from Marche to Abruzzo. Even if you are so close, you know that in Italy, even from one town to the other, you change dialect. In Abruzzo, for example, the street, the road, in Italian, normally the word is strada, but in Abruzzo they say la rua. RTB: La rua. MV: La rua. ## Starting a Winery from Scratch — 4:29 RTB: I love this. This is great. So, Angela, many of the stories I hear in Italy are of a winemaking family that goes back many generations. But you started your own company in the '80s. What was that like for you? AV: When I started, I was 20, and my husband, Ercole, 25 — very young, but hard work, a big passion. Now we are one of the best companies in Italy. When we started, we had no money. We had no family that support us in this business. We had no famous DOC — because 40 years ago there were Rosso Piceno and Falerio dei Colli Ascolani, and no famous area, territory, because Piceno was an unknown area for the wine. When we started, I began with nine Cantine Sociali, cooperative, and one, two, three private producers. But — big, in Italiano si dice, incoscienza. MV: You know, when you are young, and you think that you can do whatever you want. RTB: Yes. AV: Yes, big incoscienza. But when you are young, you are, like, Forrest Gump. No? You run, run, every day. You don't take the time to think the problem. You run one morning, you wake up and say, wow, this is Velenosi. Velenosi now is 160 acres in the property. 2.5 million bottles sell in the world. 52, 53 countries where we export the wine. You say, wow. Now Velenosi is this? Yeah. Now Velenosi is this. ## Angela's Family Doubted Her Success — 6:40 RTB: You just started with the two — with the two wines. That's amazing. Yeah. Was this a big surprise to your family, this course in your life to become a winemaker? AV: My family doesn't support me and my husband but also them after 25 years remain surprised. RTB: Still. AV: Loro non avrebbero scommesso su di loro, non avrebbero puntato su di noi. MV: My mom's family, they didn't support the winery. They didn't think it might work. So, what she's saying is that they didn't bet on the winery. But then today, they realize what my mom and my father they have built in forty years. And even for them, it's a surprise. RTB: Yeah. Marianna, you told me a story about your grandfather seeing your mom on TV. MV: As I was saying, since they did not support my parents with the winery, they did not understand — especially my mom, because a woman 40 years ago in a countryside in the central part of Italy, which is a really rural part, was not usual to see a woman going around the world. AV: Leaving the children. MV: Leaving the children at home with father was something really unusual. So my grandfather wasn't okay with that. And he stopped talking with my mom for several years. But one day there is in Italy a big fair called Vinitaly. And during Vinitaly, my mom did an interview with Rai Uno, which is the national news. And then she left. She traveled to Australia. And when she arrived to Australia, she found a message on the phone of my grandfather, because my grandfather saw the interview and he realized what she was doing, and that it was not just for fun, but it was to build something for the territory and for the family itself. So from that moment on, they realized what she was doing. RTB: That's great. I'm glad that you were recognized. And I ask this question because I feel like in many families around the world, but certainly in Italy, sometimes it seems like there's this destiny — or this idea for which path the children should take. I'm glad that you had the courage and the vision to create something new in Le Marche. So what was it like for you? You did grow up in the winemaking family. Was this your vision for your future? Did you start learning a lot about wine when you were very young? ## Growing Up in the Vineyard — 9:12 MV: This is true. I mean, me and my brother, we really grow up in the vineyards. While our friends were playing in the fields, we were playing in the vineyards. We grow up in the cellar as well, because every summer we spent all the time in the winery seeing, you know, the production, even if we could not help. Actually, we did grow up in the winery. But this is a funny story. Both me and my brother, we knew that we wanted to work in the wine business, but at the beginning we were not sure that we wanted to work with the family. So both of us, we did two different careers. After my study, I started working for a French company, and I went there for an internship and I stayed for three years — while my brother, he did a different career. So he studied winemaking, and he did a PhD in winemaking techniques specialized on the yeast, and he was a researcher in wine. So he worked for the Public Center of Italian Public Center for researching in winemaking. And he also did a research with the University of Burgundy. At that moment, it was 2018, 2019, I guess — my mom thought that we didn't want to go back to the winery, even if we were in the wine business. ## Working with Family in Wine — 10:24 But one day, I was in Geneva, because I lived in Geneva, and I realized that I missed something in my life. So I wanted to go back home and to try, you know, to work with family and to see if it was okay. So I called my mom one day, and I said, oh, mom, what do you think if I come back and we try to work together? AV: Big surprise for me. MV: She was really shocked. She didn't expect that. AV: What is the problem? RTB: Are you okay? AV: She leave the boyfriend! MV: Oh, yeah, I had to leave a lot of things. I mean, work I liked, a really good company that wanted to invest in me. I also left my boyfriend because, you know, when you decide to move. AV: And about all the big money, big salary. And when she called me to come back in the winery, she thought, "I want the same salary." Oh, Marianna, you know. Velenosi is another company. But salary, house, housekeeping, and more and more — the car. She's expensive. RTB: Has she been a good return on your investment? Does she help make money for Velenosi? AV: The best investment. MV: The best ROI. RTB: How do you enjoy working together? MV: It wasn't — AV: Not the first time. No. Not the first time. MV: The first year was really tough because she has a really strong character. I have a different personality. And at the beginning it wasn't easy, even, because we didn't know so much each other, because she spent all her life traveling. I spent ten years abroad, for studying and working. So actually, we didn't really know each other, so it was like getting to know each other in adult time — it's not the same as you grow up with a person. Especially — she thought that I might have the same attitudes that I did not have. Yeah. So the first year was quite tough, but also thanks to the people in the winery, that they realized, you know, these differences between us — so they helped us a lot. We found out the way to work together. And today, I mean, we have fun. AV: Yeah. Now is the best time together, best to work in Velenosi. But the first time, we have different character. I am strong. I don't cry. Marianna cry every moment. I am animal. Marianna is sensible — RTB: Sensitive. AV: So sensitive. Completely different. And the first years I needed to understand — our difference. But after — good, good, good, good choice. MV: And it was the same also with my brother, because when I went back to the winery in 2019, after a few months, my brother decided to come back as well. That we didn't expect, neither did they. We work all the three of us together, and it goes really well. RTB: Yeah, that's beautiful. I'm glad you were able to return and find this. And so now you all work together to tell the story of your territory. So maybe we can talk a little bit about the different wine grapes of Le Marche and a little bit Abruzzo. I really like the white grapes. MV: If we talk about Marche — so let's start with the Marche grapes. Probably the most well-known grape is Verdicchio. Verdicchio is the king of the grapes of the region, well known all around the world, the most awarded — one of the most awarded actually in Italy, not only the Marche. People know about Verdicchio, but sometimes they don't know where it comes from, because they have tasted it. You can find Verdicchio in almost every restaurant in New York, but they don't know where it comes from. And it comes from only from Le Marche. So Verdicchio is a real typical indigenous grape of Le Marche region. Today we also have another grape, which is the pecorino. But pecorino is a more recent grape variety, because it was rediscovered 30 years ago — it was already in the territory as a wild grape, but it wasn't really used, so it wasn't produced 100%. RTB: You told me this name for like a field blend. What was the name for the old white blend? ## Falerio: An Ancient Blend — 14:46 MV: Falerio. Actually, Falerio is one of the oldest appellations of Italy. AV: Falerio takes the name of the street, Roman street, Faleriense, Faleria. MV: Yeah, yeah. So it was the road that goes to Rome, because they used to take this wine, these grapes, through this road. And so they gave the appellation Falerio. So actually it's a really old appellation. And the Falerio is normally produced — it's a blend produced with Passerina, Pecorino, Trebbiano, three different grapes from the region of Le Marche. So 30 years ago, we only had Verdicchio and Falerio. Pecorino was rediscovered, and the producers of Marche, but also Abruzzo, started to inplant this new clone of pecorino. And today the only DOCG of pecorino we have is in Offida, which is really close to Ascoli Piceno, where we are. And the DOCG was born in 2011\. Pecorino is a grape that is growing a lot in notoriety all around the world, and has some amazing characteristics, such as Verdicchio. Which are versatility, longevity. So there are two important grapes today. ## Verdicchio vs. Pecorino — 15:56 RTB: Can you talk a little bit about how the wines usually taste? MV: Yes. So they're really different. Verdicchio has the name, says, because Verdicchio comes from verde, which means green — the color. Not only because the color of the skin is really greenish, but also because of the notes of the wine. So you will find these greenish notes, like a green apple and a— AV: Green pepper. MV: Green pepper. But what is really typical of Verdicchio dei Castelli di Jesi is the feeling of like an almond — a little bit bitter aftertaste. This is the typical DNA of Verdicchio. There are two appellations, Castelli di Jesi and Matelica. AV: Matelica is a very small area, not too far the sea. MV: While the pecorino actually is completely different — it's a more structured white wine that goes more to the fruity part, peach, apple, but more crunchy. AV: More exotic fruit. Sometimes, especially with the hot vintages — we are realizing that the pecorino, the DOCG areas, which is different compared to pecorino you can find in other places, is going more to the exotic notes. ## Tasting Notes: Green Apple to Passion Fruit — 17:07 RTB: I get some melon, some green melon, like a honeydew melon, or even like, if you go to a Japanese restaurant, a sushi restaurant in New York, they give you these melon candies at the end of the meal. And that always makes me think of pecorino! AV: Passion fruit. A lot of passion fruit. RTB: Passion fruit is wonderful. AV: Yeah. Yeah. ## What is the Transumanza? — 17:29 RTB: I just recently learned this wonderful word, transumanza. So why is it called pecorino? And what is the transumanza? MV: The transumanza is actually — it's a really old tradition where the shepherd took the sheep all the way from the Apennine. The Apennine is the big mountain chain that we have in Italy that goes along all Italy. So it starts from the north and goes until the south of Italy — it's like a spine. So the shepherd took the sheep from the north to the south during summertime. AV: May, June. MV: They started this transumanza. So it's like a long trip, but with the sheep. And when they pass by the Marche region, they noticed that the sheep started to eat the pecorino grapes, which was really unusual, because sheep normally eat grass, not grapes. The shepherd and the people of the villages nearby started to call this white grape pecorino. Because of the pecora, the sheep. Today it's easy to remember because of the pecorino cheese. RTB: Yeah! MV: Everybody knows the pecorino cheese. It's an amazing grape to work with. RTB: And I'm asking this question with regard to the name of the grape pecorino. So that's wonderful. \[music\] Now there's another, maybe not quite as rediscovered grape, but a rarer red grape that I love, which is lacrima. MV: Oh, yes. RTB: Can you tell me a little bit about lacrima? AV: Lacrima is a very unique grapes. It's a small area. Lacrima di Morro d'Alba — some people say Morro d'Alba is in Piedmont — no, it's a village in the Marche region. When we have the best harvest, the best vintage, all producer can produce in totally 1 million bottle — it's a very exclusive wine. It's a very small, small production. The big surprise is you taste the red wine. But if you close the eye and drink the wine, you remain surprised, because — is it the same flower, the same notes of the white wine! Violet, roses — remain with the closed eyes. And when you taste the wine in the nose, you feel the white wine. When you drink, you remain surprised. Wow, is the red wine acidity. Tannin. It's a very nice wine. The wine for the younger people, for the women. The wine for fat food, like salumi, like sausage, like eggs — is a very, very nice wine for aperitivo. It's a surprise wine. When I stay in the testing, the people say, what is this? Wow. I call a lacrima wow wine. ## How the Lacrima grape got its Name — 20:29 RTB: And why is it called lacrima? MV: Lacrima, actually, in Italian means tear. Because the skin of the grape is so thin that when it pass, even by one day, the maturation, the skin opens itself, and there is a drop of liquid that pops out. So if you go in the vineyard in that moment, you'll have like the impression that the vineyard is crying, AV: tick-tick-tick-tick! MV: And this is why it's hard to work with the lacrima, because when you have really to pay attention to the maturation phase. So it's a really sensitive and sensible. AV: Also the vines doesn't have the longer life. The vineyard can have 25, 30 \[years\]. Not too much. ## Preserving Rare Grape Varieties — 21:12 RTB: And so it takes a lot of devotion to maintain the biodiversity, even when some of the grapes or vines are not as easy to take care of. So thank you for making sure that we still have lacrima and we still have pecorino, and we are rediscovering these things, because I think they're beautiful. So we started with more the rare red grape. But of course Montepulciano and with a bit of Sangiovese is what I'm most familiar with in Le Marche. But also in Abruzzo, Montepulciano is kind of the red and the white is Trebbiano d'Abruzzo, no? So maybe we could talk a little bit about those grapes. ## Montepulciano and Trebbiano d'Abruzzo — 21:48 MV: When we talk about Abruzzo, definitely we have to talk about Montepulciano. Montepulciano is one of the most produced red wine of Italy. Speaking about numbers, only of Montepulciano, Italy produces 3 million hectoliters of wine — so it's one of the most well-known wines of Italy. But Montepulciano can be an amazing grape. Where we produce, we produce Montepulciano in the north part of the region, which actually, it's a really small portion of the total production of Montepulciano. We produce Montepulciano in the north part of the region of Abruzzo — so in Colline Teramane, which is a small portion of the total production of Montepulciano, because 90% of the Montepulciano grape is produced in the Pescara and Chieti area, which is the center-south of the region of Abruzzo, while only 10% is produced in the north part, so in the province of Teramo. In that part we also have an important DOCG of Montepulciano, Colline Teramane DOCG. You know, the Italian appellation DOCG is the most important — it's most difficult to produce, because it requires to follow a lot of rules that goes from the vineyard, like the rendement per hectare, the yield per hectare, and to the cellar. So for example, the alcohol level or the aging process. But the result is that we can have the best expression of the Montepulciano d'Abruzzo. Regarding Trebbiano, I guess I mean Trebbiano — everybody knows that Trebbiano is one of the most popular grape in Italy, because it has been planted all over Italy, actually, in the old times, because— AV: If you think Lugana and the Soave, it is the same family. MV: It comes from the same family. So actually you can find Trebbiano all over Italy, but with different name, as my mom was saying — Lugana, Soave. So they're all part of the same family of Trebbiano. But what we have in Abruzzo, it's a specific clone called Trebbiano d'Abruzzo. But Trebbiano was so used because it's a generous grape variety. So back to 80, 90 years ago, they wanted to plant Trebbiano, because Trebbiano had an important yield per hectare. Planting Trebbiano was a sure value, you know, like cash money. But today we interpret Trebbiano with a different point of view, because we want to valorize the typical grape of Trebbiano d'Abruzzo. ## A Grape, Not a Town — 24:19 RTB: So as far as Montepulciano, I always like to mention there is another episode about the Sangiovese from the town of Montepulciano. That wine is also referred to as Montepulciano. But we're talking here about the grape, which makes a lovely dark-fruited, delicious wine that can be very approachable but also very elegant. Your red wines have won a lot of awards, and I think they're very delicious. I was really excited to taste them this week. ## Advice for Visiting Le Marche — 24:47 Thank you so much for being with us today. Is there anything else that you would like our listeners to know about Le Marche, about the wines, about life, anything? AV: Le Marche is the unique region with the plural the name. Le Marche. Because Le Marche is the jewel, is a treasure to discover. In Le Marche you can have the good holiday, because there is the 180 kilometers of coast, where there are 26 village, long along the coast, where you can spend the time for the holiday. But Le Marche is the region with the beautiful mountain — Appennino mountain — there is the beautiful sea, Adriatic sea, the beautiful hill. All the region is — 70% is hill, lake, rivers. But it's the religion, because we have Loreto, Madonna di Loreto — La Madonna Black di Loreto is a very beautiful region where the people can spend the time, good time, and can drink wonderful wine. Verdicchio, pecorino, and montepulciano. ## Visciole: Wine with Cherries — 26:04 RTB: Yes. That's great. I visited another city with the Black Madonna in Calabria. That's really interesting. Oh, there's one more wine that I've never seen elsewhere in Italy. The wine with the cherries. MV: Ah, le visciole. RTB: Yeah! Is that a Le Marche specialty? MV: Yes, actually, it's a really old recipe that comes from the Middle Ages, because, you know, in the Middle Ages, wine techniques, winemaking was not so like it is today. I mean, so they used to blend wine with syrups. In this way, they can make the wine last longer. So it was the syrup, since it has sugar, is like an anti-oxidation for the wine. When we wanted to produce a dessert wine, we wanted to take back a really old recipe from Middle Ages. And we decided to blend the lacrima — this special grape from Marche — with a cherry syrup, wild cherry syrup, that comes from the region of Le Marche, that are called visciole. AV: It's like a Marena. RTB: Yeah! AV: They're the same. The same type. RTB: I haven't tasted your version of this. I've had another one. And I thought it was so charming and delicious. So if someone tells you, do you want to try this drink of wine and cherries from Le Marche — say yes. \[music\] ## It's Time for Women in Wine — 27:26 Thank you so much. L'intervista è anche disponibile in Italiano. Il podcast si chiama Modo di Bere Italiano. But I want to ask you, how do you see, Angela — things being different? There are many more women working in wineries today. How have things changed, and what's your — what's your opinion? You've changed it, right? MV: I started working in the wine business in the last ten years, and I can say that there is no — there is no problem for women working in this sector, in this business today. So I can just speak about what I see today. And today there are no doors closed for a woman. On the opposite side, there is new opportunities that we can exploit because we are women. There are a lot of associations, organizations of women in wine. I don't see any limit today, but I guess 40 years ago, for the— AV: It's the time, for the woman. It's our time. The woman can, in every sector. And in the wine, there is the big opportunity for the woman in the winemaking, in the marketing, in the promotion. The woman in the winery is... have the good opportunity. RTB: Brava, brave. Thank you for your work. Thank you for your wines. And thank you for being with us today. AV: Thank you for give us the voice, our region, our company, and at the woman. RTB: Yes! I hope to visit one day. I hope that you all consider Le Marche as a place to visit, a place to go on vacation. And to all of our listeners, wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Support us on Patreon! *\[NOTE: We are no longer using Patreon! Become a member* [*right here*](https://www.mododibere.com/#/portal/) *to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\]* Grab the newsletter at Modo di Bere.com and subscribe to the YouTube channel at Modo di Bere to watch the travel show. Modo di Bere TV. Music for the show was composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou. Purchase their music at the link in the notes. Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Italian Slang & American Cheese ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e11-giulia-alvarez-katz/) [ Picturing Gibraltar ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e9-penelope-flyaway-girl-gibraltar/) ### Neighborhood Bars in Sevilla URL: https://www.mododibere.com/travel-guides/the-best-bars-in-sevilla/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:59:40.000Z Looking back on the tapas, sherries and cocktails from my favorite bars in Sevilla filled me with a sensation I gradually realized was not hunger, but love. I love the bars of this city, I love the neighborhood of Triana, and I will visit and revisit the places on my list as many times as I can. Two weeklong class trips to Sevilla with the [Xianix Barrera Flamenco](https://www.xianix.com/?ref=mododibere.com) in 2023 and 2024 facilitated my studious research into the city’s best bars. I quickly found bars so good that I spent many of my consumption opportunities on repeat visits, a limitation I do not regret any more than I regret my focus on the neighborhood of Triana, which is not at all. [Unlock the locations!](https://www.patreon.com/MododiBere/posts/best-bars-in-for-120259423?source=storefront) ### Quotes from RT's guide to the best bars in Sevilla for delicious tapas and authentic vibes: “This neighborhood bar in Triana is the definition of a hidden gem. Every morning, the owners bring out the family songbirds and hang their cages from the trees on the sidewalk outside. ” “I may or may not restrain myself from drinking the golden broth after I’ve finished dipping the fries that come with the albóndigas caseras.” ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Best-Bars-in-Sevilla.jpg) **Purchase the guide to** [**unlock the locations**](https://www.patreon.com/MododiBere/posts/best-bars-in-for-120259423?source=storefront) **of these incredible neighborhood bars!** ### ▷S3E9 The Flyaway Girl at Home in Gibraltar URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e9-penelope-flyaway-girl-gibraltar/ Last updated: 2026-09-15T07:55:04.000Z Travel creator Penelope aka The Flyaway Girl shares the romantic story of how she came home to Gibraltar. From the sound of Llanito, the local language, to the flavor of frozen Sun Cola in a sawed-off carton, Penelope paints a delicious picture of the territory built on a historic rock. This is especially impressive given that Penelope is a photographer with aphantasia, the inability to visualize images in her mind. Penelope didn't learn to take photos to supplement her travel writing; she came into travel creation from photography, her urgent passion from a young age. Penelope shares her philosophy of sustainable travel and her love of languages and explains how Brexit has affected every day life for the residents and workers on this 6.8-kilometer peninsula. This is an episode for people who love history, linguistics, mythology, geography and adorable baby monkeys. It will make you want to visit Gibraltar. To plan your trip, you can refer to Penelope's [one-day itinerary](https://theflyawaygirl.com/one-day-in-gibraltar-itinerary/?ref=mododibere.com) for visiting Gibraltar, alongside her travel content from all over the world, at her website: [The Flyaway Girl](https://theflyawaygirl.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Follow Penelope on [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/the%5Fflyaway%5Fgirl/?ref=mododibere.com) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/p/DFV9OP2SiAJ/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/p/DFV9OP2SiAJ/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DFGvU3oI5Rr/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by Penelope | Hidden Gems & Travel Beyond Hotspots (@the\_flyaway\_girl)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/DFGvU3oI5Rr/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript ## Gibraltar's Linguistic Diversity — 0:00 P: It is an absolute just mishmash of different cultures, different languages. I can walk down the street at any time and I will hear English, Spanish, Llanito, Arabic, in particular Moroccan Darija. And then that's not even like including all the lines you hear from tourists visiting as a language lover. RTB: I love it all. Gibraltar sounds amazing. ## Welcome to Modo di Bere — 0:27 RTB: Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. ## Meet Penelope, The Flyaway Girl — 0:53 RTB: I'm so excited to be speaking with today's guest, Penelope Louise, a travel writer who lives in Gibraltar and reports on underrated destinations on her blog The Flyaway Girl. Originally from Britain, Penelope speaks English, German and conversational Spanish. She's currently studying Japanese. Penelope's work is focused on hidden gems around the world, which is her way of promoting sustainable travel. Penelope, welcome. P: Thank you. RTB: Before I start the interview with Penelope, I want to let you know that Modo di Bere is a listener supported program. Please take a moment now to visit Patreon.com/mododibere to become a supporter today. *\[NOTE: We are no longer using Patreon! Become a member* [*right here*](https://www.mododibere.com/#/portal/) *to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\]* Penelope, I'm so impressed by all your travels. I see on your blog and your Instagram. How many countries have you visited at this point? ## 61 Countries and Counting — 1:32 P: I think at last count it was 61\. I want to say it's definitely 60 plus. I think it's 61. RTB: That's amazing. How many countries are there in the world? I feel like I'd have to Google that. \[crosstalk\] Oh now, that's a good question. P: That's a good question. That depends on, what number you're using, because there are various, like, ways of measuring how many countries that are like what the UN recognized countries, which I'm not going to state the number because I know I'll get it slightly wrong. That someone will absolutely call me out for that. But it's definitely over 200. ## Defining Sustainable Travel — 2:00 P: So. Okay. Now I'm not I'm not quite all the way there, but we're on our way there. RTB: Do you have that goal to visit everywhere? P: I would like to, but whether it's really like feasible necessarily, then that's to be seen. I want to see everywhere in terms of the factor. I'd love to see everywhere, but I don't want to just visit a place for the sake of ticking it off a list. RTB: That makes sense. So, Penelope, how do you define sustainable travel and how does your work fit into that? ## The Cost of Overtourism — 2:38 P: For me, sustainable travel and sustainable tourism is just all about not having a negative impact on the place that you're visiting and on the world around you. It means completely different things to different people. So if for some people it's avoiding flying as much as possible, for some people they much prefer traveling by train. And I'm also the same like when I when I travel around Spain, I'd much prefer to take the train rather than flying, but sometimes the convenience of rides, the environmental friendliness, the cost is a barrier for a lot of people. I often had this issue when I lived in the UK, where it was be so expensive to take a train, let's say from where I used to live, which was near Southampton. I was looking at taking the train up to Leeds to visit a friend. It was cheaper for me to fly, which is absolutely wild to me, like it shouldn't be cheaper to fly than to get the train. So for me, sustainable travel is all about not having any negative impact on the place I'm visiting and leaving a place. Hopefully the same or better than how I came there. Whether that's by talking to local people and understanding more about how they want people to experience their destination. Learning the language which for me, I. I'm an absolute language nerd. I study languages in university. I've taught myself languages just for fun, like I was that child. So that's that's kind of what it is for me. And just finding the places, visiting the places that aren't necessarily on most tourist itineraries. RTB: When you say negative ways, what are some of the ways that people do have a negative impact or leave a place worse than you know? What should people avoid if they're trying to travel sustainably? ## Barcelona's Anti-Tourist Protests — 4:21 P: There's a massive issue around the world at the moment of overtourism, and it's not a new issue. A lot of people will put it down to places going viral on social media, but in all honesty, maybe that's exacerbated it, but it didn't cause it in the first place. There's a lot of backlash from influencers sharing places on social media, and so that caused the problem. Let's use Kyoto in Japan as an example. It's really been suffering from overtourism, certain areas like Eon recently. And they put like bans on tourists being able to go into some areas. And a lot of people blame it on, let's say, like Instagram influencers. People posting on social media about it. But the thing is, this was a place that was mentioned and is still mentioned in every single guidebook you read about Japan and about Kyoto. So it frustrates me a little that people kind of think it's a bit of a new issue where it's really not. To me, overtourism has so much of a negative impact on places it prices out locals. We've seen that recently with the protests in Barcelona and now I don't agree with how they were protesting. I don't agree with basically assaulting tourists to make your point. That should never be how it is. But I do understand where they were coming from in terms of we can't afford to live in the place where we're from, in the place where we work. When I moved to Berlin, I did a year abroad as part of my degree. It was so hard to find somewhere to live because everywhere people wanted to rent it out for Airbnb to tourists, because it made so much more money than someone having that accommodation for 12 months in a few. ## A Hot Take on Influencers — 6:02 RTB: And in New York City as well. In our case, the the city has recently regulated Airbnb a little bit more. So there's certainly some systemic issues that can be addressed not just by one person. Hot take on hating on influencers. By the way. Let me know what you think of this. I think we've got two things there that are really psychologically satisfying in terms of blaming someone. One is new technology, which for better or worse, right or wrong, is always a nice boogeyman, right? We're always like, that's how it works. It's like like. P: Oh, cause of the problem. When we went from a horse and carriage. RTB: Not to say that there aren't positive and negative changes with anything. This idea of what an influencer is and this kind of kneejerk negative reaction, I feel like everybody all over the world is always taking pictures with their phones. Everybody. If you go to any sort of concert or anything, everyone is watching it through the small screen, everybody. But as far as the people who actually go ahead and do well on social media, especially in the travel space, I feel like a lot of them are women. So there's this sort of image of like a woman having a good time that is sort of weirdly radical. Also, in terms of what it's like to be a woman on the internet. Do you feel like I'm onto anything there? P: I think a little bit. I think in a way, a little bit of it is jealousy. I don't think that's the only reason. But for some people, I definitely think that is that issue with it. They're not doing it. So they're going to vilify the people who do. I'm not going to deny that. Are some influences who do cause problems, who are disruptive. You've seen YouTube videos of people being so disrespectful to sacred site. It's not a case of, oh, there's no bad influencer, they're all bad eggs because of anything. It's the same way people vilify tourists like tourists bad. Or in my case, British tourists are bad. You get such a bad rep. I get such a bad rap as a Brit and I'm like, no, I don't even drink. RTB: Do you drink alcohol? P: Okay. It's one of those things, like you have a few bad actors and people just whore everyone with the same brush, and it is unfortunate. And it's why a lot of us who are in like the travel influencing industry. I moved away from using the term influencer to describe my work 4 or 5 years ago, because it started getting this seriously bad reputation, and everyone just assuming you're just trying to get free things out of everyone, you're just trying to exploit hotels and things like this. This really weird vilification of influencers just by virtue of they're called an influencer. ## Finding Love through Travel — 8:26 RTB: Can you first tell us how you ended up living in Gibraltar in the first place? P: So that is indeed quite the tale. So I didn't know that much about Gibraltar. Like turn the clock back. Let's call it five and a bit years. I didn't really know anything about it. I mean, I knew of its existence, but that was about it. I never really thought of visiting. I don't know why, actually, because knowing more about it, I'm like, oh no, this is a place that really should have interested me. But I guess you don't know anything about somewhere. Then you don't know. I was traveling in Bosnia of all places. I was in Mostar, and I was traveling back through Mostar on my way to go to split, where I was flying home from. So I'd already been through a muster. I wasn't there to really see anything. I was mainly just there to break up the journey from Sarajevo. I didn't want to go find somewhere different to eat. I'm lactose intolerant and I knew a place where they could cater for me and I was like, oh, I don't have to think. I'm just going to go to this restaurant. And so I'll go to this restaurant. And there was this group of three guys chatting to this. I think they were connecting a couple. They were just chatting. I'm by myself eating, you know, you're overhearing someone's conversation. I don't really know what they're talking. I you talk about doing, like road trips around the world or driving in different places, and then it comes up that they can remember the German word for motorway, me being the little nerd that I am, and also a German speaker. I just like piped up. I was like, it's Autobahn. Just like just just, you know, and the group of the three guys, they all sounded British. They invited me to join their table. We got chatting. I got on quite well with one of the guys. Isn't a little bit shy. But we got on really well. We ended up going to a bar nearby. I drank alcohol at that time, so that was. That was a lot of raki involved. I stayed in touch with one of the guys who, was in the group. The shy one? Yeah, the shy one. We stayed in touch. We talked so much. I went on a trip to Georgia and Armenia, basically talked the entire time. So I had this press trip to Agadir in Morocco coming up. I have like a few friends who might normally be my plus one, or my mom and my dad. No one was available and I was just like, oh my God, is this insane to ask? Like, I've only met this person once, but I was like, crazy question, do you want to be my first one? And he said yes. So technically our first date was a five day trip to Morocco. RTB: I have to say, sometimes when you go on a trip with somebody, you know, sometimes that works out and sometimes it doesn't. So how did it work out for you? P: Well, we're now engaged. So pretty well. RTB: He's from Gibraltar, right? P: He's also. Yeah. ## Moving to Gibraltar in Lockdown — 11:07 RTB: So how did you end up moving to Gibraltar? P: That is another funny story. Well, I never actually planned on moving to Gibraltar. I was, like, coming back and forth from between where I lived in the UK and Gibraltar. Because I worked myself doing my travel content creation full time at that time. So I would come visit for a few weeks, then go back home or go on trips, different places. And then I was came to stay for a month in February 2020\. Then lockdown happened. So all of a sudden I had to make this decision. Did I want to go back home and stay with my parents and then not know when I'd be able to come back to Gibraltar or stay? My parents had no issue with me staying. I mean, like, we kind of all assumed it wouldn't be that long. Yeah, I'm still here. RTB: So it felt right and it worked out. P: And my parents have actually since moved to Spain and sold the house in the UK, so. RTB: Oh that's great. So they're a little bit closer. That's that's amazing. Oh. ## Gibraltar 101: Common Misconceptions — 12:04 RTB: Tell us about Gibraltar. Give us the Gibraltar guide for the person who's almost never heard of the place. Give us some misconceptions and then set up the Strait of. P: Gibraltar is a British overseas territory. So you may have heard of Falkland Islands. We are a British overseas territory and we are located on the very south of Spain, only 6.8km². So really small territory. And yet we are a territory. We don't call ourselves a country more so not a county. So we actually don't have our own MP in the UK, we have our own parliament. One misconception is people are referred to as a colony. We are not a colony. People here get very upset if you call them a colony. Gibraltar has its own parliament. We have our own elections. I've lived here long enough now that I vote in elections here, and obviously I can't vote in the normal UK ones anymore. That's not our government. We have our own health system, our own health service, like our own police. The only thing we do rely on the UK for is defense. So, certain parts of the military in particular, like the Navy, do rely on the UK for that. But it does have its own military. There's an army, but generally, navy wise, it tends to rely on the UK. ## Where Is Gibraltar? — 13:15 RTB: Okay. And where is Gibraltar? P: If you think of a map of Spain, you've got Portugal on your left hand side. And then we go down. You end up going across the Strait of Gibraltar very well across to Morocco. So that be just above Morocco and south of the Spanish, autonomous community of Andalusia. You'll find Gibraltar right there. We border the Spanish region of the town. The other side of the border is called La Línea de la Concepción. Or it's actually like the line of conception, literally the town. The other side of the border is just called the line. ## Brexit and the Border — 13:52 RTB: What's it like crossing the border? P: This is where it's massively over the past. I say like four years thanks to Brexit. It used to be so easy you would just wave your ID, you could travel on just your like Gibraltar ID, Spanish ID and if just ID you didn't need your passport, probably should have done, didn't need to. But now I get stamped every time I cross the border. I have to prove that I have accommodation when I go into Spain. That they're really strict. The border now. My friend flew to Spain, flew to Malaga. Didn't have to show any proof of accommodation or over ten flight. Whereas me crossing the border to go visit my parents, I have to show that I have a proof of accommodation and that has to be a hotel. I have to be like I'm staying with my parents. Brexit is really complicated things and it's basically made a bit of a political minefield at the border. RTB: You're basically living in kind of a small town, like, I feel like a lot of people in a border area would cross the border, go shopping and come back. Is this filling up the pages in your passport really fast? P: Well, it was until we had to stop providing like proof of accommodation. I finished my last possible I finished in less than two years. It fills up in less than two years. Now, obviously you have to provide like proof that I'm staying somewhere and it has to be like an actual hotel booking. So I go a lot less often, which is a shame. I tend to visit my parents, like on the way back from something like, say, I've got to stay up in Malaga for something, or I book on the trip and I'm back to the airport, like I'll visit. And then that. RTB: Sounds like a drag for you. I'm sorry. P: It's pain. It is pain at the moment. My fiance is fine, so he has a red ID card, which is basically he's permanent resident here, whereas I'm not. I have like a civilian registration card because I'm a non permanent resident. I've to obviously renew my residency every so often. Essentially it's like whether you have citizenship versus a green card. ## The Languages of Gibraltar — 15:42 RTB: I want to hear a little more about the history of Gibraltar and what it's like for a person to visit. But let's start with language. So talk to me about language in Gibraltar. P: This is always something that really confused people when they come here. Because while yes, we do all speak English here, that's not really what you're going to hear. A lot of the time you'll hear a lot of Spanish, mainly because we have a lot of frontier workers across frontier workers. And this is also another reason why Brexit is very complicated here. Right now. Comment to the number of for my head. But it's thousands. We have thousands of people who cross the border every single day to come into Gibraltar to work, and that's why the people simply live in Spain and work in Gibraltar. Or they are Spanish as well. A lot of people from La Linea were in Gibraltar because there's more jobs here, and they do tend to pay better because our cost of living is higher. So salaries are therefore higher. So if you live in Spain, especially some of the areas just across the border, rent is so much lower. But if you're earning a Gibraltar salary, then you can do pretty well. So you'll hear a lot of Spanish from across frontier workers. A lot of people here also do speak some Spanish. A lot of people here have Spanish relatives or say a Spanish grandmother. But then you'll also hear what sounds like Spanish at first. But it's not, because then you'll hear English words, and then you hear words at English or Spanish, and that is Llanito, which is also pronounced Yanito. Yanito. Whichever way you want to pronounce it, you pronounce it differently. When people do speak Spanish here, as well, it is with a very Andalusian accent. So the double L in Spanish is quite small, like a G. Yeah, so you'll hear like caje instead of calle, boteja instead of botella, It's quite a different way of speaking here. The language here is Llanito and it is, I would say it is a Creole. I don't know if linguists would disagree with me putting that label on it, but in my unprofessional opinion, it's essentially a Creole because it is a language that has aspects of Spanish, in particular Andalusian Spanish, English in particular British English. ## A Language Built from Everywhere — 17:51 P: And then it also has aspects of languages like Judeo Spanish. So Haketia, from Maltese, from Genoese, Ligurian dialect, even some, I believe from Portuguese and Arabic and Berber like. There's so much like within this one language basically just grew out of all the different nationalities who lived here. We had a lot of people who came from Genoa want to say around the 17th century. Yeah, it just developed out of that and it is so interesting. But unfortunately, the best thing is, is that it is dying because a lot of younger people don't necessarily use it so much. You tend to mainly hear the older generation speaking it. That to me is it's sad and I want to see more to protect it here. ## Llanito Sayings, Explained — 18:33 RTB: Well, let's talk about it today. I think you have some sayings that you wanted to share with us, which you know, is our specialty here at Multi Berry. Oh look, you've got a dictionary that is so cute. So they recently. P: Released this book and it's like the Llanito dictionary. I was going through this with my fiancé and I was like, which ones have you heard. So. But his parents are British, so he didn't grow up speaking Llanito at home, which some people do, but he also heard it a lot in school. It's quite funny, the ones he knows, because a lot of them kind of like related to what you hear in school. So one of the first ones that he told me about was a phrase that, well, it's what's the word? Let's just push this. Not really any standardized way of writing it though, which is the other very confusing thing. So you'll see this written is like P-U-R-I-S-H. Some places we'll put it P-U-R-I-X-X, almost in like a Galician way of pronouncing the X. It's like a purish. It's like if you have a you've have like tag right in school and in baby like, oh no, no, like I'd say I'm safe. You can't get if you can't get me that here you say purish. RTB: So instead of crossing your fingers you say purish. Oh. That's funny. Do you know that? What what it means besides that use I did. P: Look, look it up before. It doesn't seem to have, like, a proven fluency. If you like full evidence where it's from, some places say it could derive from the English word like poor ish. That doesn't make too much logical sense to me, but I did see other some other places that said it came from a Judeo Spanish language. I don't know if I'll ever know, but it is. It is a common playground. RTB: What what other sayings did you find out about so many? ## Keke and Pankeke — 20:17 P: One of my favorite ones is where cake and pancakes. In Spanish, cake is torta, crepa is pancake in Spanish. I can't think of it all of a sudden. Here, cake you say keke and pancake? Okay. RTB: Oh that's adorable. P: Which is quite cute. I'm not gonna lie. Everywhere here has, like, local names. So that is. That is something I always have to remember when I'm writing my blog post as well. Everyone here refers to one square as piazza. It is not called Piazza. Officially, its actual name is John Mackintosh Square. But if you said, I'll meet your John Mackintosh Square to someone, they would just look at you like, why are you being so formal? But if you say to someone, are you a piazza? And then not from here? No, we're going to find it on Google Maps, right? ## Proverbs in Llanito — 21:00 RTB: Right, right. What about in terms of like Proverbs or kind of longer phrases to stick, just to give us a little more sense of the language? ## "If You Don't Ask, You Don't Get" — 21:17 P: He was one. So I basically asked around a lot of my friends who, done though I was like, tell me what? Like sayings that you guys would use or you guys know. So this is what one of my former colleagues actually suggested. The phrase is kicks por si pega, which makes no sense in English or Spanish. And it basically means like if you don't ask, you don't get apparently a lot of these kind of like sayings. They come from sayings that people use when playing the game of marbles. RTB: Oh really? P: Which is the most random origin story ever? Yeah, but the amount of times I was looking up stuff in the, in the Llanito dictionary talking about my fiance, it was like from games of marbles. Why is everything from games of marbles? RTB: Well, I think if you don't ask, you don't get is some, you know, pretty useful. You can sit there. P: Pixel data. RTB: All right. P: What else? One that I really enjoy because similar way of saying this in Wales as well. A lot of the phrases in Llanito are basically taken from very literally translating Spanish. This one I love and it's I'll do it now a bit later. ## "I'll Do It Now, a Bit Later" — 22:09 RTB: I'll do it now, a bit later. P: Yes. Which is that doesn't make sense. You can't do it now and a bit later. RTB: How does that make sense culturally? P: So apparently it comes from the Spanish hour long ago. And like now I'll do it. But then I don't really know how this has come to this, but I just love that it has. RTB: Oh okay, so it does mean now. But logo became Luigi go. P: Yeah, I think so. RTB: I'll do it now, became now and. P: Later I'll do it now a bit later. RTB: Oh that's so interesting. P: Oh no. But it does mean I'll do it in a bit. RTB: It doesn't mean I'll do it now. It means I'll do it later. P: Also, we're much more aligned with like Spanish timekeeping than we are with British timekeeping. I'll do it now is still later. ## How Much Llanito Do You Hear? — 23:00 RTB: So when you're in Gibraltar and as you're living there, how much shiny toe do you hear as you're going about your life? P: Quite a bit. Obviously, if you're not from here, people aren't going to just speak to you in Llanito. So for example, if you're like ordering in a restaurant, you may be speaking Spanish because a lot of the, hospitality staff, tend to be from Spain. So it's a bit of a mix, like some people will just use Spanish. Like I tend to just chat with them in Spanish or occasionally, if I don't know the words in Spanish, I will just like combine English and Spanish in one. Everyone knows, everyone understands. RTB: So pretty much people speak English. P: Yeah, yeah, generally people with like Gibraltarians families, they will talk to each other in Llanito. Cool. RTB: I'm so happy you came on the show. Teach me and our listeners more about this, because it's really interesting and this is just the kind of local language that I like to give some press. So hey everybody, now you know about Llanito, which is it spelled with two L's. Yeah, yeah. So L-L-A-N-I-T-O. Okay. Amazing. So this beautiful multicultural mishmash language from the territory of Gibraltar if we're going to visit to Brussels her what would you suggest for our day. What should we see. And what is the history of some of those places that we would. ## A Brief History of Gibraltar — 24:15 P: Visit a little bit on the history, just a little in a nutshell about Gibraltar. So Gibraltar was essentially like discovered, I suppose you could say, by the Moors in 711, which I always remember because it's like the like the store that was when the Moors came to Gibraltar. Pretty much made the first, basically made the first places to live here, made the first, not only colony, but settlement of settlement. ## When the Moors Arrived — 24:31 P: That's about it from the eighth century, basically flip flop between being Moorish and being Spanish. Like a lot of this region, if you know your Spanish history, then you'll know it was quite Moorish for quite a while. And then basically the Reconquista of the Spanish, the Catholic Monarchs of Spain, basically taking back Spain and eventually pushing out the Moors. So it's Gibraltar. It was it was Spanish, it was Moorish, Spanish, Moorish. You get, you get the idea. Gibraltar went back to Spanish in 1501 later on in the 18th century, quite a big moment in Spanish history. You had to of Spanish succession. It was during this that an Anglo-Dutch fleet basically captured Gibraltar. Gibraltar was a really it was an important place on the Mediterranean. ## The Treaty of Utrecht — 25:42 P: It was a very useful strategic location to have. Spain was distracted. Britain took it under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1711\. Nope. 1713 Spain officially ceded Gibraltar to Britain. They also ceded a variety of other places, including places like Menorca. They also ceded Sicily. I believe, and other strange areas, including Spanish Netherlands, which I didn't know was a thing until I researched just more recently. Still today, Spain claims Gibraltar is their own and obviously Britain claims Gibraltar as their own. It's a British overseas territory, so there is an ongoing dispute over the sovereignty. There's a whole variety of issues that come with that recently. I'm going to assume you're not really into your European football, but there was a recent issue where Spain won the euros and that celebrations in Madrid, two of the players started chanting Gibraltar es español, which is a Francoist chant. So quite a problem. Not ideal. They ended up getting sanctioned by UEFA, a big political minefield between the UK and Spain. Another reason why Brexit is very complicated. RTB: So it's not necessarily settled? P: No, not in the slightest like that. The government of Spain officially considers Gibraltar to be theirs. Britain is illegally occupying, in their opinion. RTB: Wow. So when you say Gibraltar was important, why was Britain interested in it in the first place? Was it a geographic location or a resource? P: I believe it was because of its geographic location, like on the Mediterranean. Basically, if you control Gibraltar, you can control the Strait of Gibraltar, which is that passage between the southern tip of Spain and the northern tip of Morocco, that area. So I believe that's why I was I'm not gonna say I'm any kind of expert on the strategic importance, but I believe that's, what it was, essentially. ## Gibraltar's Population — 27:41 RTB: So what's the population of Gibraltar? P: The populations around 30, 30, 2000\. Yeah. RTB: And then you also have people who are coming in to work every day. P: I believe it goes up to around maybe like 35, 37,000 based on people coming to work. But don't quote me on this numbers. RTB: Thank you so much. I feel like I understand so much better what this place is. And sort of the question of like, okay, it's not Spain, but it's not a country. What's the status, who controls it? So thank you so much for explaining that. So the next time I'm in Andalucia, let's say I want to make a day trip into Gibraltar. What should I see and what will I experience if I follow your travel advice? P: There is so much to see and do in Gibraltar. A lot of people just do a day trip. I personally think it's even better if you come and stay, because then you get to see more than just when the cruise ships come in, or when the tour busses come in Gibraltar in the evenings. For me is so nice because then the big groups of left for me. ## The Rock of Gibraltar — 28:45 P: I highly recommend actually staying in Gibraltar if you're able to, but even if you're not, obviously the mast is the Rock of Gibraltar, which is probably the best. I highly recommend actually staying in Gibraltar if you're able to, but even if you're not, obviously the mast is the Rock of Gibraltar, which is probably the best. Best known thing about us is that it's a giant rock. And with, Barbary macaques or most people to call the monkeys, but they are macaques. If we're going to be, we're going to be specific, definitely go up the rock. And there's a variety of ways you can do that. So that's whether you decide you want to go hiking up the rock. Personally, not my thing. And if you're not feeling quite that energetic, you can take the cable car or you can do a taxi tour. So the taxi association here does rock tours, which is a really great way of seeing Gibraltar if you only have a short amount of time. RTB: I love a cable car. I'm already imagining. P: Myself good cable car. I'm I'm big fan. I'm big fan. Of course. This is a really lovely restaurant of that amongst Cal Pay. They do weddings and wedding receptions up there as well. It's a normal restaurant. You can get drinks, you can go enjoy a meal up there or I believe they do cream teas, which I really want to do at some point. ## The Skywalk (Opened by Luke Skywalker!) — 29:48 P: Really nice place to go and have something to eat or drink. And then you've got the skywalk which was opened by, Luke Skywalker. Wait, what? Yeah. So Mark Hamill, who played Luke Skywalker, opened attraction here called the skywalk. So this is at the top of the rock. And it's basically it's a glass bottom. Platform. I think it's around 300, 400m above the above the sea below. The views are amazing. You get incredible views from up there. They called it the skywalk, and they had Mark Hamill officially open it. Luke Skywalker, open the skywalk. RTB: Oh, is it scary? P: Not for me, but I'm fine with heights. RTB: So tell me more about where this connects to. So if you're going out on the skywalk just to just go out over the water with the glass, is it like a tunnel? P: Yeah. No, it's a platform that goes out over, basically the, side of the rock. So the over the east side of the rock, you can see Spain now in front of you. You've got the Rock of Gibraltar to your left. Well, yeah, you're on it. But you really good views of over the rock to your left. And then to the right you can see Morocco. It is a really great place. And yeah, it's a glass bottomed platform if you're not good with heights and it might not be for you, but I think it's absolutely great. It was open in 2018\. I just double. RTB: Checked. It sounds like a beautiful views. But. So tell me more about these. But these monkeys for the macaques. P: Yeah. So they're Barbary macaques. Basically the only wild monkeys of Europe. They have a bit of a bad rap. It's not that they get violent. It's just if you're not careful, they might try and steal your stuff. So if you have a bag that sounds like it's food in or does have food in, you might be in trouble. There are signs everywhere. So it's not. This shouldn't ever come as a surprise to tourists when they go up the rock, there are signs that say like, don't take food. They offered to, but the monkeys, they're going to try and steal your stuff. RTB: So they have a bad rap for stealing your snacks. P: Yeah, basically. RTB: What do they look like? How how big are they? P: So you got the baby ones, which is so cute. I'm not sure what time of year, like, the babies are born, but it's the best time of year. That's so adorable. They're so diddy. Like the size of a kitten. Oh well. RTB: We'll find that and put it in the show notes so you can time it to the baby. P: Baby macaque season. Yeah, I've got pictures. They are so cute. But like the adult ones, they can get a bit territorial, especially when there are babies like the mother might get territorial. Don't get too close. They are wild animals. The usual rules apply. There's a lot of signs that to say don't take food off the rock because a monkey will try and steal. RTB: So besides the rock, what else should people see? Because that's the one that everybody knows about. But what are some of the other places? ## St. Michael's Cave — 32:41 P: So there's lots of other places up the rock, such as Saint Michael's Cave, which is probably one of the most impressive places. Imagine a cave just full of stalactites and stalagmites and then they put a light show in it. It's incredible. They started this a few years ago. I got to go see it with when I had a friend visiting and I took them there, and I didn't actually realize that I did this light show and it's called, I believe, The Ascending. \[actually The Awakening\] It is so impressive. It's a light and sound installation. So they have these lights going, different colors showing a story like the story of Gibraltar. It's, it's hard to explain. So basically all I'm going to say is you should come here and see it. And they also host music events in some Michaels caves. So next April. So April 2025, Russell Howard is doing a comedy show in the cave, which is so cool. Like, where else do you go where they hold comedy shows? You know, a giant cave? RTB: That sounds like an amazing venue. ## The Great Siege Tunnels — 33:48 P: The acoustics great, yeah. Then we also have the Great Siege tunnels. So these were tunnels that were dug out of the rock, sort of cannons, basically to defend Gibraltar against the Spanish, who tried to take it back on a regular basis. It's crazy to see like how they excavated these tunnels without modern technology that we would kind of expect to be used. It's highly impressive. They just did this, basically, but I think they're just dynamite pickaxes. Wow, that's just wild as a concept to me. I am no civil engineer, but it is, impressive. There are tunnels just throughout the rock. There's so many natural caves and then like, manmade tunnels. So I like to describe the rock as Swiss cheese. ## Windsor Suspension Bridge — 34:30 P: There's also Windsor Suspension Bridge, which is probably my favorite place up the rock. Again, don't go if you're not good with heights. It is suspended over a very large gorge, very large drop. But in my opinion, it's absolutely spectacular. I can actually see it from the top of the road where I live. The views are incredible. ## How Big Is the Rock, Really? — 34:55 RTB: Can you help me just visualize how much of Gibraltar of this 6.8km square is this big rock. P: Gibraltar is divided into different areas. So you've got Europa Point, which I'll talk more about in a bit. And then you've got South District, which is the kind of towards Europa Point on the southwestern side of Gibraltar. So we're Peninsula. So imagine also spent like a bit of a long triangle pointing downwards, pointing towards Morocco. That south westerly area is South district. The very southern area is Europa Point. Then you've got the east side, which is shockingly on the east where we've we've really got these descriptive names. I think you've got West Side, which is on the West, and then Health District. That's pretty much how Gibraltar is divided. And you can imagine all of this is basically like a ring around the rock itself. RTB: Okay. That's really helpful. Okay. So what about besides the rock? I'm sure everybody goes straight there, goes up, sees the sees the monkeys, has the monkeys steal their snack, takes a picture. What else can you tell us as a resident and travel writer, that people should see. P: It back to Europa Point, which is the southernmost point of Gibraltar, and it has amazing views of Morocco, if you're lucky with the weather, if you're unlucky with the weather, you see nothing. When my parents came to visit me for the first time, I just had to gesticulate and go. Morocco is usually over there. Just believe me, Morocco. ## The Pillars of Hercules — 36:42 P: Morocco's over there because you couldn't see it at all. But generally speaking, if it's a relatively nice sunny day, which we do get a lot of here you can see Morocco so clearly. Gibraltar is known as one of the pillars of Hercules. So if you know your mythology, it will enlighten us. Okay. Labors of Hercules is one of the one of the myths. Basically, Hercules was given these tasks, these labors, to complete, and one of them was to cross the Atlas Mountains. Hercules had incredible strength. So instead of climbing over the mountains, I forget why he actually had to climb over the mountains. I believe it was something to do about moving sheep or goats somewhere. Either way, he was having to get from one side of the mountains to the other side of the mountain. So instead of climbing over the mountains, he pushed them apart. Which, yeah, that is obviously the easier way rather than hiking. Clearly that is the way if you're Hercules. And so you push them apart. And so one side became the Rock of Gibraltar on the other side, if you are Morocco, it is Jabal Musa, the Mount Musa. If you are Spanish, it is a mountain that's in Ceuta, which is a Spanish territory in the north of Morocco. Now, if you're hearing this, a slight sound in Gibraltar that's similar to Jebel Musa. That's because it's because when the Moors founded Gibraltar, the Moorish commander who was first to arrive here was named Tariq. So it was named Jabal Tariq, or Tariq's mountain. It got moved into Spanish, the Spanish took the Moorish and then kind of Spanish-ified it. So, Jabal Tariq, it became Jabal Tar, which then eventually became Gibraltar. RTB: Oh, I love, I love an origin story of a name like that. So, Hercules pushing the mountains apart. That's an origin myth for the Strait of Gibraltar. P: It is. Water flowed in to connect the Mediterranean and the Atlantic, and that created the Strait of Gibraltar, according to the myth. That is why the monkeys are on this side as well. RTB: Because then they were just all over there and they. P: Were just chillin, and then someone's split them apart. RTB: So what else should we see in Gibraltar besides the Rock and Europa Point? ## A Walk Down Main Street — 39:08 P: Aside from that, you've got the entirety of the town area. So Main Street is like the main road that stretches all the way from Casemate Square, which is one of our major squares. It's where you'll find, for example, National Day celebrations, Christmas celebrations, all the way down to Trafalgar Cemetery, which is confusingly not a cemetery for everyone from the Battle of Trafalgar. Imagine this one road that stretches pretty much like the entirety of the main residential area. So one interesting thing about Gibraltar is this is a lot larger now than it was a few hundred years ago, and that's because of reclaimed land. Previously, anything outside of the city walls was water. We didn't used to be 6.8km. What? We used to be a lot smaller. So whenever you're in an area that is outside of the city walls, you have to remember that that was once water. RTB: So they built it like Venice. Yeah. Wow. Using what. P: That is a good question okay. RTB: That's okay, that's okay. We don't have to answer every Greek. So that's okay. So you're in Gibraltar. You're. What are you seeing? What are you eating? What are you drinking? What's the vibe? ## What to Eat in Gibraltar — 40:20 P: So I think walking down Main Street from casements to the Southport gates and Trafalgar Cemetery is something that everyone should do on that in Gibraltar. So Casemate Square is really beautiful square. I believe it originated in terms of the name. Anyway, and the architecture. I believe it was a barracks walking from there. You can then walk all the way down Main Street and you'll pass by Piazza, which we mentioned earlier, which is real name John Mackintosh Square. In John Mackintosh Square you have the City Hall, which is this really beautiful pink facade. Then you also have our Parliament building. Unfortunately, right now the Parliament building is, under renovation, so not quite as pretty right now. Sorry. The pink facade is the Parliament building. City Hall is actually currently where the, holding the show, what you call them in the US for, like, registry office weddings. They recently moved them from being at the registry office, which isn't that pretty, to City Hall, which is lovely. Nice. At some point that is where I will be marrying my fiancee. RTB: Oh, congratulations. What's the cuisine like? And, the eating and drinking dining life. Like, what are you going to be ordering? Is it kind of like British food? Is it kind of like Spanish food is. It's it's own thing. P: Los dos. It's essentially a combination of the two. So you can go somewhere and get tapas and next door you can get fish and chips. RTB: Ooh fun. P: I love that. Like literally in case mates, there's a place next to a fish and chip shop. I'm not even like exaggerating are right next door. So we have British style pubs like the Clipper, one of my favorite places for dinner. It's really good value that it really good food, essentially just really great pub food. You've got pies, you've got burgers, you've got all day breakfast. We have a really nice steak house. If you wanted something a little more upmarket, let's look. Gauchos, that is amazing. We've got some really great Indian places. Gibraltar has had a lot of people come from different areas. Aside from the UK, people tend to think of Gibraltar as, oh, it's just basically British expats. That is not not true at all. You have people who came from Spain to Gibraltar, and then you also have people who came, as I mentioned earlier, from Genoa, you have this Genoese population. They were formerly fishermen. There's actually a specific area in Gibraltar which is somewhere else you should definitely visit. That's called Catalan Bay or Caleta, La Caleta. Sometimes it's like little Genoa. If you know that region of Italy, you will see why it is these beautiful, colorful houses. They kind of think that it is gorgeous, so pretty that also bring me onto something food related in a bit as well. Aside from that, we also have people from Morocco. Then we also have people who came over from the Sindh province of I believe it is now Pakistan. I believe at the time it was India, and then after partition it became Pakistan. I found this really interesting because there are quite a few people who live here who are Indian heritage. We have a Hindu temple. When I first came here, I was like, why do we have a Hindu temple? Like, is there a big population of people like from India? Yeah, it's people who came from the Sindh province of what is now Pakistan, but who are Hindu and they came to Gibraltar. I'm not entirely sure of the logistics, but they did. You also find really delicious Indian food here? RTB: Oh, I really want to visit now. P: It is an absolute just mishmash of different cultures, different languages. I can walk down the street at any time and I will hear English, Spanish, Llanito, Arabic, in particular Moroccan Darija. And then that's not even like including all the lines you hear from tourists visiting. As a language lover, I love it. ## Penelope's Gibraltar Travel Writing — 44:15 RTB: Oh, Gibraltar sounds amazing. This. It seems like there's so much to see. So I'm going to point people to you. Have a blog post or two at the Flyaway Girl, which is your your beautiful blog with these beautiful pictures that you take. You take these incredible photographs. Had that always been an interest of yours, or was it something that you developed because you had decided to become a travel writer? P: No, it was definitely the other way around. I got into travel blocking from photography. As a kid. I was always wanted to steal my dad's camera. My dad had dSLR. I was always wanting to use it and take photos. So eventually when I was 15 for my birthday, my parents like 5050 with me. I paid half of it. They paid for half of it. So I even have my own dSLR. So I would stop saving my dad's camera. My dad wanted to use the camera. I love photography so much. So one thing that I think is probably the reason why I got so into photography is I have something called aphantasia. I don't know if you've ever heard of that, but essentially I can't visualize in with like in my head. ## What is Aphantasia? — 45:02 P: So it's why sometimes I struggle a little with describing things or places, because I can't visualize like an image of that in my head. When people say like in their minds, I don't have one. I think that is possibly one reason that I got so into photography is because I couldn't see those pictures in my own head. RTB: Or to describe to someone else. So you could just say here. P: Yeah, it's. RTB: A picture. This is what it literally looks like. Why don't you tell us a little bit about the post that you've written on your website about Gibraltar specifically, and also tell us more about what people can get from your site and from your social media in terms of learning about the world and planning their own trips. I have two. P: Gibraltar blog posts so far. I plan on writing more. Currently I have one all about ten amazing things to do in Gibraltar, and that includes a variety of things I've already mentioned, as well as some that I did not have time yet to mention on here. So definitely go read that. If you're just in learning more about what you can do here. For the people who want to do a day trip, I have a one day itinerary for Gibraltar, which is completely from a locals point of view. All the best places that locals know. How to basically see Gibraltar the best way. Not fall for any tourist traps too much. Basically just how to get around. We have a few quirks as well. RTB: For those who are curious about what those quirks are, I'm going to put the links to those two posts in the show description so you can go there to interact with Penelope's site, but tell us the name of your website. Tell us the name of your socials, how people can follow you and support your work. P: So my blog is theflyawaygirl.com. I have lots of blog posts out all about hidden gems around the world, as well as itineraries for different destinations such as Genoa, places around Morocco and I'm currently working on my content from Japan. Lots to read there. You can find me on TikTok and YouTube as the flyaway girl and then on Instagram, which is my main platform. You can find me at the underscore, flyaway underscore, go on Instagram. You'll find loads of reels and photos from predominantly hidden gems and lesser known destinations around the world. My experiences and so much more. RTB: You have some pieces on your blog that feature different contributing travel writers, and I did contribute a little piece you did in your Hidden Gems of Spain post, which I'll link talking about my time in Galicia. P: And I'm just starting with my series on Instagram, sharing all the places that I have visited and that I love there. So that will be live when people hear this. So definitely go check that out. ## Where Penelope's Going Next — 47:54 RTB: I'm at this point today, where are you going next on Saturday? P: I'm flying up to Barcelona. On Sunday, my fiancé and I live on an 11 day cruise. Just so exciting. This is in collaboration with Virgin Voyages. We're visiting some places that I've been to before that I'm really looking forward to getting to know the lesser known side of this. It's shoulder season and we'll be visiting Santorini and Mykonos, which is not new to me, but they are new to my fiancé in Santorini, we're going to be working with a local company to show the less touristy side of Santorini, the areas the tourists don't necessarily visit beyond Ia and Fira, which are the main tourist spots that people tend to visit. My main reason that I'm so excited about this cruise is we are going to Corsica, Sardinia and Sicily, which are three places I've been on my bucket list for so long and I'm so excited to explore them. They're going to be linguistically so interesting. The language nerd in me is just freaking out about this, because Corsican, Sardinian, and Sicilian are amazing. Amazing. And we're going to Malta so I get to hear Maltese. RTB: Oh my God, I think you can see me freaking out here. P: I know I got an itinerary. RTB: Oh, I can't wait. I'm so excited for you. I can't wait to visit those places myself. P: We'll plan a linguist trip. I'll go first. RTB: Rate. Yeah, yeah, that's basically what I do. Are there any local drinks? They don't have to be alcoholic. That you want to mention. As we come to a close. P: I asked around for this one because I couldn't think of anything. So we do have two distilleries here. There's one that makes a local gin. So Campion gin. Campion is a flower that grows native here. And then we have another distillery where they make a whiskey, a rum and a gin. It's like a Trafalgar rum, Blackwater Cove Whiskey, which my dad is a absolutely lover of single malt whiskey. And he rates it very highly. Take that as a strong recommendation if you're into whiskey. So Black Stap! It's Black Strap! Cove Whiskey, which is place in Gibraltar. There is also a gin which I can't recall the name of, but it's by the same distillery. On the kind of very classic Gibraltar drink side. We have something called Sun Cola, nonalcoholic. This is like a little soft drink. ## Gibraltar's Drink: Sun Cola — 50:08 P: The actual like brand is called Sun Top and they make like an orange drink. And then there's like a tropical, there's like red berries and then there's like the cola one. But the weird thing about this, it's not from Gibraltar, it's not Spanish, it's not British. Would you like to take a wild guess of what country this originates from? RTB: The Philippines. P: Denmark? RTB: Denmark? P: Dubai? I don't know. No one seems to know why this is really popular here. But it is like you can go to, like, one of the beach bars and you can get frozen santo where they have frozen them. They'll cut off the top and then you can eat it with a spoon. Like imagine just going and being like I've like like frozen, like, I don't know, Capri Sun. RTB: Wait, is it in a, like a or a bag carton. Oh, they come in a carton, but is it carbonated? P: No. It's soft. Oh. It's like, not fizzy. RTB: Is it a cola? P: Yeah. It's like cola flavor, but it's not carbonated. RTB: Served in a carton. Like a juice box. P: Yeah, it's a juice box. It is literally a juice box. RTB: So Sun Cola is a flat cola flavored juice box that you can get from Denmark. Yeah. From Denmark. So random. What a beautiful. P: World to understand, but I love it. RTB: Can help you. This has been so wonderful and so thorough. I thank you so much for coming to the show and telling us all about this really interesting place. I can't wait to visit. Here's some more Llanito to learn a little bit more on my own, but until then, I'll enjoy just continuing to see your beautiful photographs and your beautiful blog posts. Thank you for doing this really fun work. P: Thank you for inviting me. ## Why You Should Visit Gibraltar — 51:51 RTB: It was so fun speaking with you. Thank you so much. Is there anything else you want people to know about Gibraltar? P: Just come visit. Come check us out. Experience also for yourself. Come stay for a night. Two nights. Just come enjoy our little slice of Britain in the sun. RTB: That sounds marvelous. I can't wait to come myself. Thank you, Penelope, to all of our listeners. Thank you. Wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Support us on Patreon. *\[NOTE: We are no longer using Patreon! Become a member* [*right here*](https://www.mododibere.com/#/portal/) *to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\]* Grab the newsletter at mododibere.com and subscribe to the YouTube channel at Modo di Bere to watch the travel show. Modo di Bere TV. Music for the show was composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou. Purchase their music at the link in the notes. Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ "The Woman Can" ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e10-velenosi-wines/) [ The Sober Sommelier ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e8-abe-zarate-sober-sommelier/) ### This Sommelier’s Shift Drink Might Surprise You URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/this-sommeliers-shift-drink-might-surprise-you/ Last updated: 2026-08-16T05:46:41.000Z It’s happened more times than I can count. Two or more hours after the “civilians” who don’t work in the industry clock out, I’ve finally settled onto a comfy bar stool at my local. Just before I take my first sip of the day’s first beverage that isn’t for business, one of my customers recognizes me. We lock eyes. They smile over their own glass of wine. I smile back. “Fancy seeing you here,” they say. “What are *you* drinking?” “Champagne of beers,” I say, holding up the iconic curves of a bottle of Miller High Life, decked in its signature white and green necklace bedazzled with the brand’s mascot, a lady— she looks like a cross between a witch and a cancan dancer—sitting on a sliver of the moon. This usually results in a shared laugh, its volume determined by how long they’ve been at the bar. “Huh,” they say, quieter. “Well, I guess you’re off the clock. I figured you’d be drinking something different.” Left unsaid is the fact that “different” likely means expensive, or at least fascinating, something from a bucolic vineyard on the other side of the world. We share a toast. “Nope,” I say, then take a swig, and sigh. They go back to their evening, watching sports or chatting up other friends from the neighborhood. My whole body relaxes as the beer flows down my gullet. The flavor is basic, but pleasing. Comforting. Perfect. It’s delicious, for no reason at all. If I’m lucky, I catch a nod from the bartender, who’s also brought me a shot of whiskey. Founded in 1903, Miller High Life has a storied tradition as an after-hours go-to for sommeliers, bartenders, and chefs. (In fact, just last year, Miller High Life became the official beer sponsor of “Top Chef,” the critically acclaimed reality show). There’s something magically refreshing about this beer’s gentle sweetness, soft bubbles and ice-cold, straightforward flavor after a long day—or night—working to make sure everyone else has a good time. A plainspoken brew, Miller High Life fits neatly into the American mythos: The United States is a nation of proudly humble, hardworking folk who give their all in building community. When *that* work is done—we rest and drink beer, just like the good Lord intended. And nothing’s more American than turning a myth into commerce. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Miller-2.jpg) **Champagne of beers in a can* The moniker “Champagne of Beers” developed as a marketing ploy. In the early 20th century, bottled beer was still a fairly new idea, especially in the U.S. Most beer was consumed at saloons or purchased, by those on the go, in metal or wooden pails. According to trademark forms from Molson Coors, the parent company behind Miller High Life, the beer first hit the market just ahead of New Year’s Eve. The pitch was an alternative to Champagne, for folks who didn’t like or couldn’t afford the stuff (which was, at that point, often cloyingly sweet and produced almost everywhere *but* France’s Champagne region). Golden-hued, bottled in a clear, long-necked bottle designed to evoke the upmarket look of bubbly, Miller High Life’s gambit worked. Americans took to the new lager, and within 3-4 years, the product had a new slogan: “Champagne of Bottled Beers.” Over time, the word “bottled’ was dropped, and the rest is hoppy history. So, how did Miller High Life become a bit of a “bartender’s handshake?” Like many aspects of beverage history, the real story is likely lost in the great beer steins of time. However, I have my suspicions about what happened. Throughout the 20th century, fine dining, haute, and nouvelle cuisine became democratized. Expertly executed dishes moved out of the kitchens of the nobility into restaurants. The working-class folks *making* those dishes, and serving the bespoke wines and cocktails alongside them, went from feeding one party a few times a day to feeding hundreds in a single night. After the last customers went home, these workers were reaching for something, anything, that was uncomplicated and *for them*. Think about it. After hours of precise chopping, stirring, tweezing microgreens and twisting curls of citrus zest, no one, not the chefs, not the bartenders, wants to make anything. A tasty beer with a crown cap? Yes, please, and keep ‘em coming. --- Michele Thomas is the editor of Modo di Bere Magazine. She holds an MFA in Creative Writing from St. Joseph’s University and earned a Certified Sommelier credential from the Court of Master Sommeliers. Michele works full time as the General Manager and buyer for Greene Grape Wine & Spirits, in Brooklyn, NY and her writing has appeared in [**The New Yorker**](https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-christmas-wreath?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=newsletter&utm%5Fcampaign=this-sommelier-s-shift-drink-might-surprise-you&%5Fbhlid=d456f261a5d0c7a516e3671e2d88a77774fef4b5), Edible Brooklyn, and Activist Philanthropist. She has taught English and Creative Writing at the Girls Write Now, Legal Outreach, Fordham University, and St. Joseph’s University, written science books for middle grade children and is the co-author of Culinary Careers for Dummies, with Annette Tomei and Tracey Biscontini (Wiley). Formerly the executive editor for curriculum at the International Culinary Center (founded as the French Culinary Institute), Michele is currently working on a memoir of her adventures in food, wine, and family. [Read Michele’s day-in-the-life essay about working wine retail](https://www.mododibere.com/content/files/2026/08/meet-michele-thomas.html) [Listen to Michele’s interview on the Modo di Bere podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hdqCpC9y-A&t=2171s&ref=mododibere.com) [Follow Michele on Instagram @bedstuysomm](https://instagram.com/bedstuysomm?ref=mododibere.com) ### ▷S3E8 “You Have to Like Yourself,” says Abe Zarate, Sober Sommelier URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e8-abe-zarate-sober-sommelier/ Last updated: 2026-08-26T02:26:44.000Z When Abe Zarate chose sobriety during the pandemic, he returned to his restaurant career with a new reality. Abe shares the logistics of working around alcohol without consuming it. This episode is a frank discussion about what it's like for wine professionals who decide to consume less alcohol. Is Dry January a threat to the industry? Does neo-prohibition truly loom? The two sommeliers discuss recent news around alcohol and health and how the industry has responded so far. (RT is not impressed.) Rose Thomas opens up about the moment she considered walking away from wine and her wine career how a trip to Italy with temporary dietary restrictions helped her find a new path. (In case you meet in person, RT does drink and she does eat bread!) Abe teaches RT a hilarious drinking term from his youth in Guadalajara, Mexico, and Laredo, Texas. He describes his volunteer work with his sister's non-profit, Corporate Pero Latinos, and how he helps hospitality workers gain access to career choice through language education. Abe shares his thoughts on the "rock bottom" trope and the economics of restaurants providing accommodations for teetotalers. Abe's recent experience working in a restaurant that prioritized the disability community expanded his vision of inclusive hospitality. > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/p/DEva7LPSwcz/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/p/DEva7LPSwcz/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) Whatever your job sector or your stance on alcohol, you can follow Abe Zarate aka The Sober Somm for down-to-earth advice on finding clarity in your career and confidence in your own skin. Find Abe on Instagram [@sober\_somm](https://www.instagram.com/sober%5Fsomm/?hl=en&ref=mododibere.com) Check out his work with Corporate Pero Latinos and Wine on Wheels: [www.corporateperolatinos.org/](https://www.corporateperolatinos.org/?ref=mododibere.com) [wineonwheels.org/](https://wineonwheels.org/?ref=mododibere.com) **Expand for Autotranscript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors) View Transcript But ultimately what I always wanted which I can speak for the entire human race is connection we all just want connection and I just had equated drinking to getting a little bit of what I thought was genuine connection because in my mind I thought well when people drink they're uh uninhibited and they let go more and they're more open so whatever you're showing me as your true self and whatever I'm showing you as my true self and this is there is a certain that occurs if you remember \[Music\] it welcome to moto ber the podcast about local drinks and local sayings I'm your host Rose Thomas banister \[Music\] I'm so happy to introduce today's guest Abe zerat known on the internet as the sober s Abe has worked as a s with top wine programs in New York City at the Modern and contentto he was recognized as one of 40 Top Taste makers in 2024 by Wine Enthusiast magazine a promotes inclusivity and Hospitality by working with the nonprofit wine on Wheels by co-leading in English as a second language program for restaurant workers and by speaking openly about his experiences as a beverage professional who does not consume alcohol AB welcome hi Rose before we start the interview I want to remind you that Moto dber is a listener supported program please take a moment to visit patreon.com o o di V to learn more about the exclusive educational content that you'll unlock when you become a paid supporter of the show a and I will be here when you get back the last time we were together we were at Sam Bale's sober Supper Club and we both got interviewed for CBS News yes yeah yeah yeah big thanks to Sam Bale your fellow podcast guest from season 2 episode 11 Sam puts on non-alcoholic events around New York City through Third Place bar Sam really puts the celebration into sobriety so that new segment is airing on CBS on January 11th from 7: to 9:00 a.m. eastern standard time and pretty recently decided not to drink alcohol felt like a life sentence of getting offered coffee Coca-Cola or orange juice AB you said something on CBS news about you said something to CBS news about making everyone feel included when they're raising a glass in a toast can you tell me more about that yeah I think um it's a it's a very personal choice and I probably said that uh this country and World in general has such a problem with choice this is such a microcosm of it all but just as important because it's a reflection of how we all operate you know I have very specific uh faces and reactions whenever I've brought over over a non-alcoholic option whenever I know someone's celebrating or you know I'm splashing with bubbles which I love to do you know always bleed with generosity and they just turned to me and it's so so easy really to make someone feel not just special but just included in an experience that at that point it's kind of like why not why wouldn't you have something you know mhh how does it work for you being a sober som the logistics of it is it's the exact same as when I did ingest alcohol which is you taste sometimes you taste at 8: a.m. so you can imagine even if you do consume alcohol you're not swallowing every sip so I would spit in those occasion but the only difference is now I spit every time you know I make sure that I have my own before even taking a sip to taste that there's either a sink or I have a little cup of recip um I was going to say recipient cuz that's how you said it in Spanish recept recepticle or if you're visiting a Vineyard just you know the world is your the land is your your spit cup everything else has been a process of reframing and rewiring kind of pointed towards this concept of neuroplasticity and not to get too scientific because I don't even you know I wouldn't even know how to really relay that information it's a a process in which you are able to rewire your brain to change your behaviors and habits and just think about things differently you only know what you know so it's kind of re positioning your lenses so you create a new reality and in this new reality I no longer have a an alcohol disorder mhm mhm but you still got to keep your job yes yeah yeah yeah yeah so you didn't have to change that you you have discovered did you think you were going to have to quit in the wine business when you wanted to quit drinking I was ready for it it sounds silly but I was watching an Ellen Pompeo interview at some point where she talked about uh asking for 20 million a season or something like that Grace's Anatomy I don't know if you know the actress but she said that when she went into the meeting she was ready to walk away and I made sure that I was ready to walk away from an industry that has given me continues to give me so much not least of which is a community and so alcohol was just such a tiny part of it really that I didn't want to leave it but again I was very much ready to walk away and I think that's why not the only reason but that's a large part of why it's um become sustainable you know want to tell you something which is I was about to walk away too in uh late 2023 I was feeling a lot of General burnout and before pivoting to writing and education from hospitality and sales which is really I think a better fit for me all along not that I didn't have a great time you know doing those other jobs that I did for a long time but you know part of it was just the the taxing nature of this culture of where there was just a lot of drinking and it was just kind of wearing me down you know one of the first things I did during the lockdown was I just stopped drinking completely because I didn't have to for work and it's so weird because you know when you're in these kind of sexy food jobs food and wine jobs it's like oh poor you you get to drink free alcohol all day and I'm like yes know it's it's I get I'm expected to drink alcohol all day I don't know it took me a long time to get to a point where you know I'm not drinking every day and like moderating isn't that hard I'd always found actually that um not drinking at all was a lot easier than mod in which I think a lot of people have had that experience it's weird for some of this for me it kind of is especially now it's been almost 4 and a half years but I also live with my sister who has no issue moderating I have a ton of friends who have no issue moderating so I see it everywhere and that's why I think of the and I'm not the first one to bring up this analogy but as an allergy it's just you take a gluten allergy there's an intolerance and then there's celc disease so yeah I'm somewhere in the middle closer to celc where I just said it would be a slow not that slow but a slow burn into something that's not beneficial to my wellbe yeah you just have to make those decisions it's uh if you have an allergy to shellfish you're not going to expose yourself at the time I'm describing I was also having some digestive issues and I was wondering if it was gluten I think I might have been alcohol actually yeah both at the same time so it was kind of hard to tell although I don't drink that much anymore or I don't drink every day what is your Instagram handle it's it's sober unor Su okay sober Su because sober Somali was taken I was you know what I think it was taken by me really yeah and depending on the time frame because I actually made a second account really and I thought about doing what something like what you're doing at least publicly I it's like could I pivot and that was the thing that I did I didn't put anything on it oh wow I knew that I wasn't sure about I I was going to take an extended time off I was thinking a year this was in 2024 so I had I had been drinking for about three months and then I got invited to judge one competition in Italy I was also thinking about just changing careers completely but I wasn't happy about that I had asked myself well why don't you just get a different job like the ones you've had and I had to admit that I didn't want to that I was like well what would you have done with your somier certification all along if there were no limits and I was like I would be a writer and I was like oh that sounds too hard we tried that that's why you went and got a jayob in restaurants in the first place blah blah blah was feeling very close-minded and also not drinking and not eating gluten so then I get invited to Italy but I was just like this is me right now and I'm going to go to Italy judge the wine competition and eat without drinking or eating wheat and I did it and you know what it was not a big deal really I'm more impressed by no no gluten in Italy I mean this is a whole other story but it's actually really easy to be gluten-free in Italy they want to make sure everybody can eat they have a lot of celiacs there but also Italian cuisine is so much more than pasta and the cuisine is such simple straightforward ingredients that there's not a lot there aren't hidden ingredients so there's always something for you to eat and and actually people are amazing and that's what I learned so I guess what I want to talk to you is you know kind of your transitionary process with openly communicating it this people's reactions what I discovered is a it was fine B when I finally spoke up about my needs I discovered things like the chef at my favorite pizza restaurant in Brooklyn which I guess is my yeah barano they have great pizza um it's in Williamsburg the chef is has analogy and he had a secret glutenfree menu that is awesome now it's public but it had been he just had it and he could have been making me food that didn't make me feel bloated or whatever for years if I had just said something and when you bring up these things then people the the positive side is that people are like oh yeah me too or I have this or I'm allergic to green bell peppers it kind of opens up the door and his job is not disimilar to what I just said earlier it's it's the exact same thing if anything I I mean I don't know his health or what actual issues he would develop but it's the same thing that doesn't mean he's not able to cook those pizzas or able to provide the actual more than the than the meal which is Hospitality that's where what we're in the business of and I've said it a lot before Hospitality doesn't just belong in restaurants I some of the best places outside of restaurants that I've loved working at are the places where I clock Hospitality right away and that's such an important thing to kind of shift the focus too as well it's just that shifting your focus to what matters what you want to stay in this case in the industry for yeah I mean so just to like wrap that up and we've talked about the story of how I came up with an idea for this project before but I was around a bunch of people who were also wine judges who had some kind of entrepreneurial or creative project I opened my mind a little bit more but I also showed myself that I could taste 80 wines a day without taking a single Sip and it was fine it wasn't just fine it was great I had more stamina I was more present I was a better taster I've been a big advocating for spitting all along like it's just kind of a rookie move to not spit it's like oh you've been here for 20 minutes and now you have to go home you know I'm going to stay here and continue to learn I I didn't end up staying in wine I didn't continue to drink but it's was more like I drink for work one of the ways that I'm able to do that is because of all these wonderful non-alcoholic products that do exist now I do a lot of swapping out whereas before it was like okay there would be this epivo hour and this Amaro and all this wine in between I'm going to have a non-alcoholic beer and you know swap out some other things I'm going to save myself save what drinking I do want to do for this wine that I really want to try but I'm not just going to be like oh you know Dive Bar Savion blunk okay so I think it's actually really improved the quality of my drinking exp exctly it's drinking better whatever that means to any person it's not doesn't mean more expensive doesn't mean less expensive doesn't mean consuming more or less it's just whatever better means to you whatever will enhance it experience that's that's it and then you keep saying um words that I I go back to a lot like swap like habit swap habits don't die understanding that understanding that you need to swap it out if I like to have a drink in my hand then okay well when I'm travel I'm commuting I'm holding a coffee when I'm uh getting home after a busy service I like to sink into my couch with another drink in my hand so even tonic water bitters the simplest of things something a fancy wine glass just something that kind of makes it feel like an experience versus what I'm actually ingesting that's more impactful than any liquid in the receptacle what is your shift drink these days sh shift drink being your after work couch drink at home yeah cuz I I rarely spend extra time at work now tonic water honestly cuz it's the simplest and I still consume Bitters and non-alcoholic BS all the bids are great products that I really really love and they have you know a similarish uh background being Somalia as well which company is that all the bitter all the bitter all the bitter so on the flip side I talked about having positive experiences talking about changing my what I was ingesting at different times I mean then when you start drinking again you worry about disappointing people you know for me right and so it's was like oh sorry I'm just want to say thank you to for just talking about this because you could have easily become the sober song without Bec becoming the sober s before I made those changes that I just described I found it personally to be a bit lonely as a beverage professional who decided at a certain point that I wanted to drink less you would think the industry people would talk all the time about how to find balance when we're dealing with the substance in our work but in my experience nobody talks about it and I I experienced in the past drinking in the beverage industry as a sort of machismo where you silently try to keep up with everybody's else's drinking and if it gets too much for you you just kind of disappear and then there must have been something wrong with you yes yeah you couldn't hang in Breaking that silence I find that like for you to have to explain that you're a somia who doesn't drink do you find that people can react really emotionally or become defensive or apologetic or what range of emotional reactions do you get from explaining who you are and how have you responded to that over time it's the entire range of of responses anywhere from from let's say a job interview where I don't really know the person very well and I bring it up in my own way they for some reason feel for the most part the need to tell me about their drinking habits kind of saying well I don't drink that much either way and I'm like that's cool that's great I I'm just saying this is you know how I work it out and the line that I like to toe maybe sprinkle in for for me explaining sobriety does not equal abstinence always sobriety doesn't have to be dry etc etc kind of going more into those things I mean that's kind of new information to me what do you mean by that yeah let's let's let's stop there so sobriety has less to do with the avoidance of alcohol than it does actually looking into the wise and what you're actually trying to get from being in a different state of mind in this case or in my case I should say a numbing State of Mind and that was either to I I found out I was doing to tolerate people more it wasn't necessarily to make myself more fun or more of a life of a party is because I didn't want to be around certain people and I was kind of forcing myself to or environments to that's one but ultimately what I always wanted which I can speak for the entire human race is connection we all just one connection and I just had equated drinking to getting a little bit of what I thought was genuine connection because in my mind I thought well when people drink they're uh uninhibited and they let go more and they're more open so whatever you're showing me is your true self and whatever I'm showing you is my true self and this is there is a that URS yeah if you remember it and I I just wasn't it just wasn't leading to any deeper connection that's what I I realize and and now I just really focus on connecting in different ways with people like like like this I like to listen to other people's ways of of life it has little to do with how much anyone might drink or not or what they do I just want to know what they're about and I'm genuinely interested in in humans and human behavior because I'd argue you are able to find something in common and a connection with any human out there if you just listen to a little bit of what they have to say that's wonderful yeah it's true it's true if you're watching this episode on our YouTube channel youtube.com/ Moto DeBerry podcast please hit the Subscribe button and I hope you're all subscribed to the newsletter from mberry magazine where I help curate delicious writing on drinks and dialect sign up for free at moto.com Abe do you have a local saying to share with us well local could um be New York or where I up I grew up between Laro Texas and guara Mexico I was uh thinking about something maybe drinking or alcohol related there's this word be which on its own means fart but I love the Spanish language just because depending on inflection alone let alone context you can change the meaning of a word and and honestly I think about it as like taking a grape and growing it everywhere or anywhere in the world and you know it retains its identity but it captures different characteristics of the place Etc so in any case this is uh you know depending on on the you're bringing my two ideas together that's so beautifully the the terar of language all you could say Capo which is what's up you can say Neo which is uh you know too bad um uh ped to be to be drunk you it's something you are there's so many so many estas estas yeah or or you're saying you're stting it estas you need to go home how would you even Translate yeah exactly and I love doing that there's so many phrases like that in Spanish that make no sense if you translate them literally but yeah that's just uh buedo like it it it can be good or bad depending on the context and that's not unlike alcohol and wine in the industry depending on the context and the lens that you have in front of it is uh what it is to you that really is why it's such a personal choice and it's not about telling anyone how to do anything it's just presenting what you're doing because I know that when I was uh entertaining the idea of staying in the industry while becoming sober I was frantically looking for at sober Somalia # uh sober in Hospitality # silver bartender just anyone in the industry that might have been doing it already I found a few but not too many understandably so because not everyone wants to be public about it I found this uh I'm Tim hany uh I think he's a master of why I'm not sure Master somal yeah something like that but I read um an article where he had quit after achieving that certification so it was really tough for me to find someone who was actively you know pursuing something at certification whatever the case may be so I wasn't crazy nobody was no no no just because someone is not outwardly visible does not mean they don't exist and that goes for anything you know and it's true I know that because for I open that account like on my H 100th day so like four years ago over those four years I've had so many people DM me wine makers Somalia I I would have never even thought to think oh I wonder what their habits are you know it's just it's almost surprising how many people are actively pursuing or choosing sobriety while working with it it's it's uh kind of U validating in a way so if I was able to present anything to them hopefully without account which is the whole purpose of it then I'm getting benefit from that feedback loop thank you for changing their conversation well you know one person out of that there's so many people doing it yeah somebody has to break the ice it would have been a lot simpler to just Market mod Barry as a wine account because that's like the biggest area of my expertise but I just I wanted I knew I wanted to cover cocktails also but I wanted to cover Global cultures a lot in Italy a lot of New York but not just there there's whole places in the world where alcohol isn't that big a part of the culture or just people where alcohol is a huge part of the culture but not a part of their life and I just I wanted everybody to feel included so I said drinks yeah it's I I was very much welcomed in that you call it transition which it was from not drinking back into the job market I started uh back uh cuz it was in the middle of Co so I started back as a service manager so I didn't really touch alcohol or wine or anything and then slowly I started tasting again but I was immersed in it you know I didn't want to be scared of a substance forever so I was like bring it on it's not even about testing myself if this is triggering me okay what is it it's not the drink it's not the drink itself what is it that's triggering me and a lot of the times it was uncomfortability not just in a space but with myself that's really where everything just started to make sense you just have to like yourself there's no other option you have to like yourself \[Music\] then thinking about dry January a lot of times when when I worked as a bartender so you're really a therapist whatever angst people would have I would suggest go on vacation by yourself the other aspect of that kind of life-changing trip was I was doing a fun trip by myself but we all have a rut that sometimes a little solo travel can really help you hear your own voice and that's how I feel about dry January and that's what dry January was for me for me was a chance to be like am I happy with the way that I'm doing things what are your feelings about dry January there's a lot of marketing around it a lot of opinions talk to me about dry January what's on your mind about that we live in a capitalist Society so everything is going to turn into consumerism everything's going to get marketed eventually but if you look at the root of it and dig in a little bit people have asked me this before and I I I think there's huge value on something like dry January especially the way it's perceived now as a more communal thing people and the wine business might be scared at how much they're seeing it I don't know call it movement whatever it is the movement grow but it's not even a movement it's just people feel are feeling I think more comfortable and an otherwise isolating thing like you said it can be really lonely then shame might might dig through I think it was brne brown in a tech talk or something shame only works when you're alone something along those lines that's why it's gained such a prominence I think and for that reason for the community which is what the you know wine business is supposed to be all about and supporting each other it has to be holistic you have to support each other in whatever thing you're doing in the moment it's only a moment a pause a trip if you will to rethink and just kind of check in how can you check in if you're not clear-minded and present to make those decisions and if you take that pause and you think oh I actually have no issue at all great if you do then you but not to a certain degree where you have to quit altogether then you're becoming a sustainable part of the wine economy because then you will hopefully be able to drink moderately for life even myself I don't ingest alcohol but I'm actively purchasing wine and not actively purchasing whether it's for blind tasting or parties or whatever it is so it's not about shunning people I think a personally feel that dry January is a lot smaller threat to the world of wine than snobbery outdated marketing exclusivity elitism I mean like I think there's a lot of things we can work on I feel like there were a lot of op-eds around January last year where people were like oh it's the end of civilization mostly I was worried because I felt that there was this thing it's kind of like when someone becomes a vegetarian or something I was listening to an old interview with Anthony Bain talking about vegetarians and he was famously like you know like did not like that I think we've realized now that vegetarians existing are not going to like put an end to demolish the into the beautiful traditional sausages of Italy or something like having this reaction to people who aren't drinking even for a month as like being censorious or raining on everybody's parade or something like that self-righteous is a and I was just like to me it it came off as like I don't know who's doing the hectoring here but if people have dropped out of being an alcohol consumer I don't think you're going to get them back I saw a panel at vitle was like Neo prohibitionism a threat to the industry and like okay outrage it gets a lot of clicks and then more of those articles get written there was one in the New York Times that was really weird I my eyes at all of those Wars and fre but then you did you did a talk with Karen yeah I want to hear your thoughts about doing that interview together and your thoughts on Neo prohibitionism the threat to the civilization of wine I wanted to do it because it was POS to me as a um the come over October is a campaign bringing people together in whatever way kind response to socialization and that part of it which is Karen mcneils and Gino Colangelo I was working at Colangelo at that time oh interesting so Karen mcneel by the way is the author of The Wine Bible one possibly my favorite wine textbook and coangelo is a marketing a PR agenc for food and beverage it was presented to me and I thought it was a great idea to things are are already coexisting so it's just presenting it as such which things are coexisting well everything but in this case sobriety and alcohol consumers it's just we're all whether they're they're vocal about it or not everyone is coexisting yeah I'll still celebrate come over October I'll because I'll be hanging out with friends and as long as the wine is in the main focus it's just being around your people yeah there will be whne around and you'll be together you'll be you going to me that was it that was it right and they kind of changed the tune to more moderation so I was like great I felt like it went through different transitions of uh the neoo anti- Neo prohibitionist uh to more okay come over October drink in moderation sort of thing because you're not going to win with the health take on either side mhm MH there's no winning there right and there are too many variables anyway I saw that coming to the conversation and I think people know what they're in for and they don't need to be preached about the health benefits or lack thereof people know people are smarter than the one industry thinks and I'm not saying that being puritanical does not exist it's really weird to I'm not sure who's doing this exactly but to give like somebody like Sam Ba yeah who's kind of like a yay not let's have more delicious non-alcoholic beverages wouldn't want to give like an influencer in that space flak for threatening the wine industry or something in fact I view having fun with dry January having more high quality non-alcoholic beverages available a wider range of conversations around sabrier whatever that means as a really nice corrective to the way that I mean I'm talking about American culture but I feel like the way that we've dealt with anyone who has any issue with substances whether you want to call it an addiction or not has just been tremendous amounts of Shame yeah just kind of the emot mechanics of degrading people where the scapegoat becomes the addict I think it's really good if if people can have open conversations about yeah and you should that's another perspective that I believe we benefit hugely from changing because you don't have to hit rock bottom either to make a a change if you're talking about sober people especially in dry jary putting at risk any sales or Revenue I have friends who will invite me and they will pick a restaurant or bar based on their non-alcoholic options I don't care I'm fine with Seltzer because I'm there to hang out with my friends and good music the atmosphere if they don't see enough offering for me they would pick a different place and now the restaurant is losing on two three four people that would have potentially brought in however much money of Revenue that night and not just that one time we won't go back there because we already know that there's no non-alcoholic offerings does that make sense where I'm trying to get coming back to vegetarianism and of obiously aun preachy self-righteous vegetarian but at the same time did the conversation let's all eat more vegetables really hurt anything I mean did it hurt an industry I mean now you're seeing entire highlevel tasting menus the whole restaurant's vegetarian and that used to be so weird Indian Chicago was just there Michelin star tasting menu they have separate menus vegetarian piscatarian and I forget what they call the meat option and for their pairing menu they had a a non non-alcoholic pairing menu so they're really thinking of it all in advance making it feel like you're expected yeah they expect to accommodate it doesn't take too much that's a thing I think people see it as this whole like oh well now I have to create this whole thing no also most people and not just sober people just vegetarian people I have friends that I go out with that don't eat seafood they don't make it my problem if they share they're like oh I'll share this and this and then order whatever you want and I'll order whatever I want they're not making it your problem because they know it's a personal choice I just want to say to the industry people chill out on S sober influencers really all that person wants is like when I go out to a bar could there be a non-alcoholic cocktail for me that's not a glass of apple juice like an 8-year-old and they're really asking for something so small and on the health news we kind of talked about it but other people may not be following this as close as as we were I do just want to say with the World Health Organization I think that the alcohol industry has done a really bad job in how we've reacted to that and how we've positioned ourselves and so I just want to say that the way that I interpret that study in a nutshell is there was something called The j-shaped Curve I mean you can look it all up but that thing where it was good for your heart to drink red wine or people said there was a certain you know one to two drinks for men or one drink for women someone did a retrospective study and they realized that in the past past when they had compared people who don't drink at all to people who drink a little bit that was not a good comparison and they found that the light drinkers were healthier it was because the people who didn't drink at all a lot of them already had stopped drinking because they had a health issue so that was it in light of that study the World Health Organization the spin was no amount of alcohol is safe and the reaction was one drop will kill you and people were like oh it's so overblown but what really happened the way that I saw it was this Health Organization no longer felt comfortable choosing an amount to recommend that people drink we've known that drinking too much alcohol can cause cancer since the 80s that is not news and people who are marketing alcohol it's not Health Food you know we know this right and I don't want to gloss over the health problems that you know drinking too much can cause but that was it just the who was like we no longer feel comfortable recommending that people have one to two drinks a day we're getting rid of that wisdom and sorry that antioxidant thing you don't get that anymore you don't get red wine lost its Health Halo I just I feel like there was this kind of straw man overreaction yeah that I think but if you're sitting there and you're worried because there are threats to the wine industry in terms of economics and all kinds of other things worry more about climate change than the j-shaped curb and just chill out about it I that's my advice you're going to be fine yeah everyone knows exactly what they need and what's messing them up in their daily life and if that happens to be again with a chips or wine or or gluten or something you modify it and that's it focus on being the best person you can be so that you can be physically mentally and emotionally available as a resource to help the the bigger \[Music\] causes speaking of community I'm so happy to hear about your work making English as a second language classes available for Hospitality workers with the Group corporate per Latinos tell us more about your work with them so that saying nonprofit that started uh we just turned three and my sister started it before I was even a nonprofit she worked at KPMG one of the big four and she as you can imagine she was always one of the only Brown women in any environment and and in that company so she just posted a Tik Tok asking if there were any other girlies out there looking to just hang out and socialize and just share experiences and you can imagine how that devolved into something not devolved evolved into into something uh bigger and and she had always had this want to pay it forward especially coming from our dad is very much of the mentality of if it was hard for me it has to be harder for everyone behind me because they have to pay their dues and we're of the opposite like everything we do is to prove that wrong cuz if you make it easier one it's it's impossible to make it fully easy so that's not even something we can achieve but make it just a little easier then you start elevating more and more as you elevate yourself it's really an an an uplifting of a community not just a person tell me about these classes I find that that I I want to teach wine in Spanish and I want to do all those things but the very first barrier to entry to even opening up someone's mind to other possibilities or choice is the English language a lot of these people and we focus again uh on Hospitality workers come here not knowing a lick of English and they think well with the the language barrier this is the only job that I'm suited for that I can do so by eliminating that you already open up five other ladders that they can climb if they want to choice choice choice and that's what we do not not a single one of us as volunteers are certified teachers professors Etc but I find it really curious that uh you know I'll I'll listen in on on someone teaching and we use a lot of the same examples or we follow similar paths and I think it's because of that shared experience honestly my favorite way to learn language is to sit with somebody in a cafe with a notebook yeah and you just you just Converse it's incredible because yeah we have a syllabus and we've gotten to the point where we're a lot more structured but a lot of the times I just show up and and and once you build that consistency I think what makes makes us really special it's that one-on-one interaction and consistent personto person so you build that trust and openness I've been teaching for two and a half years and and there's this one specific student I've had that it took over a year for him to even be a little comfortable saying anything in English and once it started it was just so it's the most gratifying thing so if someone wants to take one of these classes how do they find out about it we found too that it in keeping it more focused in this case uh geared towards hospit IT workers it started garnering more attention and especially because I'm part of the hospitality industry Etc but it really is open to anyone who wants to take them so we can be found on our website corpor latino. org you can DM me on my so account at Corp Latinos on Instagram anyone who's looking to join us or know someone that wants to either volunteer or learn English please yeah so speaking of looking ahead to creating the world that we envision what if there were more wine education in Spanish how might that have changed your wine vocabulary cuz you had to learn English in order to take those tests yeah I worked at cork buus Chelsea Market for a while and very tourist heavy so a lot of Spanish there and I found that I was I was having trouble you know finding words for nutty tennin uh body I know how to say body but I didn't know if it was a different word or medium full Etc and so I had to go back and Rel learn all of these things in English I'm sorry in Spanish yeah I saw an opportunity to to at some point lean into it you know I've been speaking of cork buus Amber rail wonderful wonderful human and one of the smartest wine people out there she created this this presentation that um I still need sorry Amber need to look over but uh yeah to start to get that started and just have it available you know it's not looking to make money necessarily it's just like I want to offer people resources and and options for them to take if they want yeah and maybe there could be a moment when you don't have to learn English first before considering a wine career in New York City exactly which is such a diverse place I I look forward to that day I guess this is as good a moment as any to announce that I'm starting a Spanish podcast I've been wanting to for a long time because actually I had someone tell me there should be more wine education in Spanish and I thought I hadn't seen it before and then I couldn't stop seeing it Mot espanol is going to launch in 2025 um and so we're actually going to record an interview in Spanish after this and that will Air once mberry espanol launches the place where we did that news interview was contentto restaurant your most recent s gig I want to talk about how they unfortunately closed and of course ask you about your your next steps because I believe you're on the job market right now but first I just want to talk about how this was such a lovely restaurant that was really committed to inclusivity both for diners and workers with different kinds of dis abilities and I wanted to ask you about how your work as a sober Som generally ties into the work of inclusivity so this place contento was really special Mostly because of the people that are behind it what got the most attention rightfully so is it's welcoming nature towards the disability Community because of the more obvious things like a lowered bar higher tables for wheelchair users to just be able to comfortably enjoy dinner adaptive silverware Braille menu etc etc etc but more than what we had to offer it was about creating a barrier-free space where people could just come in as they are because okay yeah there's a category of wheelchair user but depending on your injury you might have different needs there's a manual wheelchair and there's a power wheelchair different needs for those two things already so it was just like come in tell us tell us how we can accommodate and make this as comfortable as as we can and we'll figure it out in this tiny tiny space and and he's and I think through the very end through closing that was it that was what we what we LED with I like how impactful it's been to me in terms of becoming barrier-free myself hopefully as a person the way I talk to now being in the job market to these other business owners who bring it up you know they they're like yeah I think about this and that and that and that's the impact that I like to see it's yes a spa the space will be gone and you know one of a kind and and a Pioneer in that sense of inclusivity but uh it it the impact has been made and I hope that people take from that to just make things a little a little better more open yeah I mean I guess I would think you're somebody in the wine industry who's looking at people making more non-alcoholic wine or talking about having more non-alcoholic cocktail stuff on restaurant menus maybe instead of thinking oh no how is this going to affect my market share think about how Maybe one day you're going to have surgery or something and you can't drink for a week and won't you be glad that you can have a glass of wine that doesn't taste like crap because you still want to celebrate your daughter's birthday or friend's uh job promotion whatever it is maybe you don't have a problem but maybe there's somebody in your life who needs you know shame free evidence-based addiction if that's out there and like things are evidence-based is that really going to hurt yeah it's exactly it doesn't it doesn't take away from anything if anything it adds cuz again it it's welcoming that yes catering to that one specific person but think of everyone else who's joining or who's around them and their people I was watching you get interviewed and listening to you talk to the news and you said you painted this picture of everyone has this glass and they're doing a toast MH right and you can have a glass that looks like everyone else's glass and what's in your glass looks like whatever is in everybody else's glass instead you're like oh I have my Coke over here and you feel really left out and if you see that person getting treated well even though they need and want something different from the other people at the table doesn't that open the door for you to feel like you might get accepted to yes and also I want my loved ones to be treated well so I'm not going to go somewhere where they get tra like you know right or they're just an afterthought for something that they need it's not necessarily you know it's not always a choice either and I'm very conscious of the fact that I live in New York and it's still very much a bubble so that's not the case everywhere else which is why I try to lean in even more because I also understand that people look to New York as a an aspirational place of sorts so if they look at all these things that are doing well and being lotted in New York then okay they might start making the changes that that need to be made so open the door M chill out about Joy January chill out focus on what you can do to achieve your goals for your life for your work and for making people feel loved and cared for and if you work in the industry your whole job is to be a hospitaliano and welcome people to host I came to your place you offered me water coffee something else that I don't remember and and I said I'll take this thank thank you so much done that's it no conversation and it's just just the way to welcome someone into your space I think and I would do the exact same for you so for people who have someone kind of newly sober in their life or who meet someone who says I don't drink how can they respond in a way that makes you feel like oh this person's going to be chill you know if someone tells me what do you need or what do you that's it asking the question what would make this better John melany has a really funny skit about Mayo it's like so you don't eat Mayo did you have a problem eating mayo and I was like no one asks those questions about anything else you know I think it was for me I had a house party and someone came to my party and said I don't drink and I didn't know that and I thought oh I don't have anything for them so I I I got this idea of like special drinks for everyone everyone deserves a special drink and like from that moment every time I had a party like I would make a punch that you could Spike on the side or I would always have something that looked great it wasn't like the second tier option my sister and I were hanging out the other day and then she wanted to take a breather so she had a glass of non-alcoholic and then went back to to a cocktail with with alcohol in it it's just different needs different options to make because what did she want she wanted to be around for a longer period of time hanging out had she taken that cocktail right away maybe she would have had to go home or just end it short so that's it again going back to to connection and what can we offer to enhance the possibility of \[Music\] connection Abe how can people follow you on the internet can you spell your Instagram handle let us know your websites again I'm on Instagram uh sober s is s o m m you can find out about the nonprofit at corporate par latino. it's like corporate but latino. org wine on Wheels very important yes too uh wine ons.org that's uh that was created by yanic Benjamin part owner of contento a wheelchair user himself so he has a great great story in every way but specifically having a disability as while he was making his way up the the ladder of the hospitality industry lots of stories there if you ever get a chance to to chat with him about that Wi on Wheels we do a grand annual wine tasting where 40 plus tables each one representing a restaurant or bar around New York City uh they bring their own donated beverages to highlight their program they donate their time their resources and they're there to just pay it forward to a bigger cause so any money uh that we fundraise goes towards other people doing the work for the disability Community or marginalized communities out outside of that too go to the website and and they're cool things last question so contentto close last week the time as we're recording this you're looking for a job but I just want to ask you like in a perfect world like what's your dream what's your what do you see happening for you I used to think work in your passion but no I think there should be a separation for instance corpor Latinos if we ever got to a point where you know I could get a salary from it I still wouldn't you know I want to keep it like my time to volunteer and pay forward yeah I mean I say that now I don't know but with wine it's just uh it's more about the the people around it I I I know that line gets thrown out a lot and it sounds corny almost but my perfect job is a job where people inspire me with their purpose even if it's different from mine like I just like to see people pursuing something bigger than themselves that makes me want to work harder and and do more well if you want to hire Abe if he hasn't been snapped up by the time this interview erors I know you're going to get out of here and go to a job interview in a little B you know how to get in touch with him I wish you the best of luck thank you to our listeners thank you so much for being here wherever you go and whatever you like to drink always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning support us on patreon grab the newsletter at moto.com And subscribe to the YouTube channel at Moto DeBerry to watch the travel show Moto DeBerry TV music for the show was composed by ailia Prosper for the band o purchase their music at the link in the notes Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and filmed by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Picturing Gibraltar ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e9-penelope-flyaway-girl-gibraltar/) [ Spitting Out Your Coffee ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e7-brian-gelletly-barista-trainer/) ### Clean Martini Winter URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/clean-martini-winter/ Last updated: 2026-08-16T05:51:36.000Z Let’s be realistic: most bars make awful dirty martinis. While the classic martini is a reliable order at any bar that carries the gin you like and employs a bartender who is half awake, the “dirtification” of the martini is a shitshow of a process that makes it impossible to tell, from across the bar, if you’re going to get an appropriate accent of olive brine or a repugnant morass of a drink that looks and tastes like Shrek’s own swamp. The honest dirty martini is fundamentally a beverage for degenerate drunks whose home bars or locals are too shambolic to reliably keep fresh lemons around to pare zest off of. Better your bartender dip their hairy knuckles into the olive jar and slosh whatever comes up together with the booze. Otherwise you might be able to taste it too clearly and remember you only sprang for Gordon’s or Smirnoff, having spent the last of your good-booze money on alimony or lottery tickets. Somewhere along the path to making the dirty martini taste good, the drink has lost its soul. The Good Dirty, once a reasonable aim, has reached heights of performativity approaching [*the Bloody Mary garnish towers*](https://www.instagram.com/thebloodymaryfest/p/CBDsZ-lgs3M/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=this-will-make-you-spit-out-your-coffee) of 2010s Instagram. This drink is now, improbably, something high-end bartenders show off with, incorporating a Balkan deli’s worth of pickled vegetables and animal products via fat-washing and God knows what other arcane process. This is not the dirty martini’s place in the world; it is not a drink to be fussed over in this way. The dirty-martini is not meant to be the item you advertise by describing it on the sandwich board outside your bar, then posting a photo of that sandwich board. The associated tinned fish trend was dumb, too. Don’t get me wrong. I love a good tin of fish, but come on, they’re for eating at home unless you live in some charming Spanish village where the local market serves them at a table made out of a barrel. Paying $20-30 for sardines at a gastro pub in New York or London is collective psychosis. The high-ticket umami of the tinned fish / dirty martini pairing is not aesthetic; it’s excess. I suggest this course-correction: the clean martini. Take a break from martinis that make your breath stink and come with me to a world where the martini is once again a fresh, bracing beverage, the way Heaven intended. The clean martini, the pure ideal of this classic drink, should swing back into the zeitgeist as we enter 2025\. Last year was a rollercoaster in every sense of the word, with bad, stale energy that we could only attempt to fat-wash away. May I suggest the crystal clear flavors of gin and citrus for your soul’s annual mid-winter purification. Clean martinis, cold as ice, are the cleanse we need. The classic, clean martini shifts power back to the people. No one on earth could be bothered to replicate the rococo “dirty,” whether at home or at a low-key bar without an armory full of specialized equipment. As delicious as it might turn out to be, I am tired of hearing about Trendy McBartender fat-washing craft gin in the butter a lobster was poached with. The post-pandemic revenge spending era is over and the Trump tariffs are about to wreck the economy too badly to continue justifying all these nights out at fancy bars. My advice? Buy the good gin, and the good vermouth. Mix your martini at home, like an adult. Instagram, if you must. Take in the first sip, then let out the fresh, cold “ahhh” of the martini’s Platonic ideal. I am putting good gin in my drink. I am going to be able to taste that gin because my ratio is two parts gin, 1 part vermouth. Nothing else is going in it besides orange bitters and the expressed oils of one sliver of lemon peel. That’s it, *basta*: the antidote to the dirty martini trend’s baroque excess. It’s what the world needs now. ### ▷S3E7 Brian Gelletly, Barista Trainer, Spits Out His Favorite Drinks URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e7-brian-gelletly-barista-trainer/ Last updated: 2026-08-26T15:39:12.000Z Brian Gelletly is a barista trainer [with a sensitivity to caffeine](https://whyy.org/articles/philly-trailblazing-barista-cant-enjoy-his-own-work/?ref=mododibere.com). Brian and Rose Thomas share the secrets of beverage professionals who spend their days spitting out their favorite drinks In Modo di Bere's first episode about coffee. They divulge specific spitting techniques, from spittoon styles to mustache technique, along with general advice for avoiding machismo and protecting your health as a student of liquids. Brian and RT consider parallels between coffee and wine in terms of biodiversity, climate change and sense of place. Brian spills the beans (or the seeds, actually) on what a coffee cherry tastes like and his one piece of advice for improving the espresso you brew at home. For local language, we're in Philadelphia. What's a "jawn," how to order a beer in Philly, and why do residents refer to the water as "Schuylkill punch"? Brian is an educator and he beautifully explains the answers to these burning questions, along with coffee basics such as the difference between "coffee" and "espresso," why Italian and American coffee taste so different, and how to evaluate a well-pulled shot. Come for the information and stay for the joy as Brian and RT talk about the wines and coffees that gave them shivers and inspired their devotion. **Edited autotranscript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript ## 0:00 Introducing Brian Gelletly, Barista Trainer **BRIAN:** Kind of in a similar way that drew me to wine and coffee, just like this sort of visceral pleasure, this like deep sense of like this is amazing, like this is something very special. Like when when I would listen to certain pieces of music and be moved to having shivers, I just wanted to understand that better. **RT:** \[Music\] Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. \[Music\] **RT:** My guest, Brian Gelletly, travels around every day educating people on how to properly make coffee. Brian, when we met, we discussed the entertaining reality that the more you get into beverages, the more you end up spending the entire day spitting out your favorite liquid. Yes, it's a thing, people. It's really fun. Brian's going to talk to us about life as a coffee taster and teach us how to taste coffee like a professional. Brian, we're also a big fan of cocktails, beer, and wine. But before we get into your journey as a student of liquids, I like to start the show by asking my guests for a local drink and a local saying. Brian, where are you from originally? **BRIAN:** Cool. So, I grew up in Pennsylvania. My childhood mostly in South Central Pennsylvania, South Middle, but then I moved in when I was 18 to Philadelphia and spent 10 years of my life in Philly. I feel like Philly has been a big impact on like who I am today. Yeah. Then I moved to New York when I was 28. ## 1:54 The Philly Dialect **RT:** Oh man, Philly. I love Philly for like the local accent and everything. Do you remember any kind of kind of Philadelphia sayings that you can share? **BRIAN:** You know, I'm really terrible about doing accents, but um of course there's always the like the term "jawn" like for any sort of thing you wanted to refer to. Um talk about "wudder", drinking water. **RT:** What's a jawn? **BRIAN:** Jawn. "Jawn" just means like you can use it as a word to describe any sort of noun like you know, can you pass me that jawn over there? Potentially from the word joint like, like— **RT:** Oh, funny. **BRIAN:** Yeah. **RT:** Is it like does it mean like thingy? **BRIAN:** It means like thingy. **RT:** Yeah. I have heard that before, but I I don't know if anyone's ever really explained it to me. **BRIAN:** Yeah. The phrase I was thinking about sharing with you today is I've heard some people when I was living in Philly describe the tap water as Schuylkill punch. What? Which might need a little bit of background to understand what they're saying there. But in Philly there's two main rivers that pass through the city. There's the Delaware River on the east side. And then there's the Schuylkill River that goes through more on the west side, a smaller river between the two. But the Schuylkill River does have some water inlets to like into the water Philadelphia water system. **BRIAN:** And especially as like a person coming from the coffee background, like something I was exposed to a lot more as a barista was thinking about water quality. And Philly is famously like not the best tasting water in the tap. Like it's very healthy. You know, you're not going to get sick if you drink the tap water. But it does have a a flavor to it. Not quite minerally in the way that we refer to in nice wines, but there's definitely this sort of like maybe chemical, maybe like rocky taste to it. **BRIAN:** So some some locals uh lovingly refer to it as like "Schuylkill Punch" which I think is also kind of interesting because in the liquor world sometimes we talk about like liquor like compare it to water like eau de vie whiskey **RT:** Meaning water of life. **BRIAN:** Yeah. Or aguardiente, angry water spicy water. Yeah. But this kind of like is the opposite direction like thinking about water as a cocktail or as a some sort of alcoholic thing because maybe in like a not so flattering way. **RT:** Schuylkill. **BRIAN:** Schuylkill. Yeah. Yeah. That's also got a uh I definitely before I myself relocated to the east coast from the Western American Western American Midwest. I think that was a word that I would not have known how to pronounce. **RT:** So, how is that spelled? **BRIAN:** Uh, let me see if I can think of it on the fly. S c h u y l k k i l l. It's from Dutch. **RT:** Schuylkill. Schuylkill. **BRIAN:** Yeah, it looks like skoy kill, but people say Schuylkill. Apparently hidden river in Dutch. Hidden river. **RT:** Oh, okay. **BRIAN:** Like Fishkill is like "fish river," right? **RT:** Okay. Schuylkill Punch! Here we are again with with water as our water as you would say it. **BRIAN:** That's right. **RT:** I kind of want to ask you about the water in in as a barista and the water quality because I'm sure that makes a big difference. But maybe we could start by telling me a little bit about your path into beverages as a career. ## 5:15 Specialty Coffee Career Path **BRIAN:** Cool. My path started well I guess technically started when I was in high school. I worked very very very part time like twice a month at a local cafe because it was a bookstore cafe in my hometown and I wanted to be artsy and it seemed like a cool hangout and the boss was this guy who seemed to like know a lot. He's very softspoken but very smart. **BRIAN:** So I asked if I could get a job there and he let me work there some pulling shots but not really knowing you know he trained me trained me some but definitely a different approach than what I learned ultimately. I I think I've always been fascinated by coffee. Like eventually once I started liking the taste of it, I spent some time in Italy on an abroad program drinking some espresso, which now might not be the kind of espresso I want to drink, but it's really special in its own way. Very important style, obviously. **BRIAN:** But after I finished college, which was in 2008, um really good time to find a job! Especially as a music major. Was applying to a few jobs and the only place that really gave me an interview was this cafe that was opening up. When it finally opened up, I got some training, which was my first look into how complicated or, you know, how detail oriented coffee preparation could be. You don't always have to take the level of detail like that. **BRIAN:** I learned to make decent coffee, but if you want the coffee to be really good, something I discovered, and like it takes a lot of attention to detail, like weighing things and trying to be repeatable in the in your technique. So, I got some training there from a representative from the coffee roaster we were using at that cafe. **BRIAN:** And like I thought, you know, I was just going to be like a cool guy slinging coffee behind the counter, but then it became this sort of puzzle that I got to explore like how do I make the coffee taste good or like if it's not tasting as good as it could, what steps can I take to make it taste better? And that sort of puzzle approach made me like kind of like deeply affected me trying to figure it out. Worked at a couple other cafes in Philly trying to expand my knowledge. Did some barista competitions. **BRIAN:** Got to meet a lot of people in the wider industry. Did a little bit of traveling like from Philly visited New York to visit some cafes and get overcaffeinated and like just drink delicious things. **RT:** Sounds like a wonderful field trip. **BRIAN:** Yeah. Yeah. It was wonderful 'cause I I did taste it was very minding like I tasted some really delicious coffees at some of the shops I went to. But then it also reminds me of like how I didn't always have the healthiest relationship with caffeine. Yeah. So like I went to maybe six or seven coffee shops in a day and had a double espresso or a drink with a double espresso in each of them. By the end of the day I felt really bad like why do I feel so anxious? Why do I feel like I need to leave my body? Uh it shouldn't have been a surprise. **RT:** So, when you're tasting coffee now as a a coffee trainer, right, that how do you how many coffees a day are you are you potentially how many different cups are you potentially putting in your mouth? **BRIAN:** Yeah, that's a I never really counted it. Definitely like have to taste at least, you know, some days at least 20\. Sometimes more. A big part of my job is as a barista trainer. We have a little lab for the company I work for currently. Sometimes I teach up to four people at a time and they're each making bunch of drinks. It's like repetition is a good way to really nail like the right texture, the right temperature, making sure the espresso tastes good. So they're each making a bunch of drinks and I'm like taking little sips of it to try to give them feedback. It might be up to 100 or more. **RT:** Wow. **BRIAN:** I'd have to have to think about it a little harder next time. ## 8:53 Drinks Professionals Spit a Lot **RT:** So in the in the wine world, we have spittoons, which is this wonderful kind of old west term, something from like a western, you know, you're spitting the tobacco into this giant urn, you know, like the cowboys. But we have them in wine and then there's a little, you know, spit bucket sometimes with a kind of inverted conical flow... **BRIAN:** Right. To hide, right? **RT:** Well, it's it's a sort of a lid with um, how would you describe it? **BRIAN:** A funnel? **RT:** Yeah, like a funnel-like lid. To prevent...... backsplash, you know. **BRIAN:** Yes. **RT:** And and also to kind of hide the the schmutz from from view. Do you have something like this or you just got kind of got a little a little paper cup? **BRIAN:** Actually, yeah. Some of my co-workers use this plastic thing that's exactly what you're describing, but like handheld. **RT:** Ooh. Individual ones. Those are a bit challenging to open. And then when you've been drinking a lot of espresso and milk drinks, that's like even grosser to me than what I end up doing, which is I usually just use a paper cup and try to discreetly spit into it because I feel **RT:** Kind of a spew. **BRIAN:** Yeah, 'cause if you spit out wine, it's kind of gross, but it it it doesn't look much different than wine. But if you spit out like a latte, there's something just about — **RT:** The color! **BRIAN:** —milky milky coffee coming out of my mouth that I don't think people want to see. So, I try to like discreetly like hold the cup up to my mouth and just Yeah. get rid of the coffee and milk out of my mouth. **RT:** Well, you have a you have a lovely beard and mustache. I guess you could grow that really into a great great big and sort of hide behind them. **BRIAN:** Yeah. Actually, for a period, especially before 2020, I had a bigger beard and sometimes my mustache mustache would get a little out of hand and so trying to like evaluate cappuccinos with my mustache and like I would like have to take a sip and then like hide my hide my mouth so people wouldn't see how gross that looks. But I'm at this point now where basically when I'm at my coffee job, any coffee I drink, I have to spit out because I realized over years like that my biggest problems with caffeine and a caffeination be came from varying the levels from the day to day. So like I need to like get a certain amount of caffeine, no less than that, but then above that is bad. **RT:** So you keep it consistent. **BRIAN:** That's right. ## 10:40 Working in Coffee with a Caffeine Sensitivity **RT:** How many cups of coffee do you actually consume? **BRIAN:** I'm a huge traitor these days. I've been I realized and it might be psychosomatic or you know, all in my head, but I do feel like when I drink tea my caffeination doesn't get me quite as anxious. And as someone you know with some level of background anxiety all the time like I guess it's interesting to see how many of people like me gravitate towards the coffee world. But then these days, I feel like if I drink some tea, I can feel a little bit more like I'm moderated in my my anxiety level, but then also getting making sure I get the right amount of caffeine. I usually just drink two cups of tea a day. **RT:** Like in the morning back to back, or do you space it out? **BRIAN:** I try to space it out. Yeah. So, what I do is I drink like some oolong in the morning like five grams as my dose. **RT:** You measure it! With with a scale? Great! **BRIAN:** Absolutely. I can't control it. I have to do it. And then I drink that and then usually around like 1 or 2 p.m. I feel the need like I start getting a little bit of withdrawal and then that's my time that's telling me like okay time for my second cup. Sometimes I'm hanging out with my friend and like on a Sunday afternoon and I I will have forgotten that I haven't had my tea yet and then in the middle of our hang I'm like oh wait I need to get caffeine right now because if I don't I'm gonna have a headache and I won't be good to hang out with. **RT:** So, do you use oolong for your second cup or do you vary your your second cup? **BRIAN:** Most of the time I'm mostly just drinking oolong tea these days. I just love the flavor and the way it makes me feel, but I you know, I love a green tea, love a black tea. **RT:** That's awesome. Do you get as um intensely involved in researching your tea choices as you do in your coffee or... **BRIAN:** If I'm being honest, not to the same level. **RT:** Sure. **BRIAN:** There's obviously a huge world of tea drinking out there. And I have certain places I like to buy teas from. There's like a certain tea shop in the village that I like to get some oolong from. I have a friend out of state who some, you know, I sometimes buy some tea off of him cuz he has a little tea business. **RT:** As a wine professional, I don't think you need to feel like a traitor. And I will also share the secret that that many of us after working tasting wine all day will just at the at the end of the day really reach for like a nice pilsner. Yeah. Something like this. \[Music\] **RT:** Now, you're also into wine as well. **BRIAN:** I am into wine. I love wine. **RT:** And and and beer? Cocktails? Tell me about a little bit about your your path through different beverages. **BRIAN:** Studying beverages. Yeah. I guess a big part of me getting into the world of drinks after I was involved in coffee was through beer because I was in Philly. Philly still is. and at the time was a big beer town. Some of that might have something to do with the state control over liquor and wine. Which has been changing in the last few years. And it also might have to do just with like the background of people living there and like you know like it's like a working-class city in my mind. So beer is just like everywhere you go. ## 13:38 The Citywide Special, Philadelphia's Local Drink **RT:** You told me about the citywide special. **BRIAN:** That's right. Yeah. I wanted to tell you about the citywide special. That's my my drink or like that's the drink I wanted to share about with my hometown, my adopted hometown of Philly. So, when you're out at a dive bar in Philly and you want to feel the buzz, many of the the dive bars still apparently used to be more popular back in the maybe the '70s. This drink where well, I guess it's not a drink, it's a pairing of really cheap whiskey and some cheap beer, which is usually Yuengling Logger. **BRIAN:** So, you take the shot uh maybe Heaven Hill or something like that or Jameson if if you're at a good bar, if you're at a nice nice dive. And then you just drink the the lager afterwards, which when you're in Philly, if you call it Yuengling Lager, they correct you and like, "Okay, a lager." ## 14:38 How to Order a Beer in Philly **RT:** Oh, right. It's the only one. To realize like as like a 21-year-old going out to the bars and I'd be like, "Hey, can I get a Yuengling Lager?" They like, "Okay, lager." **RT:** The brand name is not necessary. Please, come on. What else would you What other lager would you drink? **BRIAN:** I don't I can't drink like that anymore cuz, you know, I was 22, 21\. And then when I was a barista, you know, 22, 23, going out with some other baristas to the drag shows and that kind of thing, having a good time. That definitely affects me different now. So, but then even when I was still in Philly, I was trying to start getting interested in cocktails. This idea of like mixing things together, uh trying to find a balance or some sort of synergy between different kinds of ingredients started fascinating me. ## 16:27 How a Coffee Pro Got Into Wine **BRIAN:** So, I started going to some cocktail bars and buying some ingredients from the the state stores. And I think that was a big introduction to me really understanding the concept of balance because that was one of those things some of my early barista trainers and bosses had talked about. But for a while I was a little bit suspicious like balance isn't really a thing. Like I just want it to be exciting. But eventually like I realized when things are at certain proportions like they just are even more amazing. **BRIAN:** Like when you get that sweetness and acidity like in unison or a little bitterness but not too much. I think getting into cocktails helped me actually be a better barista and a better barista competitor. And then I was still pretty fascinated by cocktails when I moved to New York City in 2014. **RT:** It's a really fun city for cocktails. **BRIAN:** Yeah, New York City is a great cocktail town. Plenty of different styles of cocktails. Uh, one of the places I would frequent early on was specializing in bitter cocktails, like lots of Amaros. **RT:** We love that. The Italian stuff. **BRIAN:** The vermouths and and they're just some cocktails that I still to this day like would love to drink all the time. But then eventually I started thinking like thinking more about wine like remembering like realizing that it was a whole world that I had very little knowledge or context for. **RT:** Yeah. **BRIAN:** So after like dating this one guy and drinking some tasty wines with him because he was always really good at picking out bottles of wine that we enjoyed. I realized I wanted to explore wine and understand it better. So, I started going to certain wine stores at that I had some trust in and asking for some recommendations and starting to take notes and then exploring like what I liked, trying to figure out the styles, the grapes, the wine makers, the regions. One of the pursuits was like I just wanted to get better at picking things I knew I would like. So now I can either at a at a wine bar pick out something from the list that I know I'm going to like or if there's something there I'm not familiar with, it could be a learning opportunity. **RT:** Right? Then the thing that you don't know becomes, you know, curiosity instead of like, "Oh gosh, I'm in the dark. I have no idea. I don't know what to choose." You just say, "Oo, I I've never heard of this. Let's get that." **BRIAN:** Yeah. And as someone who hasn't like necessarily academically studied wine yet, but spend a bit of energy trying to explore it and and now work in it. **RT:** Okay. So, you also you also um do a little wine retail alongside the coffee training, which is which is cool. So, you can kind of balance keep those keep all those all those different liquids in balance in your in your day and your evening. Yeah. **BRIAN:** Yeah. I still feel like though that there's so much that I need to learn, that there's so much to to learn. Like like I know a bit, but then some people ask me some things that I just have no clue about. And I have to be honest and humble about that. Now I realize like, you know what, I don't know about that wine. **RT:** Oh man. You know, I like to I like to say that wine is the most "The more you know, the less you know subject that I've ever encountered. It's it's there's no way to really if anyone is not humble about it. I don't I suspect they don't know much. **BRIAN:** That's right. **RT:** I also like to say you know you could learn every if you could learn every single wine in the world which I don't know who can it would all change the following year, the following vintage, as we like to say. **BRIAN:** That's right. Yeah. Well when I was new to wine kind of like when I was new to coffee I I felt like I knew a lot and I was a little bit proud like yeah like I I have good taste and then eventually like oh wait there's so much I don't know. ## 20:18 Does Coffee Have "Terroir"? **RT:** Well let's let's talk about a little bit about what you do know. Let's start with this idea of what you were calling a sense of place. In in wine, we talk a lot about the concept of terroir, which could be described as a confluence of all the factors that give this wine a sense of place. So, you end up with the glass of wine that could not taste the way it does if it were grown anywhere else. These factors include what type of grape you're working with and the climate, elevation, soil, you know, even local culture and history, everything about this place where these grapes are grown. So is there a similar term like terroir for talking about a sense of place in coffee farming or do you just say "sense of place"? **BRIAN:** Yeah, honestly that does exist in the coffee world. I think on the whole we don't necessarily talk about it quite as much. We do talk about how coffees from certain countries tend to have a certain profile and to some degree we do talk about coffee variety like you know you have your cabernet and your chardonnays in wine. In coffee there's like Bourbon, Typica, Pacamara. **RT:** Are there are they different species of coffee or are they just subtypes? What are what's these plants that we're dealing with? **BRIAN:** Cool. Yeah. So coffee as many of your listeners may know, it comes from a plant. It's a tropical plant that produces a fruit. We call it a coffee cherry. In each coffee cherry, usually there's two seeds where coffee is grown. After the coffee is harvested, those seeds have to get dried out. And then ultimately those seeds are roasted and become what we call coffee beans. **RT:** Oh, but it's not a bean at all, is it? **BRIAN:** Not not technically. Yeah, it's like if you wanted to be a real pedant, you could like if you want to be really pedantic, you could say like, "Oh, I'll have some toasted coffee seeds, please." **RT:** That does sound funny! **BRIAN:** Yeah, no one says that. \[laughs\] Oh yeah, so, you're asking me about different varieties, different species. There are different species of coffee. Most coffee that we drink in the US and in the world is a spe comes from a species called Coffea arabica. You've probably heard of Arabica coffee, that's from that species. Definitely has a reputation for tasting sweeter, tasting less bitter, maybe having a little bit brighter acidity uh than the other main species that's also grown to a lesser extent. There's coffee grown of the species, The species is Coffea canephora, often called robusta or Robusta for its most popular variety. **BRIAN:** Robusta doesn't have the same cachet, the same reputation. It tends to be more bitter. Sometimes it can be a little rubbery in taste. But this is one of those things too where like a lot of times some of the best soils were kept for the better like the the species with the better reputation, Arabica. **RT:** Yes. **BRIAN:** So sometimes you're also kind of like not giving Robusta the benefit of that you're giving this other one. So there is some shifting attitudes about Robusta in the coffee industry. Like maybe if we planted it in better places, harvest, you know, took better care of those plants, harvested it, you know, in certain ways, processed it certain ways, it could benefit the flavor in some ways. So that's something to look out for, especially like with global climate change. A lot of coffee farmers are finding that where Arabica has been planted well for hundreds of years maybe aren't going to be quite as reliable the next, you know, decades to centuries. **RT:** It's nice to hear that the robusta underdog is getting its due. It's good to keep an open mind. **BRIAN:** I kind of also in my mind compare robusta to like Vitis labrusca and some of these North American species that for a long time haven't been considered like the best grapes for wine making. But you can have some pretty tasty wines made from them and maybe it's worth exploring that especially when you're a wine maker in North America working with some local grapes. **RT:** That's that's so interesting. And that was the other thing I was thinking too of of what you were saying about kind of there being a main species that kind of the fine coffee is made from and then but then there's also this other thing that's maybe less common. So, so virtually all of the fine wines that we know and drink in the world are made out of the Vitis vinifera species, but as you mentioned, there are several others, American grape, you know from this hemisphere over here, the Vitis labrusca being being one of them. **RT:** Yeah, there are several, and they are also really talking about those grapes and their capacity to, you know, continue to maybe sort of save wine as as we move along in the hopefully reverse. Hopefully we can, you know, get get with it. But as as the climate is changing, that that becomes definitely those those grape varieties and hybrid, you know, hybrids between species, have definitely been a part of the conversation. So that's really interesting. **BRIAN:** There's hybrids between Robusta and Arabica. **RT:** Oh, sure. **BRIAN:** Planted somewhat widely now in like around the world. I think for the most part they've been bred to try to give you the flavor profile of Arabica, but then some of the hardiness of Robusta like resistance to pests and certain diseases and just growing faster. **RT:** Sure. So, we were talking about, you know, caffeine levels and stuff, too. So, yeah. talk talk to me a little bit about that between the different species. Is there is there a difference in the end product? **BRIAN:** That's what that's right. That's what we say. It's one of those things I haven't like looked into the research on like actually looked at scientific studies, but you talk to most coffee people, they'll tell you that Robusta has twice as much caffeine as Arabica. **RT:** The robust one! **BRIAN:** That's right. And that may be part of why it can be more robust because caffeine does work as a sort of insecticide. **RT:** Oo! **BRIAN:** It interrupts the neural pathways of insects, that sort of thing. So, that kind of makes me think about how when I was in third grade or something like that, I saw some anti-drug campaign that was showing a spider trying to weave a web after ingesting various— ## 28:01 "This is Your Brain On Caffeine" **RT:** I think I think the D.A.R.E program. I think the —the poor spider! **BRIAN:** And it was like, you know, this is the spider on psilocybin, this is the spider on nicotine, this is the spider on caffeine, this is it on heroin. **RT:** Did they really do that? **BRIAN:** I feel like I saw something like that. It may have been from D.A.R.E... **RT:** No, no, I saw those images as well, but I wonder, you know, I'm like, is that was that a real study? Little spiders. How did they even give them these things? **BRIAN:** So, yeah, a lot of those compounds are alkaloids, which are part of like some of the in some cases the plant's natural defense system. So, the way that an like an insect or an arachnid is affected by the caffeine is going to be a lot different than our experience with caffeine as humans. **RT:** We're pretty different from arachnids. **BRIAN:** That's right. Yeah. So, I'm not really learning much from how caffeine or heroin affects a spider. You know, I'm a I'm a human. I have different like nerve endings. And so, caffeine like for us as humans, it interrupts like the adenosine receptors like attaches to them. So, when your body builds up adenosine, it's a signal to your body like, hey, it's time to kind of chill out, wind down, time to to rest. But if you put some caffeine in your system, it blocks those blockers. It blocks those receptors. You have this illusion of more alertness or less tiredness. Yeah, Arabica has less caffeine. **BRIAN:** I guess summing that up. And there are some other species that are maybe growing wild in parts of Africa. Some of which are being looked into to be cultivated as a crop. Especially again with Arabica maybe, you know, having some issues or some like concerns about its future around the world. Some of which have do do have different caffeine levels. ## 29:58 What's the Difference Between Coffee and Espresso? **RT:** I've also heard that um espresso has less caffeine than than regular coffee. Is so is that more of a processing change or do you use a different type of coffee to make espresso Forgive me for my ignorance on this basic point. **BRIAN:** It's a big world. Yeah. It's like that's such a good question and it's—it would require such a layered response some of which I'm prepared for but maybe not fully. One quick little aside is that Italian espresso making like usually uses at least a little bit of Robusta in their espresso blends. So which gives you a little more crema, gives you more caffeine. **RT:** Crema being...? **BRIAN:** Crema being like the layer on top of the espresso. Like when you have some fresh coffee, there's carbon dioxide from the roasting process trapped in the bean. When you brew it with pressurized water, which is what happens during espresso brewing, it emulsifies some of the oils in there with the water and traps in a bunch of the air bubbles like some of aromatics, some carbon dioxide. So when you have pretty fresh coffee, and you brew it under high pressure, it develops this sort of creamy film substance on top. We call crema, Italian for cream. **RT:** I had an experience working brunch at an Italian restaurant, which of course, you know, you're very serious about the coffee there, but you know, I was just kind of dipping my toe into that world, trying to do my best with the and I remember having a a customer looking at the the drink that I had pulled and saying, "Where's the crema?" And at first I thought, "Oh my goodness, you know, what a fuss-budget." And then then, you know, then then I thought, "No, no, no, he's right. This is this is a lovely thing." And I think I just kind of obliterated the crema with the the way that I shot this hot water from the spigot right in there and I right? Like I think I I wrecked it. That's right. **BRIAN:** Actually, one of my early experiences as a barista was I made an espresso and then I poured water over to make it an Americano and then all of the espresso dissolved and then the customer's like where's the crema? **RT:** You had this identical experience. **BRIAN:** Yeah. And and some of that comes from a sort of paranoia or like the sort of superstition might be a better word for it. I think it is true that all good espressos will have crema on them because it relates to the freshness of the coffee. It relates to certain things that are happening during the brewing process, but not all shots, not all espressos that have crema will taste good necessarily. So it's like some people say, oh, it has crema, it'll be good. My my mindset might be like, okay, there's crema, it might be good. Instead of like, if there's no crema, what what went wrong during that brewing process? **RT:** Sure. **BRIAN:** Oh, yeah. And I guess just even more context, don't know if you need it, but when I think about espresso, I think you could use any kind of coffee beans to brew it. So I think of espresso as just a brewing process using pressurized hot water, usually around nine bars of pressure to brew the coffee. So you're brewing it under pressure. So it happens a lot faster. And you could use any **RT:** like a pressure cooker. **BRIAN:** Yeah, that's right. **RT:** Like the Instant Pot of of coffee. ## 32:42 Differences Between Italian and American Coffee **BRIAN:** Yeah. So maybe it happens like less than 30 seconds to brew an entire espresso. Um, Italians might use seven grams of coffee to brew a single espresso, 14 for a double. In the US when I was start starting to get get into uh being a barista, a lot of places were using 21 grams to brew an espresso, calling it a triple espresso, which is **RT:** Bigger. Everything big American big coffee. **BRIAN:** Big coffee. Yeah. Get me my caffeine now! So, I think since then, that was like 2009\. As an industry, we sort of backed off, got a little bit slightly more healthy relationship with the caffeine in the drinks. But nowadays, a lot of US cafe coffee shops in the specialty market are using 18 to 20 gram of coffee and calling it a double, even though it's only a little less than what we were doing as triples a few years ago. So part of the amount of caffeine in the drink comes to how much ground coffee you use to brew it. **BRIAN:** So when I use nowadays, I'm using 18 g of coffee to brew a double espresso. It's going to have probably not any more like any more caffeine in it than I would get if I used 18 grams of coffee to brew a drip coffee. And with the typical coffee to water ratio that a lot of places would use in the US with 18 g of coffee with coffee grounds, I would probably be getting a 8 oz beverage. **RT:** I see. So, so if you think I'm going to I'm going to get less caffeine. I'm going to order a latte. There are most places pulling what they're calling a double shot, which is barely under 2009's triple. So you— **BRIAN:** Yeah. **RT:** Okay. So, I could see this getting a lot more complicated really fast. And then and then like there's been there's one coffee professional that I look up to I respect and like pretty much like anything he says I'm like, "Okay, there's probably a lot of truth to that." He did like some very preliminary testing on espresso like caffeine levels. His name is James Hoffman. And he found that for a lot of the espressos he was brewing and getting around the around his city the caffeine level was actually a little lower than you would expect from the given dose like the 18 grams versus using that amount of coffee for a drip coffee that the amount of coffee grounds for a drip coffee. So maybe the quick brewing process doesn't— **RT:** Doesn't extract as much! **BRIAN:** the caffeine coming out of the espresso as much as we might have thought. ## 35:25 Coffee Roasting 101 **RT:** Now you said you could make an espresso drink with any kind of coffee bean. But there must be some kind of difference in the roasting pattern or the blend. What what's if you're at the store and you have a bag of coffee that's marked coffee and a bag of coffee that's marked for espresso? What's the difference? **BRIAN:** Cool. That is stylistic yet cultural. There's definitely very strong trends in that market in that in that way. Typically, people tend to expect or prefer a darker roasted coffee for espresso. **RT:** What does that mean? Darker roasted? **BRIAN:** Okay, great. So, when we think about coffee roasting, there's a couple different factors that influence the final taste. One of which is first of all just how long you're roasting the coffee for. Like, is it 8 minutes? Is it 12 minutes? But then another huge impact, maybe even bigger impact is how hot those coffee beans are getting during the roasting process. I've never actually roasted coffee, but spent a lot of time in this the room with roasters who are talking about it. So, take what I say with a grain of salt. **BRIAN:** But, you know, there's definitely going to be a giant difference in the flavor profile of a coffee if you get it to 400° F, 410, 420, up to maybe 500 or so degrees Farenheit, it goes through a few different stages in this roasting process. If you roast it darker, you get it hotter. Generally, it's going to have more of those flavors of—when you think about if you are cooking a pizza sometimes you might or even bread like you get like a very light brown. **BRIAN:** If you bake it kind of less or in a lower temperature, but then if you bake it a lot, like if you get that sort of like thin crust pizza with those burnt spots on the bottom. **RT:** I do like those. **BRIAN:** Yeah. develop some of those like more carbonized flavors like almost like something burnt a little bit which to me I love a lot in a certain moderation when you start getting those even darker roasts it'd be kind of like in my op my opinion like my bias I kind of think about if you burnt the whole pizza if it's like a very dark roast. But in coffee like that gives you that sort of bold like smoky flavor and tends to mute the acidity. **RT:** Ah. **BRIAN:** I guess that's the big the big takeaway here is that so a lighter roast would have a higher acidity generally. Yeah. Um that's right. And a lot of times the coffees that people want to highlight like for their varietal character or their taste of place might be roasted a little a little lighter so that you know you're not covering those delicate aromas with the taste of, like, you know, smoke. Espresso being a form of coffee that's been brewed very concentrated typically and in a short amount of time tends to highlight the acidity of that coffee. **BRIAN:** So if you're brewing generally if you brew any coffee maybe faster than ideal you notice a lot of acidity because some of those acidic flavors the brightness um that comes out you generally we notice there's a very strong trend like those flavors come out early on in the extraction process takes a little more time to extract the sweeter and then the more bittersweet flavors than the you know very bitter flavors. **BRIAN:** So when you're brewing a coffee, 30 seconds under pressure, and then having it be very concentrated, like not very diluted, if you have a coffee that has a lot of acidity, it's going to be extremely acidic as espresso. So some people who like that sort of vibrant taste of coffee might like a light roasted Ethiopian or Kenyon coffee as espresso, but most coffee consumers will be very very concerned or very like surprised by that flavor profile or might need a little bit of context to understand like what's going on here like is this coffee because it might taste more like fruit juice depending. **BRIAN:** So generally though, the trend is for darker roasted coffees to mute the acidity, bring out that sort of rich dark chocolate smoky flavor. **RT:** That's what you would use for your espresso. **BRIAN:** That's what most people would use for their espresso. Yeah. If you're in the grocery store and you see something labeled as espresso coffee, that that's that roaster saying, "We think that this would be good as espresso." Probably because we selected certain coffees maybe with more muted acidity and we probably roasted it a little darker. **RT:** So now we're talking about a blend. **BRIAN:** Oh wow! **RT:** So there's roasting and then there's blending, right? So what tell me a little bit about that. **BRIAN:** Yeah. So different coffees around the world are maybe noted for different kinds of flavor profiles. Like certain coffees from Central America might have a citric acidity, but like in a very balanced way that the coffee might also taste kind of nutty and chocolatey. And that's when we think about coffee that's processed in the dominant way that's processed around the world. So after the coffee is harvested, the outer layers of fruit are removed through various steps. And then the coffee bean itself is dried without any of its own fruit still on. So if you leave the fruit on, it's what we call a natural processed coffee delivers some of these flavors of like dried fruit. ## 39:34 What does a coffee cherry taste like? **RT:** Oh. So what what does that coffee fruit taste like? Have you ever eaten a coffee cherry? **BRIAN:** I have. Yeah. I've been to Guatemala three times now. And some of the farmers have been gracious enough to let me chew on a few coffee cherries. My memory of it is it tastes kind of like a cherry, kind of like melon. Sometimes maybe depending on the variety it might even have a little of this sort of green pepper flavor kind like what we think of like Cab Franc pyrazines, to like at least a small degree. Yeah. **RT:** Pyrazines being the sort of scientific name for that bell pepper flavor. Yeah. The green bell pepper that you get in Sauvignon Blanc as well. **BRIAN:** Oh yeah that's right. When you eat a coffee cherry though there's not actually much fruit on like around the seeds. So you maybe get a one drop or two of juice. You get some of this fruity flavor and then you have a little tough skin to still chew on. So it's like one of those things that's like a very fleeting experience. You you taste Yeah. that burst of fruit and then gone and then hopefully you have evaluated it. **RT:** Oh, I haven't gotten to have that experience. I did get to visit a coffee finca, which I learned was the the term for coffee farm in Guatemala. In Guatemala, you know, just kind of on the hillside and and seeing these these little coffee plants and and big butterflies flying around and and kind of people bellowing at each other from hillside to hillside like in a Ricola commercial, the cough drops and you know that just I had—it was a wonderful day. I was really excited to get to have that experience. \[Music\] ## 41:06 What do coffee plants look like? **BRIAN:** Cool. So yeah, I'm not an agronomist or anything like that. So again, take my what I say with a grain of salt, but in general, my understanding of coffee plants like they range in height depending on variety uh and also pruning practices, but maybe an average coffee tree or coffee treelet might be about six feet, maybe seven feet. Um, there's a a widely planted variety of Arabica called Bourbon, which has a mutation called Caturra, which is a dwarf. We could say dwarf Bourbon, uh, spelled like bourbon. **BRIAN:** There's some history there for another day or another part of this podcast, but a caturra maybe is like 3 ft tall. Usually there's this one trunk going up that's generally pretty thin because sometimes we're thinking about coffee plants that are only like 3 to 20 years old with branches coming outwards. Relatively large sort of waxy sometimes leaves. You know, they flower. There's a little white flower that comes up after maybe after the the rainy periods and where they're grown and then that's where the coffee cherries grow eventually, which ripen at various rates even on the same branch. **BRIAN:** And then we find that a lot of the best coffees tend to kind of when we think about wine tasting better when it has struggled to some degree. **RT:** Sure. **BRIAN:** It's not quite as extreme with coffee because apparently some of the best coffees need a lot of nutrients in the soil. But with coffee— **RT:** Right, whereas wine likes wine vines like to, kind of in the opposite of, viticulture being the opposite of agriculture. They like those poorly unfertile soils cause a good result in wine which is again another conversation. But yeah, no no I'm not—you're not derailing. This is all just just making connections. **BRIAN:** But one connection that I have seen that's very strong is like in coffee we do find shade. That is a thing that can really help coffee cherries ripen slower so that they don't ripen too fast. So if the the coffee ripens slower has a little more time to build up the sweetness like the sort of perceived sweetness and then have a a more balanced acidity like a more pleasant acidity. So that's what why coffee grown in the mountains tends to have a a better reputation because generally better balance of acidity maybe a little brighter acidity and maybe more perceived sweetness. **RT:** So when you're talking about a blend blending versus single varietal in in wine grapes, a lot of times you're still talking about grapes that are being grown in one on one region. But with a coffee blend, it seems like you the sense of place, you know, maybe you are actually pulling coffee from different parts of the world to make your blend. Is that is that what you were telling me? **BRIAN:** That's right. That's right. So some blends you might see like they might be from multiple countries within a like a single continent. Bbut then some blends you'll see like might have a coffee from Guatemala paired with a coffee from Ethiopia for instance, maybe like a wash coffee from Ethiopia could lend it some more like delicate floral aromatics. ## 45:12 How Important is Water for Making Great Coffee? **RT:** Can we talk a little bit about the water again? So, do you want to use your Schuylkill Punch in in your coffee making or are you going to butcher that water? What's the what's the when you're brewing your coffee, what what are you looking for in the water? **BRIAN:** So, obviously all this comes down to how fussy you are with your coffee drinking. Like I'm obviously on one end of the spectrum there, like being especially fussy. Uh so when I was living in Philly, I would I at least want to have it be filtered through, you know, one of the filters you'd keep in your kitchen fridge or what have you. **RT:** Like a Brita. **BRIAN:** That's right. I worked for a a company in Philly where the owner was especially fastidious and especially like well informed about these topics and when he opened he installed a reverse osmosis system in the basement so that all of our water would be filtered like very heavily because he knew like the flavor of the Philly water was not going to be doing any benefits. There's also been some research done which is a little bit above my pay grade about like the mineral composition like the hardness the softness of water how they influence how coffee brews and then ultimately tastes. But generally you don't want something too hard you don't want it with much flavor to it, which when you drink water out of the Philly taps it has a flavor. **RT:** Sure. You want the coffee to shine. **BRIAN:** Yeah. If you if you're really focused on the coffee flavor Yeah. You don't want these other flavors coming in on that. And one thing that does surprise people was just how much of a cup of coffee is water. With typical US like coffee to water ratios. And when people are making recipes to brew coffee, coffee in your final cup is at least 98% water, if not like 98.4 or more water, like up to 99% water. So if the water has a flavor, it's going to be impacting the flavor of the coffee. \[Music\] ## 48:00 Judging Coffee Drinks: Balance **RT:** So, let's talk a little bit about your evaluation like when you were a barista competitor or when you're not in a competitive sense, but in an education sense, when you're training people making coffee drinks, what are what are some of those areas where you're you're giving people notes or judging these things? **BRIAN:** Yeah, I spent a lot of time talking about balance. And when we talk about balance in coffee, we have to remember that like wine, coffee comes from a fruit. There's going to be some level of acidity, especially with the coffees that tend to score higher and like be more prized in the specialty coffee industry. So every coffee I'm working with has some level of acidity. And acidity is awesome. It can be delicious. It can add some vibrancy to the coffee. But too much is pretty off-putting even to some of us who like acidity. So we don't want our our coffee to taste sour. Although when I was a new barista, like I was so excited by that, like it was so different from the coffee I was used to. But coffee also of course has— **RT:** We kind of went all in like like a super hoppy IPA? Like "All right, more of that interesting flavor. Let's turn up the dial!" **BRIAN:** And kind how in the beer industry there's been a bit of a backlash against the super hoppy. Like there's also been at least in what I see of the coffee industry a backlash maybe not a backlash but like a moving away from just, having like, high acidity coffees and maybe saying you know what sweetness is pretty good, sweetness is pretty important. And when you brew a coffee like a good coffee and you brew it right there often is this sort of sweetness that comes out that kind of balances the acidity makes it more like bright rather than sour. **BRIAN:** And then of course coffee is going to have some bitterness because coffee has you know it's roasted there's various compounds in there that add this sort of bitter quality to the coffee like you know roasted nuts and dark chocolate kind of flavors or if it's extreme like maybe tastes like having an aspirin on your tongue for too long. In fact, if you taste caffeine in its isolated form, it's like straight up bitterness. It's just like that sort of pill in the back of your tongue. **RT:** It's not just the roasting. It's the caffeine that tastes bitter. **BRIAN:** Yeah. It's it's a combination. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Coffees like Robusta that have more caffeine, that might be part of why they have a higher perceived bitterness, at least in part. So when we think about balance, we're trying to think about those things in in harmony like sweetness, acidity, and bitterness. So I talk about that a lot. Then having it at a good concentration like you using the right amount of coffee to water and then just hoping that the aromatics in the ground coffee come through that you've extracted them kind of like let them come through in a way that flatters the coffee. ## 50:00 Improving Your Coffee Making Technique **RT:** So how does your technique when you're making a pressurized drink come into achieving that balance? Why do you need to, besides picking the blend and making sure the machine is well calibrated, which I feel like coffee people talk about a lot too. Just being around Italians are like the espresso machine needs serviced regularly, these kinds of you know things. But why do you need to go around training individual baristas all day and and spitting their you know the 100 coffees you taste into into your little cup? What what are you what are you helping them with? **BRIAN:** Cool. Yeah. So just general consistency of technique is important. Like making sure we're using the right amount of coffee because the little metal basket that holds the ground coffee that we use to brew espresso, we call it a portafilter basket. Making sure you're using the right amount of coffee that it's designed to hold, that's important. So getting the right dose, is what we call that. Then redistributing that coffee around the basket so that it has a uniform, like it's uniform in density. And then when we compress that coffee before brewing it, we call that tamping the coffee. **BRIAN:** We want to make sure that we're going straight down, not not going askew, because we want again that pressurized hot water needs to go through the coffee pretty evenly. And if you go at an angle that might be leading to some variance and like how different parts of the coffee bed there are getting extracted. You talk about uneven extraction. **BRIAN:** That was one of those things too like early on in my coffee industry experience I was suspicious of and then after tasting enough shots that were like brewed poorly like and they tasted bad like oh wait this idea of even extraction is also important like making sure that all the coffee particles are getting the same exposure to water so that they you know give up their flavors in a in a predictable way. So just that sort of technique is important. And then the most important thing I would say is being able to calibrate the grind size. **BRIAN:** That's a thing that surprises a lot of people and it surprised me when I was new to this to this world and is a big part of the puzzle is that when you brew an espresso, you have to think about how much coffee you used to brew it or at least in my my style of brewing espresso, my, the world I'm in. So you think about the amount of coffee grams that you've used to brew it, the dose, how much final beverage you have produced, what we call the yield, which relates to how much water you used to brew it. **BRIAN:** And then and we measure that in grams. And then we measure the time. So how many seconds was it brewing for? Again thinking about those flavors that extract at different times throughout the brewing process. Acidity kind of comes out mostly in the early stages and then we get more bitterness the longer the coffee and the water in contact for. So finding this little happy middle ground between like too sour and too bitter. A lot of that comes down to how much time it brews for when especially when you're brewing espresso. **BRIAN:** And it can be a make or break like a couple seconds can make a huge difference when you're brewing espresso, especially when you're using kind of lighter roasted like interesting coffees or medium roasted coffees even. So, you brew an espresso, make sure you're getting the right amount of water out for the amount of coffee grounds you're using, and then checking the time, noticing the flavors, and then if it, if the flow rate was too high, that mean it brewed too fast, it probably happened in a short amount of time, you want to extend the time that it brews for. **BRIAN:** And the biggest way to control that as a barista is making the grind size finer. So you you'll want to have a grinder that can adjust grind size. Like usually a burr grinder is how we do that. So if you make it a little finer, creates a little more resistance to the pressurized hot water coming from above. And then you brew the espresso again with the same amount of coffee but slightly finer grind size, it'll take a little longer to produce the same yield. **BRIAN:** So being in tune with that, paying attention to that as a barista is going to have a big impact on the flavor of the drinks you're making. As long as you're being consistent with all of those other factors like getting the right dose, tamping it evenly, um, **RT:** and the amount of time that you... **BRIAN:** Temperature of your machine, that kind of stuff. ## 54:47 One Tip for Upping Your Home Coffee Game **RT:** Oh gosh, that's so interesting. So, what if a person is having a an espresso at home and is maybe not going to get quite as deeply into all of these things? And they could and they could talk to their family every day about about the things they're learning, if they are a curious person who wants to dive into that puzzle like you did. But, you know, maybe if there's like one piece of advice for your your home espresso machine people to achieve better results, what what would you what would you wind up telling most people do you think at home? **BRIAN:** Yeah, this might not be a surprise, but get a scale. A kitchen scale is good just to try to see if you can be consistent with how much ground coffee you're using to brew it. And then you can check the final beverage weight, like just to see how much, you know, kind of have an idea of how much water was used to brew the espresso. Check in on your coffee to water ratio to try to keep that consistent because you'll find if you use like less coffee sometimes more coffee another another time that'll impact like how easily the water can flow through which affects how long it takes for that espresso to brew which has a big impact on flavor. **RT:** So a little trial and error to see what you like right to see what works for you? **BRIAN:** That's important. Yeah. Like being okay brewing a bad shot because when you go up to a machine like the first shot you brew is probably not going to be good. you have to evaluate it and then make a change. And if you if you keep the coffee and water amounts consistent, it's a little easier to figure out what other things might be going wrong. **RT:** Well, a lot of a lot of the things with this wine and language beverage and language project that I like to bring in is how we learn from making mistakes. So, you can't be you can't be too ashamed or you won't be able to move forward. So, a little trial and error is what— trial and error is a nice way of saying making mistakes. **BRIAN:** That's right. That's one reason I love being a barista trainer is because even if I make a mistake, it can be a good opportunity for my trainees to understand like, oh, I did this thing and this was this was the result. Like I added the foam like to the milk too late, you know, and now we have a bubbly milk instead of that creamy like microfoam that we're going for. **RT:** Oh, we didn't even get milk! We're going to have to have you back on the show, Brian. It was really nice talking with you. **BRIAN:** It was a pleasure. **RT:** Yeah. No, so if I want to come back to— well, okay, maybe two more things. **BRIAN:** Oh, yeah. ## 56:45 Why This Coffee Pro Does Not Prefer Italian Coffee **RT:** One is, just quickly, you started at the top of the show saying, "Well, I got into coffee in Italy, but that's not what I drink anymore." What did you—as an as a as a big fan of Italy, what were you talking about? What did you mean? **BRIAN:** True. Yeah. So, when I you know, back in 2007 when I was drinking espressos in Italy—this is complicated and maybe again like I need to go back to Italy and re-evaluate my preconceived notions. But when I think about Italian espresso now, a lot of it is on the more bitter side of what I prefer. Like on the darker roasted side than what I'm accustomed to drinking now and would definitely need some sugar. **RT:** Sure. **BRIAN:** And an Italian espresso with a little sugar in it. Freaking delicious. But what I like to drink now is like has a little more of its own inherent sweetness because of the coffee and then the way we brew it. It also has a little more acidity than they would be happy with in Italy. So if an Italian were to drink my espresso, they might be like, "This is not espresso." Like this is some other thing. Uh which is fine. They're allowed to think that. But yeah, I think like now I just want a little more brightness and a little more sweetness in the coffee. **RT:** So your taste has just changed a little bit. Yeah. But the the magic of it was something you were originally kind of introduced to both at the coffee shop in in Philly, but also in in Italy. **BRIAN:** Just like that culture like you just go to the bar, you just stand there, you drink the espresso, and then you say thank you. ## 57:52 Music and Culinary Appreciation **RT:** Oh, yeah, and I also glossed over you being a musician which I— you know, I didn't—I'm a musician myself, as listeners of this project might know, and but I didn't think, that that was something I would be focusing on, but musicians just keep coming to me ,and the culture of music keeps being part of this cultural conversation. So what were you studying in music school? **BRIAN:** Yeah, I got a degree in music, BA in music which in my program was was something called musicology like thinking about **RT:** Oh lovely. **BRIAN:** The theory, like evaluating chord progressions and voice leading and all that stuff, and then of course the history, which, in my my program was focused on what some people might call European art music. Like what other people might call classical music. Thinking about like you know Renaissance music through the Bach and his impact into like everything else that happened after 1750\. But then maybe up to like you know the mid- 20th century for a lot of—although there were some classes that were offered about more contemporary like "art music" in quotes. **BRIAN:** But I just love like kind of in a similar way that drew me to wine and coffee just like this sort of visceral pleasure this like deep sense of like this is amazing like this is something very special like when when I would listen to certain pieces of music and be moved to having shivers. **BRIAN:** I just wanted to understand that better and be able to analyze like that sort of sense of analysis of like being able to look at a score of music and like figure out its structure on a big scale and then also on like a micro scale like note to note that was something that has fascinated me. **RT:** So you you feel that some of those um, analytical mind that you brought to the the music study that you are are applying it to this new thing that fascinates you different drinks. You think you find some connections between your your music studies and your your beverage life? **BRIAN:** Yeah. Analyzing something but in a way that still doesn't remove from the the inherent pleasure of the thing like still like be like this wine is delicious. It doesn't matter if I know why it's delicious, but it's also cool or like even more neat if I can understand some of the choices and like the the inherent qualities like the to that make that wine so delicious. ## 59:45 Increasing Knowledge to Increase Enjoyment **RT:** I would say that for me is the purpose of increasing wine knowledge is not to use as some kind of a flex but to increase pleasure. Because if you understand everything that went into this result in the glass, I think can definitely increase your appreciation. **BRIAN:** That's right. **RT:** Beyond just the sheer delicious taste, which, you know, let's get real, is number one. **BRIAN:** Yeah. Like none none of this matters unless we can share it with other people. I have special bottles of wine like I'm saving for the right moment with someone else. It's awesome if I can drink a wine and think it's delicious but I enjoy the wine even more if I can share with someone who maybe isn't in the wine industry or like you know maybe is but will I know will like this wine too. And then you know pieces of music like they're not written just for one person like it's about like being in a place together and experiencing this time in a in a a certain way, in a way that can kind of transform your experience of that time. **RT:** Oh, that's lovely. I totally agree. I just want to be in a room now like listening to some great music. Little coffee in one hand, little wine. Yeah, you know, we can do that in Italy. We can do that in Philadelphia. We can do that in New York where wherever we are to bring together with our our our beverages and our our other the cultural story of all of these things. **RT:** I really liked the way that you were talking about, you know, how you found the balance that you needed for, you know, the chemical compounds that you're consuming here with the, just as a as a beverage professional, you know, whether you're working in wine or with coffee. How you came to doing what you needed to do in order to umspend maybe so much more time with with these drinks than than maybe a regular person would in the course of their day. **BRIAN:** Yeah. Um, as a coffee professional, it took me much longer than it should have to figure out why I felt so bad so much of my time, and realizing that the way that my body metabolized caffeine might be different than some of my co-workers who could drink more coffee than me. For me, like if you are already addicted to caffeine, be aware of how much you're consuming. And for me, a big thing that helped was trying to keep that level consistent. Like, as I mentioned earlier, that's right. Yeah. Like the same amount of tea every day. **BRIAN:** But why I might have felt bad early on in my career like was some days I was having a lot of coffee and some days I would be having hardly any and then realizing I felt bad both days and not realizing like, oh it's because I'm fluctuating so much. If you're not addicted to caffeine yet, find ways to try to avoid that. I have a friend who is a barista who always picked one day of the week to not drink coffee just to make sure that her body wasn't so used to it. I think she's now addicted, but, to caffeine. **BRIAN:** But I feel like also like caffeine addiction is, you know, it's as far as drugs go. It's manageable and socially acceptable, but it's also like takes up so much of my time and my energy like trying to make sure I hit the right amounts and like feel okay. **RT:** Yeah. I like what you're saying about seeing what other people are doing and and wondering why you can't do the same. And I think there can be this machismo in a way, you know, like like this toughness or what you can take, which you know, I mean, there's just no reason to to put yourself, you know, your body, your health, your safety at risk, whatever drink you're drinking to just try to match what somebody else is doing. Like all of our bodies are different. And to just kind of listen to that and respond to your own needs without looking, you know— I mean, maybe those other people, you know, are fine and, you know, or maybe they feel terrible, too. and you know, they're just, you know, waiting to to calibrate like listen to your body. Pay attention to what you're doing. **BRIAN:** And yeah, if you want to taste something, like don't be shy to spit it out. Like maybe if you're in a cafe, try to be discreet into a little paper cup and like hide it a little bit. But I feel like being curious to taste things but then not overdoing it just out of the curiosity or the excitement for it **RT:** Or what you think the social expectation is for how much you should be drinking compared to what somebody else is doing or like this you know kind of um. that scene in Indiana Jones or something like that. You don't have to, it's not a contest. So, thank you so much, Brian, again, and to all of our listeners, thank you so much for listening and for for being fans of the show and being supporters of the show. And I just want to say, as I like to say, wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and never stop learning. **BRIAN:** Rose Thomas, it's been a pleasure. **RT:** Oh, you're welcome. Thank you. \[Outro\] Support us on Patreon. Grab the newsletter at mododibere.com and subscribe to the YouTube channel @mododibere to watch the travel show Modo di Bere TV. Music for the show was composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou. Purchase their music at the link in the notes. \[NOTE: **We are no longer using Patreon!** Become a member [right here](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e14-tazzelenghe-the-tongue-cutter/#/portal/) to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\] Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Video by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ The Sober Sommelier ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e8-abe-zarate-sober-sommelier/) [ How to Spot Wine Flaws ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e6-dr-rachel-b-allison-wine-faults-and-flaws/) ### ▷S3E6 Wine Faults and Flaws with Dr. Rachel B. Allison (Part 2) URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e6-dr-rachel-b-allison-wine-faults-and-flaws/ Last updated: 2026-08-27T00:14:27.000Z When the waiter pours a taste of wine for you and it's your job to inspect that wine for flaws, while the sommelier and your fellow dinner guests look on, this episode is your guide to how to taste that wine with confidence. Wine flavor scientist Dr. Rachel B. Allison and Rose Thomas go over the different smells and tastes that answer the question "How do you know if a wine has gone off?" once and for all. Even better, Dr. Allison tells us exactly how those rotten egg and wet cardboard smells (to name a few) got into the wine in the first place. (What is "barnyard" in a wine, anyway?) If you enjoyed the first part of RT's interview with Dr. Allison in S3E5, you'll surely enjoy another deep dive into the science of wine. Let the technical information empower you as a diner, wherever you are in your journey in wine. You'll never unlearn one funny fact about baby carrots. Dr. Rachel B. Allison, a wine flavor scientist, educator, and competitive blind tasting champion who grew up bilingual in Canada. Dr. Allison has a Ph.D. in wine flavor chemistry from Cornell University, and an Undergraduate degree in Engineering Chemistry from Queen’s University. Her paper with Austin Montgomery on hydrogen sulfide formation in canned wines was selected as the Best Enology Paper of 2023 by the American Society for Enology and Viticulture. Alongside many previous accolades, Dr. Allison was just named one of Wine Enthusiast Magazine's Future Forty in 2024. Learn more about Dr. Allison's work at [www.rachelballison.com](http://www.rachelballison.com/?ref=mododibere.com). **Auto-generated transcript.** (Please excuse errors.) View Transcript there are things we don't control in wine that can produce exceptional wines like I feel like the great um the great wines like things that you're just like oh I was so overwhelmed by this one like this was so amazing there was something on it there's something unexpected there's noble rods things that we didn't plan yeah things that we're not exactly planning for but you could also get burned by that yeah that is one of the risks with things like Brett So when people say barnyard, do they mean poo? Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. You're listening to Part 2, my interview with Dr. Rachel B. Allison, a wine flavor scientist and blind tasting champion who was recently honored as one of 2024's future 40 tastemakers by Wine Enthusiast magazine. You can listen to Part 1 of my conversation with Dr. Allison, which was all about blind tasting on season three, episode five of this podcast. This episode is all about that moment at the restaurant when the waiter pours you a taste of wine and you're supposed to check it for, well, what are you supposed to check it for exactly? We describe the various wine faults and flaws one by one with Dr. Rachel B. Allison, explaining not just what you taste and smell when a wine is faulty, but the science behind how it got that way. So you never have to feel weird about sending a wine back at a restaurant again. If you found this interesting or useful, I hope you'll take a moment to visit patreon.com/mododibere and become a supporter of the show so that we can keep producing it. I really want to talk to you about wine faults. I feel that this part of the wine service ritual when the waiter or the It comes in poor as a taste of the wine for the host or the person who orders the wine. That's not the moment where you decide, "Oh, I like this," or not. It's where you're supposed to be testing the wine for faults before you accept it to be poured for everyone. I know that a lot of people, my early wine drinker self -included, found that moment like really intimidating. I know that a lot of your research and work has been around wine faults, and I'm wondering if you could just explained to us some of the different wine faults that you would be tasting in that moment in the restaurant and how they occur. Yeah, so there's, I mean, a couple of key ones, you're looking for reduction, oxidation, paternal myces, volatile acidity, what else? I'd be checking if it's heat damage, so cooked, quarktane. And now you do see like mousey -ness, you can you can find that. I feel like I don't see it in too many conventionally made wines, but it can happen. So reduction. So let's talk about quarktane. What is quarktain? What are you smelling in the glass and what's the proper response when it's detected for a diner? The quarktain is like, I mean, I hear a lot of, a lot of words, I guess describing it, but it's like the, I mean, it's like wet cardboard moldy, moldy and wet cardboard basement, kind of a wet basement kind of smell. Quarktain, the compound is TCA and you see it also as a contaminant in baby carrots. - I totally smelled stinky baby carrots. - Yeah. - Okay, that's a good one. - So it's like a good, like it's a way to find it if you don't want to just keep opening wines until you find it. Like honestly, just every time you go to supermarket just kind of go buy the baby carrots. Like you'll eventually, you'll eventually get it. - Great. It is to me like wet paper. - Yeah. - Or somebody would say like a wet dog kind of, you know, basement musty. - I feel like for me, the wet dog part of it is very wine context. Like it needs the wine context versus like the compound in isolation is much more like cardboard, paper, paper. - Yeah, yeah, like if you're walking around the city on recycling day after the rain and like that smell everywhere. - Yeah, so like when you have, it's like a, oh my gosh, I don't remember the microgrindism, but it's like a bacterial contamination that will chlorinate anisol. So like you need a source of chlorine and you need the bacterial contamination. And so that's why you often don't see chlorine -based cleaners in wineries. Oh, okay, because it does something. You don't want any source of chlorine. You don't want an extra chlorine around, so you, 'cause you need trichloroenosol has chlorines on it, so you need to get rid of chlorines. You can also try bromoenosol, which smells similar. So you can have TCA or TBA, both of them are bad. - So what is TCA and how does it get there? - Enosol is like in the same family of compounds of, no, that doesn't make it easier, what I was gonna say. - Thank you. - But enosol is like, I feel like that's a compound that would be like present in wine. Wine is whatever a thousand compounds. It's just a compound, not particularly relevant. But if you chlorinate it, you add chlorines to it, which is what this microorganism can do. It adds chlorines to it. Then it smells like the wet paper, wet basement smell. So you need the bacterial contamination, which is usually found in the cork. Okay. And you need a source of chlorine to produce TCA, which is cork -tained. - Okay, so it's deriving from a bacteria that's causing a reaction in the wine that makes it smell like white paper. - Yes, and that bacteria can be in the cork, sometimes it can be in barrels, but it's mainly a cork thing. - I mean, people work a lot with the corks to try to get corks that aren't gonna have it and stuff like that, so it's like one aspect of wine science and packaging. - Yeah. - So, but once it's happened to wine. It's it's there pretty much that it doesn't really blow off. Yeah. You can try to scalp it out. So like it's pretty hydrophobic. So it'll bind to plastic. So like you see sometimes people poke saran wrap into wine and it'll that's too much work. It'll absorb onto saran wrap. That's good to know that that's a good trick. I've done it before. It does work, but like Saran Wrap will also scalp other compounds. It's just like if you really want to drink that wine and you really can't handle the cortaine, you can probably pull a lot of it from. And it's not, but it's not all plastic wraps. It's only certain polymers that seem to do that. I don't know which chemistries are which brands of pasta. This sounds like a good YouTube video, I have to say. Good science YouTube Yeah. Swirling around some saran wrap and then everybody else try it, oh my god. Yeah, we all did it. I remember we definitely did it. We opened a friend of mine, her, aunt and uncle used to own a restaurant in the city that like in like the 90s and I think they closed it after a while and there was a cellar, they had stored somewhere and I don't know if it was like a good thing or a bad thing but like or why this happened but the temperature control got turned off that apartment so all the wines were just like we don't know what this is so her aunt gave her a bunch of them because she was studying wine with us and they're like yeah you can try them with your friends and we opened this wine it was a 1975 Chateau Margot it was a mess it was the most faulty wine I've ever had in my life and we were all so sad like we're all there like poking saran wrap into it, trying to clean it up a little bit. It was so like, we were all so upset because it was like, why are we ever going to try this? Or grad students? Like, we did have some like, there were, you know, I think seven, eight bottles and the rest of them were all clean. But this one, we were just like, what a, it had, it was definitely had cork taint. It had pretty bad breath too. Obviously, like it was oxidized, but it was also like old, so we were expecting the oxidation. It even tasted like it had some like reductive compounds, like not reduced in like the fresh way, reduced in like the something reached the end of the line here and it's got a weird stink to it. - Oh, how's that? - It was just such a mess of a while. - So one can have more than one fault too, just to make it a little more fun. - Yes, it can, we can have multiple faults for sure. Okay, so we talked about quarktane if your wine smells like wet paper be like I think this is quarkt I'm not I don't I would like a new you don't open another bottle for me, please And the other thing quarkt does is it kind of it's not just that it adds that I mean adds I mean you maybe I'm using the wrong word here, but it Creates this wet paper smell, but it also kind of destroys the fruit like the wine's just not what it should be I think it's like it again like Like the hydrogen sulfide, it interferes with your ability to smell other things. Because you do acclimate to the cork -taint, but it's still, so you don't notice it as like distinctly as cork -taint, but you're still not smelling other things. It's distracting. - That's so fascinating. So what about some of those other faults you were talking about in that tragic bottle? Britannomyces? - So Britannomyces is contaminant, it's another micro microbial contaminant and it produces like what's called, I feel like it's like sweaty, horsey, sweaty horse, sweaty saddle kind of smells, barnyard, barnyard is common. You will sometimes see wines with a little bit of grit that are like okay, like it kind of fits the profile and it's well -integrated, but I don't think you can do it on purpose. I think it's like, you can get lucky if you could have a Brett contamination and get lucky, and it still works, but usually it's distinctly bad. -Not desirable. -It's where the people think it's desirable. I mean, I feel like the big example, the stark example, is Kevinny Franck, and it kind of got grandfathered in as local charm. - Yeah. - Would you consider that to be about the right way to think about– - I think I'd say it's like a certain like, you're like, "Oh, it's a rustic wine. It's like a country wine." And it's like, "I think it just tastes like bread." And I think, I personally feel like it distracts from, like, I think it distracts from the terroir. Like some, I think there's sometimes a claim that it is the terroir, but I've always felt like it distracts from everything else that's happening, like you're so you're terroir, you're terroir enemy Britannomyces, like that's fine, but like it's not unique. You can grow that anywhere. Britannomyces will thrive in a lot of places. It doesn't make you unique. I feel like you're doing a lot of work on other things that are not being shown here at all. Britannomyces is not what you're working on. So where does that fault come in in the winemaking process? Is it old barrels? Is it dirty barrels? - Often it's dirty barrels. - Yeah, and barrels are expensive, right? - I feel like if you have a break in termination in the barrel, it's like, you gotta get a new, it's very hard to clean out 'cause it can go quite deep. - It's bacteria, is it fungus? - I think it's yeast. - Yeast. - Oh, it's a yeast problem. - I think progenomyces is yeast. - Oh, it sounds like a yeast word. This is my level of science. That the myces, I've seen that in other yeast words. - Yeah, like Saccharomyces. - Yes, yeah. - Saccharomyces, yeah. - An undesired yeast. - Yeah, I can go quite deep into the barrels, like into the woods, so it's like very hard to get rid of once you have it. And I went to a symposium about paternal myses, and I mean, the takeaway for me was that like, the only, like the most acceptable straight, like they're different strains of Brett. The most acceptable strains were the ones that were the least Brett like. So the takeaway is don't get Brett. Like that's, again, you might get lucky in the way that there are things we don't control in wine that can produce exceptional wines. Like I feel like the great, the great wines, like things that you're just like, Oh, I was so overwhelmed by this one. Like this was so amazing. There was something on it. There's something unexpected. There's noble rights. Things that we didn't plan. Yeah. Things that we're not exactly planning for. But you can also get burned by that. Yeah. That is one of the risks with things like Brett. So when people say barnyard, do they mean poo? I think it's a combination of like animal and and I to me manure as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's kind of like a weird sort of - Sometimes like a, almost like a smoky smell as well. - But like not in a nice way. - Not in like a good way, but like a bit smoky. - Okay. So I mentioned noble rot. So would you consider that to be like a mistake that turned into something great? I mean, maybe we could briefly explain that before talking about some of the other. - I mean, like noble rot is just like, it's a lucky manifestation of gray rot. So, gray rot is like actual fungus that will ruin the grapes, but gray rot is like where it only sets in a little bit. And so, it does produce something really special, but that's pretty like, again, that is deliberately curated. And in like the perfect climate conditions of humidity and on certain grapes and in certain places. So, we're talking about - But it does, I mean, it doesn't, it's not considered a fault because it's at the grapes, it's not a wine fault, it's a grape disease. - Oh, interesting. Oh, okay, okay, that's a cool distinction. I like it though, it turns out to be something that, I feel like there's so many stories that I hear in wine history that it's like, oh, we had to go fight a battle. And when we came back, all the grapes were moldy. So we cried, but we made the wine anyway. And then we discovered Saterin, or something. I don't know I'm making this up, but I have heard you know pieces of that So yeah, well we had this we had this extra stuff So we just mixed it together and it turned out pretty good. So we kept mixing them Yeah, that's our blood, right? Yeah, definitely. Oh, that's fun. So, okay So noble rots not is a great disease not a wine fault or not a wine making issue Yeah, I mean like obviously Obviously the whole process is wine making, but like it's not considered a wine fault because it's great. (gentle music) So let's talk about mouse. What's the difference between bret and mouse? What are you smelling in your glass or tasting? For me, mouseiness is like, ooh, what do you call it, like hamster cage? Oh, like stale corn chips? And again, like, are stale corn chips the most offensive smell ever? No. But they shouldn't be in wine. And that's a mistake. It shouldn't be there. And it's distracting from all the other things that I am paying for in a luxury product. Right. So it's not that like, oh, that's the worst thing I've ever smelt like a Barnyard is not the worst thing I've ever smelled. - Right. - It's just, I didn't order a glass of barnyard. I didn't order a glass of hamster cage. - How does it get there, mouse? - That's also a microbial contaminant. I wanna say this one's bacteria. It's a bacterial contaminant. Sometimes mouseiness can also be difficult to detect on the nose and you get it more retro -nasally. I think you need the pH shift releases more of it. - So maybe you're drinking it for a second and you're like, and everybody's like, is this kind of mousy to you? - That's a tough one. - And all then the non -mine people are like, what are they talking about? - So that's one of the ones where like, when they pour the wine for you and you smell it and you're like, it's good, that's when you'd want to taste it to make sure it's not mousy. Although like, again, in conventional wine making, you don't see a lot of it. It tends to be more when you get into more like natural, but like just, yeah. - What did natural winemakers stop doing that led to wines, seeing more mousy wines? - Well, it's a microbial contamination. So you are letting any micro grow. And that's what natural winemaking is. You're not controlling the microbial environment. - I see. So there's more risk for some of those to happen. - So conventional winemaking you are doing more to control the microbial environment. So, you may inoculate or you may use SO2 to kill off whatever random stuff comes in so that only the things that you want to flourish flourish. Because otherwise, you end up with anything that is just in the natural microbiota which could be fairly isolated or could have influences from surrounding properties from people through the video. Like there could be a lot of other influences on that. And like when you have fermentation like that, you have a lot of things competing for resources and saccharomyces. Saccharomyces or resi tends to dominate, but it takes a while for its population to build. And so you have other things competing for resources with it. And so it takes even longer to build. And you have all this period where those yeast and bacteria will compete for resources and produce other stuff. And often that stuff is not the stuff we want. You tend to get a lot of like acetobactors. You start to get like volatile acidity. You start to get like the really vinegary smelling things. You can get things like Brett, Brett will compete. Um, I think particularly, oh, don't quote me on that one, but like particularly, I feel like early Brett might be pretty competitive. As far as like, I'm the strongest in the, in the group, I feel like Brett is pretty competitive, just in general. But like, yeah, so you have other things that will compete for resources. And also like, if other things flourish, saccharomyces won't, won't grow like in like in a good way, like in a good consistent way. And then you have stuck fermentations, you have saugage fermentations, you have difficult fermentations. And difficult fermentations means that you tend to produce offerings from saccharomyces as well. - Yeah, you know, I love this because I feel like some of the most incredible natural windmickers that I've had like the privilege of hanging out with are like the biggest scientists. So this weird thing where you're like, oh, I'm going back to some of these old things and trying to rediscover some of these traditional farm techniques, like, okay, here we are with horses, but then you talk to them and, you know, you, you know, like the knowledge of like, my favorite wines are natural wines. It's just the first thing they're telling you is not that they're a natural wine. They're telling you about their good wine. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a standard that we should have no matter. And I'm very fine with that. Like, I, I'm very on board with the idea that like, sure, intervene as little as, like, why would you want to, we don't want to over -engineer, we don't need to over -engineer this. Um, but on the other end, I, I guess I feel like there's just a lot of natural gets, I think sometimes misused to excuse actually poor winemaking. And it's fine, like you took a risk, you tried something new, but like, this didn't work and we shouldn't be passing it off to people as a thing that's not faulty when it is faulty like yeah I definitely had that I've definitely had that experience usually not with an actual winemaker no but more like in the business you know but yeah so talking about some of the and I think I think that the term natural tends to automatically get humans to assume that everything that's not being labeled this way is there for unnatural and sort of clean wine. - Yeah, clean and unclean and unclean, and I think it's a little moral for me when I don't think something like filtration is inherently moral or immoral. Either there might be some– - Importance is that it can be traditional reasons why you would do or not do it that are fascinating to me but I don't need like to it to be like a sin now but it's like I don't know I mean yeah we've we've seen vineyards grapes don't grow like that that's not natural we're working with the environment but like that's not natural it's weird to suddenly draw the line at the cell would be like oh but but now we're not doing any we already intervened we're just gonna do our best to one like be and be regenerative and mindful and sustainable, but we are already intervening. There's, yeah, we're already doing that. - Yeah, I will tell you what's really clean is an incredible natural winemaker's winery. Like the amount of pristine cleanliness for any good winery, for sure. I mean, it would just say that whatever, however people are Labeling, marketing, thinking of themselves philosophically, obviously as we're talking about all of these bacteria and stuff, the cleanliness is really important as well as the temperature conditions and all of this stuff from the entire chain with shipping and this is something that I learned a lot about as I was selling wine and learning storing wine, aging wine, all of these factors. So I think there's a couple we didn't really talk about yet in faults, which would be– - Volatile acidity, who's one of them? - Oh yeah, we didn't talk about VA. We didn't also really explain oxidation or heat. - Oh, yeah, so VA is, I mean, it's vinegar -iness, but also like ethyl acetate. So you get kind of like a nail move or kind of smell like acetone derivatives. I feel like that one's kind of self -explanatory. If it smells like that, it's usually pretty obvious. Although there are a few styles that are higher in VA, just from the way that they're made. So you have to kind of know that that's what you're getting into with that style when you order it. And like, Soeterna is one of those styles that tends to be high in VA. - Interesting, interesting. - So it's sort of contextually made enough to be a fault. - Yeah, it's the same thing with like reduction. Like some wines are just more reductive than other. Like souvenir and blonds usually made in quite a reductive style. 'Cause that will help emphasize the varietal files. - Interesting. - Like sulfur compounds or sulfur compounds, they're gonna be more stable, more favorable in a more reductive environment. - I love this term varietal files. It reminds me of my card catalog example, right? Like, ooh, TDN, ooh, pirazines. - Just going going down the little decision tree of like varietathiles. Here are the tiles. - What is varietal files? - Well, I'm thinking of like a decision tree of like, okay, we're in sulfur compounds. Now, do I want varietal files or do I want like volatile sulfur compounds? - Or like I'm watching this beautiful taxonomic tree just grow in your brain. But where does this term varietal files? - Varietal file, it's a, we use it to talk about file compounds that are characteristic of certain great varieties. So varietal as an adjective, I guess, so a thyle that is varietal would be like the styles of a Sauvignon Blanc. And although a lot of those varietal thiles you also get in other grapes, you get them in Riesling and you get them in some reds as well. It's they can impart like grape for a mage be There's grapefruit, there's four MMP, I think that's like passion fruit. There's where you get into like the gooseberry, cat pee kind of aroma gets in is one of the varietal files. Would this be short for like profile or cognate with profile maybe? The word varietal though, or what do you mean? Is it and is it file like Fi le? Oh file Okay, I take back my Take back my card for idle file. Hi. Oh, what a lovely word. Thank you. I Was hearing varietal file. Oh, I was thinking about I was hearing file that I was thinking about like a wrap sheet Like, like, this isn't– - Although that probably does exist, also. - Okay, if I'll be different teaching me a new word. - So, volatile acidity, this nail polish, or nail polish remover? - Nail polish remover, 'cause a remover is acetone and you want like acetic acid and acetate derivative. - You want– - Or rather, those are what you get, you get. So, acetone is like the ketone version of it and then acetic acid is the acid of that and then acetate is the ester. So when you're an ester being like just another volatile compound in this case. Esters like kind of a technical smell? Ester, honestly ester is just a form of compound. It's just a class of compounds like it just has a specific chemical activity. It has a specific chemical group on it. The way we use the word ester in chemistry is not how we typically use, I guess, the word ester in wine. - I know, I hear it in wine. - 'Cause we're talking about it in wine. - Wine is a flavor. - When people say esters, they usually mean fruity, floral compounds that you smell with them. But esters are just a category of compound that have a C -O -O -R group on them. That's what that is. - That's so good to know. I'm gonna go correct everybody. No, not really. - It's just like, they just have that chemical activity. That's where the duster is. And it's related to other compounds by like that group. - So when I'm like at the restaurant, I'm like, oh, this smells like nail polish remover. How did that get there? - So typically volatile acidity, you're gonna have like Acetobacter is going to produce like excessive acetic acid and then that's going to react with other stuff to produce your acetate esters and then your, oh my god, yeah, acetate esters and, I don't know, I guess you might have a little acetone but not really much. Acetone's not super stable there, I don't think. I guess I mean, what happened in the wine making process? - Bacterial contamination. - Bacterial, again. - Acetobacter, sorry. Acetobacter is bacteria. - Acetobacter is bacteria. - Yeah. - Okay. - Acetobacter is bacteria. - So something that– - Usually you have a bacterial contamination that produce a lot of acetic acid. - I feel, okay, so we've kind of got some different classes of faults here. - There's microbial ones, there's chemical ones. So oxidation, reduction tend to be chemical ones. The rest are pretty much microbial. - Oh, except for maybe heat. - Except for heat, yeah. - Okay, so let's talk about oxidation and then let's talk about heat. So we talked about reduction a lot. Is oxidation the opposite? - Yeah, so chemical state opposites, so you have too much oxygen in the winemaking. You're going to end up with a lot of nutty aromas, sherry -like. So there are, again, this can be stylistic. There are wines where this is, that's what it's supposed to be. So you have to know that about the wine you're ordering. So that can make it hard to know whether you're sending something back. Although I, there are some wines where like, they shouldn't be oxidized. Right. So sometimes when I explain oxidation to people, it's like, okay, your kid wouldn't eat the apple slices in their lunch because they turned brown. Am I – Yeah. That's the same – I mean, it's the same process, same concept that, like, you would have colors that, like, white wines would turn brown. You would get some browning in the color, but it's – the aromas would also – it would be more bruised apple, it would be more sherry like more nutty, I don't know, sometimes I get kind of a cardboard -y smell to it, but like... What about in red? Uh, I mean, I still find I get the nutty cardboard -y smell, um, although... Is it a dry cardboard? I get like wet... Yeah, dry. Okay. Um, but I also get like the dried fruit, like the fruit gets more in that space, but it so it tends to not have as much aroma 'cause a lot of that is, it's opened up too much. - Yeah, I guess like oxygen does eventually react with, reacts with some compounds that then react with aroma compounds. It tends not to be like a direct oxygen to aroma compound situation. - So as far as dried fruits, I mean, some of this happens naturally, right, with the aging process and is desirable. You're like, oh, I'm noticing that the fruit's becoming more dried fruit. But then– This is usually a case of you've wiped everything. You haven't added a little complexity. You've wiped everything out. We've waited. So I'm thinking of some of the examples that you might, again, at the restaurant, be like, you've ordered a wine that's too old. And you say, OK, past peak could mean over -oxidation, and among other things or this crisp white riesling should not be brown and smell like bruised apples, it's oxidized. Yeah and I've had that. I did have that happen once at a restaurant where I mean it was a very casual fast -editing type situation and in a very rural town and it was like oh this is not correct but you know it was it was fine they just poured us something else but it was just like, "Oh, you clearly just opened this and forgot about it, I guess, I don't know." Right, right. So that the oxidation is just oxygen getting in, right? Yeah, and in too much too soon. Changes, it will change the aroma profile. Yeah. And eventually it'll just become kind of flat. And also, oxidation tends to also push that equilibrium toward vinegar. So you tend to also get vinegariness with oxidation. And oxidation helps aceto -bacter. So if you have aceto -bacter, that'll also. - Okay, so oxidation can be a fault on its own at the wrong time. - Yeah, I feel like it's often intermingled with– - Yeah, it's intermingled with VA. So if the wine, if you get the wine and you're like, tastes like vinegar, I want to put it in my salad dressing. The fault is actually oxidization. - It's probably oxidized. - Oxidized, yeah. - It's probably oxidized. It may be VA, but it's probably oxidized too. - Yeah, that's so interesting. So, I think the only one we didn't talk about was heat. - Heat is more of like a storage thing and like a transportation thing, it's possible that in transport, wines can get pretty hot, so It depends on exactly how they've been moved around, how they've been stored, but heating up wine is it's matterizing it, so they're again, they're wines that are meant to be this way. Oh yeah, explain that wine. So it's madeira is like a cooked wine, and I mean it helps to preserve it, but it produces a very distinctive, I don't know, the way that when you cook fruit it tastes different, it tastes different. And It's just not, I think, again, if you meant to do it, then you've kind of made up for the balance of that wine. Although I love that story, that was another mistake as far as I understand it, right? I think it was a mistake. I think it was that one, the hot side of the ship of Madeira wine, Madeira wine, was like at the end of the day. The wines would get cooked. And they were like, actually, this tastes good. This tastes good. Making them that way at purpose? Am I right about that? Is that the story? - I think it did happen on ships. - I think it did happen on ships. - That led to sort of the development of then this vineyard cooking thing. I need to learn more about the exact history. That's the story that I was told. That's what's in my card catalog. But it's not my area of expertise. - I know it happened on ships. I just didn't know if it was like, I didn't know about the hot side of the ship. That makes sense. - That was the story someone told me. It was like hot side of the ship and you Yeah, it turned out to be a good thing. You know, it's like all right. It's like no mistakes in jazz, right? Yeah I think it was like I think in general they were finding that like Wine was very inconsistent when they were transporting it or like oh sometimes it's okay Sometimes it's terrible and like but if it gets cooked and it's pretty consistently cooked that it's like okay So we'll do that. Yeah, such one. I mean Madera's awesome But most of the time if you've been - Storing your wine at 80 degrees. - Yeah, it accelerates again. - It reads Fahrenheit. - You've added too much energy to this system 'cause you've added heat energy and that will translate, it's not like the wine stays hot, it translates into it spurs on all these chemical reactions. - So what does the wine taste like when you, the diner, put the glass in and say it's cooked? It's matterized. - It's weird because it's hard to say like what it tastes, it tastes like Madeira. But - It tastes like cooked fruit, tastes like cooked fruit. - Yeah, yeah. - Which like, again, not on its own, a bad spell, just it's not supposed to smell like that. When it's not supposed to, it doesn't have the rest of the things it needs to balance that taste. Like, I mean, Madeira has typically more sugar, right? It has the acidity to hold that up. Like if the wine isn't designed, isn't planned to do that, then it's not going to have the balanced to support it being cooked. - So you've got this wine that's not that old that you're expecting to taste like juicy red cherries and it tastes like kind of dried apples and old toffee. - Yeah. - Something like that? - Those aren't quite the exact right words, but that's sort of what I would– - Yeah, it starts to get into like, it tastes like brown. - Yeah. - Like whatever the brown is of this, it's brown. - Yeah, and you're like, that's not what I I was expecting it in my bottle of this wine in Seppia. I don't know. Seppia tone -wined. Yeah, yeah. \[MUSIC PLAYING\] "Motordy Berry Magazine" is the new newsletter about local drinks and local sayings. The magazine launched in November of 2024, featuring delicious writing about drinks and dialect by me, Rose Thomas Bannister, and the magazine's editor, Michelle Thomas, along with other fantastic guest contributors. Please take a moment to visit motordyberry .com and sign up for the newsletter. You'll be glad you did. My research was mostly on issues of reduction. Oh, good, because I want to know more about how reduction happens and what it is. Yeah, so reduction is, like chemically speaking, reduction is like a Lower in oxygen. So it's going to a state that is lower in oxygen is going to favor the stability of some compounds over others in the case of wine you tend to favor the stability of volatiles sulfur compounds, so Volatiles things that we can smell sulfur All the things we know about sulfur and think about sulfur in low oxygen environments you tend to favor stability of things like hydrogen sulfide which smells like rotten eggs and other volatile sulfur compounds, you can have aromas like any cabbage -y, burnt rubber, struck match. In a low oxygen environment, those can be more favorable to form. You can also accumulate things like hydrogen sulfide during, if you have like stock or sluggish fermentations, you can accumulate things like hydrogen sulfide. You can use copper treatments or something that can cause kind of metastable bound forms that can later release hydrogen sulfide. There's a couple of, I guess, different sources, but it's like if you have a reduced one, you're going to have hydrogen sulfide. By the time you're smelling it, it's a problem. If it's at very low levels, like I said, like swirling is usually enough to get rid of very low levels of it, but people have different sensitivities to the compound. You can smell it at like half a Piper -billion so some people can smell it that low so so is reduction of fault if Swirling it is gonna Disappear it depends on how much like I wouldn't call it faulty if swirling it was enough to get rid of the problem but Once it's a problem you also have this issue where like some of it's gonna be volatilized and some of it's in solubilized So like even as you swirl it more is going to replace it. Mm -hmm. So like you have this equilibrium between the liquid and the gas You would have to do that a lot before you even could get rid of it And then you also have not just hydrogen sulfide, but other volatile sulfur compounds It becomes a situation that you it's hard to get rid of all of that. So this low oxygen environment. Is this something that can happen to the wine through different stages in the whole process of the fermentation to the container, to the shipping. So it's usually like more reductive winemaking, so like low oxygen exposure winemaking, stainless steel tanks and not stainless steel tanks are bad, but like if you that's one way that you can keep oxygen out of fermentation. Obviously there's ways to add it back that people do to you know their wine making less reductive if that's what they prefer. Packaging plays a big role on whether something is held more in a more reductive state. So in general, we don't want a lot of oxygen getting into our wines. But until we're ready for it to open it up and open it up until we're ready to like aerate it somewhat, but typically The different closures have different rates of oxygen ingress, and that'll change, make the environment, again, that'll affect how reductive it is. And a good cork closure is an effective seal for the most part, but a screw cap is more reductive and a can is more reductive than that. Interesting. So I want to tell a story about me as kind of an early wine professional pouring for professional tastings. And all of these really experienced people are coming through. And it's my job to open the bottle, smell it, make sure it's OK, and serve it for everybody. And I've definitely discovered just a greater sensitization or understanding of different wine faults from, "Oh my God, is this an eye test? Is this a trick? I don't know. Shoot." Someone said this was corked and I couldn't tell to now, like, just after all this time, after all these bottles, I feel quite certain in my analysis. But one of the things I think that confused me a lot when, you know, young Psalm and this line of New York City wine buyers going through, there were some faults that were just like, oh, this wine is ruined. I can't believe you served it to me. I mean, not that people would be, usually people would be like, hey, you need to open another bottle and that's all it would be about, you know? It wasn't, I was feeling more bad for missing it than most people ever made me feel. But the other kind of thing is like, oh, this isn't a fault, but more like, I don't know, a bad teenage phase or something, you know? Or like just this wine is not in the of drinking as well as it can be there are certain things we can do it's understandable it doesn't mean it was a mistake how would you place reduction in that equilibrium between this this wine is ruined and we just need to shake it up it's in a weird aging moment or something like that does it depend on the reduction there are a lot of equilibrium wine there are some that are not equilibrium Okay, there is a rather like very strongly one direction that compound is unlikely to go back the other way that you can have some of that happening as well. So once you produce certain off compounds, including some volatile several compounds, like it's unlikely we're going to get rid of that. The cat is out of the bag. Yeah. Reduction is like when you, when people open a wine and they're like, like I can't smell anything, like oh this wine is too tight, like it needs to open up, we need to decant wine. A lot of that is about reduction, like I said, the swirling and the hydrogen sulfide, like that's about reduction, that's what decanting is often about as well. Like you're not oxygenating the wine, like oxygen is not reacting with what's in there. You are aerating it, but like that's almost physical, like a physical thing that's happening, not a chemical thing. - You're actually using the word energetic, which I don't think I've heard people use that in wine, or at least if they were, they were being poetic rather than spiritual, rather than scientific. What do you mean by energy in wine or energy in chemistry? I mean it, I guess like as a, I think this is the engineering thing where I think of all systems are some, are energy, like all systems represent some sort of energy, like systems in motion and systems at rest hold some sort of inherent energy, and chemical reactions represent energy. There is some molecules like this versus some molecules like this. There is a difference in those energy states, and because there's a difference in the energy state, there is a force that wants to push it from one to the other. And that's what I mean by, it's like energy, I mean it as a state, like a state of existence so like wine exists one way we know that when we age wine it's going to exist a different way so there is a difference in the what is called like the chemical like the chemical energy of that system this like this how it exists now that represents one energy how it was this later because it represents a different energy and there has to be an energetic change to get it from one to the other. So coming back to our our nervous diner our nervous wine host who's boldly opened the wine list, ordered the wine, and is now being poured this taste, and it smells like rotten eggs. - As a diner, I would personally send back if it was like this is rotten eggs, and I have smelled wines that are this is rotten eggs, like this is actually a problem. I've never sent back, I've never gotten a wine in a restaurant where it was that reduced. I've gotten a corked one. So, like, again, if it is, in fact, faulty, you can send it back. Often, they would have checked it too. Right. I actually like that form of choice a lot. I like that too, yeah. But there's a style where you have it on a little card, and then some taste it before they give it to you, and then there's a style where they put it all on you, and I think most of us prefer to have a little collaboration there. Yeah. I mean, like, Also like that's their job like we general people don't know about why folks like that's their whole thing They've they've learned about it so they can identify it, but again, we have different sensitivities That's why they're letting you double -check like I don't taste anything wrong with this Do you taste like you might be more sensitive or you see high -level wine people doing that all the time be like is it is it? Yeah, and you're like, oh, no, you're right, you know, and I've been We're like airing sometimes it's yeah more subtle where like three of us were like this is corked right like this is definitely corked and like but the person who bought it didn't think it was yeah and so it was like okay i guess we're just drinking this corked wine oh my god i won't do it i won't do it i like didn't have a refill of it i just ordered another bottle for the table and i was like i'll get this other bottle I think we went over the faults pretty well. I just kind of want to say like if this, I loved this, this is like bringing me to life. But if it's making you the diner feel even more overwhelmed, like, oh my God, you know, let just to review, you know, I'm the Psalm, you're the host, I pour you a little taste And you're smelling this and what you're looking for the list of kind of things that would indicate a problem would be rotten eggs Mm -hmm wet cardboard. Yep Nail polish remover nail polish remover Barnyard poo poo animal hay. Yeah combo hamster cage, corn chip, or a bruised or cooked fruit characteristic that you would not expect to be there based on what you've ordered. - Say like cooked, but like overcooked. - Overcooked, yeah. - I feel like that's part of it. It's like, it's not, 'cause sometimes a wine can be kind of jammy or like baked pie, but it's like, it's not baked, it's cooked in a negative, like overcooked. It's overcooked. - And at that point, whether you know or understand any of these chemical factors, that's when you slow down and be like, "This wine doesn't taste like I expected." And what I would say the main thing is, do not feel like you are insulting or offending the establishment or the winemaker or the region that it comes from by saying that "Believe me, any quality place will want to know that they have served you something that isn't acceptable and will immediately whisk it away and give you something else, another bottle of the same thing, try something different and that ritual is happening for you as the consumer and you should absolutely not sit there and suffer through drinking a bottle of wine that is flawed and it is not taste good and it's not taste right and you know, because what's going to happen then, maybe you're never going to order that again. I mean, if you're in the wine business, you're going to realize that something was wrong with them. You're also hopefully going to feel bolder and be like, no, no, no. I, the, the people who made this wine and the quality establishment that's serving to you want you to appreciate and learn and enjoy and experience this bottle. And if there's something in there that's not supposed to be like drinking, it is not like a badge of honor or like a favor. It's like really sad. Don't do that. Just slow down. And if you're not sure, ask questions. And you know, don't sit there and drink nail polish remover because you're scared of bothering someone. That's like the saddest, worst thing. And no one inequality, some winemaker salesperson continuum is going to want you to sit there and do that. So just that whole ritual exists so that you don't do that. I don't know, what are your feelings about that? Do you see people feeling kind of shy in that situation? And I think that people are generally pretty shy and the people, there is also a small portion of people who are too confident in that. - Okay, fair. Which like they learned just enough to get it to get a little bit of trouble. All right. All right. I mean, but if you are at all worried about how you're behaving, then you're fine. I mean, I don't know, you hear the stories of people setting things fast, insisting that it's off and it's not right fine. It's fine. They were being difficult. Or they didn't understand. They didn't understand. Or they're like, "Oh, it's quarked," but they detected a flaw, but it's definitely not quarked. Okay. And so, like, sometimes quarked is just used as the catch -all for. Okay. So if you're really excited about finding flaw detections, maybe slow down and check yourself a little bit. But if you are more of the person who's like, "Oh, I can't believe I have to ask them to maybe send this back. I'm so embarrassed." You're probably right. There's probably something wrong. - Yeah, there's probably something wrong. - Would you say that's the problem? - Yeah, like they want you to enjoy a wine. Like they don't want you to drink flawed wine. They also don't want to keep serving flawed wine. So like they need to know it's helpful. - I will let you know, I almost don't want to give this, well, no, I'm giving this away. In a wine bar situation especially, if let's say you're just wrong and the wine isn't isn't quirked, but you know what you are you not trying to trick anybody or get away with opening another bottle You just don't get it and you're wrong The worst thing that's gonna happen is that wine bar is gonna sell that bottle for the by the glass for the rest of the night Or or drink it themselves, you know But even then if let's say you are wrong and you're sitting there and you just don't get it These the restaurant still doesn't want you to be sitting there suffering or having this weird thing with this bottle. And the best thing that can happen in is if people are really stressed out about this, I think already the education level or something's wrong in the ecosystem, that there's a flaw. There's a, the energy is wrong, right? So hopefully you're in a place where you're feeling comfortable and you're feeling empowered to ask questions and discuss the wine with your psalm who's there to do that for you. And it's really excited when people ask questions. But I think the worst thing that could happen is somebody who's really interested in wine and just getting into it, getting something that tastes really weird to them, but is like too embarrassed or shy and then just sits there and kind of drinks the whole bottle. Instead of using that opportunity, that often expensive opportunity, you know, not always, but sometimes expensive opportunity to like discover something wonderful. So I'm not here to suffer. That's kind of the motto of me and the show, which I got from my friend, Dr. Pamela Henry Longsmall. So yeah, don't be suffering. - Yeah, I'd say suffering's antithetical to the drinking of wine. - I would say so, yeah. Try not to suffer. - Yeah, it's very, I don't think that's what they were after. So here you are, Dr. Rachel B. and the new Wine Enthusiast Future 40, Wine Professional Educator, what is going on for you in your career? What's new? What are you working on? - I'm working on a new project, collaborating with a couple of, one of my former colleagues from Cornal and another friend who's also a PhD in viticulture on a project in wine education. So, I'm kicking things off with my project called Psalm Science, and it's a series of talks that I've given in the past that focus on flavor chemistry, but are strictly speaking wine tastings. So, I loved hosting wine tastings, teaching wine tasting as a grad student, and we would do this for pretty diverse audiences in terms of like their background and wine level, although for the most part the wine level was beginners. But wine is for curious people, wine is for curious people and engaged people and we definitely got that in our academic setting And I've seen that with groups that I've given that talk to since. And it's a wine tasting, it's, you know, we have, we tell you all the steps of, you know, see, looking at the wine, swirling it, sniffing it, we cover different styles. We talk about where the wine is from. But we also dive a little deeper into some of the flavor chemistry behind what you might be experiencing. So when we swirl and sniff, like why do we do that? Well, we do it to volatilize low levels of hydrogen sulfide in the wine. Why do we even have low levels of hydrogen sulfide? Well, we can talk about that too. And I'm hoping to kind of bring this a bit of that, you know, my science background, my science education background to wine education and kind of blend the science communication with it For people for whom maybe Classic wine education doesn't resonate as much or for the people who for whom it does and it they just want to learn more They just have more questions. I think there is an appetite for For more technical information in wine I mean I go to lots of tastings and people people have these questions I do people have these questions and what happens but I'm not told how yeah you know I'm told this wine tastes this way when it's grown in these rocks but I'm not told how the flavor gets there you know I always have more science questions so I think this is I'm really excited about this yeah and I think it's kind of I mean like you were saying it's it doesn't is not a it's not in conflict with the idea of natural winemaking. It is very fundamentally a scientific process. And you can still, I personally think that science is very creative and very artistic, so I don't see that they're in conflict at all. And you can be doing extremely natural, quote unquote, winemaking and still be, you're still harnessing science for the most part. Can can science be misused? Sure. But I don't think that's what we're getting at here. And, you know, for the, you know, slightly more technically minded or for the technically curious, this I think is like a nice way to think about it. Like I've given this talk mainly, I get it from a couple of like STEM audiences. But also just like, I don't know, I would do this at work in my corporate job. I would do this, like I said, for grad students, postdocs, people from lots of different fields we'd kind of have different periods where we'd have like, oh, a bunch of engineers are coming to our talks or I do a talk for, I used to give a wine talk for the civil engineering department. We do one for economics, applied economics. And sometimes we get into these very interesting interdisciplinary conversations about about how wine and its whole story plays into the kinds of things they do, but we still talk about it in that structured way that you do as a scientist, as a researcher. - Wine is so interdisciplinary. I can't think of anything more disciplinary. That's why I– - Interdisciplinary, yes. Well, I mean, there's just so many things that connect. I mean, my actual visual of it was as a river that was just gonna sweep me away when I was in cocktails I was around wine you know I started working at an Italian restaurant you know in in Brooklyn and they got me into Italy into wine and into Italian and I could just see it I was like this is gonna take over my life and finally one day I was like okay let's go and I just jumped in the river and but the reason is that there's so much learning. You know, languages, geology. I'd love to learn more about geology. Like, hats off to your mom, you know, and historic international borders and conflict. Geopolitics. Yeah. I was reading, you did this great interview with the online publication, The Grape Collective, where you said something about why I'm just attracting learners or people who love to learn. Yeah, because you can't learn it all you even if you learned it all today Like let's say you could just you tasted today you tasted every wine possible You've tried them all and for some reason you can retain all that information you learned all of it It would change tomorrow. I could not agree more We talk about wine as being like living, but it's not that it's living. It's that it's Chemistry and chemistry is dynamic. It's you know, like It's a whole bunch of equilibrium, and equilibrium reactions naturally have the two arrows. The erection goes in both directions. There's an equilibrium between the alcohol form and an acid form of a compound, and the way you write that is you put an arrow this way and an arrow that way. That's the formal chemical way. And that tells you that this reaction can go both directions, depending on the chemical environment. So you have all these things that are dynamic. - So like that this could become vinegar. - That's how it becomes vinegar. That's how things become, like the most stable form of this is like is the more stable form is vinegar down the line. This is an interim state that we hope keeps in a place that we enough of a form that we like to drink it for as long as we want to drink it. But energetically something else is favorable and it's going to ultimately go in that direction. But we've manipulated it in a way that keeps it sensorially appealing for a period. Your entree to science was both with your scientific parents, but also baking, you know, like, And that's beautiful. What have you been baking lately? And what's what's magical least scientific about about baking for you? I've actually been making like caramels a lot lately. I don't know. I just Really wanted caramels and so I started like doing a little research because it's been a minute since I've done it and it's was actually kind of a pain just because of the humidity and so Had one or two failed attempts of things But yeah, I sort of sort of got it together made some like kind of ginger -infused caramel It's made some like kind of more classic Butter caramels, but I did them with like a brown butter to kind of see how that would change the flavor because it's already like Something that is plenty of browned aromas. So you have like my reactions. You have actual caramelization Just all of these different things sort of happening And, like, I mean, a lot of those reactions are also rather– my reactions are, like, a thing we talk about a lot in wine flavor in champagne. I was kind of thinking about that, but I don't know. I think I have a friend's birthday coming up, so I might make a birthday cake, so I'm excited for that. - Oh, that's so nice. - Yeah. - So where can people follow you and get updates about Psalm Science and your other wine communication projects. Yeah, so I'm on Instagram at SOM Science. That is the new platform that I'm starting up, but it can be followed also at my name, R *Allison. R* Allison. Yeah. Well, I'm dates. I'm gonna follow you. I'm gonna follow what you do because I like learning from you and thank you so much for coming on the show and allowing all of us to hear about all of this really cool scientific stuff. It was really a pleasure. Is there anything else that you want to share that you want to add about your career, wine in general, things that you'd like people to know or think about? Nothing comes to mind. I feel like we've covered a lot of things. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Thank you for being here to all of our listeners. Thank you And wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. (upbeat music) Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and filmed by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Spitting Out Your Coffee ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e7-brian-gelletly-barista-trainer/) [ How to Blind Taste ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e5-dr-rachel-b-allison-blind-tasting/) ### ▷S3E5 Blind Tasting with Dr. Rachel B. Allison, Wine Flavor Scientist (Part 1) URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e5-dr-rachel-b-allison-blind-tasting/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T04:27:25.000Z Blind tasting—deducing the grape, age and geographic origin of a wine based on sensory analysis alone—can seem like the wine world’s most mystical practice. Wine flavor scientist Dr. Rachel B. Allison came on the Modo di Bere podcast to break down exactly how it’s done. You can watch Dr. Allison blind taste a wine in the video version of the podcast, and maybe even start to learn how to blind taste wine yourself. Dr. Allison chats with RT about how she grew up bilingual, thinking in a language the rest of her family didn’t understand. They contemplate whether Montreal’s favorite swear word is actually a wine term, and they discuss how getting in better touch with your own sense of smell is a lot like learning a language. Dr. Rachel B. Allison, a wine flavor scientist, educator, and competitive blind tasting champion who grew up bilingual in Canada. Dr. Allison has a Ph.D. in wine flavor chemistry from Cornell University, and an Undergraduate degree in Engineering Chemistry from Queen’s University. Her paper with Austin Montgomery on hydrogen sulfide formation in canned wines was selected as the Best Enology Paper of 2023 by the American Society for Enology and Viticulture. Alongside many previous accolades, Dr. Allison was just named one of Wine Enthusiast Magazine's Future Forty in 2024\. Learn more about Dr. Allison's work at [www.rachelballison.com](http://www.rachelballison.com/?ref=mododibere.com). **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript In general, not absolutely, but blind tasting. And I think that's what throws off a lot of people getting into it. This idea that someone can deduce down a wine and is like, "Oh, they're going to get it right." You could deduce it very well and describe it very accurately and still be wrong. The nose is very powerful, but we are easy to trick. Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. This episode features strong drinks as well as strong language. Today I'm super delighted to interview Dr. Rachel B. Allison, a wine scientist, educator, and competitive wine tasting champion. Dr. Allison has a PhD in wine flavor chemistry from Cornell University and an undergraduate degree in engineering chemistry from Queens University. Her paper with Austin Montgomery on hydrogen sulfide formation in hand wines was selected as the best analogy paper of 2023 by the American Society for Anology and Viticulture. Dr. Allison has been awarded and recognized for her research and communication skills by the American Chemical Society, the Association of African American Vintners, Women of the Vine and Spirits, the COSI Award in Food Science, the National Association of Flavors and Food Ingredients Systems, and many other academic and viticultural institutions and societies. Dr. Allison, thanks so much for coming on the show. - Thank you for having me, excited to be here. - Before I start the interview with this exciting guest, I wanna let you know that Modo di Bere is a listener -supported show. So please take a moment to visit patreon.com/mododibere and become a supporter. Dr. Allison and I will be here when you get back. I understand that you also, in addition to these awards that I mentioned, you have some news about a new accolade as of this morning. I do. So this morning, the Wine Enthusiast Future 40 was announced and I am very happy, honored, grateful. Oh, I sound like a LinkedIn post to be on that list. Listen, that is really exciting. I was absolutely jumping up and down when you told me. That's so cool. Congratulations. - It's a really cool group of people. I would have to spend even more time just looking through everybody's bios. I'm really excited to meet everybody on that list. Although I'm happy to say that there's a few people that I do know and I'm so glad to see them getting their flowers as well. And including one of my former lab mates. It's so exciting to see him getting recognition for all his work too. - That's amazing. So this is a wine magazine's list of wine professionals to watch. - Beverage professionals as well. So wine, spirits, there's cocktails in there. Sometimes there's, I've seen people who work in wine packaging and sustainability. So really a range of, let's say future, hopefully thought leaders, taste makers. - That's amazing, congratulations. I understand that you grew up in Montreal and Toronto. Did you grow up speaking French? - I did, but kind of uniquely even in my family, I'm the only French speaker in my family. I went to school in French with children who didn't speak English So I had to learn to speak French But my parents don't speak French and my siblings were too young to start school So I'm the only person in my family of six I mean a family of six who speaks any French, which is odd, but you know, it worked, I guess So your parents weren't from Montreal originally? No, my parents came from Jamaica. my parents grew up in Jamaica. They moved to Montreal because my mom went to McGill to do her PhD. So they went there for grad school and then they ended up staying there afterwards. So you were actually the first person from Canada that I've interviewed for Motodiveri, which is great because I want to ask you about local language because the only thing I know is a swear word, "optismal" or something. Oh yeah, "tablinax" is definitely curse word and I think it's just... I didn't grow up in the Catholic Church, but I'm assuming it's just so deeply sacrilegious to say something like that outside of its formal religious setting that it is a pretty bad swear word. Because I did, my family didn't speak French, it was never even like a swear word that was on our radar as like something we thought about because I don't think my parents even thought to tell me not to say it. So what does that refer to? I think it's like something related to like the the Eucharist, Body of Christ, the cup for the wine, maybe. All right, so a wine reference. I think it is a wine reference. A lot of Christ, Body of Christ. Having not really engaged too much in Catholic Church, I wasn't totally sure what it is used for other than I wasn't supposed to say it. - Yeah, you know what? That's so interesting going back into wine history. Just the fact that red wine kind of looks like blood has had a lot of ritual meanings and in a lot of different cultures and histories. But that's cool. I didn't really think of that as like a wine blasphemy. So I'll have to keep that in my lexicon as actually maybe a somewhat drinking related term. (upbeat music) So what was it like moving from Montreal to Toronto in terms of like accent? I definitely had a Quebec accent as a kid, although I think now for the most part it's gone mainly because I don't speak French too much. I went into French immersion school when I moved to Toronto as a kid. So I think I was with other children speaking French, but they were not native speakers. So it just the fact that I could speak French already was the main thing people focused on, not the accent. The accent or lack thereof was not so noticeable in Canada. Although when I started traveling abroad in my 20s, that's when people would start, particularly in France, when someone might comment on my accent. - How is the Quebec accent sonically different from France -French? - It's more nasal sounding and the words seem narrowed and like drawn out differently. My understanding is that French people see it as kind of like a hillbilly accent, but like, I don't know, it just is what it is. Can understand it. It sounds normal to me. I'm always happy when people are focused more on communication than accent style, unless it's true appreciation of the diversity of different sense. I think it's like maybe having a pretty heavy southern drawl or something. Yeah, like it's you can understand it's just you have to get used to the cadence of the cadence of language is a little different. We have lots of wine stuff to talk about. I'm really interested talking to bilingual kids, different languages are spoken at home. So what language were you interacting and communicating with at home? I mean, I spoke English with my family, but I thought in French a lot. So I was translating in my head, which is interesting because now I have to go in the other direction because I don't speak French often at all. So I have to translate in my head. If I'm traveling in France, it takes me at least a week to start thinking in French. But as a kid, I thought in French and so I would get frustrated when I was trying to talk to my parents and I couldn't think of the right words and I would just substitute in French words or I'd switch to French when talking to them and then they would get frustrated because I was obviously not speaking English. So I feel like you end up spending a lot of time in your own head with language like that. And there's, I don't know, it's just some, there's some words, some concepts, some things that just, they'd exist for me in French that that's just their natural state in my head versus in English. - So when we were talking earlier, you mentioned not really speaking Pachwa. - My parents grew up speaking pretty formal English as well. They actually spent part of their childhoods in London. - Okay, okay. - Actually at the same time, 'cause both my grandfathers went to school in London. So both their families were there at the same time in different parts of London, which is also kind of random. My parents have extremely formal English as well. My parents do speak, they can speak Pachwa, but they never really spoke it around us. And then we all grew up just sound Canadian. Like we sound Canadian. And I didn't even realize I had a Canadian accent until I was in Nevada visiting like a mining site. And one of my friends was like, "Yeah, you have a super strong Canadian accent." - So that kind of generational immigrant experience was one that your parents had already had with their parents. - Oh, that's so interesting. - Yeah, my family comes from all over the Caribbean, so my parents grew up in Jamaica, but their families are from Jamaica and Barbados and Guyana and Trinidad. Even before that, people are from other places, like my family, well, my mom's side is from China. - Wow, okay, all right. So you've got this amazing multicultural background. Are your grandparents still in London? - No, my grandparents are in Jamaica and in Canada, actually they came up your family are all scientists so how did you get from science into wine I mean I definitely linked the two but I always figured I would be in sciences because that was in my head like a normal like everybody just did sciences and it never really occurred to me that you could do something I have my whole family's just, it's a lot of sciences, a lot of sciences, bit of math sprinkled in there. I went into engineering 'cause it seemed like you could learn a lot of good fundamental science there. Also, I guess in just like, I don't know what the way sometimes 17 year olds are, you're like, this seems hard and I wanna do a thing that's hard. I just went after what I thought would be a hard program, but I realized a couple Years into the degree that the jobs that were coming out of it didn't look like anything I really wanted to do in engineering in engineering. Yeah, particularly that just the exposure you got in chemical engineering was a lot of pure oil and gas work environmental engineering Applications which like conceptually very interesting. I really enjoyed studying that but I didn't really want to do it today I'd always been interested in food in flavor in seeing how like ingredients come together, how they're transformed. Like to me that was, that was chemistry. I'd always liked that. I really love baking. I still really love baking. So I Googled food science summer classes to see if I could learn some more about this idea I had that I could be in food sciences. Cornell has a food science summer scholars program or that's aimed at non -food science majors to expose them to that field through like a summer research program. I had about 10 days I think to make the deadline to apply and I threw something together. I wrote about my interest in my application essay. It's just like probably rambled about flavors and stuff I thought about related to flavors. And I was matched to a lab that happened to do wine and grape chemistry, which is, again, I wasn't specifically going after wine and grape. I was pursuing it from a flavor standpoint, flavor science, but I think like a lot of people, once you get into wine, it's very hard to fully like go over that. Like it's easy to fall into it. And it was like the first time that I felt like this is how you're supposed to feel when you study things. Like this is how excited I was to do it. For example, the PhD student that I worked with then, he's now a professor at Penn State. His work was a lot in plant pathology. So he was working on treatments for powdery in grape vines. So my job was literally to like make smoothies of rotting grapes and then test them for like residual fungicide. And like, honestly, gross, like why was I like, I think about that like gross, but it was so interesting that I was objectively, this is very gross, like, and I didn't find that as gross as probably much cleaner work that I was doing in other parts of science. So I think I kind of knew for the time that if I was willing to do something that was objectively pretty gross and it was very interesting. - You were like, "This is it." - I was like, "It's gotta be this. Yeah, I guess the ticket's gotta be this." I went into that lab, he went on to be my PhD supervisor. He was the first person to really encourage me academically in research, other than like my family. And he also had that, I got that sense of someone who was just really excited about research and just wanted to tell you cool things about research. I remember walking into the lab tour and he just started taking things out of one of the research fridges like smell this, what do you smell like? Which is not a thing you usually do in chemistry labs, but in food science, you can kind of do stuff like that. And I was like, this is great. I love it. That's awesome. All I want to do is like, smell random things. That's a lot of what we do. In fact, I'll tell my Somalia students that the program where I teach to just go into the grocery store and sniff all the fruit. The other day I was in a store where the peaches were really ripe. It was hitting me like a wave. - No, totally. Apparently, I was talking to some childhood friends and they were saying that there's a video of us from one of their birthday parties where maybe about nine years old. And it's just a scene of nine -year -old girls just running around, yelling, laughing, all these things. And I'm sitting at the dining table with a plate of food smelling all the foods on my plate. - Oh my God, you're natural. - It's just like, oh no, it's always been true. - That's beautiful. - I feel like I was just like, I was very, well I was always very particular about food, but it was like, I wanted to smell every, I wanted to, what are these foods? What are they, what am I smelling here? - That's so great, I love that curiosity. That makes complete sense. Dr. Elson, because when we met at an event for the podcast, point in hip hop, you told me that you had been a competitive blind tasting champion and I was so impressed. Can you explain for our listeners what is blind tasting? Blind tasting is when you assess a wine visually, orthonazily, retronazily, you taste it and you have to elucidate its origin, describe bit, describe its characteristics, and then use deductive reasoning to figure out what the wine is, what the grape varieties are, the blend, set its place of origin, quality level based on, you know, what you know of the wine making in that region, what wine making techniques have gone into making this wine, what vintage it might be from. In some cases, in some competitions, what winery it's from, depending on where, what type of competition you're in. And I will say that I obviously very exciting to have, I did all of this when I was at Cornell in the blind, we have a competitive blind tasting team called Cuvay, which was a lot of fun. And I learned so much about one through that group with the Professor Cheryl Stanley, who is our team coach. We did win one competition, but we absolutely did not win. And it's, I don't know, a good, a good learning experience to see how things swing in wine tasting and some days you're on and some days you really are not. Really in a way what got me into wine was someone who could do that, demonstrating both blind tasting and also just some really beautiful poetic tasting notes and the fact that she could identify the grape, the vintage, the region. I just was immediately Like, how did you do that? I must know. I want to do that. That's so cool. I thought it was really amazing the precision with which these flavors could be picked out and described and it just seemed like magic. But all these years later, I'm like, no, it was science. Yeah, I think there's a little overlap for the science we don't yet understand or can't yet fully capture. We see a lot of that. But that's our job in political chemistry to separate and quantitate compounds. So in things like flavor chemistry and aroma chemistry, you're usually dealing with extremely small molecules because particularly with wine, we're dealing with things you smell. If you can smell it, it has to be small enough and light enough to go into the air and go into your nose. So very small molecules and usually at very low concentrations. So it is very hard to separate those out from all the other stuff in wine, which there is a lot, and then count them. We barely have equipment that is sophisticated enough even to count them. - So this is the machine? - The machine is, the nose is actually quite an effective machine for this in isolation, but we obviously, we can't reliably smell a thousand samples in a day, like we can't do it. So we're not like We're not consistent machine, but the noses usually can be more sensitive to compounds than even our limits of detection in analytical methodology. That is so cool. I like to tell people it's not becoming this magical bloodhound. It's a result of the real trick is the books that you read as much as the wines that you smelled. I guess our noses are pretty astonishing. Our noses are pretty powerful. It is the combination of the, let's say, the books that you read and the wines that you taste that you smell, because you have to develop, it's like, you have to develop it like a muscle, like in the same way that we're very used to visual, auditory stimuli, like, I can look at like a thousand different shades of blue and still probably say, like, yeah, that's blue, like, I would still recognize that it's blue, that's because I've seen a lot more blue and I've been taught that we learn colors as kids. I didn't get that with smell, And I didn't get that with taste so I like when you do blind tasting you have to teach that to yourself I do think of it as language learning Yeah, and then the way that like blue is something that I see but I have words for it I had to translate between two different senses to communicate it. It's the same thing with smell And we have to translate into this is raspberry or this is Violet violet and raspberry have the same key odorant It's the context that kind of tells you which one you decide which one you're smelling. Tell me more about that. So a lot of flavors, a lot of flavors smells are not just one compound. There's often a key odorant, so one compound that you have to have that compound or it's not going to be recognizable as the thing we think it is. Just on its own, it wouldn't actually be enough to qualify it. So for something like violets, it's beta -ionone. And if you you'd be like, "Yeah, it's floral, like kind of like punchy floral." And you'd be like, "Sure, that could be violets, but you smell violets and they smell different." Because there's other things happening as well. But the thing is that smell, that compound, it's also raspberry. I was wanting to ask you to translate or define a couple other terms, which is the orthonazole and the retronazole, but maybe it would be easier to just demonstrate. Are you down for a little blind tasting? I mean, I'm game as long as we could, we could talk through it, that should be fun. - All right, well, cheers. Thanks for coming. I guess you maybe don't want to taste it yet though, so take us through the process here of blind tasting. - You do all the steps of typical wine tasting, so you're going to assess it. Usually you start by assessing it visually. You hold the glass at an angle. You take a look at the center. That kind of gives you the truest color, but you also look at the rim of the glass to see if there's any discoloration there, any change in the color, or change differences in the, I guess, undertones of the wine. Can you talk more about that? What kind of rim, when we say rim variation? - So like rim variation, you might have like a wide watery rim or a thinner rim. Usually a thinner rim means that there's like more color intensity overall, and that can indicate a younger wine. In general, not absolutely kind of situation with wine tasting, and I think that's what throws off a lot of people getting into it, this idea that someone can deduce down a wine and is like, oh, they're gonna get it right. You could deduce it very well and describe it very accurately and still be wrong. The nose is very powerful, but we are easy to trick. - I think people are sometimes confused by rim. Can you– - Oh, what exactly are we talking about? - Let's say you hold the glass at an angle over, you wanna hold it over like a white background so that you can kind of assess the color of the wine. The surface of the wine is the main thing you're assessing. The rim is the edge of that surface of wine. Kind of like around. So right around the around here. Yeah. So the edge of that surface. So you can see on this particular wine, I would not say there's a lot of rim variation. Sometimes that we see there's like a little gets lighter as you know, the meniscus forms at the edge of the glass. Sometimes that there's a lot more lightness than just a Domeniscus, and that kind of tells you about the like the extraction, the opacity of the wine, like maybe other things have, over time, sometimes solids will fall out of a wine, so you will have like less kind of color intensity. So we can kind of tell you maybe about which grape you're starting with. Can tell you about the grape you're starting with and age. In terms of grape you're starting with, you're also looking at the opacity of the wine, of course. The color for most wines is coming from the skin of the grapes. So typically speaking, if it's thin skinned, you have, there's a maximum amount of color you're realistically going to be extracting from that versus if it's a thick skin grape, there's going to be just a lot more color that can get into the wine. So you have a greater source of color compounds. So typically if the wine is, let's say not inky dark, if it's kind of see kind of translucent, we're dealing with a thinner skinned grape, not a thicker skinned grape. There are exceptions, but blind tasting is it's deductive reasoning. You're making your the best guess, so you're usually going to pick the most statistically likely thing. So if you want to take us through what you're seeing here, what are some of the deductions you're already making just from visuals? So I'm seeing this as like a garnet color. It's not a lot of rim variation, but it is a little paler. This is a translucent wine, so I would guess it's a thinner skinned grape. There's no sediment and there's no bubbles in this, so I wouldn't guess it's super old. So you can already knock out, I would knock out sparkling wines, I would knock out thick skin grapes. I would put them in a very low likelihood category right now, because it's possible to do light extraction on thicker skin grapes. And I see that sometimes, particularly in cool regions where you may have grown a thicker skin grape that didn't get as ripe as you wanted. So you made a heavy rosé versus a full red wine and you might end up with something colored like this. - Do you have a visualization that you use for deductive reasoning? - I mean, often I'll take notes just because that usually helps me to have stuff written down. I also just like to verbalize a lot of it. And for me, I think I have a somewhat unique experience in that all of my competitive tasting was in a team. So in terms of exams and for a lot of people who do blind tasting, competitions are like individual exercises, but I always did it as a team exercise and that was honestly something that I liked a lot. I'm sure it makes everybody stronger. To have to communicate. Yes, it makes you have to be a communicator and our team, like I said, it was run out of the Cornell's hotel school, the hospitality program. And I was the like V &E captain, so the vidculture analogy captain, and we had a hospitality captain as well, who I actually saw yesterday. We were chatting about wine. She works here in the city, in a wine shop. We had people from a lot of different academic backgrounds even then as undergrads, as grad students. And we were also one of the only teams to send undergrads to competitions. So, understandably, You can only drink once you're 21 so someone had to be 21 before we could train them in our team Oh, wow So we had very short runways of how long we could practice together actually get used to tasting together and also catch them up on all the knowledge all the tasting miles they would need to compete with Entirely European teams all the other teams are European schools where people had more access to wine and a lot more experience than us So we had to be very strategic in the ways that we communicate and in the ways that we train. - So how did you choose the people to be on your team? - So we had a bigger team selection of, you know, it was like a written test of just general wine knowledge. And then from that, as a captain myself and Evelyn would choose individual people to assign to different competitions so that they could focus their learning. Honestly, like my strategy as a captain and like as a captain of a team that went to compete. I chose people that I felt did well when uncomfortable. Like that was what I look for in my team. Turn out the air conditioning and see how they did it. I mean I guess I pick people who if you're doing something that's you don't need to be doing or that that's uncomfortable then like if you're here and you don't need to be nobody needs to be here like this is not the specific thing that you do. I don't need to do blind tasting in the hotel school to like get my PhD. Like they're unrelated things kind of. - It's a big commitment. - It's a big commitment. At the end, like you are, we train as a team, like all of us together. So you're probably tasting wine like five, six times a week. We're all full -time students, researchers and all that stuff. I picked a PhD in chemical engineering. I took one PhD in chemical engineering on my team. David and a human ecology pre -med, Susie, hotel ops, Megan, and food and beverage, Brian. Again, so no one was like, ah, you're going to be a psalm, like that's a specific thing you're doing. It was like, you're here extra. Like it's a little extra for you, but you're still here and you're still doing it every day. So like, and it's like, especially the like chemical engineers, the pre -med, like you definitely don't need to be here. I just love this idea that's like, you know, actually something that's a side quest and the fact that you're there doing something really hard as a side quest as a plus, as a sign of commitment. I think you just killed my conservatory music minor heart. I wish I'd had an advisor like you to pick me for a team. Wine can be very snobby, but I guess we have, I'm a scientist. Like I'm a scientist who happens to do wine and then I got into really loving wine and like loving blind tasting and like really a greater appreciation of what assembly it does and it was not to say that the people in our group who were going on the assembly to track were like not good they were excellent but like you don't need me to look further for that I already like it's already there I'm gonna look further because I also feel like I'm I'm a bit of an oddball coming into this I remember going to my first blind tasting with the other V &E grad students and it was like that thing where it's like oh it's magic how are they doing this like and I'm smelling this wine and I remember the only notes I wrote for that whole tasting were like old world new world question mark like what are they talking about you know so you pick these people from off the beaten path who didn't have the snobby credentials they were in the club you know they passed the basic knowledge test that we did they were showing up to tastings And they all could do it, like everyone could do it. And I just felt that we competed in Switzerland at a competition held by a big hotel school there. I mean, we don't know a lot about Swiss wine, but I looked in the library system, found every book I could on Swiss wine, ordered them to our library, and I assigned them to people. This is your book now. You got to learn about this. We got to learn about this. And like we crushed the theory section of that competition because we actually study, we prepare, we're trying to make up for the things that we lack. My teammates, some had amazing palettes, just not the tasting confidence of a song. But like, I would take down every note that he said because he was always spot on. Just his ability to pull it together, not quite there. For theory, I mean, no one can memorize like a pre -med. Nobody can remember obscure things like a pre -med. It's like, oh, we need to know what are the top five countries for like, Sofina Blanc plantings in the world. She knows that. So we get points for stuff like that. And like, statistically, where could this be from? She'll know something like that. So you created like this a ragtag super team. Like, we shouldn't be good, but we are. And you won. We did win. You won. And honestly, like, all the teams are so good. Like, it's, It does come down to a little to luck at the end of the day like all the teams are good But like you can throw anybody off on the day of like what did you eat for lunch? Like and the ability of people from different parts of the world to actually familiarize themselves with Different wine everything. Yeah, there was one round where I know that we all guessed wildly different Things and I think the team from Bordeaux guessed an Italian Italian wine, our team, I think we guessed a French wine, and then the UK team guessed, I think they guessed a French wine as well, but from a completely different place, and it was like, see, we're all smart. Everyone here has lots of wine knowledge, but we all, as teams, decided vastly different things. We didn't even think about Italian wines. How do we even get into that one? I've never even had that wine. How could we call that we've never had it, But they have this palette of knowledge that we don't have and like it's, you know, makes a whole industry to have all of it together. Yeah, we need everybody. Yeah. I feel personally really strongly that the more something goes towards becoming elitist or snobby, the more mediocre it gets because of like resting on laurels and because of overconfidence, you know, just not really having to do what you guys do. Just be like, we're going to read every single book about this as always with any field. The more somebody knows, the less they give off this, I know everything, because they know. - The more you realize you don't know, yeah. So coming back to this one, when you analyzed the visuals and thought about what we might deduce from that, what about the nose? And can you explain those terms orthonazole and retronazole? - Orthonazole means things that you smell, let's say directly up your nose, and retronazole is things that you smell through the back of your nose. So once wine is in your mouth, the wine warms up, the pH of your mouth is different. So like certain compounds that may not be as volatile might become volatile, some things get released. There are volatiles, so aroma compounds that are released in the mouth that you can smell through the back of your nose because we know it's a channel. So you can smell things through the back of your nose as well as through the front of your nose. But the things you smell through the back of your nose may be slightly different than what you're smelling through your nose. Oh, this is so interesting. Sometimes you will see things that will appear that you didn't get so much initially, or things that were very faint that are now stronger, and that will give you maybe a clearer picture of what might be going on. Oh, so let's do the orthonazole tasting. So on the orthonazole, I guess like upfront, I get kind of like a luxardo, like a maraschino cherry, like the dark, the dark cherry, a bit of like Plum, but interestingly, it's not like it's not a particularly powerfully pretty wine. It has some I guess reserve That's the feeling I get on it. It's a bit reserved I know like Old World New World stuff when we talk about that in wine It's I honestly feel like a lot of it tends to blend together these days just because like one is such a Global thing and you have winemakers moving all over the world So and the climate change and the climate changing because you explain what that typically is supposed to mean? Old world is typically European wines and New World is anywhere else. When you get into Eastern Europe also technically Old World wines like Georgia, Armenia and a lot of Eastern Europe does produce wine. Greece, oh my gosh how could I leave out Greece? I love Greece, I love Greek wine but a lot of Eastern Europe further east do produce wine as well but I would say they're just not as much of a commercial scale globally. - In the blind tasting, when you say, okay, I'm gonna decide first this wine, it's Old World or New World? Like what is that in the glass? - Usually what I'm looking for stylistically, very, very generally, Old World wines, or let's say, New World wines tend to be from slightly warmer places, tend to, and tend to stylistically be a bit more fruit forward. So when I smell a new worldwide, usually the first thing I smell is whatever the fruit characteristic is. Again, not an absolute. There are some, some regions sometimes that don't really encourage that kind of precursor, but usually new world wines we think of as being like more fruit forward and old wood wines is being less fruit forward, more something else, whether it's earthy or mineral Something else just speaking of non fruit in here. Are we getting I know you like flowers or for me It's like floral and maybe like light potting soil. I feel like it's not quite the Not the forest floral round of dirt like not the de comp kind of smell but just very light earth And like dried flower. What about that compound you were telling me about before that could be Expresses raspberry or could be expressed as violets. - I could see that being in here. Beta, I don't know. - Beta, I don't know. Note of beta, I don't know. - Honestly, tasting sometimes with our grad student group, particularly like the wine chemists, the wine microbiologists, like we do talk about it that way sometimes. We're just like, do you feel like this has with thought? Like the, you know, people love to talk about the oxypherosines, but we're just like, IVMP? Like how, parts, parts for billion? Like how much do you how much do you think is in here? I think this brings up a good point. Who you're tasting with really matters if you're tasting for a competition, if you're tasting with flavor scientists, if you're tasting with food writers, if you're tasting with a team or not. Right. You're trying to reach like a consensus versus we're just talking about it and everyone comes up with their own guess. Coming to a consensus you do a little bit have to be persuasive. Right. I would never say with oxypherosin as if I was tasting at a team 'cause I'm gonna sound like an asshole. Like, I'm not gonna start saying like percentages. No, that's - - Unless you knew that the whole team was on the chemistry. - Unless the whole team was doing that. But like, I've never been in a team where we were all that background. So it was like, no, that will come across as kind of obnoxious. So I'm not gonna do that. - I do have a few little factoids in the brain pan that I really like that I don't always pull out. Like we were talking about colors and I was like, oh, or like like San Giovese, that's low and isolated anthocyanins. You know, we have our terms. I'm getting more of those kind of floral raspberry notes as I kind of hang out with it a little bit. So what are you deducing from what you're finding on the nose, or what process are you going through? Well, I start with thinking about Old World. For me, this feels more Old World 'cause it's a little more reserved and it's for equality. I immediately start trying to match Old World wines, regions, grapes, regions that have grapes that are thin skinned. And I start to think of what things could it be? And then before I'm like really gonna start thinking about the structure. And then when I have the structure, I'll go through that list and cross things out because I want to make sure my list is comprehensive before I start taking things out. - What's interesting about the book learning part is you gotta populate that list. - Yeah. - Right, you gotta know what's on the list. - So you need to know what's thin skinned and which parts of the world might I be in? Like do I feel like this is, I don't feel that this one is particularly hot or particularly cool. So I'm not at extreme, I don't feel like I'm in an extreme climate. So I've also like narrowed that down. I'm kind of like in a certain band of Europe where I'm thinking about this is already gonna make me sound old but my visual is I think of populating the card catalog what could this be and then you're like kind of throw things out like but you got to put the cards in there in the first place yeah so that you don't miss something as you're figuring out what to choose from so what thin -skinned old -world grapes are running through your your mind as you do that process I start with Pino and Gamay from France I go across statistically you could have Pino from like Switzerland for example but like probably not they grow it they do make some wines but like they export like one or two percent of their wines chances are that we have this in the glass today pretty low I would probably go France Italy I would start friends in Italy and like think about what it could be grapewise The thinner skin side, I mean Neveola's thin -skinned. Barbara Dolcetto, Narello is thin -skinned. Definitely missing some. - What about San Givese? Is that a thin -skinned? - San Givese is thin -skinned, yes. But then you see my own bias, where I already had like been like, "I don't feel like this is San Givese." So I just like, it's cross it. Even though it is, formally I have that on the list. It should be on the list. But I will say, I am like notoriously bad at picking out a sensuficy in a lot of... I feel like again there's also some can be lighter but is not like... -Falpolicella? -Yeah, they can be lighter but... -If it's like the regular falpolicello, not the ripasso. -Yeah, the amaroni. Visually, I think that color could be something I've seen in falpolicella. It's interesting, the jewel tones that we use to describe is kind of fun too. -Like I said, both My parents were geologists and I used to like, when I was in engineering, I did a couple of internships in mining. So like, I actually have seen a lot of gems. Like when people said, "Gardic Ruby," I was like, "Yeah, of course." But they're like, "Oh wait, people don't just like, know what that looks like." - Yeah. - So I would say the Acidome, this is medium plus, medium, medium plus. The Tannin is pretty light, which does knock some things off of my list. Let's see. Alcohol, medium, body is medium. It's really not like heavy, a heavy -bodied one. I didn't smell or taste much influence of oak. Like I could see it having a very small amount, like a very small amount of new oak, but it really doesn't taste like new oak to me. Could have used oak, neutral oak. So new oak flavors would be like, usually it's like quite, you get the toasted wood, like the cedarie, baking spices, vanilla bean, vanilla, depending on the type of oak, the American oak, the dill, the vanilla, the coconut, although really only Spain is gonna use American oak. Like if I smell that, I'm already in Spain. - This is where we get into just the nerdy joy that really got me The multi -factorial, you're doing such a multi -factorial deductive analysis. Yes. So it's what kind of barrel from what forest? How toasted, you know, toasted with steams or toasted with fire, you know, God. You have to kind of like reverse engineer the wine in your head. Like how much winemaking went into this, what winemaking, how much winemaking went into this to help you determine where it might have been made. - When people have talked to me about the term retro nasal breathing, or retro nasal, I don't know that anybody broken that down for me, front of the nose. I'd seen that trick done where you kind of suck some air in over the surface of the wind like this. - Yeah, the slurping that you see songs do and stuff. - Oh, that's interesting. That got more of like a bruised plum note. - The plum note comes out more for me and it gets more like tart cherry, black cherry versus, like, it was more, like, dark Luxardo syrupy in the nose for me, like, that heavier, lightened up a bit. -To change the perception of tannin when you do the... -I don't think it would change the perception of tannin to, like, aerate the wine a little bit in the mouth. I feel like the agitation just helps to... Like, you've added energy to it, so you're increasing, like, again, there's a heat in your mouth, but you're also agitating it, which adds energy, which helps volatilize things more. This is only so much energy is to swirl it in the glass. And that does help to, yeah, why do we do that? Why do we swirl the glass? Poetically, we're opening the bouquet. But what that does is to add, you're effectively adding energy to the system, you're adding a bit of energy to the system, and you are volatilizing low levels of usually sulfur compounds, things like hydrogen sulfide actually. Low levels of hydrogen sulfide are gonna mask your ability to smell other things. So when a wine is really closed, that's usually, sometimes it's that. So you need a little energy to help volatilize that, a little agitation to help volatilize that, like this is enough energy typically to do that. - What is volatilization? - Put into a gas state. Oh, Flavor compounds are, they're compounds that are soluble and liquid of the wine, but when you add energy, they will preferentially partition into the gas phase. So when you're talking about a flavor, are you talking about some that can be both smelled and tasted? Usually we're talking about something that you're smelling. Tasting things is like, something tastes sour or it tastes sweet. We don't taste betaine and we smell it. We smell it while we taste other things and that creates raspberry. Like, raspberry also has tartness and it has sweetness and there's other things that we smell as well and all that together creates raspberry. But just putting beta -ionone on the tongue wouldn't create that for you without, if you couldn't smell. Like, beta -ionone has no sweetness. It has no tartness. It's not that. How scared were you of losing your sense of smell with getting COVID? Oh, very. I did one time and I was like, it was terrible. I was like, oh, I was like telling all my friends, I was like, pray for me. Like, what am I gonna do? Like, I spent all this time getting kind of good at this one thing that I can't do right now. One who said, "You don't understand, it's like I was dead." Yeah, you know, but you don't really know how much time you spend just like thinking about smellies, thinking about different smells and like, just like, what am I gonna do with all this knowledge? I can't use it. I'm glad you're back. Yeah, how long did - Did that last for you? - It was out for about six weeks. And just the process of it coming back was like very, very strange, just like having to reacclimate. And even now I feel like I was blind tasting with some friends, we were chatting about this. And I felt like my sense of smell was like, it's there, but it was like, some things were off. Like there were things that people were saying that I was not getting. I feel like I'm less sensitive to Peirazines, actually. - Can you explain peirazines? - Peirazines are like, usually it's like green pepper, green leafy -ish, green pepper is the vein aroma, but things kind of related to that cut green kind of smell. They are varietal aromas in some cases, and then they're also more prevalent in less ripe grapes. - Interesting. So they can give you a hint about the wine making, the wine growing well the wine growing I should tell you about the wine the the wine growing but also the variety the variety I can yeah I can tell you something stylistic about the wine like some wines express that more based on how they're made so like they're you know more stable I think under more reductive winemaking so what are some of the varieties that would contain pyrazines Cabernet Cabernet um Cabernet Sauvignon and Cabernet Franc particularly I feel like I get a lot of it in Cabernet Frank, I think the Carmagnère also gets the Bordeaux varieties. Although not, not that I've had Malbec that has really pyrazines. I've haven't had a lot of single variety poteveur d 'eau to say, but yeah, the other three. That's so interesting. You know, for some reason, I never thought about all the pyrazine grapes being found in Bordeaux. It must have been like some kind of evolutionary. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe I have no idea. Maybe they share interest rate although that's completely speculative. I know people study this and there is definitely a real answer to that I have no idea. Are you getting anything else as the compounds are volatilized? Oh I love understanding that. Honestly on the nose not much more but I'm trying to see if I can get more on the palate. I wouldn't say it's high alcohol but it's medium in the way It's like 20, 24 medium. 20 to 24 medium could be like 13 and a half percent, right? - When you're talking about the palate and you talk about the, like the structure, what are the aspects of structure? - The acidity, the tannin structure, the body, well, I guess body is kind of a catch -all that includes the alcohol and the sugar. Sometimes was the tannin kind of tannin plays into that as well. It kind of tells you about like the like what has been extracted from the grapes. So a lot of tannin will tell you about both extraction and grape variety. So there are thin skin varieties that have a lot of tannins. So like that's where you combine color and tannin. If you have little color but a lot of tannin that narrows it down to a couple of grape varieties. If you have a lot of color and very little tannin also narrows it down, right? If you're medium, medium, then like you have a bit, you could even be some of those other ones that are made in a weird way. So you have a little bit more work to do. You can adjust acidity and winemaking, but like in general, I find that like properly like integrated wines. It's hard to tell whether something's been adjusted. So like acidity will tell you about like whether the typically whether the place is coming from a cooler region or vintage or a warmer region or vintage as grapes ripen as the plant matures acidity is the source of energy that vines metabolize so acidity is consumed as sugar accumulates so sugar goes up acidity goes down so in hotter places you tend to have higher sugar and lower acidity in the grapes so higher sugar produces higher alcohol wines and then in cooler places where you don't reach as much maturity from like full maturity, you might have higher acidity and lower sugar. So lower alcohol wines with more acidity. So like sometimes I talk to people about like, okay, this year you planted your tomatoes in a sunnier spot and they got ripe or faster. Right? That's interesting. I would have thought of sugar as being the fuel or the energy. Now sugar is the product. Oh, sugar is the byproduct, right? Like sugar is what it produces in the end. - How is this perceived as far as the difference between acid and tannin? What is it like for you in your mouth? - Acid for me is like the mouth watering sensation. So just see what the like saliva production is like when you taste, when the wine's in your mouth. And then for the tannin, it's the drying feeling on the, I check like the top of the mouth, the front of the mouth, like the sides of the with the feeling of like oversteep tea and that like that's usually my reference point for Tannen. I guess I drank a lot of oversteep tea. Extracted. The idea of extraction, like if you leave the tea in there longer, then it's more extracted. It's the same thing here. If you do a lot of punchdowns and pumpovers, you are extracting more of those compounds. So of extracting of Tannen compounds? From, I think we should explain the must. What are you extracting from? Like, what are you pumping over in at least red wine making you are doing a fermentation on the skins of the grapes. So when you have your grapes, you put them in whatever fermentation vessel container that you're going to use. And you might do natural fermentation, you might do an inoculated fermentation, but you start the fermentation and fermentation will generate CO2 and it will naturally cause all of these solids in that mass of crushed grapes and juice and grapes to all the solids will sort of push up to the top and that'll create like a cap over the top and if you want to extract stuff from the skins from all of those solids those need to be mixed up in the liquid so you might pump some liquid over it or you might punch down the cap to integrate it. If you were making a cup of tea you would Try to have the tea bag in the water not just Touching and sitting on the top you want the tea bags submerged in the water You don't want it like barely touching the water that would not be an effective way to make tea so when you were talking about extraction you get kind of these two different types of clues right the variety and what Characteristics it has to start with and then the winemaking that you choose so you could have like a high tan and great But a low extraction process or vice versa. That's a lot of factors to kind of pick from. Yeah, definitely. And again, you can always have these grapes grown in non -traditional places. You can blend, which also throws things off, or you can blend again. Non -testable wines are like non -traditional wines, whatever that means these days. When you're doing these competitions, it's not like any wine possible in the world that can be made these people can check. There's some agreed upon– - Curriculum, there's a curriculum. For most exams, there's a curriculum of wines. In competitions, it can be a little more random. Like, we had Swiss Sera in a competition. - Oh, okay. - We couldn't place it anywhere else. - Did you get it? - We did. - You got a Swiss Sera? - We did, we got– - Oh my god, that's amazing. - But to be fair, it was– - Again, it was– - You read the book? We have the book and we went to a co -op in Switzerland and like tried a bunch of wines. We were like, it's possible. It could be this. And we just couldn't put it anywhere else. We couldn't confidently put it anywhere else. Any other place we tried to place this or all were like, if it was there, it would be weird. Like no matter where else we put it, it's weird. And again, you're in a competition in Switzerland. It's possible. If anywhere it would be possible, it's here. So you're, you don't have your team today, I'm putting you in the spot in the middle of the summer by surprise. And of course, the journey, the analysis, we already know a lot of things that are true about this wine, but if you're putting them together in that conclusion moment, like what process are you going through and why is it important and what conclusion would you make? When the tannin was not significant, like I'd say medium, minus kind Conor Tannen level, I you know knock out Nebbiolo a knockout Sandra Vezé a knockout Nerello and that's where I start to wonder what it could be because the Tannins don't feel like Velvety enough to be Pino for me, but depends on where the Pino's from I don't know Nothing jumps out to me, although, like, that black cherry Luxardo feel to me that, like, that type of cherry always makes me think of Italian wines, and so I feel like I might be in the north of Italy. I also feel that I might be mixing up Barbera and Dolcetto, and I am trying to remember which one is which. One of them is higher tannin than the other, and I want the other one, and I can't remember which is the shadow is going to be higher tannin, redder fruit and Barbara darker fruit, lower tannin. Okay. Barbara is on my shortlist then. So if I had three guesses, I guess. Barbara, the Valpolecella, and then a Pino, but do you find any herbs in here? I don't get the herbs on the nose, but maybe a little bit more on the, maybe a little bit on the palette, which could push it more like granache oriented. - Oh my God, there's so many things to pick from. - Could be granache, could be a granache blend. But it doesn't feel super hot, which yeah, I feel like I would want it to have more alcohol, but also again, could be like, I feel like it should be on the list. I actually would rather put granache than Pinot on that list. I had a vaceras the other day that vibed very Pino. That might make sense. I guess I'm deciding if I think it's French or Italian. Despite getting cherry, I don't get much of like a sense of almond, which I usually get for Italian. I often get some almond -y note of some kind. There's no reason that I would get that for all wines, but I also feel like one of my friends is a head And she says like one of her instructors on one taste was like, if you were not sure and you can't put it anywhere, like call it coat drone. Fair, fair. And I kind of feel like that's where I am where I'm like, I don't feel confident that it's Barbera. It's just it could be Italian, it could be light, but it feels like it's not the like once you like run through your process and you don't land somewhere you're like, I guess vibes now. Do you want to decide or do you want me to– - I think I'll go coach around. - Coach around. - Okay. - I'm gonna go coach around. - Coach around. - All right, it has been more than Italy. - You were right. - You were right, you were right. - It has some grippiness that I'm trying to figure out what that is. - Okay, so let me give you this. Your sense of the region was totally right and the factor that you got stuck on was your clue. The thing that you were trying to figure out that that didn't make sense. The structural factor. - Oh, the tannin versus– - That thing that you was tripping you up was the sticking point. - The tannin versus the weight of the tannin felt like it should be different to me. - Yeah. - Is it that I'm not perceiving tannin and I should be, or is it– - Like at the end when you're like, "There's this grippiness, there's this grippiness." - It's like the tannin does accumulate from the pannin. - But I get all the tannin at the front of the mouth, which I'm not super used to. - What is the tannin at the front of the mouth? - What's hard about this for me is there's some really like specific flavor indicators that I will often get, with this grape that I'm not getting quite as much. I have to hunt for them and I didn't find them until like 10 minutes. Like there's a floral characteristic, but it's pretty subtle. There's some kind of sweetment in the mouth, but we've been talking about 20 minutes before I could find it. I could find a little mushroom in there in the nose or maybe that potting soil thing that was first jumping out at you, but I didn't get that earthiness for like a while until it had opened up. And I think the fact that you were feeling the dark fruits kind of initially put you in a box that would have kicked you away from this grave. Oh, interesting. Right. I don't just agree with that analysis. It is more dark fruits. I find some raspberry, but I would expect to find more like kind of a tart cherry pomegranate, not like– - I started to get it on the palate, but in the glass, it was very dark for me. And like the dark fruit initially made me want to be a little bit in nebbiolo, but then I was like, from the palate, it's not. - Do you have any guesses as to vintage? I mean, I guess you kind of got to know the grape. - Do you have to know the grape to guess the vintage? - Okay, it helps. - It helps to have an idea. - Yeah, so like put it together. - Like from color and stuff, three to five. Yeah. Yeah. I would say three to five. It doesn't feel older than that from the nose. It doesn't feel older than that. All right. It is a Nebiolo. Yes. Yeah. But it's a long game Nebiolo. It's a 2022\. You know, I think the hardest thing about Nebiolo right now is the amazing advances that people have made. And you would know way more about this than me about how to actually explain it. But from what I understand, the ripeness levels and picking the grapes at the perfect time and managing a high tanning grape. That science just gone, boom. Some of my favorite Barbaresco and Barolo producers have these labs and they're like really scientific about it. So what's really classically known about Nebiolo is that it's this tan and monster that needs all of these years to develop, but that has transformed so much. So we're here getting a, you know, a 2022, you know, Longing and Ebliollo, the larger region is going to be different from like a Barolo or a Barbarresco, which are going to have maybe really big, like if I'd given you like a Barolo, I think you would have gotten it, you know, I think from the the extraction on a Barolo Barbarresco would be like significantly bigger. I can see how it is this, but it's also like, like you said, everything that like, I guess we're classically taught about styles is changing. and that's like part of, I don't know, the fun of doing this. Learn more about Dr. Allison's work at rachelbeallison .com. What is a corked wine anyway? At that moment when the waiter pours a taste of wine for you and you're supposed to say whether it's okay, are you intimidated or do you know exactly what to do. Dr. Rachel Allison is going to answer all your questions about wine flaws in part two of this interview next week. Thank you so much for listening. Wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Support us on Patreon. Grab the newsletter at MotorDBerry .com and subscribe to the YouTube channel at MotorDBerry to The Travel Show, Motody Berry TV. Music for the show was composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou. Purchase their music at the link in the notes. Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and filmed by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ How to Spot Wine Flaws ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e6-dr-rachel-b-allison-wine-faults-and-flaws/) [ Sicilian Donkey Songs ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e4-michela-musolino-the-revolutionary-donkey/) ### My Father Puts His Book Down URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/my-father-puts-his-book-down/ Last updated: 2026-08-16T06:02:58.000Z When my father puts his book down at the kitchen table, I feel slightly nauseated. “You don’t need to put so much sugar in your coffee. You’ll see that after a while you won’t need it at all.” I think of other times when he gave me advice. Like when I was eight years old. “Look,” he said back then. “God knows I can’t stand people either. Believe me, no one’s looking at you. And who cares if they are.” He was talking about going into the swimming pool up at a bungalow colony somewhere in the Catskills. I didn’t want to go in the pool with my shirt off because I thought I was too fat and people would stare at me, and I didn’t want to go in with a shirt on because it would start to balloon in the water and people would think I was even fatter than I was. “Well, if you don’t go in,” he said. “I will. No skin off my back.” This made me think of my brother who never took his shirt off in the pool because of the acne scars on his back. My father walked down the pool steps. He wasn’t the diving type. He never dove into anything, in life or in water. Once he got in the water, he just dunked his head a few times, spread out his arms and legs like a giant bullfrog, and then swam a few feet face down in the water. When he picked his head up, he saw me still standing there staring at him. “I thought you’d still be there!” He shouted. Everyone at the pool looked at me. “Mitch, don't be an idiot. Get in the pool! We’re paying for it for God’s sake!” Now, I had no choice. I had to leave. I grabbed my towel and my suntan oil, waved to my mother, brother and grandmother, squinting slabs of meat lying on their lounge chairs, and went back to the bungalow. Once I got there, I was completely alone. There was nothing more depressing and humiliating than sitting alone in a mountain bungalow during a sunny day, so I found a broom and swept the floor, mostly moving dust and dead insects back and forth. Bungalow, I remember thinking to myself. What the hell is a bungalow? Was it a Jewish word? What in God’s name was I doing here? Can there really be a God if the most important decision of my existence is whether or not to go swimming in a filthy bug infested swimming pool in some godforsaken bungalow colony some place in the mountains? What even were the Catskills? Jewish mountains? Does God give a shit about any of this, and if so, why? Questions, questions, and no one to answer them. At least not truthfully. My father dismissed any questions with God in them, and my rabbi at Hebrew school threatened to dislocate your thumb or pull your arm out of its socket if you ever questioned what God said and did, like creating the Earth in only six days and resting on the seventh, as if God could actually get tired after only six days, or that the world was only 5,000 years old, which everyone knew was utter nonsense. “But what about dinosaurs? “I asked the rabbi once. “Dinosaurs, shminosaurs,” he said, deciding not to pull my arm out of its socket but to dismissively wave his hand at me instead. After sweeping the bungalow floor for a while, I put my head down on the kitchen table. There were still breadcrumbs there from the morning, when we ate some toast and jelly, not too much because we didn’t want to spoil our appetites for brunch. Brunch was a big deal in this colony, like a town hall meeting of stomachs. There were eggs and pancakes and cereal and bacon and sausages, if requested, and we’d always request it, despite my grandmother getting angry because it would make us look like bad Jews, even though all the other Jews, which was practically everyone else, requested it too. Then we ate and ate like we had never eaten before. I wanted to stop. I really did. But I saw no such inclination on my or anyone else’s part, especially on my father’s. My mother said my father’s stomach was like a bottomless pit. My father’s response: “We’re paying for it, aren’t we?” Occasionally, I looked up at the bowls in the middle of the table and noticed that no matter how much everyone ate from them, they seemed to remain full, as if the more the bungalowites scooped up the food into their plates, the more the bowls would fill up again, like some miracle in the Bible. I imagined my mother writing a note to my teacher in September: “Mitchell won’t be able to attend the first day of school today because he’s still eating.” The meal we really looked forward to though was dinner. Sometimes it seemed like days went by between brunch and dinner. Every family sat on those big bug-stained, splintered Adirondack chairs under the crabapple trees, just sitting there, waiting, as if they had been waiting all their lives, for the clang of the dinner bell. “I wish they’d ring that damn bell already,” I cried. “I know what you mean,” my father said. “My stomach thinks my throat has been cut. But try to be patient. Remember, waiting makes the vacation feel longer.” Who wanted the vacation to be longer? A crab apple fell. I got up, picked it up and threw it at my brother. I didn’t throw it very hard, but he managed to catch it and throw it back at me a lot harder. It hit my arm and hurt so much I started crying. “You want to take each other’s eyes out? Is that what you want?” my mother asked us. “Will that make you happy?” It would certainly pass the time if one of our eyes were taken out, I thought. No doubt we’d have to walk a mile uphill to the only phone booth around, the one with the wasp’s nest inside it, and then wait for an ambulance to come from three towns away. That would pass the time for sure, I thought. But none of that happened, and all I could do now was stare at the tree and see if I could see the crabapples growing, without them noticing me, because I knew if apples caught you looking at them, they’d stop growing completely. Something like a watched pot never boils, except with crabapples. But I knew that was a complete waste of time, so I just looked for the biggest crabapples and imagined how much they would hurt if my brother, whose arms were twice as long as mine, threw them at me. That calmed me down for a while. Dinner did come eventually. In fact, when the dinner bell rang, I forgot for a moment what it was for. A fire? Is the damn bungalow colony on fire? Did I leave the toaster on? Should we have removed all the plugs from the walls before leaving? But then I heard the voice of reason, of unadulterated hunger, cry out: “It’s about time! Let’s go, troops!” And then we all had to help my grandmother, who seemed to have sunk so deeply into her chair, she was hardly visible. “Don’t pull her, Frank,” my mother said. “You’ll pull her arm out of her socket. That’s all we need!” Eventually, we all helped get her up. I grabbed her legs, my brother cradled her neck, my mother her arms, and after a monumental struggle, we extracted from the Adirondack chair, unharmed. She still screamed her head off. “You’re killing me! Help! Someone please help me! They’re killing me!” But no one listened. “I told your mother we should have left her home,” my father grumbled to me on our way into the dining room, my grandmother dragging herself behind us. “Come on, let’s get inside before all the food’s gone,” said my father. “I can’t wait to sink my teeth into some of that brisket.” That night I dreamt that my father was Lon Chaney, Jr. as the Wolfman, that someone at the colony was found dead in the woods with a big piece of their neck bitten off, and my father would be sitting on his chair all innocent looking except for the blood running down the sides of his mouth. “It wasn’t me,” he kept on saying, but I knew it was. Now, 40 years later, I am visiting my parents back in Queens. My father sits at the kitchen table behind one of his colossal tomes that stands up straight and tall, on its own metal stand, as if mocking me with its posture, never slouching with its spine bent like mine was getting more and more each day. When I was seven or eight, around the time we were up at that bungalow colony, I had dreamed about becoming a hunchback like Quasimodo in “The Hunchback of Notre Dame.” I saw that movie 14 times in one week on *Million Dollar Movie,* which repeated movies twice a day for a whole week. Like Quasimodo, I wished I was made of stone. I also had a crush on a girl in my third-grade class who looked just like Esmeralda. When my father read his book at the table, he too seemed to be made of stone. Then again, so did the rest of us. My mother slumped over the kitchen sink washing out the same glass 40 or 50 times because she was thinking of something else, something she had to do but couldn’t remember. Once, she got so distracted, she turned on the hot water by mistake and scalded her hands. My father looked up, but he didn’t get up. I knew it would take a lot more than one of us getting injured for my father to get up from the kitchen table before he finished eating. I always remember his story about the time he was a small boy and went to a steam bath on the Lower East Side of Manhattan with his father and uncle. During lunch in the cafeteria, when they were all eating pickled herring in cream sauce, which my father loved more than anything in the world, my uncle got up to go to the bathroom and slipped on a wet spot on the floor, nearly cracking his skull. “You could hear the crack from where we were sitting,” my father told me. “We thought for sure he was dead, especially when everyone started to gather around him, except me because I was too busy eating my herring. Can you imagine?” he asked me. “Not really,” I said. “I mean that’s how much I loved herring. I mean, I’ll tell you something,” he said to me, “Something I never told anyone.” “What’s that?” I asked, excited that he had actually picked his head up from his book to tell me a secret. “I looked over at my uncle’s plate and actually thought of finishing his herring,” my father said. “I remember thinking, if he’s dead, they’ll just throw it out anyway.” “I guess that made sense.” “Sure, it did. Especially if they were just going to throw it out. I never believed in wasting food, especially pickled herring. I mean there’s nothing I love more in the world than pickled herring.” “That’s for sure!” I exclaimed. “And did your uncle ever recover?” “Oh yeah,” my father said, sounding disappointed. “He had a head like an iron post.” But now, after just a bowl of pea soup, the only soup he can taste anymore, my father suddenly stops reading, removes his book from its metal stand and puts it face down on the table. If my father is willing to put his book down, what will happen next? He looks at me and then at my coffee cup, which is empty but for a lump of sugar at the bottom. “How much sugar did you put in that?” he asks. “A lot.” “Why don’t you try the coffee sometime without sugar?” Did he hear me? Has he had a stroke? Has God spoken to him about the sugar in my coffee cup? Maybe he’s hallucinating. “Are you still hungry?” I ask. “No, not anymore. Isn’t that strange?” “Yes,” I said, feeling very strange myself. When he stood up, I saw how wan and pale his face had become, how his jelly apple physique, the thin legs and pot belly, had disappeared. “Are you going to pick another book?” I asked him. “You’ve got plenty of books left you still haven’t read.” “To be honest, Mitch, I don’t feel much like reading anymore.” I feel slightly nauseated. I have chills. My body is shaking. Is this my father’s last book? I look at it now, lying on its side like a great warrior fallen in battle. It’s a book about Robert Moses, the man I believe was responsible for my father’s road rage. I looked back into my coffee cup and a thousand memories came back to me. The Sunday breakfasts, watching my father read, listening to his comments about books that had nothing to do with me. “My God,” he suddenly said, as if to no one in particular. “If not for Robert Moses, we’d have no highways.” “But we’d still have all those parks,” I dared to say. “Don’t be an idiot, Mitch. If you want to sit in a park, go upstate.” I stare at my coffee. All the way to the bottom, where a lump of undissolved sugar lies. Is this where it ends? Is that everything we were to each other, a lump of undissolved sugar at the bottom of a coffee cup? “Try it next time without the sugar,” he says. “I will. I promise” He laughs kind of halfway uncomfortably, as if he were in both physical and mental pain. “You’ll see. You really don’t need the sugar.” He was right. Since my father died, the more I drink coffee without sugar, the more I like it, and the closer I feel to my father. It was the best advice he ever gave me. --- Mitch Levenberg has published essays and stories in such journals as Fiction, The Common Review, The New Delta Review, Fine Madness, The Saint Ann’s Review, The Assisi Review, and others. “Write Something,” his collection of essays, was published in 2013\. He teaches writing and Literature at St. Francis College. Mitch is a member, along with Modo di Bere founder Rose Thomas Bannister, of the Carroll Street Collective, a writers group that hosts regular public readings at Young Ethel’s, a bar in Park Slope. ### The Story of Amabile di Rosa URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/amabile-di-rosa/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T03:03:50.000Z Never wear new shoes to a wine fair. Thank goodness it was Kachi Izukanne’s first Vinitaly. If the pinch of his new white sneakers hadn’t driven him to find a chair, we’d never have met, and I’d still be a person who’s never been to Nigeria. I would never have dug the flesh out of a bug-like catfish skull over a bowl of pungent pepper soup on the banks of Badagry Creek. I might never have walked the swinging bridges high above the trees at the Lekki Nature Reserve. If Kachi had worn old shoes that day, the sweet wine he’s importing into Africa would have a different story, and a different name. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/RT-s-first-catfish-pepper-soup.JPEG) **Badagry: Rose Thomas reveling over her first bowl of catfish pepper soup* Every spring, the world’s largest wine fair blooms in a permanent fairground on the outskirts of Verona. At Vinitaly, each of Italy’s twenty wine regions gets its own building. Enologists pour one-ounce tastes for journalists and businesspeople. Wineglass washers cleave the crowds, pushing carts stacked with plastic crates of clean and dirty stemware. On four April mornings in Verona, the wine industry emerges from price-gouged hotels, squeezes into shuttle buses, passes through turnstiles and pulls lanyards over well-dressed necks. The name tags hanging from the lanyards differentiate the winemakers, wine buyers, and the press. No matter who you are, Vinitaly is a lot. This year’s fair was my third Vinitaly, which made me something of a pro. After all, I’m so obsessed with Italian wine stories, I started my own media company to do them justice. I was experienced and enthusiastic. I was wearing hiking boots—and still, just two hours in, I was looking for a place to sit down. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Calabrian-Winemakers.jpg) **Vinitaly is a wonderful place to run into friends like Calabrian winemakers Mariangela Parilla of* [**Tenuta del Conte*](https://tenutadelconte.it/en/?ref=mododibere.com) *(far right) and* [**Sergio Arcuri* ](https://www.instagram.com/sergioarcuri%5Fviniartigianali/?ref=mododibere.com)**(second from right, bottom row). RT and Emilia also pictured along with friends and family of Sergio.* If Vinitaly had benches, everyone who forgets to spit would camp out on the benches and sing drinking songs. For better or for worse, the only chairs outside of the packed cafeterias are in the tasting stands. Vinitaly is not an expo in an American convention center, so the “stands” are not plastic tables under branded vinyl tablecloths. They are beautifully designed miniature tasting rooms, or not so miniature, depending on the winery’s budget. You can walk up to a stand and ask to taste, but it’s such a crowded venue that it’s best to taste by appointment. The first time I saw Kachi, he was sitting in a Sicilian tasting stand, long legs stretched out under the table, looking at his phone. He might have been waiting for someone. I sat down. The sales director of the winery approached us. “I’m sorry, these tables are for–” “My friend and I would like to taste with you,” I said. Kachi played along by showing no reaction, as if he had been waiting for me all along. We swirled and sniffed and sipped our wine, then spat it into the spitoon, listening to the story of the Sicilian estate. Since I was pretending we already knew each other, I had to figure out what Kachi was doing at Vinitaly by what he revealed to the sales director. His import company, Trade Depot, had launched several spirits brands. Now they were adding wine to their portfolio. “I’m looking for a sweet wine to import into Nigeria as a private label,” Kachi said. Instead of being open to a potential new business deal, the sales director replied, “Sweet wines don’t sell.” I had to disagree. I sold wine and worked in hospitality in New York City for a decade before switching to writing and education, and I had personally met dozens of consumers asking for more options for still, sweet wines. New York is an influential market. I could only imagine what was happening—or not happening—for sweet wine drinkers elsewhere in the world. I had long felt these customers are being underserved, and that the wine industry is leaving an opportunity on the table by failing to create and market more quality sweet wines. This burning opinion of mine had yet to find a willing ear. After the tasting, Kachi and I walked out of the Sicilian pavilion together. I looked around at the huge buildings full of great bottles at every price point, in every imaginable style, in a country whose wines hold my fascination because of their variety. I could think of a dozen regions to explore for Nigeria. We paused in front of a map of the fairgrounds and turned towards each other to part ways. Instead of saying goodbye, I took a chance. “Do you want me to help you?” I said. Kachi said yes, and a friendship was born. Later that evening, over a Florentine steak, I told Kachi everything I knew about sweet Italian wines. I tore a page from the notebook I carry everywhere and wrote down a list of regions, grapes, and wines he should seek out at the fair. The very next morning, Kachi found a producer who makes beautiful still wines in a zone better known for sparkling styles: Asti, in the northern Italian region of Piemonte. They already had the product available to create sweet red, white and rosato wines for Nigeria (and later Kenya and Ghana). ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Kachi-and-RT-in-Verona.jpg) **Kachi and Rose Thomas in Verona* Seven months later, I landed in Lagos to unbox Amabile di Rosa, a brand whose name means, more or less, “the sweet friendliness of Rose.” I didn’t ask for this homage, though I did suggest “amabile” as a brand name. It really just means *sweet,* a term written on the label of the off-dry bottles Italians enjoy. In my imagination, the name denotes a welcome that sweet wine lovers well deserve. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Rosa-with-Amabile-di-Rosa.jpg) **Rosa unboxing Amabile di Rosa* When legal regulations prevented the use of the technical term “amabile” for a brand name, Kachi named the wine after me. Then his team welcomed me and my creative partner [*Emilia Aghamirzai*](https://www.fatchixinc.com/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=italian-wine-and-nerdy-friendship-brought-me-to-nigeria) to Nigeria, and showed us the time of our sweet lives. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Emilia--Mega--RT-and-Tobore.jpg) **Emilia, videographer Mega, RT and multi-hyphenate talent Tobore, after traveling to Ago-Ajo and Badagry* The airline lost our luggage for a day, so we ate heritage rice and danced to Afrobeat at the Truth Shrine in Surulere wearing white t-shirts from the Shop Rite. We sipped fresh palm wine, the barely-fermented sap grassy and vibrant, from the traditional gourd pitcher called a calabash. Our Surulere adventure, and several others, were curated by [*Lola Pedro*](https://www.instagram.com/pedrosafrica/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=italian-wine-and-nerdy-friendship-brought-me-to-nigeria), a visionary producer of ògógóró. Ògógóró is a heritage palm wine spirit that was severely repressed by colonial authorities. It is distilled from fresh palm wine like the one we tasted from the calabash. Tasting ògógóró with Lola and her many friends was a spiritual experience that I’ll be writing quite a bit more about. [*Lola Pedro pouring palm wine from a calabash at Ofadaboy*](https://www.instagram.com/ofadaboy?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fweb%5Fbutton%5Fshare%5Fsheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==) We also spent time with the team at [*Bature*](https://www.baturebrewery.com/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=italian-wine-and-nerdy-friendship-brought-me-to-nigeria), Nigeria’s only craft brewery. Their talented brewers are producing superlative beers with the complex and vivacious quality I came to expect from everything I ate or drank in Lagos State. Nigerians love stout: Kachi is the one who first explained to me that the country has a totally different version of Guinness than the one that I knew. Bature’s stout was the best I’ve ever tasted, and I was inspired by their use of indigenous grains in all of the beers they make. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Emilia-Drinking-Bature-Beer.jpg) **Emilia drinking Bature’s Founders Pale Ale* As we moved around Lagos with our friends Tobore, Abel, Michael, Mega, and the rest of Kachi’s team, this was my first impression of public life: initial interactions are transactional, everyone’s got side hustles, and visitors don’t always know the intense banter isn’t exactly conflict. Basically, not unlike New York. Before our trip, I took several Yoruba lessons in Brooklyn with the Nigerian painter [*Doba Afolabi.*](https://zenithgallery.com/artists/doba-afolabi/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=italian-wine-and-nerdy-friendship-brought-me-to-nigeria) Doba made a point to equip me with vocabulary for paying for things myself, in cash, in the local currency. I received humid stacks of naira for my dollars from the money traders in long tunics at the Eko Hotel, official exchange rate 1,641 to one. I personally paid a guy $15,000 naira to stop using a chainsaw on a palm tree so we could do some filming. In Brooklyn, that would have cost a lot more than ten bucks: I might have had to negotiate with a co-op board. I was pleased with my attempt to participate directly in the haggling of the Lagos streets, but Doba’s nephew Abel, who always has my back, shook his head that I’d been overcharged. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Abel-and-Emilia-at-Lekki-Conservation-Center.jpg) **Abel Akinpelu with Emilia at Lekki Conservation Centre. Abel is our rock!* I enjoyed seeing the commerce happening in the street itself, varied commodities carried through traffic on people’s heads.. One day, I forgot my hat. New hats tend to find me, and Lagos was no exception. Michael, our driver, stuck his hand out the car window and bought me a new hat from a guy in the road. I wore it to ride a horse on the beach. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/RT-on-a-horse-in-nigeria.jpg) **Rose Thomas riding a horse on the beach in Lagos* I did not realize that the “canopy walk” at the [*Lekki Conservation Centre*](https://ncfnigeria.org/?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAaZ87NN27iHXY9GxKA%5FRK7JyZOYa7ThinjP1jeLv4WrKd5fddWOno6W5UTM%5Faem%5F-xYtsJMTID3mo7uM1p6qhQ&utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=italian-wine-and-nerdy-friendship-brought-me-to-nigeria) meant climbing a network of swinging bridges separated by platforms that rose above high above the treetops. Antimalarial pills, which I was instructed to continue taking for a while after my trip, feature intense dreams as a side effect. For days on end, I dreamed of great feats at spectacular heights. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Emilia-and-RT-on-the-canopy-walk.jpg) **Emilia and RT on the canopy walk* The malarone recognized our bold maneuvers. Emilia filmed Nigeria while sticking out of a sunroof, hanging off the back of a motorbike, holding onto the gunwale of a tiny motorboat. A power surge fried our plug adapter in a spray of festive sparks. The humidity of the Lagos lagoon made our equipment swell: incandescent with sweat, Emilia was briefly trapped inside the E-Z rig, a contraption that dangles her camera from a plastic arm that sticks out over her head. I tried to speak local languages, made various faux pas, and faced my greatest fear: singing karaoke. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Emilia-filming-Lagos.JPEG) **Emilia filming Lagos* Kachi took us to see a street vendor and ordered suya: two types of beef, fatty and lean, strung on wooden skewers, grilled over coals, fried in a pot of oil, then grilled again, dusted with crushed peanuts and secret spices, stripped from the skewers, chopped with chunky red onions and puffy sweet white bread, rolled in a newspaper, carried away then spread out and speared on toothpicks to pair with a crisp beer–I’m a big fan of [*Trophy*](https://www.instagram.com/p/DAJ1BUxysNq/?hl=en&img%5Findex=4&utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=italian-wine-and-nerdy-friendship-brought-me-to-nigeria)–or, now that it’s arrived in Nigeria, a glass of lightly chilled [*Amabile di Rosa* ](https://www.instagram.com/amabiledirosa/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fweb%5Fbutton%5Fshare%5Fsheet)red. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Suya.JPEG) **Kachi, RT and Emilia enjoying suya* I’m comfortable declaring the meal inside that newspaper as the best thing I’ve ever eaten in my life. The complex floral notes of my Piemontese wines danced and sang with the suya, with an ecstatic stew of viscous okra with huge pink prawns, with [*utazi*](https://www.instagram.com/utazing?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fweb%5Fbutton%5Fshare%5Fsheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==), an herb whose flavors I’ll try to describe as somewhere between lemongrass and tarragon. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Utazi.JPEG) [**Utazi, at a wonderful restaurant of the same name*](https://www.instagram.com/utazing?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fweb%5Fbutton%5Fshare%5Fsheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==) Emilia and I practiced scooping bites of stew with little patties of fufu made from pounded yam, meaning that the flour used to cook it was pounded by hand with heavy stones rather than pulverized by machines. When pounded yam wasn’t immediately available, Kachi called a guy. I’m so glad we got to experience the difference in texture for ourselves so we could understand why this traditional fufu is so prized. Eating soup with our hands was new for us. Rather than ask for a million napkins, we tried to get used to the sensation of having our inexperienced fingers slick with sauce. Welcomed with such a vivid cuisine, to revel was the only possible response. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Rosa-and-Kachi-in-Lagos-with-Amabile-1.jpg) **RT - “Rosa” - drinking Amabile di Rosa in Lagos* I knew nothing about Nigerian food when I met Kachi–though some friends I made at Buka, a Nigerian [*restaurant*](https://www.bukanewyork.com/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=italian-wine-and-nerdy-friendship-brought-me-to-nigeria) in Brooklyn, helped me immensely with my research before this trip. After my first experience dining in Africa, I am more certain than ever that off-dry riesling, as perfect as it is for many spicy foods, cannot remain the only suggestion to pair with every spiced cuisine on the globe. The variety of Italian indigenous wine grapes is ideally suited to this wine and food pairing puzzle. Bringing a world of flavors together only takes imagination, ingenuity and friendship. *Photos courtesy of Rose Thomas* ### ▷S3E4 The Revolutionary Donkey: Sicilian Folk Music History with Michela Musolino URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e4-michela-musolino-the-revolutionary-donkey/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T04:33:11.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-it/s3e2/michela-musolino-asino) You can wash a donkey’s head, but you’ll waste your water, your soap, and your time. If you have a woman, a drum, and a duck, you have a revolution. You’ve got more horns than a chariot full of snails. Do you want to know what these sayings mean? Do you think donkeys are cute? Do you like history, music or Sicily? This episode is for you! The conversation between Modo di Bere host Rose Thomas and Sicilian American singer and folklorist Michela Musolino is centered around two southern Italian folk songs about donkeys: “U sceccu,” and “Lu sciccareddu,” also known as “Sciccareddu lu me cori.” Learn more about the folk poet Salvatore Adelfio and the text he wrote about the donkey as a symbol of the contadino during the 1848 Bread Revolution in Sicily, and purchase the recording of Michela singing Salvatore’s text, which her friend Rocco Pollina set to music in 1979, at the link below. [https://michelamusolino.com/track/1413193/u-sceccu ](https://michelamusolino.com/track/1413193/u-sceccu?ref=mododibere.com) Become a Patreon supporter at any level to hear a bonus recording from Michela of the famous southern Italian tune about a man who loved his donkey just a little more than he loved his wife. [patreon.com/mododibere](http://patreon.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) [ ](http://patreon.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com)If you’re in the market for a Christmas album, for yourself or as a gift, I must recommend Michela’s album La Notti Triunfanti: [https://michelamusolino.com/store](https://michelamusolino.com/store?ref=mododibere.com) Check out Season 1 Episode 7 of this podcast to hear more about Michela’s musical work. [Wine Makes Blood: Sicilian-American Folksinger Michela Musolino](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-en/s1e7/michela-musolino) Thank you Carmen for making the donkey sound, thanks to Rocco, Luigi and Raquel for their sayings videos, and a big thanks to Roberto di Filippo (from [Season 1 Episode 5](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-en/s1e5/roberto-di-filippo)) for inspiring this episode with his love and respect for the donkey. > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cq6qXh8sBlB/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cq6qXh8sBlB/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript This episode features strong drinks as well as strong language. In this song, the donkey throws himself down on the ground and he refuses to work and he cries out and he says a very famous succinct saying which is Usazio un criri aludiyuno, which means the man who has enough to eat never understands the man who is starving. Mmm. Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I’m your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. Today is a very special episode that's all about donkeys, with returning guest Michela Mussolino. Michela is a Sicilian -American singer and folklorist. You can hear a lot more of her music and learn more about her work by tuning in to season one episode seven of this podcast. You can listen to both this episode and Michela's prior interview in Italian. Search for the podcast Mododibere Italiano. You can also watch this episode in both languages on the new YouTube channel for the podcast, youtube .com / @mododiberepodcast. Please go to MichelaMusolino.com and purchase some of her recordings, which make a fantastic gift. She has a lovely Christmas album. Today we have Michela Musolino, who is back. Welcome back, Michela. - It's nice to be here. - And this is a very special episode because it is all about donkeys. - Yay. - If you remember the episode "Horse Crazy" with Roberto de Filippo, who talked about bringing back traditional horse plowed farming to Umbria and also practicing this in Romania, I posted some videos of Roberto in my apartment talking about how much he loves horses and how much he really loves donkeys. And Michela wrote to me, we had just published a beautiful interview with Michela called Wine Mixed Blood, so you can look back and listen to this and hear Michela talking about her folk songs and this amazing folkloric multi -instrumental background. And Michela wrote to me and said, "Oh my goodness, I love Donkeys and Sicily loves Donkeys and we have to talk about Donkeys." That's exactly what happened. Thank you for supporting the show through Patreon. Really couldn't do it without you. It means the world to me. And thank you. What are we going to be talking about today? I saw the interview with Roberto about the donkeys. I was so excited because as you mentioned, we have such a strong connection, Sicilian culture with the donkey. And one of the songs that's in heavy rotation in my repertoire is called "Lucecu." And it's a song about a donkey, obviously. "Lucecu" is one of the dialect words in Sicily for donkey. And it's a pretty cool song. It actually comes from a poem from 1848, when There was a lot of poverty, a lot of problems in Sicily, a lot of social problems. And it was right before the revolution broke out in Sicily, what they call the bread uprisings of 1848\. So this was a poem by somebody named Salvatore Adelfio. And he was trying to kind of describe what was happening at the time. And he used this poem, he's the metaphor of the donkey. So In this poem, the donkey is working, and he's working for the boss, for the patron, the patron. In Italian, we say patroni, we say patroni in Sicilian. The donkey just asks him, he says, please, I'm starving. Could you just be, for the love of God, could you just give me a little crust of bread to eat? And the boss says, why should I feed you? You're a donkey. And even if I feed you, you're still gonna be starving. So the song goes on and in this song, the donkey throws himself down on the ground and he refuses to work. And he cries out and he says a very famous this thing saying which is (speaks in foreign language) which means the man who has enough to eat never understands the man who is starving. And that's how that song ends. Poma is from an old tradition. The song was actually it was made into a song by friends of mine but somebody they did it way back in 1979 before I ever even knew who they were my my friend Rocco Paulina who's a Sicilian folk musician and it's a beautiful song because it tells us about history it tells us about human nature it tells us you know the struggle between the haves and the have -nots and it it shows how it's just you know in a moment you could ask somebody please you know just help me No, just, you know, have pity on me. Just, you know, help me, you know? And how we can be kind to each other, but sometimes, you know, the way history is, we don't. But what's really interesting about this song is that there's another song that is very traditional in Sicilian focus. This isn't so traditional. This is kind of one of those songs that you dig up and you introduce and people are like, "Wow, I didn't know this existed in the song." You know, I was thinking about the lyrics today too, the lyrics of Usheko. I tend to focus on the punchline of that song, if you will, or the the moral of that, where we say "Usatsu un criere a ludi uno," which is, you know, the one who has enough to eat, never understands the one who's starving. But I was looking at the lyrics a little earlier today, and there's one part that, when I sing it, I always, I always love to see this metaphor in my head. There's another part of the lyrics where they say "La shira in mano di lo (speaking in foreign language) which means the candle in the hand of the sacristan, it melts just like the snow on the field. And it's a metaphor to try to tell us about how fleeting time is. And when we sing that, the donkey's getting ready to ask, like, just cut me a break. You know, we don't have a lot of time. "Can you just do me this small kindness?" 'Cause he says, "For the love of God, "just give me like a little crust of bread to eat." And I thought about that before I'm like, "Wow, that's even more mind blowing "than the phrase at the end we expect, "the moral of the story." Just with the magic of these sayings and what this poor donkey is saying, right? He's showing us that time is fleeting. And in just an instant, you can be really good to somebody. And you can see somebody's life in an instant. So the donkeys are in these songs anyway, donkeys, this song, the donkeys pretty wise too. So we got to play this song. I'm going to play this song for everybody now in the Sicilian language performed by you by Mikayla Mussolino. C 'è tua vezzo ad aspettare panni Che non l 'ho pettito, lo fu dia Paggioni a nomo di lì cristiane C 'è disse qualche tozzo, nivoria Ascire al mano di l 'Isaquistane, sguacchia come la nive alla campia Tu fai le coste, l 'aeroposto è sane, penso un momento a ristorare la mia Rispose tipo un cori, lo patrioni, se fosse pacchia, tavi di acconcesso Mangiare Ma caro è un saputo, ma di un pane non ci trovo nessun Ti runghi un colzotilo, vasti i runi, ma l 'opeti tutto sempre lo stesso L 'usce colp' un portuno, si corpente radisce Non si runghi un colzotilo, vasti i runi, ma l 'opeti tutto sempre lo stesso \[Musica\] Oh, Michaela, I love that song, and it's such a great tune, and you sing it so beautifully. - Oh, thank you. - I can feel your love. I can feel your love for the donkey. I would love for you to actually, can you read us the lyrics in English to the song? - Real quick funny story about the song. The first time I ever heard the song, a friend of mine, Umberto Leon, played it for me, and I just, he was playing a whole bunch of traditional songs for me. So I just thought it was a traditional song. Well, it turns out, as I said, the lyrics are traditional, but the melody was written by our mutual friend, Rocco Polina. And it was like a surprise to me. I think Rocco's wife was like, when I was talking, I was thinking about recording. She was, oh, that's nice. I'm glad you're recording one of Rocco's songs. I'm like, what do you mean? It's a traditional song. She's like, no, she wrote the music for us. I was like, oh, OK. But when I did this album, we had them translated from Sicilian into Italian, into English. So everybody could, everybody, there's no excuse. Everybody could know what we were saying. The lyrics are, "One day a donkey was starving while he was carrying bread. So he said, 'Dear master, for God's sake, I'd like to have a piece of bread.' And then we say, 'Candles melt in a sacriestine's hands like snow on the fields. And you are a hailing, hearty man. Think of my relief for one moment.' The master sincerely answered. Even if it had been strife, I would have given you a sackful. But it makes no sense for me to give you any bread. Even if I give you a piece of bread, your hunger will still remain the same. But the donkey was defiant. It stretched out on the ground and said, "The man who has eaten enough will never believe the man who is starving." Tell me about these bread uprisings. That sounds like a pretty important historical event. Pretty much they were taxing everything and they even started to text the bread so people couldn't afford it anymore. Basically, people wanted to eat and this was 1848 when revolution started to break out all around Europe, but the real revolution actually started in Palermo. I believe there was a woman involved. I don't have the exact history of it, but there's always usually a woman. There's even a saying in Sicilian, "na fimina nalca e (speaks in foreign language) All you need is a woman and drum and a duck and before you know it, you have a revolution. (laughs) - That's a fantastic saying for Moto G Parade. I am gonna commit that to memory. Thank you. (laughs) Applicable to many situations. - It was a period of great unrest. Salvatore Adolf, he was a folk poet and he actually participated directly in his uprising. So this was kind of his way of creating some kind of anthem to let people know of the situation during that time. But as I said, it was 1840, it was a rough time. It was a time when there was a lot of political upheaval all throughout Europe. You know, it was a strange time in Southern Italy 'cause you were getting ready for the unification, right? The unification would happen about 12 years later. One of the reasons that the unification was able to come through or, you know, that God, he was able to come through and do what he did. And I might be, I might be pontificating at this moment, but I'm sure there's a lot of people who backed me up with facts here. Because you had so much unrest and there was a lot of coordinated unrest coming through in the years prior to the unification. So there was this almost this intentional instability was being sown. And that made things so much easier when the pimontes, they could come come in and destroy everything and take over. It was almost as if unrest was kind of a concerted effort to make unrest and to disturb, to make social upheaval. And of course, who suffers, but the poor, the Contadino, the farmer, they're the ones that are, the working man is the one that will suffer. - And is, how do you say donkey in Sicilian? - We would say, either you could say, (speaking in foreign language) and there, (speaking in foreign language) There's a legend, I don't know how true it is, but there is a legend supposedly that it comes from the word shik, like the Arab shik, because when the Arabs had occupied Sicily, they made it, you couldn't ride, I believe you couldn't ride a horse and you couldn't be armed. You couldn't be armed, you couldn't ride a horse or you couldn't do both at the same time or you couldn't do one or the other both. So, when They were finally, when they were routed, they went after all the horses. The Sicilians went after all the horses. And the Arabs brought in more horses on ships. And the ships got wrecked, and the only ship that made it through was the ship that held the donkeys. So they had to ride the donkeys. - But now I don't know if that's true or not. - Well, bad news is a story. - I really don't know if that's true. - It's like a legend floating around. - Yeah. - But there's also the Sheik, who is very similar to the Turkish word for Dunke, so there's that too. I love this story because they're also in Italian grape names. So many different possible etymologies, which is a really fun thing to untangle all the different versions, but either way, there's always so much rich history going back. I love the text that you sent me with the song that we played because you had the Sicilian and the Italian and the English words, and without taking us through the entire thing, I think this is a lovely example to dip back into that Sicilian language, and maybe could you pick a few lines and show us how the words sound so different from Italian to Sicilian. The part about the candle, right? La sciera. Yeah. What are you talking about that's holding the candle? Can you explain that to me? He's Even an image, like a picture, so he says, "The candle in the hand of the sacristan," you know, "the candle in the hand of the priest," it melts as quickly as the snow in the field. So think about it. How often does it snow, even in the mountains, and it says, "The snow doesn't last that longer." If it does snow, typically the snow would, unless you're up in the mountains, the snow wouldn't last very long. It'd be very fleeting. And it's saying, "Imagine a candle," and I said, "Think of a sacristan with big meaty hands. He's got these little tiny candles, so the candle's not only burning, but his hands are probably melting the wax as well at the same time. I'm wondering if you can take a stanza and read us the Italian and the Sicilian back -to -back, and then just talk to us a little bit about some of those sounds and word endings and show us the difference between the local language and the Italian. (speaking in foreign language) And it's the same to be (speaking in foreign language) So, in Italian, you know, they have this elegance where they can, you know, you can make the eleison between the object, the direct object, and the word. You can make it all one sound, "a ristorarmi," but "a ristorare a mia," and to say we're going to leave it apart. We're going to say, "You have to restore it to me," "la shira," instead of "la cerra," "la shira," we'll be the candle, "manu," again, we make an elazon in my hand instead of an inmano, inmano in one word. Here's one we talked about and we mentioned this, this kind of sound came up before we're talking about wife. Moghera, moghera, moghera in Sicilian. Moghie. So you hear the G more in Sicilian. In Italian when Italian, when you have the GL that diphthong, the more it becomes a double G with an H in it. Well, that's kind of hard for people. Maybe everyone should learn Sicilian instead. Yeah, right. And then, and we say squaglia in Italian. It's a scioglia, excuse me, scioglia in Italian. A squaglia to melt in dialects. So we had that. So Yeah, it becomes "guh, guh," a double G. I can't even make the sound anymore. - I've learned some sayings from people from local parts of Sicily. A lot of times when they write them down for me in my little notebook, I feel like I see some things that I see a little bit in Sardo. Also from Sardinia, I see lots of D's and U's. Could you talk to me about those endings? I feel like every word ends in a U. Is that, and is that a kind of a good hint that you might be looking? - Kind of, instead of an O, there's a U. Yeah, very, very rare you see a Sicilian word end in an O. It's usually a U or an I even. And like E's become I, you almost never see a word end in an E, it would end in an I instead. The double D in Sicilian, would it be, in Italian it would be double L. So bella, Ooh. Yeah. It sounds like a J almost, like a D, J or a D, G. Here's the thing. In certain parts of Sicily, it's a very hard D, bedra. In other parts, there's that G and that G gets bedra, and there's almost an R in it. Bedra. It depends where you are in Sicily. Campanella, double L, campanella, campanella in in Sicily and Bel, so it said double L becomes the D. When my daughter was little, I wanted her to speak Italian with ease. I had to go, I had to solve the code, break the code that my family was speaking in code and I had to study Italian and I was so determined I got a degree in Italian language. But I didn't want my daughter to have to go through that. I wanted her to be able to learn as a child and my former husband was from Italy, so I said, "This is what we're going to do. When we have kids, we're not going to speak them in English for the first couple years." Because everywhere we go, in English, you know, they'll be playing with the kids next door, they'll be speaking in English, but at home, we'll speak Italian, and they'll speak Italian to their grandparents. So my daughter's first words were in Italian, and she would say things, and I was not speaking to her in dialect. I was speaking to her in Italian. my former husband, her dad was speaking to her in Italian. But she would come up with words, she would respond with dialect. So I wondered if dialect became, we speak in dialect because maybe there's a dialect sound instead of a developed language, is it more of a natural sound? Like it was the double D's for her were really natural. And she would, words that should have been in Italian like L word, double L word, she would say in with double D's very easily. And I thought that was interesting. - Was she hanging out with your, with her grandparents and everything? - My grandparents taught her, but I don't think she got that much dialect. I think she got more Italian in dialect. It just seemed like it was more natural for her to respond in these, and even like the word for grandpa in dialect is tata, tata, some people say tata, non -nasami tata, tata, Tata, that came out before anything, that word. And I thought that was like, wait a minute, we never referred to my father or my father as Tata. It was always, no, no, no, no, no. But she came up with, I was like, how does she know this stuff? So I'm not sure if it's a linguistic thing and it's just easier or is there something going on around in the ether? And this kid was like, she had her little antennas out and she's picking this up from her ancestors. I don't know what it is. Well, there's a lot of Sicilian folk rhythms going around in your house. So maybe maybe maybe she was just talking to your drum when you weren't looking, you know. Yeah, but I wasn't even I don't even know if I was even making music that much. I don't even know. I don't know what it was. It was just fascinating when she was a baby. I was like, this is something that, you know, I'd love to talk to linguists about this is are there certain sounds that we make because they're more musical to us or are they It sounds, I don't know. - I love the thought of dialects versus the kind of wider used language as having a certain musicality. When people are talking about Italian, they say, oh, what a beautiful musical language about Italian. And then it's like, well, you haven't seen anything until you hear some of these dialects. Of course, all the dialects are so different. And sometimes they're not even mutually intelligible one village to the next, which is Just an incredible amount of diversity. So to come back to donkeys for a second I wanted to share with you and if I can find some recordings I will to back these these up, but I have learned some sayings in dialect and in Italian About the donkey not from Sicily, but from some different regions So one of my favorites that I learned from my friend Rocco from Lazio So to wash the head to the donkey, you lose water, soap and time. So to wash a donkey's head, you can wash a donkey's head, but You can waste your water, your soap, and your time. I love it. That's great. Of course, we also heard if you go to the Moto D Berry social media and you look for the videos of Roberto de Filippo, you know, he has his own thoughts about like, why are we seeming to the donkey? It's not that they're stubborn. It's actually that they're smart. Smart. And he is a very funny video about this. They say you are stupid like a donkey, but it is wrong, in reality the donkey is smarter than an horse. If you are a good horse trainer, you can ride a horse and you can push the horse. You are on the horse, you can push him to jump down from a cliff to die. Don't try to do that with a donkey, because he will never do that. So who is the smarter horse or donkey? I don't know why we are talking about the donkiness so bad way. I love them. They are really noisy but they are also smart and also cute. Thank you Roberto. My daughter when she was little she we actually got to visit friends of ours they live in live in North Carolina but they have farm in Virginia, um, and they raised miniatures to sleep in donkeys. So when she was little, they had a little tiny saddle. She could ride the donkeys. Oh, I need a picture somewhere. I do. Somewhere. I have this adorable picture of her like playing with the donkeys when she's little, little. We were in Sicily one summer and her dear friend, my, my friend's daughter, she was in a question and she said, come with me to the manager. Come on. Let's, let's go. So I told my daughter, she's gonna love this. Well, she was not really happy. And she didn't want to go back the next day. So I don't want to go back. I'm like, I don't understand. She rides donkeys with. So another friend of ours who's a farmer in Sicily, and he raises donkeys, and he raises the big donkeys. He said, of course, she doesn't want to be around horses. Donkeys have a sweet nature. She would rather be around that. And I, I didn't realize, you know, he said, think about it, horses have a very different, you know, we don't think tend to, we don't, you know, it's an animal. It's a work we don't really tend to think that they have a nature, they have a personality. He's like, yeah, there's a, there's a big difference in the personality. And she really doesn't, you know, she picks that up. She really doesn't want to be around something that's so high strong and can be kind of fierce, you know, but donkeys are much, much sweeter. So that kind of put things in perspective. I can still remember him like saying like, wow, you should know this. I mean, well, how would I know this? Like I don't raise them. They're also kind of fuzzy. I saw some donkeys when I was in Italy and they just a little fuzzy around the ears and I just we would see them driving by on the road and there was some at the agriturismo where where we were staying in Lombardia. They're a very, very sweet the donkeys. Yeah, they are. They look I like I think the fuzz makes them look cute, the little little fuzz around the ears. Yeah, they're awfully cute. But there's another song that's very, very well known in Sicilian folklore, and it's "Ucicoretto mio" or "Ucicoretto di Lume Cori," my little, my little donkey or little donkey of my heart. Oh. There's a version they sing in Calabria, and this is a really well -known song. And in this song, there is always somebody in the band or whoever's singing it or somebody there when and the band plays this song. Some guy always knows how to make the sound of a donkey. Because the way the verses are structured is that there's a pause and you hear the donkey bray. And that's where somebody would like pipe up. So what would happen in my shows, I would start talking about the donkey. I'm gonna sing a song, I'm gonna sing a song about a donkey. And there's usually like some, couple of old guys in the audience would get really excited 'cause they were waiting for somebody in the band to start braying like a donkey. And I said, it's not going to happen here. It's a different song. But actually, one time, I will tell you one time in a concert, I said, we don't even have anybody in the band that could, I said, none of my musicians know how to make that sound. And one of the guys in the audience says, I can, I said, can you really? So he got up on stage and he made the donkey noise. He braided like a donkey. So we gave him, we had these cute little instruments that a friend of mine made, the little Sicilian instruments. And we gave him a gift and a CD. We thanked him for coming up on stage. So that's always how those songs are tied in. But you need to know about the other song, the song where they bray like a donkey. In it, the the singer keeps talking about his beautiful little donkey, his beautiful little donkey. And I love my donkey, but they killed my donkey. And now he's distraught. And he says, you know, when my wife died, I cried, but I wasn't, I didn't really have sorrow in my heart. But when my donkey died, Oh my God. Yeah. Well, here's why. And here's why a donkey is so important, right? And even why did Salvatore Adelfio use a donkey as a metaphor for the peasant, for the contadino, for the working man? Why? Why? Because the donkey was crucial for survival in Sicily. If you had a donkey, you could live, you could farm, you could support your family, you could feed your family, and why would they use a donkey is a metaphor for the peasant. Well, the donkey could do backbreaking work. Dunkeys are very strong and they can do incredible work. They don't complain, they just keep working. They don't stop. Dunkeys can go for long periods without stopping to drink water. They can work in incredible heat. Dunkeys can go for long periods without food. So there's somebody that can pretty much subsist on almost nothing, just a little bit of grass and do this backbreaking work and just survive. So that was used as a metaphor for the peasant. And the Contadino, we say the farmer, the working man. And also the donkeys, why would the little guy in the song be inconsolable? Well, you can always find another wife, right? But if you're a donkey, if you don't have a donkey, you can't maintain a wife. You can't have kids. You can't have a family. So the donkey was always first. Crucial, it to this, to this existence once upon a time, when we were an agrarian society. Donkeys before Emolio. Yeah, right? Primo Luceco poi la moglie. That's why I just love these songs so much because, you know, they're fun, you know, they're fun songs or they make you think about history. But the reality is they show a way that we live that we tend to forget, you know, how we had, you know, important it was to have these these how crucial it was to have something like this to have these little these animal theorists. So I'm definitely gonna have to find a little donkey sound effect or possibly just interview someone in the audience to see if they can make the donkey sound. Oh we can find that. I can find that for you. Oh yes. Don't worry about that. Okay all right send me send me the donkey song. (singing in foreign language) (squeaking) - Actually what we did one time, we did do this song a couple of times and what we used to do is, we used to have our clarinet player just like make some sounds on the clarinet. It wasn't as good as a donkey break. - You just gotta go, "Babba." - Yeah, it wasn't as good, trust me, it wasn't as good. - Can you do it? - No, I'm not gonna do it. (laughing) - All right, all right, all right. - You did wear the donkey earrings, though. - I did, I have– - Oh, let me see. - I have his pair of earrings, they come from, they're from Palermo, I have to remember the name of this drawer, it just went out of my head. - You can send it to me, we can put it in the show notes. - I will definitely, and they were handmade in Sicily, and I brought them back, I can't get my light off now, I brought them back from my daughter, they're actually my She's very kind to me and she looks, 'cause I let her wear my stuff and she lets me wear her stuff. So there's a little, I don't know if you could see it, there's a little, I got it, how close can I get? 'Cause I'm like, there's a little donkey on here. - Oh my goodness. - A little donkey. - Those are amazing. - And I love them. I love them and that's, this one has, I believe this one has a babalooch. Maybe that's another show we have to do. - What's a babalooch? - A snail, a loomaka, babalooch. - Babalooch. I learned a saying from Palermo, the phrase translated to you have more horns than a chariot full of snails. And I think it used that word, right? And he explained to me that like in many cultures, the horns are the symbol of a cuckold, like a guy who's somebody sleeping with his wife, but that in this part of Sicily, it meant kind of like a badass. I don't know, it just, it means the person's a badass. He kind of did like the horns, like the rock star horns. I just had this image though of, I think he meant like cart. He said chariot. So you have more horns than a chariot full of snails. And I'm just imagining a chariot full of snails. Like, somebody needs to put this on a t -shirt. I was gonna say, this would be a great picture. Like, you could sell like, really colorful, kind of like the Grateful Dead, you know? So I have a friend here who works with Roko actually, who taught me the donkey saying he's from Katania. And I told him about the saying and I said, "Oh, I learned a Sicilian saying, can you show it to me?" First of all, he had no idea, which I should have known 'cause they're totally far away from each other. He said, "That's not a positive thing." And then I met a guy from Puerto Rico, but he was talking about one part of Central America. It's the Cabrón. It's like an insult, and it means like a cuckold, like someone sleeping with your wife. You're a sucker or something. But then he was like, but in this other country, Cabrón means like a badass. And I was like, oh, I knew it. After the guy from Catania was like, that's totally wrong. I was doubting my comprehension of this conversation. but then I found out there's another example. - Cabrón is the word for bastard, but in Puerto Rico, you could be like, "¿Cú eres cabrón, you're a bastard?" Or, "Este está bien cabrón." This is the shit. "Este está bien cabrón." "Tú debes bien cabrona." You look amazing. So guys, if anyone knows a reverse cuckold badass comment from somewhere else in the world, please you can send me a message. We want to know about this category of sayings. I also have been collecting, it's a great icebreaker, I will sometimes ask what do you say when you have a hangover, when you've had too much to drink the night before. Now this is interesting to me because I've noticed in Italian that sometimes Italian dialects, that sometimes the word for hangover is the same word for drunk. I've had a lot of fun with this because a lot of times the phrases involve animals. We could do a whole episode about hangover sayings, not just from Italy, but my favorite, the king of all of these, and I'm gonna play a recording here because I know I have it. I met some wonderful, jolly, angelic, in a sense, but very down -to -earth farmers from Piedmontet, who are going and saving from obscurity and possible extinction, the Nashutuk Grape. It's a white grape, and it makes this fascinating, textured, delicious, savory wine. And I had an absolute blast with them at Veenitli last year, and again, this year, I saw them. Instead of the donkey carrying you, when you've had too much to drink the night before, you are carrying the donkey. That's what it means. I'm such a bad state. It's like I've got a donkey that I'm carrying around. So it's a little reversal and I thought that was really funny. Do you have anything else to share with us about donkeys in Sicily or elsewhere in your life? Well, this is, I don't know how important this is to show, but it's something sweet that happened in my life. We had, You used to have a garden center where I used to live in Northern New Jersey and they had a farm, you know, they had farm animals and they encouraged all the kids to go play with the farm animals and that was open to the public. So anytime we had to get, you know, buy your plants, buy your mulch, buy whatever you need, your garden tools and then put it in the car and then you walk around to the back and the kids could play with the animals. So my daughter loved it because they had miniature Sicilian donkeys. Oh, my God. And you could feed them. It was so much fun. It was beautiful. Well, years go by and one of my musicians calls me says, Listen, I got this gig. If you want to do it, it's for this couple. They're they're making the 50th wedding. There's Sicilian. They used to have a folk group. And they want to have do want to have music. I'm good friends with their son -in -law. And I said, Yeah, sure, why not? It was one of the most fun Gigs I ever had and I you know one of the things I said, please tell me if there's any song that they really want And we'll make sure we do them because we want to cover whatever we want them to be This is their day when well as it turns out the son -in -law was the owner of the garden center And I was like wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute like what like how lie You know you're like I had no idea that these people were all related and he's like yeah Those are our dunkeys. I'm like, oh my gosh That's my daughter, you know when The entire, for our entire childhood, we were there like every week with these donkeys. And it turns out years later, I was singing for their family. We had no idea that we had this connection between the, you know, between the donkeys. So that was, so there's donkeys everywhere. - Did you sing the donkey song? - I sang Ushako. I didn't sing, I didn't sing the one about being that it was an anniversary. I didn't think they wanted to hear the one about, you know, if my wife died, I really didn't cry that much. And I didn't cry with - - That's true, that was very, that was sparing a good curatorial decision on your part. Yes, no, good, good call, good call. - We did do Ushaku, 'cause it's a fun song. It's a, and people love, it's really a song that people love, 'cause, and I am, and like I said, I just think it's such a beautiful song because it's using, uses the Dunkees at metaphor, you know, Dunkees teaching us a lesson. - So the, I think that's an, that is a really important message that's really hitting home for me this week. Thank you so much for sharing it. Yeah, you can make such a big difference just by, just by not being a jerk. Yeah, and it doesn't makes a huge difference. Yeah, and an instant in the blink of an eye, you could change somebody's life. You can be good. And, you know, you think about it, right? We this song came out at the beginning of a revolution, but had the people been allowed to have bread, I mean, something so basic, you know, can we just afford to have bread? Can you stop taxing us because we can't eat right now? You know, stop taxing the very food we eat, you know, how the whole face of history might have been changed, you know, that everything's like, you know, history's all like on a full -crum, right? And that's, I guess, what the Dunkie's telling us. At an instant, you could change things for the better. - That's true. Just takes a piece of bread. Just a little piece of bread, guys. Not much, just, you know, throw me a crust here. Exactly what he said, just, you know, you're well fed, just give me, let's just give me something. You were saying that a friend of yours wrote the music, so back in the day, was this only a poem? Yes. Wasn't said to music, and then your friend said it to music? Yeah, historically it came from a poem, so the poem was written during that time of the Revolution in 1848\. There was actually, Delphiou had a, there was a series of poems that he had written, not necessarily all about the revolution, but in that period he had there was a book to hit written of poems. My friend for many years he had a folk group in Milan, all these Sicilian guys moved from Salinunta down in Neutrapane and they moved up to Milan. Around 1979 he made lyrics, excuse me, he made a melody for he composed the melody. And what's funny about this song, even before I started to record, even before I recorded it, because it's gone around, this song has gone around Sicily and a lot of people think it's a traditional song. And it's like, no, it comes from a traditional poem, but it's really, you know, it was composed. It was a modern composition, a modern melody, but it's such a powerful song that people hear it and they think, well, it must be traditional. It's pretty iconic, I have to say. Your friend did an amazing job. He did. That's my friend, Rocco Polina. So what's going on these days with your music? I'm getting ready to get on the road, which as you know, if we're not on the road, we feel like we're shriveling and we're, we're stagnating. I do like to be on tour, it's true. But here's something that's really cool. And I think this will go wonderfully with your podcast with Modo de Berra. When I got down in Memphis, I said, you know, people need, you know, I need to become part of this community. I want people to know who I am. I don't want to just like be on the fringes. So I started contacting all these organizations and Tennessee has an arts commission or something like that, or our Tennessee Arts Council, so I contact them and they have a Folklife division. And I've been in correspondence with them and they said, well, you know, we're gonna have a project coming up. We're gonna, and I didn't understand what this was. I thought I was just going only for seminars. I was just gonna listen to people and meet people. So I was like, oh, this'll be great. I signed up for whatever this was. I made a proposal, whatever. Well, apparently I'm in part of this incubator for projects now for the Tennessee Folklife Institute. And I came in with the idea that, well, Sicilians and Italians have made music historically since antiquity, and it's documented on the Italian Peninsula that we've been making music since pre -Christian times. When they came to the US, what did they do? Well, a lot of people in my audience say, "Okay, this is fantastic. We love this history, but what happened when the Italians got here? What did they do? What happened when the Sicilians got here?" I wanted to see what happened with the Italian immigrants here in Memphis and making music. So now this is a project I'm doing and I'm collecting interviews from Sicilian Americans and Italian Americans here in Memphis and how music influenced it and how, whether they made music as a hobby in their family, as a tradition or whether they were part of the music industry here in Memphis. For example, the first record store in Memphis was started by two Italian American guys. Dallas bought his first record from that store. That's wild. So I have no idea where this is going to go. I don't know what's going to happen. This whole thing I started because I just wanted to find music and I was saying I could find some music that Italian Americans are making in the Memphis you know and how the Memphis sounded. So because I love to collect songs I'm like how can I put it in my show how can I give this to the audience. So now I don't know what I'm doing I don't know where this is going to wind up but I'm like documenting interviews now and collecting interviews from people I'm putting this out there if anybody's listening and you have a connection to Memphis And a connection to music or somebody in your family had a connection to Memphis and music. Let me know come talk to me I want to interview you want to document it if you have you know stories You want to tell I'm here to listen so this is something I'm working on and I'm trying to figure out how to make can I make a Show out of this what can I do because I'm also working on some new music for a lot of my tours this year And we're taking Sicilian traditions and we're putting them a continuation of that album that I put out at Christmas where we're mashing them up with American traditions from the South. It's like South crashes into South. And it's a lot of fun. We're gonna see how that unfolds and what happens. And I'm thinking in my head, I don't know how to do this now. And again, whoever's listening, you know, I'm thinking I need to make, I know everybody's doing podcasts now, but I think I need to do some kind of concert or show on like televised or filmed. I think I need to do something. I don't know how to put that together. Well, you know, MotoDBerry has a YouTube channel and we are doing MotoDBerry TV and we are filming stuff, so let's talk. That sounds like an amazing project and I've never been to Memphis. How can people get in touch with you if they want to write to you about Memphis and Sicily and music in Memphis or if they want to buy your records and find out when you're playing next, where can they go? - Easiest way to find me is to go to my website, michellamusolino .com. There's a contact page. I have a page for concerts, like on my upcoming shows. I have a store where you can buy my albums. You can buy them in physical or download and like tell everybody, you know, digital is fantastic. But if you own the actual physical CD, no corporation will ever erase it from your playlist. I would have had vinyl, but I couldn't get my hands on vinyl. I look at all your beautiful vinyl behind you at your studio, and I couldn't get my hands on vinyl for almost a year, so I couldn't press the album in vinyl. Maybe next show, I'll press it in vinyl, we'll see. - That would be great just in time for the holidays. - Miquelamusolino .com, or come to a show and meet me at a show, which I'm looking forward to. I can't wait. I just can't wait to see people in the audience again. I can't wait to connect with the audience. It's, that's, you know, as you know, it's so much fun to have a live audience. You know, It's wonderful we do things online. I even learned the magic of having, when you have to videotape something or when you're doing a live broadcast online, the magic of actually having a live audience, it changes the whole world. - We should do a show together, either in Memphis, New York or somewhere. Okay, let's do it. Yeah, let's set this up. I really appreciate you for sharing this with me. I wanted to tell you one more donkey saying that I learned On my most recent trip to Italy, I was in Polagia, which is a little village that got swallowed up by the slightly bigger village of Berbano. We spent three afternoons at the local bar. Everyone was telling us we had to meet this legend, Mario. He, among many other songs and sayings, he taught me the saying. Basically the tale is this woman was trying to tell has been that he was drinking a little too much. And he responded to her in dialect, silly woman. I'm not like the donkey who drinks only when he's thirsty. Which I just thought was so funny. I'm a civilized creature. It's here at Moto D Barry. We started the show with all the sayings about how water was not good to drink and that you should only drink wine. So we know what he's talking about drinking. Maybe in Pallaja, the donkeys even drink wine. Well, who knows? It was so fun to talk to you about this. Thank you so much for sharing this really sweet interview with us. I totally want to go pet a donkey now. I know. Send me your donkey stories. Thank you so much for checking in and listening to this episode. Send me a message. Tell me something about a donkey from your life. I want to hear everything. Thanks again, Michaela. Thanks for having me. And wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Support us on Patreon. Grab the newsletter at MotorDBerry .com and subscribe to the YouTube channel at MotorDBerry to watch the travel show Modo di Bere TV. "Music for the Show" was composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou. Purchase their music at the link in the notes. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/michela-musolino-drum-format-original-1.png) Michela Musolino and her beautiful Sicilian instrument Theme music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced and recorded by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ How To Blind Taste Wine ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e5-dr-rachel-b-allison-blind-tasting/) [ Gingerbread Under Construction ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e3-michele-thomas-under-construction-gingerbread/) ### ▷S3E3 Michele Thomas Reads "Under Construction" (BONUS EPISODE) URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e3-michele-thomas-under-construction-gingerbread/ Last updated: 2026-08-18T01:04:50.000Z I remember that my sister got the chimney. Ripped it clean off. I got a chunk of the roof with its merry red frosting letters... _This post is for paying subscribers only._ ### Under Construction URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/under-construction/ Last updated: 2026-08-18T01:04:10.000Z *A note from Michele* This is an excerpt from my as-yet-unfinished memoir, which explores food and drink as throughlines in my life. My mother’s gingerbread houses — excuse me, Gingerbread houses — are a huge part of that story. The processes of planning and building them showed me the exact crossroad where tenacity and creativity meet. (Funnily enough, the best chefs, winemakers, and somms I know tend to be found at the same crossroad). They showed me the space between “have” and “have not,” which I call “have-a-little-but-share anyway.” The Gingerbread, everyone called it back then, became pretty famous in my corner of East New York, along with my mother, as the lady who brought the innocence and magic of Christmas to a community that usually saw so little of it, even if it was for only a few days. [Listen to Michele read this essay aloud](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e3-michele-thomas-under-construction-gingerbread/) in a bonus podcast episode for paid subscribers. --- “Fucking gingerbread,” Chef Jurgen said, jacket open and sweaty after teaching Classic Pastry Arts for six hours, his pale skin and uniform almost blending into one of the long white table in the Chefs’ Office where he sat, sketching. Colored pencils and his mop of black hair were all that set the Associate Director of the Pastry Department apart from his surroundings. “What’s cooking?” I had asked him moments earlier, entering the office and passing along the other side of the table towards the printer. Since joining the French Culinary Institute’s education department a few months ago, I’d adopted this as my customary greeting for the chefs. Chef Xavier, also sweaty but from the Culinary department, glared impatiently from the computer station on the other side of the office. He’d swept into my office moments earlier, smelling like salted chicken, to tell me that the printer was jammed. Again. Like Jurgen, he was in the middle of a double teaching shift, which meant he had about a 90 minute break between classes. He needed to print a handout for his class and he needed time for a few cigarettes outside. There was no time to wait for the IT department to fix the printer. “I’m not IT,” I told him. I always told them that. “But you know *ze* computer,” he said. “I don’t know *zees* shit.” “Yes, Chef.” I opened a few panels and cleared the errant paper. Squeaks and whirring gears told me Xavier would be happy again. “Okay!” he said with a smile and clap of his hands. He rolled his body toward the printer to wait for his papers. I turned to go back to my own work, but the soft browns and reds and greens of Jurgen’s drawings stopped me. I sat down beside him, my body suddenly heavy. I wouldn’t be able to avoid Christmas, with its jingling bells, snowy rom-coms, and photos of toasty family gatherings, for much longer, no matter how many happy hours I lingered at the bar to avoid going home. I’d have to figure out something to say when asked about my holiday plans. Roasting Cornish Hens I would eat alone didn’t sound so festive. Neither did saying that I was estranged from my father and sister, and had been since my mother died. Gingerbread houses always made me think of my mother. Christmas always made me think of the family I used to see gathered in my own photos of toasty holiday gatherings. Almost everyone in the pastry department could draw, but Jurgen’s lines reminded me the most of my mother’s. I could see the formal training in both, the light strokes, swift moves that slowed down as the confidence in their line placement grew. I looked at Jurgen’s hands filling in buildings and windows. “My mom used to make gingerbread houses,” I said. “Oh nice,” he said in Austrian-accented English. *NiiCE.* I instantly felt stupid. I wanted to make him understand. Gingerbread―and that’s how I say it, with a capital “G”―is a time, an event, maybe even a place, and, at its simplest and purest, a housing project, an inversion of the one I grew up in out in east Brooklyn. A pastry art. Not something made from a kit. “I mean, big ones, like this.” I tried to recover. “Not, like, the ones from Costco or whatever. Is this for the 4th floor display?” Jurgen leaned back in the chair and looked at me. The sweat was drying, giving him a dewy sheen. He ran his hands through his hair. “This is really big. It’s for L’Ecole. We do a big gingerbread every year,” he said. “I mean, I do like it. It’s Rockefeller Center and the students volunteer and it’s very good for them. It’s just a pain in the ASS.” He smiled and turned the sketch toward me. “Top of the rock! They want more color, so I’m redecorating.” “Oh nice,” I said. I was curious now. L’Ecole was the school’s Michelin-rated restaurant and where I spent happy hour most nights after work. I wondered where they’d fit a gingerbread house down there. My mom could have made Rockefeller Center out of Gingerbread, I was sure of it. One year, she made a small town of six houses with a bridge over which Santa and his reindeer drove a sleigh. In another, she made a train station, complete with multi-car locomotive and a Gingerbread soldier the size of a Pringles can. “Chef Juurrgen!” A Queens accent echoed from the hall just outside of the office. Chef Cynthia loped in, her clogs thunking beneath her. “Chef Jur-oh! There you are. I can’t find the gold leaf. Do we have any more?” “Check the storeroom. Ask Bear,” he said, then leaned toward me. “You should come see the gingerbread! We’re working on it tonight. Come to the kitchen.” \*\*\* After work, I grabbed my usual seat at the far corner of the bar in L’Ecole, closest to the window and the least in the way of the guests who’d made actual dinner plans. I had a full view of the dining room, painted cream with oxblood trim and banquettes. On the walls were frosted sconces and photos of prestigious chefs with students: Bobby Flay’s graduation photo with Julia Child, Alain Sailhac, André Soltner and Jacques Pépin smiling benevolently over the dining room—many of the staff referred to Chefs Alain, André, and Jacques as the father, son and holy ghost of Culinary Arts. I could see the doors that led to the kitchens, where the gingerbread house was under construction. I sipped on my favorite cocktail — a blend of vodka, lychee puree, ginger and lime juice called Fire & Ice — while working on the courage to step into the kitchens. I was a suit, working in an office, worse than front-of-house. I didn’t belong back there. At least this is what I told myself. In truth, I was afraid the pastry department’s Rockefeller Center would blow apart every house I’d ever had, and with it somehow my sense of being good enough to move around in this world. I didn’t even like Rockefeller Center. I’ve never lived in a house, but I had one, made out of gingerbread, every Christmas for sixteen years, for about four days. We all did: me, my sister, my parents, a few extended relatives, the neighbor kids and their parents—well, some of the parents, anyway. Some of them you wouldn’t let into your apartment because they’d steal your shit, or worse, tell everyone what you didn’t have. Our house was decorated with candy and royal icing windows that could shatter like glass and families, set in the middle of a snowy, sugary yard, in the middle of the living room of my family’s two bedroom apartment. *With my older sister, salivating over Gingerbread 1983* The first house was simple enough. A gingerbread cabin with a sloping roof and a chimney that was designed to look as though it would fall off, taken from the pages of whatever magazine my mother picked up from the checkout line at Pathmark a few weeks before. The trees were made of gumdrops, the front yard was lined with candy canes, and white children made of paper watched us from every window while a cookie-cutter gingerbread man stood by the fence, guarding the property. Royal icing swirled across the yard, just past the fence, fading into aluminum foil that wrapped the corrugated cardboard base of the property. The fence and chimney were gingerbread baked with sliced almonds, and, like the rest of the house, were dusted with powdered sugar. “Merry X-Mas,” read one side of the roof in red frosting. “To all a good night,” read the other. The house looked desperately happy, a shadow of sadness around the edges, under the eaves. It looked like we did that Christmas, barely three months after my grandmother died. My mother didn’t know what to do with the grief, so she made us something to eat. I was little, a few months into kindergarten, and don’t remember exactly how long it took her to make that house, but I am sure it was less than a week. It was always less than a week, and always finished by Christmas Eve. “God built the world in seven days,” she’d say. “This damn well gonna be done in six.” “What the FUCK are you doing out here?” Jurgen’s voice snapped me out of my memory. Somehow, I’d missed the approach of his 6’3” frame, clad in white and flour spattered black pants. “Come see.” “I was getting a drink first!” “You can order another one later,” he said, throwing an arm around my shoulders. “Come, and then I can join you at 8.” It was 5:45\. I’d hoped to be home by 8, or at least on the subway. But I scooted off the stool and said, “Yes, Chef.” “Pfft,” he said, leading me across the dining room toward the kitchen doors. “Don’t ‘yes chef’ me. I hear that all fucking day. God!” You’ve got to move with purpose when walking through a kitchen. I had to almost run to keep up with Jurgen’s long strides past the *saucier* and *garde manger* stations on the way to the pastry kitchen. “Civilian!” Chef Xavier yelled at me across the pass. “What you do back here?” He was to expedite for the Level 5 class that evening. “Ordering fries?” \*\*\* Muffet, our mostly beagle mutt, ate the gingerbread man sentry while my mother, sister, and I were at the midnight Mass that officially started Christmas (my dad was supposed to be watching the dog, but he fell asleep, the work day that started at 8am wearing on him), but the rest of us had to wait a few more days to get a taste. There weren’t many of us that year, just my sister and I, our neighbor Jacqueline, and her mother, Mary, from the building next door, and Ms. Connie, who was probably mom’s best girlfriend, and her kids. I don’t even think Ms. Peggy the Crackhead and her girls were there that year. I remember we posed for pictures in the living room before my mother ferried the house back to the kitchen table, where the dog couldn’t reach. And I remember the countdown. “Ready, set,” my mother said. “One. Two. Two and a half. Two and three quarters. THREE! Go!” Somewhere between ten and twelve gingerbread-colored hands flew toward the house, sugar-snow flying, and ripped into that house with the force of a thousand tornadoes and the kind of savage glee that only children in the presence of unregulated sugar can muster. Cameras snapped, flashes like lightning, and a mixture of child and grownup laughs thundered through the kitchen and bounced off the walls. It was biblical. I remember that my sister got the chimney. Ripped it clean off. I got a chunk of the roof with its merry red frosting letters, a bit of cabin wall—I remember how my mother used a paring knife to score lines in the gingerbread dough just before baking to make it look as though it were made of logs—and a chunk of the rustic nut fence. I picked away the bits of royal icing that held the structure together and shared some of them with Muffet, who sat drooling under the table. My mother peeled away the paper child icing-glued to the window, clucking her teeth, before letting me chomp my way through her construction—the windows would be different next year. I can’t speak for what the other kids took with them, but I know they carried it home in one of the sandwich bags my mother always kept in the cabinet with the pie dishes. Every kid got one sandwich bag. Siblings got two if they shared. After the dust settled and us kids were sugared to exhaustion, the house lived on for another week or so in a series of vessels—the big orange bowl normally reserved for bread and chocolate chip cookies, and then, after few days of regulated afternoon snacking, or my father’s unregulated night raids, the great glass cookie jar that lived on the kitchen counter. That jar was rigged, there was no way to open it silently. My sister and I tried for years. Barely touching the lid was always followed by my mother’s voice from down the hall. “Put it back,” she would say. Christmas had been captured, crafted even, and brightly decorated to make it stand out in the dark. *Photo courtesy of Michele Thomas* ### ▷S3E2 Shift Drink: Michele Thomas on Writing Wine & Working Retail URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e2-michele-thomas-bed-stuy-somm/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T04:36:34.000Z Michele Thomas is a writer, sommelier and the manager and buyer at a neighborhood wine shop in Brooklyn. RT and Michele are old friends from RT's wine rep days. They get together to dish about the purpose of tasting notes, the art of wine writing, and how to welcome new drinkers into the world of wine. Also: pairing Italian wine with jerk chicken, wine as a second or third act career, Cynar and tonic with a lime as the perfect "shift drink" after a day of retail hospitality. In a special segment, Michele reads an excerpt of her creative memoir essay, "Under Construction," bringing together her memories of growing up in East New York and working at the International Culinary Center. Modo di Bere later published the whole essay in the magazine, and Michele also read it aloud in a bonus podcast episode for paid subscribers. [Read the essay](https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/under-construction/) [Listen](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e3-michele-thomas-under-construction-gingerbread/) to Michele read it aloud Recording this episode together helped RT and Michele remember how much they love talking about drinks and language. RT has since launched Modo di Bere Magazine with Michele as the editor! Modo di Bere Magazine is also the home of Michele's new monthly column, Bed Stuy Somm. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/michele-format-original-1.jpg) Follow Michele on Instagram [@bedstuysomm](https://www.instagram.com/bedstuysomm?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fweb%5Fbutton%5Fshare%5Fsheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==) Read her piece in the New Yorker: [The Christmas Wreath](https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-christmas-wreath?ref=mododibere.com) Winemakers mentioned in the episode: [Frecciarossa ](https://www.frecciarossa.com/en/?ref=mododibere.com) [Punset](https://en.punset.com/?ref=mododibere.com) [Andre Mack](https://www.andrehmack.com/?ref=mododibere.com) [B Stuyvesant Champagne](https://www.stuyvesantchampagne.com/?ref=mododibere.com) [Pierre Richard](https://www.domainepierrerichard.com/en/?ref=mododibere.com) **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript This episode features strong drinks as well as strong language. My approach to writing tasting notes has always been three point. I want to tell you what the wine is, where it comes from, what you'll experience, and what you can do with it. Because I think that's what people want to know. If you don't do that in a wine tasting note, you're doing your customers dirty. \[music\] Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. Today, I'm so pleased to welcome to the show Michelle Thomas. No relation. Michelle Thomas, yes. Yeah. I mean, Thomas is my middle name, but yes, we do have that in common. Michelle is a writer, writing instructor, and the longtime manager of Brooklyn's Green Grape Wine Shop. She has an MFA in creative writing from St. Joseph's College, where she's also now an instructor. She had attended and previously worked for many years with the wine program at the International Culinary Center. Before I met Michelle, I fell in love with her tasting notes, the written descriptions of the wines that she had put up around the shop. And we enjoyed tasting together for many years when I was working as a wine rep, and I'm so pleased to have her on the show today to talk about writing and drinks and writing about drinks and how it all goes together with the language piece. Michelle, welcome. Thank you. Thank you. I'm really decided to be here. If you want to read some of Michelle's published works, you can look for The Christmas Wreath, which was published in The New Yorker. Michelle, what are you working on writing now? Yeah, so right now I'm working on a memoir in linked essays about my experience with food, wine, and family. Those are the through lines of my life and so those are gonna be the through lines of my memoir. I volunteer as on the jury for the Fordham University Many Voices prize, which is a writing prize for first -generation college students. I am still working with the Fulton Street Fellowship, which is a small group founded by local people to help get Black people into the wine industry. Amazing. Yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much for your work. Yeah. Before we jump to the interview, I want to let everyone know that this is a listener -supported program. So please take a moment, pause the interview. We'll be here when you get back. Go to patreon .com /MotoDBerry and sign up to join the community, become one of the supporters, make sure that this awesome show gets to continue. So thank you very much to everybody who is a subscriber. You are keeping this ship afloat. Thank you very much. Okay, we've got local drinks, we've got local sayings, and then we've got the local wine shop. So I just have a lot of thoughts about the neighborhood wine shop and how it functions as a part of the neighborhood. Do you have any thoughts about that or stories from your time as the local wine shop? Yeah, I love being at a local wine shop. It occupies a really beautiful place in sort of a neighborhood ecosystem between like your home and your local bar. But your wine shop is someplace in between. Like you can grab your drinks to go, but also you come in, you talk to people that you So I have great customers that I've seen their kids grow up and I've having seen them come in for years when they were like, you know, 10, 11\. Now they're 20, 21 and I've sold them their first bottle of wine. That's so amazing. I actually had someone come in. He had his little under 21 license cut up and he made earrings out of it and he came in and I proudly sold him his first bottle of wine on his 21st birthday. And that those experiences are really special. You get to be part of people's families. You know, I usually send my customers, I'll send them a bottle of bubbly when they have a marriage or they get married or they have a baby or just, you know, marking life's events 'cause you know, that's what you want wine to do anyway. You want it to be part of your life. And so I think, I just love, I just love that experience. - So in terms of bringing new drinkers into wine, let's talk about tasting notes because I love your tasting notes. I love your description. - Oh, thank you. - There are all these like little cards around the green grape on the bottles of wine. And I remember coming to the store early on and saying, who is writing these? Because these are really great. I know people have a lot of feelings about tasting notes. And I think that when it can be something that feels like a obscure or a prescription, and like, if you don't taste this, you're wrong. And some people have kind of moved away from the more descriptive tasting notes to talk about supposedly more objective things like structure or wine making, but I still love them. Tasting notes like yours. I love them. How do you feel about that? I'll start with, you know, what I've always seen as a peeve and something that I feel like kept me out of wine for a long time before I became familiar with it through, you know, education was that you go to a store and you're overwhelmed by either no descriptions or things that are talking about things that, you know, you don't know, like the average person has no idea what three day cold soaked maceration. Nobody knows what that means. My approach to writing tasty notes has always been three point. I want to tell you what the wine is, where it comes from, what you'll experience and what you can do with it. Because I think that's what people want to know. If you don't do that in a wine -tasting note, you're doing your customers dirty. Yeah. Yeah. Could you, off the top of your head, give us an example even if you're making it up now? One that comes to mind pretty frequently is the Fresh Arosa Pito Reggio and they have a beautiful Pito Nero that we carry. I had got a chance to meet the wine maker recently, and she was so lovely, and she told us this story about how Alfred Hitchcock loved her grandpa's wines. And he tried them in a restaurant and became so enamored with them, he found out who made the wine and then promptly either traveled to Italy himself or sent someone back to pick up the wine every year for about ten years. Wow. And that story stuck with me because what an amazing piece of history to have with that. Alfred Hitchcock liked your family's words. That's amazing, you know. Yeah. Another one I tend to think about is Marina Marcarino of Ponset Winery. She makes these beautiful or dented biodynamic Barbaristos in Pomonte and she was the first person to do it and definitely the first woman to do it. And everybody thought she was bonkers. She was just like, "I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna convert my family's wineries." And the whole, all the neighbors thought she was nuts. She did it and her wines are gorgeous. - And she was right. - She was right. She's teaching in a local university and she got kids out of kindergarten for being like a little bit of badass. Like someone who's just like, "I'm gonna do things my own way." And I think that really tarries into her wine as well. - They're great. Those are gorgeous ones. Oh, I love that. I love that. I've always had this thought because I'm a writer too. I remember when I first got into wine, I just remember thinking to myself, learning how to describe how something tastes and smells and makes you feel, this is going to make me a better writer. Even not writing about the wine, just tasting the wine. It's kind of like writing about music. It's hard. I remember when I was a concert promoter, which I still do, but I had like a house concert venue. I would promote the artists and they just would have nothing online about what their music sounded like. How do I tell the fans of my venue what this band sounds like? It's actually hard to describe, well, what music sounds like. It kind of made me think of writing about one. I think that's 100 % true. I always call it fun with adjectives. And in fact, I've always wanted to teach a writing class or teach a group of writing teachers about wine because it's fun with adjectives. - That is a great idea. Oh my God, let's do that together. - Let's do it, right? It'll be so much fun. - That would be awesome. - But it is really hard because we're always told that wine is subjective and it is, it absolutely is subjective, but there are feelings that come to the front and there are high notes and low notes and some of it is free association with what it makes you think of. And for the most part, the wines that I've tasted and sampled and talking with winemakers, you're pretty close. So the winemakers put their heart and their soul into their projects and they want you to taste that. And when you talk to them about it, and you share some of those things. They're like, "Yes, that's what I wanted." So it is difficult to do, but I really put my heart into doing it. - Yeah, yeah. Well, your tasting notes are amazing. Do you have the tasting notes up on the Green Grape website? - Yeah, they're actually all on greengrapewine .com. - And do you guys ship? - We do. We ship all locally throughout New York state. It's a little bit trickier in many other states because New York beverage law, or actually US beverage law is kind of fun to you, but we can certainly ship to like Connecticut, California, Florida, DC. And we also have a link on our website that will show you exactly where we can ship. Okay, great. Well, whether you want to order some wine from Michelle's awesome shop or she works or not, you can go to... It's green with an E at the end. So greendrapewine .com is our wine store specific website. Greendrape .com will get you to our company website. I also make a point of writing about each producer too, so not just the wine notes, but who are the producers? We want to make sure that our customers know that each wine is researched. We want to know about their labor practices. What makes them special? How do they approach it? Where are they? Don't take a look. I think maybe the place where people just started blowing off tasting notes all together was as a reaction or a swing away from the heyday of a wine critic with a score. I would hope that even when that was more of the model, that that was there as like a consumer service and not as like, I am the authority. And if you don't taste what I think, you know, fuck you. - I definitely think that is part of the reaction to it. Those scores blew up and people used them as a to pick the wines that they thought were the best, but they were the best according to one person. - It's Robert Parker. - Robert Parker. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - There's documentaries about it. Look them up, Robert Parker. I think also moving away from those tasting notes was a rejection of the conventional idea of what a sommelier is or does. It's someone who walks around in a restaurant in a three -piece suit, very buttoned up, and they have like a doodad around their neck and they taste wine and they tell you that this is the wine that you to have with your tacos, your $400 tacos. This is the only wine you can have with it. If you don't like it, there's something wrong with you. I think people rejected that and were intimidated by it. I think it was designed to be intimidating. The right intention of all of that was and still is, because I still think that's an important role, is to increase enjoyment of a customer. I want you to have a good time. I want you to enjoy your food. I want you to enjoy your wine. I want you to have a good night. Yeah. And I'm here in service of you. Yeah. But I think as far as the intimidation factor, yeah, I mean, things about power. I know about this. Yeah. See thing. And, you know, it's, it's hard. I mean, they make wine all over the world. It is legitimately hard. There's multiple languages. There's rules in different parts of the world. There's histories. There's geography, like, but your subject gets thrown at you, you know, in wine. And I think that's true that the role is designed to help people have a better experience when they pick wine or make it easier for them to choose wine because wine is the world. It's overwhelming and huge. Like most things there's an edge where it can start to tip into unapproachable and people can sort of take advantage of the idea that I am very powerful. I have lots of money so I'm going to buy this expensive thing that I don't even like and made you drink it. And I think that over time, especially like moving out of the, I think I would honestly say out of the late 90s and into the early 2000s, people started to reject that idea. They wanted it to be a little bit more casual. They wanted it to be a little bit more approachable. We saw this with the rise of the chef, the rise of like moving away from sort of the Uber French, very militaristic style chef who yelled at you all the time to the rock and roll chef with an armful of tattoos. I think this is a very similar movement. I really believe that to be the case. - Did wine get there though? 'Cause you're making me think of a food network moment where suddenly everybody knows what Y Goop beef is and all this stuff. I think it changed the way that people cooked and the number of people dined. Do you think we fully reached that moment with wine? - I think we're still struggling with that. I think it's on the path. I think that we're gonna get there. I just don't know that we're there yet. - What's gonna get us there? - I think a few more years of really making wine accessible and making wine diverse. Diverse is the people who drink it. People around the world, people in every culture, black, white, green, yellow, queer, not queer. Everybody likes wine. Everybody likes to drink something and they like to eat. Making sure that we can have wine producers on the market that reflect those people and making sure that we have wines that can address those foods. I think that will go a long, long way. - Yeah. - Where like not everybody wants to eat state au poivre. Like if you wanna have chicken wings, which I just had last night, they were delicious. What do you drink with it? Oh my god. I had this really lovely Italian orange mistato. It was a diverse demeanor. It was lovely. It was a little bit funky, but they had these really beautiful tropical fruit notes that just popped up with that jerk chicken spice. Oh my god, that sounds amazing. We need to tell people that you can do that. Yeah. And then I think it'll help really go a long way. Yeah, definitely. Well, I salute you and your work with education and everything. I've been feeling this in my heart for years. It has to diversify it or wither on the vine. Thank you for coming on the show. Frankly, there aren't that many Black people in the wine industry and y 'all are busy. Is there a lot of demands on your time? How do you manage that? I think that's true. I think that as historically underrepresented black people and generally people of color or any people in a minority position feel the need and are urged to do more, right? To do as much as they possibly can to keep up with average Joe who makes $2 more than you do, right? So I think that there is a drive to almost over commit ourselves and to do so much as we want to do so much. And I know I want to do so much, but sometimes I just want to lay in my bed because I'm so I'm so tired. Yeah. You know. So, all those things are true at the same time. Yeah. And I think it's true. There are still the numbers of black people in the wine industry and people of color generally are awful. It's less than 2 % of all working wine professionals in the United States. That's bananas. It is bananas. It is absolutely bananas. It's getting better very slowly. And it's a problem in retail, too. I live in a historically black neighborhood and the Green Grape stands out as a place where you're actually going to see those faces when you walk in. I mean, that's intentional too. Part of it is being a woman of color in that industry. I want to show that, "Hey, it's accessible to you," and I see it in my customers. Some of my customers, you know, black or brown customers comment, they feel a little bit more at ease because I'm not going to make them feel weird or dumb and with my staff, I'm like, you know, if you're interested, I don't care where you're starting. I will do my best to teach you and bring you into it and like help hopefully infect you with some of the same DD excitement that I feel about wine and food. And you can see that, you know, people respond to it, they love being given opportunity and you know, and I've told people who worked for me too, like even if wine isn't your passion and don't want to go into this as a full -time business. Whatever you learn and why, you can take with you anywhere. You can take learning how to describe something, you can take sales stills, you can take talking to people, coming out of your shell, those presentation stills that you have, and just an openness to try something new. That is necessary in everything, everything. Otherwise, you're just a bum. Like, - You're not cool, you're not cool. (gentle music) The wine, wine business is an industry that nobody, like very, very people understand how wine works. - Yeah, there's like this cachet and that's about it. It's the wine itself and the stories and the flavors. It's absolutely like learning a language so I can understand why I just feel like a lot coming in. But as you learn, I mean, for me, and this is what I always say with my work as an educator with the show, the purpose is to increase enjoyment. The purpose of greater, increased knowledge is increased enjoyment. I'm here to communicate, not to show off. And that, I think, is where I hope we can all head together. That's exactly what it should be. I think that's why we've always bonded about it, because that's what we want to do. And the wine communicates. I mean, that's the thing is no other product, food product in the world that I can think about. You can be like, "Okay, maybe cheese." Maybe cheese. You know, but just the way that it tells the story about the land and the place and the human natural connection and the weather in the year and the way that it's kind of this like geologic - Yeah. - It blew my mind, I couldn't stop messing with it. It became so much more than a day job for me. And that moment when you open up the wine list at the restaurant, instead of being like, what's, do you have a cavern egg? (laughing) And it's getting from there to, oh, I know this, I know this, oh my God, my friend that I'm eating with is gonna love this. And they're like, oh, she's gonna order for us. and then, you know, you taste it and you're like, okay, I know how to tell if this is flawed or not. And I'm not nervous about this little ritual of the, you know, but, and then where I'll drink in the bottle and everyone's like, oh my god, this is great. Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah. I'm a wine picker outer. I figured it out. Even this, this use of the word master, yeah, a lot of these programs, no one could master it. Right. It changes every year, every year, Every single wine from everywhere in the world, unless it's like absolutely chemically modified so that it doesn't change every year. But if you're the small family farms that like I really am passionate about, and you're working in harmony with the earth, then that's why we need wine writers, I think, to help us keep track of, I don't know, even though I guess I'm making a case for vintage notes, but that's not even really that useful. Hey, how do you feel about vintage? - I wanna know what happened, but I think they became like a way to dam an entire region for the whole vintage. - I think that's right. I think that with anything, anytime you make a generalization, you run a wrist of losing bits of nuance, right? That's always a wrist, but I think that vintage notes are useful in giving you like a general idea, a very general idea. They need to know that maybe the wine from 2018 is not gonna be quite the same as from 2020 and a little bit of why. That's really helpful to know. We can make vintage notes more accessible for average consumers and then for nerds like us, we can go deeper. And then we wanna be like, okay, why was this vintage so challenging for this, that and the other person or this, that and the other region or like maybe this, just this sub region really had a hard time, but the guys down the road, great vintage, right? - Right, right. I think it's just so much more complicated than good vintage, bad vintage. Although I feel like great vintage is kind of one of those things everyone knows to say about wine, like gymnastics, stick the landing, right? And it's like actually, I mean, I like just challenging vintage. You know, it's not like, oh, bad vintage. I mean, maybe in the past, I don't know, but winemakers have been working so hard and learning so much science and a good winemaker can make something great. Yeah, just might not have very much to sell. But then you need to know, like, why is it more expensive this year? Exactly why their production was down. You know, I want so much for there to, I feel like things have gone so sour and numbers are reflecting that there's all these studies coming out of people wine and it's a little bit of a shouting for it. I'm like, "Okay, I told you to be like a zombie and you didn't listen to me." And of course, like I want this amazing product to succeed. So I worked in retail too, kind of bopped around in different parts of the industry before I started MotoGPerry. I always felt that this was so sad, but was the reality that it's an opportunity. Yeah. When people come into the wine shop, they expect to be made to feel bad. - Yeah. - In my thought about how to make things more accessible, if you're just not an asshole, you're already ahead. - It goes so far just not being a jerk when someone walks in the, just say hi. It starts with a hello. How you doing? Like you could just go straight there. And I think that's a hundred percent right. And just going back to your point about, I think why we need wine winewriters, it remained me think of the piece that Taryn McNeil wrote recently, which was excellent. And you should go read it. Her name's Taryn McNeil. She's written The Wine Bible. She's brilliant. She talks about the loss of the winewriter and feeling a little bit disturbed because there's no place for it anymore. I mean, I'm paraphrasing deeply, but yeah, yeah, yeah. She's a great winewriter. She's a great winewriter. I love the Wine Bible and it's one of my favorite wine texts because she really makes the story come to life. I mean, there's things that she says about how to taste that everybody uses. I don't know if she came up with it, but learning about body through thinking about skin milk versus cream, learning about tannin. But she doesn't just say tannin is this or that. She says, you make a cup of tea. Your friend calls you to tell her about her divorce, and then your tea is oversteeped, and that's tannin. Or Osiris like cowboy boots. Yeah, like and I remember that stuff. I think that's really important I I do see that we have lost some wine writers or lost places Or I guess I should say the more obvious in general is generally but the flip side of that is that There's still places to write about wine We just have to maybe change our idea of what who a wine writer is and where they write. So maybe there's not a column in the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal anymore. There should be. But if it's not there, go on to Instagram. Go on to YouTube. I write about wine a lot on Instagram. Bed, B -E -D -S -T -U -Y -S -O -M -M on Instagram. That's where I write a lot about wine and culture and you can find those types of wine writers. And I think that's where wine writing is going. This doesn't maybe be smaller segments, much more not necessarily bottle reviews, but much more like experiential reviews or talking about who they met and how they enjoyed the wine less than, you know, well, this wine was created by magical fairies and Pulled on a truck of unicorns before it was told sold macerated for six hours We did just much more much less obtuse. Yeah real and more on the ground. I can't remember who said I want to say I'm Dorothy Dater Who's to work for the Wall Street Journal? Said wine is a grocery In Europe wine is a grocery and it should be and I like that I do like a grocery item. It's a grocery, right? Yeah Yeah, it's not something that you need to say for special occasion. It can be. It's daily bread. It's daily bread. You can have daily bread, but you can also have really great specialty bread. So I think once we start treating wine like that, we'll be on the right way, the right path. It's so hard in the United States though because wine at the grocery store here is, it's made by like five companies. And the wine that you get if you're in New York, if you're in Chicago, or, you know, you have to visit this, go and visit the specialty shop. And that's the way that I always encourage people. It literally makes no sense that you can't buy wine at the grocery shop here. But if you could, then this amazing thriving culture of independent wine shops would just wither and die because everyone would just get it all at Whole Foods. Don't don't make that a law, people. I know it's counterintuitive, But that's one weird prohibition era rule that in New York City, you can't buy wine at the grocery store that has accidentally led to this amazing Local wine culture that brings wine makers from all over the world to come in yeah be part of this cool education stuff I want that to Be found throughout the country even in New York. We have to have a specialty shop for that So I just want people to treat wine like a grocery item, to go back to wine and grocery shops. It is counterintuitive, but I don't know. If anything, I want the five companies who have these major stores to bring in the independent wine makers. I don't care where we sell wine, as long as we have access to the great stuff, great products from a multitude of makers, because people are making wine everywhere, so people everywhere should enjoy it. It just gets harder when, you know, if you're at, I don't know, a Wedmonds or a Walmart or Whole Foods, they're not going to... Whole Foods is almost a bad example because they dedicate their work towards independent small producers. No, no, no. Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. But if we're going more for like Walmart or Target or whatever other big market store they're at. Or I mean, we're talking more about like distribution and the way that it works in the rest of most of the country, like, listen, I want to just say right here, like, I don't want to make anybody who's drinking Yellowtail, like, feel bad. Oh. The experience that I had was just, even talking about small farm versus, like, big conglomerate with lots of additives. Yeah. Anything you see in quantity to be found at stores, like, all over the United States, just the way that that viticulture works is just going to be kind of like the difference between like wine and a Coke. I like Coke. You know what I mean? It's just tough though because people just aren't exposed to this stuff too. Right. I've been to my mom's wine store in rural Illinois. Everything is like from like a huge, huge company. I think that's right. I'm kind of rambling right now. But I'm with you. I'm with you on the ramble. And I'm with you like it's, it's such a complicated problem that we have here in this country with as far as wine and access to wine and wine distribution and also wine marketing. It's one of the reasons why everybody has like those same three brands of wine is because that's the wine being marketed. So maybe if there was another way for wine to be marketed, more people would have access to it or more people would know to request the wine. Honestly, if you were in Joe Bob's like Big Magistor, wherever Joe Bob lives, maybe He lives in Cincinnati and more people requested pun set wines or hobo wine company wines, which is really small mom and literally mom and pop made wine, but excellent stuff. They would sell it. Yeah. Yeah, I am. So it's, it's super complicated. I feel like we're going to need to keep picking away at this problem for at least another 10 years to try to break it down, but it's, it's, it's really sticky. And I think that's where the word of a retailer comes in because, sorry, now it's my turn to ramble. Do it, do it, do it. People will go out to eat at a restaurant and they'll have a great night and they'll try a great wine and then they will go to their retailer and they go, I had the most amazing wine on my dad's, you know, 50th birthday party, whatever. They can't find it at a retail shop. So what position does that leave them at? They're only trying to get, they want to re -trade that experience and they can't go to the restaurant every day. That's where as a retailer, your work can be to find wines that are going to be kind of like that, wines that are really special, wines that bring something exciting to the person who consumes them, wines that have a great story, and then they can have that really special experience with a wine that they spent, you know, 20 bucks on on a Tuesday. And then you're like, "Oh my God !" And, you know, then they come back the next day and they're like, "Oh, that wine was great." And you're like, "Yeah, absolutely that wine's great." And you feel great about it. Yeah. Yeah. So, at this point in the show, I just want to say real quick that you should be following MotoDBerry on YouTube and Instagram. If you like the podcast and you're a fan of the podcast, there's also some other content there that you're missing out on in terms of what Michelle's talking about, about where the wine writer is. Check out the whole platform. Go to my website, MotoDBerry .com, sign up for my newsletter, Instagram, YouTube. Get in there and follow, subscribe, you know, keep up with all the adventures and see cool clips of me and Michelle and everybody else that I'm talking to. So get in there guys and follow Michelle. And Michelle, you talk about on your Instagram account, you do some wine writing, but you also write a lot about cocktails and you call it the shift drink. Yes. Can you explain for our listeners what a shift drink is? Yes. So a shift drink is a time -honored tradition in the hospitality world, where after a long day of serving your customers, whether you're at a bar or a restaurant, you know, the staff, after the last table is done, the last people are done, you lock the doors, and there's a chance for those staff to just sort of take a breath and enjoy something for themselves, that they don't have to share with anybody, that they don't have to deal with anybody, they don't have to pretend to be anyone else. They have to put anyone else's needs first for just that drink or that last couple of moments. And that's where the idea of the shift drink comes from. And so what I like to do is re -create that idea for just an everyday person. Like when you're done with work, when I'm done with work and I work in hospitality, I work in retail, but I still think of and as a hospitality person, I want to go home and I want to have that breath, that cocktail, that's just something that's interesting and something that goes with whatever I'm experiencing in my life at that moment, whether it's a subway to me or a really cool TV show or whatever. What's one of your recent cocktails that you've made for yourself at home that you're like, "Oh, that was a good one?" Well, one that I actually, I haven't put it up yet, but I'm really experimenting with it, is something really simple. It is a chinar, a tonic, and a lime, chinar, and tonic, and a lime. Oh, that sounds great. It's so good, and it almost gives you like a little bit of Coke vibes as someone who loves Coke, and diet Coke specifically. Diet Coke is magic medicine. It is magical. It gives you a little bit of that, but it also gives you like a little bit of a buzz, which is lovely. And I just, I can pour that and sit on the couch with my popcorn, it goes straight with popcorn actually, and just like, you know, deep to press. Oh my God, that's a great pairing. I love that. Michelle, speaking of getting into wine, how did you get into wine? How did you end up at the International Culinary Center? Oh man, so this is a funny story. I worked in children's in children's publishing right after college. I studied journalism and I said, "I'm gonna go and be a reporter." And then I was a reporter and I'm like, "I don't like this." So I ended up in children's books and I'd worked there for a long time and got a little burned out. And I wanted to - You read a couple of children's books also. I did, yes. Yes. I wrote books for middle graders, Science and Oxygen and Science and Sodium. So they're very, very high -tech books. But I got a little burnt out and I wanted to start writing about something I've always loved, which is food. It was such a big part of my life. So I found this job posting and I'm like, I don't know, if I can write about, you know, if I can teach second graders how light works, I figure I can help teach, you know, adult students how to fry an egg. So I interviewed and I really didn't think I had the job at all. I was like so nervous. I was in this beautiful, like, renowned school. It was Bobby Flays Alma Mater. It was, like, surrounded by chefs. I was the one intimidated. And the job was as a writer? The job was as a writer, to edit the schools. They had proprietary textbooks. I threw my hat in the rain, and I'll never forget. I was in an interview with Chef Nils Norene, who was the chef of Agrovi. Great, great chef. Amazing guy. Super, super intimidating to look at and he asked me what I'd like to cook and I looked him dead in the face and I said fried chicken and he looked at me and he said hmm and I was like that's it I've bombed this interview and I left and then like you know two days later I got a call and they're like oh yeah you're hired and I was like what oh sorry short that's how I got into the International Culinary Center and I got into wine specifically because the school was bringing on a wine program and they hired an amazing master sommelier, Scott Tarny, to head up that program. And so it was my job to put it out of the content. And Scott Tarny, who I'm telling you, this man is a G. He is amazing. He's worked at Gramercy Tavern. He's like knows everybody. He's just genius. But he's so kind and so compassionate. And when he's talking to me about wine lessons to include in the curriculum, he got me excited. He told me stories. He told me like about fruits and vegetables. And then after work, we would go get tequila. It was great. And so I eventually took a class with him and I was hot. I was bitten. And that's how I got into wine. And I haven't looked back since. That's amazing. Yeah. That's amazing. That's, it's a great, It's a great world to be in, great space to be in. (gentle music) Andre Mack is another wine maker who I love and respect and he also lives in Brooklyn. He's an amazing guy, worked at Perse, has many restaurants. He has a show on Bon Appetit. But he said something really interesting to me once. He said, "Most people in wine, "whether you're in wine sales, wine writing, wine business. We've had a couple of lives already. We've tried a couple of different things and we all fall into wine. Very few people wake up one day and go, "I'm going to get into wine." At least in this country, people fall into it. They are doing another thing. One day I produced music videos and I was like, "Oh, this is what wine's amazing." I'm there. I'm there in that story. Exactly. You're there in that So I think that shows that wine is a, is a world and a business for curious people. And the more curious people we have in the world, the better the world is generally. I love that. I said what I said. You can cook fried chicken for me anytime. What are we drinking with that fried chicken? Oh man, bubbles. You can always drink bubbles. Which one? Which one? Which style which style oh, that's I like a champagne or come on, you know champagne if I'm a fancy girl I've been obsessed with be Syverson champagne for years Not just because it's delicious, but because she's a black woman producer She lives in Brooklyn. She's from Brooklyn. She's awesome really really cool lady and her wines are excellent or The other end of that would be Pierre Rechard. They have a beautiful Cremant de Jura, 100 % Chardonnay, and it's just, it's everything you want. It's so, so tasty, you just like, you open it, and it's like less than 30 bucks too, it's great. It transports you to Jura. You're in the hills, you're in the mountains, it's fresh, it's pretty, it's mineral, It's golden apples and it just like pops along something like that. And why does it work so well with the fried chicken? Texture. Right? Like, bubbles are great because they're, they have texture and they will, you know, work with the snap, crackle pop of a good fried chicken. And that those soft apple and floral notes really marry well with whatever spice seasoning you have on a fried chicken. I like to add paprika to mine. And so it makes those like spice notes really pop. They sort of play off of some of the barrel notes and the fruit. It's just great. It's just so good. - All right, ladies, gentlemen, everybody. I think you can see why I had Michelle on the show to talk about how to talk about flavor. - I'm hungry now. - Oh my God, isn't that the worst? Isn't that the worst? So Michelle, knowing your story about having started in the culinary center, which to me, I'm I'm like, oh, wow, really? I'm like, oh, wow, fancy. When you let me read your gingerbread story, I think of this. Would you mind reading for us the gingerbread story? Oh my god, I am so honored to read it. Yeah, this is great. So what we're going to do, people, is Michelle's going to read this story, and we're going to excerpt it here because it's a little long for the interview maybe and if you want to hear the rest then there's going to be a bonus episode and you'll be able to hear the whole thing. You know, get excited. All right, Michelle, go ahead. One thing I liked about this story is that it kind of brings together my experience as, you know, a kid drawing up in New York with my experience working at the culinary center and I worked with amazing So once I did get the job, I worked with these amazing chefs who are a collection of wonderfully talented goofy nerds, right? They love to play and create and cuss and they're just like a lot of them are still my dear friends to this day. The gingerbread just for a little bit of context is something that I grew up with as a kid. My mom made these gingerbread houses. She planned them about six months out and constructed them over the course of a week and then invited neighborhood kids over to our house to destroy the gingerbread house. And it was 100 % edible. That was the only rule is she always put hours into this construction process and then just have it torn apart by like amazing little kids. What were they like? Oh my God. They were Some of them were Tudor style houses with white peppermint cones for, what do you call those things? Columns? Columns, yeah. Columns. Columns. A gingerbread house with columns. A gingerbread house with columns. She did a whole town one year, so a bunch of little houses. We made a Santa's workshop. We made a toy shop. So she made these little, basically little toys out of gingerbread and candy. Some of them were stopped it out of chocolate. Yeah, it's like, so they were a range of things. And every year was something, a chance to do something more creative. I'm going to read you this story. It's called "Under Construction." "Fucking gingerbread," Chef Jurgen said. Jack did open and sweaty after teaching classic pastry arts for six hours. His pale, staining uniform almost blending into one of the long white tables in the chef's office where he sat, stretching. Colored pencils and his mop of black hair were all that set the associate director of the pastry department apart from his surroundings. "What's crooked?" I asked them moments earlier, entering the office and passing along the other side to the table towards the printer. Since joining the International Culinary Center's Education Department, I adopted this as my customary greeting for the chefs. Chef Xavier, also sweaty but from the culinary department, glared impatiently from the computer station at the other side of the office. He'd swept into my office moments earlier, smelling like salted chicken to tell me that the printer was jammed, again. Like Jurgen, he was in the middle of a double teaching shift, Which meant that he had about a 90 minute break between classes He needed a print. He needed to print a handout for his class and he needed time for a few cigarettes outside There was no time to wait for the IT department. I'm not IT. I told him. I always told them that But you know as a computer. He said I don't know these shit Yes, chef. I opened a few panels and cleared the errant paper. Sweets and worrying dears told me that Xavier would be happy again. "Okay," he said with a smile and a clap of his hands. He rolled his body toward the printer to wait for his papers. I turned the door back to my own word, but the soft browns and reds and greens of Jordan's drawings stopped me. I sat down him. My body is suddenly heavy. I wouldn't be able to avoid Christmas with its jingling bells, snowy rom -coms, and warmly pictured family gatherings for much longer. I'd have to figure out something to say when asked about my holiday plans. Roasting chicken I would eat alone didn't sound so festive. Neither did saying I was estranged from my father and sister and have been since my mother died. Gingerbread houses always made me think of my mother. Christmas always made me think of the family I used to be close to. Almost everyone in the pastry department would draw, but Jurgen's lines reminded me the most of my mother's. I could see the formal training in both. The light strokes, swift moves that slowed down to the confidence their line placement grew. I looked at his hands filling in buildings and windows. "My mom used to make gingerbread houses," I said. "Oh, nice," he said in his liltin Austrian accent in English. I instantly felt stupid. I wanted to make them understand. Gingerbread. And that's how I say it with a capital G as a time, an event, maybe even a place, and at its simplest and purest, a housing project, an inversion of the one in which I drew up in East New York. I love that story so much, thank you so much for reading it, thank you for having me. Where can people follow you, your writing? My brand is Bedz Dysom, so that's B -E -D -S -T U -Y -S -O -M -M dot com. That's my website. And you can follow me, bedstice .com on Instagram. And that's where I do my writing. I'm currently working on a memoir of food, drinks, and family that this piece will be in. Bringing together more of those ideas. Like, you know, there's a piece about cereal and there's this piece about dating people and their drinks so things are like coming together. Hopefully that will find its way into the world pretty soon and I'm so excited to have the chance to sit with you Rose it's lovely. Oh my god it's wonderful and what about the Fulton Street Fellowship where can people find that? It's FultonStreetFellowship .org and it is a really great organization founded by myself and a local wine seller Chris Leon and what we do is we raise money to put black people and people who identify as black specifically into the wine industry. We do that through agitation and mentorship. We pay for scholarships to the Institute of Culinary Agitation's wine program and we offer them a chance to connect with people in the industry and find jobs, find mentorship and find each other, build a community. And now the ICC and the ICE, different things? Yeah. So the ICC RIP, that school closed in 2020, I know it broke my heart too. But the curriculum lives on through the Institute of Culinary Education, which is located in downtown Manhattan. And you will find actually many of the chefs who worked at ICC there, including Chef Yardin, who is still today, one of my dearest friends. And curriculum that you, when you were there, that you edited and then you wrote. You guys will see my words, my writing. I've worked on the culinary programs, the wine program, the pastry program. So I've worked on lots of different books over the years. Michelle, I didn't even ask you about for your local saying. Oh! Yeah. What's a local saying from your life that you want to share? You know, I was thinking about this. I think I texted you a one point something like I'm overthinking that like one of the local sayings But one of the ones that really sits out with me in new york that I think I use a lot is get out of here you know because This is the way you say it. It's like get out of here. You could say it in different ways and has different meanings like What get out of here or get out of here, you know, you do not intensely say fuck out of here. You know It means so many things. It's like, or it's a rejection of something. It's a disbelief. It's just like, oh, you're like, yeah, you know, it's great. You know, what I like to is that you see other communities use it. So I live in East Flatbush now, and I hear Caribbean's use it. And they say, did I, you know, you hear the Italian Americans use it? Yeah, everybody says, did I hear it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like bacon, egg and cheese on a roll, salt, pepper, no ketchup. It's like, it's just one of those things that just comes and it really has a meaning. - I love this, it's like positive, it can also be like positive disbelief, like I got some really good news for you. You're like, I didn't know you had a piece of the New Yorker, get out of here. - Yeah, exactly, and it's like, yeah. - You gotta tell me this shit. - Yeah, that's what it is, like, yeah, fuck out of here. - Write about that, write about that more, please. - I know. - We've been friends for years. I'm like, what about your publications? Oh, just the New Yorker, yeah. - I know, I know, I am really modest. I am really proud of piece though. It's called the Christmas wreath if you want to check it out in New Yorker and it is a true story of the time where my mother hid razor blades in a Christmas wreath to keep people from stealing it off the door. Oh my god. And the gingerbread makes a house appearance, makes an appearance there, so does my dog, but it's very much about what family is and what it means to build a home. Thank you for sharing these stories about your mom and your family and your childhood. - Thanks. - Thank you for bringing them to the show. - Oh my God, super fun. - I'm so glad you're here working in this world. I'm so glad we're friends. And thanks again for coming on the show. - Anytime, anytime. You can't get rid of me, I love you. (laughing) - I love you too. To our listeners, keep an eye out for the bonus episode of Michelle's full piece about the gingerbread house, wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. at the link in the notes. Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and filmed by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Gingerbread Under Construction ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e3-michele-thomas-under-construction-gingerbread/) [ Funny Toasts from around the World ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e1-trailer-funny-toasts-from-around-the-world/) ### The People of the Dark Water URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/the-people-of-the-dark-water/ Last updated: 2026-08-16T08:00:27.000Z In southeastern North Carolina, a river winds through the Sandhills, dark as a moonless night, dark as the water moccasin that glides through her currents. Its banks are lined with pine, juniper, and poplar trees. In the stillness, you might hear wild turkeys conversing or the snort of a whitetail deer. As Turtle Island was colonized, this blackwater river was a sanctuary for both my Indigenous ancestors and people on the run from enslavers. The Lumbee River is still a retreat from the modern world. **Roots by the River: the Legacy of the Lumbee** The remnants of tribal nations from Algonquian, Iroquoian, and Siouan language families along the East Coast sought refuge in these forested wetlands. Even as much of their culture and language was lost, the survivors made this land home and became known as “*The People of the Dark Water*,” the Lumbee. This land is still our home. **Our Existence Proclaims: We Are Still Here** As the largest tribe east of the Mississippi, the Lumbee are a testament to resilience in the face of centuries of colonialism and racism in the South. While much has been taken from us—just as it has from all Indigenous peoples on Turtle Island—the Lumbee endure. By our very existence, we reclaim our story and begin to heal generations of trauma. For many, traditional Indigenous values were preserved only in the stories of our elders. But today, a mass reconnection is happening. Many among us hear the call of our ancestors—not to keep old wounds open, but to heal them. To grow rather than remain stagnant. A re-Indigenization is spreading across tribal communities, and we Lums are no exception. Beadwork, ribbon skirts, drum circles, reconnecting as caretakers of the land, ceremonial burnings, and sacred medicines—all these traditions are being woven back together, helping us stand strong once again. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Ribbon-Skirt.jpeg) **The author’s ribbon skirt* Lumbee historian Malinda Maynor Lowery captures this spirit in her book *The Lumbee Indians: An American Struggle.* > We are not struggling for identity; Lumbees know exactly who we are and what it means to belong. We have awakened to the sacredness of our stories and the power they hold in guiding us forward. Walking the Red Road is not easy. Many still fail to see our value, claiming there is little—if any—culture left. And while federal recognition continues to elude us, I ask, “Do we blame the victim for what the oppressor has stolen? Do we finish the colonizer’s work by letting our ancestors’ lines vanish? Should we abandon those who lost so much?” No. As a tribal community, we have decided that the oppressor has already lost. They will not see the day we disappear—that decision belongs to Creator. Until then, we keep moving forward. Our journey has no end. Our ancestors prayed for survival; now, we strive to thrive in their honor. **Growing up Lumbee** Going “down home” has been a tradition since childhood. As a little girl, I’d ride with my grandma on Sunday afternoons, making the 45-minute drive to where our roots lay. The summer sun and humidity left my skin warm and sticky. I’d draw my name in the sand with a stick as gnats buzzed into every crease of my face. Sipping on an ice cold Pepsi and snacking on a pack of Lay’s peanut butter crackers. Or as my elders would call it, “a drink and a nab.” Grandma never let me help her pick cucumbers, squash, or corn in the fields, and she certainly wouldn’t let me near the “baccer.” She was too afraid I’d get bitten by a snake. Even though she was scared herself, she’d spend hours in the sun, gathering what the earth provided. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Dominique-Family-2.JPEG) **The author’s grandmother, second from right, with a few of her 16 siblings* Under the shade of a tree, she and her sisters washed and sorted the harvest in five-gallon buckets, filling Ziploc bags for the freezer. Their conversations floated by in a unique dialect I now translate for my own kids: stories of how the Lumbee and Tuscarora ran off the KKK, how Aunt Shirley killed a king snake with a shovel, or how many babies were lost because “them doctors didn’t wanna work on no Indians.” When the work was done, we’d head into town for hot dogs at Fran’s and ice cream from the gas station. Little me didn’t understand the power of “down home.” I didn’t yet know the stories held by the land and trees or the protection they gave. But I do now. Every time my tiny, jelly-sandal-clad feet touched that sandy soil, I was connecting with a story that almost never was. *All photos courtesy of Dominique Burleson.* --- ***The People of the Dark Water*** *The Lumbee Tribe has been recognized by the state of North Carolina since 1885\. In 1956, the United States Congress recognized the tribe while denying the Lumbee people federal benefits as such, a situation the Lumbees are still fighting to correct.* ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Dominique-Family-1.JPEG) **Dominique Burleson’s Lumbee great-grandmother, second from left, with her siblings.* *The* [*Lumbee Tribe*](https://www.lumbeetribe.com/history-and-culture?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=the-people-of-the-dark-water)*, known as “the People of the Dark Water” identify themselves on their website as “survivors of tribal nations from the Algonquian, Iroquoian, and Siouan language families, including the Hatteras, the Tuscarora, and the Cheraw.”* *Heritage languages of this amalgamated tribe were lost to linguicide.* *The Lumbee tribe’s site details a* [*series of Federal Commissioned Reports*](https://www.lumbeetribe.com/history--culture?ref=mododibere.com#:~:text=D'Arcy%20McNickle%2C%20from%20the,still%20persisted%20among%20these%20people%22.)*, including by D’Arcy McNickle of the Office of Indian Affairs, who came to the tribe in 1936* > *to collect affidavits and other data from Lumbee people registering as Indian under the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934\. McNickle stated, "…there are reasons for believing that until comparatively recently some remnant of language still persisted among these people.”* *Lumbees today have a unique way of speaking English that has been* [*studied as a distinct dialect*](https://www.ncpedia.org/lumbee/language-and-culture?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=the-people-of-the-dark-water) *by linguists at North Carolina State University.* *You can hear the dialect Dominique mentions in her essay in this 1999 documentary by* [*The Language and Life Project*](https://languageandlife.org/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=the-people-of-the-dark-water)*.* --- ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Dominique-Burleson.JPEG) Dominique Burleson **Meet Dominique Burleson** Dominique Burleson is the owner of the North Carolina bookshop [Paperbacks and Frybread](https://paperbacksandfrybread.com/blogs/news?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=the-people-of-the-dark-water). A member of the Lumbee Tribe, Dominique participates in the re-Indigenization movement of her generation by helping people “decolonize their bookshelves” through entrepreneurship, activism, writing, speaking and curriculum design. **DOWNLOAD** Dominique’s guide on how to [Decolonize your Bookshelf](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PdWyqFufLHPFbz4eywjM8g5XEP-SmfD8/view?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=the-people-of-the-dark-water) for book recs, resources and indigenous creators to follow. **PAY WHAT YOU WISH** for her list of [Banned & Challenged Books for Collective Liberation.](https://paperbacksandfrybread.com/products/sh-t-hits-the-fan-booklist-for-collective-liberation?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=the-people-of-the-dark-water) **ORDER** a book, audiobook, gift or gift card from the [Paperbacks and Frybread](https://paperbacksandfrybread.com/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=the-people-of-the-dark-water) shop! ### Brooklyn Sommelier: A Day in the Life URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/brooklyn-sommelier-a-day-in-the-life/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T03:06:59.000Z Hi, I’m Michele! Like my friend Rose Thomas, I live in Brooklyn, New York. But unlike RT, I also grew up in Brooklyn, with the diverse sounds, languages, and stories of New York City all around me. I started writing as a little girl on the old Smith-Corona typewriter I found in my mom’s closet. Today, I work as a writer, educator, and full-time wine buyer (which is how I met Rose Thomas, but we’ll come back to that). I have degrees in Communication and Journalism, as well as Creative Writing, and have studied French cooking, Pastry Arts, and wine at the French Culinary Institute (R.I.P.), before becoming a Certified Sommelier. My writing has appeared in [*The New Yorker*](https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-christmas-wreath?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=introducing-michele-thomas-issue-2), Edible Brooklyn, Edible Manhattan, a bunch of culinary textbooks, and a book to two of my own, most notably *Culinary Careers for Dummies* (Wiley, 2011). When I met RT, she was a wine rep, and I was pretty new to the wine business. She would come by Greene Grape, the Brooklyn wine shop where I work, with a bag full of wine and stories — you can think of them as little bios — for each one. In no time, we clicked over our shared love of language, travel, and of course, wine. However, what sealed the deal was one particular [*Barbera d’Alba*](https://artisanalcellars.com/producers/gian-luca-colombo-segni-di-langa/?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=introducing-michele-thomas-issue-2). A regal ruby color, it smelled of crushed roses, cherry blossoms, fennel and one more thing I was trying to sniff out with my nose in the glass when suddenly, mortifyingly, my glasses slipped off my face and into the spit bucket, which was filled with about 3 inches of wine backwash. I remember feeling frozen in time and embarrassment for a second, and then the sounds of laughter, as Rose Thomas and I cackled at the ridiculous moment. A friendship was born. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/mt-rt.jpg) Rose Thomas Bannister + Michele Thomas #### A Day at the Shop My day begins hours before the first customers arrive, with coffee, a decidedly non-alcoholic aperitivo. “Go-Go Juice,” my mother used to call it. Dark and a little bitter, the ritual and the taste work together to get my mind ready for the day ahead. I keep the lights dim for a bit, savoring the quiet, I tell myself, but it’s just as useful for figuring out the musical vibe of the day. For a small shop like mine, and indeed for any retailer, the vibe created by background music is pretty important. So much so that the effect of music on customers has been studied for decades. The right music is also helpful for me as I focus on everything from order and sales reports to website maintenance, pursuing new business, dispatching staff on deliveries, and writing tasting notes for each and every wine and spirit in the shop. But first, coffee. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Spit-Bucket.jpg) **My desk, on any given day, but especially during OND* During that first cup of coffee at the shop, I wander the sales floor, taking note of what needs replenishing, and strategizing about what holes I have to fill. *Is there room for Greco di Tufo in the Italian section? Should I find another orange wine from California?* I take notes, prioritizing tasks for the day. Then, I sit down, put on some tunes — I’m partial to Old School hip hop and soul, but everyone loves Fleetwood Mac — and get to work. *I have how many emails?* The stock team leader comes in first, usually an hour after me, and we chat about the day’s delivery schedules, orders going out to customers, and products coming into the shop. This will be one of our busier days, by the looks of things. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Wine-Model.jpeg) **Styling photos outside of the wine shop* The sun is out on Fulton Street, so I grab the camera and take a few photos for the store’s website and social media. Posing bottles on the street, I run into colleagues from Provisions, the grocery market next door, the owner of the restaurant down the street, Ralph, the hardware store guy, and even a few customers out on a stroll with their dogs (I keep a few Milk Bones in my pocket for just such an emergency). ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Dog-Neighbor.jpeg) **Moments with customers like Mozzie, seen here with Kenneth, one of his owners* The first deliveries of the day arrive, and I step back inside to count and sign off on what’s arrived before the stock team loads the bottles into the store’s temperature-controlled cellar. I load the paperwork into our inventory system. The pace of the day is starting to pick up. Our Sales Associates are arriving soon, as are wine reps for the day’s first tasting appointments. The store will be open in 20 minutes. I have just enough email time to help a client choose wine for an reception. *How many folks? How many hours?* These are the key questions that help us settle on a total of 18 bottles for 25-ish people. It’s noon. With a flip of a sign, the store is open and the first regulars come in—the barber for a nip of Fernet-Branca (this guy has amazing style), the gardener for a bottle of Gruner Veltliner and a chat about books, trips, or recipes. Wine Rep #1 comes in trailing a wheeled suitcase of wines, and maybe a whiskey or two. “Hey, how you doing?” I say. It sounds more like “hey-ow-you-doo-inn.” No matter where I am, my Brooklyn accent shows up when I say hello. I usher them into the back of the shop, where my desk is. With practiced finesse, they maneuver around the registers, past the liquor boxes, into the office. “Pretty good,” they say. “How’s things? Business good?” “Yeah, pretty busy!” I say. “It’s that time of year.” “Is it January yet?” They say, and we chuckle darkly in OND — the wine trade’s acronym for October, November, and December, the busiest, most hectic months in the hospitality business. Just about 25% of wine and spirits sales in the U.S. take place during those three months. Everyone is frantically trying to buy and sell as much as possible before closing the books on the calendar year. January, when the parties end, and folks go “dry” for a month, is a chance for the professionals to rest, reset, and go home early. “Whatcha got today?” I say, grabbing my tasting glass and a spit bucket. I am suddenly very conscious of my glasses. The rep puts the lineup on my desk, or a sturdy box nearby— this is New York, after all. Who’s got a big office? If it’s their first tasting of the day, the rep may taste with me to see how the wines are showing. Like people, wines have their good days and off days. We start with the whites. Tasting pours are small, usually an ounce or so. The reasons for this are two-fold. Nobody needs to get tipsy at noon, and because the reps are also showing the wine at other stores and restaurants. Tasting bottles need to last all day, just like the reps and buyers who are sampling them. I assess the color and clarity of the wine first. *How does it look in the glass? Does it sparkle and reflect the light?* I imagine how it would look in a dimly lit dining room. Next, my nose gets to work looking for faults like cork taint, but also for the story this wine is trying to tell. I sniff for fruit notes and other keys to the terroir and winemaking, hints of soil and vegetation, flowers, herbs, moss, river stones and salty sea spray. Clove and vanilla let me know if the wine has spent time in oak barrels, their absence that the winemaker chose stainless steel to preserve the purity of the fruit. Tasting goes like this: The first sip is to *feel* the wine. *Does it swish like silk against my teeth and cheeks, or is there a grip?* *Is it creamy?* The more my mouth waters, the higher the acidity and zestiness. I swish the wine about in my mouth before shooting it out as a small stream into the spit bucket. Reflexively, I push my glasses up my nose. The second sip is about flavor and feeling. *Does this wine taste the way it smells? Do the flavors linger? Are they shy?* I imagine the wine as a personification of itself. Crisp and professional, like Sancerre on a ski vacation? Sounds like [*Erbaluce*](https://greenegrapewine.com/products/erbaluce-di-caluso-etichetta-verde-2022?utm%5Fsource=mododiberemagazine.beehiiv.com&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=introducing-michele-thomas-issue-2) to me. I ask myself if I can sell this, and more importantly, is it right for the customers I see daily or weekly, going to brunch and birthday parties, provisioning themselves for an evening of “Vanderpump Rules” or just hanging out after dinner. These are not things to be taken lightly. I want to help my customers have a good time, no matter what they’re doing. I spit again. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/erbaluce.jpeg) **Never heard of Erbaluce? Imagine Sancerre on a ski vacation!* **Illustration by Giulia Àlvarez-Katz* Then I ask myself if the bottle fits the store’s mission to showcase wine and spirits made by small, independent makers, farmers, and families around the globe. It’s not an easy question. Sometimes the answer doesn’t come to me right away. Sometimes, the answer is not what I want it to be, but I’m okay with that. I have to be. Otherwise, I’m just buying for myself and not for my customers—who are also my neighbors and friends. I take a swig of water. I sniff something that’s not wine to reset my nose. My cup of coffee, perhaps, or the sleeve of my sweater. The rep opens another bottle, a red this time, and we begin again. I make extra sure my glasses are secure. ### ▷S3E1 Funny Toasts From Around the World URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e1-trailer-funny-toasts-from-around-the-world/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T04:38:47.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-it/s3e1/trailer/divertenti-brindisi) Calabrian rhyming toasts. A drinking song from Padua. Kinetic toasts from France and Spain. Taiwanese dialect for “Bottoms up!” Modo di Bere host Rose Thomas shares funny drinking sayings from around the world in the Season Three trailer for the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. Never stop learning how to say cheers, wherever you go, whatever you like to drink. Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and filmed by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio and video edited by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Michele's Shift Drink ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e2-michele-thomas-bed-stuy-somm/) [ Venice Spritz Magic ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e12-venice-spritz-magic/) ### ▷S2E12 Venice Spritz Magic URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e12-venice-spritz-magic/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T04:40:49.000Z Rose Thomas spills the prosecco on Italian swears, her favorite Italian gesture, the ultimate spritz recipe, and the bartender travel advice that could cure your ennui. This travel story episode reveals more background about the name "Modo di Bere" and RT's frame of mind as she claimed permission to enjoy her first visit to Venice. Referenced in the episode: [Bele Casel Prosecco from Asolo DOCG](https://www.belecasel.com/en/?ref=mododibere.com) [Ca' Nigra Lagoon Resort](https://www.histouring.com/en/historical-places/hotel-ca'-nigra/?ref=mododibere.com) **Expand for auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript (laughing) (speaking in foreign language) - This episode features strong drinks as well as strong language. Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. Today, I'm sharing a travel story I wrote about my first time in Venice on the trip in 2022, where I also got the idea from Modo di Bere. I recently returned to Venice for the second time, where I witnessed a falcon attempting to board the Vaporetto. That is a story for another day. Before I share my first impressions of Venice, I want to say a special thank you to my Patreon supporters, to everyone who has shared a written review, or sent me a note on social media to let me know what you think of the show. You are 100 % what keeps me going in this work of mine. This 2\. To stay up to date on Season 3, which is coming soon, please subscribe to my newsletter at MododiBere.com. I got called for a wine gig in Italy just as the COVID stricken world began to open up. The pandemic still felt like a bad movie that just wouldn't end. And I was bone deep in burnout after surviving sirens and morgue trucks, American mask fights, shuttered rock clubs, and the hell of remote school. Springtime in Italy sounded so nice that I spent weeks before the trip, mildly convinced I'd die in a car crash on some obscure mountain road. I didn't die, so on the last day of my trip my reward was seeing Venice. I rolled my red suitcase back and forth, gazing at the blue dot on my phone, as if it would help me find my hotel. "What should I do in Venice?" I'd asked winemaker Paolo Ferrero of Bellecassell over a glass of Oslo Prosecco, so replete with terroir, one could see the story of the land in the shadow the liquid cast on a wine barrel turned on its side for a table. I'm not kidding. That's what they call a glass of wine in Veneto. Lombra. Shadow. I had a few days free to visit producers like Pala, and I learned that Venetian wine sellers of yore kept their wines cool in the shade by scooching their Prosecco stands around the San Marco bell tower as if it were a sundial. And Venice, Pell had answered, "Get lost. Walk. Take in all the sounds. Forget yourself." She said I'd love the local language there. I asked her what the words or accent sounded like. "You'll know it when you hear it," was all she would say. I wanted to take Pell's advice, but I hadn't planned on getting lost before checking into my hotel. Venice is not a blue dot sort of place. I'd have to rely on how my father taught me to travel. Forget the internet. Hit whatever watering hole had evolved from the bell tower scene and make friends. As soon as I'd dropped off the suitcase. I'd passed three or four times through the same corridor when a panned handler pointed a finger over his shoulder and intoned. "La," he was right. The gate was there. I rolled my stuff into the Ca -Nigra Lagoon Resort Hotel. At the front desk, I told Narciso of the mischievous goatee that I knew lombra and desired more words like it. He let slip which cestiere he and his friends frequent after work. Conoregio is the most of the districts described by the special Italian word for "neighborhood" that lets you know that there are six of them. I wouldn't come close to exploring all six zones in just one day, but I'd go out with a local saying from Narciso that I could use to break the ice. "L 'acqua marcise e pali" Narciso wrote it down. He told me it means "water rots the boat poles, and that it's used to admonish anyone who'd request a drink of water instead of something stronger. Selling wine in New York City introduced me to people from all over Italy. Their linguistic diversity was as vast and varied as the native grapes that drew me to Italian wine. I collected the wine names like baseball carts, L 'Ambrusco di Sorbara, Malvasia di Lippari, Palla Palagrello Bianco. The deeper I got into the grapes, the more sayings and dialect came my way. I started noticing idioms that expressed the same idea with local variations in language, agricultural products, and animals. Mere days before Venice, high on surviving my first time driving in Italy, I'd felt my definite belief that It's way too hard to become a wine writer, dissolve into the modest idea that I should start a blog or something. I could bring in the language stuff. Then I realized it was called "modo di bere," way of drinking, a pun on the Italian word for a saying, "modo di bere." I sat up behind the steering wheel and thought, "That's a good idea." it was time to start having a little fun. In other words, water is bad for you. Drink wine. Narciso's local example of what water destroys — poles for tying up gondolas — was the third such phrase I'd collected during my visit to Veneto and Friulio Venezia Giulia. The first, in Italian Italian, "l 'acqua farugine" means "water makes rust." The second, in Friulano, sounded like "lagge je buine per croce. Water is for frogs." Narciso gave me a tour of the boat dock, explaining that it's luxurious to have one and that it's called a cabana. We toured the hotel, Narciso dishing 17th century gossip about ambassadors and courtesans. My red rolling suitcase matched the walls of my room. I photographed the colorful glass chandelier, marveled a little at the private veranda, and went back out in search of the COVID test I'd need to reenter the states. The pharmacy was closed for lunch. All right, I'd eat too. I approached a tiny bar protruding from a window. A waitress came out the door and simply said no. I didn't understand what I'd done wrong, only ducked like a dog into a big restaurant that seemed open, if entirely empty. Its sign advertised gluten -free pizza. A Sri Lankan waiter of about 17 led me to the garden, which was still encased in plastic, like it did not believe the spring was here to stay. I was joined in the garden by a group of mechanics or something. They sat with their boiler suits peeled down at the waist, like half -open bananas. The mechanics faced each other at a long table across the aisle to my right. My table faced the next garden over, which was boldly open to the air. There sat an older man in profile sunning himself like a cat. He moved only to twitch his cheeks, crack his craggy fingers, sip his white wine, or let out a few measures of stentorian coughing. The oldest mechanic either knew the guy or found the cough as striking as I did. He'd imitate the sound to his buddies after each round of Qatar. "You'll know it when you hear it," Paola had said of the Venetian dialect. The mechanic's conversation started to sound like Blah blah blah Mona blah blah Mona Aha, I'd been invented to long enough to pick up the regional word for pussy If you learn Italian in a restaurant like I did you start with one part rude words one part food words and one part dishes Capsa be steka Coltello dick steak, knife. Either the mechanic's conversation concerned explicit subjects, or they were using Mona, the way many Italians, in casual contexts, use "cazzo." Days into learning restaurant Italian, I'd remarked that the sound of them talking to each other was like "blah blah blah cazzo, blah blah blah cazzo." "It's the same for you guys and fuck," my colleague had replied. I'd spent the next several years picking up local slang from every Italian I met, and the cocks would far outnumber the vulvas. Either the mechanic's frequent monas were a regional specialty, or my instructors had been holding out on me when it came to the emphatic feminine. The local language had found me. It was time to make friends. I had liquid courage in the form of an apparel spritz. I'm kidding, apparel is not so alcoholic, perfect for day drinking, but I'd struggled with my sudden desire to order one for lunch. The Italians I'd met ordered spritzes in the late afternoon only. They take this gustatory time of day stuff so seriously. Typical Americans ignore them, consuming both cappuccinos and spritzes for brunch. As an obedient student of Italian customs, I tried to win in Rome, but I wasn't in Rome, and I wanted a spritz. When I was a bartender, I made so many damned spritzes, and I advised all the customers who complained of ennui to go on vacation alone. It was my turn to travel. I ordered a spritz. In a matter of hours I'd learn that Venice is a magical place, where you drink nothing but spritzes, day and night, made not only from apparel, but from the local red spirits' select. A spritz with select is more bitter than apparel, less sweet than Campari, and they throw in an olive as often as an orange. Despite my ignorance, Venetian spritz magic had already done its work on me. Full of prosecco and vivid herbaceous liqueur, I strode over to Ioperae, the workers, and sat down at their table's open seat. "Hello," I said in Italian. "I am interested in local language. For instance," I told them. "I have learned. L 'acqua marcise e pie." Introductions turned to jokes about ancient rivalries I could not begin to fathom. The outsider accused, I think, of eating cats. I decided I must have misheard. Ricardo, the oldest, the cough imitator, he of the white mustache and the sweater with thick horizontal stripes, became even more animated when I mentioned the boat poles, Pali. Narciso had already informed me that the local accent drops the central single L, but Riccardo held up his hand in a sort of "okay" sign, the Italian gesture for "listen up, I am teaching you something." He plunked this handshape through the air, emphasizing each syllable, like a note on a stave. "L 'acqua, marcisse, i pai." Turns out the second word was not quite "marcice," Italian for "rot." Ricardo insisted I repeat "s" with perhaps a hint of "s -marcice." A freshly minted blogger, I was filming Ricardo with my phone. An off -camera mechanic pointed a finger into the frame and prompted Ricardo to teach me the second half of the saying. "I learned so many versions of the waters bad for you, saying, without ever encountering a second half." "And the wine?" the man asked, in Italian. "The wine," Ricardo answered, "makes you sing." I knew I'd captured the o 'er -recording of my folkloric project, even as I'd just begun. Stuffed with local language and sad pizza, I receded to my own tovelino. The mechanics paid up and left me alone amid the see -through plastic walls. I stared at the old cat in the next garden over. He twitched his cheek. "L 'acqua marcise pie," I thought. songs. Italy, Venice, had given me permission not only to enjoy myself, but to sing. I sat (singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language) I hope you enjoyed this video. I hope you enjoyed Venetian Spritz Magic and any other episodes of Moto D Berry that you've heard. If you have a dream that feels impossible right now, I hope you can take some time for yourself doing something fun, whatever that looks like for you. I still stand by the advice from my bartending days that a little solo travel really helps open our minds to consider new possibilities. In case you didn't know, I produced "Moto di Beria" by myself, along with the Italian version of the podcast, "Moto di Beria Italiano," including all the interviews, booking, recording, promotion, and editing, with a tiny bit of audio help from Steve Silverstein. I have a collaborator on my YouTube travel show, now in production. You can watch the pilot on the MotoDBerry YouTube channel, but Amelia Agamirzaii and I are still two ladies wearing a lot of hats. The MotoDBerry podcast really is made possible thanks to listeners like you. Please consider taking a moment now to visit patreon .com /MotoDBerry and sign up as a patron for as little as $5 a month. Thank you for listening wherever you go and whatever you like to drink always remember to enjoy yourself and to never stop learning Support us on patreon grab the newsletter at moto de berry calm and subscribe to the youtube channel at moto de berry to watch the travel Show moto de berry TV Music for the show was composed by arcilia prosbury for the band. Oh, purchase their music at the link in the notes. Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Video version by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Funny Toasts from Around the World ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s3e1-trailer-funny-toasts-from-around-the-world/) [ A Lot of Life to Live ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e11-sam-bail-third-place-bar-nyc/) ### Bagpipes Are My Homeland URL: https://www.mododibere.com/magazine/bagpipes-are-my-homeland/ Last updated: 2026-08-16T06:35:57.000Z It was quiet at the Brooklyn wine shop, the late summer light our only customer. My manager and I had nothing to do but discuss my big trip. It was my first job in wine retail after sommelier school. I drank enough discounted bottles to swirl away the crummy pay. Now I had asked to take almost three weeks off. I didn’t get fired for this, but I could tell it was a sin. “Where all are you and Bob going in Scotland?” my manager asked. “We’re flying into Edinburgh. We’ll have a drink at my dad’s favorite bar, then we’ll head to Glasgow for the world pipe band championship. We’ll drive around, then end up in Oban, at the piobaireachd competition. That’s like solo classical bagpipe music. Actually older than classical–” “Yes. You told me.” my manager cut it in. “But where *else* are you going? What hotels are you staying in?” I voiced an uncertain “Uh…,” taking the cue from his expression to feel embarrassed. “You’re going for almost three weeks!” he exclaimed. “You really haven’t planned *anything*?” Personally, I thought knowing how to pronounce *piobaireachd* was pretty good preparation for my pilgrimage to the homeland of my father, a master piper as well as a master falconer, a brewer of mead, a weaver of cloth, and a composer of blistering limericks. Besides, he was coming with us. I’d been told my grandfather’s ashes were interred within the walls of Deacon Brodie’s pub in Edinburgh. I knew in my heart that raising an amber dram to my grandfather’s ghost with my sweetheart and my dad before driving to Glasgow to bathe in the drones and drums of my people was the perfect *plan*. But my manager had a strong case of “you’re doing it wrong” face, and it affected me. I called my dad. “Hey dad.” “Hiya dearie.” “Listen, what are we doing in Scotland?” “We have a pint at Deacon Brodie’s, then we go to Glasgow for the pipe band championship, have some adventures, then end up in Oban for the piobaireachd.” *Pee-ber-och,* a little cough at the end. *O-bun,* hard stress on the first syllable. I was a mixologist before I turned to wine, but it was my dad who educated me about Scotch. He taught me to pronounce Laphroaig, a whisky so smoky my first swallow brought on a brief vision that my blood had been replaced with a campfire. He taught me how to unlock the aromas from the surface of the liquid with a single drop of water. It’s *La-froy-uh*, no hard ‘g’, but no one ever understood that at American bars, so I gave up saying it right with everyone but him. “Yes, I know,” I said, channeling my manager’s anxiety that I hadn’t done my homework. “But what *else* are we going to do?” My father, Tom, spent the formative years of his childhood in the land of his Scottish stepfather, Mac Campbell, along with his Boston-bred mother and his two half siblings. In the hamlet of Blaringone, outside of Dollar, little Tom chased rabbits, picked up the Doric dialect, and discovered the one talent that would hold his attention for a lifetime: the bagpipes. He’d join the US Navy, move and marry many times, but he never stopped playing hornpipes and reels on the Highland pipes. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Tom-Busking-Deacon-Brodies-2001.JPEG) **Tom busking at Deacon Brodie’s in 2001* I didn’t meet my father until I was 24\. When I tracked him down, on Myspace, he was living in Amarillo. My dad is so many people’s best friend. When I finally got the chance to have him be mine, it was a request from one of his “top 8 friends” that let me know he had gotten the letter I had written, the one that said “I’m pretty sure you’re my father.” That top friend was a Texan named Bruce with a cowboy hat and a handlebar mustache. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Bruce-Tiffin-in-Silverton.JPEG) **Bruce in 2023* When I showed up in Amarillo, Bruce was my welcoming committee. His first story was about the road trip he and Tom took to Scotland to bury Mac Campbell. They’d started in Edinburgh, watched the world pipe band championship in Glasgow, and ended up in Oban at the piobaireachd competition. In between, they had adventures. Absinthe moonshine, talking to seagulls adventures. They adopted an incontinent hedgehog named Hamish. They gate-crashed a party for the Duke of Argyll. A girl with a debilitating condition was briefly healed by bagpipe music. In short, they ran out of time to bury my grandfather. They’d shown up at the cemetery on the last day, only to be turned away for lack of the proper paperwork. “Well, that’s unfortunate,” drawled Bruce’s magnificent mustache. Bruce and Tom were back at Deacon Brodie’s. They stared at the hard plastic box of my grandfather’s ashes, wrapped in bedraggled brown paper. “He was *unsettled*, Tom,” said Bruce. “All those times he fell off your mantle in Amarillo.” He prounced it *Amarila.* “I know, Bruce,” said Tom. “But what are we gonna do now? Mail his ashes back to Texas?” Archie the barman was well acquainted with their quest. He turned around. “Good lord, you can’t put your father at the mercy of the United States mail!” Archie exclaimed. “With the luck you’ve got, he’ll wind up in Dubuque!” Tom and Bruce sipped their Guinesses, forlorn. “Oh, give him here,” said Archie. “He’ll be safe on this shelf until you make it back.” Guarded by a capable barman in an establishment named for a disreputable cabinet-maker, my grandfather’s ghost was in fine station. An impromptu wake arose, with my dad on the pipes. An old man entered through the side door. “Who died?” bellowed the old man. “Mac Macready Cambell!” answered Bruce. “Mac! I knew ‘im from the Royal Bank! Mac and my grandma, Deborah, used to have lunch every day when they worked in Edinburgh. They’d swing by for a gin after work before taking the train back to Clackmannanshire. The old man called everyone who remembered Mac and they all came down to the pub. Someone ordered a dram and put it next to Mac’s box. Whenever it evaporated, Archie poured him another. And so my grandfather rested in whisky peace, at least until the remodel that may or may not have interred him in a soffit. I never met my grandfather, but my dad says Mac was so stubborn that he and another driver faced off for hours on a narrow country road while Deborah and the kids waited to see which man would back up and let the other pass. This is apparently a Scottish trait. When I tried to make Tom let me plan our trip, he would only repeat that we’d hear the pipe bands in Glasgow on August 12 and the piobaireachd in Oban on August 23\. I couldn’t get him to name a single town where we might stop in between. He only agreed to go fly fishing. I threw myself into internet research on the one plan we had. My dad admitted there was good fishing in the river Spey, the namesake of Speyside whisky. “It isn’t smoky at all,” he told me. The opposite of Laphroiag and the other intense Islay whiskies from the Hebrides. *Eye-lay.* When we got on the plane, our itinerary was still a bagpipe trout sandwich. We did have lodging planned for the first night, but the Edinburgh Fringe Festival was on, and with all the weirdos about, “my friend Liz” wasn’t enough of an address for a certain humorless customs agent. My sweetheart, my dad and I are all musicians. Bob and I play guitar and I write songs. We all look a little interesting, especially my dad with his Gandalf beard and inclination to convey information in maximum color. Our plan to amble around the country was as unbelievable to the customs agent as it had been to my manager. I really think we might have been deported if there hadn’t been a shift change. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Spontaneous-Amigos.JPEG) **Suspiciously spontaneous en route to Scotland* Instead, we made it to Deacon Brodie’s and raised a glass to Mac. I kept trying to ask for Mac’s exact location in the walls, but my dad kept misdirecting me. My grandfather has ascended into legend, and that’s where he must remain. We had just enough time to take in Edinburgh’s scholarly, sand-colored architecture before it was time to drive to the Glasgow green. The pipers and drummers came from all over Scotland and the world. Tartan kilts and matching socks gleamed in the welcoming sunshine. A spectator fed an ice cream cone to two sheepdogs adorned with little bows. The din was glorious. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Dogs-of-Glasgow-Green.JPEG) **I think they like the music!* Before I met my father, no one told me that he was a musician like me. We played a show together when I first went out to meet him in Texas. When he blew up his pipes after I played my guitar at the 806 Coffee Shop, I knew he was good. I also loved the sound. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Meeting-my-birth-father.jpg) **RT and Tom playing a show together the weekend they met, 2009* My kinship with my father was an obvious and blood-filling joy I hadn’t known that I’d lost. We have the same eyes, the same messiness, the same need to know everything, the same immodest, mad-scientist skills in the kitchen. We have the same somewhat rare compulsion to give the world new songs to sing. There in Glasgow, that homecoming drone my father played for me in Texas was multiplied by hundreds. All the drums ordered us all to fight for our clan, or at least, to dance. After the competition and an afternoon in the beer tent, the musicians form a giant mass band on the green and play Scotland the Brave. I caught up with my lost culture in one massive blast of sound. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/World-Pipe-Band-Competition.JPEG) **World Pipe Band Competition, Glasgow Green, 2017* In the beer tent, I quizzed a merry dame about the terminology I’d seen on billboards on the road to Glasgow. “What exactly,” I asked, “is ‘proper food’?” “Chips,” the woman answered without hesitation. She pronounced it like *chehps.* “What would *improper* food be, then?” “Macaroni!” I was about to learn that macaroni and cheese happens to be a popular pub food in Scotland, but my god, she was right about the fish and chips. The version I’d tried in America was nothing next to the crispy-light battered whitefish and dreamy potato planks I ordered for lunch on the road every day for the next three weeks. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/07/Fish-and-Chips.JPEG) **Proper food* My dad, who had refused to name a single additional town he’d like to visit on our tour, was suddenly unveiled as an expert tour guide. He knew the full history of Arbroath smokies, a culturally protected method for preserving haddock, but didn’t mention it until we stopped for lunch in Arbroath. In Cullen, he recommended the fish chowder like a local and explained that it’s called “skink.” From Inverness to Banff to Orkney, my father systematically conspired with the misty heather of fortune and the salty air of pure charisma to persuade me that the proper way to travel is to plan nothing. Instead, roll into town, order a pint, spit a limerick or strike up a tune until you’re friends with everyone in sight. And yes, we went fly fishing. ### ▷S2E11 A Lot of Life to Live: Sam Bail's Post-Alcohol Community URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e11-sam-bail-third-place-bar-nyc/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T04:43:26.000Z Sam Bail was feeling better. So much better that two months into her sobriety experiment, she knew she wasn’t going back to drinking alcohol. But she missed her softball team, and all the other relationships she made at her local watering hole—her “third place,” where she socialized when not at work or at home in a tiny apartment. And this is New York. In a city that has everything, was nursing a seltzer all night really Sam’s only option? Find out what Rose Thomas thinks of Dry January, listen while she and Sam taste test a nonalcoholic sparkling rosé, and learn all about Third Place, the nonalcoholic bar that Sam Bail is opening in New York City! Sign up for Sam's [Substack](https://substack.com/@thirdplacebarnyc?ref=mododibere.com) @thirdplacebarnyc to hear about her pop up events. You can find her on instagram [@thirdplacebarnyc](https://www.instagram.com/thirdplacebarnyc?ref=mododibere.com) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4kvF1SLfT6/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4kvF1SLfT6/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript “You go to a bar, you have a drink, and I don't want to necessarily be the person who just sits around with a seltzer. So I kind of had the idea, especially in New York City, like everything is possible, right? There's a cereal bar in Chinatown that literally only does cereal, right?There's all these Japanese-style listening bars that revolve around playing records and high-quality sound system. There's something for everyone. And so two years ago, I was wondering, why are there no non-alcoholic bars?It's not that big a jump to imagine that you have something that's kind of like a bar, it's open late, but really have sort of the bar environment without encouraging people to drink. And there wasn't anything like that at the time. So I figured, why not try and do it?Let's do it.”“Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister.Today's guest is Sam Bail, the founder of Third Place, a series of alcohol-free bar events in New York City. She aims to provide a social space that has all the vibes of a neighborhood bar for those that are sober, sober curious, or just taking a night off for drinking alcohol. Sam, welcome.Hi, hey Rose.My own goal here at Modo di Bere is to share local culture through drinks and dialect, while inspiring people to have fun and try new things. As a long time wine professional, it probably would have been simpler to market Modo di Bere as a wine project and make that my focus. But I've always insisted that I want to include all different types of drinks, not necessarily alcohol.And I love it when people come up with creative ways to make everyone feel included, especially when it comes to celebration culture. So I've been following Sam's successful series of cocktail classes and pop-up events on social media and I'm really excited about what she's doing.Yay, thanks for having me“You're welcome. Before we start the interview, I want to let you know that Modo di Bere is a listener supported program and you can sustain the work I'm doing by visiting [patreon.com/mododibere](http://patreon.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) and signing up as a patron for $5 a month to unlock bonus content. If you want to support Modo di Bere right now for free, pause the episode, find the show on Apple podcasts, scroll down and leave us five stars in a written review.It really helps more people discover the show. Sam and I will be here when you get back. So Sam, you're originally from Germany, right?YeahFrom what town?It's a really small town. It's called Ravensburg. You probably never heard of it unless you're into jigsaw puzzles, because we have one of the biggest jigsaw-on-board game manufacturers probably in the world, at least in Europe, in our town.It's like a blue corner that says Ravensburger.Oh, fun fact.Yeah, so if you ever see a jigsaw puzzle, a box, you'll now know where it's from. That's my hometown. So it's in the southwest.“It's about two hours west of Munich. It's not in Bavaria, though. It's in a different state. And yeah, it's just a small rural town, really.Do you have any local sayings that you want to share from your hometown or elsewhere in your life experience?Yeah, one of my favorites, and this is kind of drinking-related, I guess, so it sort of, you know, lines up with the podcast. It's Sechs Bier sind auch ein Schnitzel, which means six beers are a schnitzel, which basically means if you just drink enough, you don't have to eat. Oh my goodness, it's a meal.Sechs beers are a meal.I love this beer is food, beer is bread, is kind of an interesting concept throughout history. I love that.It's very German.“I have actually found that the Germans who I have met and asked about local sayings as I'm out and about, often the first saying that comes to mind is an idiom around beer. There's, I know, a nicht mein Bier.Nicht mein Bier, yeah.Yeah, so that would mean like, not my business.I'm staying out of this.Yes.But like the German version of not my cup of tea.Oh, okay, not my cup of tea. I thought of it more as like, I'm staying out of this.Oh, not like, oh, sorry. And I totally confused though what not my cup of tea means. Like, yeah, it's not none of my business.“So you could, but could you also use it for, I'm not into that.Um, no, I think, I think you're absolutely right. It's more like not my, not my, not on my problems. It's like not, not on my business.If we're looking for an English idiom for that one, we say, not my circus, not my monkeys.Not my circus, not my monkeys. I know that one. That one's actually Polish as far as I know, which is really funny.Yeah. I say that a lot. Not my circus, not my monkeys.Sam, here we are recording in the first week of February, 2024\. I feel like dry January was a busy month of events for you. Yeah.It was pretty wild. Um, I tried to limit it to just four events in dry January. I could have probably done a ton more.“But in addition to running my own events, I did two non-alcoholic cocktail classes. I did a non-alcoholic wine tasting. I did a social with non-alcoholic beer flights at Talea Brewery and Williamsburg.So along with those events, I also just did a ton of events that I attended myself. The thing I really like about the non-alcoholic industry is because it's still so small and growing. Everyone is really excited and everyone kind of knows each other.So while it's kind of work, it's also just like hanging out with your friends a lot.Speaking of hanging out with your friends, listeners who have heard my interview with Giulia Alvarez Katz will know that this is the second show that I've done around the concept of the third place. Could you tell us more about this concept and why you chose it as the name for your business?“Yeah, totally. So for me personally, bars, neighborhood bars were always a third place for me, especially when I moved to New York City. You know, you don't really have a living room or not a lot of space.So for me, my neighborhood bar back in the Lower East Side was sort of my extended living room, and it was my third place. So just to recap the idea of a third place, right, your first place usually is home, your second place is work or school, and any third place is any place outside of that where you have social connections. And for me, it was totally my neighborhood bar, and I really love going there.Any time of the day, any day of the week, I would know the shifts of the bartenders. I knew most of the regulars there. I knew a lot of the dogs that would come with the regulars too.“At some point, I was in a softball team with some of the regulars, which was pretty fun because if you get a bunch of people who drink at bars every Saturday night and then you have to play softball games Sunday morning, does not result in a particularly good softball team. We had a lot of fun. We lost every single game that season.So for me, neighborhood bars are a really important concept and a really important third place, but at the same time, for me, I realized that also encouraged me to drink a lot more than I probably should be during the week in particular. Just because that's what you do. You go to a bar, you have a drink, and I don't want to necessarily be the person who just sits around with a seltzer.So I had the idea, especially in New York City, like everything is possible, right? There's a cereal bar in Chinatown that literally only does cereal, right? There's all these Japanese-style listening bars that revolve around playing records and high-quality sound system.“There's something for everyone. And so two years ago, I was wondering, why are there no non-alcoholic bars? It's not that big a jump to imagine that you have something that's kind of like a bar, it's open late, it just doesn't have alcoholic drinks.So not like a late-night coffee shop. I think the vibe is very different for coffee shops from a bar, but really have sort of a bar environment just without alcohol, just without encouraging people to drink. And there wasn't anything like that at the time.So, you know, I figured, why not try and do it?Timing is really interesting to me too. You started in late 2022, right? So I'm just thinking about the context of the pandemic and how many people's third places were lost.And also the extra psychological impact for those of us who were in New York during early COVID. I remember first starting to walk around and just feeling this post-apocalyptic energy, particularly around seeing some of those local bars being closed. And when they were starting to come back, it was such a strange moment.“And some of them didn't come back at all. And I think people really felt the grief of losing that location.Yeah, that's a great point. I haven't even thought about it that way. But it's definitely, I think in a more broader context, I think there aren't a lot of third places in New York City anymore.And a lot of places did close down during the pandemic. That's absolutely right. I haven't even made that connection.And I think just that sense of community is really missing.Yeah.And that's kind of what I wanted to bring back with Third Place Bar.I would love for you to tell us more about what you're doing and what your plans are for the future and what it's been like for people who come to your events to continue to be included in the culture of fun.“Yeah, I have so many thoughts about this. So just for context, I initially, so initially the idea for Third Place was to really have a third place to have this permanent location, a brick and mortar bar that basically just doesn't serve alcohol, but sort of functions like a regular bar where people can come in, stop by anytime. They know the bartenders shifts, they know the regulars, stuff like that.For me personally, I don't have a background in hospitality. I've bartended, but I've never managed or owned or opened a bar. So that just seemed like a very, that seems like a pretty big challenge to move from my life working in tech to opening a bar out of nowhere.And I know some people do that. I'm not that brave or stupid, whichever way it is. And also like non-alcohol obviously is a pretty new domain.So I didn't really know anything about the beverages there. I didn't know anything about what the customers wanted. So I figured I'll start with these pop-up events to kind of get a lay of the land.“So I started doing these and it was mostly social events, either just an open bar night where I would take a coffee shop, turn it into a bar, turn on the lights a little, turn up the music a little. And then serve non-alcoholic drinks and say, do whatever you would do at a bar. Bring friends, bring a date.I had a few dates, which is very cute. Hang out or some board games, you know, bring like, hold a meeting there, whatever it is. That worked pretty well.The only problem with that is, from a financial perspective, it was hard for me to make that work.Because you were renting the coffee shop.Because I had to pay a rental fee and rental fees in New York City, even for coffee shops that are closed at night. You know, even if I'm saying, hey, do you want to make some extra money? They're still pretty steep.“So it was just hard for me to make that work and including like paying my bartender a decent rate. So I moved to more of an event-based model with tickets or ticketed events. And I've basically done everything from friend speed meets, like speed dating, but platonic, which was super fun.I did a movie in a mocktail night. I did picnics in the park. I did, what else did we do?The cocktail classes we started doing. So non-alcoholic cocktail classes, non-alcoholic wine tastings. And that seems to work really well because it basically, it's a little bit more focused and a little bit more sort of intentional about the activity and the thing that we're doing.But in the long-term, I do want to have that permanent brick and mortar location and sort of just open it up a lot more and make it a lot more accessible to people who might just not be available that particular day that the event is on, right? But, you know, have it just run it like a regular bar. So that's kind of the context for that, for like the things that we've been doing. Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) Video version by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Venice Spritz Magic ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e12-venice-spritz-magic/) [ The Subway is Her Stomping Ground ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e10-giulia-alvarez-katz-new-york/) ### El Rocío: Return to Triana URL: https://www.mododibere.com/vlog/el-rocio-return-to-triana/ Last updated: 2026-08-18T02:08:00.000Z The Triana neighborhood of Sevilla is known for its participation in El Rocío, a yearly event when pilgrims from all over Andalucía travel by foot and oxen-drawn carts to the town of Huelva to honor the Virgin of El Rocío. This footage from June 2023, shot by Rose Thomas Bannister, shows the emotional homecoming of the pilgrims to Triana. ### ▷S2E10 New York is the Place for Giulia Álvarez-Katz URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e10-giulia-alvarez-katz-new-york/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T04:50:39.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s3e3-giulia-alvarez-katz/) The gustatory glory of multicultural NYC has been food writer Giulia Álvarez-Katz's stomping ground for as long as she can remember. Rose Thomas dusts off her mixology skills with a custom Third Place cocktail in honor of Giulia's video series about the places where New Yorkers loiter, shoot the shit and congregate. RT and Giulia discuss the process, if any, of becoming a New Yorker. Giulia dishes on: Her favorite takeout. Breaking up at the bar. Experts. Accent shaming. The unofficial official cocktail of NYC. What it's like for the children of immigrants to learn the older generation's languages—or not. What drink to pair with zebra cakes from the deli. And which liquids to never, under any circumstances, transport on the subway. Follow Giulia’s writing: [https://www.giulia-ak.com/](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Watch Giulia's Third Space video series: [instagram.com/giulia\_\_ak](http://instagram.com/giulia%5F%5Fak?ref=mododibere.com) Also: [tiktok.com/@giulia\_ak](https://www.tiktok.com/@giulia%5Fak?ref=mododibere.com) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2xqMorpNkQ/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2xqMorpNkQ/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3rWu1NNZFP/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3rWu1NNZFP/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3mGwYfthlc/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3mGwYfthlc/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) *Subsequent to this interview’s publication, Giulia became a video editor and Associate producer for Modo di Bere.* ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/gak-format-original.jpg) **Auto-generated transcript**. (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript No Bev is I think an iconic New York saying like even if you're just getting like You know a zebra cake at the deli you should go get an Arizona with that as well Our Arizona is still 99 cents if they aren't that should be legal, but When Arizona's were 99 cents, it's like there's no excuse. I'm enjoying this New York deli pairing a lot actually I'm to try that It's a great pairing And this This also feels very Italian and you even made a little Italian hand when you were describing it in this uncivilized state of having wine or other drinks or food by themselves. Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local saints. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. (upbeat music) I'm super excited about today's interview and not just because I have a cocktail in my hand. Before we start the interview, I wanna remind you that this is a listener -supported show. And if you'd like to become one of those supporters, you can take a moment to visit Patreon.com/MododiBere, sign up as a patron for $5 a month and unlock bonus content. Since my guest today is a social media phenomenon, I should also mention that you can follow @MododiBere on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok, and you should. Giulia Alvarez Katz is a food writer, producer, and novelist with a degree in food science and a passion with the local culture of New York City. She recently concluded a series of 30 videos for the blog Righteous Eats on the subject of New Yorker's Third Places. Giulia, welcome. - Thank you for having me. This is terribly exciting. - What is a third place? - Third place is defined as simply as possible. It's a place that you spend your time that is neither your home nor your workspace or workplace. People operate on different definitions. A big critique I got was that third places should be free. And broadly, I agree with that. They should be. It's just we live in a country where there's not a lot of political incentive to do that. So we make do with what we have. So what I decided to cover in third places for righteous eats, as I'm sure you can guess from the eats portion of the title, is restaurants because restaurants in the third places, not always, but often. - I mean bars come to mind. - Yeah, yeah. - I mean, I think like the guy who coined the term, he had like a sort of an abridged list of like examples and what he had said was like bars, coffee shops, barber shops, parks, libraries, like that sort of place. So yeah, I kept it like pretty broad, but I had to make sure that there was some food being and maybe not just on the premises, like if there's food nearby to a third place that you can merge them together, I would do that as well. - So it's like where you work or go to school and then there's your house and then there's the place you hang out. And that's your third place. - The leisure area. - My dad likes to talk about kind of the really local boroughs, the bucket of blood, but I think that would be– - That's a great term. - Like a third place category. I think that's true, yeah. The haunt would be one as well. - Yeah, I actually love this concept so much. I dusted off my skills as a retired mixologist and invented a cocktail in honor of Giulia's series, of which I'm a big fan. So the new local drink we are enjoying together is called the third place. - Mm. - Mm. - Woo. So, it's a variation of the classic cocktail de bechu, which means jewel in French equal parts, gin, sweet remove, and green chartreuse. My version has a local gin called "Ode to Babel," which is produced by the women -owned Black Ounce Social Club, Ode to Babel. It's distilled in Green Point in Brooklyn, an Italian herbal spirit from Piedmonté called "Chentum herbists and a Corsican wine aperitif with quinine called capcorsica. It's stunningly delicious. We were talking about it, it's kind of like a chartreuse negroni, served up. Chartreuse, this liqueur made by monks and it's like not available, widely available right now, which is kind of an interesting story. They just decided not to scale up for the global market, they're just gonna keep doing their monk thing. So, which is great because it actually led me to encounter a bunch of new products. So Giulia, what is a local saying that you have to start the show? Okay, I had another one, but honestly, it's kind of lame. I want to bring up the one that I brought up before. You can do as many as you want. No, Bev is, I think, an iconic New York saying for a very specific age group. If you hear no Bev and you know what I'm saying, You know like and it's really just about like why would you eat without a beverage? And also conversely, why would you have a beverage without eating? The two go hand -in -hand there? You know, I guess that's why I'm here. This is a no Bev situation. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I refuse to know Bev So here I am with a Bev New York is all about maximizing Making things efficient efficient and fun as easily as possible. - So wait, no Bev is when you're not drinking anything? - Yeah. - So eating without drinking? - Yes. - Yeah, so what's the opposite? - No snacking. I don't remember how you were supposed to pronounce it 'cause it was an online thing for a long time. - 'Cause it's spelled. - It was spelled N -O -N -O, obviously, S -N -A -I -N -G. And then there was sometimes like stylized with like a space in between snot and INC. Sometimes with a hyphen, but you know, it's loose slang from the streets of New York City. So it's hard to really nail down a particular spelling. Describing this uncivilized state of having wine or other drinks or food by themselves. Yeah. Like even if you're just getting like, you know, a zebra cake at the deli. You should go get an Arizona with that as well. Are Arizona still 99 cents? If they aren't, that should be legal. But when Arizonas were 99 cents, it's like there's no excuse. - I'm enjoying this New York deli pairing a lot. Actually, I'm just gonna try that. - It's a great pairing. - This also feels very Italian and you even made a little Italian hand when you were describing it in looking for this drink because, you know, we were just, I was just a fan of your internet work and your writing. The only thing that I really know about your background is the flags that you have on your Instagram page. So I realized, okay, I think this is Cuban flag and it's definitely the Italian flag. So I know a little bit about your family background just from family members that you mentioned on your videos. But why do you speak Italian? It's a bit of a story and a lot of like people moving. It starts in the 60s, my grandma who is Italian, that's like the reason broadly, but she was getting up there in age for the time. She was like 30 and unmarried, which was a problem. And she just wasn't feeling for Italian boys. She goes to Spain with her girlfriends, meets my grandpa who is this like tiny, 19 year old scrappy little British kid, But he's like really swarthy because he's Jewish. And so she's like, oh, this beautiful Spaniard, he's going to like come sweep me off my feet. And my grandpa tells her a whole bunch of lies. He says, like, I'm really rich. I'm from England. Do you know anything about England? She's like, no, because I'm a country girl. And he's like, huh, it never rains there. Are you kidding? Yeah. Because she really was very– She believes him. She was so ignorant at the time. She, like, just didn't know much because she was really, like, from the from the boondocks and You know one thing led to another she got pregnant with my mom. They moved her to the United Kingdom She learned English in like ten minutes But of course because she was learning English as she was raising this child my mom learned Italian and Then my mom when she was pregnant with me read an article in like the New Yorker or something That said that bilingual children were smarter or more accomplished than regular children. And she was like, "Wow." - She wanted to do right by you. - Yeah, of course. So that's why. And I just– - So she was playing like Rosetta Stone to her belly. - Pretty much, yeah. And also just like, yeah, insisting on like the house being like, you only speak Italian in the house. She's gotten looser with it over the years, but when I was pretty young, it was like, if you spoke English in the house, it was a problem. - I mean, I'm probably glad now, but when you were a kid, was that annoying to you? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. 'Cause also because I felt like the vocabulary I had in Italian was so limited by the fact that I only spoke it with family and it got even worse when I lived in Italy 'cause there's so much, you know, there's a lot of things you would not speak about with your family, like ever. Right. So only speaking it with your family, you just never learn. Like there's so many words I didn't know, I didn't know how to, like, buy weed. I didn't know what the word for nipple was, like, and, you know, you don't think that this is going to be important information until you're stuck in a situation where you're like, well, fuck, it would have been nice if I knew and I didn't. So I found it really annoying when I was a kid and I wanted to describe something that was happening to me in a largely English -speaking world in Italian and just not having the words at all just being like I don't know what it's called a computer in Italian like I don't know what a I don't know bus is right right well aside from vocabulary though like I feel like that speaking at home thing is just I mean I can't think of a better way to game flu we get fluency yes like like just that naturalness the accent the sort of the sonic universe of it all Yeah, hearing it definitely was helpful. And then also like the fact that it wasn't just like my mom was also like my grandma and my grandpa, you know, over the years, he learned really good Italian, like enough to conduct business in the country. So like he's also for the most part using Italian, even though he's British. And like, I think it was great for fluency. Uh, and it made me feel like I was part of like this cool group because like in New York there's always like these are split in school between like the kids who speak other languages and the kids who don't honestly and this maybe is not the case literally everywhere else but like in New York if you're the kid that only speaks one language you're kind of lame. I love that actually. Like if you're the kid who's like if you speak like Spanish at home it's like okay cool like awesome if you speak like you know, French, that's like slightly more interesting, a little more like unusual. If you speak something like Swedish or like Thai, it's over. You're the coolest kid in school. Yeah. Like it was so interesting. So, you know, you get so much of it, you got to create hierarchies somehow. You speak Spanish also. Yeah, a little. I'm less proud of it because I think also I feel like in Italian, you get to practice and it's way lower stakes here. If you practice in Spanish, like in New York, you're first of all, you're most likely talking to like a Dominican or Puerto Rican, and they already talk in a way that's very difficult and fast. And like, if you're not super tight with your Spanish, it can be hard. And also there's like, you know, the no sabo kid thing. Some people are really mean about it. I don't know what that is. Oh, so if you're within like the Latin American world, there's this term called no sabo kid, which refers to like a Latin person, a Hispanic person who grew up in the US and who doesn't speak Spanish or who speaks like a shitty Spanish. And it's used not in a nice way. It's like kind of a, I wouldn't call it derogatory. That's like a little serious, but it's just get an unkind thing to say and it makes people feel insecure like myself. It's just not a very nice thing to say. Oh, you know, I agree because there's so many people who have another language or culture just one generation removed that just simply didn't have the experience that you had of speaking the other language at home, you know, maybe because their parents wanted them to assimilate or there's this huge connection that a lot of people feel a lot of grief and even shame about. And I feel so sad when people feel shame around language. That's kind of the whole point of this project, really. And I've always found it really hard to understand why people jump to, like, sort of denigrating the no -sabo kid. Because it's like, you know better than anybody what it meant not, like, maybe not now, like, in New York City, but, you know, not very long ago, if you were, like, a Hispanic person in, like, New Jersey, speaking Spanish was like a stain. And like my dad was discouraged from speaking Spanish anywhere outside the house because it was like just, you know, it didn't look, you know, it didn't sound right, didn't look right, created more problems than it solved. And that's only recently changed. So I feel like, you know, people should give a little more grace. I know. It's a bit, it's funny to just jump straight to the judgmental -ness. You know? Yeah. Okay, you're judgmental if you speak a language besides English. Okay, now we're being judgmental if you don't. I mean, come on, can't people just exist and try to learn things outside of that stressful, judgmental environment? Yeah, absolutely. So the Caribbean connection comes from your dad's side of the family. That whole side of the family is very straightforward. They're just Cuban for as far back as anybody can remember. Yeah. I did a DNA test, sorry. And turns out there's like a big population of Cubans in Cuba who are originally from the Canary Islands and I'm one of them. Didn't know that detail about Cuba. I kind of knew what the Canary Islands were, but I didn't know where the hell they were. Didn't realize they were that far south. Why does Spain have it? Have you been there? No, I really want to go now though. They have amazing wine. I've heard. I was really looking into like all the food in the Canaries and they got this whole thing of like these different kinds of like spicy fruit jams. It's like a big thing there. They sell them at all like the tourist shops. They found this weird store out of somewhere like Mallorca or somewhere that was selling just like weird Canarian imports. I just found it so interesting. I was like, what are you guys doing over there? Like, what's going on? They're so far away from like so many things. I would really like to go to the Canary Islands. It's pretty high on my list. What I really feel through your work is your love for New York City, specifically the multicultural glory that is New York. You guys can find Julia's videos on her Instagram, Julia AK, but I just wanted to talk about some of my favorite videos in the series to kind of get people excited about To understand why I asked you to come on the podcast and what is so fun about it First of all, I can totally relate to the subway as a third space. I love that you've added that There's something about it for me Even when it's hell it can be restful. - Does that make sense to you? - Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I find the subway a profoundly comforting place. I do not understand or relate when people are like, "I get so scared." Like, sure, I get why you might be scared, realistically, like I'm sure there's like, but I mean, like you measure risk every day when you get up, like it is what it is. But I've always found the subway really comforting, the noise of it, the smell of it, even when it's stanky, like the vibe, there's just like something about it. I find it very moving and very, it's very important to me. - I was really sad when they gave us Wi -Fi. - Because that liminal space situation where you had to like read a book or kind of rest or be alone with your thoughts and get transported somewhere else, then you're just kind of plugged into the same thread the whole time without that sort of break. - Yeah, I mean, I rarely look at my phone on the train other than to like play music. Like I'm very big on like, I mean, generally outside I need music in my ears 'cause otherwise it's just a little overstimulating. But on the train, it's really just like tunes and like my own thoughts, I like let my eyes cross and I just like think about something random, have a wildly vivid daydream, or I also like looking at people. I mean, like, okay, listen, when I say looking at people, I mean like staring, like we're not doing staring or not like making people aware that you're looking at them. Yeah, it's just like a glance when they're not looking, the second they look at you, you look away, like have some respect, but that's also one of my favorite things, 'cause there's so many cool people, so many great faces, great like energies and expressions and like ways of moving and sitting down like an incredible outfits. Yes, my God, the outfits. And combinations sometimes, like sometimes I'm just kind of lost in my own thoughts. And then I suddenly look around the train car and just see how everybody's bringing it in their own way. And yeah, yeah. And there can just be some like, it's random, right? I mean, you know, people are going to a certain neighborhood at a certain time for a certain reason maybe, but there's also this randomness. And as the times you just look around and it's just this glorious little slice of humanity that you just got thrown into. - And you just, and the best part is when you get to witness it as like a grouping as a unit, and then you like split it up and you're like, okay, that guy maybe like has a wife, Has a kid got divorced like you could there's so many like possibilities for the way that like any individuals life could go could have gone and if you spend even like a half second just thinking like this is a very complex fully formed person and we're just all in the two together like it's so funny but also so magical and cool I just like I can't live without it it's really like that's that's why I stick around So speaking of staring etiquette, another etiquette thing that people love to talk about on the train is what to eat on the train. And I loved how you brought food into there by demonstrating good subway eating technique. I think you ate like beef turkey or something. Yeah, it does not smell or spill. Yeah, I was thinking like, I've seen some people eat crazy stuff on the train. Oh, tell me some examples. I once saw somebody, you know how like when you go to a seafood place you can get like those plastic bags of just like a crab boil or something with like the corn the potatoes like all the seafood like he had one of those and was just like it was the summertime so we just had a tank top on he was shoving like his arm like elbow deep into this big bag of seafood and just like sort of snapping open crab claws and just kind of like suckling it off his it was bizarre it was so dramatic the messiest thing I can almost imagine eating on the train. Taking up an entire like chunk of the train just because it was like spraying sauce everywhere. He had like a splash zone. And then the corn squirting. It was just like, and you know, part of me, I remember at the time thinking I shouldn't judge him too hard. We're on the train from Coney Island, but then in retrospect, well, like why? Why should that make it okay that we were on the train from Coney Island and he's got this bag of seafood. Like, that's crazy. What's the weirdest thing you've ever eaten and or spilled on the train? Oh, or was there a moment when you were like, oh, I'm that guy. I dropped a bottle of blue Bill Berry kombucha. Oh, no. Unlike a morning rush hour. Oh, no. It I mean, it didn't explode and like hurt anybody, but there was an entire bottle of Bill Berry kombucha foaming and running along the floor. Trying to think, oh, I know exactly what it was. Eighth grade, I had just left a Starbucks with my friend on the upper West side, and we were going to head downtown to meet some boys. And we had gotten these, like, what is the biggest size at Starbucks? Is that a grande? Venti, venti. We had a venti size frappuccino one each. And we were, it was like a super crowded train, and I got jostled by some guy, always a fucking 42nd Street. And the Frappuccino, I barely sipped it because it was too cold, and I had teeth sensitivity at the time. And so I was holding on to it, waiting for it to like dilute a little bit, and then the whole thing went, like the way that it had fallen to was so comical. It went down the length of the train. - Yes, my bilberry kombucha did that too. - All the way down. - So you could just be shamed for the entire slice of the entire boggle container of humanity. - Exactly, everybody saw, and then as the train was moving and it had diluted a bit, the frappuccino was dripping, it's gross like– - Was it like a strawberry - Frappuccino or a coffee? - No, it was like a chocolate one. - Chocolate, oh. - Or like a java chip or like something like that. - Oh no, there were chunks. - Yeah, yeah, it was awful. And I, I mean, I don't think I bring drinks on the train unless it's something like really contained or like something okay, like a coffee. (gentle music) Another one of your videos that I really loved was the dim sum video. I've only had dim sum a few times and I found myself just feeling like I didn't know what was going on. So I really appreciated your video which was saying that you've eaten dim sum your entire life and you still don't know what's going on. Yeah and you said something in there like expertise is lonely because you don't have to ask questions anymore so you don't have to talk to anyone. -Damn, I forgot I wrote that. -I thought that was really deep. -Goddamn. -Yeah. -Shit, I guess it was. -Yeah, I mean, I don't know. It spoke to me. It spoke to me because, you know, I'm diving in, learning about Italian wine and trying to learn something about all the dialects and, you know, the whole world and, you know, if you're, if you feel like you need to be an expert or that you can sort of conquer a field of knowledge, I think that is lonely. Yeah, also sounds frankly to me a bit boring, like as much as I respect and really like admire people that are incredibly good at just one thing, like they know everything about just one thing. I never understood that because I'm like, how like don't you, like is there nothing else like that you want to put in your big honking brain like thing? Well, nobody knows everything about something. And if they could, then it's probably kind of a boring thing, right? That's true, yeah. I mean, I guess the things that I like are the things that, you know, are just vast. But everything's vast. Yeah. I mean, for me, when I learned something, this whole other level opens up and I'm just like, it's like a tree or a nerve system or something that just keeps splitting off and going on and on and on and you didn't even know that there was another whole level, but there's always another level. And then always different trails to choose. Oh, I also love to your, speaking of third spaces that aren't restaurants, I love to your concept of Union Square as a waiting room. That's literally how it's always felt because it's like, I think it being that much of a transit hub and such a spot where just like shit goes down. It's a really interesting place to just kind of meet up with somebody. And I always end up seeing some amazing stuff, doing amazing stuff, never because I meant to go there. Like I never sat there and was like, let me go to Union Square today. So I was like, I gotta meet up with somebody they're meeting us at Union Square. - One of the things that I liked about your series was really describing how New Yorkers do third spaces. I mean, we have our watering holes in our bars and stuff, right, for sure. But a lot of times it really is a deli where you were just standing for a little while and then the place that you can sort of fold yourself into or lean against in order to eat something out of crumpled paper. And that is like our moments of pause. And I was thinking when looking at some of your deli park combo type videos, one of my favorite sort of funny little part -time jobs I've ever done in New York was packing toys in my friend's toy warehouse storage unit in East New York. Yeah. And there was just like, I mean, this was just me, you know, coming here and belatedly discovering Dominican steam tables. But just this, the food, I mean, come on, but just also just the crowd of people would come in every day and just be like more gravy more grateful gravy and just you know just kind of stand there and we really do just kind of stand around and stuff our faces we appreciate pretty much eating so much. Something that I never did or like mentioned in any of the third places videos but that kind of felt present throughout every single one that I made was the sense that like you don't really like you're a third place, but it doesn't really choose you either. It just kind of happens. Like, it's a convergence of a lot of unrelated things that need to happen all at the same time for it to do that. But once it does it, it's doing it. And there's no going back. There's no changing the way that you relate to it, the way you engage with it. It's so much less choice involved. Or what choice there is, is like subconscious and vague and like hard to pin down like you know you go to a restaurant just because you want a given type of food or like something at a price point or whatever there's all this choice all this choosing happening you like have to make a decision I actually kind of hate deciding what I'm supposed to eat I kind of hate it it's stressful so third places I think was really nice to me because it was especially once I got other people involved in like suggesting theirs, there was this sense of like, they, like so many of the people who would tell me this was their third place were like, you know, kind of take it aback by that fact. Like once they learned what the term was, they're like, "Oh, that's what it is." And they're like, "Oh, yeah, I guess that's what it is." Do you think the third place is a place where you have a really hard time making yourself or order anything different? You always get the same thing. Yeah. I ended up just developing a much deeper relationship with a local deli. After on the very first interview of this podcast, I was interviewing my amazing British friend who works in Italian wine and also with the wine and hip hop podcast. And she was telling me about some of their pairings and mentioned the chopped cheese as a sandwich that everybody knows about, but I didn't. No one had shown it to me. And I felt like honestly that had and being kept from me. And it turns out that they have really great chopped cheese just at my deli. You know, really, it kind of changed our lives. It's kind of hard to feed my kid because they're always getting chopped cheese, you know, right after school and then not hungry for dinner. - There is, that is such a New York ritual of being a kid as you go immediately after school. There's always a deli right next to the school. They know what they're doing they know what they're doing if they're if they really know what they're doing They're doing they got curly fries And they'll let the kids just kind of dominate it for like a half hour It's never a long but like you just if you're a regular person you just need to avoid it for that half hour Yeah, you just gorge yourself on like curly fries chopped cheese bacon. I can cheese sometimes like random stuff chips Arizona's and then you're not into dinner. You're like, "God, mom, I don't want dinner. I don't want that." Why are you cooking again? It's always cooking. "Why don't we get a takeout? God, I want a Chinese food." Yeah. Oh, my God, takeout. That's so wonderful. I know. I can't live without it. I'm so bad. I can't live without it. I'm so bad. New York is the best place. What's your favorite takeout? Oh, it really depends. It really depends. There's this one place that I keep just when I can't think of anything else I always go to them it's just like sort of Korean fast food joint called garlic to the chicken they mostly do like Korean fried chicken and smother stuff but the thing that I always want from them is they got this like box it's like a bento box where you can get like a couple pits chicken and then like rice and salad and like some kimchi And that's all. And it's really nice. And it's just like a simple little, like, it's like a TV dinner or like a lunchable. It's like a grown up lunchable. And it's Korean. So it's like a double whammy. And honestly, it's wonderful when I'm when I don't want to do anything. Speaking about language in talking about local culture, including food and drink, the first thing that pops out to me is this person's a writer. I'm looking at your stuff with the connections that you bring in, but I'm also curious to ask you because I'm a writer too, and an experience that I've had learning how to make videos for social media, short, super short format, does it make you better to have to write voice overs for very short clips? Yeah. It makes me need to be very thoughtful and less indulgent. In writing, when you're just writing like pros, you can like, I mean, like, you're always going to be editing yourself down, making yourself more concise, but you can kind of let it let it rip and just like go super hard with like a flowery or like really like just luxurious detailed paragraph, but you just don't have the time and neither does anybody else in a video context. So it makes you really dilute whatever you're trying to say or not dilute condensed whatever you're trying to say. Yeah, just still. Thank you. That's good. micro in a script. Yeah. I love what you do end up including though because you, you know, you could condense everything down and as some person could decide that everything that got left in that they thought was essential was just like boring, obvious stuff. But you know, you're like throwing in some obscure novel about clouds or putting in your stonerish thoughts about whether we've robbed pigeons of their right to work. That God, that was really funny. - Yeah. - I really enjoy a lot of your food writing. In the videos, peanut soup from Senegal that was neither overbearing nor anonymous. You know, it just really made me think about the peanut in a new way. - Yeah, no, thank you so much. I, one of the big critiques actually I was getting throughout my time at Righteous Eats is like, Cut it like pair it back. You're too much of a writer. It's too literary It's like too much that Which is really funny because I feel like in every other context I'd been in besides that it was the opposite. It was like it's too casual You got to take this more seriously. You got to like, you know, this is fancy good stuff. And right just eats They were like whoa whoa Like they loved those moments, right? Where it was like something that was like very much like right early. But I like what they taught me and what I needed to learn is how to like present that without like couching it in a bunch of other stuff that like alienates a huge swath of people that I've never like to be honest made much of an effort to approach because I thought like that's that's the mess as if I'm weird. - Right, so you felt like it was kind of a, you were making insider references or something like that. Yeah, well, I don't know. I'm glad that you didn't learn it too hard because it was so clear to me that you were the writer on the team and I was here for it. I just thought those third place videos were so special and I really loved them and I liked your writing and I liked the choices that you made and they're very funny, they're very rich. You know, it's obviously like so much more to give, but you managed to include a lot. I was appreciating that editing process as I was watching them, and I just think they're fantastic. That's so nice to hear. I love the third place video series. If you happen to be listening to this episode in real time in early 2024, I am teaching a bilingual wine class in collaboration with culture without borders, language collective. On February 17th for English and Spanish learners to learn wine tasting and meet conversation partners, you can get more information about the event on my Instagram page in my bio or by sending me a message on my website, motodbari .com. My website is a great place to sign up for my newsletter so that you can hear about stuff like this. Please consider becoming a paid supporter of my work by visiting patreon .com /mododbarrett, sign up for $5 a month, unlock bonus content. There's also a couple of great ways that you can help this podcast for free, telling a friend who you think would enjoy it, sending them a link to one of your favorite episodes, and also going on to Apple podcasts, rating the podcast five stars and leaving a written review does more than you think for helping more people discover the show and I really appreciate it. Feel free to take a moment to pause the show, explore some of those options. Julia and I will be here when you get back. Now in talking about food writing, coming out of music. I just remember being the girl who set up shows, being this concert promoter at a house concert venue for a while, and I would have to write on my own copy to promote the shows because nobody ever had anything useful online, so I ended up basically writing my own album reviews for almost every band that I booked because people would just have some pictures up. And I needed to tell people this is what this music will sound like if you come to my event, I just became aware early on that it's not an easy thing to talk about what music sounds like in a way that will translate to people. And I feel the same thing with writing about wine and writing about food and other drinks. As I was learning how to taste wine, how to do that whole thing, I was like, "Oh, this is going to make me a better writer." Because to describe how something tastes and smells and makes you feel and how it feels in your mouth, like, that is not easy. Yeah. And English is, like, surprisingly not as rich as I frankly would like it to be in flavor and texture words specifically for food. Also, like, action words were really, like, we are such a rich vocabulary in other ways, but, like, there I think are very poor in it, but also like, you know, from limitation comes great creativity. So there have been ways where I've described something where I know there's a single word for an Italian, and if this was Italian, I would just use that. But in English, I got to find my way around it. And I found some really interesting creative ways to describe these things that do not have necessarily a word. Can you think of an example? I'm thinking, I'm trying to think of one right now. Um, recently, Oh, so I was trying to describe like mantecate but like inside your own mouth like when you like kind of emulsify something just by like the action of processing it within the mouth and then by like doing that you expose more flavors right and I was and if this was a talent I just would have said like it was mantecato in the mouth and like pasta that's it like I did the job but in English, I like said something like, you know, you swish it around and feel the viscosity like sort of change. And then when that happens, like the flavor also changes and affects your mouth flesh in a different way. Yeah. So you needed like 40 words. Yeah. It wanted for like a whole sort of elaborate explanation. But I also like that in food writing. I find that a lot of food writing in English tends to like sit with these like very just, I mean, I hate the word basic, but like basic words like, you know, this was insipid or this was salty. This was delicious. Like, yeah, but like, give me, give me a little judge, like you're the professional, supposedly, I mean, I think you need a writer in these spaces. Yeah. As I was reviewing some third place videos, I had seen it before, but I found myself rewatching the video about the Ukrainian cafe that used to go to with your grandfather and just crying. Okay. I mean, you let us know at the beginning of the video that he wasn't around and that you couldn't go with him. But just everything about that story was so moving. Can you tell us about the process? Yeah. So like all of my best work, it came about because I was incredibly stressed and under very high stakes. I had somebody cancel on me super last minute and it was like labor day weekend or something. And I was like, and I was like going insane, not even in the city. Like I don't know what to do. And that place, I mean, I'm not a gatekeeper by nature. If somebody asked me where you go get your Ukrainian, I would have just said that place because that's the truth. But I also It's called, I think, Ukrainian Village Restaurant, or Ukrainian East Village Restaurant. It's just on 2nd Avenue, off Astor Place. I'd been kind of like not going out of my way to go there, also because at that point I had sort of relied on guests, and no one had suggested it, so I had let it go. But then last minute, I was like, okay, fuck it, we bought, we're gonna go there. I'm craving stuffed cabbage and like, let's go. And the whole time I was there and like filming it, I was thinking like, okay, well, I'm gonna have to like talk about him, but like I wasn't sure how. I was really like not in the business of trying to be like super sappy or like exploitative. 'Cause like, you know, I've seen that and you can always kind of tell when it's they're like leading into it a bit too much and it doesn't feel sincere. And so I thought, okay, if I'm going to do this, it has to be like really sincere and it's going to be as corny as it needs to be for that to be the case. And I'm just going to do it. And if they don't like it, then they don't like it. But if they do like it, then I think the sentimentality and this was being me being very cynical, which frankly, I think I would have really appreciated. He was a fairly cynical man. And I was just like, okay, like if this goes, it goes. And it did. And when I was writing the script, that was when I had the really emotional moment, which I think as a writer makes the most sense. That was like, it was intense, like writing that script was intense. For the people who haven't seen the video, can you, can you read it a little bit for us? So in that video, I visit this restaurant that I used to go to with my late grandfather who was a Cuban drag queen who lived in the West Village in the 80s. And so he got to know a lot of these like original sort of classic New York restaurants, including like, you know, places like the diner by the courts on Center Street, like all those types of places. And this Ukrainian spot was one of my favorites, because it felt like a secret, like you had to know to go down the spooky hallway to go in there and eat. I liked that the ladies, they were never nice. Like that's a big part of it also. I liked that every single time I'd gone in there, it was some other like it was always like empty except for one other table. But the other table was always somebody interesting. And I, you know, it definitely is the third place. And I talked about coming here with Going there with him when I was a kid, and then also growing to like it for myself as I went there on my own as an adult, ordering things that he would have never ordered and trying stuff out. Sitting at tables that he would have never sat at. He would have never sat at that corner table, I'll be honest, but I'm a corner table person. The restaurant where you spent time together almost feels like another member of your family. That's the or like a setting for your family. I mean, it's not your house, but it has its own personality, especially the way you describe it. And the thing is like, I don't like that there's, at least, I don't know if this is the case in other parts of the world, but I think in the West we have such a separation between like work, house, and like other places. And it's not like just a literal separation, like we're better at building walls, walls, right? Like we're better building good doors that lock. But also like there's a kind of spiritual separation where like the home is like the private space where like private stuff happens, you have your important conversations in there and like recently there was this debate on TikTok where people were like, why would you ever have a serious conversation at a restaurant? Why wouldn't you? Oh my god, I was a bartender. I witnessed so many breakups. Exactly. And there's something about like being able to create a memory also like you know better to create a really painful memory and a Space that you are not committed to ever being in again Then creating a memory like like that in your own like bedroom. Oh, I'm here for this while you're on a lease like take Yeah, and I think restaurants are very important for that like you need another place where like Happy memories or painful memories can happen and it's like divorced from whatever else happens in your house because so much more shit happens there. You know, coming out of the pandemic, you know, a lot of people were feeling really, really lonely and had for also the additional reason that they had some of those places were lost. A lot of those places closed and didn't make it. And there's this grief when a place like that closes. Yeah. I mean, you know, the latest hot restaurant in the really difficult New York City cycle, for instance. I mean, you can be sad about it, but there's just something that grief that people feel when they share the news of a local closes. Yeah. I mean, that's also a big reason why I wanted to do the series in the first place. My approach to food and food writing has always kind of been a little more anthropological, a little more like how it's used and like how the people who go to it and work in it and like engage with it day in, day out, like what does that mean for them? But third places I think was the right vehicle for that because it was a sort of sweet, pithy way to describe this very broad, deep topic that I wanted to wrangle. But also it was a new topic for a lot of people, but an easy like way to approach these meta kind of topics when it comes to restaurants and the place that they have in a city. I can definitely relate and, you know, Motody Berry is about local drinks and local sayings and people telling me about local drinks and local sayings and that's what's being investigated and encountered. But it's really about local culture. So a big philosophical question, what does it mean to be local? Cool. So I did mention I have like so many hot takes about this as a New Yorker. I mean, I like many of my comrades as, you know, Native New Yorkers did for a very long time have like negative feelings about transplants. And I was like, you, I had all these like absurd metrics, like you're only a real New Yorker if blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like you've been here X amount of years, you've done X amount of things, you've been to XYZ however many times, like and the more granular I was getting because for every rule I would make, I would meet an exception and I would like have it thrown back in my face. Like I'd meet somebody who like, I could not like say that's not a New Yorker, clearly a New Yorker, no question about it, but like buy my own silly metric that I as apparently a genius New Yorker should like, you know, be the arbiter that, you know, just would fly in the face of that. So I realized that that wasn't working and I was probably not a smart way to go about it. And then my, that choice was really cemented when I started being the sort of public -facing person online. So many people saying like, "This is not a real New Yorker. She's or wherever the hell like I did. And you know what? It wasn't that I was insulted, which like maybe I was a little, but it really wasn't that I was insulted. I was like, okay. So clearly we're not very good at identifying. - Like who's the New Yorker? - People thought you were from Ohio. - They were saying you didn't seem New York enough. - Which is like, okay. So none of us are very good at it. - How do you say coffee? - Coffee. - Okay, all right. - Yeah, like, I mean, it all depends. I feel like the accent will like come and go on words like that. Like there have been times where I just say like dog. If you ask me to say dog, I'll just say dog. But if it's like within a sentence that ends up coming out like dog, like very intense. So honestly, I'm not from New York originally. I consider myself a New Yorker now. The non -accented example that you just tried to give sounded like a New York dog to me. Oh, there we go. I also, you know, I didn't realize I had a New York accent till I left America and suddenly strangers are coming up to me like, "Are you from New York? Like, how did you know?" And it's always the accent. But you were just telling me how things changed for you when people started to question your bona fides. How did that change things for you? It mostly just made me realize that there was no metric. There was no guaranteed way. There was no like thing that could be true about you that would unequivocally say like you are a New Yorker You aren't a New Yorker and then be on that Then that raised the question of like well, what do we even mean when we're saying this? Yeah, like I had a vague sense of what I meant, but then like plenty of people who like You couldn't question at all whether they're New Yorkers would not fulfill those like random metrics that came up with And then some people will be like, oh you have to be born and raised here. Do you know how many New Yorkers were not born here? I wasn't born here. Like they brought me here when I was an infant, like a lot of people and other people were brought here as adults or brought here. But you know what I mean? - Yeah. - I just don't think it's a good use of our time as New Yorkers, as a city population. I don't think it's a very kind use of our time because then you know what happens? Like the transplants that we have problems with, and they exist. But they're like teenagers. The more you say like, I hate you, I hate you, and you don't belong here, and you're bad, and I don't like you, stop it! Like, the more you do that, the more they're gonna behave badly. It's really teenager mentality. You gotta treat 'em like a teenager. And she's like, okay, honey, do what you need to do. You know I'm here if you need advice. And then suddenly they know how to behave. So, like, excellent parenting advice, I have to say. My view of New York is really thinking about, "Okay, you have to be here for so long." That's just the opposite of the way that I've always felt about it. I've just gone with the vision of New York as this nexus of reinvention and that anybody who wants to be a New Yorker can just show up and claim the citizenship in this type of city that's about that on day one. And that's what I did. I mean, you know, I came running here, you know, and, and, and that's what it was like for me. And it was really this place where I felt at home in a way that I had never felt at home before. And I think the way that this initially manifested in me was by hating on Boston, which I didn't realize was a thing. I just naturally came to it. I invented it. So, for myself. So, it was right after I arrived here, I went to Boston very shortly after and, you know, I'd been riding the subway for like a matter of weeks in New York City and I rode the, whatever they call the subway in Boston. And it was, people did not know how to move. They were all trying not to bump into each other. So, they all bumped into each other. And I was just like, "Hives mind, everybody goes where they're trying to go, and we just all work it out." And once you know this choreography, the second other people are not also like up to speed with the choreography, it's, it really feels like I don't, I'm not an angry person. I don't feel rage like that, but when I do, it's almost always because of people acting wrong on the train, like not moving correctly. Right. I had my things when I first moved here. I was like, "The garbage is just on the street? Where are the dumpsters? Why are they doing this? This is crazy." Or just, yeah, that fast walking thing, my sweetheart that I arrived to be here with, was walking so fast to catch the train. And I just felt like he was leaving me behind. - Yeah, my boyfriend still hasn't, my boyfriend's lived here almost 10 years now and he still doesn't get the speed thing. It's not like he's from a million, he's from Long Island. Like he should get this. Every time we're walking somewhere, he's like, "Why are you running away from me? I'm not running. This is a normal speed. I have long legs." Like, what do you want me to say? Like, I also can't walk slower. When I lived in Europe, I tried to train myself to walk at the pace of all these leisurely meandering Europeans. It was not working. I stopped paying attention. I spanned Yeah, yeah, no, it's you really have to catch a load gear. It's it's it's a conscious conscious thing You really notice how much faster you're walking than everybody else What are some of the local New York drinks that you discovered when you were out on your series that you want to tell me about so - Because I filmed a lot of the third places, like early in the day, I wasn't actually doing a lot of like drink drinking. - Oh, it doesn't have to be alcohol. - Yes, but I, you know, I never thought that you could classify New York by a given cocktail. I thought like, it's too diverse. It's too many different tastes. Like there's no way. And yet something I learned during third places, basically everywhere I went that had alcohol, had a margarita And it was good. Like it wasn't like a mid -Margarita. The thing is, every time I think about it, every mid -Margarita I've had in this city has been pretty nice. And my theory now is that the real drink of New York is a Margarita. But I did have an amazing morir soñando. Ooh, what's that? I think it's Dominican or Puerto Rican. It's one of those two. It's Orange juice like smoothied with milk sounds insane, but it's so good and it's like the name literally means like to die while dreaming like No, are you kidding? Yeah, okay. I need one of those right now. Amazing. I have had pretty good success finding it at like any of those Dominican steam table places if they got like juices, they'll have that. Those places are so great. But I've noticed a lot of Mexican places, at least now in Queens, they've started selling it themselves because they got all the stuff for it, and I think they just figured out from the local Dominicans, like, "Oh, that's the thing. Let me make that," because they got all the stuff. So Mexican places, definitely Dominican places, I think you could probably find it at a Puerto Rican place. I'd be really surprised if you didn't. Can you say the name for me? Morir soñando. Julia, we talked about your third place series, which which has now come to an end. It's been announced on the internets that you've recently completed a novel. I know you were a food journalist before collaborating with Righteous Eats. What's going on for you now? Or what are you interested in happening? What are your ideas? So I think top down the plan I think for just the rest of forever is just like put my stuff out there and in the hopes that eventually some will be like, "That's really good. I wonder what happens if we pay her." That's the hope. And listen, it hasn't not worked out for me yet. Find Julia's videos on her Instagram, Julia \_AK. Is there anything else that you want to tell us? Any deep thoughts that you want to share? Or shallow thoughts? I hope that you are treasured forever in someone's heart, including your own. Oh, I like that. That's what I have to say. Well, I have a little motto, too, that I can use to close the show. Thank you so much. Julia is really fun. Thank you for having me. Really fun talking with you. This is great. We're also going to record an interview in Italiano si chiama Modo di bere Italiano if you're speak Italian or you're trying to speak Italian You can go over to Modo di bere Italiano and listen to the interview with Julia Alvarez cats in Italian to all of our listeners Wherever you go and whatever you like to drink always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning That's So gangster. I love that. Thank you. That's wonderful. Follow Modo di Bere on YouTube, Instagram and TikTok for even more unique and encouraging drinks and language content. Music for The cast was composed by Ersilia Prosperi and performed by the band Ou. You can purchase their recordings at oumusic .bandcamp .com. Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) Video version by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) [ A Lot of Life to Live ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e11-sam-bail-third-place-bar-nyc/) [ The Rye Bread Marriage ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e9-michaele-weissman-rye-bread-marriage/) ### ▷S2E9 Michaele Weissman on the Meaning of Bread URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e9-michaele-weissman-rye-bread-marriage/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T04:52:53.000Z Born in Latvia at the dawn of World War II, Michaele's husband John grew up in a tiny village that felt lost in time. He arrived there on a harrowing journey where his mother smuggled the family across Europe on a currency of rye bread crackers and pharmaceutical Everclear. John's devotion to Latvian rye bread and poetry as recounted by Michaele is an extraordinary example of how recipes and proverbs serve as vehicles of cultural memory. *The Rye Bread Marriage* is an unvarnished relationship tale, an impressive piece of scholarship on language and foodways, and a riveting and reflective example of 20th century war literature. I hope you are moved to purchase the book after listening to this interview. I also recommend the audiobook! Here is Michaele's website: [https://michaeleweissmanwrites.com/](https://michaeleweissmanwrites.com/?ref=mododibere.com) If you are listening to this interview just as it's coming out, there is [still time to sign up](https://www.politics-prose.com/class/online-writing-workshop-help-your-memoir-move-forward-2428?ref=mododibere.com) for Michaele's memoir writing class that starts January 14 (online via DC's Politics and Prose bookstore). If you missed it, don't worry, she works regularly as a teacher and coach, and you can stay in touch with her [on instagram](https://www.instagram.com/michaeleweissman/?ref=mododibere.com). > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2NWpwVLCs1/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2NWpwVLCs1/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) Yes, this is the same rye bread that I was eating with rye grain advocate Avery Robinson in [S2E7](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e7-avery-robinson-rye-revolution/). You can buy it in select specialty groceries and also order it online in the US by visiting [https://blackroosterfood.com/](https://blackroosterfood.com/?ref=mododibere.com) **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript I find coffee just as coffee is exploding and I say, "I've been home with children and being good and blah, blah, blah for 20 years and working from home, writing from home." Yeah, and I want an adventure. Like I have a stepdaughter who'd visited 62 countries on her job. So I want an adventure like Ilza. So when this coffee thing came, It's interesting at moments in your life because I said to John People were talking to me you won't understand this until you go to one of these cup of excellence Competitions and you see how we're judging coffee and you meet the cast of characters. So I said, okay, I'm gonna do it Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. If you're a new listener, welcome. If you're already a fan of the show, you know that this is a show about local culture through drinks and dialect. Some of the folks I interview talk more about drinks, some more about language. I'm quite sure today's guest has a lot to say about both. Michaele Weissman is an author and writing teacher based in Chevy Chase, Maryland. She has published four books and hundreds of articles in August of 23, Algonquin Press published her literary memoir, The Rye Bread Marriage, in which she tells her husband's family story and explores his obsession with Latvian rye bread while pondering the nature of long -term marriage. Her previous book, God in a Cup, is widely credited with putting the specialty coffee industry on the map. She is the co -author with Deborah Prothrall stiff of deadly consequences and examination of teenage gun violence, a history of women in America which Michaele co -authored with Carol Hemowitz has sold a quarter of a million copies and is still in print four decades after publication. Michael has been married for 40 years to John Mangalis, an emeritus professor of electrical engineering, who owns Black Rooster Food, a small company that markets authentic Latvian rye bread. If you heard season two episode seven of this podcast, my interview with rye grain advocate Avery Robinson, that is the bread I was tasting during the episode and raving about. Michaele, welcome to the show. Thank you, Rose. It's a pleasure to be here. Before we dive into the interview, I want to mention that you can support Modo di Bere on Patreon and unlock exclusive bonus content. Find out more at patreon.com /mododibere. There's also another way that you can support the show for free by leaving a five star rating for Modo di Bere on Apple Podcasts and writing a review. This really helps people discover the show and I love to hear your thoughts about the podcast. Michaele, I already know we have so much to talk about from writing to Latvian poetry, to traveling, to research the history and culture of food and drinks. I have so much to ask you about the rye bread marriage, but let's start with your book that's about drinks. I love the title. Why did you call your book "God in a Cup?" - Well, I called it "God in a Cup" because I was at a coffee competition in Panama where the coffee guys and the I was extremely excited by a recently discovered coffee, Calcivar, and I literally heard one of the judges say, although I am not religious when I first tasted this coffee, I saw the face of God in a cup. And so there you have a title for a book that then everybody thinks is about religion, but what can you do about that? But that coffee, which is called Gaysha, just took the coffee world, the specialty coffee world by storm and it took a trend that was building and that people all over the world were getting excited about and it just sent it over the top. And the price of a pound of Gaysha coffee wholesale, you know, went up to 100 pounds and 200 pounds in times and it's still Kind of going strong. What's interesting about that coffee is it's not my favorite coffee And it is not the favorite coffee of a lot of coffee people because it's so tea -like and delicate That it's almost It doesn't it doesn't have quite the robustness or hint of robustness that most of us like in our coffee but But it certainly was the right coffee at the right moment. And it really, that coffee changed the world, I would say. - Tell us about traveling around and doing this kind of agricultural reporting that you did for the coffee book. - Right, as a New Yorker girl who knew nothing about whose parents grew tomatoes in the suburbs, but that was about it. Well, you know, the real story is, so when I started writing about coffee, the writing business was changing. I was a freelance journalist. I had written for all kinds of places, The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times and The Washington Post and blah, blah, blah. About how long ago was this? Okay. So this is about, I started writing about coffee in 2006\. And As I started writing about coffee, our son was off living his life. I was a free woman. And what really happened is that I had to specialize. I was encouraged to specialize because that was the nature of the business as it was changing. And so I picked food because I had been a home cook and obsessed all my life. So it was kind of a natural. And I started writing stories about food for the Washington Post, which had a new food editor and she was looking for writers. So there was a, you know, we came together there. And my best friend said, "You know, in my office," she was working at the Wall Street Journal, "people are sneaking up to the executive office to get better coffee." And I went, "Aha, like a story. So I wrote a piece called "The Upscaling of Office Coffee" and it is a cliche, but I fell down the rabbit hole because I started interviewing the young, they were then about the age that you are now. They were in their thirties and they were sort of young dudes who'd come out of the barista world and they were changing the nature of the coffee business. And also because of modern communications, you didn't have to have a big fat, juicy, rich company buying coffee. You could like take your backpack and get on an airplane and go talk to a farmer or a farmer's cooperative and buy coffee. Okay. So I land, I find coffee just as coffee is exploding. And I say, I've been home with children and being good and blah, blah, blah for 20 years and working from home, writing from home. Yeah. And I want an adventure. Like I have a stepdaughter who'd visited 62 countries on her job. So I want to adventure like Ylza. So when this coffee thing came, it's interesting at moments in your life, because I said to John, people were talking to me, you won't understand this until you go to one of these cup of excellence competitions, and you see how we're judging coffee and you meet the cast of characters. So I said, okay, I'm going to do it. And I wrote to the New York, I talked to my editor at the New York Times, she said, we're not paying you to go there. But if the story is good, we'll take it. - Yeah. - And I went, okay, all right, I'm gonna do that. And so, and so I get on a, I get on a plane, I get, you know, you get an airplane ticket. And it's, this was a really adventurous kind of travel 'cause I'm going to, you know, the high up mountains where coffee is born and is grown and where these competitions are. But it's also kind of safe for an old broad because I'm with all these young people who know the, you know, I don't have to invent this world myself, but I can participate in it. And I can have the fun of literally, you know, bouncing around in jeeps in the in the coffee highlands in Guatemala, and in Panama, with people with young guys who We'll really talk about coffee from 10 in the morning until they fall into their beds drunkenly at night. (laughing) At midnight or four in the morning. I mean, they are, it is everything to them. And I love the coffee, but it's the people that I was, I mean, it was the scene that just, that just kind of completely blew me away. And I recognized it. You know, for journalists, you have, you know, when you land in the middle of a story and you have access, this is the greatest thing in the world. And what was funny about it is that I was at the time, probably old enough to be all of their mothers. Or almost or almost. It sounds like a blast. It sounds like you all had such a blast we had a blast and it didn't matter the generational piece didn't matter because I was interested Yeah, of course and it was I mean and I was loving the adventure I'm just was loving the adventure. So I went to Latin America with them and then and then I Went to Africa because there was a there was a huge because people were in love with Ethiopian coffee And there was a big competition in Ethiopia, and I went, and that was really life changing and career changing, and, but you know, it was, I don't think I've told this story on air before, but what actually happened is the trip to Latin America had been totally fabulous. I think I made two trips to Latin America, one before Africa and one after, but that was all fabulous. I'm going to Africa and Peter Giuliano, who is now with the Specialty Coffee Association of America, and I want you to meet him because he's a brilliant, brilliant food guy. I was supposed to meet him in London and take a plane to Africa with him, and I've always been incredibly fond of him. The day I was leaving for Africa, my big chance, you know, here I am, my big literary chance, I was eating, I was anxious and I was packing and I was eating grapes off the counter and I think they weren't washed and I get on the plane to go have the big adventure of my life and I am so sick and I get on the plane and the the flight attendant looks at me I said oh my god I think I have you know dysentery she said this bathroom This is yours, you can stay here all night. They were so kind to me, but I had E. Coli. - Oh my God. - And I got it in the States. I did not get it in Africa, but I took it with me and it was so, so this great adventure of my life. Well, it was a great adventure, but it was about the hardest three weeks of my entire life. I wound up in the hospital in Rwanda. - Oh my God. - But you See, in Rwanda, they know a lot about diarrheal diseases. But by that time, by the time I got in London, they totally mistreated my illness. They said, oh, you know, it's nothing. I said, no, I'm bleeding. No, it's nothing. Well, it wasn't nothing. But they understood in Rwanda. But by the time I got to Rwanda, I had been sick with this for, I don't know, five or six days. And my gut was completely ruined. I was destroyed for months. But, you know, here I am. I'm in Africa and I have a story and I am gosh darn it, God damn it. You know, I'm going to follow that story. And I did and I got the story and I got the book. I mean, there were no second chances the publisher was waiting for a book. And there's a funny thing about this hunger for adventure because sometime later after the book came out, Peter said to me, "You know, Michael, you're famous among the coffee guys." And not just because you wrote the book. He said, "You're famous because you're the woman who went to Africa, got horribly sick, body coli, which can happen, you know, got this horrible intestinal disease and toughed it out and so you know me I never really thought of myself as toughing it out but I guess I did and so you know I'm famous in coffee land so. Oh I love this story I love this story not because you know I'm so sorry that you ended up getting sick but to hear about this, this setback and just your, your sense of just going for it and seeing something that was going to be cool. And you're like, you know what, I'm going to do this. I'm just going to get on the plane. Yeah. And you can't, you know, that's the thing in life. I mean, you get to these points and am I going to weenie? Well, there was no chance I was going to weenie out. But yeah, I was in Ethiopia in the hotel. And I'm going, Oh, this conference is nice but this isn't what I came to Africa for and I'm still sick as a dog but I hear that people are driving up into the highlands to go to the coffee to go meet coffee farmers and I said can I come with you nice I just you know I got I I got on yet another jeep that that what you realize in coffee world the roads are so bad the road but and And it, I mean, it was an amazing, and it was an amazing adventure. I gotta tell you, as a fellow foodie and fan of drinks who did not expect to become sort of an agricultural journalist. I have had some wonderful experiences with winemakers bouncing around on jeeps, on the hillsides, and those are just some of my most glorious, most adventurous fun times. I'm like, okay, now we're gonna get in the jeep and visit the vineyard. Oh gosh, I just think it's so much fun. I read and studied about these things for years and drank wine before I really got the chance to go and visit these vineyards. I just gobble up every moment of it. I want to look at every plant and see everything with my own eyes. There's just nothing like it. No, there's nothing like it. And after you've had these kind of adventures traveling for work, it's kind of hard to travel, travel. I mean, the old -fashioned way where you're going, like, from one site to another. Because when you have the privilege of, you know, people open doors and they invite you into their, this, you know, there's highly specialized worlds. And these are really gifted, passionate people. You know, you absolutely can't beat it. But I must say, in terms of the trucks, and then there is the moment, at least in, in Ethiopia, and in Panama and Guatemala, there's that there is the moment when you realize that the truck is coming down the mountain and it's trying to go by these huge craters that that are I mean these aren't potholes they're craters they look like they were left by you know stars that landed at that hundred million years ago and there's nothing to do but close your eyes you just close your eyes and go okay some people die but most don't. I guess we'll be okay. Yes. Yes. I can relate to that too. Yeah. Yeah. If the podcast listeners remember, I want to check it out. I believe it's season one, episode 12 is all about my experiences driving in Italy to visit to visit Vineyards and, you know, the amazing kind of hillside situations. It's really exciting to talk to you about God in a Cup. I have uploaded the book on Kindle and really excited to read it. Before we talk about the rye bread marriage, I just want to ask you, how did your experience of writing God in a cup and having those agricultural experiences change the way that you drink coffee? - Oh, I mean, you know. - Like what were you drinking before? - Oh, I was drinking this stuff, this local Washington stuff, which I thought was good. It's called, you know what? I want that mouth them, it's a local roasted and that's what I was drinking. And I would tell coffee guys how great it was. And they would say nothing. The way I say nothing when people tell me how great their coffee is. And, you know, it wasn't coffee that interested me. It was, I mean, it was hot water with Ritalin actually in those is, it was the people's story. - Yes. - And I don't mean this in an old -fashioned way, but the unknown -ness of the locale that I was so curious about. And also that these young guys actually thought that they were going to be able to rewrite the rules of capitalism. And they were going to be able to ensure that the coffee growers got adequate money, that it didn't all go to middlemen. Now, have they been successful at that? You guess. I mean, no. In fact, I followed up the book with a long story in Sprudge. It's a publication for coffee professionals. And of course, capitalism is a very complicated and enrooted system, and it is very hard to change it. And certainly for the buyer to You know, you really can't it's not possible to represent two interests. Hmm fully passionately at the same time So anyway, but that that that so but I so the first coffee story I did which was this office story I I am somebody told me I'll go to murky coffee and Capitol Hill and talk to Nick Cho because he's a really good coffee guy And I literally, I went there and Nick Cho made me a cappuccino with really high quality espresso. And it was like I saw God in a cup. I mean, not quite as elevated as that, but it changed me forever. Yeah. And I am, I'm still, I'm a journalist and I have a pretty good palette. I bet you my pallets probably not as good as yours. These things can be learned. These things can be learned. Well, and but I and but well, yes, they can be learned. But B, my job is to get the story. Yeah, I don't have to do what the people I write about do. I have to be able to understand what they do. I have to do it a little. But I think one And when I got the story, better than people who are crazy about coffee is that I could see the story as well. I could see the coffee and then I could see the story and that's a different thing. But I drink really, really good coffee and I insist on it and I travel. You know, we are people, John and I are people. I travel with my own little Hario, pour over. The Hario is the best because it has, the paper is fluted. So there's the flutes, there's the flutes going in one direction, but the Hario has lines around the edge that are horizontal. So you have hard, and that delays the, as when you pour over the water, it doesn't, It doesn't pour through so quickly because it's delayed in two directions. You can see how mathematical I am not but So I travel with a Harrio and I travel with my own coffee, which I must say I grind it at home I that I do but I will not drink bad coffee. I mean, I really want yeah, they really change that really change things It's really it probably changes things for me and ditto. We travel with our own rye bread Yes, I always I'm always in the suitcase and it used to be that John did it and I rolled my eyes and then the more I got into this story, the more I was like, "I don't travel without this." So let's talk about rye bread. Can you tell us about your first time trying Latvian rye sourdough bread as you related in the rye bread marriage? Okay, So I had met John when I was a 20 -year -old college student, and he was a new PhD working at MIT Lincoln Labs. And we had this summer romance, and he was very Latvian. He was born in Latvia. He was a refugee. He was foreign, foreign, foreign, foreign. And we had this– and he's very cute. He was very cute. and we had this hot summer romance and then I was 20 years old. Married, are you kidding? I'm going to New York, man. This is not marriage, it's not in my plans whatsoever. So anyway, we broke up and I went to New York and wrote a book and did all the things I wanted to do. And, you know, the way you do in New York and you know everybody, you know what's going on. You live in New York, you know what's going on. I do. Yes, so that's the, and I loved it, and then I woke up one morning around the age of 35, and I said, "Oh, I want to have a baby." I'd never really thought, anyway, so, and just then John called, and he was getting a divorce, and he had married and had two daughters, and he was still in Boston, and da -da -da -da -da -da. So the second time we dated, I'm serious 'cause the baby hunger is nipping. I mean, this is a mixed metaphor, but the baby hunger is nipping at my feet. That's not where it nips, but whatever. I mean, the minute we got back together, it was just clear to both of us that we were gonna get married. We had liked each other, there was chemistry. And I was visiting Boston shortly after He started dating the second time and he took me to his mother's house to meet his mother and to taste her bread. And we were also going, we were going later on to a dance with these Latvian people who I didn't think were very hip at the time, but John was hip. But all his friends were older, a little bit older than he and they were, they were Anyway, that's a different story. They were very folksy. It was a folksy scene. And they were very, so they definitely, they, you know, the, because of the, this is during the reign of the former Soviet Union, and they were desperate to reestablish their home country. And they were, the way some exiles are, they were more Latvian than Latvians in Latvia because Latvians in Latvia are super, are Europeans. Okay. Anyway, but that's, so I meet my mother -in -law. She's this little creature with stockings rolled at her knees, literally, and eyes that are so intelligent that, you know, I could have run out of the room screaming with fear because this lady wasn't going to miss much, but she had made the bread and she made homemade borscht with meat. So we sit down for dinner. They serve me a piece of this bread and it, she doesn't have a baker's oven. She lives in a small, subsidized apartment for old people in Newton, Massachusetts. So you can imagine the quality of the oven. Probably, if it went up to 325, it was a lot. And not so good for bread baking. Yeah. Not so good for bread baking. And it was the bread was gray instead of this beautiful black crust that we love so much or I love so much now and it was and it was made in a form because it wasn't hot enough to you know cohere as a beautiful Eastern European loaf that has the marks of the baker and anyway and I take a bite and I I'm profoundly underwhelmed and I start but I look at these two and I look at this guy and I look at his mother and I, you know, a lot was required of me at the moment and as you might have noticed that I am up to the task of talking and so I just went into a like operatic aria about how fabulous his bread was and oh my god and it went so well with the soup and it was sweet and it was sour and it reminded me of the Forest floor and mushrooms. Oh my god, but it was I was I was You're lying. I was Understand the bread and I did I more, you know, it's like you Food is a vocabulary just, you know food is a vocabulary and You have to not just open yourself to the taste of food. But if you're really going to get it, you have to understand the vocabulary in which it's spoken. And that took me many years. At this point in the show, I'd like to make a shout out to Steve Silverstein, the audio engineer who assists me on this podcast. I do my own recording and editing, but I hire Steve to remove background noise, reduce sibilance, and adjust reverb to maintain consistent sound quality when I record in new environments. Even with my experience with audio, I have a background as a singer -songwriter. When I decided to start a podcast, I had a lot to learn on the technical side. Steve's informative, patient, and encouraging consultations have taught me so much. I knew audio quality was going to be a priority for me and I feel so lucky to work with Steve. If you have a podcast or are thinking about starting one, and you're looking for some help. I hope you keep Steve Silverstein in mind. And if you're a musician or have other recording needs, he's also a wonderful recording, mixing and mastering engineer for some of my favorite artists. You can reach or recommend Steve from his Instagram, steveco .worldwide, and give him a follow to see his posts for Weird Gear Wednesdays. Again, that's on Instagram, steveco .worldwide. After the Soviet Union collapsed, John started ordering rye bread from Latvia, and this was a whole different thing. I mean, this bread is a work of art the way a baguette is. I mean, it's a magnificent thing, and it's a folk... It actually is the apotheosis of Latvian peasant culture. And there's a thousand years of love and skill in the making of it. The number one baker in Latvia, Lachi Bread, the owner of that company got his parents had been rich farmers who lost their land. The Russians seized their land and turned it into a collective farm. When they got back their farm following the collapse of the former Soviet Union, the owner of Lachi Bakery turned his family's farm into a kind of like museum, a Disney world of rye bread, where they make the bread and they had children coming to see how you make it. And newlyweds would come and make their first loaf of bread together and they had stores and restaurants and this and that. And they had a beehive oven where the bread was baked at 950 degrees. Wow. What does that taste like? What does it look like, this piece of language that is a loaf of authentic Latvian rye bread? So the loaf itself in Latvia, the loaf's John sell, first of all, the loaf on the outside is this shiny brown black. And from the same, And the brown black is caused by the same thing that caused coffee roasting. It's called the mayard Reactions that it's a browning reaction and it makes things sweeter as long as you don't burn it So so you have the the rye the mayard I'm not sure I'm pronouncing that right, but you know you got a mayard. So you're you're you're having this shiny Black brown tough crust and then you cut it you don't cut you don't slice it with a serrated knife you slice it with a big heavy chef's knife because it's so dense and then you get this beautiful chocolate brown interior and the there's no in the best rye breads there's there's no molasses there's no browning there's no false browning this browning is all in the baking and it and it's beautiful and it has lovely little, it doesn't have the big puffy holes, irregularly sized holes of a baguette. The holes are more, you know, the, as the fermentation, as it bakes and there's this popping inside. - A tighter crumb, as they say. - It's funny, you just, that's exactly it. It's a tighter crumb. And the bread itself is, So Latvian rye bread is really different. In the Baltic, rye grows better in that part of the world than they all eat rye bread. All the other rye breads are flat a bit in their taste. Most of them are fermented, so they have some sourness to a degree. Latvian rye bread, which is loved throughout Eastern Europe, is sweet and sour and it has some sugar and the sugar drives the fermentation so that it is more sour more fermented than but but it also contrasts with the what you get in the last me and Robert is first of all you get this perfect tooth some texture because I always say it fights back when you bite down into it doesn't it's not fighting back, like eating a piece of like tough meat, it's toothsome, your teeth sink into it. And so that's the first thing. And then you get this array of flavors that run, you know, sweet, sour, caraway, and the rye itself, which is a very earthy, it's a, it's a very kind of earthy flavor that's enhanced by the sweet, the sour, and the caraway, and that's all that's in it. There's no wheat whatsoever in a real loaf of Latvian rye bread. It is a magnificent accompaniment to all manner of foods, but maybe the best of all is sweet butter. - If people are now completely salivating, there's two things you can do about that. You can hear even more about this particular That that your husband John is creating with black rooster food in that episode Two season seven interview with every Robinson where I'm tasting the bread this exact bread that we're talking about and Really enjoying it and then also they if you're in the United States, they ship So you can go to black rooster food comm and just get some and and try this bread and order Michael's book, The Rye Bread Marriage, and put some sweet butter on your, on your rye bread, slice of rye bread, and, you know, in one hand and this lovely book in the other. But that's how much love and depth of knowledge goes into a loaf of real Lafayette and rye bread. And it took me, I always like to think I'm so smart, but I'm often so stupid because it took me a long time to get it. When we started going to Lafayette, I started to get it. And then once I started working on this book, it opened up. My understanding got deeper and deeper. That's where the poetry comes in. - Oh, I definitely want to talk about the poetry. One of the things I find most exciting about the book is the Latvian folk poetry, this folk song poem called the Dinah, Dinahs. I'm wondering if you could actually just read to us from that section of the book about the Dinahs. Would you mind? I want to set this up a little bit. So I have married this guy and he is Latvian and our marriage is constructed in order to allow both of us to have our different identities. But my understanding is superficial at best. And my sympathy is also superficial. And John talks about these dinas. And I, you know, I'm a writer and I think it's interesting. And I get it that the, it's always fascinating to me that even translated that the language is so elusive. But I don't really understand. And John loves these dynas. He loves them. And when he was at MIT, he actually worked on a project to get them transcribed onto digitally. And he got some money from some foundation. And he found a scholar who was interested in this. I mean, this is in his guts. And I don't, I don't really understand the bread. and I don't really understand the dinas, and I know that it's important to him and he loves to sing, but as I was working on this book, and I'm struggling to understand the bread, and I get, if I find books and articles about the dinas, and I find a few places where they're actually well, I think the translations are elusive and beautiful, it slowly opens up to me that this is the culture, that this is where these people come from and that the reason why the Latvians, no matter whether they're Lutherans or not, they're all, they have a connection to their pagan past, which is not cutesy. It's about a relationship to nature that is beautiful and deep and definitely, definitely not a cliche and that doesn't open it to me in one day. It slowly opens, but as that opens then I am able to write a book about rye bread and my husband that is equal to the subject. And that's absolutely the absolute and no one Rose has understood. I think most people read the book and they want to read the parts about the marriage and when we were having fights and all that and sort of those are great. Those are great. But yeah, but you understood this because of your being so embedded in language and poetry and stories and it's very touching to me that you're not Latvian but you have you get the universal and it's it's so it's very beautiful to me so I can read the dinas that John loved so much and quoted so often Our four line poems often sung, often referred to as folk songs that describe the life cycle of Latvian peasants. The seasons passing, young people marrying, old people dying, some dinas are hundreds of years old, some are thought to be much, much older, although scholars find it difficult to assign dates since no one automatically wrote down the lyrics until the end of the 19th century. That's when a generation of young rebels began thinking about dinas as, and this is a scholarly term, vehicles of memory, expressing their hunger for political independence, autonomy. One scholar explained the historical importance of the dinas, writing that "folklore served to create a national consciousness and pride." This sentiment helped fuel the Latvian independence movement. The hero of this movement, Christianes Barons, in the hope of instilling pride in the hearts of his countrymen, helped launch a campaign to collect, study, and eventually publish folk song lyrics. Barones appeared to women in rural areas, asking for their help in particular, because it is they who led the singing of folk songs during seasonal celebrations, and it was they who most cherished these short verses, in which so much meaning was unfolded. Some of these women told Barones that they had learned to properly read and write in order to help him compile a catalogue of the dinas. Thousands of correspondents, men as well as women, sent him over a quarter of a million of these short poems. Today there are over a million on file at the National Library in Riga. Barones believed the folk songs expressed the spiritual beliefs of the Latvian people. They are he wrote the vessels of their soul Let me go on that is beautiful. That is beautiful I would love for you to just read a couple of the dinos themselves Two folk songs describing rye cultivation and rye bread were among John's favorites The first which describes Diaz the ancient Baltic gods riding through a field of rye seems like one of the very old ones. Some experts believe that dinas are related to the Hindu dinas. The Hindu Vedas, a literary tradition that originated 8 ,000 years ago. The Diev's Dina describes in symbolic terms the time when rye, a fast replicating grass that evolved in the Middle East spread across Eastern Europe. This event occurred thousands of years before the first beta was composed. The song makes more sense when you know that rye turns a warm, earthy, gray color when it is ready to be harvested. Dieves was striding through the rye field. He was wearing a gray coat. When he reached the edge, he spread over it gray years of rye. It's so sophisticated. This poetry is so sophisticated. That's, it's, the meaning is enfolded in what isn't said as well as what is said. It's so moving to me. And then the second Rai Dainai John loved was very different from the first. This verse was homey, earnest, highly domesticated and prayerful in a way that recalls Christianity, whether it was Christian or not. Though Lutheranism has been the established religion in Latvia for 500 years, many Latvians, Christian and non, cling to pagan ideas and a mystical understanding of the natural world. And this poem is, "God grant that I should die, as did father, as did mother, father threshing in the barn, mother kneading dough for bread. >> Wow. I really think the centrality of this bread to this culture is just – I mean, you wrote a whole book about it, but there's also that poem. >> Oh, that's exactly right. And it's so touching to me. I mean, it took me so long to understand that and that I was able to convey it it to, of course, you are a particularly knowledgeable and open -hearted reader, but still, I was able to convey that. It's very meaningful. It's very meaningful to me. One thing that really struck me as I was reading your story, the book is in three parts. The first part talks a lot about the story of your marriage. The second is the stories of your husband's childhood as a Latvian war refugee and the third shares more of your rye bread research and also talks about your own family history through the lens of rye bread. Going back to the first part of the book, you do hilariously present both of you as such kind of stubborn characters. One thing that I find really touching is that you sort of kind of refuse to learn Latvian, right? And I think that it might have really helped you to maybe be more accepted by these people in the folksong group or whatever. But in the end, you actually use your gift of language to go to Latvia and learn all about the dinos. You know, so in So in the end, rather than learning the language itself, you hear the story, you find the story. And the piece that's not in the book, which is so incredibly moving to me and kind of brings things full circle, is so when I married John, a lot of the his, they're actually not his pairs, they're his friends, but they're slightly older because he was so little when he was in when they they ran away from Latvia um he was only five he was only five but um they were opposed to our marriage and they were not particularly nice to me and I am a very stubborn person and I certainly and I was 35 years old and I was a writer and I had written a book and I knew who I was and I wasn't Latvian. I was me. And John loved me as me. And I wasn't going to become anything else. And I wasn't even particularly, I was less interested than I might have. Well, I don't do well with coercion. That's really the thing. That if the door had been open and I had been allowed to tiptoe in, I might have tiptoe in a lot sooner. You wanted to be accepted on your own terms. Yeah, well, I insist upon it. I mean, in fact. And I was 35 years old. I was not a child. But the piece that's not in the book, because it's what followed the book, is that so many Latvian people, especially ones who are of every age, but particularly ones who are the age of my stepdaughters. So a little bit, you know, like in their fifties say, they are so thrilled by the book. And so many Latvian people have told me, "A, we've been seen and we're so grateful to be seen." And also that I have captured the generational story because John, the impact of having a refugee in your family, well, it has an impact on the wife who was born in America, but it has a big impact on the American -born children. And so my own, you know, my own kids, my own step -daughters said to me, you know, now I understand Haiti, and I understand because and and so there's been a coming full circle and you know my gift I mean it's it's interesting I in terms of the dinos I'm not sure I regret I mean linguistics isn't my gift but something else is this capacity to go deep and to think about something for a long time until it opens itself up. I think that's my gift and that's what I was able to do. And so that would have been better. I mean, would that have, if I'd learned Latvian, if I'd really learned Latvian, of course, it would have been better. But if I sort of learned Latvian the way I learned Hebrew from my bat mitzvah, it wouldn't have made any difference because you, you have to, you have to enter a language, yes, you know, to understand the poetry. And I think I understood it the way I understand things, which is I found the ideas that underlay it. And I thought about them a lot. And then it opened up to me. You would have learned Latvian. Well, I mean, I say that in a having in a good way. You know, though, I love what you're saying, though, even as you're saying linguistics isn't your gift. If let's say your gift is actually stories, history, getting this big picture, and the details. And psychology. Yes. So, I mean, I'm not sure you don't understand linguistics, you know? Like I think you're getting to the heart of it and you're finding these stories. And I'm loving, I loved reading your book and I loved, I'm actually listening to it on an audio book which was lovely, seeing how you work in the parts that are probably a little more similar to the coffee book where you're traveling around talking to bakers and stuff. And you and John are traveling together and you talk but having a recorder hanging off your neck, and you and he really together in your own ways, work you've done together, work you've done separately. It's, you're like folklorists. - The linguistics part, I think you're right in the sense that rather than understanding, rather than moving into syntax, it's always my way to understand the big picture. So, I understand the context, the linguistics context for that language and that culture. And that's true. That is the way my mind works. About being folklore, I mean, John and I were that funny team. I became a folklorist because using the traditional techniques of journalism that I use for the coffee book didn't work. It didn't produce the coffee book at its best, and I was sort of, that gave me 10 months or 8 months to write it, and the end is a little rushed, but the best parts of that book, you know, I really, it's the, it's narrative nonfiction. It's you put yourself in the story, and then you, and if the story is interesting and the people are interesting, you report what happens, and if you're a good reporter, you get something juicy, and especially if you have a sense - un companion.. PC, aby? Sac. (.。 Пр -. Simply whatsoever -. Credit via. ( Assembly. - We. hook The. 吗! cooked. ¿. firing. Mat. � Ethereum. ahh. 현. 2? - Ly if. If ie. ( fellows? één (? 例えば. Hay, 呢 .... 에 ear. second elt. (. sal. מ bowls. Is Mickey. OK.. cop. seven. Co. He. wrapping 5? hand. Flex. It. Fi KK. Qu ends. Two mainly. Fore. ��. しい. 합. read stra. ( Pre 220\. Mash. C 힘�. Please - – ®. Find. contracted vic. Bur. чего و. plu. B Wall persons. struck inspirational licence Labour. 220 interviews än I could I literally followed around the three people people thought, you know People in the industry thought were the most creative and wacko and interesting and I got a story But you can't do that with the history of bread. It's way too broad and way too embedded and not in the first bread products Have been now found in 30 ,000 years ago in several different archaeological digs in Europe. We're talking about the history of the entire world. You can't get that journalistically. First of all, I had to realize it wasn't writing about bread. I was writing about rye bread. Then I had to admit to myself, "I am not a baker and I'm not even interested in becoming a baker. I'm interested in, I'm always interested in meaning. So that's what I went after. And I just kept working it and working it. And then, and the dinos really were, and the dinos and the scholarship around the dinos were, they opened doors to me to go more deeply. You linked this scholarly research about the history of this culture, along with this cinematic heartbreaking story about the war refugees that I want to ask you a little bit about, but then also with this marriage story. And you put all of them in there and you wove them together, I think, very successfully. And there's just this, there's a lot of bang for the buck in here. I think it's very literary, but it's also very scholarly. But it's also very funny and very kind of intimate. Yeah, it's an amazing book. I can't wait to see what you do next. Oh, my God. Well, thank you. I, it's so touching, you know, that writers, you write to be read, and you know that everybody, when they read their book, they read their projection of your and you know that you get it in such a complex way well as maybe follow you anywhere Rose I mean yes really really really well maybe we should go on an adventure together I think I would say that this book coming out has been extremely uh rich experience for me in all all kinds of ways. And especially with how Latvian, Latvians and Latvian Americans, and they understand the different levels of the marriage. They understand the price people pay for being refugees and how that plays out in our marriage and in our family. - Tell us a little bit about that story in part two of what your husband experienced when he was five years souls. So John was born, I always say, you know, a minute before World War Two started, he was born in February, he's older than I am, and he was born in February of 1939\. And in a few months later, the Germans invaded Poland and, you know, and all bets were off. And so he, first the Russians invaded Latvia, at the very beginning of the war, and then they retreated because the Germans, who originally, they were allies, the Germans attacked, and the Russians retreated, and then the Russians came back. The Russians came back in 1944, and John's parents, the educated class, and They were newly educated in Latvia because it was a new country. The educated class, basically, they all fled because they knew that when the Russians left in 1941, they had sent 20 ,000 people to their death in Siberia and they didn't all die. And so they knew what was coming for them. So John's family, they were accompanied by, you know, hundreds, about 100 ,000 people fled. But John's family fled and they fled, and this is the first thing I knew about John when I met him when I was 20\. They fled west to Hitler's Germany, and I'm going, I mean, I was, I stood at history. I mean, I understood why they went west. But part of me, You went towards him. Who are you? And I knew that, I mean, they were never, they weren't complicit, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's like, you went West? So anyway, that sort of, and so I actually explained how that happened. And they went West to escape the Russians. And they went West as the Germans were also fleeing because they two works running away from the Russians. And they went first to the Sudetenland. But John's mother was a pharmacist. And when the war broke out, she had stockpiled medical supplies. And I always get the name of this kind of alcohol wrong. But anyway, it's basically a hundred -proof alcohol that has medicinal purposes. but if you cut it with water, 50 /50, it makes vodka. And which is more precious than gold during wartime. And so she had stockpiled all this stuff. And when they fled, they took a train to the Sudetenland. There was their first, and they took their big suitcase, with their crates, and they had all this stuff. And they basically bribed their way, were able to bribe their way across Europe. They went to the Sudetenland, and then the Sudetenland also fell to the Russians, was falling, and they had to flee again. And they made it, they took a train across Germany. They, I think, John says, I think that my mother -in -law is vodka was a big help, but they got themselves a bunch of Latvian families, Got themselves on a cattle car get this a cattle car You know that we know what these cattle cars had gone east with human cargo But so there's empty cat have cattle cars The cattle car is attached to a coal train that the Germans are moving across Germany because they don't want the allies to catch it and to get their hands on it and they go across Germany on a train as Germany is burning literally burning and but somehow they make it they may and they head Towards a southwest corner of excuse me of Germany where there's no It where there's where there's no military nothing nothing of value to bomb. It's a rural area and they are like They constants and Leo the Swiss border and the French border. And when Germany falls, it becomes the French zone. And so they spent, John's family spent five years in the French zone. So here's this little kid born in Latvia whose nanny spoke German. He already speaks Latvian and German. And then he grows up from the age of five to the age of 10 in the French zone, speaking French at school, and but living in a village, I am not exaggerating, there are 12 houses in this village, and it looks like it came right out of the Grims Ferry Tail. I have never seen a place so remote. Adjacent to that tiny village is a larger village where in fact, there were many Latvian families, but John's family is living really in the, not just in the 19th century, maybe in the 18th century. There was electricity. There's no bathrooms. There, I mean, it, it was so, um, it was so primitive. For the first 25 years of our marriage, I didn't understand that John's experience as a refugee is actually very different from the other Latvian refugees who were in the English zone or the American zone, or God forbid, if you were in the Russian zone, you know, when the war ended, they sent you back and they killed you. So, but he had a most unique childhood. And that's so my Theoretical physicist husband who is Lafayette and who loves rye bread is also partially – he is like a creature from another century. You know, I mean, and John never had a toy that they didn't build themselves. It's sort of unimaginable. And what's fascinating is how unimaginable it is to his children. And that's why my writing the book, I think for the family, it opened up. Oh, that's why he's so strange. He's not straight. I mean, he's a very devoted, loving person. But you know, he's also strange as, as are we all, but there, there are so many people with an immigration story or a refugee story who can relate to this tale with, or the descendants of someone with a story like this, with the effects on the family, with these things that are hard to understand, with these stories that take uncovering, and also I think sort of the absurdity and the close calls. It's really a riveting account in part two of the book, I really hope someone makes a movie out of it. It's a really fascinating story. And as you get into part three of the story and you start to write about your own family history with your own Jewish family eating the same rye bread, you know, your four bears in, you know, Belarus area, I started to wonder, I hope you don't mind me asking you this. Was it almost easier for you to to face John's past than to reckon with your own family history during the war? Like, perhaps researching and telling John's story was an indirect way to get you closer to this, this really heavy history that you, You know, both understood, but also you talk so much about seeming to feel kind of guilty for growing up in a privileged way. This, this sort of survivor story was researching John's war tale, kind of a way for you to, to indirectly look sideways at, at your own family story. I think that's brilliant. And, and what's so amazing is I did not notice that you write up your, you start to write a project. I had no idea. And I had been brought up. This, what this book taught me is that my parents, my, so my parents were both first generation Americans, but my father was a college educated first generation American who became a naval officer in the US Navy, which is extremely unusual for Jewish Americans. They, the Navy, the Navy. And my mother worked in a Boeing plant during the war and she had a little child who went to the Boeing nursery school. My parents were so profoundly, that war experience was their generational experience and it was so important and it confirmed their profound Americanism and that America had defeated Hitler And for my parents, in some ways, they turned their back on the fact that they had a lot of cousins who died in the Holocaust. They never dealt with that. Because everybody deals with the drama of their own that comes close to them. And for them, it was World War II and making it into the managerial class and educating daughters and making them ladies and you know okay so I really didn't get it I must say and I'm not very religious although I'm very culturally Jewish and I really didn't understand and I didn't expect to understand but one of the unusual long -term things that as I dealt with this material, I also had to deal with my own, but it wasn't intuitive. It came slowly. And my friend Sarah, who's not Jewish and who's English and who I teach with, she got it. There's a scene in the book. She got it before I got it. We're sitting in the, we both swim and we're sitting in the hot tub after swimming. And is questioning me. And I'm going, no, no, no, no, no, that's not my story. Right. So what I learned is that multiple generational, the conveyance of trauma exists on both sides of our families. I will say that I do think that many Jewish Americans have a lot of, It's interesting have a lot of, you know, there's a, there's a, you know, I hang out with these shrinks. There's a shrink term called counterphobic, which is that, and counterphobic is you look at what you're the scariest, you're most frightened, and you, and you say, I'm not scared of that. I'm going to, I'm not scared of heights. I'm going to go bungee core jumping. And you kind of leap over your fear by what you do, but you never deal with inside. And I think for my family, that was certainly true. And, and it was writing this book unveiled that to me. And I, there are other Jewish people who, you know, who had relatives who fled in the 30s. And I mean, very, very, there are very many different American Jewish stories around the Holocaust, but that was ours. And so, yes, the book, as books will, the book led me to a confrontation with John's past and with my own that I was really surprised. But I think that any writing worth doing is going to surprise the writer. That's, in fact. I really appreciated how you let that kind of hang out in the last part of the book. There's some scenes where you finally go back to where family members of yours were lost and you kind of freak out. And yeah, you know, after we've read this incredibly cinematic, tightly researched point of account. And then we go back into the voice of the first part of this book with this bracing honesty. And I was, I was really kind of moved because even in the narrative, you position it as you're behaving badly, because you kind of freak out when you're in Lithuania doing trying to do the same kind of work that you did for John and expecting it to be the same for you. But how could it be, you know, it's these stories trying to bridge through these silences that you had experienced in your own generational story. I don't know, I actually, I think I would have been on your side in this moments when you were behaving badly. You were having some emotions and I think those were good emotions. I think there's, you know, maybe there's more, maybe there's more stories there. Maybe there's more to tell. - Well, that's why I want to do another. You know, I'm not so young. You know, I want to live long enough to write the next one, which deals with this stuff more and deals with, but it also keeps moving back to food because gender was the issue of my generation and is the issue of my generation. And women are struggle to birth ourselves as full people. And what it meant to me to write in my 20s, kind of entirely by accident, my best friend and I wound up writing this, this book called The History of Women in America, which is still in print. And because Carol was working for a publisher who wanted a, literally wanted a pamphlet about women's history, because that's what it would be worth. And, you know, seven years later, Bantam published this as a, as a, as an original paperback, but learning about those brave women in the past is why I've had the life I live. I mean, I love my parents, I adored my mother, I adored my grandmother. And I learned, I mean, I learned many things from them, but I did not learn how to live as an independent person on this earth from them, I learned that from women's history. And so I want to come back and visit some of that. But I also want to visit my grandfather, my maternal grandfather, after whom I'm named, was an anarchist with a gun. But then he died a very tragic death. But it had nothing to do with anarchism, his anarchism. And he was young. And so there's also this whole, in my family, There's lots of multi -generational impact of trauma and the death of my grandfather. But so I wanna kind of cozy down with that stuff. I'm gonna start a sub -stack here by 2024\. I'm starting, as soon as I figure out what that means because I'm old, I'm doing it. I'm going to start a substack and I'm going to start writing pieces because that's writing pieces is the way you start a memoir. Well, you just sign me up for that. I'll be your, I'll be your substack reader. Yeah. I was really touched when you talk about visiting your Jewish grandmother in New York City and, you know, generally appreciating the grocery stores here. That's something that I can really relate to. There's a really sweet story at Zabars, which is a famous grocery store in New York City where you have this hilarious, really sweet story about sharing this rye bread with people coming and tasting it, that is a lovely story. But I just really encourage everybody to get this book. It's The Rye Bread Marriage Wherever You Buy Books by Michael Wiseman. Can you tell us about your website? Right. So I'm on Instagram and I'm on Facebook. And if you go on my Instagram, there's this little link tree thing. And you can hook up to all the stuff I've written. And you can also find a way to buy the book. And also, I have a website that has tons and tons and tons of material. It has all these articles I've written about food over the years. It has the saybars chapter. It does on your website. Yeah, exactly. www MichaelWeismanWrights .com. And so it's M -I -C -H -A -E -L -E -W -E -I -S -S -M -A -N -W -R -I -T -E -S .com. Michael WeismanWrights. It's really fun talking to somebody who has been doing for so long the kind of work that I've just started doing in the last in the last couple of years for for wine and just telling stories. Your book meant a lot to me and thank you so much for coming on to the show. It was a complete and utter joy Rose. I mean it's the the meaning of the nothing in life is more joyous than the meaning of the minds. You know you make you meet a new person and you listen to one another and then you find that you're really hearing one another. And it's a gift and it's a talk about adventures. It's a wonderful adventure. So thank you. To all of our listeners, thank you so much for being here. Wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Follow Motodiberi on YouTube, Instagram and TikTok for even the unique and encouraging drinks and language content. If you would love for the show to continue in growth, support Motodiberi on Patreon and unlock bonus episodes. Find out more at motodiberi .com, where you can also sign up for my newsletter. Music for the podcast was composed by Urcilia Prosperi and performed by the band Oh. You can purchase their recordings at ohumusic .bandcamp .com. (singing in foreign language) El brazo paías o que permanecen dejándose llevar Un otro se engañando se dejanse para ese mismo Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) Video version by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) [ The Subway is Her Stomping Ground ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e10-giulia-alvarez-katz-new-york/) [ Cin Cin Trento DOC ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e8-alessandra-caroni-sparkling-wine/) ### ▷S2E5 Spumante di montagna: Trento DOC con Alessandra Caroni URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s2e5-alessandra-caroni-trento-doc/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:14:33.000Z Con la sua azienda Wine Soul, Alessandra Caroni sostiene le piccole cantine come [Maso Martis](https://www.masomartis.it/?ref=mododibere.com), una azienda biologica in Trento DOC. Alessandra descrive la biodiversità, la geologia, le rocce rosse, la clima e il terreno che compongono questa regione riconosciuta per gli spumanti. Alessandra viene dall'Emilia Romagna. La sua area di studio sono le lingue straniere e non si aspettava di avere una carriera nel vino. Racconta la storia di come un tour di degustazione di vini in piccole aziende agricole in Italia le ha cambiato la vita. Visita [winesoul.it](http://winesoul.it/?ref=mododibere.com) per contattare Alessandra e conoscere meglio il suo lavoro. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/alessandra-caroni-format-original.jpg) [Ascolta in inglese / Listen in English](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-en/s2e8/alessandra-caroni-sparkling-wine-from-the-mountains) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)non ce ne sia uno da identificare ma è proprio l 'insieme il territorio quindi un po' il clima un po' la differenza di temperatura tra giorni e notte e il terreno questa roccia rossa avrai l 'opportunità di venire da noi e vedrai questi questi vigneti e sotto mentre camminiamo ci sono proprio queste rocce rosse trentine che ti danno appunto tutto quello che tu hai trovato assaggiando questa mineralità, questa freschezza, un insieme di cose, questa brezza che arriva dal lago, che si incanala nella valle, il bosco vicino, che quindi aiuta alla biodiversità perché è molto importante parlare anche di biodiversità. Benvenuti al modo di bere italiano, il podcast su bevande locali e detti locali. Sono la condutriccia Rose Thomas Bannister. Sono qui oggi con Alessandro Caroni, lei ha una passione per le piccole cantine per aiutarle a portare i loro vini su mercati internazionali. Lei è fondatrice di Wine Soul, dei anch 'i scrittrici, giurici educatrici e sommelier con ICE. Alessandro, benvenuta. Grazie Rose, grazie mille, sono contenta di averti conosciuto adesso e qua con te. Ci incontriamo per questa intervista oggi in un hotel vicino Central Park, ma io e Alexander ci siamo incontrati ieri a una degustazione dei vini di Trento Duff, un 'aria nel Nordest che produce espumanti nelle montagne delle Dolomiti. Alexander stava versando i vini del produttore biologico Maso Martis. Alessandro, Maso Maltis è un tuo cliente, ma tu sei trentina? No, io sono delle miglia romagna e adesso, come qualcuno si accorgerà da come parlo, si sente. So che si sente tra l 'A -S, la C e la Z, un modo di parlare molto particolare. Sono delle miglia romagna di Reggio Emilia, quella che è la football e quindi prosciutto crudo, parmigiano -reggiano, aceto balsamico e ho conosciuto la realtà di Masumarti, sono ormai 16 anni fa, nel 2007\. Venivita una famiglia di produttori divino? No, assolutamente no. I miei genitori facevano altro, io ho studiato lingue, una volta finita la scuola, il primo colloquio che ho fatto è stata in una cantina, Cercavano un segretario di direzione, il direttore generale non parlava le lingue, quindi aveva bisogno di un aiutante. Il colloquio è andato bene, lui mi disse allora se vuoi poi iniziare subito, io tra l 'altro volevo farla modella, i tempi quindi le mie idee erano completamente diverse. E ho detto ok, per me sei assunta e sei accetti, ti do un di l 'Ambrusco per andare a casa, tu li assaggi ogni bottiglia, scrivi su ogni bottiglia quello che pensi e quindi è iniziata così, per caso. Quale lingue hai studiato? Ho studiato inglese, tedesco come seconda e francese. È molto utile per lavorare nel mercato internazionale, no? Assolutamente, sì, sì, poi adoro le lingue, però l 'inglese è la mia preferita. Adore le lingue anche, ovviamente. Torniamo a Maso Mattis e a Trentodoc. Puoi raccontarmi un po' la storia della regione? Il Trentino è una regione splendida e secondo me per gli spumanti è molto evocata. Quando è iniziata la storia del Trentodoc o comunque degli spumanti, in Trentino è iniziata con Giulio Ferrari perché lui è stato il primo a pensare a fare spumanti metodo classico in questa regione. Una regione bellissima con una differenza di temperatura del giorno e notte elevata, con un terreno che è la roccia rossa trentina particolare e anche un 'altitudine elevata, quindi veramente un bel territorio. Sì, mi piacciono molto i vini di Masso Martis, particolarmente il rosato, mi piace che 100 % Pino nero potevo sentire molto la caratteria della uva, molto fresco al finale con aromi e supporti che esprimono davvero del Pinonero, no? Sì, bellissimo. Pinonero è un vittigno fantastico e in questa regione ha trovato una sua collocazione perfetta. I titolari dell 'azienda, Roberta, D 'Antoni, Oro, le loro figlie credono, hanno creduto in questo vittigno, per i loro spumanti, infatti, tutte le riserve hanno la maggior parte, il pinonero, e dà un 'eleganza, una finezza, un 'eleganza meravigliosa, oltre ad avere un corpo importante, però ecco, questa filosofia in tutti i vini di Maso Marti, sia la finezza e l 'eleganza. All 'alato del terreno particolare di Trent Trentodoc, capito che ci sono regole strette? Assolutamente, infatti il Trentodoc ha istituito un punto il loro, questo ente di promozione nel 2007 e mettendo delle regole, tante alcune sono sulla sostenibilità, quindi sulle pratiche e con le quali viene coltivata la vita, sostenibilità come sappiamo che è molto importante. Altre sono per esempio sugli affinamenti dei vini, quindi per esempio uno spumante riserva, può essere chiamato riserva dopo 36 mesi di affinamento, un millesimato dopo i 24 mesi. Tutte queste regole danno un 'indicazione e danno soprattutto la direzione dove andare per fare spumanti di qualità che, ovviamente, il pubblico può vedere proprio come sono stati fatti. Cosa terresti ha una persona più concentrata sulle uve italiane? Cosa dovrebbe interessarli di Trento D 'Actel, un posto con che è il metodo classico. Sì, ci sono quattro vitigni che sono possibili utilizzare nel Trento Dock, però il territorio, quello che i francesi chiamano il terroir, quindi l 'insieme del suolo, del clima, delle montagne, della brezza, dei venti, tutte queste cose insieme creano un territorio unico e secondo me molto molto evocato per gli spumanti metodo classico infatti come potuto sentire ieri solo non solo maso martis ma tutte le aziende hanno veramente ottenuto spumanti di altissima qualità sì e quanto anni hanno piantato queste uve di pieno noir charonet allora maso martis è nata nel 1990\. Quindi abbiamo ancora una parte di vigneti a pergola trentina, proprio l 'originale, mentre quelli nuovi che abbiamo piantato sono Aguyo, però manteniamo entrambi i tipi di coltivazione. Alcuni vigneti ovviamente sono stati rimpiantati, recentemente abbiamo piantato di altro menier. Adesso facciamo anche un menier in purezza e viene molto bene e quindi abbiamo diciamo che il nostro ultimo figlio nato è il menier in purezza, il messimo artist. E quindi abbiamo vigneti di diverse età da una trentina d 'anni ai tre anni di quelli appena piantati. Sono per suasa della qualità, del risultato per questi vini, per all 'evento ieri, potevo assaggiare molti buoni vini. Particularmente mi ha coppito l 'agilità e la separità, includendo con i vini che ha passato molte messe sui lieviti, è il terreno e l 'altitudine, ma sono tutti un insieme di fattori, penso che non ce ne sia uno da identificare, ma è proprio l 'insieme il territorio, quindi un po' il clima, un po' la differenza di temperatura tra giorni e notte, il terreno, questa roccia rossa avrai l 'opportunità di venire da noi e vedrai questi vigneti e sotto, mentre camminiamo, ci sono proprio queste rocce, rosse, trentine che ti danno tutto quello che tu hai trovato assaggiando questa mineralità, questa freschezza, un insieme di cose, questa brezza che arriva dal lago che si incanala nella valle, il bosco vicino che quindi aiuta la biodiversità perché è molto importante parlare anche di biodiversità con tutti questi fattori. Se ti piace il podcast di Modo di Bere italiano, spero che ti prenderai un momento per seguire Modo di Bere su Instagram, condivido di detti in dialetto che imparo da italiani e da altri del mondo, così come scene dei miei viaggi in luoghi come la Calabria, Roma, la Valtelina e il Texas. Le didascali e sono scritte in inglese italiano e spagnolo. Basta cercare moro di bere. In questo periodo periodo, riceve molti premi, questa regione è molto blasonata, si è riconosciuta, certo. Bravi, bravi. Sono stati bravi, sicuramente una regione che ci ha creduto, ci ha creduto fino in fondo e sapeva, si è resa conto di è proprio uno spumante di alta qualità e quindi ha investito, perché siamo tanti anni anche che investiamo anche sugli Stati Uniti venendo qua ogni anno a parlare, a spiegare chi siamo, dove è la nostra regione, che caratteristiche ha, parliamo con giornalisti, parliamo quindi, ha investito in quello che è il loro territorio. Mi è interessa di introdurre una cosa nuova per la gente che mai è sentito differenti posti per i bollicini, no? Eh, certo, certo, certo, no. Si parla spesso di champagne, giustamente, perché lo champagne ha 200 anni di storia, noi siamo giovannissimi. Però penso che il Trentino meriti. Veramente meriti attenzione, meriti di assaggiare una bolla Trentina. Sì, perché no. La storia del Wine Soul, la tua compagnia, e come definirebbe una piccola cantina? Le aziende in Italia sono tantissime e la maggior parte parliamo di aziende medio piccole, perché aziende piccole normalmente sono familiari, quindi conduzioni familiari hanno pochi ettari, non hanno la vasta estensione e sono i proprietari a lavorare in azienda, chi invigna, una parte in un ufficio, però si occupa un po' di tutta la figliera, normalmente raccolgono le uve manualmente e in Italia ci sono veramente tante. Ecco, ci sono poche aziende molto grandi, possiamo chiamarle industrie e tantissime una miriade di piccoli, me e di piccoli produttori, una piccola cantina direi che siamo al massimo sulle 100 mila bottiglie oppure qualcosa in più, però non più di tanto. E portano anche la storia, no? Queste famiglie? Assolutamente bellissimo, ascoltare perché hanno iniziato e la passione che hanno quello che trasmettono, infatti nello scegliere le cantine per cui il lavoro sono importantissimi i vini quindi la qualità dei vini ma ancora più importante imparato sono le persone, perché le persone che hanno creato questa azienda, quello che loro riescono a dare e tu devi lavorare con loro, quindi quando trovi persone stupende, difficilmente i vini sono diversi. Queste aziende sono fortunate per ricevere il tuo aiuto di Wine Soul. Come possono le persone contattati? Allora, possono andare sul mio sito, visitare il mio sito WineSoul .it, dopo dove c 'è anche la mia mail, quindi possono vedere alcune delle aziende per cui lavoro, ci sono alcune cantine della Toscana, molto belle, una nell 'Azio su uno suolo vulcanico, una delle Miglia Romagna, una anche l 'Isola del Giglio che è meravigliosa, ti consiglio di andare perché è un luogo splendido. Tutte biologiche, tutte lavorano in bio, dobbiamo fare attenzione a sostenibilità, questo lo sappiamo e quindi ciò dimostra anche che lavorare in biologico non vuol dire avverti problemi di produzione o neanche che debbano costare di più i vini. No, si ottiene una qualità eccellisa avendo cura del territorio in cui siamo. - Contemi, per favore, più delle altre aziende. - Delle altre aziende, certo, certo. Allora, un 'azienda bellissima per cui lavoro è tenuta a Disticciano, che è tra Firenze e Siena, quindi sulle colline toscane, un luogo splendido, incantabile, quando arrivi ti sembra di essere in paradiso lontano dal mondo, questi 25 ettari di vigneto ovviamente tutto biologico dove ci sono ben nove biotipi differenti di San Giovese, quindi che è il Principe dei Vitigni e Toscano, è veramente molto bella cantina Mena che è nell 'Azio quindi appena sotto Roma dove c 'è un suolo vulcanico E anche qua, qua sventi ettari in biologico, dove otteniamo una malvasia puntinata, per esempio, che io non conoscevo, ma che se tu l 'assaggi questo vino bianco con una bellissima mineralità, c 'è questo vulcano, si sente e E mi ricorda quasi di essere su Letna, cioè una cosa molto particolare, oppure Palazzona di Maggio, che è nell 'Emilia Romagna, quindi la prima azienda della Romagna, quindi tra Bologna e Imola, che produce San Giovese, ovviamente molto diverso dal Toscano, in diverse versioni, quindi andiamo dello spumante, metodo Martinotti, al San Giovese Giovanese, a cui al San Giovese Riserva, che anche questo è una chicca meravigliosa. Ci sono tante e tante piccole aziende in Italia, è bello dar loro valore che hanno lavorato duro per arrivare dove sono, ma ci sono di quelle che veramente stanno stando avendo un grande successo e è bellissimo, come tu mi hai spiegato che sei andata a vedere diverse aziende in Italia, hai visitato zone diverse, ecco è bellissimo, penso che sia la parte più bella del nostro lavoro, ultimamente sono andata a un un progetto nuovo e sul lago di Como vicino al lago di Como che è una zona non è vinicola cioè per eccellenza uno non sente mai parlare di questo posto però mi sono trovate in un posto meraviglioso bosco tutto terrazzato hanno ricostruito un vigneto che c 'era negli anni 70 che poi era andato perso adesso lo stanno rifacendo uscirà un vino tra due anni, quindi siamo ancora indietro, adesso ha assaggiato le prime prove di Barrick, ma queste persone, questa passione enorme per ciò che hanno creato, quello è una cosa splendida, penso impagabile, poter avere l 'opportunità di visitare i posti e di parlare con queste persone, avere questa trasmissione di emozioni da loro. È la cosa più bella, penso, del mio lavoro. Durante l 'intervista in inglese mi hai raccontato la storia dell 'un viaggio quando hai scoperto questa passione per "Azienda piccola" era una avventura, no? Assolutamente sì, io sono stata fortunata perché ho conosciuto un consulente enologo nell 'azienda dove lavoravo e ho chiesto se potevo andare con lui a imparare, perché io ho sempre lavorato fino a quel momento per industrie che lavoravano 24 /24, vedevo la parte finale del lavoro, non vedevo la vigna, non vedevo cosa c 'era prima e quindi intrapreso questo viaggio con lui dalla Sicilia al Veneto, passando dall 'Azio, da tante regioni e lui mi diceva, bene, adesso assaggiamo questo barricco oppure assaggiamo queste vasche, tu ricordati le sensazioni, ricordati quello che assaggiamo, fra due mesi torniamo e vedi come sono cambiati i vini e questa è una scuola impagabile che non da niente e nessuno e sono stata veramente, mi ritengo, fortunata, perché un commerciale normalmente non ha questa formazione. Quindi ho imparato tantissimo anche dal punto di vista produttivo, proprio qualitativo di cosa si fa in cantina ed è stato bello perché impari proprio a conoscere il lavoro delle persone in vina, in cantina, tutte le sfumature, come cambia il vino da una barric francese, un 'americana, come cambia il vino da subito dopo la vendemmia a un mese successivo. Veramente è stato bellissimo, mi ha dato tanto. Posso sentire la tua passione per queste E anche io sono scrittrice, sono musicista, ma sì, allora lavoravo in ristorante, no? E al fine non aspettavo di scoprire questo mondo enorme delle storie del sapore. Per me anche ha cambiato la mia vita, il mio lavoro e ho sentato questo desiderio di condividere queste storie. Grazie mille per parlare di queste cose. Grazie a te, grazie a te perché dalle tue parole anche ieri quando mi hai chiesto di partecipare sentivo proprio la tua passione, quello che ti piace di questo mondo e l 'essere curioso che è bellissimo perché altrimenti non si imparano. Sì perché con vino non è soltanto una cosa di emperare, no? Non è soltanto la qualità del vino sì è importante, è una cosa di studiare ma anche la storia geologica e chimica e dell 'abiramento, dell 'engua ovviamente e tutte le cose di imparare, non si ferma, no? Assolutamente, no, è bellissimo. Al fine, un giorno lungo di lavorare nel mercato internazionale, qual vino preferisci? Ah, bollicine. Bollicine, sempre. No, mi piacciono diversi vini, anche il San Giovese Toscano devo dire che ha un cuore enorme, a me piace molto. La mia nascita e la mia crescita sono le bollicine, quindi io quello lo sei impremato e è un amore che non svanirà mai, però ecco diciamo un amore per i vini fatti bene e con l 'anima, come dice Wine Soul, l 'anima, l 'anima del vino, quindi no, devo dire, sì, le bollicine però ecco, tanti, tanti, tanti vini, in Italia abbiamo veramente di tutto, quindi. Adoro questo Adoro questo nome, Gwainzel, è molto bello. Sì, devo dire che è azzeccato, perché ti dice... è vero che parla di vino, ma parla di quello che c 'è dietro, quello che è il cuore, proprio all 'essenza. Sì, parla immediatamente il senso di questa cosa. Esatto, esatto. Grazie, Mila e Alessandro, per callare con con me e sono fortunata di incontrarci. Altrettanto, altrettanto, reciproco. Sì, allora provi il vino di Masso Martiz e anche devo che dire ovunque tu vada e qualunque cosa tu beva ricorda di goderti la vita e di non smettere mai di imparare. Che bello. ¡Gracias! composta de Hercilia Prosperi periocrupo O1\. Voy a escutarle su www .oumusic .bandcap .com Llevo bajo el brazo payaso que permanece dejando se llevar por otro, se engañando se dejanse para ese mismo La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto, registrato, e montato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Steve Silverstein ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S2E8 Sparkling Wine from The Mountains: Trento DOC with Alessandra Caroni URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e8-alessandra-caroni-sparkling-wine/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T04:55:27.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s2e5-alessandra-caroni-trento-doc/) As an advocate for small growers with her company Wine Soul, Alessandra Caroni educates us about Trento DOC, a sparkling wine made in the classic method from grapes grown in the Dolomite Mountains. Maso Martis is the organic brand she represents in Trento DOC. These wines from the Northern Italian region of Trentino area fantastic value for sparkling wine fans who are shopping outside the champagne box. (For another example of champagne method wine, known as "metodo classico" in Italy, check out Season 2 Episode 6, where Susannah Gold explains this method with the example of another Italian sparkler, Franciacorta.) Alessandra didn’t come from a winemaking family, but in Italy wine is just a way of life. Alessandra originally wanted to be a model. Instead, her foreign language study helped her become an export manager for a large Lambrusco company. An adventure tasting wine from the barrel at organic wineries all over Italy caused Alessandra to become so passionate about small farms that she changed the direction of her career so she could champion families who are involved with every part of the process of making wine. Learn more about Alessandra’s company: winesoul.it > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1rHdc9O%5F93/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1rHdc9O%5F93/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) The wines that are described from the tasting are by Maso Martis: [https://www.masomartis.it/en/](https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video%5Fdescription&redir%5Ftoken=QUM4Zm9rUW9McXF2LU1WTS1Wajhud0FjNFZJVXxBR3JiS2FuRzRfbV8yc1R1MldMazJTMDVZN2V2X2NTSXhJZ3ZvVlNoVHRLLTZTLU1Jd3BxVXlzYzR5MXU2WHFYekFDRFdmNkI3azNEbW9FMTJ3RjNVcDNpOFg0VUtrTENNZzFj&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.masomartis.it%2Fen%2F&v=5nG3V-aFxiE&ref=mododibere.com)We also discuss Ferrari wines, which have nothing to do with the Ferrari car family--though they have been the official toasting wine of Formula One racing! Giulio Ferrari had a vision from the beginning of the 20th century that gradually inspired farmers to make traditional method wines in Trentino from the same grapes used to make champagne: Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, and Pinot Meunier. Learn more about Alessandra’s company: [winesoul.it](http://winesoul.it/?ref=mododibere.com) The wines that are described from the tasting are by Maso Martis: [https://www.masomartis.it/en/](https://www.masomartis.it/en/?ref=mododibere.com) Recording with Alessandra was a spontaneous opportunity and we lacked an ideal location. As a result, there is some background noise. **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript And what the difference from Trentino to for example Franciacorta or other sparkling areas? The Trentino is in the Dolomites, it's mountain, so the territory, the soil and the climate is amazing with a very big difference between night and day and with the mountain air and with the soil that is the typical Trentino red rocks. So if you had the occasion to come to Masmartis and we have just planted some new manure and you see the red rocks all over there, it's a really, really beautiful place. (upbeat music) - Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. I'm here today with Alessandra Caroni, who has a passion for small wineries and works to help them bring their wines to international markets. She founded a company called Wine Soul, and she is also a writer, a judge, an educator, and a member of ICE, the Italian Sommelier Association. Alessandra, welcome. Oh, thank you so much. Very, very happy to be here with you. We are meeting for this interview today at a hotel near Central Park, but Alessandra and I met yesterday at a tasting of the wines of Trento Doc, an area in the northeast of Italy that makes sparkling wines in the Dolomite Mountains. Alessandro was pouring the wines of the organic producer Maso Martis. Alessandro, Maso Martis is one of your clients, but are you yourself from the Trentino region? No, I am from Reggio Miglia, which is in Emilia Romagna, close to Bologna, I don't if you were being there, is about 200 kilometers from Trento. And what's happened is that our region, my place, Modena, Regimiglia, that is the food valley, so well known for basomic vignegar, Parmigiano Reggiano, and Lambrusco. So We were born with lambrusco, drinking lambrusco, and lambrusco is bubbles. So we are used to drink bubbles, and we are in love with all the bubbly wines. So when I met, I visited Muslim artists, I was in love with them, with the place, with the people, with the wines. I really loved the wines. It was 2007\. And then, so, you know, more than 15 years ago. And so I started then with them. And it's a very, very beautiful estate, but wines and people are great. Yes, I definitely agree. I really liked the wines that I tasted yesterday. So I like to start the show by asking people for a local saying. What do people sound like? If you see someone and you hear them talking and you say, "Ah, you're from Reggio Emilia." Yes, yes. When I travel through Italy and all my friends make jokes with me because they hear my accent. We have a particular way of saying the see and the Z that everybody, everybody can identify us that we are from Emilia. Can you give me an example in Italian? Oh, yeah, the pizza, the Z is very, very hard, or also the C, both in Emilia and the Romagna, all over our, our region. I don't know what kind of word I can tell because for me it's normal. That's what the other is a little bit different. What about like the hard C or the soft C? The soft one. The soft one is the C for us. And the Z are really very, very particular. everybody in Italy can recognize us. So if you are interested in using the Moto Dewberry podcast as a help to you in studying English or Italian, we also have the same interview with Alessandra in Italian. So if you go to the Moto Dewberry Italiano podcast, you can hear a little more of Alessandra's Reggio Emilia accent, and also maybe you pick up a few words of Italian along the way. So it can be kind of a fun language learning tool, I hope for people. If you're using the podcast in that way, please let me know. You can always send me an email at my website, mododberri .com, or send a DM on Instagram @mododberri. I want to hear if anyone is using the episodes back to back to study English or Italian, I hope that it's helpful to you. When I was studying Italian early on and still to this day, I like to listen to wine podcasts in Italian. It was something that had helped me. So speaking of Trento Doc, can you tell us a little bit more about the history of this region for sparkling wines? Yeah, Trentino is really amazing for sparkling wine. Trento Doc, it is a promotion institute which was born in 2007 and the DOC some years before, so 1997 I think, or and so it's young because if you think to Champagne is a history of 200 years so we are very young the train to dock is very young but the farmers who produce train to dock are really people that lives there and lives the territory it's amazing, compared to the Champagne, it's very small, we are speaking of small numbers. There are mainly three big companies, but the others are really very small producers. And which is the difference from Trentino to, for example, Franciacorta or other sparkling areas. the Trentino is in the Dolomites, it's a mountain. So the territory, the soil and the climate is amazing with a very big difference between night and day and with the mountain hair and with the soil that is the typical Trentino red rocks. So if you had the occasion to come to some as an artist and we have just planted some new many and you see the red rocks. are amazing people come to ski there from all over the world and so the territory also the vineyards go from 200 to 1000 meter altitude and so and in some areas with a very very difficult also place to pick up grapes because the territory is hard. It is an heroic viticulture, really, very beautiful. I noticed a lot of incredible acidity and also minerality in the wines. And even these wines that I tasted yesterday at the Trentedoc tasting that were aged as much as 60 months on the lease still had an incredible acidity and freshness. Does that have to do with the soil, or is it the elevation, maybe both? Both, both. The territory, both. The soil, the climate, the air, the breeze, the mountains, all together, as the French said, the terroir. That's it, all together. And yes, you're right, there is minerality, There is a freshness, both a very good body, very direct wines, fine, elegant, very, very beautiful place where sparkling can be cultivated and Trinitodoc add a really good success, big success also in Italy in these last years. It this booming really. So my understanding is that the French grapes of a long, long history in this in this particular area and also a long history of making sparkling wine, but that it was really in the the 70s or 80s that things started to begin for the Trento Doc name. Is that right? And what was what was the story there? But the first person that gives something to Trentino was Giulio Ferrari. Giulio Ferrari understood at the beginning of 19 that Trentino could be a real praise for the sparkling wine and that's the start of this story And then the farmers believe in it, and so they were clever to believe in it and to start this project. But the first person, and also there is now the wine, Giulio Ferrari, with his name that is always one of the top of our sparkling wine. I see, you see it at the auto racing, right, with the Ferrari, it's a very big celebration yeah yeah it was in Miami yeah yeah no of course not related at all to the to the car different Ferrari right yeah you know it is different the Ferrari's of my area the car is Modena so it's my area while Giulio Ferrari and and the company wine estate Ferrari's Trentino yeah yeah but a good ship now and we are happy that the Trento dock could be a witness of the car, of our motor, motor valley also we can say. I understand that there are really strict rules for the Trento dock, more so strict than champagne. Everything from vine training to the amount of time aging, can you tell us something about those requirements and what they do for the wine. Yes, also there are some rules for sustainability because it is very important. We know that also with this problem that we have in our society, sustainability is the most important thing. So there are the rules that every producer must look at um yeah look at because uh but it is also uh more easy easier in a territory like Trentino than for example in our region i think they are in the mountains so the nature is number one then we have also agent rules for a Reserva needs to be on the list for at least 36 months for a millesimato, so a vintage, at least 24\. So strict rules in order to have a very high quality product. That is the aim, and I think that the results say it is I really liked the Marsa Martis wines, I was really happy to see that it was an organic farm. I thought the Blanc de Blanc was delicious. The Dosage O Zero Reserva that I tried with the portion of the Barrel H Chardonnay was so intense and luxurious, like so much flavor, it was almost like a meal, really complex. And I think my favorite was the extra Brut Rosé. Wow, the Rosé is amazing. I love it. Really amazing because Pinot Noir, I'm in love with it and also the family of Mazumartis, Stelzer, Roberta and Antonio, now their daughters, are in love with Pinot Noir. And so in all their serve wine, the main part is Pinot Noir and with their rosé is 100 % Pinot Noir. I could really feel the expression of that grape and the character of the grape. And it just had such a fresh finish, such great aromas and flavors. I really liked that one. And you mentioned, too, the red rocks when we were trying that, that there was the influence of the minerality. The soil gives, yeah, minerality, gives the structure, gives fineness and elegance. In fact, all the wines have the same line, the same philosophy, it is the elegance. You find very, very elegant wines in all our types, and you taste it three, but then we have a pure menier, on the Passemenier, that is our last baby, we can say, and our top reserve that is Madame Artis, nine years on the list, it is amazing really. If you taste a small glass of it, you need to drink a bottle because it's very well balanced, very complex, always elegant, and I think the harmony. For people who have really enjoyed wines from the Champagne region and are interested in trying a new terroir for these wines, maybe something that I haven't tried before, I think, that the Trento Doc has been winning a lot of awards and gaining a lot of recognition for really this century or more of work on these wines. And I was so happy to get to discover a little more about those wines yesterday at the tasting. It was really a pleasure. I thank you so much because you are interested in this piece of land because I think that it is amazing. For people who want to try something else, they can find really very high quality wines there. - I think it can be really interesting to see how a grape can find new expression in a new place. I'm always interested in the innovations that people take and the things that people try, humans in the world, saying, oh, well, what would happen if this grape was planted here, if this grape was planted here, but what would you say to the people who really, I think I would include myself in this, who are just really fascinated in this moment with the Italian varieties? Why should they be interested in the French varieties being planted in Tritino? What makes them special and why should that story be interesting? Tritino It's a very different characteristic from Champagne, in a completely different territory, but the grapes found in amazing places where they can give the best of themselves. And this mountain, this breeze that comes from the Garda Lake also. And the soil, this red chalk is amazing. I think that could be something really that can have their niche because the quantity are not so small, but the quality could be really very, very, very high in comparison with champagne. It could They tell you one. Yeah. I love drinking bubbles. It's one of my favorite things. I think it's such an interesting process, an interesting story. And to hear, I can see why everybody in the world wants to try to make some bubbles, too. And to make the best bubbles that they can. And I'm excited to see consumers trying some of these regions where maybe they haven't tried bubbles from that place before. And I see I see metatoclossic wines coming from all over Italy in a sense as a new trend with all different kinds of grapes and a real interest in this high -quality process. So I think Trencha Doc is really cool because there have been all of this time and thought and farming and interest into getting this great result which I got to taste yesterday and it was so impressed. How did you get into wine Alessandro? Are you from a winemaking family? No, not at all. It was just just life. When I finished the school, I studied languages, foreign languages, and I want to be a model. And when I was 20, that's my dream. But then I don't want to leave my family, and so it doesn't work with model jobs. And so I had at that time, seven interview with the companies in the area to do when the first one was a winery. And the managing director was looking for a secretary that can speak foreign languages because he didn't speak languages. And so, okay, let's I started like that. What languages did you study? English, German and French. Wow. So, yeah, I like language, but I like English. You smile a lot. And so, after the interview, he said, "Okay, I give you this job if you accept, and please pick up 12 bottles, go home and taste And then you will you were right for every bottle. What do you think about that? So, what did you think? No, I When I was 20 I didn't drink wine perhaps the disco some room or whiskey, but not wine and So it was the the first time in this in this world and and And then I understood everything, what's happening in vinification, but after being the secretary for one and a half year, then I'd be part of the expert office, and then in two years I will be, I became an expert manager. And then For 15 years, I was the expo manager and then But I feel that I don't I do not know enough about wine So I studied at Somalia and I met a Winemaker consultant Who followed the mainly organic wine estates. I asked him to go with him to visit this wine estate and it opened me a world. So I traveled through Italy from Sicily to Veneto to all over the Italian wine estates, mainly organic wines and so I can see what was happening in the small wine estates. So the vineyard, the real quality, picking up the grapes by hand and making the wine. So the wine maker told me, "Okay, now we taste the wine in the barrels and then please remember them because in two months we go back, we come back, and you have to remember how was the wine and how it changed. It was amazing, really, a really education that helps me a lot in my job. So I decided to stop with the old expo manager job because there were very big estate, so in this industry, where Lambruzco were produced. And I decided to help small, high quality wine estate to go on the international market. It happened I'm so glad you got to have that adventure. I also have a passion for small producers from Italy and also for traveling Italy, visiting them. What for you defines a small estate? Tell us some of the specific ways in your experience that those two things were very different and made you change directions in this way. Yeah, a small one is said, normally are family owned, but it could be also a group of people, but usually they pick up grapes by hand. They are usually producing until 100 ,000 bottles, more or less this is, but also 200 ,000\. They are still very very small volume, but usually the owners take part of the life of the wine estate and working with winemakers. It is very very important to know the wine estate from how they pick up the grapes, how they make wine, what kind of wine they want to do and the best person in charge for that is the winemaker, and the analogist. And so I know that a lot of the analogists working for many wine estates, and so I know the estate from the inside. And it is helpful for understanding what is their philosophy, and what do they think about wine. When I met Mazumartis it was just fun. It was a friend of mine that was Miles Sales representative for Trentino, for Lambrusco, and he told me, "Please come, I would like to introduce you to a beautiful wine estate so you like bubbles. You can And that's, it was an exception because usually my friend andologist tell me, "Please, taste this wine or come to visit this one, taste this one." And then, okay, the wines, the quality of the wine is important, but then understood that the most important thing are the people. Yes, definitely. And I love meeting these family -owned vineyards. It's really a special experience, especially to hear about the stories about these connections with the land that go back so many years. Thank you so much for coming to speak with us about the sparkling wines from the mountains from Trento Doc. But I wonder if you can tell us more about wine WineSoul, tell us about your website, how people can find out more about the other small farmers that you work with. Oh yeah, thank you to you, Rose, because for your attention and for your love for our places. And yes, I have a website, WineSoul .it, where you can find some of my wine estates that I follow. I follow, as I told you, small wine estate, there are some from Tuscany, one from near Rome, close to our capital Rome, and one in Emilia Romagna, so where I live, and all different, so all different, and all from very, very nice people, very particular products like the one in Rome from from a volcanic area, nobody would think about it, but it's a very beautiful place. All of them are organic, working in organic, because I think, as I said before, sustainability now is the first of our aim, it must be, and it witness also that it is possible to produce organic wines, but really of high quality and yes, that's that's it or also some wines from a small island in in Tuscany, this is a little Gio. I wish you can go. I've never heard of this. Yes, amazing place. Sounds very exciting. Islands are always the most fun. So this is WineSoul .it, where people can check out their work. - Yeah, yeah, that's right, and my email, alessandra .c @winesoul .it, but you can find it on my web. - Fantastic, I'll also put that information in the notes for the episode. Thank you so much, Alessandra, for being with us today at MotoG Berry. - Thank you so much, Rose. (gentle music) \[Music\] Thank you so much for listening to the last episode of the year. 2023 has been an amazing year when I have devoted myself to sharing stories about local culture through drinks and dialect. I launched MotoG Berry on the last day of February after working on the concept for about a year in some ways longer. I took a small business class and received instruction in audio and video editing and animation. The hardest thing I had to do, which is something you can't take a class to learn how to do, is to take a leap and try something new. In this case, taking my career as a sommelier and a beverage professional in a creative educational direction. That's also the part I'm most proud of, along with not giving up when things didn't always go as planned. But it's been a fantastic year. Between the Italian and English podcast, I've recorded, edited, and released 37 episodes. I've met winemakers, olive farmers, cowboys, people on the street and asked them to share their local idioms. I documented these experiences by creating and sharing over 120 short videos about local drinks and local language on social media. And I filmed a TV show together with the filmmaker Amelia Agamir Zayi. The first episode, filmed in Jackson Heights, Queens, the most linguistically diverse location on the planet, is now up on the Bette YouTube channel with many more episodes to share with you in the new year. Learning how to learn about the wines and languages of Italy has really opened up my world to drinks and dialects from local cultures all over the world. My goal is to share the kind of educational content that I would find helpful myself. I have learned so much this year. I've made so many new friends, I've tasted so many delicious drinks, and I met so many interesting people. If you find Motodiberi educational or encouraging, I really hope you go to patreon .com /motodiberi today and sign up to be a patron of the show for $5 a month. I really hope to be able to continue to do this work and share the show with you. Those contributions are what makes that possible. And I really appreciate it. I hope that the new year brings you delicious adventures. Thank you so much for listening. Wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Follow Moro De Berry on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok for even more unique and encouraging drinks and language content. Music for the podcast was composed by Ercilia Prosperi and performed by the band O. You can purchase their recordings at oumusic .bandcamp .com. Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) Video version by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) [ The Rye Bread Marriage ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e9-michaele-weissman-rye-bread-marriage/) [ A Rye Revolution ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e7-avery-robinson-rye-revolution/) ### ▷S2E4 Lo Stivale in 20: Lombardia (con Susannah Gold) URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s2e4-lo-stivale-in-20-lombardia-susannah-gold/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:16:45.000Z Quando l'educatrice del vino Susannah Gold parla della Lombardia, racconta la storia di una regione che per qualche tempo ha chiamato casa. Dall'aperitivo al Franciacorta, dal Nebbiolo di montagna all'ammazzacaffe, la Lombardia è una festa che offre qualcosina per tutti. Susannah però non copre solo le regioni più conosciute! Anche chi conosce bene i vini del Nord Italia imparerà qualcosa di nuovo da questo episodio. Questa è la seconda puntata di una nuova sottoserie educativa, Lo Stivalo in 20\. Rose Thomas intervisterò una esperta di ciascuna delle 20 regioni vinicole italiane. Susannah Gold è autrice della sua propria podcast [Vigneto Podcast](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/vigneto-a-podcast/id1566567910?ref=mododibere.com) dove recensisce libri sul vino e parla di sostenibilità. Susannah tiene un blog meraviglioso: [Avvinare](https://avvinare.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Puoi seguire Susannah su Instagram [@vignetocomms](https://www.instagram.com/vignetocomms/?ref=mododibere.com). Susannah offre molti servizi diversi ai produttori di vino e ai consumatori attraverso il suo sito web [www.susannahgold.com](https://susannahgold.com/?ref=mododibere.com). [Ascolta in inglese / Listen in English](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-en/english/s3e6/boot-in-20/lombardia/susannah-gold) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)E' una zona bellissima, sì, Sassella, Grumello, Vangella, Maroggia, Inferno... E' come un poema, no? Sì, sì, ti ha colpito questo, capisco. Sì, no, infatti. Sì, sempre mi ha colpita come una poema, come una, come si dice in nursery rhyme, Sassella, Grumello, Vangella, Inferno e Maroggia. Sì, no, è vero. E' una zona molto, molto bella. Benvenuti al modo di bere italiano, podcast sui bevande locali e detti locali. Sono la condutriccia Rose Thomas Bannister. La puntata oggi è una della serie "L 'Ostivalo in venti", dove io intervisto un 'esperta di ciascuna delle venti regioni vinicoli d 'Italia. Parliamo di storia, vittigni, suolo, clima e tutte le piccole cose che redondo ogni miniscola aria italiana così unica. La puntata odiana parliamo di Lombardia, una Regione Venicola di tanta varietà e qualità, sono molto felice di dare il bentornato alla programma Susanna Gold. Susanna è un scrittrice, educatrice e brand ambassador con una grande passione per il vino italiano. Susanna è stata in realtà la prima ospite del programma per la serie "L 'Ostivalo Inventi". Se non hai sentito la mia intervista con Susana sulla regione Campania, te la consiglio. È la puntata 10\. Susana Gold è autrice della sua propria podcast "Vignetto" dove parla di sostenibilità e libri sul vino. Lei scrive un blog si chiama avvinare, avvinare .com. Susana, benvenuta. Grazie Rosso, sono contenta di tornare. Prima di iniziare l 'intervista vorrò chiedere ai nostri ascoltatori di scrivere una recensione su Apple Podcast e di lasciarci cinque stelle. Ci dà più visibilità in modo che le persone possono scoprire il progetto, grazie. Susana, andiamo alla mappa. Dove si trova l 'Ombaldia e Per cosa è conosciuta questa regione oltre al vino? Allora, la Lombardia è uno delle venti regioni d 'Italia ed è al nord d 'Italia nella parte in nord centrale, la Lombardia famosa per il vino ovviamente, però anche per cibo, per la moda, per la finanza. sto pensando alla città di Milano per esempio, che è il cuore della finanza italiana, dove ci sono tutte le banche, tutti gli investitori, la piazza Fari, la Borsa, allora è il capitale finanziaria. Milano è anche il capitale della moda italiana, ci sono tutti i stialisti che sono a Milano, che fanno le sfilate a Milano, Armani e molti altri, per esempio. Milano è molto conosciuta anche per l 'arte perché Leonardo da Vinci ha lasciato opere d 'arte super importanti come l 'ultima cena, il Cianacolo, che ha dentro la Chiesa Santa Maria delle Grazie, eppure anche la Pietà Rondinini, che è dentro il Castello Sforzesco. La Lombardia in generale è famosa anche per la possibilità sia di visitare piccole cittadarte, bellissime come Piacenza, Pavia, Milano, Bergamo, Brescia, che anche per i laghi, per il turismo del lago per esempio ci sono quattro laghi nel nord d 'Italia e sono tutti quattro dentro la lombardia almeno per una parte, per esempio l 'ago maggiore che è in Italia e in Svizzera, c 'è l 'ago di Como, anche lei in Italia e in Svizzera, poi c 'è l 'ago di Garda che è l 'ago più grande d 'Italia, è il secondo l 'ago più grande d 'Europa, e è il più profondo, è molto più profondo l 'ago di guarda che ha risvolti sia sui campi intorno, sui vittini intorno, che è sulla possibilità di fare molte attività sportive della vela per esempio. E poi c 'è l 'ago di zeeo che è un piccolo lago più vicino alla città di Brescia. Poi c 'è un cos 'altro, c 'è l 'ombardia. Si mangia benissimo sto pensando alla sbresolona che è la mia torta preferita di mantova per esempio la cottoletta milanese che è buonissimo lombardia è famosa per molte cose io ho avuto la fortuna di vivere a milano per dieci anni per cui è comunque una zona che conosco molto molto bene che bello parliamo della storia che è la storia del vino in Lombardia. La storia del vino in Lombardia è la storia del vino italiano in generale, cioè Lombardia è stata una terra occupato per molti anni da altri popoli, che nelle antichità sono stati i Longobardi che hanno fondato la Lombardia, Poi più recentemente c 'erano gli astriaci che erano in Lombardia. Ovviamente Lombardia all 'epoca faceva parte del Ducato di Savoia prima di quando l 'Italia è diventata un paese unito nel 1861\. Per cui tutti questi momenti storici hanno avuto il loro risvolto su il vino italiano. In Lombardia, per esempio, e inoltre Poppavese, ci sono zone e cantine che hanno più di 150 anni di storia e hanno piantato vittini che sono tortoni o che sono portati dalla Francia 1 .150 anni fa. Per cui comunque il vittino è stato importante nella Lombardia già da alcuni secoli. Quali sono alcune delle principali influenza climatiche e geologiche di questa regione? Allora, la Lombardia è una regione medio, né piccolo né grande, però ha tutte le possibile importanti tipologie di montagne e colline al fiume più grande d 'Italia, cioè il Po, il fiume e Po è il più grande fiume d 'Italia e ovviamente ha risvolti sui rivitini che crescono vicino e tutto quanto, anche per il trasporto di vino in diversi parte dell 'Italia. Poi, la Lombardia ha anche la vicinanza del meriterraneo, per esempio, si pensi sempre all 'Otrepo mi viene in mente perché sto pensando al punto di oltrepo che praticamente tocca, non praticamente, tocca l 'alliguria e ha l 'influenza a quella zona del mar meriterraneo dall 'alliguria in su, per cui c 'è tutta una parte climatico che viene da questo influenza merettimo del lago, cioè del mare, poi ci sono i laghi appunto guarda come i maggiori che anche loro hanno il loro impatto su le zone circostante, cioè fiume anche lei ha tutte le influenze ai terreni vicini e poi ci sono le montagne, ci sono gli alpi, ci sono le coline e le pri alpi che hanno un impatto imenso che sia di dare copertura dei venti freddi dalla tramontagna all 'altri che vengono giù, delle montagne per proteggere i vittigni che anche dare copertura più solleggiato in altri in altre zone. Poi Lombardia ha una pianura moltestesa, vicino al po', la pianura pedana, che è abbastanza atipico per l 'Italia, che è un paese molto montuosa. In Valtellina mi hanno colpito i fiori pronto nella primavera. Sì, la Valtellina è una parte della Lombardia, bellissima fisicamente e fa dei vini eccezionali, si parla del nebbiolo delle montagne, cioè quello è più o meno come lo chiamano il nebbiolo delle montagne per differenziarlo del nebbiolo che viene dal Piemonte e le montagne sono abbastanza alte in Valtellina, cioè fanno anche una vitticultura eroica perché hanno cultura molto difficile con linee montagne molto ripide dove fanno fatti caro a cogliere l 'uva e meraviglioso e meraviglioso se ne vino che la zona che veramente bellissimo sto pensando a 80 fame e vorrei mangiare in questo momento i pizzoccheri che la pasta la pasta di saraceno grano saraceno la valtellina, no? Buonissimo, pesante, però buonissimo. È il formaggio. È il formaggio sopra. Non abbiamo parlato del formaggio. Sì, no, anche tutti i formaggi che vengono delle montagne in Lombardia, che è molto famoso anche per il formaggio, la valtellina è super famosa per Braula, che è una specie di, non è esattamente un salame, però è un charcuterie che è veramente buono. Sì, ho passato un bel giorno in Chiavena. In Chiavena? Sì. Sì, sì, no, una zona bellissima che appunto mi stai dicendo i fiori perché comunque queste zone anche se sono della montagna dipende anche dell 'esposizione che vittini sono al sud, al nord e è possibile che sono anche molto sullegiate, per cui si vede tantissime fiori e altre cose belle. Sì, ho portato una jack grande e non avevo bisogno di questa. No, perché comunque anche queste zone a volte mi ricordo a volte in febbraio, tipo l 'ago di guarda un anno, mi ricordo che sono andata in febbraio con una mia amica Sir Mione parlando di storia, dove c 'è il villa di Cattullo, che era romano, ovviamente. Era febbraio e noi arriviamo fuori in Maniche Corte a Berè, Lugana, ovviamente, però perché eravamo a guarda. Però febbraio, Maniche Corte, cioè a New York si muore se vai fuori con Maniche Corte in febbraio. Vece lì, bellissimo. In queste zone dove ci sono questi microclime come lago di guarda fanno anche un olio d 'oliva delicato e buonissima perché l 'olivo può crescere. Valtellina è una bella regione, ma tornando alla mappa, puoi presentarci le diverse zone viticole e le loro uve e i vini. Allora, la Lombardia ha molti più vini di quanto uno possa pensare. Iniziamo. Francia Corta. Sì. Francia Franciocorta è un vino spumantizzato, buonissimo fatto nel modo metodo classico che si può anche chiamare metodo tradizionale, lo si chiama metodo tradizionale per il modo in cui è vinificato, per differenziarlo del metodo charmato e metodo martinotti come la riferimentazione in bottiglia del vino e l 'altro invece la riferimentazione a luogo nelle autoclave o nelle taniche per dire e uno il metodo classico che si vede in Franciacorta ci sono molti stile in Franciacorta di fare il vino, generalmente è lasciato sulle fece finie, per almeno 15 mesi, ma va fino anche a 60 mesi. Cioè fanno un invecchiamento molto più lungo anche di quella regione in Francia, della quale non parliamo, che non lo meniamo qua. Però il vino della Francia Corte è veramente ottimo, elegante, unico. Il suolo lì è limo, calcario, infatti è stato creato negli anni 50 -60 da Franco Ziliani e Guido Berlucchi, che erano amanti dello Champagna e sono andati in Champagna e non ho visto il suolo in Champagna e non ho pensato guarda il suolo qui dove siamo noi vicino a Brescia, ha un suolo molto simile a quello in Champagna perché noi non possiamo fare un vino spumantizzato anche qui e infatti una bottiglia del Berlucchi che mi piace tantissimo e non quella che ho in casa che è di tre litri che quando ho preso di Flamelize facendo una foto di questo quello sì sempre Berlucchi è però no la covedi qui sta parlando di Berlucchi 61 che è stato uno delle prime vendemmie loro. Buonissimo, per cui comunque Francia Corta ha una storia di longevità, di passione, di famiglie, maggiormente sono tutte famiglie e conosco tantissimi produttori molto seri, alcuni che sono già molto, a di là con il discorso di sostenibilità e ho cercato di togliere, di cambiare il loro imprint carbon footprint e tutto quanto e allora c 'è anche quello che succede in Francia Corta e ci sono questi vini sparkling che sono buonissimi. In Francia Corta come zona è vicino all 'ago di zeeo, vicino alla città di Brescia e fanno vini sparkling buonissimi che come sono in bocca. Al naso è molto fruttato, molto floriale, però anche con quei noti terziari come Brioche, la crosta di pane, e poi anche in bocca questo lunghissimo, finissimo perlage, è una persistenza molto lungo e intenso, sempre gli stessi arromi. voglio menzionare che non l 'ho fatto nella parte inglese, uno stile della Franciacorta che io adoro, che è stato il primo che è un massaggiato, che mi ricorderà del caldo al bosco, è il satenne che fanno loro, che non fa nessuno, è un stile che viene fatto solo in Franciacorta, che è un vino sempre fatto nella è un classico, però una pressione leggermente inferiore, tipo quattro, barra, no? Non sei come gli altri. Per cui buonissimo è la Satan a me ramenta sempre le... non le more, non le fragole, le... oh, Dio! Non mi viene la parola, le... non mi viene le frambuole... Frambuazzo, frutta di bosco. E' frutta di bosco, però sono raspberries, che sono buonissimi. Sì, sì, mi verrà, però comunque Satena vino, che veramente adoro. E quello è Franciacorta. Poi abbiamo la valtellina di cui avevamo parlato, con il nebbiolo che è sempre il stesso vitigno che fa Barolo Barbaresco, ma qui in valtellina viene fatto due versioni principali, la versione tradizionale classica e poi la versione leggermente con delle uve passite che si chiama "sforzato", "sforzato". e loro lo chiamano nebbiolo delle montagne e abbia parlato ieri come è diverso in nebbiolo che viene fatto in valtellina che è un nebbiolo fatto nelle langhe. Per me nebbiolo che viene della valtellina è molto molto elegante per cui lo trovo più vicino al berberesco che a un muscolare barolo e poi lo trovo molto lineare, per cui molto diritto e diretto in bocca, molto fine. Mi ricordo quando ho fatto il diploma Mary Ewing Mulligan che era il primo master of wine donna negli Stati Uniti, mi spiegava le cose nella forma della sua bocca, tipo vini che erano orizzontali, altri vini che erano E all 'epoca non capivo che cosa stavamo parlando, adesso con molti anni di esperienza il più capisco che cosa le riferiva e per me "Nebiole della Valtilena" è quello, cioè più verticale, meno orizzontale, meno questi onde di emozioni di sapori come sento a volte in parolo, però sempre finissimo, elegante, si viola, violetta, fiori, frutto, ovviamente c 'è legno, però è molto integrato, per cui è un legno usato con giudizio. E tu cosa pensi del nebbio lo che sei apparell 'estate in valtellina mi sembra? Ah, l 'adoro. Per me il copro è completamente diversa, il colore più rosado, meno granato, sì, e mi sento che posso trovare gli elbi, gli elbi dei alti, sì, dei montagna, e anche i fiori, sì, sì, viola sì, sì, sì rosa sì, ma ho scoperto diversi fiori della montagna, fiori alpini, fiori alpine. Sì, esatto, è un vino alpino che infatti ho appena scritto un pezzo su che cosa è un vino alpino, cosa senti di più, senti di più l 'acidità, la mineralità, senti più appunto quel aspetto verticale elegante, però comunque c 'è una persistenza importante anche un 'atturità finita, cioè dei sapori, cioè non è che verde come vino, non è che non è maturo, che vino non è completamente pronto, non è quello, non c 'è quell 'aspetto del radice che quando si sente, che non so, un vino che senti un po' di qualcosa di un po' verde e pensi pensino allora l 'uva non era pronta quando è stato raccolto, non è quello in Valtellina perché hanno l 'opportunità comunque esso leggiato, c 'è questo microclima per quello ci sono così tanti fiori in giro. Per me la cosa più affascinante del Valtellina è la storia geologica delle diverse sottozoni e la roca, no, della montagna. È completamente diverso terreno. È affascinante la differenza. Sì, sì, sono d 'accordo anche in muri a secco, come devono raccogliere. È una zona bellissima. Sì, sassella, grumello, vangella, ma roggia, infeama. È come un poema, no? Sì, sì, ti ha colpito questo, capisco. Sì, no, infatti. Sempre, mi ha colpita come una poema, come una, come si dice, nursery rhyme, sassella, grumello, valgella, inferno e meroccia. Sì, no, è vero, è una zona molto molto bella. Se ti piace il podcast di Modo di Bere italiano, spero che ti prenderai un momento per seguire Modo di Bere su Instagram. Condivido molti detti di alletto che imparo da italiani e da altri dal mondo, così come scene dei miei viaggi in luoghi come la Calabria, Roma, la Valtellina e il Texas. Le didascali e sono scritte in inglese italiano e espagnolo. Basta cercare moro di bere. Per cui questi sono due zone super famose che sono in Lombardia. Un 'altra zona che è molto famosa in Lombardia è oltre poppa vese e io rappresento oltre poppa vese qua sulli scosti degli Stati Uniti oltre poppa conta per 62 per cento della produzione vinicola di Lombardia per cui quasi due terzi per cui è veramente una zona importante e cosa si producia in oltre po? Prima di tutto dove oltre po? Oltre po è una zona che vicino alla città di Pavia. Adesso abbiamo parlato di Franciacorte che vicino alla città di Brescia, alla provincia di Brescia. Poi abbiamo parlato di Valtellina che vicino alla provincia di Sondrio. Adesso stiamo parlando di Otre Pò Pavesa che vicino alla provincia di Pavia. Pavia è una città bellissima con un duomo incredibile che è nella storia dei libri di standale comunque, però a parte quello. La zona vinicola di Otre Pò Pavesa, otre Pò dall 'altra parte del Po, river, fiume, e allora Otre po, dall 'altra parte del po, vicino a Pavia, è una zona che è a forma di un grappolo a duva e fa principalmente quattro vini, puntano, però fanno almeno dieci ciascun aziende allì. Prima di tutto fanno anche loro delle bollicine, fanno delle bollicine classiche in tre modi, fanno tre dio cg e usano moltissimo il vittimio di Pinot Noir. Pinot Noir ovviamente è un vittimio internazionale, non è indigino dell 'Italia, però è stato portato in oltre poco a vese nel 1850 /52, per cui comunque oltre 150 anni, cioè Pinot Noir e oltre poco. Pinot Noir in oltre oltre poi la terza zona più grande per il Pinot Noir in Europa dopo la burgogna ovviamente Champagne. Producono anche molto Riesling che è buonissimo e inoltre poi il Riesling sia Renano, quello tedesco che Italico che Renano Italico è veramente Welsh Riesling, un vittinio che molti conoscono che molto più morbido del Riesling Renano. Poi fanno un vittigno indigeno che si chiama Croatina con la quale fanno un vino che si chiama Bonarda diosi. Bonarda è un vino, non è un vittigno in Otrepo, in Lombardia. Poi usano anche molto barbera, barbera sappiamo è un vittigno che viene dal Piemonte. La cosa molto bello dell 'Otrepo e che è anche molto vicino a altri tre regioni d 'Italia, per cui Liguria, Piamonte e Miglia Romagna e ha influenza di questi altri regioni e si vede molto nei vini che fanno. Poi fanno un altro diossi che si chiama Putto Foco che è un blend di diversi vittini locali, è una chicca su tutte queste chicche che è un vittigno rosso, fanno un moscato, scusami, sangue di Giuda. Sangue di Giuda è un vino dolce rosso fatto anche lei con questi quattro vittigni importanti con croatina barbera e altri, un paio di altri vittimi. È Sangue di Giuda che è un nome un po' strano che vuol dire il sangue di Giuda ovviamente e un vino speciale molto storico che veniva servito ai preti, alle persone che venivano a trovare tutte le persone in casa, un po' come Vin Santo in Toscana per dire e questo è oltre a popa vese, fanno bulecine e anche rossi fermi, bianchi fermi, è vino dolce. - C 'è molta diversità. - Molta diversità. Tantissimi vini, molti produttori, una zona abbastanza grande per l 'ombardia. Dimmi un po' della altitudine e suolo di oltre papavese. È una cosa di diversità anche? Sì, sì, è molto variegato, perché inoltre poi sono sia le montagne e le prialpe nella parte nord e poi tocca il meriterraneo in Liguria nella parte più sud c 'è una parte che è la pienura c 'è una parte c 'è il pop per cui c 'è il fiume e i suoli sono nella zona per esempio dove fanno risling ci sono quattro vallate principalmente in oltre vada l 'est o l 'est e non i Vallata usano un vettinio differente e il suolo è differente per cui per esempio nella Vale Coppa e dove fanno Riesling, il suolo è l 'imo, il calcareo è esattamente quello dove uno vuol far crescere i Riesling che è veramente ottimo se mai riuscite a assaggiare i Riesling dell 'Otrepo vi sconvolgerete. Anche Pinogrigio, fatto in Otrepo, è diverso dal Pinogrigio, fatto Altrove, è più ampio. Poi, appunto, il suolo è un po' diverso in questi quattro vallati, questi sono le zone più importanti dell 'Otrepo, però se non passano molto tempo a parlare dell 'Otrepo, non privilegio le altre regioni, per cui parliamo anche dell 'altra mia chicca, Lugana, per la quale ho lavorato dal 2015, per cui comunque è una zona che conosco come le me tasche alla quale sono molto effezionata. Cosa è Lugana? Lugana ha una piccola regione sul sud del lago di Garda, sempre in Lombardia, è un doc interregionale, per cui è un doc sia in lombardia che nel veneto il vino viene fatto in cinque stile ma con un vittinio soltanto per cui è molto interessante vedere come un vittinio unico viene vinificato differentemente per alcuni momenti nella vita allora il vittinio qual è il vittinio si chiama turbiana turbiana è un nome di fantasia che è stato dato a Trebbiano di Lugana perché hanno dato Trebbiano di Lugana questo nome che possa sembrare strano turbiana perché all 'epoca tutti quando hanno sentito parlare di Trebbiano pensavano un vino non così elegante non speciale e per dare un po' di tono in più I vitticoltori in Lombardia hanno trovato questo vecchio nome "turbiana" che rende l 'importanza di come "trabiano", per fortuna oggi comunque. "Trabiano" è stato rivisto, ripensato, non ha la stessa fame di anni e anni fa. Poi si è scoperto che "trabiano" di Lugana, "turbiana", è lo stesso clon, è un clone, è un biotipo di verdicchio e questo fa da un 'altra certezza che comunque turbiana ha un vino importante che può invecchiare come lo stesso verdicchio, verdicchio delle Marche, turbiano qui, non qui però in Lombardia e lo fanno in cinque stile Lugana, Poi c 'è l 'ugana d 'annata, annato vuol dire la vendemia corrente, poi c 'è l 'ugana superiore, l 'ugana riserva, c 'è la vendemia tardiva, e poi c 'è anche un l 'ugana sparkling che non viene molto venduto all 'estero ancora, però buonissimo. E l 'ugana è in forte crescita perché è un vino bianco con una freschezza, una prontezza sia per l 'appetitivo che ha accompagnare tanti piatti sia internazionale che italiani che più cibi più elaborate perché Lugana anche a volte questa leggera nota di dolcezza non è dolce, è un vino secco, però ha questo residuo zuccherino che comunque aiuta a tavola, a pensare quando un piatto è molto speziato o peppato per dire. Poi Dugana è un vino longevo ed è anche un vino che ha per familiare fine che si trova in molti vini bianchi italiane, cioè con la nota un po' di mandorla, un po' amara, no? C 'è una piccola nota così quando beve un vino bianco secondo me e senti con la nota anche se lo stai facendo la cieca, lo sai che è italiana. E' una cosa preferita secondo me? Sì, perché Comunque gli italiani sono più abituati a bere e a mangiare l 'amaro che l 'americano, che non è abituato a quel sapore nello stesso modo, però ci stiamo abituando per fortuna. A parte l 'Ugana c 'è anche una zona vicino all 'ago che fa adivini eccezionali, totalmente diversi dall 'Ugana e qui stiamo parlando della Valtenesi che è molto famoso per il gropello, che è un vittigno rosato locale di guarda di questa zona. Buonissimo, unico a me avvolte la menta gamè, avvolte un frappato della Sicilia, perché è una di quelle rosse un po' scariche come colore anche fino a nuora alla fine, però a questa note di ciliegia, di freschezza, nascedità bellissima, qui nel Vartenese viene fatto nei rosati e si dice c 'è una storia che è un vittigno, un vino che si fanno in una notte come una notte d 'amore in cui comunque l 'uva viene lasciato sulle buccia per 24 ore e poi viene tolto e il vino viene fatto, per cui viene fuori questa bellissima rosato, il colore tende a essere la buccia di una cipolla. Il chiaretto, no? Si, il chiaretto. La ricetta storica, ricordo una storia di questa. La storia. Il Baltene si ancora non c 'è tantissimo qui negli Stati Uniti, ma secondo me stanno crescendo. Io faccio la mia parte, cerco di portarli qua in tutti i modi perché è un salsato strapitoso secondo me. Mi piace Groppello. Anche a me proprio tanto, tanto. Anche un po' Groppello, anche Groppello fermo, perché fanno anche un Groppello fermo in questa zona nella guarda dock, ovviamente. Un Groppello fermo, anche lasciato un attimo un po' più freddo, benissimo, cioè va benissimo per l 'estate, gropello, sai questo moro di, che adesso non moro di bere, però neanche moro di dire, però un moro di bere il vino adesso che è un rosso un po' freddo, no? Cioè che si lascia un po' raffreddare un attimo un rosso non, buonissimo, gropello per me è eccezionale. Sì, ha un corpo leggero, ma per me anche trovo una nota di Erbe di Majorana e ha una struttura in un senso, in un altro senso, è una cosa elegante e divertente, ma anche seria. No, è anche il groppello è invecchiato, è un vino serio, cioè non è, perché lo dico, puoi mettere... Ma piacevole. Piacevole e pronto, e non è pesante, non è pesante, e questo io sto sempre alle ricerca, perché a me piace sia il rosso che il bianco d 'estate, mi piacciono però rossi che si possono bere anche un giorno in cui fa veramente caldo, perché qui a New York ho in viaggio in Italia, a volte fa caldo, per cui fai fatica a avere un rosso importante quando fa un caldo così. Invece è un gropello, benissimo. E quello è gropello, poi ci sono... C 'è un produttore che mi piace, le sincette di gropello e anche un blend di marzimino e melo, mi piace. E il biodenamico, sì, del valtenesi. Del valtenesi, si, si, marzimino, parliamo un attimo di marzimino che è un vittigno super interessante che viene usato in questi, questi blend a volte e poi c 'è comunque un produttore di Montenetto che è un piccolissimo DOC che c 'è sempre nell 'ombardia che fa tre versioni di marzimino che io veramente adoro, lui si chiama San e buonissimi vini. Non sono ancora negli Stati Uniti, credo purtroppo, però veramente ottimo, per cui spero un giorno veranno qui, mazzimino, montenetto. Poi ci sono altri di questi piccolissimi di Rossi come Botticino, che è una zona sopra, vicino a Brescia, che è una zona vicino alle, dove si trova i scavi di Marmo e ovviamente il suolo è Marmo, Calcare, Olimo e lì c 'è una produttrice allo Sandra e l 'azienda si chiama 90 e lei è così carina e fa questi rossi importanti e interessanti con questi vittini che stiamo menzionando, Groppello, Barbara, Marzimino, San Giovese e anche lei bio dinamica. Infatti, quando sono andata a trovarla con mio figlio che aveva tre anni all 'epoca, lei tutto in cima, una collina ha accettato mio figlio sopra la spalla, praticamente accorso sopra. Io invece ero lenta, salivo. Sono stata assalita da tutti questi animali, insetti, perché quando sei in un vittigno che è biodinamico -organico, è così viva che tu vieni a salito dagli insetti, dagli uccelli, dagli animali, è una cosa pazzesca, sembri di essere un dardino di Eden, cioè veramente ti fa pensare che c 'è una diversità tra un vittigno elevato in quella maniera e uno no e quelli no magari sono bellissimi, quelli sì invece sembrano proprio vivi, vivi, vivi. Stato mi ricordo quel viaggio come è una cosa importante per la mia conoscenza anche delle diversità nei vigneti. Sono completamente d 'accordo. Eh sì, è stato un è importante nella mia formazione. Tornando a noi, cosa altro voglio mencionare? Abbiamo parlato di questi quattro, sì, cinque, sei. Non ho parlato ancora, però, di una zona che mi sta a mutto al cuore. Bergamo. Bergamo, una città bellissimo, non bello, di più, e ci sono due parti di Bergmo Bergmo Alto e Bergmo Basso, tutto fatto con questa pietra profonda, importante, molti monumenti sono amante dell 'arte, di cottura d 'arte, di questo pittore Bernardo Bernardino Luini, bellissimi quadri eccetera, i vini lì vengono fatte maggiormente con vittimi internazionali che è interessante vengono fatti con i rossi con Cabernet Merlot, i bianchi con Chardonnay, Sauvegnon Blanc, Pinot Bianco e loro hanno una cantina sociale molto importante nella Valkalepio che si chiama cantina sociale Bergamasco e lì nella zona di Bergmo, viene fatto veramente un vino super interessante, è una chicca, ci sono pochissime aziende che fanno questo vino che è al moscato di scanso, che credo che è più piccolo di Ocg d 'Italia, che ha un moscato rosso e lei è buonissima, un vino dolce, fantastico con tutta quella frutta scura, sfrutta secca che puoi immaginare però profonda e importante come vino solo carissimo e non facilissimo a trovare ma si può trovare sono almeno un paio di produttori che sono già qui negli Stati Uniti. Mi interessa questo vino ricordo una storia di un architetto famoso che ha portato una bottiglia di questo per un regalo a Catherine the Ah però, è l 'Ussia? Giacomo Quareghi, un architetto da Bergamo. All 'epoca i russi anche tutta la nobiltà europea bevevano tantissimi vini dolci, perché il vino dolce era quello più pregiato. Purtroppo adesso si beve molto meno il vino dolce, ma all 'epoca loro sapevano qualcosa che noi no. Però, Sì, un vino molto interessante. Poi, nella Lombardia, cosa ci manca? Abbiamo parlato anche qui la provincia Bergmo, perché abbiamo parlato di Bergmo, Breccia, Pavia. L 'Ambrusco? L 'Ambrusco, esatto. Non abbiamo parlato di Mantova. Mantova è una bellissima città. Anche lì, la zona dove fanno il mio dolce preferito, la Sbresolona, ma maggiormente dove fanno un Lombardo, l 'Ambrusco come si sa viene delle miglia romagna, generalmente non dalla Lombardia, ma questa parte della Lombardia è muto vicino all 'Emilia anche, per cui comunque è una tradizione dei vittini lambruschi. L 'Ambrusco qui, l 'Ambrusco di Mantova, il nome del vino, ma il Vittigno al Lambrusco via Danese, credo, per la maggior parte, però ci sono almeno 60 variate della famiglia Lambrusco. Vittigno è molto interessante, come un dinasaur. Sì, sono l 'amante del Lambrusco anche quando fa caldo, il Lambrusco mi fa sempre piacere perlo e anche qui in Lombardia L 'Ambrusco è l 'ultimo vino che volevo menzionare, è il vino di Milano, che si chiama San Colombano, che è un piccolo D .O .C. che hanno a Milano, che se vai a Milano per qualsiasi motivo, per lavoro, per l 'arte, per i musei, per vedere quel bellissimo Duomo che c 'è nella Piazza Centrale, oppure no, comunque puoi anche andare a visitare una cantina. Per me ricordo che abbiamo un podcast non soltanto vino, ma se altre bevande ancora. Parliamo un po' del aperitivo di Amaro, dell 'Ombardia, sono molto importante. Allora parliamo dell 'aperitivo perché stiamo parlando di Milano. Milano è inventato l 'aperitivo. L 'aperitivo è inteso? Non del mezzia? No, Milano, come no? Milano, il Milano d 'Abbere, cioè Milano d 'Abbere degli anni 80, si beve tantissimo fuori, la sera si esce e si fa l 'aperitivo tutti insieme, qualsiasi bar in città e l 'aperitivo a Milano lo si fa seriamente, non è come l 'appi hour qua negli Stati Uniti, è una roba seria, per cui quando vai in un bar ci sono tutti questi piatti con focacce e cose da mangiare che sono buoni e la gente che ordina che ne so, un negrone o un bicchiere di qualcosa, un vino o qualcosa d 'altro e si fa le peritivo tutti insieme. Tutti gli anni in cui ho vissuto a Milano ha fatto mille aperitivi con amici, nello stesso bar ci si trovava, non è che dovevi chiamare nessuno, sapevi comunque che va in quel bar, trovi i tuoi amici, o se non trovi amici comunque fai amici insia nuove, per cui ho un modo di socializzare molto bello l 'apiritivo. Parlando di aperitivi e cosa altro si beve a Milano, si beve molto l 'apiritivo, si beve molto i negroni, si si beve molto lusprezzo ovviamente con apparel e dopo cena non prima si beve molto l 'amaro ci sono tantissime mari che vengono fatte in lombardia in queste zone di montagne dove ci sono tutte le erbe particolari non dimentichiamo che fernepranca viene da milano che braulio viene da milano Questi storici marchi vengono da Milano, negli Stati Uniti... Braulio e Dimilierbes sono da Alpi, no? Da Alpi, sì, sì, però la ditta del Braulio è in Lombardia. Sì, sì, sì. In Lombardia, se non vado il rato penso di sì. Adesso mi sta venendo il dubbio che viene fatto a Bormio. però comunque Braulio, un marchio storico di Milano, come non parlare della Menebrea, la birra milanese. Sì, sì, sì. Adoro. Sì, no, divertente, divertente Menebrea. No, no, c 'è sì beve tantissimo in Lombardia. Sì, è importante per le persone che lavorano in vino alla fine di un giorno di degustazione, una birra. Assolutamente, sì, sì, sì, una birra, sì, mi piace il Menebrea, infatti un 'età te lo compro anche qui nei Stati Uniti a New York, è strano, però comunque mi fa piacere. Poi ci sono altre altre cose che si bevano, Per cui c 'è comunque una cottura di birra. Torriamo un po' al Amaro, è importante di menzionare che tre i nomi grandissimi come Fenner -Branke, per esempio, ci sono tantissimi piccoli produttori di Amaro molto locale in Lombardia. Sì, sì, ci sono, c 'è anche le grappe. Sì, anche le grappe, e i produttori delle grappe anche fanno diverse digestivi. Sì, sì, perché comunque è una cultura digestiva dopo che mangi di... cioè non è come qua che uno beve fernetto, qualcosa in un altro modo. Lì, lì, perché in Italia, a differenza degli Stati Uniti, per dire, si beve... Prendavo perfeine che è un gran successo per loro. Sì, si beve diversamente, cioè si beve quando si mangia, raramente tra nell 'operativo si va fuori a bere e si beve bichironi enormi, sia divino che di superarcolici, cioè amore di bere è differente. Sì, per me è molto interessante perché non avevo parlato molto di questo nel questo podcast, ma all 'inizio di lavorare in le bevande, all 'inizio lavoravo in cocktails. Allora ho scoperto all 'inizio questi digestivi come un ingrediente, Allora, dopo passare tempo in Italia, dire la verità, sono persuasa di questo ritmo della cena con ogni cosa nel posto a posto, ma sì, è una cosa di differente scambio, di tradizione. Ci sono altre regioni che non avevo parlato ancora? Della lombardia e del vino che mi vengono in mente in questo istante no però sicuramente cioè ah no sì San Martino della battaglia, parlando di storia. Sì, ha interessante storia. La storia è molto bello e lo so grazie a un mio amico Luca Formentini di Salva Capuzza che è un produttore della Lombardia che fa un grupello strapitoso che si chiama San Baggio però lo conosco perché era presidente del consorcio di Lugana per cui anche Lugana suo è meraviglioso però quando aveva tipo 19 anni era anche presidente del consorcio di San Martino della battaglia che è una zona veramente veramente veramente piccola con pochi produttori intorno al Tori di San Martino che è vicino all 'ago di Garda, sempre nella zona dove si produce l 'Ugana, però il vittigno che viene fatto con San Martino della battaglia si chiama "Tucchi" come turbiana per il Lugana. "Tucchi" è il nome in Italia, si dice, di fantasia, di "Toccai". "Tuccai", sappiamo, non si può usare in Italia perché è una regione vinicola della Ungaria, tocca un vino che viene dalla Ungaria, per cui lo chiamano Friulano, per cui questo Friulano, come lo chiamano in Friuli, non stava bene accanto al lago di Gardellombardia, per cui hanno questo nome "Tucchi". come si scrive? Taranto, Udine, K, Imola. Carino. È molto carino. Tu chi? Che buonissimo, magari ti do una bottiglia, perché è super interessante, perché ne ho di Luca. Comunque, nella zona, e perché è famoso questa zona? Questa zona è molto famosa perché fu il sito di un battaglia negli anni, nella fine dell 'Ottocento. Prima di quando l 'Italia è stato unificato, penso che la battaglia ha avuto luogo nel 1859, se non vado al rato, la battaglia di San Martino e Sulferino, quando le truppe del re di Savoia, Vittorio Emanuele, hanno incontrato per caso, non a posto, per caso le truppe austriaci che erano lì, tutte le due parti avevano, erano in guerra, però entrambi regimenti sono andati a dormire e non sapendo che l 'altro regimento era vicino, per cui quando si sono svegliati la mattina si erano trovati impreparati perché se si ricorda come venivano fatte le guerre negli anni in quell 'epoca era una cosa molto più formale, non erano le battaglie come lo fanno adesso nelle guerre, c 'era una cosa più regimentato. Invece qui, dei due regimenti si sono trovati la mattina, uno accanto all 'altro, quando si sono svegliate, c 'è stato un bagno di sangue, una battaglia terribile in cui ci sono stati molti morti. In quel momento c 'era un svizzero che era in Italia, che era un fotografo che si chiamava "Aurie du Nantes", che aveva fatto le foto delle guerre, delle persone e è rimasto così degustato, così irattristito di tutta questa morta, tutti questi morti che erano di fronte a lui che ha iniziato a creare quello che poi sono diventati le convenzioni di ginevra, le ragole di guerra, quando uno ha la bandiera bianca e deve ne lasciare passare i feriti o i guerrieri dall 'altra parte devono essere liberati per alcune cose e lui ha fondato la croce rossa e questa la so perché tutta questa battaglia ha avuto luogo molto vicino al vigneto di Lucca, questo ragazzo di cui te parlavo e due a Sionvino che è un onore di questa ora, il Dunont che ha una lapide nella sua cantina che è dedicata, per cui anche questa zona qui del Lago di Garda ha tutta questa storia, Per cui quando parli con produttori scopri delle cose più pazzesche e immaginabili, inoltre poi sono andato a trovare una produttrice di oltre poco a vese, Muth vicino alla sua cantina e Muth vicino anche a Pavia, a Emilia Romagna, alle A Centoetteri, 50 da una parte, non so esattamente la percentuale in Noverdi all 'altra, a Emilia. Comunque sotto il suolo di casa sua ha un museo romano, un museo romano perché hanno trovato i resti di cose romane di un o un amphitheatro o una villa per cui comunque quando lei scavava per fare un ulteriore vittimio ha scoperto tutte queste cose romane per cui lei ha tutta un museo dedicato ai resti romani che ha trovato nei suoi campi. È una cosa bellissima l 'Italia che laggire in largo e lungo trovi sempre qualcosa interessante in cui l 'Omberdia qui perché penso ancora ci vivo e penso la lombardia come una regione poco conosciuta per il vino però che ha molte cose da scoprire. Brava. In che modo questa regione sta risentendo dei cambiamenti climatici? Si penso all 'Italia in questo momento con i frani, i danni che sono stati, hanno avuto ruogo enemile romani in questo momento. Penso tutta l 'Italia come tutto il mondo sta vivendo problemi climatici. Si sente perché il clima è più caldo, si senti perché l 'uva lo vedemi due tre settimane prima oppure due tre settimane dopo perché comunque l 'inverno è strano ci sono le cose non si possono più prevedere nello stesso modo per cui stanno cambiando molte cose tra questi in alcune zone della lombardia perché è una zona non si conosciuta per il vino come in altri, se possono o che abbiano un 'esposizione che stanno piantando, per cui in passato avranno piantato con l 'esposizione al sud per avere maggior calor e adesso fanno impianti esposte al nord per avere meno sole, oppure vanno più in alto se possono, sempre inoltre a popa vese hanno la possibilità di salire possono andare fino a 600 metri sopra il livello del mare però non tutte le zone lo possono fare per cui non dipende dove sei cosa ti hai permesso si ambigna che è in cantina eppure come nella stessa Francia alcuni stanno vedendo con vittini differenti che vittini sono distante a fare idea le cose e molti, ma molti in Italia, in Lombardia, in questo momento stiamo parlando, stanno puntando sulla sostenibilità perché si rendono conto che non possiamo combattere tutti questi cambiamenti climatici senza comunque avere una visione eolistica della cosa in cui si guarda sotto un ilato di sostenibilità che sia ambientale, economico o sociale. Chiaramente. Susana, grazie mille. Grazie a te, mi fa sempre piacere. Susana, oltre al tuo podcast Vigneto e al tuo blog Avinare, vuoi far conoscere ai nostri ascoltatori il tuo sito web, il tuo Instagram? Certo. Allora, mio Instagram è vigneto Coms con 2MS plurale e mio sito è www .vignetocommunications .com ho anche un sito susannagold .com e la differenza tra i due qual è? Sotto Vigneto Communications lavoro molto per consorzi faccio eventi per la stampa per i consumatori invece dell 'altro susannagold ha più legami con tutte le cose che scrivo, gli eventi che faccio più come presentatrice. Metteremo anche queste informazioni nelle notte della programma. Sì, grazie. Grazie mille per essere venuti allo show oggi, a tutti i nostri ascoltatori. Grazie mille. Ovunque tu vada e qualunque cosa tu beva. Ricorda di goderti la vita e di non smettere mai di imparare. La música está composta de "Ercilia Prosperi" por el grupo OU. Puedes escuchar su www .ou -music .banker .com La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto, registrato, e montato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Steve Silverstein ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S2E7 Avery Robinson Wants a Rye Revolution URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e7-avery-robinson-rye-revolution/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T04:57:17.000Z Culinary historian and bakery manager Avery Robinson works with a nonprofit called Rye Revival, encouraging people to plant and enjoy more rye. Avery explains what’s special about rye for ecology, distillation, nutrition and cultural connection. He shares Yiddish drinking sayings and thoughts on drinking as an agricultural act while he and Rose Thomas taste Balcones rye whiskey and enjoy three types of rye bread from Black Rooster Food. There is a bit of New York City street noise early in the interview as a result of recording with the window open on a hot day in July. > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C09x45upqRB/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C09x45upqRB/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) Learn more about Rye Revival at [ryerevival.org](http://ryerevival.org/?ref=mododibere.com) Order Black Rooster Rye Bread at [blackroosterfood.com](https://blackroosterfood.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Read [The Rye Bread Marriage](https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-rye-bread-marriage-how-i-found-happiness-with-a-partner-i-ll-never-understand-michaele-weissman/19407202?ean=9781643752693&ref=mododibere.com) by Michaele Weissman **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript They toast it together with Amashka, which with some sort of liquor. And so the song from 1868 that preceded the writing of Shalom Le 'ichem's text by 50 years or so, and preceded the production of Fiddler on the Roof by nearly 100 years to the date is really all about how whiskey is there as we are making our agreements. It's there to celebrate these high points in our lives and it's also there as we celebrate the memories of those who have passed and throughout our lives we have a whiskey spirit. And these people were in central and northern Europe, eastern Europe. Rye was the most popular grain for alcohol production over there and also that it's a core to like the way that Yiddish speaking Jews and their grandchildren and great -grandchildren are dancing it today most famously through filled around the roof. So, without we say \[speaking in Hebrew\] \[speaking in Hebrew\] Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. Today my guest is Avery Robinson, a culinary historian in Brooklyn who has degrees in environmental studies with a focus in sustainable food systems and culinary history. Avery is a rye revivalist who does some really interesting work that has tie -ins to food and drinks and culture and ecology. He's a really interesting person and I'm so excited to have him on the show today. Avery, welcome. - Thanks, Rose, I'm so excited to be here. This is really wonderful. - I know, I'm so excited to have you here in my apartment today in Brooklyn. We have a whole spread of rye products that I'm really excited about trying, but first tell us what is a rye revivalist? So in 2020, I started a non -profit with a bunch of farmers and grain policy folks. We're called Rye Revival. We promote rye as a climate change mitigation strategy. How is rye the grain, a climate mitigation strategy? So rye is a small grain and it is the cold hardiest of grains out there. So it can be planted late in the fall, later than anything else after once corn harvest, whether you're in New York and you're harvesting it in November or you're in Wisconsin and it's in October, it gets pretty cold afterwards. And so you can always plant rye after that harvest. And by planting it, you're preventing a lot of soil erosion by keeping roots in the ground, which keeps that soil there. So you're doing the double benefit of holding onto soil and preventing it from being eroded. But also, rye can have roots that grow up to seven feet deep. And so when you have a plant that has roots that are that deep, you're actually tapping into nutrients that other plants won't. And so it significantly reduces the nutrient and input needs of your farm. And by having roots that are so deep and having so many root hairs on those roots, you're actually taking a lot of carbon out of the atmosphere and putting it underground. And so when we talk about, like, how can we get carbon dioxide out of our atmosphere? It's like, we have this amazing tool. It's called agriculture. And we can go back to what people have been doing for thousands of years and plant rye as part of a rotation with our other crops to actually make a really generative, sustainable, and climate -friendly cropping system. In wine, we talk all the time about deep roots and nutrients and minerals, and that's a big thing with wine vines as well. So why do we need to revive rye? Why did people stop planting it? Why do we want to bring it back? People are still growing rye, especially in northern Europe and in eastern Europe. Rye is one of the most their grains that are grown there. And in the United States for many years, rye was an incredibly popular crop. We used to grow millions of bushels of rye. And over the years, rye has been disincentivized thanks to agricultural policies that are both providing subsidies for certain crops and not providing subsidies for rye. It's Rye revival, we're actually working on something right now, we're helping to get more people to have the rye insured. And it's really difficult for a farmer to grow a crop if there's no guarantee that they will make any money. And so we're working on some of these incentives. But also in the 1970s, I think was 1972, rye was delisted from the Chicago Board of Trade. And so it was no longer traded as a commodity, it was seen as like too small of a grain, too small of a crop to actually be recognized as one of the more marketable crops out there. And so as there's been a shift from rye in the agricultural incentives, there's also been a market shift, which is not recognizing rye's exciting opportunities in ways that it fits into many of the products that we are consuming these days and also reflects a lot of the history where rye used to be the American whiskey. Rye bread was among the more popular breads produced in this country. When we think of Boston brown bread, this iconic bread from New England, like the cradle of liberty area, it's corn, rye, and wheat. And so it was the indigenous American grain. It was the cold, hardiest grain rye. And then it was also wheat that makes that beautiful, fluffy bread and is also much easier to control and trace in a kitchen and so are much easier control and and understand. And so there's been a shift away from rye, but there's still bakeries like my own that are continuing to bake rye. There's still distilleries that are producing rye. There are breweries that are making rye PAs. There are people making rye malts. There is a lot of excitement around Rye but it is much smaller. I remember talking with you when we first met a little bit about that history of Rye Whiskey. As listeners of this podcast may or may not be aware, before I got into wine, I started with cocktails. So basically, I'm a musician. So I was always in bars and also sometimes working at restaurants in between playing music. And I became a cocktail creator first in the Midwest. And then when I moved to New York, where I then got really into wine and haven't done as much with cocktails in my day -to -day work. But I remember when I was first studying to become a bartender. And I got some books about cocktails. One of the historical stories that drew me to this topic, and let me know, I'm sure you know a lot about more of this than I do. But what I remember was during prohibition, the east coast made more rye whiskies and then in the Midwest, they made corn -based bourbon. But out here during prohibition, there was more need for, you know, when a place would close, a distillery would close, someone else would move in. Whereas with more space out in the Midwest, people would just lock the gates and nothing would get put in there. And so the way that I understood it was that Rye would never really caught up, you know, especially with then you have to wait for the aging so that you can start make money again. So basically the bourbon distillers could start production right away again. And there was some, this idea about Canada and they have something they call rye whiskey, but it's really a blend, which is a whole other Bollowax. But I just wondered what you can tell us about That story and the history of rye whiskey in America in general Yeah, so I'll start with the history of rye whiskey in America will move towards prohibition And so when the first pilgrims and colonists came to North America They brought with them a lot of grains. They brought with them wheat. They brought with them rye They brought with them barley and a host of others the only native grain to North America is corn And so they came here and they did not have an existing infrastructure for breweries or for malting or for disorders, and so they had to create all that themselves. So any distilled liquor in the, in what is today the United States and also in Canada, like all that came from the European traditions. And as people came here, they had a priority, and we still do this today, of what we use our grains for. So we, we love it for our baguettes, for baguettes for our pizza, for our pita or croissant, you can't do that. You can't make those in such a way with rye bread or with rye grain because rye bread is so dense. We see this in the bread in front of us, there's like no air holes, it doesn't rise. And so rye was often used for animal feed, it was used for a different type of bread. And it was also used as a flavoring agent in liquor. If you were going to make a barley whiskey, you could add rye in there and it would add a certain type of flavor to it. But you could also just make whiskey or a liquor just straight out of rye because it was growing in different regions and it was more hearty of a crop. We like to say that rye is really scrappy. You can throw it in New England like terrible, rocky soils and you will get a good crop out of it. You can throw it anywhere and rye will find a foothold. And so When a farmer was growing this they often were not growing it as the priority grain But they were using it because it was very valuable and they could make liquor out of it And as humans we really do enjoy liquor and we do enjoy beer and we enjoy these other products And so rye was the original American whiskey partially because it was so easy to grow in these new conditions that people didn't know Where would be the best land soil growing wheat, where it would be the best for growing barley and other crops. And so if they happen to have rye, and especially rye leftover, they could use that in their stills. Moving forward, as we expanded our colonization and acquisition eminent domain of North America and moved into the Midwest, where I'm also from, not from Nebraska, but I'm from Michigan, And as we moved further west, the land that we had available to us to put on undertill really expanded. And so Nebraska, in addition to being the home of the corn husks, also produces a lot of wheat, as do many of the other great plain states. And so when you had an abundance of wheat that could come out of those states as well as other places on the East Coast where they got better in growing their wheat, there was less of a focus on rye for many of these products and wheat and corn both made a really sweet whiskey They made really sweet alcohol where rye is known as having a bit more of a Backbone some bite and some spice to it And so if you're drinking a young whiskey which more often than not people were not didn't want to make a whiskey and have it sit for 15 or 20 years they wanted to consume what they wanted to sell it they were interested in having those sweeter whiskies. During prohibition, a lot of American alcohol consumers did procure their alcohol from Canada, which as you mentioned is known for Canadian rye whisky. Canadian whisky is often just known as rye whisky, and my understanding is that Canadian rye doesn't actually have to have rye in it in order to receive that designation. But most whiskey grown in Canada is rye whiskey, or most whiskey produced in Canada is rye whiskey because the grains that they're using for their whiskey are often rye because it's so cold up there that they're growing season is so much shorter and thus the cold hardy benefits of rye actually are rather well received in the Canadian agriculture and distilling public. And so in during prohibition a lot of right that came across the border whether that was from the Canadian Plains or in Detroit we had you know Walkerville across the river from the city of Detroit and people there was a whole huge smuggling ring that was a fairing Literally like on fairies Liquor from Canada to the United States. It was just across the short Detroit River and a lot of that was Canadian rye. And so a lot of the whiskey that sustained the American people, especially in the Midwest, was Canadian rye. And then you have, as prohibition trailed off and as American taste shifted, there was a concomitant shift in the whiskey and alcohols that were being produced and preferred. And a lot of those had to shifted towards clear grain spirits and so neutral flavored alcohol. So vodka started to become much more popular in the middle of the 20th century. And we also see the explosion of tequila. And we also see a shift in many more gin cocktails as well that people are enjoying. And maybe that's just they're doing like gin and tonic or vodka and tonic. But the, I wanted the neutrality, the blandness of those spirits worked in their favor in that time period. - As opposed to the aged. - As opposed to an age, but also just a flavor forward rise. So even a clear rye spirit straight off the still is gonna have a lot of flavors in it, which is why you often don't see so many rye vodkas. And so with that shift of where there was production or where there was a desire and market demand for liquor, and also with the Green Revolution and the amazing expansion of the production of wheat and other grains, rye sort of fell to the wayside because the land that people were using for rye, they realized they could just do corn and soy alternations. They could do wheat and corn alternations, something like that. And they didn't need to have rye for the ecological benefits because the Green Revolution said, look, we have fertilizers, we have pesticides, we have all these amazing agricultural technologies, these inventions that are going to radically shift and our production styles, we're going to get on the yield escalator, and we're just going to have, you know, 100, 200 bushel an acre corn. Wheat is going to go through the roof, and that's what happened thanks to Norman Borlaug and that agricultural revolution. And when that happened, we also moved away from the smaller grains, and we moved away from thinking about farmland as a ecosystem, as part of a green living entity. It was only, it became a productive entity. So tell me more about this green, you're calling it green revolution? The green, the agricultural revolution. The agricultural revolution. What time period are we talking about. That time period is starting in the 1930s but really moving into the 50s and 60s like we see that with what's happening with post -World War II access ammonia and nitrates that we had created for munitions but we're like what are we going to do with all this? Oh, it's an amazing nitrogen fertilizer. Yes, I remember hearing from a biodynamic wine advocate named Monty Walden. I should remember who he was quoting, but the quote was that this conventional agriculture treats the world, the earth with hatred and violence. And that's when I first learned about the actually ammunition starting this chemical fertilizer moment. And I found that to be so striking. Like the, in the organic and regenerative and biodynamic worlds, often the enemies from that agricultural model are the chemical companies, Monsanto, DuPont, and others who made their money and their names during World War II, producing like chemicals that became munitions. And now they're producing more that agricultural. I see. So they wanted to stay in business. I see. From growing up in Nebraska as well, when I became really interested in Italian wine and getting in touch with Italians and other Europeans who were just so proud of an array of agricultural products, whether these were lentils or the local grain or this type of buckwheat and going into different meats and cheeses and of course wine, actually it became angry because I grew up in the bread basket of the country and I felt that I had no connection to the land. I just remember these vast fields of corn and soybeans and this monoculture and I was also realizing that those were only owned by very few people. Someone who was in my life when I was a child who lost their farm and ended up having to work in a feedlot, which is, if you're listening to this in Italy and you don't know what a feedlot is, it's not a nice place for cows. It's a not nice place for cows or people. I just became inspired by just this really strong tradition, the history and the land and just this pride in the biodiversity of those places and in the culture of being farmers and it's something that I never expected to become so passionate and interested in. I thought I was just drinking wine and I wanted to be a sommelier and study those things but of course it leads to so many different kinds of cultural fields of study. So I wanted to ask you, what about the whiskey industry? What work have you done with rye whiskey? - Segwaying from your last comment, I want to acknowledge that drinking to paraphrase Wendell Berry is an agricultural act. Then when we pick up a glass of wine, that wine is not just an entity that came in a glass bottle, but it was actually something that was grown in the field, that someone tended to that crap. Someone had to intentionally plant that crap and then through many steps down the way, we have this bottle of wine, hopefully a beautiful bottle of wine, but you know, even if it's a bottle of two buck truck that is still an agricultural product. And so my work with whiskey producers and distillers, is that really when people go to a liquor store and they're confronted with all these options in front of them, and they're wondering, how can I square my values with also my desire to indulge this vice and to consume a liquor? Where can I meet in the middle? And So when I go to a liquor shop, I actually, without knowing anything about anything on any of the bottles in front of me, if there's a rye whiskey or like a rye vodka, I know that those are actually a very regenerative crop because of the way in which rye grows, because of the way in which rye is a part of an agricultural system, that people grow rye not because they're trying to make money out of it. You can make money out of rye and we can talk about that. and Rye Revival is happy to help, but like really Rye is there to help the agricultural system to help your farmland, to help heal your land and make all the other crops that you grow in that system better. And so when I see a bottle of Rye Whiskey, I know that at least 51 % of the grain in that bottle is coming from farmlands that are actually thoughtful of what is going on in their plant. And when I speak to a distillery, I try and remind them about that because the grains can tell a story. We see this with third wave coffee and how you can pick up a bag at a store or at a coffee shop. And there's a story about that farmer, about that particular finca in Costa Rica or that farm community in Ethiopia, where they're actually picking wild cherries or a community in Java and Indonesia. And so when you get to tell that story of the grain, people start to listen. And I think one of the things that Whiskey and the spirits market in general has done is really been to focus on what is the label and like why is this so exciting and who is our brand ambassador. But my environmental approach is like, "Let rye be a branded basseter." I want to know what's happening with this grain, and I think that consumers ought to be aware of this and not just be hidden behind the cell phone veil of this particular opaque bottle. And when you pick up a beautiful bottle of whiskey, there could be only a dollar's worth of grain in there between the corn, the wheat, the rye, the malted barley, the unmalted barley. There are so little money spent on the actual grains, the product that we are drinking, the one of the four components of that whiskey. So you have the grain, you have yeast, you have water, and you also have the barrel that it's aged in, and that core component that is the product of our land, we're totally neglecting that. And so if we actually open up a bottle and be like, wow, this was grown on this land, maybe there's a story about that farmer, but maybe there's just an acknowledgement that this actually is grown in this county, this region, this state, or even this country, the United States we import somewhere around 11 million pounds or bushels of rye a year, which is just a little bit over what we produce locally. And all of the stuff that we import is for production of food products. So whether that's red, or that's whiskey, or that's malted rye for use in beer and whiskey and other products. And so when we are thinking about how we can actually make a change, I mean, this is not to be an America -first situation, but this is our land that we live on here, and we want to sustain the soil beneath us, and so we get to focus on that. And that's the conversation that I have with our distilleries. And so I've connected with a handful of facilities here in New York State that have created a particular designation called Empire Rye. They created this in 2016, harkening back to American whiskey history to New York being one of the original states producing a particular type of rye whiskey. They said that this rye whiskey, either that we are producing here in New York, needs to be 75 % rye minimum, not just 51 % that is classic for rye whiskey. It needs to be rye that has grown here in the state of New York, and it is rye that has aged here in the state of New York in new American oak barrels for a minimum of four years. When they made this designation in 2016, none of the Empire rye guild members were actually producing whiskey like this. So this was a challenge to them. It was also a challenge to farmers to be able to provide enough local grain of high quality that they could use and they've done that and so now there are eight or so leaders in this Empire Rye movement. Many of them are based here in New York City, but there's also, I think, 20 or so members that are producing an Empire Rye and it's really exciting to be involved with distilleries who are actually going out of the way to find farmers because Rye doesn't exist on the commodity trading market and so you can't go to your standard grain elevator and just get the type of rye that you want. These distilleries are also bringing back particular varieties of rye for particular flavors. And so there's an experience of terroir that one can have with rye because a denko rye grown in the Hudson Valley and a denko rye grown in the um finger lakes are going to produce two different flavor rise, even if they're made from a distillery, a block away from each other that are using the same water. And so we know that about the varieties themselves. And we also know that about the terroir. And so these distilleries are trying to bring back grains. Maybe they were grains that like George Washington used, or there was the most popular rye whiskey in the 19 teens. And there were award -winning rye farmers on an island in Lake Michigan, making rows and growing rose and rye to be this protected seed stock for a rye whiskey that in the 1930s it was advertised as on a bottle of whiskey, this is rose and rye whiskey. I can't imagine a world where like before the, this current moment in the 21st century of someone being like, look, I made this bourbon And I use bloody butcher corn like to say like that's actually very particular that people are identifying a variety And so in the 1930s we see rose and rye and that was marketing cachet And so what is the value add that distillers can get by working with farmers to grow a particular type of A variety of grain and also to grow it to their specifications because again This is not As public of analogy and so working with distillers actually see them Connecting with farmers and they're building these relationships and those relationships translate to a much more devoted and engaged Customer base because they're there for that story. They're not just like anyone can go to like a store and you can buy a $20 $50 bottle of whiskey But why should I spend $50 on this one over that one? Well, there's a story there I can see the see the passion of the culinary historian in these stories, which are so great. And it makes me want to taste some rye. So you brought a rye for us today. Yeah. Okay. So this rye whiskey that I brought is a Texas rye whiskey. It's called Balcones. It's a cast -strength rye, and it is a rye whiskey where all of the grain is grown in the Belcones region of Texas, and listeners may be surprised to hear that, and you as well, that as I say, rise the cold, hardiest grain, you can grow it in every single one of the continental United States, and more rye grain is grown in Oklahoma than any other individual state. Oklahoma, being so near to Texas, one of the varieties that they grow in Oklahoma is this variety called Noble, and they grow another variety called Elban. It's just the reverse, so I'm not entirely sure which one preceded the other because I always confuse this. I need my notes. But Belcone's whiskey is grown with one of those two varieties grown in Texas, all of the grain for this whiskey is grown in Texas. And I first encountered this at a liquor shop in Jersey City When I was visiting a friend over there and I was blown away by this because I have never tasted rye whiskey That is so different from what I Generally experience and that has a very particular and more conventional rye flavor So I'm gonna pass that to you and again be aware that it's a number 26 percent proof So it may need a drop of water. We also here. That's up. Do you want a little water? At this point in the show, if cultural, linguistic, agricultural, or culinary diversity is something you value, please take a moment now to visit patreon .com /mododbere and sign up to become a supporter of the show. Your support is crucial for me to be able to continue doing this work, and I really appreciate it. Avery and I will be here when you get back. So rather than tell you what I thought was so different or exciting about this, I'll let you sort of indulge us. Well, it's got an absolutely gorgeous amber color, which just seems to be kind of vivacious and fun to me. It's a little more orange. Mm -hmm. Mm. Oh, it smells great. L 'chaim. L 'chaim. And we'll get back to that. Yes, I know. I like to start the show with some sayings, but I was so excited too. Oh, wow. There's just so much flavor. It's really expressive. It's really delicious. Now, you drink a lot more rye than I do, I think. Tell me what is so special about this one. So most of the time when people are drinking rye the the conventional notes that a flavor that go along with it are like spice. It's like a black pepper clove type of spice. This and there's many of those other sweet spices that are there. I've had some ryes that have like much heavier vanilla tones. And this rye what I think is nuts about what I am nuts about this rye and what I think is crazy about this rye in particular is that it comes with such heavy chocolate notes. Like I'm drinking this and it's almost like I'm having like an oatmeal stout. The finish is it's so sweet. It's like mmm yes. Oh I can't wait to try it with this fruit bread. Yeah and so the fact that rye can give such a diversity of flavors that like I'm getting a lot of dark chocolate on this, but I'm also getting some toffee in there. There's even like a bit of coffee in terms of like the experience of walking into a coffee roasting shop and you're just suffused with that amazing smell. Like I'm getting whatever the translation of that into terpenes and and esternes uh in like on my palate and I love that and I also love that like this rye I think is only four years old and so this is an incredibly flavorful robust spirit that is so young and I imagine people would pay a lot of money to have like an 18 -year age scotch that could give the complexity of this and many people who love a super smoky beverage would also love something like this. Yes. There is a variety in the world of rye whiskey. And a lot of that has to do with what is the percentage of rye in a product. So there are different varieties. There is a Manangahila style rye, which is a much more rye heavy. And that's the one that is popularized by products that came out of the Manangahila Valley in Central and Southwestern Pennsylvania, and the most famous of those that is still around today is the oldest, the longest -lasting distillery in the country, which is Old Overholt, and they make a rye whiskey. It's often bartender's favorite. It's a great mixing whiskey, and that goes to the Mahila style, which is somewhere between 80 to 90 % rye, and then the remainder being malted barley. There's also a Maryland style of rye, which includes a lot of actually corn in there, so it gets to be a little bit sweeter, a little bit softer. And so you'll have somewhere between about 55 % to 65 % rye, about 30 % corn, and then the remainder is malted barley. There are a few places that will do a 100 % rye. There's a distillery in Alberta, which is the source, if I'm not mistaken, of whistlepigs rye, and at least whistlepigs not farmstock rye, and they do 100 % rye, no malted rye, and they have a particular enzyme that allows it to process and get, and the flavors are able to expand in a way during distillation that you can only get when you include a certain amount of maltose in there. And then there are companies that make bottles that use a 51 % rye. MGP, which is a large liquor producing facility in Indiana, historically has been the source for a lot of what's known as the 95 .5 rye, 95 % rye, 5 % malted barley, which is bullet. I believe believe it's also Redemption Rye, it's Pin Hook and Penelope and a lot of Rye labels that are not actually their own distilleries. And so people would source this juice, as we call it in the industry, from Indiana, and then they will mix it with their own water, they'll slap a label on it, and that'll be that. MGP is getting out of that business of sourcing a lot of juice to other labels, they're focusing now and having their own brands, but for those who grew up drinking or still do, like a bullet rye, that's probably the most popular rye in the country right now, and it's all coming from Indiana, and they make great rye over there, and that's a 95 .5\. So depending on what you like in your whiskey, there could be different proportions and percentages, and there's many different styles, and there are new rye whiskey labels and brands coming out all the time. And it's difficult to know about them because it takes up to like two or four years depending on the aging of this whiskey. - So rye revolution is underway. We just have to wait for the barrels to be ready. I, as I'm drinking this, I'm finding the chocolate, as you're saying, but also this wonderful fruitiness. And there's a bitterness to it, a beautiful bitterness. And you are talking about coffee and chocolate, which have a sweet, maybe fruity and bitter component as well, that whole triangle. But I'm also finding a bitterness that reminds me of warm wood, actually, in this. And I'm just, as you're speaking about so beautifully about all the interconnected things, I do think this would be a great whiskey for Scotch drinkers to expand into is definitely speaking with Scotch drinkers and, you know, being someone who really enjoys Scotch myself. I mean, my dad placed the bagpipes for goodness sakes. I think that, you know, speaking about all those little, those differences, not just, okay, we have this, this bourbon and this is what not to knock on bourbon, but, you know, there are these terroir differences and these regional differences in the styles and the aging and the, you know, this is closer to the sea and those kinds of things. So I think someone who has developed an interest in that could also find an interest in the rye. And I'm also thinking about Amaro, vermouth drinkers, people who are a fan of these flavors from Italy and elsewhere, with that kind of herbal bitterness that this is what's staying on my tongue as I'm finishing and defining that to be so interesting. And also for wine drinkers as well, who are wine nerds interested in this terroir and the biodiversity and everything. I had no idea there were so many types of rye and so many different styles. I was just kind of pleased with myself that I knew about rye at all, you know, other than just thinking about how it played in cocktails. So I'm so excited to know about this. And this is really nice. It's so complex and expressive, but also smooth and really balanced, and I think really good for a wine drinker to be able to find those depths of flavor and those kind of layers in your nose and your mouth. So yeah, this is a great sipping whiskey, as oftentimes in spirits people will like differentiate between a sipping versus like something that you want to use for a cocktail. And I would say historically, Rye has been known for cocktails. Actually, Rye was one of the leading components of the cocktail renaissance of the late 90s, 2000 aughts, as people were going back into the American cocktail canon, and they were looking at what are the different spirits out there, what are the different products out there, and what are their combinations that we can use to bring people back into bars and we can have fun. And so these bartenders, Qua Mixologists, really leaned hard into Rai and are definitely among the people that were pushing distilleries and through distribution companies to actually get more Rai to market. Because years ago, there were a handful of American Rai's, there were a lot of Canadian Rai relatively speaking, and Old overhaul and like written house. They were really like holding down the fort. That has been the classic standby And if you want to have a Manhattan, like that's that's what you need. Yeah, I agree that like slightly spicy It's not gonna get overtaken by the sweetness of that vermouth or by the other components of a cocktail that the rye actually gets to stand Strong in a way that like a cocktail made with a sweet bourbon sometimes has like an alcoholic note to it, but it doesn't necessarily carry the flavor of a lot of those cocktail quality bourbons, which is to say like a sipping bourbon versus the cocktail quality. And the fact that this is also like 126 proof, but it's like, I don't feel an incredible warmth in my body from like, oh my God, I'm actually getting drunk here at like two o 'clock in an afternoon on a work day. You're working. You're working. We're working hard here. Yeah. Cheers. I mean, I'm actually going to add a little ice cube to this. Yeah, let's, while we've got the whiskey out here, I believe you have a local saying for us. Yes. So you had mentioned that I was a culinary historian. In fact, I did my degree in Jewish and American culinary history, and I would say probably the most famous Jewish American culinary drink or drinking scene or phrase comes from Fidel on the Roof. And so Fidel on the Roof, this 1967 play based on a series of Yiddish stories by Shalom Aleichem, which were written in the early 20th century. If you haven't seen it, you really ought to. There's an amazing documentary that essentially says, "There has been a fiddler on the roof production every single day since 1967\. Anywhere around the world, you will find at least one fiddler on the roof production going on that day." It is a universally appreciated play. And one of the songs called "Le Chaim," which is Yiddish forward to life, but it's also the token Yiddish and Hebrew Jewish cheers. And so when I reached out to a friend of mine who is a Yiddish instructor who happened to be in the Yiddish production of "Fiddle on the Roof," he said, "To my query of what's your favorite Yiddish saying?" And he was the bartender in that production. So he like really led this song and he says, "Mach a kois," which literally translates to make a cup. But if you were to mach in the koise and in the Yiddish production of Fiddler on the Roof, in the song "Lachayim," they say, "Davka aggroisa." Mach the koise, davka aggroisa, give me a shot, make it for sure a large one. Oh, I love that. I love that. Here, teach this to me. I want to learn it. So, mach the koise. Mach the koise. Mach the koise. Mach the koise, make a cup. And if you were, you know, going for your country club pour, you go, "Dafka aggroysa." "Dafka aggroysa." So it rhymes. "Macht aggroysa, dafka aggroysa." "Macht aggroysa, dafka aggroysa." Yes. Oh, all right. I love this. Let's enjoy ourselves. That's great. And then just on that theme of, like, Yiddish drinking, there was a popular song that was published in 1868 by a Yiddishist, an intellectual named Michael Gordon, and he wrote this song called "Mashka." Mashka is conventionally translated as whiskey, but it really just means liquor. It could be schnapps, it could be vodka, it could be a whiskey, it could be a slivovitz, like a plum, or other fruit brandy. But he wrote the song Dimashka. And one of the lines in the song, which is about how this person exists thanks to whiskey, is "Zulib der Mashka is der Sirech Geschlossen," which translates roughly to "It is an account of the whiskey that the match, the match meaning of his mother and father, was sealed. And so we see this in the scene in the Chaim, in Fiddler on the Roof. As Reb Tavia and Laser Wolfe are agreeing on the bridal match, they toast it together with a masjga, which with some sort of liquor. And so this song from 1868 that preceded the writing of Shalom Lechem's text by 50 years or so and proceeded the production of Fiddler on the Roof by nearly 100 years to the date is really all about how Whiskey is there as we are making our agreements. It's there to celebrate these high points in our lives and it's also there as we celebrate the memories of those who have passed and throughout our lives we have a Whiskey spirit. And these people were in Central and northern Europe, eastern Europe, rye was the most popular grain for alcohol production over there. And we see this today, like Belvedere makes a beautiful Polish vodka made only out of rye. One of the most popular vodka varieties in the United States is Stolichnaya from Latvia, and that is a about 40 % rye vodka. We still see this today that rye Mai is very popular in the liquor production in central, eastern, northern Europe, and also that it's a core to the way that Yiddish -speaking Jews and their grandchildren and great -grandchildren are experiencing it today, most famously, through "Fiddler on the Roof." So with that, we say, "Lachayim tu leif," "Mach na koisa," "Mach na koisa," "Davka groisa," "Davka groisa." \[Music\] Besides advocating people to farm more rye and use more rye in their distillates and purchase rye whiskey, put it in cocktails, you also have a lot to do with rye bread and I want to know all about that and I want the whole, the story of how you got into this and how you ended up making bread. But I think I first I, I might really like to taste it. So don't tell me what you have here. Please eat. There are three varieties of rye in front of you. The one in the middle of the table is Baltic rye. It's a Latvian root maize. It is 100 % rye sourdough bread. It takes three days to make this bread. There's a little bit of caraway that we chop up coarsely and put in our starter. So we have a starter and then we also have a scald and it takes a while to make this bread and then after it's baked we still need to wait 24 hours until we can slice into it because rye through its own proclivities just needs to wait. Closer to you we have what we call our fruit and nut bread and that one takes the same base rye without the caraway, adds in dried apricots. It adds prunes and raisins and also hazelnuts and it's a delicious, fun, sweet bread. I call that my breakfast through dessert because on its own, or even with a little bit of butter, it can fill in every meal and snack you would want during the day. Close to me is what we call our Baltic Blonde and Latvian Salads. Saltsgemais, a sweet and sour rye bread and it is made with more white rye flour, so less whole grain rye, and it's also made with a not fermented rye malt. So both the root mice, the Baltic rye, and the fruit and nut are made with a fermented rye malt, which lowers the pH and changes some of that acidity and that flavor that you're getting out of there. This one is not fermented and it has more protein and less fiber because it has less whole grain and more white rye flour. They're all amazing. We have a beautiful spread in front of us that you put together. There is a really lovely butter. There's sliced fresh tomatoes, because it's July, late July. And there's, you know, just the season for that. We have some great manchego and also some sliced red onion. And these breads are really good with everything. They belong, of course, with like smoked salted, pickled fish, like a hair ring or like locks. And they also go incredibly well with charcuterie, but like here, like please ask us into states, as we say, eat in good health. - What should I start with, Avery? - So I feel like the move is to start with the classic root rice, the Baltic rye right here in the middle. Just have it a bit as is, and then also add a little butter. I think it's the way to do it. - I mean, I'm smelling it. Oh, it's, it's, mm. It's super delicious. I feel the caraway, but it's not overpowering or anything. I'm gonna add some butter So I grew up in a world to try where rye bread, notably deli rye bread, did not include caraway So it was only when I left my parents house and was like out in the world that I actually understood that most people when they experience rye bread, think of it actually as the flavor of caraway. One of the things that I'm trying to do with this bread here, the black rooster food is the name of the company, is introduce people to rye that is not a wheat and bread. This is 100 percent rye. The deli rye that I grew up on was maybe 20 percent rye. I go to a grocery store, it's maybe 3 percent rye. nor a groyser. This is a lot of rye. A lot of rye. Nor a groyser. What does that mean? Oh, no. Macht a groyser. Oh, yes. More. More. Yes. Extra. A lot. Make it a lot of rye. Make it a big. Make it a big. So, it's really, it is dense, but it's not heavy, I find. It's, it's, I'm trying to figure out what to even compare it to. In your instructions for the black rooster, you say don't use a serrated knife. It's something that slices in a different way. There's something kind of fruity about it for sure. And it has like just a lot more depth of flavor. I think it's really good. - Yeah, so a lot of that fruitiness is coming from that fermented malt syrup. And it's also one of the reasons that it actually goes very well with a salty cheese, salted butter, but also like salted fish and salted meat because that you have that balance of flavor there, contrasting, but also supportive flavors. It's a Manchego here, I'm going to try it with that. Oh, that's delicious. Yeah, it's a kin. In Yiddish literature, there's a lot of conversation about people who would wake up in the morning and they would go to work or go to school by having a slice of bread that they would rub with the herring on it so they would get the oil and maybe they would put some butter on it if they didn't have herring and just like a little bit of raw onion. Ooh, that's right. Should I try that with the blonde bread with that? Sure. Yeah. And I think it's just like, it's something to speak of of like, this is the day -to -day bread. This is the Pen Quotidian of Eastern and Northern Europeans. And they of course ate wheat and bread, but that was their celebration bread. But day in and day out, this is what sustained them. This is what nourished Eastern Northern Europeans for centuries, if not millennia. And that's something that we're trying to hear. It's like actually create nourishing traditional bread. I'm absolutely loving this bread just with the onion. I wish I had some, I wish I had some pickled herring. What's wrong with me? Next time. Oh, this is delicious. Just the thinly sliced red onion is perfect. The fiber is really good for human health, especially for digestion. It's anti -carcinogenic. There's been a few studies coming out of Northern Europe that show that it actually reduces rates of prostate, breast, and I forget the third type of cancer that was shown in the study. It also is much lower on the glycemic index. And so for people who are diabetic or just don't want to have the spikes in blood sugar that come from eating many different other grains or many of different other foods that actually consuming rye because it is so dense, it actually digests much slower, and so the sugar is much more evenly released throughout the day. And because it's rye, and the way in which rye is grown, the way it was rye is processed, I've heard from a number of people that have been told they shouldn't eat gluten, they need to avoid wheat, that many people who actually have been told that and avoid that in their daily lives can eat this and have no ill effect. This is delicious. I haven't tried the fruit bread the fruit the fruity nut bread yet, but I am definitely really feeling the Butter and red onion combo. It's really nice. Now. Let me try this Which I try the fruit bread on its own and then maybe yeah try it on its own if you need to do some Munchaco because I really love the sweet fruit bread with a balance of a cheese especially as I love this with like a really briny feta It smells so nice. This is really beautiful bread. Yeah, I like to joke that there's jewels in it And you can see that with the apricot with the prunes and the raisins and the hazelnut like the contrast of that And that's like does it added protein? There's added fiber because of the dried fruit because of those nuts and that's this is this is delicious Now go back just a little bit. You've been telling me because you know, I want to make sure, you know, if you're straight up celiac, there is gluten in rice. I was one of the sourdough, I was part of the sourdough craze during the COVID. I had an amazing time. I've got to take you over there and show you my flower library. And actually, I was really interested in learning how to do gluten -free baking at that time. And I was actually trying to figure out how to make a gluten -free version of fry using, it was just very hard to replicate. And so I was using grains like teff and exploring what I enjoyed about gluten -free baking. It was quite a challenge because with no gluten at all, you really have to put a lot of different things in there to try to mimic that elasticity and rise that you can get from a gluten -bread gluten. It really is an amazing substance. With my gluten -less baking, which I was also doing, I was really getting into some of these darker breads and these pumpernickel recipes, and my husband really enjoyed them in particular. What I enjoyed about it was the fruitiness, it was this interest, this complexity. And so something I liked about gluten -free baking is there would be all these different kinds of aromas like olives and sweet notes and fruit, and I really got into using teff. So it actually was something that brought me into diversity of grains in general. So I think that Rather than being a closed door. There can be a lot of interest, but of course we're we're talking about something that is Hopefully easier to digest for people, which is great. Even if you don't have any kind of health problems It's also really good for a teeth health because it's such a dense bread that it's actually really good for helping Children, but anyone help align their teeth. Oh Eat too many very soft foods in the past couple hundred years, especially as our production methods have changed and access to, and abundant access to cooking has changed. And so we're able to soften a lot of our foods. And so with that are the way in which our teeth are growing has changed. But there's evidence that shows that eating rye has piezoelectric benefits to your, to your jaw and to your teeth. And it helps keep them straight and otherwise straighten them because it's giving them a workout. Oh, that's marvelous. Avery, you have to try the fruit bread with the Manchego. It's an amazing combination. I'm really excited about it. Yeah, salty Manchego cheese. And so you and I met as I was doing a like an ancillary bread demo to a whiskey demonstration just to help people understand what was happening in that whiskey and why it was different out of the things on the shelf. I came with the whole package of rye berries, the seeds that are the fruit of that grain that we use to make whiskey, that we use to make bread, and talking about how this is a really great counterpoint to that whiskey. Also, as an alternative to what you can bring to your charcuterie platter, if you wanted to do a wine and cheese tasting. You slice up this bread. It slices up very easily with a sharp straight edge knife. It allows you to focus on everything else, but it complements because there's actually like a little bit of flavor there. That is, we're talking about with this manchego with these onions, with this butter, it actually like amplifies the bread. But the bread is definitely not overpowering any of this. And I was really excited to try this wonderful fruity complex, chocolatey, bitter, herbal whiskey with the bread with the fruit and the nuts in it. It's a nice experience, I have to say. I think this is nice kind of in between a bread and a cracker almost. It's not big and fluffy. It is something that I think supports your charcuterie elements really well, but it's not quite as crunchy and hard as a cracker. It's very sturdy and it keeps for a long time, doesn't it? Keeps for a very long time. Four weeks on the counter in the plastic bag, four months in a refrigerator, four years in a freezer. Yeah, but no, it lasts for a while. But also you can slice it up thin and toast it as a cracker. So this way you can have bread. And also if you wanted to have a cracker, if you wanted to have that crunch, just put it in a toaster or like put it on a baking sheet in the oven type of situation. It's so nice. I mentioned this in another interview, which was I think episode eight and nine of this podcast with Lindsay Spear, who has a language collective called Culture Without Borders. You might have a word for bread in your language, but you have a certain bread in mind, usually when you're a speaker of that language, that is your mental image. And somehow we started talking about James Baldwin, and if you look up James Baldwin bread quote, he was talking, I believe, in the fire next time about all of these really big problems in the world. And to me, he seems to pause because he's talking about pleasure as something that's important, as important as all of the other things that he speaks about. But it's kind of fun because I felt like he was saying, and another thing, this bread that we've been eating. And he's sort of talking, I think, about this kind of chemical bland bread. And he's like, we have to be eating good bread. This is really important. And I don't know if that was an American experience that I had, but I know that he spent all this time in Paris. And it's his complete fantasy. I have no, you as a culinary historian could probably help me to figure out how I could research this. But I had this vision of just James Baldwin arriving in Paris and having some amazing bread and, you know, maybe having been eating the wonders of food science bread up to that point and just thinking, oh my God, what have I been missing? I have to to tell everyone. And James Baldwin was writing in the mid 20th century, and he was traveling the world then realizing that this is a bit of an extrapolation assumption on my side. But like, on my part, but like, in America, the most exciting thing on bread was wonder bread. Yes, that's what I'm talking about. That's not bread. It is, there's wheat that has been bleached and enriched and loaded up with all these things. And my bread company, actually we are blackers to food, we trace our origin back to an experience of Wonder Bread. So this company was founded by Yanis Mungalis, who came to the United States as a refugee from Latvia after World War II. His family was sponsored by a church and a community in central Pennsylvania. And they moved there and as they were settling and his mother brought back some wonder bread from the grocery store because that was in the bread aisle and that was there. Not only did the family have no idea what to do with this, but like the dog that was there wouldn't even eat the bread and at which point his mother started contracting with a nearby farmer to sell her 100 pounds of rye flour so that she could make rye bread to sustain the family. And that was the origin of John, John's introduction to rye bread in America was through his mother's kitchen in the same way that he was introduced to it as a child in Latvia before the war. And this company was founded about 15 years ago or so with him and his brother and a friend who were trying to bring that rye bread experience to this country because We've spent decades moving away from nutritious breads. Thank God that there was a sourdough movement in San Francisco and Los Angeles 40 years ago that started to bud this up and provide the basis for where we are today. And in the pandemic, when there was the explosion through social media. But thinking of true honest bread in what James Baldwin was looking for, in what John grew up on, and in which many of us have only come to experience now through social media, but also through a handful of like artisan bakeries or farmers markets. Like this here is a bread that speaks to that. We are not trying to be fancy. This is a bread of the people. This is a day -to -day bread, and it's bread that is meant to nourish you and nourish your environment. And it's also a bread that speaks to this history and culture. And it pairs well with whiskey and so many other good things. It's beautiful. I love it. Now, how did you meet John and how did you start this relationship with the Black Rooster Bread Company? So I met John during the pandemic. I was connected with him while I was working on Rye Revival. One of the folks who started Rye Revival had been introduced to John's Bread probably about a decade or so prior. Whenever she spoke about Rye in that interim decade, She was always talking about John's bread. I met her at a Jewish food conference in 2019 and she had brought John's bread and she was just like in between sessions. She was Sharing this bread and talking about why rye is so great and I was totally hooked So that's how I got connected with her and eventually we started rye revival with some other farmers and other folks And then in the pandemic John realized he needed a ham because he's in his 80s and was running this business but was also retired and he wanted to spend time with his grandkids and all these other things. We connected and he realized my history and my passion for food, for food as culture, food as nourishment, food as identity and also food as something that people can connect to beyond that. And I say that because like farmers to actually look and be like, okay, look, here's my product in this bottle. Here's my product in that grain. When rye's not part of the commodity chain, you can actually do that. And so John realized my passion, my knowledge and excitement for this and invited me to join him on this crazy journey. And yeah, it's been a fun thing. I'm learning all about Latvian life and culture. His wife is actually publishing a book the rye bread marriage, which is about the two of them getting together. And it's a story of love. It's a story of identity. It's a story of finding each other through bread and falling in love with the man who's fallen in love with bread. And like here I am literally in the epilogue talking about Rye's next steps. Oh, I have to have them on the podcast. That sounds so wonderful. They sound so wonderful. And Michael has written books about coffee before finding God in the cup and has spent a lot of time researching and writing about food for decades. - Oh, what a beautiful thing. That's so great. So tell me more about The Black Rooster Company. Where can people buy your products? How much bread are you making? - So we bake our bread. It's handmade in Coney Island in South Brooklyn. And we sell our products at a handful of grocery stores, you can find them on our website, blackroosterfood .com. Most of those grocery stores are here in New York. They're also in the Boston area and in D .C. We're always open to new stores carrying our product, and you can also buy our bread on their website. We can ship you a full loaf of bread, which for the Baltic rye and the Baltic blind, the root mice and the sadske mice, that's a full five pound loaf. And for the fruit and nut it's a two and a half pound of and we can shift you that we can also ship samplers Which are much more manageable size pieces and a great way to introduce anywhere in the United States It's heavy bread. It's dense bread it'll last you a while and We also make sure that all of our employees and most of them are immigrants from the former Soviet Union And also Latin America who are baking a bread some of them are refugees all of them get paid a good wage and that every farmer that are getting respect and recognition for their rye because not everyone's doing rye and we really appreciate what they're doing and bringing forward here. And it's a wonderful small business. We produce a couple hundred loaves a week. The bakery that makes our bread for us makes thousands of loaves of rye bread, but these are the only three that they make that are 100 % rye. they're a great bakery if you grew up on any Russian or Soviet breads as they're often known like a Burdinsky rye or a Riga rye which is rye with a little bit of wheat in there then you may be familiar with that type of bread and they sell that all around the East Coast as well a black rooster food yeah We're certified kosher, there's a little bit of honey in the fruit and nut, but otherwise the bread is vegan. What is that website again where people couldn't try this? Blackroosterfood .com. The logo is a black rooster, which is Janis Mungailis, founder of John. His last name is Mungailis, which translates into English from Latvian as black rooster. Lovely. So nothing to do with the Chianti classical Simple but still very very lovely simple to me. That's fantastic. Well, I love this bread I hope everybody goes and get some it really is delicious and And I just love listening to you to you talk about all of this I think you can see why if it's into everything that I'm doing with motor duperi Where we're interested in local drinks and local sayings But why because it's really all about biodiversity all different types of biodiversity And I'd just love you to speak to, besides to me, the inherent beauty, which could also be a reason. Why is biodiversity important? Biodiversity speaks to the resilience that we're trying to build and encourage and maintain in our systems so that we can continue to be here as a community, as a people that celebrates these cultures, these identities, and these foods for generations. And that allows us to bring aspects of these foods so that, you know, we have hundreds of varieties of heirloom tomatoes. It would be such a sad world if we only had one. But you can't have hundreds of varieties of heirloom tomatoes unless you have many different types of pollinators, unless you have, there's all these tiny insects, there are slightly larger bugs that consume them, there are the animals, and all of these allow for us to have a healthy and resilient natural environment so that that environment can continue to thrive so that we can actually, you know, if we need down the line, we can discover new opportunities and resources for disease prevention, for antibiotic development, but really also to better understand the world that we live in, because we are one creature as a part of a much broader system. And so recognizing that Rai is a part of the system, it has a particular environment that it thrives in, and it has many other environments that it tolerates. But in all of these environments, that it is dependent upon the interactions with other things that in the soil, that there are bacteria and microbes and microrese fungal spores that are allowing this rye to absorb nutrients, that this rye is that bringing carbon dioxide from the air, translating it and transforming it into its root system so that you have carbon in the ground that you need to have a healthy environment in order for this to work effectively. Rye is a piece of that puzzle. And many people, speaking to the broader biodiversity, many people have been using rye for millennia. It is integral to many different cultures and identities. And so this is an opportunity for us to lean into that and actually move a little bit slower and to think and reflect more on how Rai and those cultures have succeeded and stayed strong for generations and how we can adapt and not replicate but be inspired by or translate what's happening elsewhere. And so here in Moda De Bitta, I gave a blessing in Yiddish for how we can drink a glass and also a little bit of a story behind that. And it works well, the translation. It won't give every meaning that is part of that phrase of the Chaim Urmachta Koise. But it's enough for us to understand that in the same way that rai is a part of this whole biological system. And so we get to understand rai as a bread and as a drink, as a plant. And that plant exists in conversation with other plants. It exists in conversation with farmers and also exists in conversation with birds and bugs and water and air. And when we are eating rye, we become much more conscious of that largely because we're not eating air. We actually are aware of this bite that is happening with this rye bread, that there is a chew there. I like to think of rye as being a much more thoughtful grain. I love all grains. I love the Teff Rye wheat bread that Mark Furstenberg makes at Bread First in DC. And Teff is the warmest grain out there. Rye's the cold hardiest. Teff is the heat hardiest. And both of those get to be in conversation with each other in that loaf. And all small grains get to be in conversation. And also larger grains too. And we get to, as we think about Rye, it gives us an opportunity to think about the food system much more broadly and to toast to that and to toast of ways that we can be doing this better, we can be doing this smarter and that we can be doing so in a way that we don't feel bad about our decisions. That's a really wonderful thing. - Thank you so much, Avery. And thank you to all of our listeners. Wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, drink. Always remember to enjoy your life and never stop learning. The podcast was composed by Ercilia Prosperi and performed by the band O. You can purchase their recordings at oumusic .bandcamp .com. Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) Video version by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Cin Cin Trento DOC ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e8-alessandra-caroni-sparkling-wine/) [ The Wines of Lombardia ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e6-the-boot-in-20-lombardia-susannah-gold/) ### ▷S2E6 The Boot in 20: Lombardia (with Susannah Gold) URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e6-the-boot-in-20-lombardia-susannah-gold/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T22:45:37.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s2e4-lo-stivale-in-20-lombardia-susannah-gold/) The northern Italian region of Lombardia is home to the alpine nebbiolo of Valtellina and word-class sparklers of Franciacorta along with a dazzling array of other regions and wines, including Lugana, Oltrepò Pavese, Lambrusco Mantovano and more. Rose Thomas and Susannah discuss the classic/traditional method vs. the tank method for obtaining sparkling wines and the history, vinification and exports of Italy's sweet wines. Susannah describes the three pillars of sustainability, history ancient, modern and medieval; and local products besides wine, including amaro, aperitivo, grappa, heritage grains, local salumi and world-famous marble. Check out Susannah's [Vigneto Podcast](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/vigneto-a-podcast/id1566567910?ref=mododibere.com), where she reviews wine books and talks sustainability. She also has a wonderful wine blog called [Avvinare.](https://avvinare.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Susannah is on Instagram [@vignetocomms](https://www.instagram.com/vignetocomms/?ref=mododibere.com). Susannah offers many different services to wine producers and consumers through her website [www.susannahgold.com](https://susannahgold.com/?ref=mododibere.com). > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1JbzhhOlNT/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1JbzhhOlNT/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript It's just a wine region that doesn't get its due. People don't pay attention to Lumberdy the way that they should and it's an up -and -coming, exciting wine region and visiting Milan is great and I mean we have mentioned about densities today so Mantua, Pavia, Brescia, Bergamo, Milano and there are all those lakes Como, Maggiore, Garda I mean they're all in Lumberdy there's so much to do. So, it's also an awesome place to go on vacation because it's different. And, you know, maybe you're tired of the, I mean, tired. You've been to Venice and Rome and Florence, and, you know, you're going back to Italy and you want to do something a little different. Think about a vacation on Lake Garda for a few days and then cycling a little trip for another few days and going and looking at the amazing museums in on and just taking the, you know, the sites in. And if you have kids, which I do, you can take them to a European kind of adventure park, which is called Gardaland, which is on Lake Garda, and it's fun. Although if you go into Prezemolo's tree, you're going to go upside down. So just giving you a shout out. Be Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sales. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. Today's episode is another edition of the Modo di Bere series, The Boot in 20, where I interview experts on each of Italy's 20 wine regions. We'll talk about history, soil, climate, great varieties, and the myriad of wines in a country where every town, much less every region, has its own particular personality. Today's episode is about the north -central Italian region of Lombardia, home to many different incredible wines. Here to bring us through the region, I am so happy to welcome back to the program, Susanna Gold. Susanna is an educator, writer, and brand ambassador who guided us through the region of Campania in southern Italy. If you haven't heard that other interview, it's episode 10 and it's fantastic. Susanna is a sommelier with ICE, the Italian Sommelier Association. She holds a diploma from the Wine and Spirits Educational Trust. She is an Italian wine ambassador. Susanna, welcome back to Moda di Mary. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. Susana has her own podcast, Vignetto Podcast, V -I -G -N -E -T -O, where she talks about sustainability and reviews wine books. She also has a wonderful blog that is named for my favorite Italian wine vocabulary word, Avinarre, A -V -V -I -N -A -R -E dot com. Susana, what does Avinarre mean? So Avinarre means to fill your glass. You know when you're tasting let's say a white wine and then you want to taste a red wine or you think that your glass doesn't look perfectly clean and you put a tiny drop of wine in that glass and then you swirl it around. That means to avinare your bicchiere or your glass and so the idea of calling my blog avinare and not vigneto was a calculated one for a couple of reasons. I started my blog in 2008, back in the day, when people were writing a lot of wine blogs, and Avinarre starts with an A, so I would be at the top of the list, but also because I thought about it like, what's in your glass? What are you filling your cup with? And at the time, it was my way to still stay connected to Italy, and I had just moved back to the States a little bit before that. So Avinarre. I know. I think of it almost as like a little like baptism or ritual preparation of the glass. And you see it too actually when a new wine glass is brought out, you know, it's like if there's any dust or anything like that, and they rinse it with wine, not with water, and it makes a nice environment. I like that. You baptize your glass. That would not have come to me, but I like that. Yeah, Avinarda is a fun word. And again, it starts with an A. So it's easy to remember. Before we dive into Lombardia, I want to ask our listeners, if you haven't done so yet, to take a moment now to head to Apple Podcasts and leave a five star rating and a real live written review. It really helps with visibility so that more people can find out about the podcast and I really appreciate it. We'll be here when you get back. Susanna, let's go to the map. Where is Lombardia located and what is the region known for besides wine? The way I think of Lombardia is it's in northern Italy and it is kind of in the center of northern Italy. What is it famous for? Lombardia is extremely famous for its capital city, which is Milan, which many people who are, let's say, in the fashion industry will know about Milan because they have a wonderful fashion industry and fashion shows and famous Italian designers like Armani have houses there and do shows there. Milan is also incredibly well known for art. So if you think about The Last Supper by Leonardo, it's not in Rome, it's in Milan, in Sant 'Ameri delle Grazie. Milan is also extremely well known in Italy in general because it's the financial capital of Italy. So I think if you think about Lombardy, it's very famous for its capital city Milan. It's also famous for Italian lakes. So there are four lakes in Lombardy or that are in Lombardy and also in a few of them are also in other parts of the country. And then a couple in Lombardy and Switzerland. So I'm thinking of Lago Maggiore or Lago di Como, so Lake Como, which many people know because they visited Bellagio or because they think George Clooney has a house there. For whatever reason, it's a lake that a lot of people know about. And many years ago, people knew about it because of the silk industry. So a lot of silk shirts and silk ties would come from Lake Como. Then there's another really famous lake in they're in Lombardy, which is called Lago di Garda, so Garda Lake, which touches on Lombardy, the Veneto, and Trentino at the tip. And then there's Lago di Zeo, which is in Lombardy, very close to the wine region Francia Corta. So those are some of the things that I think people think about. I mean, there's so much to think about there. Lombardy is a beautiful, huge region and very important in Italy in terms of history, culture, finance, fashion, and wine. If you had a friend who'd never had a wine from Lombardia, what are some of the first wines that you would suggest? Lombardy has amazing regions. I can think of about 10 that roll off my tongue because I lived in Lombardy for 10 years. I lived in Milan for 10 years. So, as you can see, it's a region that I'm very passionate about. The first wine regions that will come to mind are Franciacorta, where they make traditional method sparklers out of grapes such as Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, Pinot Bianco, and a local grape called Herbamat, and I love Franciacorta wines. They were some of my first sparklers in Italy. Lombardy is also extremely famous for its Nebbiolo, which is made in a region called Valtelina, which is a mountain region. They like to call it Nebbiolo from the mountains, so Nebbiolo is the same grape that you find in the very well -known wines from Barolo and Barbaresco. But here in Valtelina, it's made in the mountains, and it's just a beautiful, beautiful version of Nebbiolo, and they do incredible heroic viticulture because It's actually, the mountains are pretty steep and very impressive. And it's an exciting region to visit as well. I forgot to mention that there's loads of skiing in Lombardy. So people have probably skied in Lombardy as well. And in terms of wine regions that people know about, hopefully they know about Oltre Popaveze, where I am the brand ambassador. And Oltre Popaveze is actually the largest region in Lombardy. It makes about 62 % of Lumberdy's viticulture, and they make great sparkling wine, still wine, sweet wine, and they have a huge variety of grapes, but they specialize really in four. So Pinot Noir, Ultrapo has the third largest concentration of Pinot Noir in Europe, of course, after Burgundy and Champagne. And then they have great Riesling, Riesling Rieslingrenano, which is the German Riesling, is fantastic from Oltrepo Pavese. Oltrepo means on the other side of the Po, and it's a region around the city of Pavia, which is a beautiful town. And if you've ever read The Red and the Black by Stendell, they talk about Pavia. That's a beautiful, beautiful region as well for cycling. So like a bike race that goes through Italy. The Giro d 'Italia goes right through through Ultrapapavese often a lot of people in Italy like to cycle and Ultrapap was kind of like the Hudson Valley from Milan in terms of both the landscape and the proximity to a city. So anyway, I digress about Ultrapap just because it's close to my heart and they make it a really exciting sweet wine with not the best name. So Sanguidi Giuda, it means the blood of Judas, but It's a fun story behind that, and it's a sweet wine that's made from a blend of grapes. They also have a lot of bonard though there. So it's a very interesting wine region. So those are probably the three wine regions that you may know about, but then there are other wine regions that I'm incredibly passionate about as well. One of them is Lugana, a region I've worked with for eight years, and that makes just amazing, amazing white wine from a grape called Turbiana, which is also called Trebbiano di Lugana. And it is a biotype of the same grape that makes Verdicchio, so as from Le Marche. And many people think of Verdicchio as one of the Italian white wines that can age. So Lugana is also one of the white wines that can age, but it's also a great wine to drink now. It's a beautiful wine in the spring and in the summer. Lugana is made into five styles. I know tons of things about Lugana so I can wax poetic about this beautiful wine region that I really love. And it's on the shores of Lake Garda. So it's also, from a tourist point of view, a beautiful place to visit and vacation. So those are a couple of amazing wine regions, but there are many others. Should I continue? Please tell me more about these regions in Lombardia. Okay, so there are other regions in Lombardia, which are a little bit less well known at the moment, but I'm sure they're going to be famous in the future. So one of them, a region I'm really passionate about and I keep trying to get them to come here. And of course, make me the brand ambassador is called Valtenezi. Oh, I was going to ask you about this. Oh yeah, I love Valtenezi. The gropello and the chiarretto. Yes, I love gropello. It's just an amazing red, light red wine from the lake and they make it into a Rosato, which is called Chiaretto and on Lake Garda and the area is called Valtenesi and it can either be a hundred percent gropello or it can be a blend of Barbera, gropello and sometimes people use San Givese or Malzimino but a lot of producers are really making it a 100 % crepello. And I love that risotto. I mean, I like risottos in the summer, spring, and in the fall. I mean, I love the wines from Valtenes because they've got beautiful structure, you know, more depth of color than, let's say, a Provençal rosé. But it's a long history of making chiarretto in that region. They mentioned some historical documents. They call it the wine of one night. So There are different ways to make rosé. One of the ways to make rosé, which is called the bleeding off of the grapes, which in Italian you say "salasso," in French you say "saigné." So "salasso" means that you take a red wine and you take off some of the first -run juice and you make the rosé from that. So it's a much lighter style of risotto. There's a second way to make rosé, which is that you just let the grape skins macerate for a very short time, and that's really the way that the Chiarato producers do it. So what Rose was saying before was like the wine of, you know, it is a romantic story, the wine of one night, the wine of one night because the grapes were allowed to stay on their skins for 24 hours and then they were taken off the skin. So, you know, one night of passion for the grapes and a brief moment of passion for the grapes with their juice out of the skins and then they take away the skin. So that's the second way to make rosette. And other people in the past used to kind of blend red and white grapes, but people don't use that anymore. Except for in champagne. Except for in champagne. Hinds don't really, we're not saying champagne method, champagne is champagne that may be more familiar for listeners in explaining the term "metodoclassico" or "traditional method." That's what we're talking about, the fancy bubbles. They're right, the fancy bubbles. So correct. Well, I can go back for a moment and talk about "Otre Popovese," where they also make classic method, sparkling wine, this time generally from Chardonnay and Pinot Noir, mostly from Pinot Noir. "To the classic method" means that the secondary fermentation takes place in the bottle, and that's the biggest difference from the secondary fermentation taking place in the tank, which is what happens usually with a different method, which is called the Charmat method. Or the Martinotti method. Or the Martinotti method, if you want to say. Then why am I bringing that up? Yes, because Martinotti was an Italian and apparently he and the Mr. Charmat, whose French came up with the same process at the same exact time, but a Martinotti method is used generally when you talk about Italian wines that are made in this autoclave tank or Martinotti method, whereas Charmat is more kind of international as an Italian Italo file. Of course, I'd like everybody to use Martinotti, but I have to say that most people don't. - But it's the same process. I have to say, I find the tank method, the martinoti method to be really fun to watch. I was able to visit some Prosecco producers. 'Cause so basically, you know, if you go back to fermentation, you don't think about it and it's still wine because it's allowed to escape. But one of the things that happens is carbon dioxide is bubbles. And so you can trap those bubbles in each individual bottle or you and keep them enclosed in this big tank and then bottle the wine under pressure. There are also other things associated with the traditional method, like longer aging on the lease and things like this. And I understand that Francia Quarta has stricter minimum aging requirements than in that place, that other place in France where they make traditional– - The place that we don't mention, yes. Francia Quarta does have very strict aging requirements. Also when you're making a classic or traditional method, wine, you can do the dosage differently. So, there are many different styles from sweet to, you know, Brut nature, which has, or dozzagiozero is what you would say in Italian, which has no sugar added at the end, right? Where is it standing in the quality of sparkling wines in the world? Franciacorta is a beautiful, beautiful sparkling wine that's been famous since about 1961 was the first vintage, and the maker, you know, the creator of this wine region was someone named Guido Berluchi with Franco Zilliani. And what happened was he looked at the soil, he visited Champagne, and he loved Champagne, and then he looked at the soil at home, which as I said at Marble, because because this is all right. Buticino is near the same areas in Brescia. So he looked at the soils in Champagne. He thought, well, we have those chalky limestone soils near me as well. So why can't I make an amazing sparkling wine? And that's how it started. And his first vintage was in 1961, which is a wonderful wine from Perluki, which I have had. And it's just a really, really lovely version of sparkling wine, you know, compared to the Champagne, French Eclipse does not have a 200 -year -long history, like, or longer, like Champagne does. But certainly, you know, these wines can give Champagne a run for their money. I mean, they're really, really fine sparkling wines, and some of them are aged for 60 months, so that's five years on their lease. I mean, you know, just profound beauty you can find in some of these Francia Corta wines. And when I first lived in Milan, you would go to a bar and they'd ask if you wanted a sparkling wine and they would literally say, "Do you want a Berluki or a Ferrari?" Which is the maker of sparkling wine in Trentino. Those were the choices. They wouldn't say Francia Corta or Trenta Doc. Now they would. So So Franciacorta is very famous at home and now also abroad. They've done a whole bunch of work here in the United States through the years as well. - They are just bringing it. They are giving every other wine a run for their money. They are trying to make the best sparkling wines in the world. They're really trying to earn that reputation and bring that quality. - And there is also a still wine that's made in Franciacorta called Kurti Franca. So Franciacorta as a region, the area, used to be like a text -free zone. So it's been famous, you know, since like the year 1000, it's a very famous historical region as well. The traditional method is generally used in Italy in about four different regions for sparkling wine, Francia Corta and Oltre Popavese and Lombardy specifically. And then there are two other areas that are not in Lombardy, but we can mention them. One is Alta Langa, which is a beautiful sparkling wine region in Piedmont, wine made in Piedmont. And then of course, Trento Doc in Trentino. But everywhere else in Italy, people generally, when they make a sparkling wine, use the martinotti method. And why is that? So the martinotti method is not so much about kind of the creamy, yeasty, toast, brioche expression that you get, like in a beautiful Franciacorta. It's more about the primary aromas of the fruit. And That's why most Prosecco, although not all, there's a tiny bit of Prosecco that's made in the classic method, is made with the Charmat method because they're trying to keep the primary aromas of glera, which is the principle grape variety that's used in Prosecco. Just like in Asti, they use the Martinotti method because they want to keep the primary flavors of muscata. Yes. And the other big difference is time, Because with the bottle -aged traditional or classic method, the terms mean the same thing. You are spending this time on the leaves, which are the spent yeast cells, and as those break down, it contributes to those toasty bread flavors, but it also makes the bubbles less bouncy and more persistent. But it's different bubbles for different occasions. Well, also, it's stylistically what people are looking for. And this leads me back into Lombardy because another wine that's made this way is lambrusco. When you have a frizzante lambrusco, it's usually made in the martinotti or tank method. Lambrusco, generally speaking, people think of lambrusco coming from Emilia Romagna, but there also is an amazing lambrusco that comes from Lombardy. There's a delicious lambrusco mentovano, and I believe that the "Lambrusco mantovano" is made from lambrusco viedanese, I think is the name of it. Viedanese is, I believe, the name of the particular lambrusco variety that is made into lambrusco mantovano. In Lombardy, the name of the wine is "Lambrusco mantovano" from the city of Mantova, but great varieties that have the name "Lambrusco" there are over 60 of them. Most of the ones that make lambrusco in Emilia Romagna, there are like seven that people focus on really. And four that are even more famous and maybe someday we'll have a lambrusco conversation 'cause I'm a huge lambrusco fan. - I am here for that, I am here for that. - As you can see, but we'll be drinking at that time because we are not drinking now. But lambrusco mantavano is a really fun wine from Lombardy which I wanted to mention, so I'm glad we were able to bring the conversation back to Lombardy. And then there's some other interesting wines that come from Lombardy that you can find. For example, there's a really, really interesting sweet wine that comes from Lombardy called Moscato Discanso, and it's one of the smallest or the smallest DOCG in Italy, and it's made from and Moscato, which is very interesting that there's a red Moscato grape, but there is and it's one of the very, very few red sweet wines in Italy. Some of the others ones that I can think of are like, you know, Ricciotto della Valpolicella, Sangue di Giuda also is a red from Oltrapopavesa is also a sweet red wine, but Moscato di Scanzo is very famous and having talked about Moscato Moscato Discanso, there may be 19 producers or some very small amount of producers of this. Wasn't there a story with Moscato Discanso being admired by Catherine the Great? There may be. I don't actually know that story, but very possibly. I know about Moscato Discanso because I used to do some work with Bergamo and Moscato Discanso comes from Bergamo, and it's the sweet wine from the area, whereas the still wine from the area around Bergamo is called Valcalepio. Have you ever heard of Valcalepio? So Valcalepio is the wine region near the beautiful northern lumbered city called Bergamo, which Bergamo is a beautiful, beautiful city. There's Bergamo Alto and Bergamo Basso. And so the wines that from the area are called Val Calepio, and that's kind of the DOC from there. And that's really lovely as an area and Moscato Discanso is right near Bergamo, so those are the wines. - I'm looking this up, and this is the story that I remember, that Giacomo Quarengi, who was a famous architect and painter from Bergamo, supposedly gave Catherine the Great of Russia a gift of Moscato Discanso. - Oh, So then it ended up traveling from Russia to London and became popular in London. What do these sweet red wines taste like? The red wines have a lot of sweetness, but they also have structure. And of course, the flavors are not the apricot, caramel, golden apple that you might find in a honey that you'll find in a sweet or Pasito dessert wine, right? So the red wines have more berry fruit, more kind of soto spirit, which means like, like, um, like under like cherries under alcohol kind of thing. Like they like to say the Amarasca, which is kind of cherry. Um, and there have a lot of kind of forest floor and like that dark fruit notes and some spice and generally speaking they're really good with cheese or with a really dry dessert. So they're my favorite dessert in the world is a dessert from Mount Ava which is called las brisolona. It's like a really hard kind of chort you know, like a tart, it's got nuts and all of these dried flavors. It's like really, it's a dry, you know, a dry rather than a wet kind of pound cake dessert. And it's this bit of solona because you, you know, you break it and it breaks into little pieces. It's just amazing. It's not like a crumb cake. It's like a better, but the topping of a crumb cake is sort of got some of the same aromas and flavors, but this has more nutty notes, and it's great. I love Spursolona. I would love that right now, in fact. Me too. Can we just get on a plane? Yeah, let's get on a plane. Or are you just trying to find this in New York? I don't know if it's possible. I don't know. I don't know. I've never seen Spursolona on any dessert menu. It's a really fun dessert. But speaking You know, dessert wines are hard sell and very few people drink dessert wines after dinner in the States. So these are... I would love to change that. That was the first thing that changed for me when I got into wine, when I started to learn about the process and everything that goes into these wines and about how prized they've been throughout history and the labor and the... When I got to meet some producers who, you know, talked about these processes and how precious they are. Tell us about, why is it called Pasita? Why am I getting so excited about you saying that dessert wines are underrated? So dessert wines are underrated because of the way we eat our meals in America. Also, we don't generally finish with a wine. First, we didn't initially drink wine at dinner. Now we drink wine at dinner, but we tend not to have a dessert wine at the end of the meal, right? So I usually drink my dessert if I can, rather than eating it. I'd rather drink my calories than eat them. I mean, I feel that way about all food, generally speaking, but especially about dessert wine. So the process of making a dessert wine is generally something that's extremely historic. Often these dessert wines were given, let's say, to the local priest. and they're always made in small quantities. Nobody ever makes a huge amount of dessert wine. So there are different ways that you can make dessert wine. One of them, a passito means dried grapes, that you've used dried grapes. You can dry grapes in a variety of ways. So you can either dry grapes on the vine and pick them in late November, early December, when they've lost most of the water and it's kind of like a raisin on the vine. That's one way to get dry grapes and then you press that, right? And then you would put that however you're fermenting that and then aging it. And often, desert rinds are aged in small oak barrels, but not all the time, but often. So that's one way to dry the grapes. Another way to dry the grapes is on something called gratici, which are of you know wooden flats that have slats in them and you dry the grapes and that's another way and then you and you do that in a in a room let's say in Tuscany you would call a vincentaya so that's where vincento is made in other parts of the country would be called a frutayo like the fruit is drying on these on these in these racks and it's really beautiful if you've ever seen it people also dry grapes on strings, that's also really exciting to see, grapes drying, and all of this is raising the grape. And of course in the past, people would lie the grapes out on mats in the sun, and they would dry grapes by the sun. Now, when people pick the grapes, sometimes they put them in crates and they let the grapes dry on top of each other in a room that has air conditioning in it, or the windows are open, so there's ventilation. And of course, we haven't even talked about, in Italy, there are different ways and names for grapes. So it could be muscato discanso, it could be a passito, a wine could be vendemia tardiva, which means late harvest. It could be grano or, you know, it's like VGN, so they, you know, selected grapes. So there's a lot of different kind of nomenclature as well about different sweet wines. So when you're, when you're taking all of that water out through this process of time, you're being left with very, very little juice in the grape, but it's so concentrated. And so sugary. You just get this like soul of the grape, but it's just these, these really incredible flavors. And then, of course, there is that sugar, and that's a preservative. And also, there's going to be plenty of acid, too, because if you're going to be making a late harvest wine with any balance, you're going to be choosing a grape with some nice acidity, too, so that even though it's got this wonderful sweetness, then that is a wonderful acidity to come and clean your mouth. And they're just very precious and prized. And you know, It's a lot of work to make these things for just a few bottles. Yeah, it's a lot of work and they're very expensive and that's another reason I think that they don't do so well on American menus, but it's really because we lack that tradition for the moment. Well, people understand about drinking coffee after dinner and they're starting to drink Italian Amaro after dinner, so maybe that can be the next step. Let's bring it. Let's see. Anyway, so there's this very, there are these two amazing sweet wines that are very specific just to Lombardy. One is Moscato Discanso, which is a DOCG, which as we talked about means it's a denominazione d 'origine controllata in garantita, which is the highest level of Italian wine. And then we have Sangui di Giuda, which is is a DOC from Oltrapapavese. Before we stop talking about viticulture in Lombardy, I just want to mention a couple of other really, really small regions. Oh, please tell us how the regions. So one is called Boticchino. And Boticchino, they used to have a DOC, but at the moment they're really like four producers making wine there, but they're amazing wines. And they are in this area near Francia Corta, so near the town of Brescia, and they're near a marble quarry. So a lot of marble comes from the area of Brescia, like the marble, for example. In the White House, there's a fireplace that was the marble comes from this area. And there's a big altar in Rome called the Ara Pacis, which actually also comes from Boticchino. So the soils, my point is that the soils, this kind of limestone calcareous soil, so it makes these really great wines. It's called Boticchino, and then there's another one, which is called Monteneto, tiny little areas in Lombardy that makes the best marzimino I've ever had, and I love marzimino, a really fun red grape variety and a particular producer I'm thinking of called "Sami Kele" makes amazing marzimino in a host of different ways, including a marzimino passita, which are those wines that you're like, "Why can't I get that here? Why can't I drink that here today?" Oh, you know, real quick, while we're talking again about sweet wines, I have to mention "Sforzato." Of course. So, "Sforzato" is not a sweet wine, though, so it's not really a sweet wine. But it is made with the dried. It is. But it's like saying "Amarone" is a sweet wine, right? Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. Sforzato is a nebiolo made in Valtellina that does have dried grapes as part of the fermentation. And it's a very important and very special nebiolo from Valtellina. It's called sforzato, or what they would say in dialect is sforzat. And it's really special and It reminds me a lot of Amidona in terms of the process of how you make it and the dried grapes, but I would not necessarily say that that's in the same category. No, no. You're right. But as far as the dried grapes, I did have this experience of being in a fruitio, which was actually a barn where you would open the front door of the barn and you would open the back door of this loft this old barn loft with the different grapes drying for the to make the Sforzato and it was just a beautiful you know with the mountain air coming through. Oh my god it's amazing. Yeah you know I gotta put in another word for the the Nebiolos of the Valtelina region the the terroir is completely different completely from the Nebiolos that you may have heard of from the Langae region in Piedmonti the alpine character the the lacy body, beautiful berry flavors in the just lifted nature, and it's just, yeah, they're made on the Alps, in the Alps. Yeah, they're great. No, I mean, I love those ones. They're beautiful. And they also, "Valtelina," shout out to "Valtelina" for their "Brizala," which is a charcuterie from there that I love, and I used to eat every day for lunch when I lived in Lombardy. They have great cheeses in, I mean, these are mountainous regions, so they have amazing cheeses and you know, charcuterie and other delicious things and really fun pasta which is called pizzocchiri which is made from the grano saraceno which is like a saraceno means like the saracens so it's a dark pasta that's only grown here in valterlina in this region valterlina in lombardy and it's called grano saraceno and the the Pasta itself is called pizzocchetti. - Similar to buckwheat, the word. - It's similar to buckwheat, but a little stronger and a little darker and a little grainier. - So I, on my trip to Valsalina, which pretty much changed my life, it was so beautiful and such an adventure that I remember the pizzocchetti very well and it's this thick kind of rough cut pasta just slathered in this wonderful cheese that doesn't really melt all the way with cabbage and potatoes. So it's just this incredibly hardy and meal and as you're eating it, it's like the cheese from, you know, a slice of pizza that you're lifting from the from the pie, just trailing off of your fork and, you know, through the air and it's it's got and it's like very heavy food. Delicious, delicious, but you have to have the right mountain hiking after, you know, it's the kind of thing like if you worked on a farm and you ate that for breakfast at, you know, five in the morning and then you really worked hard all day, but wow. - And it's these incredibly steep, steep vineyards that are so ancient and just take such an intense amount of manual labor. And it's really, so yeah, - It's a very special area. - You need your energy to do that kind of work for sure. - True, true. So I think we've covered most of the areas that I wanted to mention in Lombardy and I always feel that it's a wine region. Oh, no, I forgot one. So Milan has its own wine and it's called San Colombo. I forgot to mention that San Colombo and it's there's a consortium and it's right next to it's right next to the city. And there are a few producers who are producing wines there, and if you got to visit Milan, you can actually go to a winery. So, yes, now I feel like I've done Lombardy Justice. So what I was trying to say was that it's just a wine region that doesn't get its due. People don't pay attention to Lombardy the way that they should, and it's an up -and -coming, exciting wine region. And visiting Milan is great. And I mean, we have mentioned about tensities today. So Mantua, Pavia, Brescia, Bergamo, Milano, and there are all those lakes Como, Maggiore, Garda. I mean, they're all in Lombardy. There's so much to do. So it's also an awesome place to go on vacation because it's different. And you know, maybe you're tired of the, I mean, tired. You've been to Venice and Rome and Florence and you know, you're going back to Italy and you want to do something a little different, think about a vacation on Lake Garda for a few days and then cycling on El Tripoli for another few days and going and looking at the amazing museums in Milan and just taking the, you know, the sites in and if you have kids, which I do, you can take them to a European kind of adventure park, which is called Garda Land, which is on Lake Garda and it's fun. Although, if you go into Prezemolo's tree, you're going to go upside down, so just giving you a shout out. Just be ready. Be ready. Yeah. But it was fun. I mean, little kids, my son now, he's eight and he thinks like, "Oh, that was for little kids." I'm sure he'd find things to do. But it was great when he was about six. We really loved it. Now, we called this a big wine region, but this is all kind of in relative terms, right? So really what I experienced during my recent lovely, lovely trip to Lombardia was things are, you know, if you, if you run a car, which can be very helpful for, I will say all of these lakes and stuff that you can get to on the train and it can make a really nice little tour. But it does help when you, if you want to visit wineries to go ahead and do the driving and be ready and don't, don't let them talk you into upgrading into a bigger car. Because with the mountain roads, you want something a little smaller. I mean, but you know, it's mostly big, big highways and stuff in Lombardia too. So, but you know, it's like two hours, two hours up to this part, and then two hours back to this part. So it's not, if you wanted to hit some of these wine regions that, that, that you're talking about, you could, you could definitely spend, I don't know, a week or something, you could have an amazing, you could spend more. Yeah, you could spend more. But if you had a week, then you could do a week and you could do a lot of stuff in a week. No, it's a small region, relatively speaking. I just meant there's so much going on here that I think people don't realize. They think, "Oh, yeah, there's French Accord and that's it, or there's Veltelina and that's it," and that's just not true. There's really a lot going on here. I'd like to take a moment at this point in the show to thank our Patreon supporters. This support is vital for the show to be able to continue, and I really appreciate it. If you're finding Motodibare educational, entertaining, or both, if you're perhaps a student of wine who is finding particular value in the Boot in 20 series, I hope that you'll hit pause for a second and head over to patreon .com /motodibare, where you can join other fans of drinks and dialect and unlock bonus content. I'd love to be able to continue to do this work. Another great way to support the podcast is to tell someone about it. If you have a friend or a colleague who is a language nerd or a wine lover, please send them a link to the show. A word of mouth referrals and posts about MotoDBerry are an amazing way to support this work as well. Thanks so much for listening. Can you talk to me a little bit about the major climatic and geological features? We mentioned the marble, we mentioned the Alps. Sure. There are the Alps and the Apennines, of course. There's the Po River, which is the largest river in Italy that runs right through Oltrapapavesa near the town of Pavia. So that's a very big influence on the area. There's the Pianura Padana, which means the planes of Padania is the ancient name for Milan and Lombardy. So there's a huge plain that runs from the Po to Emilia Romagna. In some parts of Lombardy, for example, in Oltrepo, you have the influence of the mountains that comes down from Piedmont as well. But you also have the influence from the Ligurian Sea, which comes up at the very tip of Oltrepopovese, touches Liguria. So, it's the ultrapapavezes shaped like a grape bunch. So, it touches Emilia, it touches Piedmont, and it touches Liguria. So, another climatic influence is the sea, so the Ligurian sea. So, you have Alps, mountains, rivers, different topography. I'm thinking there are no volcanoes that I can think of in Lombardy, but you know, you have a lot of different soils because there's different elevation in places. The places that are planted that are closer to the Po River, of course, flat, the Nebula from the mountains that you're getting in Valtelina is on very high elevation slopes. The wine region around Lake Garda is also very flat. Lugana goes from about 80 to 150 meters above sea level, which does well to Tennessee. So, you know, very not high elevation. And the other thing to remember is there's a lot of kind of commission, as what you would say in Italian. But in English, you would say kind of transferring of interest of grapes and knowledge. A lot of producers in Lombardy, let's say, also have vineyards in the Veneto, for example, certainly on Lake Garda. I mean, Lake Garda, Lugana is a combination that belongs to two regions, so Lombardy and the Veneto. A lot of producers who make wine in Lugana have their headquarters in the Veneto, and all of that influence from the Veneto winemaking, all of that is huge. Veneto is one of the biggest producing regions in Italy. But at the same time, Lombardy is impacted by Piedma. Look at Nebiolo came from Piedmont. So there's a lot of crossover there, or from Emilia Romagna. There are grapes that grow in and styles of wine that are kind of fizzier, lighter, and more frizzante, like the lambrusco that you see in Emilia Romagna, in Mantova, and also in Oltrepapavese near Pavia, because they're very close to Emilia Romagna. And then you get influences from the Guria, which is also close. And, you and there's a lot of different great varieties that you'll come across in Lombardy that you found in the neighboring regions. Were you saying that Nebula originated in Piemonte? In Piemonte, yeah. It also grows in the Valdosta, which borders with Piemonte. What I'm trying to say is there's a lot of crossover between the different regions because you were asking about climatic and topography. Also, those lakes are so huge. The lakes are huge. They really moderate the climate. They are. When I was in Valtelina, I was so ready to wear my coat. Of course, we were just blessed with beautiful weather, but the mountains are so tall. You're right there in the Alps. You're right there on the Swiss border. But it was early spring and there were so many flowers, already roses, just these beautiful succulents growing out of all of the rock walls. And it's It's just this wonderful protected warm spot with the moderating influence of those big bodies of water. And also the big mountains, right? So they protect you from the Tramontana, which is the northern wind. So there's a lot happening here, but yeah, I mean, Lake Garda is the biggest lake in Italy. It's much bigger than actually Como and Maggiore, and it's very deep. It's the deepest lake in Europe or the second deepest after Lake Balaton. So that's a huge influence on viticulture in the whole area. Yeah, those are, I would say, the big kind of topographical influences. And there, as you're saying, a lot of these areas have this Mediterranean -like microclimate because of the lakes. So it the cold winds. I mean, you grow, the great olive oil comes from Lake Garda, like Cirmione or these beautiful places. And of course, there's also so much history and culture. I was just thinking of Cirmione because Catellus' villa, Roman villa is in Lake Garda. Oh yeah. What are some wine history or general history stories from Lombardy? History stories from Lombardy? Well, Lombardy has a very long history. There's one more region I forgot to mention, which is called San Martino de la Batalla, and this is history. So San Martino de la Batalla is near Lake Garda, and it's around the lake of the area of Lugana, but it's a tower, just the tower of Saint Martin. And it's the location of a horrible battle that went on in the 1800s, and there's a story behind this story. So there's a battle that went on in the 1800s between the troops that were loyal to Vittorio Manuele, who was the Italian king. This is before Italian unification, Italy was unified in 1861\. So it was like Vittorio Manuele was from the Duchy of Savoy, so from Piedmont. And his forces were battling the Austrians, right? And the battle was called the Battle of Solferino, which is a town near the Samartin de la Batalla. And what happened was both sides met around this tower, but they didn't know that the other side was there and they went to sleep. And in the morning when they woke up, they woke up in the middle of, you know, a neighboring conquering enemy right nearby. So they hadn't really prepared the battle as those battles at the time were prepared. So there was just bloodshed everywhere. And there was a man who walked through this devastation. He happened to be Swiss, and he was a doctor, and he walked through this devastation. And his name was Henri Dunant. And he walked through this devastation, and he thought, I never want to see anything that looks like this again. And he came up with the idea that with a white flag, he could get the wounded away. And Henri Dunant is the founder of the Red Cross, and he founded the Red Cross and the Geneva Principles because of the Battle of Sofrigno, which took place around the tower of San Martino, which is San Martino della Battaglia. It's a DOC, it's a very small DOC, and they make wines, ready for this? They make wines from the Tokai grape, which as we know, you're not allowed to call Tokai in Italy because it's a region in Hungary. So the grape itself is the same grape that you'll find in Friuli, which they call Friulano. In San Martino della Battaglia, it's called Tuki. Oh, I love this. T -U -K -I, Tuki. So it's very small area. Maybe they're like 19 hectares. I mean, even smaller, I think, than Moscato di Scanzo. So a friend of mine happens to make wine here. He used to be the president of the Lugana region, a consortium. But he also makes wines in San Martino de la Battaglia. And actually, on his land, he has a wine dedicated to Henri Dunon. And I believe part of the battle of Soferino took place on his land. So this is how I learned this amazing story. And he has this huge plaque to the Red Cross in his winery. So that's a story. Catellus, going back many, many centuries, Catellus's villa is a Roman villa in the middle of Cermione. And then of course we have the castle in the Castellus Forzesco. Smack in the middle of Milan is a huge fortress castle to the famous family. So, you know, in every region in Italy, in every main town, there was generally one family that was like the warring family that ran everything. So in Milan, it was the Sforza, I think, and the Viscontis. But I believe in Mantova, it's the Gonzaga family, because I'm thinking of Palazzo del Teio, which is a really famous palazzo. And of course, the Leonardo's has many works of art that are whether it's the Last Supper and Santa Mero de la Grazia, which we mentioned, or one of his pietà, is in the museum in the Castellas Forcesco. It's called the Rondonini Pietà, and it's one of the last ones of his pietà. And of course, we cannot not mention the Duomo of Milan, which is just amazing and huge, and topped by a statue, which is called La Madonina. So Milan is a city that is very dedicated to the Virgin Mary, La Madonna, right? La Madonina. And she's gold, and she's the symbol of the city. I have climbed to the roof of that Duomo. It's beautiful. And my Italian conversation partner lives in Milan. So when I'm in Italy for Venetale, which is a giant wine fair that takes place in Verona in the spring, I always try to stop in Milan and see my friend Teri. She took me in my first visit to climb to the top of the Duomo. And it is, it is just stunning. It's huge. It's covered with all these beautiful carvings. And of course, there's another famous Duomo in Italy. And I was saying the Duomo and my husband was saying, oh, no, you know, that's not the tallest Duomo. And then so we looked it up. It's, it's slightly, slightly less tall than Florence, but it's gigantic. Yeah, it is gigantic. To me, I also lived in Florence. So those are kind of my two cities, Milan and Florence. And I just feel very differently. Like Santamaria de Fiori is the name of the Florentine cathedral. And it's just a totally different, like Florence is a painted city. Like the churches are striped, right? Which is so amazing. They're striped green and white, red and white. I mean, just beautiful, exciting color. Whereas Milan, it's like the Duomo is just white. It's striking. It looks like a white wedding cake. It's so lacy, especially when you're up on the top and all the lattice work up there. It's also Milan is a very Catholic city and the symbol of Milan is kind of a white flag with a cross and a red cross in the middle of it. I mean, not that all of it is in a very Catholic country, but Milan in particular, you just kind of associate it with that Duomo. And their bishop is very famous in terms of history and power within Italy. I'm trying to think of other kind of historical notes about Milan. I mean Milan is so important in Italian unification and the relationship with the king and the Duchy of Savoy and all of that. It's a very modern city as well. It's probably the city that most foreigners live in. I mean, a lot of foreigners also live in Rome, but usually people who work for international organizations or in some way are in cinema or, you know, a lot of journalism comes out of Milan, for example, certainly financial journalism. And it's just a very big financial city. And you're really close to the rest of Europe from Milan. It's from Milan. But it was taken over by the Habsburgs and the Austrians. So it also looks like an Italian city, but this is sort of when I was living, when I first moved to Milan from Florence, I ran into a British woman I know, and she said to me, "Milan is nice because it's near Italy." And I was like, "What do you mean Milan is nice because it's near Italy? It's in Italy. It's not, you know, near Italy." She was like, "Yeah, but it's something different. It's also got a more international flavor. And I think that is true. And that's even more true today than it was when I lived there because of the expo. So the world expo was in Milan in 2015, and they had just, they cleaned up that city. It's so beautiful and exciting now. And it's very really fun place to visit. It's also where they make apparel. Oh, yes. Well, I mean Milano da Bere, like you, you always like saying, so I was thinking this morning like, "What sayings? What do I know in Milanese?" You know, in Lombardo as an expression, I was thinking of a few things. And then I was thinking of Milano da Bere, which was like Milan in the 80s, was like a big drinking capital, but La Peritivo that we like to do in America now comes from Milan. Like, that's how you eat dinner. You go to an aperitivo, you have one drink. It's not the way we drink in America. You have one drink and the bars all put out amazing charcuterie and cheeses and snacks and olives and, you know, that's, you go, you can walk by, you can go by yourself and you know if you go to X bar, you'll meet 30 people you know. And not you're meeting them like random people at a bar. You mean your friends. Like they travel in these huge groups and they're like, And it's great. I mean, I loved living in Milan for that reason, too. You never felt lonely. You always had people to go out with. Milano da Bere is a big kind of Milano thing from the '80s. Again, every single town in Italy has its own dialect. In Valtellina, I was finding that each neighboring town would have dialects that were mutually unintelligible. So, it's hard to say, "Oh, what's a saying from Lombardia, I will say in my cornucopia of ways to say "let's go" on diamo. It would be Italian, Italian. But I find a lot of versions that sound like "ndum" or "ndum" as far as like, "Hey, let's go." Oh gosh, just so many just beautiful different variations. There's also a lot of different Amaro made in Lombardia, a lot of different kind of alpine, herbal drinks. So, you know, besides wine, there's also a lot of grappa being made as anywhere around Italy, but it's some very interesting grappas. Well, sure. I mean, you know, Ferdinand Brandt comes from Lombardy, but they didn't, they don't drink it the way we drink in the United States. Like, none of that, none of that, none of that goes on there. That's not what it is. You know, it was really like a digestivo. Like, you know, "Stay male." Here's a Braulio. You know, Braulio also comes from Lombardy. So if you drink Braulio, which is an intense, you know, big, you know, amaro, if you drink it, you would drink it because it was like having bicarbonate that would help you really digest your food, like serious, you know, it was not the way it became, Ferdinand Prank became. - As like a shot, like. - Yeah, God, no. No, no, no, no, no. Never drunk like that. I think it's still not. If you do have a big Amaro fan in your family, I would also be both the wine and the Amaro fan can do a little tour when you're doing your trip to Lombardia and ask about the local Amaro because there's a lot of really interesting ones from this region. Yeah, they are. They're a lot. Yeah, I mean, I love Amaro, but in a modest way. Sure. Like I'm not out doing shots of Jägermeister. No, it's part of the whole course. It's part of the whole. Everything has a purpose. It's interesting what takes off here and what doesn't, and why to see something that you would see in one place in a certain way used somewhere else differently. It's very interesting, but great. I mean, I'm sure they couldn't be happier that we're also into Amaro here. I mean, there's so many lists in the city now. It's like 30 Amaro on your list. It's like, really? You have that, you know, "Vecchio Amaro "Vecchio amaro del capo" or things from Calabria or Le Marche, that's amazing. Oh, I think it's wonderful. Yeah, it's fun. That's the panoply of options. It's fun. Yeah. East Different Town has its own language, its own cake, its own salad, its own wine, its own grappa, its own amaro, its own aperitivo, and it's just absolutely endless. I'm really glad to have you to take us through the different Rhine regions. Listen, if people are feeling, "Oh my gosh, I can't keep all of this in my mind," we're definitely going to have you hold up a map, and we're going to make a video for social media so you can say, "Okay, here's Franciacorta. Here's these different places," so you can just get a little bit of an idea. Going back to some of these grapes. Of course, Lombardia has been growing international varieties and doing great things with them for a long time. But speaking of some of the indigenous grapes, can you just introduce us to these grapes as like, this is my friend, Bernarda, and Bernarda tastes like this. What are some of the flavors and personalities of some of your favorite indigenous grape varieties of Lombardia? Bernarda is not a grape from Lombardy. Oh, it's a wine. It's a wine. Yes. Oh, thank you. You're welcome. Okay. So that's a good one because Bonata is a grape that you'll find in Piedmont, but not Lombardy. It's a wine in Lombardy that's made in Otrepo, but it's made from croatina. Yes. So the grape is croatina, and croatina can also be made into a blend with Barbera and other grape varieties, but generally speaking, people are really tending to make 100 % croatina when they make a Bonarda wine. But it's also a grape. In Piedma, not in Lombardy. I'm so glad that we're all here figuring these things out together because it is very complicated. It's also... That's why we're here. That's why we're doing this. It's complicated. Also, in Argentina, they grow bonarda and, you know, they confuse it with barbara. But in Lombardy, there's no bonarda. It's a wine called bonarda, DLC. It's a historic denomination in entre popavés. And the grape is croatina. Mm, thank you. And of course, I know this because I work with them. I mean, you know, I lived in Italy for a very long time. I've been working with Italian wines for years and years and years. This isn't just like, oh, I read a book. Like, that's why I know that because otherwise it's all very confusing. So if people are confused, I get it. But just stick with it and you'll learn a lot. What does crottina taste like? Crottina, the way that it's usually made, is very kind of spicy and really, really dark red fruits like, you know, really dark cherry and a lot of peppery flavors. It's Also, sometimes it can have a little bit of an herbal note. It's a fun grape. It's like, I love bonardo that's made in the frizzante style because there can be a still bonardo or a frizzante style bonardo. That's what I was saying before. So bonardo, the wine is usually grown in the southern area, the southern tip of Lombardy in Oltre Popavese, which is right near Emilia. So it's a style of wine that's kind of friendly, we'll cut through a fatty dish like gnocco frito, which is like a fried, it's like, it's not a taco 'cause it's a different consistency, the dough, but gnocco frito is like a fried little pouch that you put charcuterie into. So like el amor de sua drinking, you know, eating that, which means it's like it's his death. It's his death. The death of you. Not the death of you, like El Amorte. So it's like his death to eat it together with this wine. So like having Yocufrito, which is a thing from Emilia, not from Lombardy, but with the Bonarta wine is fantastic. You could also have it with Lombusco from Mantova or Lombusco from Emilia. And Bonarta is made, let's say, there's this amazing producer that that I was lucky enough to meet this year from Castello Luzano, and she makes wine in Lombardy, and she also makes wine in Emilia Romagna. And in Emilia Romagna, croatina is made in a wine called Gutturno, which you may have heard of. Yes, I believe that was mentioned in an earlier episode, the interview with Mikaylo Mussolino, which was about seven Italy, but she talked about Gaternione. She said something about drinking it out of a bowl, which I had never heard of. It's sort of a funny. From Emilia Romagna. Yeah, like the different kind of drinking vessels. Oh, I don't know. I don't know that. That's interesting. There's always more. There is always more. And I'm so glad that I, that I made a banana mistake because that is just the kind of thing. Yeah, a lot of, I mean, It's a lot. It's really something to get into Italy because it's really, really endless. Yeah, it really is. But that's the front of it. But there's always going to be, I think so, there's always going to be something new. So you know, for anybody who's thinking, "Oh my God, so many different things to memorize." No, no, no, no. That's not, so many things to drink, so many things to enjoy, so many things to discover, so many places to visit. I wanted to ask you about kind of opportunities and challenges. Maybe for Francia Corta it's helping with the education to understand what they're doing and why those wines cost maybe still less than a champagne but more than a prosecco and why someone should find that something to savor. But in the region in general, also considering climate change, sustainability issues, what do you see or what do you hope for in the future of Lombardia, both for the wines and producers themselves and in the international market. - So in Francia Corta, for example, there's a producer I've been friends with for many years whose name is Riccardo Ricci Corabastro. I believe he's still the president of Federdoc, which is the DOC organization in Italy, or maybe he's stepped down. He's probably been the president for 25 years. I saw him in the fall, and I think he said he had stepped down. It had been his 25th He's a producer who is, you know, carbon zero and has been for ages and was one of the first. So there's a lot of attention to sustainability in Francia Corta. I could say the same in the Lugana region, also because they're right near the lake. So, you know, it's very important to keep the lake healthy. In Oltre Popovese, for example, the entire region has kind of agreed upon a sustainability platform, and they're pegging themselves towards the UN Sustainable Development Goals, which are 17 goals by the year 2030 that should be attained. So they're looking as a region of sustainability. So that means both environmental sustainability, economic sustainability, and societal sustainability. So that's from what you're doing in your vineyards to what you're doing in your winery to what kind of energy you're using, what are you doing with your waste, to what kind of manure are you using, are you using green manure, are you using tractors to the economic sustainability, meaning can you keep the business going? Can you keep all of your suppliers going? What's happening in your supply chain to societal sustainability, which means are you playing your employees a fair wage? Are you helping improve the local local churches, the local, you know, environment, the local park. So it's kind of a, you know, a 360 look at sustainability rather than just environmental sustainability. And I think generally speaking in Italy, a lot of consortium, I know in Prosecco, they're doing it. People are really focusing on these three pillars of sustainability in America. Sometimes when we talk about sustainability, we leave out the societal part and we put that under social responsibility. And Italy, they keep that under the system ability rubric climate change. What's happening? A lot of people are looking to plant some other varieties that are more climate resistant and what they're really looking to do is go higher. So they want to plant at, you know, elevation and also plant, you know, with a northern facing slope. So elevation and exposition are really key as we go forward. Exposition, meaning the orientation of the grapes to the sun on the side, the orientation of vineyard to the side. If it was cold, maybe you wanted that south slope. You think about having south -facing windows or a south -facing garden plot, more sun, but then as it gets hotter and hotter, maybe you want to keep that cool, so then you move into the other side of the mountain. She can be really interesting because sort of the more favorite grapes being given the best sites, it almost feels like sort of a shake -up. It is. It's a huge shake -up. I keep harping on ultrapogis because I know a lot about it, and it's a new region, and also because they have room. It's a big region, but they have room so producers can plant higher. In Lugana, there's nowhere to go. By the lake, there's no elevation there. What do those wines from Lugana taste like? Oh, Gosh, they taste like spring in a glass. So they're white wines that have a lot of texture because most producers do leaves stirring. So they leave the wine on the dead yeast cells for a while, which adds creamy texture. They have a lot of kind of apple pear, mineral leaf notes. They have great, it has great acidity. And like many Italian white wines, they have this bitter finish. This little tiny almond note on the finish. I'm there five styles of Lugana, so I'm talking about basic Lugana. They also make a late harvest, which is great and has all those caramel -y honey notes to it. There are a few in far between. There's also a sparkling Lugana. I wish they sold that in the United States, but just a few producers make it and it's not that widely. I'm not sure if I've had one of those. Oh, it's great. Yeah, It's great. It's really lovely. Well, Lugana will be back soon, so maybe you'll have the occasion to taste that. There is something for everybody, absolutely everybody. If you like a sweet wine, if you like sparkling wine, if you like a red wine, if you like a white wine, if you like a more maritime wine, if you like a more alpine wine, you can find them all in Lombardia, we'll put you in front of a map and have you show us where some of these little zones are and big zones are and where people can plan their vacation and be like, okay, we're gonna spend some time on the lake and then we're gonna visit some vineyards. What is a good time of year to visit, do you think? - You know, spring, early fall. This summer, it depends what you're doing, you know? - Well, you've got the lake, right? If you wanna do water sports, if you wanna do winter sports, okay, you can go anytime you want, just depends on what you're into. - Yeah, it depends what you're into. 'Cause the lake, there's a lot of sailing on the lake, there's a lot of winter sports on the lake, there are no sharks in the lake, or anything. I don't think there's any Loch Ness person or animal on the lake. I've never heard about any kind of mystery in any of those lakes. So Lake Garda is a very blue green lake, and you can, I can see your little toesies when you go swimming there. Whereas the other two lakes, Majore and Como have more like the gray, greenish gray water, which I am a little afraid of lake swimming, unless I can see my feet. Oh, I love swimming in a lake. You do. I swim in a muddy old reservoir in the middle of Nebraska growing up. And so, you know, for me, that is summer. Did you see Friday the 13th? No. Never? I don't know if I have. I think I skipped that one. Is there a lake scene? Is it going to Everyone likes swimming for me? Should I keep that in mind? Okay, no comment, no comment. Okay, no spoilers. All right, yes. - Okay. - Yeah, okay. No, but if you like a nice clear blue light. - Light garter. - You've got one of those. Susanna, I'm so grateful to have you here helping us just envision all of these things, thinking of my life as a lifelong wine student. I mean, it's just invaluable. It's really hard to get your teeth into a region this diverse just from looking at a map. So thank you. Oh, thank you. And Susanna, besides your Vigneto podcast and your Avinari blog, could you let us know about your website, your Instagram, and some of the services that you do for people? Sure. Winemakers and drinkers. Sure. So my website is vignetocommunications .com, where I generally do lots of events for wine regions or for brands. I work with, you know, press and trade. I would say I'm more trade focused than consumer focused, although I do sometimes do wine dinners or wine start tastings. But generally speaking, I'm talking to the trade. So that's under vignette of communications. Then I have another website, susanagold .com, which is where I have more of my writing and being a brand ambassador and those kind of things or events that I'm hosting. And on Instagram, I'm vigneto coms with an S on Twitter, which I am still on. I'm vigneto com without the S. Yeah. And then I have Avinarade, I have my podcast, and in my spare time, I'm, you know, doing a few other things like raising my kid. And drinking wine. Oh, and I make wine at home. Oh, yes. - Yes, and I make wine at home with my kid, that's what I was thinking about. He stamped, sometimes he will tread my grapes or trod my grapes for me. - What kind of wine are you making? - So this year, so this is my, well, I started in 2006, so theoretically this would be a lot of vintages later, but I don't make wine every year. I didn't make wine during the pandemic. So I make wine in a garage in New Jersey where my family has a house, and I buy grapes from a location in New Jersey, which is like right out of central casting, and the grapes come from Lodi, California, and this year I'm making petit zirá, and I made vermentino and chardonnay. And so I've bottled the vermentino and chardonnay, and the petit zirá is sitting in a tiny little barrel, so it's going to taste like a vino da fallegname, which means like a carpenter's wine in Italian, because the little barrel is going to be so oaky, but hopefully the petit syrup will mellow in time and I still have to bottle that. So yeah, I started, this is maybe my seventh vintage. Oh, I definitely need to talk to you more about that. We've got to have you back on the show. Susanna, thank you so much. Great times in Lombardia, beautiful memories, so much more still to discover. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening and to all of our listeners, wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Thank you. Follow Motodiberi on YouTube, Instagram and TikTok for even more unique and encouraging drinks and language content. If you would love for the show to continue and grow, support Motodiberi on Patreon and unlock bonus episodes. Find out more at motodberry .com, where you can also sign up for my newsletter. Music for the podcast was composed by Ercilia Prosperi and performed by the band O. You can purchase their recordings at oumusic .bandcamp .com. (singing in foreign language) Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) Video version by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) [ A Rye Revolution ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e7-avery-robinson-rye-revolution/) [ Food and Wine Pairing ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e5-food-and-wine-pairing-with-joyce-lin/) ### ▷S2E5 Sublime Memories: Food and Wine Pairing with Joyce Lin URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e5-food-and-wine-pairing-with-joyce-lin/ Last updated: 2026-08-24T10:35:34.000Z A conversation with Joyce Lin, sommelier, artist and food and wine pairing specialist. Joyce grew up in Taiwan and resides in New York City. She is a creative educator on social media, YouTube and her website, sipwithjoyce.com. Whether you prefer wine, cocktails, beer or bubble tea, there's something for everyone in this episode. Joyce and Rose Thomas discuss pairing creativity with a wine career and how encountering new cultures increases wine pairing skill. Which Italian wines go with Sichuan hot pot, Taiwanese fried chicken, stewed pork with garlic and five spice powder, or whole steamed fish with scallions, ginger and red chili pepper? You're going want to take notes--and you may want to write them on your shopping list! Joyce's website: [https://www.sipwithjoyce.com/](https://www.sipwithjoyce.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Sip with Joyce [on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNRmDf9t1vLEzZt%5FobYnocA?ref=mododibere.com) Joyce on [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/joyce%5Ffoodnwine/?ref=mododibere.com) View Transcript Expand for auto-generated transcript. (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) And I was like wow this is surprising and bold how can a lamp stew pair with a white wine a wine ryoha and I'm kind I'm very skeptical about that pairing and when I have my first bite and sip with the wine oh my god it's so good and they just matched with each other. And I was like, okay, this is a fabulous, fantastic example of red meat compared with a white swine. - Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. I have someone very special for today's interview, Joyce Lin of sipwithjoyce .com. Joyce is a certified sommelier and a food and wine pairing specialist. She was born and raised in Taiwan and now works as a content creator in New York City. Joyce makes wonderful educational videos about food and wine pairing, writes articles and shares recipes, all super high quality content that takes us around the world, but definitely also introduces us to some amazing facts about culture from Taiwan and features translations and subtitles in Mandarin. I'm so excited to continue learning from Joyce today since food and wine pairing is one of my favorite things to talk about. Joyce, welcome. Yay, thank you so much, Rose. Thank you so much for having me, you know, spending time talking to me and I really, really appreciate it and being honored to be on your podcast. I would love to hear more about where you grew up in Taiwan. Is there a local drink that you can share? It doesn't necessarily have to be wine or alcohol. Right. Yes, a local drink, definitely. I think everybody knows at this moment like bubble tea is actually invented in Taiwan and it has become so popular in all over the world especially in New York that there's tons of like bubble shop in the city so this drink is invented in early 1980s and it was there is a debate like who invented the string first but this it's black milk tea and then they will add the bubbles which is made by trapioca trapioca balls and then they'll add it in the black milk tea to add like texture to it. And it just all of a sudden it becomes so popular in Taiwan or over Taiwan and businessmen they're trying to you know you know there is a lot of like Chinese immigrants who live abroad like in America or in you know Japan or you know other place in the world so there is always people who live different country, but they miss the bubble tea. So they bring bubble tea to the place they live in. So I think that is a very, very special local drink that I am super proud of. And people know about it all over the place. - Oh, my kid loves bubble tea. Yes, we even got some supplies to make it at home. I think we got some taro powder and we got the tapioca and everything. It was kind of hard to make it at home. We had trouble getting the tapioca right. The texture is super important. Yeah, it has to be chewy, but it can't be like too soft. Otherwise, you lost that chewiness to it. Yeah. Is there a proverb saying or a piece of slang that you can share from where you grew up? I actually grew up in a small fishing town in southern part of Taiwan and we are very known for our seafood so I grew up eating a lot of fresh seafood and you know moving to New York I found it's really really hard to find like fresh fresh seafood or even go into like a local fish market so I think that is one of the things I missed a lot about Taiwan. Yeah, so a local slang. I actually did a little bit research on that. There's two slang that is related to drink. So the first one is called "Hotala". So it's a Taiwanese dialect and it's actually from Fujian province in China because a lot of people, the immigrants from Fujian back in the 1600s. So they carry the language here and a lot of people just, you know, speaking the language. So hodala means button up. Don't leave any drinks, you know, in your glass. Yeah, just button up. Yeah, encouraging people to you know to drink up. Yeah, so that's one of the Like saying that we use You know during family gatherings or you know friends hang out and then just you know doing some cheerful things Hey, come on, just drink up. Yeah, so hold Tala Yep, and then there is another saying and says "ho jiu dim ang de" it is also a Taiwanese dialogue and it means the best of the wine is always sitting at the very bottom of the jar and it also means that whether it's a show, a book, a movie, the best part is always left to be revealed at the And yeah, so that's like two saying that related to one that I would love to share with you all. I love those. Awesome. Those are great. Thank you so much. I have to say about the seafood. So I grew up in Nebraska, which is right in the center of the United States. And I did not see the ocean until I was 16\. My cousin, she was, and she's the professor in in Nebraska University. And she moved there a couple years ago. - Yeah, that's where I went to school. - Yeah, I haven't had a chance to visit yet, but I would love to. - Oh, well, it's wonderful. It's a beautiful state, but the ocean is very far away. There was once an inland sea there, which is what created the landscape feature in Western Nebraska called the Sandhills, where I'm from, it was very beautiful, but that's far way in time and space, the ocean. So I actually have a story that I like to tell because I've lived in New York now for 11 years. I thought the seafood here was great, you know, so I'll have to go to Taiwan and so I can get to the next level. But the first time I visited people like in Long Island, you know, like in the Hamptons, I opened up a drawer and I was completely mystified at all these objects in this drawer and I said, "Why do you have so many nutcrackers?" But it was the things to crack the crab. That's right. I just did not understand. We had one of those and we used it for walnuts at Christmas time. So anyway, the seafood sounds great. Tell me about growing up in a fishing town in Taiwan. What was the name of the place? The name of the place is called Donggang and it's funny that I don't grow up in a family that we we fish but my grandpa he is a farmer my mom that she grew up in a big family so they will go to you know the farm to help and doing a little bit you know helping to the family So, the most thing I remember is my mom, she doesn't eat beef at all because my grandpa, he had a few cows to help him to farm the land. So they had a, you know, unspoken things that say, "Okay, we respect the animals who work for us so they just didn't eat beef but they but my mom didn't require me or my father to not to eat beef so that's one of one of things that make me think about okay okay there's like different culture like eating different diet stuff that we grew up with. Growing up in a fishing town I think we have abundant seafood to shop around and I never think about or appreciate it until I move you know here or when I like go to other town to college so I think right now I really appreciate that you know living in a growing up or living in a fishing town it's a privilege to me and I do miss that part yeah so every time when I go back to Taiwan I you know I'll try to have as much as seafood as possible because we had so many you know different varieties and there's tons of like good local restaurants they cook fantastic food so yeah I think that's the most you know, cherished memories that I had, yeah. - So we're gonna definitely talk some more about Taiwanese cuisine in general, in a bit when we talk about food and wine pairing, but is there anything else that you wish people in general in the world knew more about Taiwan? - It's a big question. I feel like, you know, Taiwan is a Chinese country, a little island, and we are situated in between China, Japan, and Philippines. So I don't know, like some, I feel like I'm coming from a small country and then being able to, you know, study abroad and live in New York in a, you know, international Capital City really opens up my mind and I really wanted to share my culture and let people know about Taiwan, especially the cuisine and the culture with people around the world and just let them know that we are beautiful people and We love to share and we are very friendly, good -hearted and just wanted to let people know that Taiwan is a beautiful country and we have beautiful landscapes and each province or county has specialties and I wish people can come to visit Taiwan and get to know a little bit about this country. - Beautiful. So Joyce, your videos on your website have this great formula. You start by introducing the dish, which is often, but not always, a dish from Taiwan, including a lot of research into the dish's history. Then you introduce a guest who demonstrates the dish with a cooking video, and you give this really well done, I have to say, breakdown about what wines would pair with the dish based on a number of different factors. This project is so cool. I discovered it during the COVID lockdown when you were featuring some friends who live far away showing videos of them cooking at home. I was really moved. I found it so inspiring then and I still do now. And I'm curious how did you come up with this idea to make this project? Okay. So it's actually, I have to thank Anna Christina. She invited me to join Summation during like before the like at the very beginning of COVID she asked me if I can make a video talking about like basic food and wine pairing maybe pairing a dish with from Taiwan and creating this video and being able to showcase on their platform on IG And I was like, okay, sure, I will love to because it would be fun to do it, but it took me three months to get the video done. And when the video is done, I ask Anna, do you still want it to, you know, to put it on the IG account? And she said, yes, - Of course, we'd love to. So yeah, that's my sort of like my debut video. - Anna Christina from? - Anna Christina Cabrales. - From, and what's her Instagram account? - She work at, Why Enthusiast right now. - Oh, great. - Yeah, great. - And the Instagram account is called Summation Life. - Summation Life. Okay, great. Thank you for explaining that. So what Um, so yeah, so that's, that is my very, um, first video. And, um, at that time I didn't, I didn't have the ideas, um, like I should continue to do it, but like the idea came to me, okay, maybe I can do a video, like, introduce, um, you know, cuisines from Taiwan or, you know, from Asia, and then I can do full -in -one pairing with that specific dish. So I started to ask around my friend if they are willing to do this video with me and they are like super supportive. And so that's how I started this project. And currently I have 13 videos on my YouTube channel and it's fun to do it and I find it very like the chemistry between my guests and myself and also like we work together to get this project done and at the end the reward seeing the video up on YouTube it's very you know satisfying satisfying. And I have to say we put a lot of efforts and time doing it, like filming, editing, and then think about all the why we're pairing, and then also writing the narrative, the script. It took a lot of time, but I think it's very rewarding. And I really appreciate my guests that they trust me and wanted to like do this project with me. Yeah. Yeah, it's a very beautiful website and the videos are so impressive. Having started a multimedia wine project myself recently, I can definitely see the dedication and attention to quality that goes into the project. You have also all these articles as well. One thing I have to say just as an aside is I find it, people have a hard time photographing wine in a way that's not completely boring. Right. You know, this is the shot of the bottle. It's, it's, even as a person in the wine industry, as excited as I might be about those bottles, it's always kind of the same picture. And so you, when you, on your social, or I think in some places as your website, you do these wine pairing photographs where you you lay the glass on its side on the on the table with just a little bit which is great because that's actually if you're evaluating a wine especially during blind tasting you will look you'll hold the glass that way over a white tablecloth or paper to get a sense of the color and then you have the food and like some flowers and I just have never seen anyone do wine graphs as nice as those. I feel like you must have some kind of art background. I do. I study art since I was very little. And I went to art school all the way from elementary school to college. So I guess that artsy part of me must coming from that part. I'm very happy that I find a way to incorporate the art and wine together and because you know working in the wine at this moment is my second career. So I kind of feel like oh I don't want the go of the art because it's in me and I'm very happy that I find a way to cooperate this two together because I found wine It's my passion, and I'm really, really happy that I find it in my mid -30s. And I kind of regret that, "Oh, come on, how can I not find this passion a little bit earlier?" Yeah, because I feel like I came into the wine industry very, very late if compared to other people. Now I'm trying to take time and then take it easy and absorb what I have learned in the past eight years and then just try to live a little bit because I feel like I put a lot of pressure on myself at this moment, so yeah. But I'm really happy. You appreciate the way I compose, the layout or how the way I took the photograph, I really appreciate that you like that style. Thank you so much. - Yes, no, I love it. And I would say too that I can relate as a musician and a writer coming into wine. I mean, I'm still doing everything, but you know, there's this creativity there that you know, you're just not happy if you can't use it. It's just just sitting there fermenting in not a good way. Right. So, in fact, I didn't expect to talk about music quite so much in the Motor D. Berry project, but then I immediately began meeting musicians who sing in dialect. So actually several of the first interviews that I've done are with these people. And so it's actually, you know, everything's connected. That's what I love about wine. There's so many different pieces of culture that connect to it. Exactly. Yeah, I do, I do agree. I think wine, it just brings people together and not necessarily have to be food and wine. It can be food and music or food and book, wine and book, wine and movie or in any sort of form. Yes. I mean, there's just so many things connected to learn about that I never knew I was going to get to learn about, that I get to learn about through wine, you know, certainly including languages clearly, but also geology, chemistry, you know, ancient historical borders. It's just wonderful. I think in that too, you are far from alone from people who are coming to wine as a second career. I think many people, you know, are kind of working hard as a young and just drinking whatever, whatever cheap drink is around. And then, you know, maybe you get a little established, a little more established in your life and you start tasting some bottles and you think, oh my goodness, what is this? And a lot of people do make a jump at that point. I do also teach wine with the Sommelier Society of America. And there are many people who are changing careers in this field. So, you know, you're fine, more than fine, more than fine. - Good to know. - Yeah, great. So, food and wine pairing, what's the first thing that we should know? - Wow, the first thing we should know is, I think, don't overthink. Yeah, 'cause I mean, for me, I feel like food and wine is to elevate or to highlight the entire dining experience so I mean just don't overstress it when you do it at home because you know at the end of the day if it doesn't work it doesn't work but you are still enjoying that bottle of wine right yeah so I mean there are still a few like principles that you can follow and they're super easy like seafood goes with white that people know and like red meat goes with reds but there's always exceptions and these exceptions are you know the kind of proteins of the dish or the sauce you're using, the spices you're using in the dish, the way of cooking like if you are grilling, steamed or fried or stir -fry or stew, so that all make those cooking methods you will always have to think about because they will change the flavor of the dish or the protein you cook. And also there's another one, regional food always goes with regional wine. What grows together always goes together. So yeah like sanser with goat cheese And like Austrian Gunner with schnitzel and also like beef bogeynyong with pinot noir that these are like perfect example of, you know, original food go with original wine. And there's another pairing that I would like to cover. There is two kinds of pairing, congruent pairing or contrasting pairing. So congruence pairing as the food and wine share the same weight in terms of aromas, flavors, body, sweetness, and also acidity. So think about the balance scale. If we want to put the hearty beef stew on one side of the skill, what would you choose to, you know, to what kind of wine would you choose to put on that skill in terms of the weights? For me, I would suggest a red wine, of course, and with full body, with intense aromas and flavors, maybe a little bit tannin and high acidic to balance the beef stew. - You know what comes to mind? - Yeah. - A cannelli di sardine, yeah. - Mm. - That's the Italian wine that is coming to my mind, yeah. And I think a good Chianti Classico riserva would do as well. Yeah, or– - Maybe with some oak aging. - Yeah, exactly. Or primitivo. - Mm, primitivo is great. - Primitivo is good too. Yeah. And the other one is contrasting pairing. So that is the opposite way. So the food and wine, the weights, body, flavor, they are opposite to each other. So for, for instance, samsir and goat cheese is a great contrasting pairing because samsir is very bright, crisp, acidity has very great acidity to it and the body is kind of lean. It's not super you know heavy or mouth feel but goat cheese on the other way it's creamy. It has like milky notes to it and when you bite into it it's like coating in your mouth. So At this time, if you have a glass of sans serre, then the acidity, the fruit notes will wash down all the the criminals in your mouth. So, you know, it appears a contrasting in your mouth. Yeah. So I think this two, um, why food and wine pairing guideline would, you know, um, give our audience a, you know, a very, very basic kind of, you know, doing Fudouan pairing. - I'm thinking as you're talking about how sometimes both of those considerations can be involved in the same wine pairing. I was in Chinatown having some lightly battered, fried seafood, and the in the batter was just this light note of sweetness. And it was very light and crackly and crispy. Oh, I'm getting hungry. - Me Um, but I drank it with, with the German Spot Lazy Riesling. So this is a Riesling with a little bit of sweetness to it. But the wonderful thing about Riesling is it has always this balancing acidity. So it's this beautiful, huge acidity so that even when it does have this natural sweetness, it's never cloying, it never overwhelms because the acidity always comes around at the end and cleans your mouth. We do talk a lot about balancing fat with acid. And so I was seeing that as a contrast, but I was also seeing the sweetness in the wine and this very light sweetness in the batter that I had not noticed until I paired it with the wine kind of coming out and talking to each other. So do you think of it as having both factors sometimes in the same wine and food? - Yeah, exactly. I totally agree with you because like in Chinese cooking, no matter it's the cuisine from China or from Taiwan or even from Japan or Korea, when we cook we not always but usually it's very often we add a little bit sugar in the dish or in the sauce or you know in the Like in in the progress of making the dish So I think wine with a little bit sugar and it always brings out the sweetness of the dish So it's it's very interesting. Yeah, it's just I am not too sure how that chemistry work Maybe the the molecules or the aromas of flavor compound compound in the wine or in the dish, they just somehow they just click and matched. Yeah. So I think, you know, if you wanted to pair wine with like Chinese cuisine, always looking for wine with a little bit of sweetness, that would be a great, you know, guidance. And there are so many options for this besides Riesling too. I get really, I figure that the people who are really into Asian cuisine must get really bored when Riesling is always the answer, as perfect as it can be. Right. Chai money's cuisine in particular, I'm not too familiar with it. I've learned maybe the most I have from watching Euro videos. But here's the thing about what I just said about Asian food, Riesling, I feel like that is the entire education that people get about food and wine pairing about this huge part of the world, I feel a bit behind because most of the food and wine pairing educational materials that I have had access to are very Western or Eurocentric in the cuisines that they cover. And so that's one of the things that also really excites me about your project. I wanted to take a moment now to give a shout out to MotoDBerry's newest Patreon supporter. Jean is a new supporter of MotoDBerry on Patreon, but an old friend we've known each other for over 10 years when she and her husband and I were all stranded at the same airport in Denver during a major blizzard. We ended up in the same taxi in the snow and have remained friends. Jean, I haven't heard lately what adventures you've been on, but I hope they're all great. And I wanna say thank you so much for becoming a supporter and a sustainer of the show. If you're interested in joining Jean and becoming a Patreon supporter, you can go to patreon .com /mododibare and get access to bonus content and also make sure that the show is able to continue. If you would like a free quick way to help MotoDBerry, you can also go to Apple Podcasts, leave a five -star review and write what you like about the show. It really helps increase visibility and I appreciate it. In Chinese cuisine or in Taiwanese cuisine, we use lots of condiment and soy sauce. We probably use it in every dish. So soy sauce is made with black beans, they are fermented, so they will also have those like fermented flavor, a little bit like easty, but of course they are salty. So like whenever I wanted to pair a dish that it's cooked with soy sauce that say stew pork dish that I'll look for a wine has the same element to it like it's savory or it has a little bit Easty note and also when it has aged for a little bit longer it will have some like like oak notes or you know some earthy notes to it umami flavor. I'll try to look for why has those components in it and that's how I connect the two together and you mentioned about the sweetness too. So for the sweetness we know most of the wine are dry and then also they're a sweet wine or like of dry style but a lot of wine they have good fruitiness. We often associate with like ripe fruit notes. I think those ripe fruit notes can associate with the dishes has a little bit of sweetness to it because it will bring out or they will enhance the flavor, the sweetness in the dish. Yeah, so that's how I try to, you know, pick up each element in the dish, as well as in the wine, and find if there's something similar to it. And then I'll just, okay, let's try if those two can work together, or if they match with each other. - What about the spicy, spicy notes? what about when you're using different spicy flavors beyond the basic, okay, maybe a little bit of sweetness helps to calm the palate down after this attack? Yeah, I'll give an example of pairing a spicy hot pot. I think lots of Asian people love spicy hot pot and it's right now, it's like going crazy in New York, especially in flushing. There are tons of like spicy Sichuan restaurant and spicy hot pot place coming out. I think sweetness, having some sweetness in the wine definitely can calm the spiciness in the hot pot. And also it will like provide a coating like in your mouth Just just like milk when like when people say If you're having like spicy food, you can you can drink like a yogurt drink or drink milk It will provide a you know protection in your stomach and I think Why the sweetness in wine, you know provide similar like factors in in your mouth and then it would be able to you know keep you away from your your tongue feeling numbness or you know less than the reduce the pain but I feel like when when I had spicy hot pot because the flavor is so intense some people would suggest oh you should drink maybe have some Beaujolais like light body red to complement with spicy hot pot, but I actually don't agree with that because I feel like if you're drinking like very light Pinot Noir or Skiava or even Beaujolais, it just doesn't have enough body to support that dish. - And the intensity of the flavors could overwhelm the wine. - The wine. - The delicate flavors in the wine. - Yeah, yeah. So I would definitely look for something that has a little bit more body, maybe a little bit more fruitier. I think California's Envendo would be a great, great choice. And a Malbec would be lovely too. Just look or wine that has intense aromas and flavors, but not too tannic and not like in super high alcohol content. Oh, Malo would be great. California Malo would be great. - What about something like a lamb brusco, which should be like deep sparkling red, lots of kind of blueberry, cuckold berry flavors, sometimes dry, but still fruity, sometimes with a little sweetness. I'm wondering though about the, you know, with Szechuan cuisine and all those kind of intense little things going off in your mouth. I wonder if the bubbles would be too much or if it would be kind of fun. Well, personally, I would avoid any drinks has bubble in it because when you have Sichuan cuisine, they use a lot of Sichuan peppercorn. And those peppercorn will make your tongue numb and and it's spicy too so when you when you are drinking like sparkling wine the bubbles will make you you'll make your tongue like even more stimulated too much yeah yeah or you won't be able to be able to appreciate the texture of the bubble because there's already so much going on that's right yeah it's it's - Yeah, I think personally I feel like, okay, my tongue is already in pain and I don't want to have another components to stimulate. Stimulate it. So personally I would avoid any sparkling. - Maybe a narrow davala, like just a really big fruity narrow davala with a hot pot. - Right. - Let's talk about bubbles though and what would be good in Chinese cuisine with bubbles. One of the most classic bubbles pairings is with fried food. - I think there is a very, very famous street food in Taiwan is fried chicken, but the size is like a popcorn bite size fried chicken. And I think that would go perfectly with sparkling wine. - What is it called? Yeah, that's that's how we we call it in in Mandarin Now, what about tannins? Where can you use tannin in Taiwan cuisine and where might you want to avoid it? Okay? Tannin, I think tannin is a great agent to come by protein Right and so if you're like if we're having steak, we always want it to you know, we can choose why with some tenant who like Burdo or a big cab, because the tenant could, um, you know, could come by the protein of the steak and as well as the high acidity and tenant could cut the fat, um, you know, with the, the protein with a steak. So I think tannin is actually a good friend, not necessary a, you know, a, a, like intimidating items that we think, oh, we want to avoid tannin to pair with, with food. I think a good tannic red could go very well with stewed pork in Taiwanese cuisine or Yeah, mostly stewed meat, and then you cooked with soy sauce, with five spice powder, with some garlic in it, and yeah, so I think tannin could, it would definitely enhance and help to cut down all the fat in it, and also, you know, serve as a palate cleanser, and then pair you for the next bite. - So when you do pair Tannen with Spice, what happens? - Oh, Tannen and Spice. It's unpleasant. - Maybe we should back up a little bit for people who are really kind of just getting started in their wine journey. What is Tannen? What is that sensation like? - Tannen, I think I can find a very similar example as like you drinking tea. So if you drink enough tea or you have that black tea sitting there for you know for couple hours and you have a sip and you can feel like the grippiness or yeah the grippiness on your teeth on the surface of your teeth or like if you have lots of spinach And when you have enough, then you will feel like, "Oh, there's like a grippiness on my teeth." And they're, yeah. It kind of dries out your mouth like almost sometimes people experience it in different parts of their palate depending on who you are, but it can be this kind of like scraping sensation that dries out your mouth as opposed to acid, which makes you salivate. But sometimes in the vocabulary of people, you know, just kind of getting started to whine. People will say the word sour, but they mean something's happening in my mouth and sometimes they mean acid and sometimes they mean tannin. Because I don't think people have the word for tannin. I mean, the word is actually astringent. And that's just not something we talk about much in English. We don't use that word too often. So, you know, so tannin equals astringent and acid equals sour. - Yeah, that's a good way to put it. And, you know, for people who are just very new to wine, a good way to understand, yeah. - So another tannic wine, I'm thinking of, I have another podcast interview with Roberto Di Filippo of the Plani Arche winery in Umbria. So one of the most tannic wines ever, and certainly also in Italy is a sograntino. So that can be, I'm thinking of a sograntino with the, with the, with the pork. Now what about, we haven't talked much about white wine and I feel like we should come back to, to seafood. Is that the right direction for Taiwanese cuisine and white wines? Yeah. Because, you know, Taiwan is an island and surrounded by oceans. So we, we do have a lot of seaports and also we have, you know, abundant seafood. So yes, white wine, it's, it's a great, great, you know, options to, to pair with seafood. But it's all depends on like how you cook it. There is a very famous dish, like we, we steam the whole fish, but we just use like very simple ingredients like ginger and scallion and maybe just a few slices of red chili pepper and then that's it and then you you drizzle a little bit rice wine and then you put in a steamer steam about 10 minutes and that's a super super delicious steam fish and for that fish the flavor is very very delicate and so you wanted to choose a white wine that wouldn't overpower the delicate of the fish but at the same time like the broth coming out from the fish it has so it has some ginger and scallion the flavor in it so you might be able to want to think about how what it's what are those flavors that I can found in wine and then trying to pick a wine, be able to pair it with that fish. So what I have in mind is I think verticchio is a great, great option. Vermantino would work too and chablis would be a great option too, yeah, Or fiano, fiano is a great, you know, option, a great choice too. What about a Malvasia? Oh, yes. I find a lot of, when I think of a, I was searching my mind for ginger, ginger flavors in a wine and thinking of something that has a lot of interesting, aromatic to it would be a Malvasia, which has grown in many places and certainly all over, all over Italy and can be made with varying amounts of texture that's right to the body. Yeah. No, I love that idea. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I love Mavazia. I can drink Mavazia all day long. There's just so much there. There's so much there. Exactly. Oh, this is so it's so exciting. Let's talk about some of these exceptions. People know these classic basic rules of of white wine with chicken and red wine with steak. What about when you want to break the rules? - I remember before pandemic, we went to Vienna just for fun and we went to a fine dining restaurant. It's the 19th of the best restaurants in the world. Yeah, so We ordered the food and wine pairing set and there is a wine dish that it's a lambe stew but in a clear broth and then I was like okay I'm very curious about you know what wine they will bring to pair with the dish and they bring out a I believe is maybe 2004, a white Rioja, Tondonia Rioja. And I was like, wow, this is surprising and bold. How can a lamp stew pair with a white wine, a white Rioja? And I'm kind of, I'm very skeptical about that pairing. And when I have my first bite and sip with the wine, "Oh my god, it's so good." And they just matched with each other. And I was like, okay, this is a fabulous, fantastic example of red meat compared with a white swine. Yeah, I can never forget about that sensation and had that evening and just like, it's amazing. - Those moments are really so magical. If I start thinking about some memories like that, they're still just very much with me. They really make an impression. Why do people care about this so much? I think it's because there's these moments where it can be really sublime. One of the first days that I was introduced to pairing was actually at a re -tour with beer and it was an Indian dish. It was chicken vindaloo with an IPA. And seeing how these two pieces become something else when you add them to something more. So my background actually, before I got into wine, was in cocktails. And I was making a lime cordial and I had put in some kaffir lime leaves and some jalapeno, and some lime juice, and some lime peel, and I think, oh, and some agave syrup. I think I was adapting a recipe from the employee's only cookbook, which is a bar in New York City, that I got when I was still bartending in the Midwest and learning everything from books. The cocktail revolution was still just there and I came to New York and it was, I was a kid in a candy store when it came to cocktails and so I developed this spicy lime cordial and what I wanted to make was a gimlet which you know these drinks change and sometimes you have to accept the evolution. A gimlet now is often you'll see as a gin sour with fresh lime juice and simple syrup but actually the gimlet was made with lime cordial, which, you know, people know roses lime cordial, right? And that was actually the original drink. And it was this, you know, packaged product. I still think it's delicious, to be honest. But, you know, people wanted something a little bit less processed. And so, I think employees only was making their own lime cordial. So when I put in these jalapenos, I tried it with gin, and then I tried it with tequila. And I think, so I made a tequila gimlet. Okay. Oh my gosh, I have to make this recipe again. It was fantastic. And there was this moment, the gin was good. But the tequila, something about the combination brought out the vegetal spicy flavors that were hidden inside of the tequila. And it just like, if you put it on a graph, it just went up, you know, and then the spice, the flavors in the cordial as well changed. So yeah, those magical moments. I remember being on the island of Orkney in Scotland. They had these little sugary sweets. And I think I had also a coffee. And for some reason, I also had a dark beer. And I was drinking all of these things together. And I was sitting there and I was crying because they tasted You know, you know, they're really unforgettable moments, you know, so I think it's something to not be intimidated by, well, none of this is something that should be intimidating. I strongly feel, but the, again, the purpose of all this knowledge is more enjoyment. That's right. Yeah, that's why I fall in love doing "Food and Wine Pairing" because I really, really enjoy the moments that for and why bring to me because it just like when I had those momentum that you encountered a great friend my parents there there's like fireworks in my in my head or you know there is like ocean waves you know in my mouth like oh my god or like you're you're having shirply with oysters, you can almost feel like there's a sea spray, like, you know, sea breeze, you know, blowing from the ocean. And you just, oh, I almost tasted the sea. I study art. So there's always like pictures or images in my head when I have this kind of moment. And now I want to put into words or maybe put everything together, you know, compose as a picture in my head. And those, you know, those ways will help me to, you know, memorize those moments I had in my life. And I think that's amazing. That's why I love "Food and Wine Parry." - Maybe you should make some artwork about those moments. - Yeah, that's a great suggestion. - Yeah, like what would the White Rio hon lamstew image look like? (both laughing) That would be a fun series. - No, I think that's great. Yeah, thank you. I think I'll definitely do that, yeah. And, you know, make it abstract. - That's fantastic, Joyce. Thank you so much. So we spoke about your website, sipwithjoice .com. Are there other places like on social that you want to point people to or your YouTube channel? Yes, I have an Instagram account. It's all related to SIPWIS JOYS and also I have a YouTube account. It's called SIPWIS JOYS. These are my platform to showcase my passions. Feel free to check it out and I constantly update them, you know, there is always ideas coming out of my mind and then, you know, do some like fun and interesting or unexpected foot of my pairing that I wanted to know. And I also want to use this platform to, you know, to let people know that, you know, there are a lot of different kind of cuisine in the world and they actually can pair with why. It doesn't have to be like why can only pair with Western cuisine or cuisine from Europe. Why can can go with you know other different kind of cuisine like Japanese or Korean or Southeast Asia, Malaysian cuisine or you know, cuisine from Taiwan, from China, and you know, China is huge. So they have different kind of, you know, regional cuisine. There's, you know, tons of, a lot to learn. So for me, I think, you know, being open -minded and, you know, ready to try different kind of pairing all together, it actually helps me to learn a different culture, also learn a different language, and learn how the people use different kind of ingredients and then make a delicious dish. So I think that's, like, broaden my mind and also help me to understand, oh, there are lots of different cuisines, wines in the world, and I just can't wait to explore more. - That's so beautiful. Thank you so much, Joyce. - Thank you. - So if we have a listener who is now feeling very hungry and very thirsty after listening to this and maybe someone who's really new to this idea, you know, or who's wanting to get more into it, and they're like, oh gosh, I'm gonna go to the store right now. - Oh God. - You know, where can someone start? What's your best advice to someone who's just getting started with food and wine pairing? - Well, I mean, I would recommend try something classic first and see how you like it or you can get the essence of that food and wine pairing. For example, duck with pinot noir. It's a classic, classic pairing. Why is it classic? Because it has been experienced for so long, so many years. So that's why it becomes a classic pairing. So I would suggest maybe try something classic first and then you can, you know, just go crazy and try something unusual. You might find something new and you like it. Or if you don't like it, then that is okay too, because at the very beginning, if I said before, if you don't like the pairing, that's fine, because you still have a very good bottle to enjoy. It sounds like a great opportunity for a potluck. Everybody brings different food and different bottles of wine, and then you pour a little in your glass and see what you like together. Yeah, I've done that before. And it worked. Oh, I want to do that right now. Let's go to the store. Joyce, thank you so much for talking with me today. It was wonderful. To all of our listeners, thank you. Wherever you go and whatever you drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Follow Motodiberi on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok for even more unique and encouraging drinks and language content. If you would love for the show to continue and grow, support Motodiberi on Patreon and unlock bonus episodes. Find out more at motodiberi .com, where you can also sign up for my newsletter. Music for the podcast was composed by Ursilia Prosperi and performed by the band O. You can purchase their recordings at oumusic .bandcamp .com. (singing in foreign language) El brazo payaso que permanece dejándose llevar Un otro, se engañando, se déjase para ese mismo Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) Video version by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Wines of Lombardia ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e6-the-boot-in-20-lombardia-susannah-gold/) [ Vino Nobile di Montepulciano ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e4-vino-nobile-di-montepulciano-news/) ### ▷S2E3 Citta della città: novità dal Vino Nobile di Montepulciano URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s2e3-vino-nobile-di-montepulciano/ Last updated: 2026-08-26T01:18:07.000Z [Ascolta in inglese / Listen in English](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-en/s2e4/montepulciano-consorzio) Rose Thomas intervista Andrea Rossi, presidente del Consorzio del Vino Nobile di Montepulciano. Silvia Loriga, che lavora anche lei al Consorzio, descrive la città medievale in cui è nata in modo così accattivante che Rose Thomas ha programmato un viaggio per varcare la Porta di Bacco il prima possibile. Grande novità per il Vino Nobile DOCG è il nuovo sistema Pieve, sottozone geografiche che dovrebbero essere introdotte sulle etichette dei migliori vini di Montepulciano a partire dal 2024\. - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)e quindi voi potrete assaggiare il vino nobile di Montepulciano avendo sotto i vostri piedi delle rovine romane, delle rovine trusche che potrete osservare attraverso un pavimento di cristallo e se questa vista non vi basta potrete uscire in una meravigliosa terrazza fresca d 'inverno ma fresca fortunatamente anche dal caldo estivo e godervi una vista mozzafiato sull 'Avaldorcia. Questo è Montepolciano, questo è il nostro vino nobile tanto amato e spero che ci vede da trovare. Andiamo! Andiamo, non è possibile di stare qui! Benvenuti a Moro di Bere Italiano, il podcast sui bevande locali e detti locali, sono la condutricce Rose Thomas Bannister. Ammo parlare di questa regione perché i vini sono fantastici, ma anche perché ho notato che molti americani si confondono tra l 'uva amote porciano, popolare soprattutto in abruzzo, e i vini di amote porciano, citato Sgana, a base di San Giovesse. Ho incontrato Andrea e Silvia del Consorzio ad una degustazione di vino nobile a New York City. Poterli intervistare è stata un 'opportunità spontanea e non avevamo un posto ideale per crappare. Di conseguenza c 'è del rumore di fondo. Siamo qui oggi con due rappresentati di Consorzio, vino nobile di molte pulciano. Andrea Rossi e Silvia L 'Origa. Siamo qui a un degustazione di vino nobile di Montepolciano in New York City. Sono felice oggi di parlare con loro perché è un vino interessante, un vino nobile certo, è buono vino di San Giovese da Montepolciano, di Montepolciano. Grazie Andrea Rossi per essere qui con noi. Allora, io parlo con Andrea, Presidente della Consorzio e Silvia dal Consorzio anche, lavora molti anni con il Consorzio. Perché è nobile, moltepolciano? È una lunga storia, direi. Si parla di vino nobile, di vino a Montefolciano fin dal 1300 e dal 750 circa abbiamo trovato negli archivi di Stato si parla di vino nobile di Montevolciano perché era il vino migliore. Il vino che veniva consumato dai papi, dai cardinali, perfino George Washington aveva vino nobile nella sua cantina. Allora come disintivo San Giovese di questa regione contro diverse costi in Toscana? Il San Giovese è il vitigno della Toscana, evidentemente, ma secondo del terroir dove viene impiantato ha una risposta completamente diversa, ma non solo tra una zona della Toscana e l 'altra mi viene da pensare anche anticlassico al brunello, ma c 'è differenza anche all 'interno della stessa nostra denominazione, vino nobile di Montepulciano. A secondo se il San Giovese proviene, per esempio, dalla zona più lontana da Montepulciano -Capoluovo, cioè Valiano oppure Arjamo piuttosto che Ciervognano, abbiamo una risposta completamente diversa, un 'identità completamente diversa del nostro San Giovese. Naturalmente dipende dal terroir dove viene coltivato, dipende dalla storia geologica di quel territorio dipende quindi dalla composizione di quel terreno. Esatto la risposta in Italia che la diversità è una cosa di vastità, no? Non mi è sorpresa che è diversa in tutte diverse parti di molti pociano, ma forse se possiamo fare una cosa più generale, brutto generale, in una degustazione cieco forse ci sono qualità del vino nobile di molte polciano che è molto tipico di questo vino, notte aromi eccetera. Il sangiovese si distingue per esempio da uno degli elementi anche la potenza dei vini che vengono fuori a secondo delle zone, a secondo se siamo in una zona di sabbia piuttosto che in una zona di crete o pure un impasto medio perché poi diciamo che il nostro territorio principalmente possiamo dividirlo tra sabbie, un impasto medio e una zona delle crete. È evidente che a seconda di questi tre, in più si differenzia la potenza del vino che andiamo a degustare, così come diversi sono anche i profumi talvolta e anche se si può dire penso anche la finezza del vino che poi andiamo a degustare, per esempio ciò che viene dalle sabbie è qualcosa di molto fine, talvolta anche con un colore completamente diverso dalle altre zone, quindi non dico facilmente riconoscibile, ma oggettivamente per gli esperti si riesce veramente a identificare un tipo di sangiovese, quindi un vino con il suo territorio, con il suo terroir. Allora, accetto che diversità è la caratteristica di Vinognobile. Ho capito che ci sono nuovi sotto zone forse la sistema di pieve e sono felice di imparare di più di questo e di condividere con i nostri ascoltatori una lezione della sistema nuova di pieve. Una una lezione importante direi qualcosa di meno intanto sì vi è stata più brava di definire nella domanda precedente potrebbe aspirare a fare il presidente del consorzio e proprio l 'esaltazione della diversità ha fatto nascere questo nuovo sistema questo nuovo diciamo questa terza tipologia di vino nobile, perché così si chiama, abbiamo un vino nobile annata, abbiamo un vino nobile riserva e avremo un vino nobile piedi. Piedi sostanzialmente si rifà alle unità geografiche aggiuntive, anche se a noi non piaceva chiamare la nostra terza tipologia UGA, è è una, diciamo, non entusiasmava la base sociale. Spiega per favore il nome perché si chiama "Pieve". Allora, "Pieve" perché siamo risaliti ai documenti storici nell 'archivio del nostro comune e siamo risaliti alla mappa del catasto leopoldino, metà circa del 700\. In quella mappa già c 'erano delle zone divise del territorio, erano divise anche per caratteristiche già per le produzioni, ma ogni zona era praticamente aggregave e soprattutto è anche un modo per dire che noi stiamo facendo una terza tipologia di vino nobile, quindi una nuova tipologia di vino nobile, ma che alla fine si rifà alla storicità del vino nobile e alla tradizione. Diciamo che è una reinterpretazione in chiave contemporanea della storia del vino nobile. Piede, è un livello più grande della riserva soltanto o è possibile di mettere qual piede per tutti i vini di vino nobile? No, è un percorso assolutamente qualificante per il vino nobile, diciamo che noi stiamo costruendo la nostra piramide, abbiamo alla base il vino nobile annata, troviamo poi la riserva e all 'apice della piramide troveremo la pieve quindi come terza tipologia con una qualità più elevata. Andrea, puoi spiegare i nuovi regoli soltanto per a livello pieve. Sì, allora intanto nasce con una valorizzazione del San Giovese, che è il nostro vitigno, quindi minimo 85 % San Giovese, più un 15 % di vitini autoctoni, colorino, canaiolo, mambo, lo sono i vitini autoctoni che possono essere messi in questo nuovo vino nella quantità che ho detto del massimo dei 15%. C 'è uno invecchiamento di 30 mesi, 36 mesi, sono tre anni l 'invecchiamento prima della messa in commercio del vino nobile pieve e ci sono la novità rispetto per esempio alla riserva che deve fare almeno un anno di bottiglia, quindi di vetro per l 'affinamento. La riserva ne prevede solo sei mesi. In più la produzione, non tutti i vini nobili possono essere imbottigliati con il termine "pieve", ma devono essere tracciati fin dalla raccolta. Diciamo che è un progetto di filiera completa dalla vigna al bicchiere. Il produttore traccia nei propri registri la vigna di provenienza, traccia le quantità che devono essere inferiori rispetto al vino nobile anata e naturalmente arriva a fare il suo prodotto che prima di essere embottigliato deve essere approvato per l 'accreditato da una commissione speciale nata proprio per le pievi che degusta il prodotto e a secondo delle caratteristiche e, diciamo, dopo fatte le analisi potrà avere il dia libera per la certificazione e quindi successivamente l 'imbottigliamento. Se non supererà questa prima commissione è evidente che il vino non potrà essere imbottigliato con la menzione pieve ma potrà essere o una riserva oppure un vino nobile. Andrea, era un processo difficile con la gente di fare deciso dove la frontiera di ogni pieve? Sì, è stato forse la cosa più difficile da affrontare, perlomeno. Il progetto più o meno l 'avevamo tutti bene in mente perché sostanzialmente abbiamo reso una, diciamo, positivo un elemento che, nella percezione comune della stampa, spesso era individuato come una negatività, la differenza. Quindi la differenza del territorio, differenza di sangiovese, differenza di prodotto finale. L 'abbiamo reso oggi come una risorsa questa differenza e la stiamo certificando anche con la ricerca scientifica questa differenza, perché poi tutto ciò che possiamo anche solamente fare un 'operazione di marketing ma non ha una vita lunga, avrebbe assolutamente una vita molto breve. La nostra invece è qualcosa di reale, nato sull 'esperienza e l 'astoricità del nostro prodotto e che noi vogliamo certificare con la ricerca scientifica. Fare questo ha permesso ai produttori nel periodo del covid di confrontarsi e, seppur, di aggiustare, diciamo, anche il progetto rispetto alle linee huida iniziali è stato ritoccato cercando di ascoltare anche le esperienze di tutti e il contributo di tutti. Siamo andati in un 'assemblea da provare il disciplinale perché viene approvato dall 'assemblea del consorzio del vino nobile di tutti i produttori e alla fine è stato approvato all 'unanimità. Questo è stato per me una grande gratificazione e un ottimo risultato dimostrando evidentemente che il progetto non era solamente il progetto di un gruppo di dirigenti che guida oggi il consorzio, ma era un progetto condiviso dall 'intera denominazione, dall 'intero corpo sociale del consorzio. Questo era la cosa più importante. È molto difficile di scrivere una frontiera perché è una domanda politica perché forse un sottozono riceve, più giornalista è difficile per gli altri è una cosa molto politica no e auguri per al fine di arrivare al questo risultato bravo. Oh altra domanda perché questo animale nell 'immagine alla vino nobile e come si dice in italiano questo animale? Il grifo. Perché è un grifo? Allora, orestamente non so l 'origine proprio iniziale della scelta sul grifo però è una scelta che caratterizza Montepulciano anche la nostra città. Il del comune di Monte Bolciano ha un grifo nel proprio stemma, è un grifo posizionato in maniera diversa da quello del consorzio, è chiaro che è qualcosa che continua a legare il nostro territorio ad un prodotto simbolo del territorio, anche perché la nostra economia oggi vive principalmente di vino, turismo, ma turismo che è legato al vino, quindi è no turismo. Grazie mille, agli ascoltatori nuovi è il ritorno del podcast "Modoribere italiano". Mi piace molto imparare delle bevande e dei detti locali e condividere ciò che imparo con te. Se hai un momento per parlare del podcast a un amico o un collega, lo apprezzerei davvero. È un modo semplice per sostenere il mio lavoro. Puoi condividere la pagina Instagram di Moro di Bere, dove condivido video di bevande e detti locali dall 'Italia e da tutto il mondo. Grazie. Ho capito che è difficile perché nel mercato Vittigno Montepulciano è anche il Paese. Come lavorate il consorzio di fare più facile capire la differenza nel mercato? Per troppi anni, diciamo che non siamo stati in grado di fare chiarezza sul nostro nome, anche se per noi è chiaro, Montepulciano è una città, vino nobile di Montepulciano è evidente che è il vino di questa città dall 'altra parte. Se sono italiano, capisco facilmente, ma per gli altri sono più di che ricevo. Esatto, nel mercato internazionale c 'è stata una grandissima confusione tra la città Montepulciano, con il vitigno Montepulciano, tra l 'altro abbiamo trovato nell 'archivio storico di Stato il vitigno Monte Pulciano è arrivato in abruzzo attraverso la famiglia dei medici che per anni era Monte Pulciano, Monte Pulciano da sempre era sempre alleata di Firenze e dei medici i quali avevano una enclave a Sulmona avevano portato una loro proprietà sul muono e hanno portato un clone quindi un varietale da Montepulciano a sul muono e in quell 'occasione si diceva di fare il vino alla moda di Montepulciano, era il vino che veniva da Montepulciano e da lì nel tempo è diventato il Montepulciano. Perché non mettere San Giovesse nell 'etichetta? Fatto tutti questi passaggi, la vera politica degli ultimi 3 anni è stato inserire in etichetta Toscana. Dopo aver messo Toscana in etichetta, il brand Toscana è molto più forte in questo momento, anche del brand Italia. Ha una riconoscibilità incredibile. Sulla scaffale dell 'estero ha ha aiutato moltissimo il Vinonobili a recuperare ruote di mercato che probabilmente prima erano confusi con il Monte Vulciano da Bruzzo, anche perché il consumatore generico trovava spesso nello stesso scaffale, quindi in quel caso non c 'era neppure la preparazione di chi metteva in vendita il prodotto, trovava Monte Vulciano da Bruzzo insieme al Vinonobili di Monte Vulciano. Ecco quindi, aver messo a Toscana ha sostanzialmente dato a noi un input o per lo meno, non dico che ha chiuso la partita, ma senz 'altro ci ha permesso di raggiungere il 90 % del lavoro su questa differenza tra Montevolciano e Montevolciano -Ruz, poi dobbiamo continuare a lavorare sul fatto che noi siamo una denominazione Toscana e che Montefulciano è una città intoscana, purtroppo ci sono anche, diciamo, qualche volta spiacevoli comunicazioni, ho trovato in giro un po' una per esempio comunicazione in cui la città Montefulciano era collocata nel Bruzzo, insomma, o lo meno se l 'erano inventata, certe cose insomma credo che non servono a nessuno alla fine. Il nostro vino nasce principalmente come blend, nella storia il vino nobile è un blend. Come il movimento in molti puciano su uva francese, contra uva autotena? Allora, intanto il vino nobile annata rimarrà con il disciplinare che abbiamo oggi, perché ha un gusto internazionale, un è talvolta a una maggiore facilità di bevuta anche da parte del consumatore, quindi non andremo assolutamente a incidere su quella tipologia di vino. Su, invece, le piedi abbiamo deciso di tornare ad una reinterpretazione contemporanea della storia del vino nobile, un blend con i vitigni autotoni non mettendo assolutamente gli internazionali. È un vino completamente diverso, ha un procedimento completamente diverso, però ritengo che era matura a Montepulciano in questo momento la necessità di dare vita a questa terza tipologia di prodotto che rappresentasse più la nostra storia, la nostra tradizione e non solamente il mercato. Diciamo che non ci aspettiamo di fare la maggior parte delle bottiglie di questa tipologia, ma ci aspettiamo che questo vino possa essere il più identitario possibile con il nostro territorio e il più riconoscibile possibile con il nostro territorio. Mi avete detto che c 'è un limito per colorino? Perché non è considerato un uva di motocualità? - Diciamo che l 'uvaggio del colorino ha nel blend con il sangiovese più o meno la funzione che potrebbe avere gli internazionali, in particolar modo il merlo nel vino nobile. Se andiamo con percentuali oltre il 5%, rischiamo di non avere più il colorino all 'interno della pieve, ma di avere ancora forse qualche altro vitiglio. È un interessante gruppo di vitigni, colorino, perché non so soltanto un uva e ho capito che delle uve colorino sono tenturie, come corpo e buce due rosso, no? E' un interessante gruppo di uve, no? Assolutamente sì. Probabilmente anche quando abbiamo fatto la scelta di aumentare, di inserire gli internazionali nella denominazione, è derivata dal fatto di aver perso la storia e la tradizione dei vitigni autotoni, perché e poi in fine conti abbiamo trovato un vitigno internazionale che sostituiva quel vitigno storico che noi avevamo. Molte aziende sono tornate a impiantare parte dei vigneti con colorino, con canaiolo, con il mammo. È che in un periodo alla fine degli anni '90, primi 2000, probabilmente era molto più semplice rinnovare i vigneti mettendo una percentuale di merlot piuttosto che cavernem e merlot sostanzialmente quello che veniva utilizzato e abbiamo perso forse anche la nostra storia del tradizione sui cloni autoptoni. Oggi invece vogliamo ricominciare a valorizzare. Ho trovato certe notte aroma, sapore nei vini oggi alla degustazione di vino nobile e di molti pociano. Trovate una nota di menta e anche un po' di salvia e forse una cosa che mi ricordo un po' della nota e da nebiola di menthal, un po' ma più dolce e anche una nota di tè, "Tenero", si viola, si viola, in un classico noto di San Giverse, ma anche una cosa come, mi ricorda una formaggio che mi piace molto, "Morbiex". Sì, è corretto anche perché alcune note sono uscite negli ultimi due anni, probabilmente in questo ha influito anche il cambiamento climatico, non ne siamo esenti neppure noi e per esempio prima alcuni vigneti a una certa altezza avevano, però negli ultimi due anni hanno forse la fascia più caratteristica o caratterizzante il vino nobile che è quella che va da Argiano, Cervognano, una fascia intermedia, la parte più alta e la parte più bassa. Negli anni, nel corso del 2020 /21 hanno subito forse di più il cambiamento climatico favorendo magari altre aree. Alcune note sono uscite fuori e, onestamente, li abbiamo notate soprattutto nella nata 2019 e 2020\. Non so se queste note poi rimarranno una caratteristica e continueranno a caratterizzare il vino nobile oppure se saranno il frutto di un momento particolare dovuto a elementi assolutamente assolutamente, diciamo, straordinari. Silvia, se voglio visitare Motipucciano, che cosa trovo? Montepulciano è la mia città dove sono nata e che amo profondamente e dovete assolutamente venire a visitarla perché quello che io vi dirò di Montepulciano non, come dire, non sarà sufficiente per descrivere le emozioni che proverete nel venire a vedere questa bella cittadina. Anche arrivare a Montepulciano è bello perché ha una vista meravigliosa, arrivando da qualsiasi strada si vede questo bel paese sulla cima di una collina, una collina non bassissima e quindi si vede questa città medievale in alto e ti dice ok io voglio arrivare lì, voglio vedere cosa si vede dalla su e si può vedere bene dalla su. Io non so se hai mai visto il film Twilight, ma Twilight è stato girato a Montepulciano e non solo Twilight, ma tanti altri film, quindi chi ha visto Twilight un po' si può già immaginare quello che vi starò per raccontare, ma non sarà non sarà solo quello. Si entra a molte pulciano attraverso una porta, una porta molto bella che si chiama porta di bacco e quindi come non poteva, come altro poteva chiamarsi la porta principale di un paese che produce vino, Bacco era il dio del vino per gli antichi, quindi porta di Bacco assolutamente il nome più appropriato per noi. Si entra a Montepulciano e si inizia questa bellissima camminata, portatevi con voi una bottiglia d 'acqua, ma anche una bottiglia di vino ovviamente, e iniziate a camminare, a camminare, vigillerete sulla destra e troverete dei palazzi storici sulla sinistra, magari una notteca, sulla destra un bel negozio, sulla sinistra di nuovo un palazzo storico e voi continuate a camminare, fate una bella salita e poi a un certo punto vi troverete una magnifica vista sulla Val di Chiana, una vista mozzafiato e poi di nuovo ripartite sempre con le vostre le bottiglie nelle vostre mani, continuate a camminare ancora un bel palazzo storico, ancora dei bene gozzetti dove fare shopping, di nuovo una bella vista sull 'Avaldorcia e piano piano continuate a camminare fino ad arrivare nel punto più alto della nostra magnifica città che è Piazza Grande che è una piazza particolare perché ai quattro lati del quadrato della piazza ci sono quelli che prima simboleggiavano i quattro poteri più forti, quindi la cattedrale di Montepulciano che simboleggiava il potere della Chiesa, il nostro municipio, bellissimo tra l 'altro, che simboleggiava il potere del comune, scusate del popolo, su un altro lato c 'è il Palazzo del Capitano che era il Palazzo delle Guardie, il Palazzo dell 'Esercito e quindi testimoniava appunto questo potere e sull 'altro lato c 'erano i palazzi, mi viene in mente Palazzo Tarugio, Palazzo Contucci, con quei palazzi delle famiglie nobili che quindi stavano a simboleggiare appunto il potere delle famiglie nobili e in questa piazza si affacciavano questi quattro poteri dove si spera, ma sicuramente insomma oggi ne vediamo risultati potessero trovare dei punti di incontro per far crescere la città. Concludo con un 'ultima informazione, non lontanissima, anzi molto vicina dalla piazza principale, nel vero punto più alto del Paese, c 'era nostra bellissima e antica fortezza poliziana. La fortezza è il luogo degli uffici del Consorcio del Vino nobile, ci sono anche delle aule della Kansas State University, Ma non ultimo c 'era un 'enoliteca del consorcio del vino nobile dove è possibile assaggiare tutti i vini, tutti i prodotti del nostro territorio ma non è solo il poterle assaggiare è come li assaggerete infatti quando abbiamo iniziato i lavori di ristrutturazione sono stati trovati degli scavi antichi e quindi voi potrete assaggiare il vino nobile di Montepulciano, avendo sotto i vostri piedi delle rovine romane, delle rovine trusche che potrete osservare attraverso un pavimento di cristallo e se questa vista non vi basta potrete uscire in una meravigliosa terrazza fresca d 'inverno ma fresca fortunatamente anche dal caldo estivo e godervi una vista mozzafiato sulla valdorcia. Questa è Montepulciano, Questo è il nostro vino nobile tanto amato e spero che ci verete a trovare. Andiamo! Andiamo, non è possibile di stare qui! E come si dice "andiamo" in moltepulciano? Andiamo, andiamo! \[Musica\] modo di bere è un progetto sì divino ma anche di detti locali forse c 'è una modo di dire locale di molte polciano solo una parola mi viene in mente che ragazzo o ragazza che non diciamo ragazzo diciamo città o città città o città esatto come città ma senza cento è l 'unica curiosità è l 'unica cosa locale che usiamo un po' di più. Il tuo dialetto ha vinto, allora non è in dialetto. È interessante come definiamo queste cose, no? Allora, grazie mille, grazie mille per il tempo e molto interessante per me di imparare più vino nobile di Montipolciano, della città di Montipolciano e auguri finire il processo di fare un grande cambio nel sistema della vino nobile. Prima di finiamo è necessario di parlare un po' di rosso di Montepolciano, no? Non ne abbiamo parlato, ma è un vino assolutamente giovane, facile da bere, un vino che può essere il vino di tutti i giorni o per lo meno anche per le nuove generazioni che si avvicinano al vino nobile di Montepulciano, è assolutamente un vino dove il rapporto qualità prezzo è eccezionale e che negli ultimi anni ha dato, diciamo, dato anche delle buone soddisfazioni, i numeri sono in crescita in maniera importante, ormai la produzione di vino rosso di Monte Pulzano è completamente collocata sul mercato, prima avevamo invece una minore domanda, è evidente che il lavoro fatto per far conoscere insieme al vino nobile un vino diciamo più semplice ma sempre della nostra denominazione ci ha dato ragione poi alla fine. Diciamo che è un modo per avvicinarsi a Montepolciano e al vino nobile. Se una persona, forse non in Italia, vuole scegliere un San Giovese. È evidente, in questo momento rappresentiamo una denominazione che è il vino nobile di Montepolciano, ma lo dico in maniera molto oggettiva e non soggettiva. Il vino nobile di Montepolciano oggi ha un rapporto qualità prezzo eccezionale. è un sangiovese di grande livello, dove le aziende che producono Vino Novio di Montecolciano negli ultimi 15 anni hanno investito molto nel miglioramento del proprio prodotto, nel rendere anche più riconoscibile questo prodotto con il territorio. Oggi credo che la nostra denominazione sia un po' sottovalutata dal punto di vista del prezzo rispetto ad altre denominazioni, per questo ritengo che nello scaffale il rapporto qualità /prezzo del Dino nobile di Montepulciano in questo momento sia imbattibile rispetto a quelli che sono gli altri nostri competitors. Grazie mille per parlare con me di questa grande regione e grandi vini del vino di Montepulciano, rosso e vino nobile e riserva e a tutti i livelli di vino sono delegi o secondo me. Grazie per questa opportunità di poter parlare del vino nobile del Rosso di Montemulciano e dei nostri progetti futuri anche. Sì, sì, grazie. C 'è un sito web? Il nostro sito istituzionale del consorzio che è www .consorziovino nobile .it ovunque tu vada e qualunque cosa tu beva, ricorda di goderti la vita e di non smettere mai di imparare. con denuncias exclusivas y educativas www .mododibere .com La música ha sido compuesta desde Hercilia Prosperi para el grupo O1 Puedes escuchar su www .oumusic .banca .com Llevo bajo el brazo pa' yazo que permanece Dejándose llevar un otro, se engañando, se dejanse para ese mismo. La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto, registrato, e montato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Steve Silverstein ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S2E4 Through Bacco’s Door: Nobile News from Montepulciano URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e4-vino-nobile-di-montepulciano-news/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T23:14:13.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-it/s2e3/consorzio-del-vino-nobile-di-montepulciano) Rose Thomas interviews Andrea Rossi, president of the Consorzio of Vino Nobile di Montepulciano. Silvia Loriga, who works at the Consorzio, translates for Andrea. She also describes the medieval city where she was born in such a captivating fashion, Rose Thomas planned a trip to walk through the Porta di Bacco as soon as possible. Big news from the Vino Nobile DOCG is the new Pieve system, geographical subzones that should be rolled out on the labels of Montepulciano's top wines starting in 2024\. The wines from Montepulciano—a *place* in Tuscany—are based on the Sangiovese grape. They are not to be confused with wines made from the Montepulciano *grape* popular with winemakers in the region of Abruzzo. View Transcript **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) Montepulciano is a medieval town. You can go inside, enter to a big gate, big door. The first door is the Porta de Bakko. I don't know if you know who Bakko was. Bakko? Yes, Bakko is my favorite God. Exactly. He's my favorite God too. Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast for local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. For today's episode, I interview representatives of the Consortio of Vino Nobile di Montepulciano, D .O .C .G. I love to talk about this region because the wines are fantastic, but also because I've noticed many Americans being confused between multiple chiano the grape, popular particularly in the region of Abruzzo, and the wines of multiple chiano the town in Tuscany, which are based on San Giovese. I met Andrea in Sylvia from the consortio at a vino nobile tasting in New York City. To be able to interview them was a spontaneous opportunity and we did not have an ideal location. As a result, there is some background noise. Today I'm very excited to interview two representatives from the Consortio of Vino Nobile di Montepulciano. I'm here with Andrea Rossi and Silvia Loriga. We just met here in New York at an event tasting for Vino Nobile di Montepulciano. And I'm very excited to speak with you because I think Vino Nobile di Montepulciano is a wonderful wine and also I think can be a confusing wine for people who of course know that "Montepulciano" is a grape that is grown in many places in Italy, but they may or may not realize that there's also a San Giovese based wine grown in the town of "Montepulciano". It's one of my favorite areas in Tuscany and something I like to talk about. I'm speaking with Andrea. I'll let you get a little taste of his voice, but Andrea will be translated by his colleague Silvia for this interview. Andrea, Sì, mi dico un po' di montepulciano, perché è nobile? È una lunga storia, direi. Si parla di vino montepulciano fin dal 1300\. Il vino che veniva consumato dai papi, dai cardinali, perfino George Washington aveva vino nobile nella sua cantina. È una storia very long history because we always speak about Nobile and about Vino Nobile in Montepulciano. The first document we found it was dated 1350 and then we have another document of 7050 where we speak about Vino Nobile in Montepulciano. Also the US President Thomas Jefferson spoke in his book about the wines from Montepulciano and so it's a really long history, it's a really long relationship between Montepulciano and his wine. Fantastic. Andrea, what is different about the San Giovese from this region in Montepulciano as opposed to from other areas of Tuscany? The San Giovese is the wine of Tuscany, evidently. Quindi Montepulciano e in Tuscany, abbiamo sempre prodotto San Giovese al principio, quindi è l 'unico più famoso grato in Tuscany e per sicuro ci sono molte differenze tra le differenze, l 'area, per esempio l 'area di Anticlassico e l 'area di Brunello di Montalcino are really different. They always use San Giovese for their wines, but they are different. But you can find those differences not only in such a big area, but you can find very interesting differences also in a quite little area as Montepulciano. In fact, if you consider The farthest area of Monte Pulciano, farthest from the city center called Valiano, is one of the 12 Piede. The ones you have there are completely different than the ones you have in the area, maybe close to the city center. So the difference between San Giovese is possible, they are possible to tasted to feel not only in all the Tuscany, but also if you can pay attention in a very small area. So I love this answer because the story in Italy is that there's always this incredible diversity. Really, you can just get more and more and more and more particular. So I'm not surprised at all that this is the answer. I want to talk to you more about the geological differences for sure in the soil and the climate about multiple Tiano but first I want to ask the flavor in the wine let's be more general than is really correct for a moment and say okay you have some San Giovese in a blind tasting how do you choose the vino nobile are there flavors and aromas structure that are more associated with the San Giovese as certain characters San Giovese si distingue, per esempio, da uno degli elementi anche la potenza dei vini che vengono fuori a secondo delle zone. Il San Giovese è qualcosa di molto tipico in Tuscany e è possibile trovare un caratteristico molto interessante, ma usually it's not the best thing just to say the San Jovese is red cherry, plum and that's it because you know as we told before in Monte Pulsano we have several areas it's it's not as smart just to say one word for San Jovese because we have some clay soil and the clay soil you can find some very characteristic taste for San Jovese. So maybe it's a little bit mineral and the color is also different. In some other areas we have sandy soil. So we have another type of wine. So it's not easy to understand or maybe to recognize this different, but San Jovese is a very territorial grape. So it's not easy to grow San Giovese everywhere. It's not like some other grape like Cabernet or Merlot, so you can plant Cabernet or Merlot everywhere. It's not the same for San Giovese. San Giovese is very strictly related with the center of Italy. It has in particularity of the San Trovese. - Great, so let's talk about some of those subsones because I think that Toscana, Tuscany, is so interesting as a microcosm of wine laws, not just Italian wine laws, but wine laws in general. It's one of the oldest, one of the places with the first named legally protected wine laws in the world. And so I love this history, but also in the current moment, there are all these new subsons. And I learned recently about the new Piave system, about the newly delineated subsons of the Vinonobili area. So I'm really excited to spend some time educating myself and all of our listeners about this new system. una lezione importante direi qualcosa di meno intanto si vi sarà più brava di me definirne la domanda precedente potrebbe so we we start to think about new wine because we really believe in the potentiality of our Pinot Nobile di Montecolciano and for us speak about difference It's not something negative, but it's something really positive. So we start to make a lot of study to find the area where we can have interesting difference. So in Montepulciano, we have three kinds of Vinno nobile di Montepulciano, the Vinno nobile annata, so it's the regular one. Then we have the Vinno nobile Reserva, so that means one year more of aging and now we have the third Born the third boy the Vino noblia di Montepulciano, Piave. Piave is the UGA in Italy We call UGA UGA, but as you ask in the first questions Montepulciano is elegance is finest, so we don't want to use UGA UGA is something not really elegant for us. That term is that's for Qianti, right? You've got your own system. But the UGA I understand is also new and a new system of subzones for Qianti Classico. In the past Qianti Qianti the larger area had its own separate subzones and it's actually very new this But that's their sub -zones and you have your own area. Yeah. Now, what does it mean, "Pieve"? "Pieve" is a church with Fonte Battesimale, so it's a place where you can have a sacrament. And we found in Montepulciano we have twelve "Pieve" at least. I think the English word "perish"? In the states we have mostly counties but I believe the state of Louisiana has I think parishes. So if you think of it as an area. Exactly and this is the translation but okay for the difference but we want also to find a name we can use everywhere. Can you put the new PAVA system on the location on any E' un percorso assolutamente qualificante per il Vino nobile? Diciamo che noi stiamo costruendo la nostra piramide. E' solo per il Vino nobile, ma ti chiedo perché. Ti devi considerare che il Vino, in Montepulciano adesso, ha un pyramid, and where we have at the bottom, we have the Vino Noble di Montepulciano annata. Then we have the Reserva, and in the highest point of the pyramid we have the Piede, it's the highest point, but it's also the less quantity of wine. And to produce Piede There are a lot of strictly rules more than the Vino nobile. The Vino nobile already has a lot of rules, but for the Piave we want to have more, more strictly. Could you explain some of the stricter rules for the Piave level? Sì, allora intanto nasce con una valorizzazione del San Giovese, che è il nostro vitigno. Absolutely, yes. So the Piave has a lot, really a lot of new rules. First of all the grapes. In nobile base, in nobile annata, we have minimum 70 % San Giovese but in the piebe we have minimum 85 % San Giovese and the other grapes allowed as only local or native grape, canaiollo, colorino, mambo. Moreover, colorino only not more than 5 % And also another important difference is the aging. The aging for the pieve is 36 months and at least 12 months in a bottle. For the reserva was at least six months. Another important rule is the quantity of grape we can produce directly in the vineyard is less than the vino nobile and nata. Another very important rule is in some chemical characteristics and the most curious for me introduction we use is to have two different commissions. We always have a committee for the vino nobile di Montepulciano. they taste the wine and decide if that one can be Villanoble di Montepucceano. But for the Piede, before to go to the final committee, we have another very, how do you say, very cattiva, very difficult, strict, exactly internal committee who taste the Piede. They are the first to decide if that wines can become piave. So the piave has to pass two different committees, not only ones, like in the Vino Nobile and Nata, or in the Reserva. This sounds like it's going to be a wine of amazing quality. Yeah, absolutely. My next question is, was it a contentious process to decide together as a region the borders of the new piave? Sì, è stato forse la cosa più difficile da affrontare, o perlomeno, il progetto più o meno l 'avevamo. So, absolutely yes, it was very difficult, it was difficult since the beginning, but it was also a very long moment for us, not in the worst meaning of the the world, but was long. But this very interesting project needs time to arrive at the end. And the first idea was to come together in this direction. So, yes, it was difficult because we have, in our Concerto 81ery inside the Concerto, so it's not easy to think all in the same way. So, yes, it was difficult to find the final way to arrive here. But I think in a very big project, like the Piave project, we need to, not to be in rush, we need to find our time and we need to have time to speak with a colleague, with a producer. So, yes, it was a long and difficult project. We start to find a study about the geological previous study. We find out the Catastro Leopoldino, so it's the Leopoldian study about our terror. and we also studied the land, the soil, and then we decided, so the consortium and the technical decided the different, the border of the different area. At the end of this first step, we made the consortium a big assembly with all the Wanderers associated, and at the end, all the people decide, "Yes, go ahead with the Piave project." "Yes, we want to do the third Vino no Bia di Montecolciano, and Piave is the right street." So it was something really difficult, also for the president, as he told, but for sure it was something really satisfying. Satisfying. Satisfying, absolutely. Satisfying in the end. Yeah, Yeah, it sounds like it. In the history of making these distinctions between different zones, it can be very political, especially if a certain area gets more press and then you're not in the hottest zone. And so I know some regions can be resistant to making these distinctions because it can be a really political process so I congratulate you on coming to completion with these borders. You have this animal as your symbol and I believe it's a griffon and I don't know how to say this in Italian but why is a griffon the symbol of vino nobile? So our Gryphon is very familiar for us, we don't know exactly when the idea of the Gryphon arrives in Montepulciano or inside the Consorzio, but the Vino Nobile di Montepulciano has as a symbol the Gryphon. It's not only the symbol of Vino Nobile because the Gryphon is the symbol of Montepulciano, of the city of Montepulciano. So the griffon used in the city hall is a little bit different, not too much different, just a little bit, but we don't know exactly when the consortium start to use this symbol, but for sure we know the reason why. So the reason is also in our il nome "Vinonobile di Montepulciano". We really believe the Vinonobile doesn't exist without Montepulciano and Montepulciano maybe exists without Vinonobile but for sure is a different Montepulciano. So the griffon is our symbol because we are really related to our territory. I want to say thank you so much to the new and returning listeners of the MotoDBerry podcast. I really enjoy learning local drinks and sayings and sharing what I learned with you. If you have a moment to tell a friend or colleague about the podcast, I'd really appreciate it. It's an easy way to support the work that I do. You can share the MotoDBerry Instagram page where I share videos of local drinks and local sayings from Italy and from all around the world. You can share this podcast with them. And you can also write a review and give the show five stars on Apple podcasts. It really helps more people discover the show. Thank you so much for your support. So let's talk a moment about this, I'm sure, difficult confusion in the market with "Multipulciano, the town" and "Multipulciano, the grape". How have you tried to fix this misunderstanding? For us it is clear that Montepulciano is a city, the noble wine of Montepulciano is evident that the wine of this city. much for your question is a very important information for us, is a very important argument for us. We start to think about, not find the difference, but find a different way to communicate the two different wines. As you know, wines from Montepulciano, Vino Nobile, the Montepulciano is easy to understand for people born in Italy but not for the people born all around the world. Also there is the funny history behind the name Montepulciano for my colleague from Abruzzo because I don't know remember exactly when in which time but family she has a lot of vineyards in Tuscany. But they also have, how can I say, a little house in Sormona, in Abruzzo, and they decide to move some plant of vines there. And the people start to speak about the grape from Montepulciano, make the wines as they do in Montepulciano, used the grape from Montepulciano, but was a long phrase to say, very long. So in the years, it became the grape Montepulciano, just it. And the end was just Montepulciano. And here, the born has the similar name, so not similar, but a well -named, but for completely different wines. So can I ask you, did they bring the multiple channel grape from Tuscany to Abruzzo? Not they bring, the family Medici bring, the family Medici was from Tuscany, was from our area and they bring their own grape in Abruzzo. So they are one of the richest family at that time in the world. With all that history, how are you coming to communicate this difference to the market now? So the beginning was really difficult, but thanks to the president, thanks to the board of direction, two years ago we changed. We had the first important change of our appellation. We put the word "toscana" on the label and now is something that all the producer has to do, to put the word "toscana" in the label for "nobile" and for "Rosso di Montepulciano". So now finally we have on the label the difference of the region for the other colleague is Montepulciano da Brutzo, but for us is Vino Nobile nobile di Montepulciano, Toscana is long, but is what we are. That's great. So, since Montepulciano, the grape, is grown more in our bruzzo. If you put Toscana on every bottle, at least it can make people pause a little bit and to consider. Okay, yes. Do you put San Giovese on the label? No, absolutely not San Giovese for a per molte razioni, ma magari il Presidente è migliore se... Perché non mettere San Giovese nell 'attichetto? Fatto tutti questi passaggi, la vera politica degli ultimi? No, non mettiamo San Giovese sul labore, ma mettiamo un scan sul labore. Anche perché, come abbiamo detto prima, sorry, San say, or Montecrucciano, they are grape, and it's possible to produce that kind of grape everywhere, in every part of the world, more or less. Toscana is a really strong brand right now, maybe stronger than Italy brand. So it's the reason why we want to be in our region. It's not only for our grapes, but we want to be che ci sono e che ci sono. Il nostro vino nasce principalmente come blend, nella storia il vino nobile è un blend, quindi non potremmo mettere. Il most importante, il vino nobile di Monte Pulciano, born and historical, is a blend. So, we cannot put San Giovese in our label because it's not only San Giovese, it's a blend between different varieties. For sure, mostly it's San Jovesi, but it's not only San Jovesi. I love this story because San Jovesi is this slow, ripening, thin -skinned grape and doesn't have the stable color as some of the other grapes. So, it's true. It has always needed those local blending partners. And a related question is, with the big movement towards birds and then away from the French blending grapes in Tuscany. What is the story right now in Multipluciano? I know you mentioned that at the Piave level you are now only allowing the local native grapes. Is that something you're trying to encourage and do you see more use of the indigenous grapes in general in Multipluciano as well as as is happening around the rest of Tuscany? Allora, intanto il vino nobile annata rimarrà con il disciplinare che abbiamo oggi. Per un 'antica volta usiamo varietà internazionali in il nostro grimo, in il nostro wine, sorry. Sì, è qualcosa che per noi è normale, ma con i piedi vogliamo essere We want to be more related with our area. And we don't know if it's the first time it's a blend. It's always be something produced with San Giovese and with other grape. We don't want to put a stop in the Cabernet or in Merlot. It's something that we use, we have. It's not shameless for us, absolutely. But for the Piede, we want to be more focused on the native, on the indigenous grape. There's such a long history of cross -pollination, you could say, of the French and Italian influence. People, I mean, going back really hundreds of years, the thing that did happen was going a little bit out of balance with planting during the Super Tuscan movement, this explosion of interest in these kind of Bordeaux style blends and then of course what happened was some of the indigenous grapes they were pulled up to plant the burlot. I did not repeat the question in English at the time but here I asked Andrea where the regulations limit the colorino grape to only five percent of the blend for the new PAV level. che è l 'ovaggio del colorino. decide to put maximum five percent of colorino is the reason is to preserve the pieve from Merlot. We don't say we don't like Merlot but we don't want Merlot in our pieve. So to put maximum five percent colorino means to put in a safe area all the all the wines or the pieve wines. That's so interesting And colorino is very interesting too, because it's not just one grape, it's a group of grapes. We know we have a lot of different kind of colorino. What we happen in Montepulciano, but not all in Montepulciano, so in the limited area around us, when The growers needed to replant just one plant, not an entire vineyard, but just something small. They used Merlot. Merlot because it was easy to find, easy to plant, it was very easy to grow up. So it's the reason why they decided to put somewhere a little plant of Merlot, one here, one there, one here again. So, at the end, we find we have some Merlot in our land. It's something that we don't, how can we say, we don't, non -disconosciamo, lol, we know is something that happened, is something that we have, is something that now is in our culture of Vino La Pria di Montipulciano, but with the Piede, we want to came back to the origin, came back to what we have at the beginning when we start to produce wine in Montepulcana, when we start to produce the vino, the Montepulcana, the vino nobile di Montepulcana. Bravo! So some of the notes that I found today in the tasting in several of the wines were notes of mushrooms, sweet herbs, sage, mint, I couldn't non potevo decidere a qualsiasi noto di Suit Erbs Violet e anche io penso di questi ciasi con un layer di asci intorno al Morbier, anche se fanno uno in California che è chiamato Tom Boat Fog, non so se il wine è davvero smelto come questi ciasi o solo mi vogliono si è corretta anche perché alcune note sono uscite negli ultimi due anni, probabilmente Aroma, some note that you can find in the Vinno nobile, but most curious is there are some notes that we start to have since not a long time. We start to find out these kind of smells and aroma maybe in the vintage 2019 and 2020\. We never had to forget the climate We also, in Montepulcano, we have climate change. We can feel the change all around the world and, for sure, also in Montepulcano. We have some difference. Our fortune is, Montepulcano is high, it's hills with the city center at the top, but we, it's a high hills. So, we have some central area, Arjano. because not about Villanoblia di Montipulcano in this period maybe it's not so easy, but for sure what you taste in the wines is something that is common to find in the Villanoblia di Montipulcano right now. Can we talk a little bit about the town of Montipulcano? Sure. I have never been. I would really like to visit. What is the actual city like? So have you ever seen the Twilight Oh, I admit no. The Twilight movie was filmed in Montepulciano. It was a little bit changed for a scenographic thing, but Montepulciano is a beautiful city. It's my place where I was born. It's a beautiful place. It's not for all the people because it's really high. It's really tough to start from the beginning and arrive at the really top of the city. It's not like New York City, it's all flat, you have to walk, walk, walk, come on, okay, but it's flat, no, absolutely not like this in Montepulciano. It's a medieval town. You can go inside, enter to a big gate, big door. The first door is Porta di Bacco, I don't know if you know who Bakko was. - See, Bakko? - Bakko? - Yes, my favorite color. - Exactly, he's my favorite god too. So, you enter in the city center in the Porta de Bakko, he's Porta means door or gate, and you start to have a very beautiful walk up to the hills and you have Asian palace and you have asian church and you have very interesting shops and you have maybe a bar and you have a wine shop and then again historical palace and then you have to take a bottle of wine or water with you maybe just to arrive at the end and then maybe you walk in the street you turn left and wow there is a beautiful view on the Val d 'Orcia area and then you continue to move very slowly because it's not easy so very slowly and wow another beautiful view on the Val d 'Orcia it's not a big city like New York like Rome but at the end of the work we arrived in the main square Piazza Grande and you have four different uh palace. You have the cathedral, you have the city hall, you have Palazzo del Capitano and you have nobile palace. So what does it mean? The main square was the place where all the fourth power of the city can link. The cathedral was the pope or the church power. The city hall was the people power. The Palazzo del Capitano was the Capitan palace, so was the military power and then we have Palazzo Tarugio, Palazzo Contucci, so they are noble family. Montipulciano was also the power of noble family. Not too far from the main square you also find the fortress. The fortress is the really highest point of Montepulciano, where inside there are the offices of Concortes del Vino nobile. Our wine shop is something unique because you can arrive in the wine shop after the walk up to the hills, taste all the wines of Montepulciano, have a wonderful view on the Val d 'Orcia, but I don't want to show you the surprise because there is a very curious floor because when we start to restore the fortress we found asian ruins under the floor so you can see the asian ruins in our Enoliteja and you can see Etruscan i suoi ruinti, il Vino nobile, hanno un 'occhio sulla Val d 'Orcia e sentono qualcosa che si può raccontare. - Che stiamo facendo qui? - Siamo andando! - E come si dice "andiamo" in moltepulciano? - Andiamo! - Andiamo? Our area of Tuscany where Montipulcano is is the place where the Italian language So your local language became Italian Italian Italian. Yeah, we don't have any Like a dialect. Yeah, we don't have your dialect one. It is that they have just one word in my mind It's a local way to call boy or girl in Italian is a ragazzo or ragazza in our area we used to say "chitto" or "chitta" is something not really elegant but it's something we really use a lot. Just one word I think it doesn't be important. Do you use this just for children or do you also use it as an informal greeting for people of the age? Hey girl, hey guy, let's go. So, I know in a lot of places there's a different way to say, "Hey, hey you, let's go, let's go get a drink." We always say, "Ciao, ciao, andiamo, andiamo, andiamo, andiamo, andiamo, andiamo, andiamo." Okay, let's go, andiamo, andiamo. Okay. All right. So, you're a dialect one, and so it's not a dialect anymore. Exactly. Exactly. So, I don't want to forget to talk a little bit about the other wine besides the vino nobile. We have also a different TOC, correct, rosso di multipleciano based on San Giovese. Absolutely, yes. Our love, the rosso di multipleciano is a DOC based on San Giovese. It's easy. It's easy, our rosso di multipleciano. It's fresh, it's something you can have every single day is something that we used to have every single day in our house, it's something fresh, it's something younger, it's something that it's very popular and also we are very proud of the street that Rosso di Montipulciano did in the past few years because it's But the entry -level wine, it's not more the entry -level wine but it's something very interesting. And also the relationship between the price and the quality is perfect right now. And the last goal we have is we have our Rosso di Montepulciano completely sold. So che è molto interessante e molto importante, perché questo significa che Rosso di Montepulciano trova l 'area di Motepulciano. È l 'area di Motepulciano. Sì, è assoluto. Dovete avere un po' di valore per il Motepulciano quando sceglie il vino nobile di Motepulciano? E' evidente, non siamo in questo momento rappresentando una denominazione che è il vino nobile di Motepulciano, ma lo dico in maniera molto oggettiva e non soggettiva. Now, we represent Vino Noble di Montipulcano for sure, so what the president says is he speaks absolutely with information on what we have on the market and we know the price, more or less we know the influence of the other appellation in Tuscany, but the Vino Noble di Montipulcano for sure, Vino Nobile di Montipulcano right now has the really, how do you say, value for money is absolutely balance is perfect and is something that it's not easy to find in the other appellation right now. So if you are making that choice, you might go for Vino Nobile and really get a lot of wine for your money. Yeah. Yeah. I think they're great. I think they're really elegant. I was so impressed with everything that I tasted today and also thank you so much for being so friendly and in talking with me at the last minute. I was really excited to meet you both Sylvia, Andrea. Is there a place on the on the web where people can go to learn more about your region? Sure is our website www .consortiovino nobile .it Follow Motodiberi on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok for even more unique and encouraging drinks and language content. If you would love for the show to continue and grow, support Motodiberi on Patreon and unlock bonus episodes. Find out more at motodiberi .com, where you can also sign up for my newsletter. Music for the podcast was composed by Ursilia Prosperi and performed by the band O. You can purchase their recordings at oumusic .bandcamp .com. Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) Video version by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Food and Wine Pairing ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e5-food-and-wine-pairing-with-joyce-lin/) [ Mesa by Mesa ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e3-mesa-by-mesa/) ### ▷S2E2 Altopiano piano: consigli dell’artista Diné Elmer Yazzie URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s2e2-altopiano-piano/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:19:01.000Z Rose Thomas racconta di un mese on the road per Modo di Bere, un viaggio che la porterà dal Texas al New Mexico fino all'Italia. Dopo aver condiviso una frase salernitana che le è stata insegnata dall'enologo Silvia Imparato, RT trasmette un consiglio simile da Elmer Yazzie, un artista e insegnante che ha recentemente organizzato il terzo Trail Ride annuale della Giornata dei popoli indigeni nel New Mexico e nella nazione Navajo. L’intervista completa di Elmer sarà pubblicata successivamente sul canale YouTube di Modo di Bere. Ovunque ti porti questa settimana, non dimenticare di guardarti intorno. [Ascolta in inglese / Listen in English](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-en/s2e3/mesa-by-mesa) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)Benvenuti a Moro di Bere Italiano, il podcast su bei vande locali e detti locali. Sono la condutrice Rose Thomas Bannister. Quando scrivo questo, è il 21° giorno dei 32 viaggiando per moro di bere. Un viaggio che mi ha portato dal Texas al New Mexico, a Roma poi in Calabria e infine nel cuore del Groscana. All 'atto delle bevande e detti locali ho imparato un nuovo gioco di domino e ho avuto alcune nuove avventurose esperienze di guida compreso in un carro già in atto da una squadra di Muli Belgi. Mi aspetto di tornare con una nuova intervista alla prossima, ma se c 'è qualcosa che sto imparando in questo viaggio è a non essere troppo rigido di fronte al destino. Yam Veren, andiamo a cercare, è una frase in dialetto salernitano. Puoi vedere la viticotriccia Silvia Imperato che mi insegna questa frase in un video che ho pubblicato sul account Instagram di Moro di Bere, l '11 luglio, Tendo a spossarmi troppo con la struttura dei miei schemi, ho bisogno di questo consiglio per lasciarmi andare, guardarmi intorno e essere aperta a nuovi modi di vivere. In un altro senso potrebbe significare semplicemente di essere più attenti. Durante questo viaggio ho ricevuto un simile consiglio da Elmeriasi. Elmeriasi a causa di un lungo matrimonio e dalle necessità di alcuni cavalli. Dove possiamo andare per ammazzare il tempo o chiesto a Elmer? C 'è un bar? Questa non era davvero una domanda. Il mio amico Bruce ed io avevamo già girato al lungo cercando il posto per incontrare con Elmer. Ero abbastanza sicura che non ci fosse un bar. Piuttosto che ammazzare il tempo, ora c 'è un detto, Elmer ha suggerito di sederci e goderci la solitudine, guardando una sezione della mesa. Una mesa a New Mexico è un tipo di piatto piano con la cima piatta e le pareti molto ripide. Così Bruce mi diede una serie da campo, camminai lungo la strada e studiai la messa. Mi è sembrato un buon esercizio per gli scrittori e mentre lo facevo mi sentivo una scrittrice. È stata una bella cosa da fare durante il mio primo tramonto nel New Mexico dopo molti anni. Una lunga attesa si è trasformata in un tempo appena sufficiente per federe anche una sola mesa in questa bellissima parte del mondo. che Elmer ha con i cavalli. Questa intervista sarà pubblicata sul canale YouTube di Moro di Bere, qualche tempo dopo il mio ritorno a New York dopo questo viaggio. Era da molto tempo che non andavo a cavallo ed ero nervosa. Ho chiesto un consiglio a Elmer e lui mi ha detto di non in nervo silmi che il cavallo se ne sarebbe accolto se avesse avuto paura. Mi ha dato anche altri consigli e isturzioni per aiutarmi a sentirmi più connesso al cavallo e più sicura di cosa fare. Il giorno dopo, Elmer mi permisse di cavalcare la sua cavalla, Sugar. Sugar è piccola, maculata è molto morbida e Elmer mi ha detto che era originalmente una cavalla selvaggia. Quando tutti i cavalieri hanno lasciato la strada per correre dritti su per una colina, mi sono detto di non aver paura e ho chiesto a Sugar di non lasciarmi cadere e non la fatto. È un 'esperienza a cui sto ancora pensando. Voglio ringrazi... e i loro costumi, il loro cibo e le loro bevande e, sì, il tempo con i loro animali. In questo viaggio ho visto cani e gatti, cervi e muli, cavalli, poni, lama e tori. La biodiversità è una vera meraviglia. Ovunque tu vada e con un che cosa tu beva, ricorda di goderti la vita e di non smettere mai di imparare. educativisuvuvu .mododibere .com La música está composta de "Ercilia Prosperi" para el grupo OU. Puedes escuchar su www .ou -music .bandca .com Llevo bajo el brazo payasoque permanece dejando se llevar Un otro, se engañando, se deja separarse mismo La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto, registrato, e montato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Steve Silverstein ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S2E3 Mesa by Mesa: Advice from Diné Artist Elmer Yazzie URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e3-mesa-by-mesa/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T23:17:25.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-it/s2e2/rose-thomas-bannister-altopiano-piano) Rose Thomas reports from a month on the road for Modo di Bere, a trip that’s taking her from Texas to New Mexico to Italy. After sharing a phrase from Salerno that she was taught by winemaker Silvia Imparato, RT relays similar advice from Elmer Yazzie, an artist and teacher who recently organized the third annual Indigenous People’s Day Trail Ride in New Mexico and the Navajo Nation. Elmer’s full interview will be published later on the Modo di Bere YouTube channel. Wherever this week takes you, don't forget to look around. Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) Video version by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Vino Nobile di Montepulciano ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e4-vino-nobile-di-montepulciano-news/) [ Texas Wine?! ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e2-texas-wine-with-shelly-wilfong/) ### ▷S2E2 Texas Wine with Shelly Wilfong URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e2-texas-wine-with-shelly-wilfong/ Last updated: 2026-08-23T23:31:38.000Z Shelly Wilfong, host of the podcast This is Texas Wine, takes Rose Thomas through the map of the USA's fifth-largest wine producing state. Rose Thomas likes Shelly's podcast so much, she scheduled a trip to Texas to learn more. Texas is larger than France, with diverse terroirs, beautiful tasting rooms, talented winemakers and the occasional prize saddle. Check out Shelly's podcast and her excellent website full of resources for the Texas-Wine-curious: [https://www.thisistexaswine.com/](https://www.thisistexaswine.com/?ref=mododibere.com) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyQmcBfrVIo/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyQmcBfrVIo/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) **Expand for auto-generated transcript.** (Please excuse errors.) View Transcript one of the biggest wine competitions in America actually is associated with a Houston livestock show and rodeo. And if you win, you get a saddle, a horse saddle. If you win pop winery, you get an actual saddle. And there's a winery in the health country you may want to stop by. They have I think four or five saddles displayed in their tasting room. But if you win kind of a class championship, so your wine is the best, you know, San Jose, say $25 to $40, you get a belt buckle. So people collect, I mean, they have a million belt buckles. And if you're lucky, maybe even a saddle. Wow. I love that. That is some local culture people. That is wonderful. Welcome to Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. I'm here today with Shelly Wilfong, a wine educator and the host of the excellent podcast, "This Is Texas Wine." Shelly, welcome. - Thank you so much. I'm delighted to be here. - Shelly reminds me of an old fashioned newspaper reporter. She delivers the latest news on Texas Wine along with truly interesting interviews. But my favorite part of your show is at the end, which is the gold stars and demerits. Shelly's website feels like a one -step resource on Texas wine. I really feel your love for wine, for Texas, and for the wines of Texas. Well, thank you. That's the idea. It's definitely a labor of love, but I've had a lot of fun doing it, and I'm glad you like the demerits and gold stars. It's fun to see how those have evolved, and now people send me their ideas for demerits and gold stars that I should include. That is hilarious. What's your favorite demerit and gold star that immediately comes to mind? Well, I can tell you the most recent one. I just dropped a podcast today, number 69\. And the gold star is that one of the top restaurants in the entire nation was just named the 2023 Food and Wine Magazine top restaurant of the year. It's called Birdies in Austin, Texas. So that's a gold star. They have a 250 bottle wine list. Unfortunately, only two of those bottles are from Texas. And so that is the demerit. So I try not to be totally scathing in the demerits, but I do have to kind of poke at things when I see decisions that aren't really Texas wine friendly. Well, I enjoy it. It's like you're, you're spilling the wine, it's a little guilty pleasure. I enjoy it. So I would love to know when did you fall in love with Texas Wine and what inspired you to start this podcast? - Well, I have been writing about Texas Wine for about six years, primarily for a website called Texas Wine Lover. And through that site, I had the opportunity to meet with a lot of producers, try a lot of Texas wines. I had been studying wines for many years prior to that, but in the different programs like the WSET programs and so forth, you just don't learn about Texas. Maybe you have a vague idea that Texas makes some wine just because all the other states do too, but there wasn't any kind of focused attention on Texas. But about six years ago, I had the opportunity to start writing for this Texas -focused wine website. And at the time, I mean, I had had some Texas wine that I thought was fine, but I hadn't explored very widely. And so through writing, I really came to know more about Texas wine. And since then, there are some Texas -specific wine certifications that you can get. Anybody can. You don't have to be a Texas resident. And so I've also pursued those. But early on, there was not a lot of Texas wine in my general wine education. But during the pandemic, actually, I was thinking about how I wanted to pursue more around Texas wine. And I thought there is not currently a Texas wine podcast. There had been one many years in the past that had produced maybe 20 or so episodes, I believe. And then that had gone away. And so I thought, well, how hard could it very famous last words. It's not terribly hard, but there is a lot that goes into it, as you know. And I've had a great time and really focusing. It's a very large state. It's actually even bigger than France. And so there's plenty of material. Let's just say that. I love earning certifications. Tell me about the Texas Wine Certification. There are two Texas Wine Certifications that are both offered by the same instructor in the same school, which is called the Texas Wine School. They do classes both in person and virtually and the Texas Wine Certification is a level one and then an advanced level, level two. And those are both held virtually. So anywhere you can receive a shipment of wine, you could order the wines for the class and take the class. It's taught by Dr. Russ Kane, who is just a brilliant historian and he has really chronicled so much of the Texas wine story and has taught me a good amount of what I know. I've forgotten more than I should have at this point, but it's been a fun journey to really delve into everything Texas. Now, I'm about to delve into Texas myself because at the moment in time when this interview is being recorded, I'm about a week out from having a Texas wine adventure. So I'm really excited about that and grateful to you and your podcast. You have these wonderful maps along with other resources on your website. Could you kind of take us through the wine regions in the map? Surely. Like I said, it's a very big state and Texas actually is the number five wine producing state in the nation And there are several key wine -growing areas in the state. There are actually eight aviaries, but I'll tell you about a few of the most important. One is called the Texas High Plains. And if you're looking at a map of Texas, look at the top left -hand corner. So the northwestern part of the state, and Texas High Plains, the main city nearby is Lubbock, Texas, which is a college town. And that is an agricultural focused area, not only for wine grapes, but for many, many crops that are grown in Texas, everything from cotton to soybeans to peanuts to watermelon. And back in the 70s, a bunch of grow farmers actually started growing grapes because it was a more water friendly crop, there was more value per acre, etc. And so that's actually the primary growing region in the state of Texas. And about 80 % of the grapes grown in Texas are in that AVA, the Texas High Plains. The other area that you should really focus in on is actually where I believe you are going on your upcoming trip, and that is the Texas Hill Country. And the Texas Hill Country is just right in the smack dab middle of Texas. And it is the third largest AVA or American Viticultural Area in the country. So it is a huge, huge region. There are some subregions, some nested AVA's within that and there are about to be even a couple more. But that middle part of Texas is where most of the tourism is based. So many, many wineries using grapes from the high plains will bring them into their wineries that are located in the Hill Country. And when you hear about Texas wine tourism, most likely you're focusing in on the area in the Hill Country. So towns, cities like Austin and San Antonio are very close and even Houston and Dallas are within maybe a four hour trip into the Hill Country. So there's a lot of population, a lot of tourism and it's an exciting area, not just for tourism, but there are actually also vineyards there. That's the second most prolific area for wine grape growing in the state. Another thing to know about the first area I mentioned, the Texas High Plains, you might have guessed from the title of the region, it is at high elevation. Now, it's as flat as a pancake, but it is at very high elevation. I mean, not just for Texas, but for anywhere in the world. When we're talking about high elevation viticulture, this area absolutely counts because the vineyards are somewhere around up to 4 ,000 feet in elevation. I am aware that wine is grown in all 50 states, and some of those states clearly are more famous than others for their wine. And when I started to hear about Texas wine, I assumed there must be an elevation because, you know, the the first thing people think about is that Texas is so hot. Can you talk a little bit about why that high elevation area would be the main AVA, American Viticultural Area in Texas? The high elevation helps because grapes, although they may heat up during the day, there's going to be a large shift in the temperature from day to night, and that allows the grapes to retain a lot of their acidity, which helps just with the general chemistry and winemaking and makes for better grades that extends the growing season a bit. So that is one reason why that is an area that's really important. Now, the Hill Country where you're visiting does not have that altitude and it's also a successful wine grape growing region. So there are a lot of factors that can play in, but elevation certainly does help. But you mentioned that Texas is hot, and it certainly is. But Texas is also surprisingly cold. We've had all kinds of crazy weather events as of late, but even in prior years, some of the main risks to grape growing in Texas are late spring freezes. But we also can have an early freeze in the fall. We actually had one back in 2019 on Halloween. So the grapes had not yet kind of returned to normal after the harvest, and they were really damaged by a big freeze. So we just have high highs and low lows. - Yeah, what about climate change in Texas? How is that affecting the grape growers? - It's definitely affecting the grape growers and they'll be the first to tell you, I think the farmers are always the first to know when something is different than it's always been. One thing that grape growers are doing is planting the right varieties for their particular vineyard. When the Texas wine industry got started in the 70s, they were planting a lot of grapes that did really well in California and international varieties that people were looking for, they wanted their Chardonnay, their Merlot, their Cabernet Sauvignon, et cetera. And sometimes those grapes do well in Texas and other times different grapes would be a better choice. And we can see that in wine regions around the world, like in Bordeaux, where they're now allowing grapes that have never been allowed in Bordeaux. And it's because of the changing climate. So a lot of winery owners and winemakers are looking to the warmer regions in the world to see what's doing well there. There are a number of wineries that are planting grapes from Portugal. Portugal Portugal's also very warm. A lot of grapes from the south of France do quite well in Texas. So you're not seeing quite as many cool climate grapes like the Chardonnay's and the Pinot Noirs, although there are some, but you're more and more commonly now seeing grapes that do well with the warm climate. I'm really interested in biodiversity, both of grapes and also of language. I'm really excited to see that people are experimenting with the wider variety. I think it's really interesting in terms of the climate. And also it's for me as a consumer, I think it's really fun to have so much choice. So what are some of the more unique or interesting grapes that you've been seeing planted in Texas lately? I'll mention a few that have done well here that I'm particularly excited about. On the red side, although Cabernet Sauvignon is our number one most planted grape. A few that are doing really well that I'm excited about are "Tenot" "T -A -N -N -A -T" which is a fun word in and of itself and San Jovese does pretty well here, "Muvadra" so another one from the south of France and they're actually speaking of varieties though you need to understand that Texas has tremendous varietal diversity, something like 80 or more across the state. So while in California, you kind of know, depending on what region you're in, what you might be tasting at a winery in Texas, you just really have no idea. And some wineries have just a tremendous list, even within one winery, of how many different varieties they work with. On the white side, I particularly love albarino and vermentino, although many people came to know Texas wine and what they considered maybe some of our signature grapes are on the red side, Tempranillo, and on the white side, Vianier, and those both do really well in some places, but I wouldn't say that Texas is putting all of its eggs in those particular baskets. Now, I don't want to just give all of the light to the stuff that's already doing well in the market. But if somebody wants to try some Texas wine and they're far away from Texas, maybe but in a city in a place that's lucky enough to have a wide -ranging wine list, what are some of the producers that people might see that get a chance to try? That's a really tricky question because Texans drink most Texas wine because very little of it makes it out of the state. As a producer, you have to really want to get your wines into distribution to have them go beyond the state borders because there's just not enough of it, frankly. There are certain markets where there is a presence for Texas wine. If you see anything by McPherson, McPherson sellers, that is one that you should definitely investigate. One of the two large wineries in Texas have certain distribution. One is called Yano Esticado, the other is called Becker Vineyards, but you might be surprised to just find a Texas wine from a very small producer that just has some particular relationship with a small wine shop in New York or Washington, D .C. So you might find something unexpected there. And if you do, you should try it. Is there a large DTC direct to consumer model for the Texas wineries, meaning that people can just contact the winery and have the wine shipped to them? - Absolutely, direct to consumer is huge and tourism is huge. People sell a lot of wine out of their tasting room. Wine clubs are enormous. Some wineries But then, you know, a small regional winery, say up in North Texas, where I'm located, may have 4 ,000 wine club members. So there's just a lot. When you're considering that most wineries in Texas are small to medium size, more small even than medium, there are really no large Texas wineries in the scope of large wineries in the world. So they're doing a lot of business, DTC, I guess. What are some numbers about Texas wine in general? - Well, if you consider that the top wine states, you know, California obviously outshines them all, but you think Oregon is one of them, right? Texas makes just a fraction of the wine that Oregon makes. So in terms of size, it is quite small, but it is growing. New vineyards are being planted. We have about 9 ,300 acres of grapevines, which is approximately the size of the New York Finger Lakes, just under the size of New York Finger Lakes, if that gives you an idea since you're in New York. But it's still a small industry. It's still, there's a lot of experimentation, a lot of people joining the industry who are moving in from all across the world, frankly, a lot of Texans that went to make wine somewhere else are coming back home to do it here. It's an exciting time, a ton of growth. - What's special about Texas wine? Why should people be looking at this region? - Well, it's not enough, in my opinion, to just be from Texas and to say, "Well, you have to try it from Texas." That's, in wine terms, that's not enough, right? But what's exciting is that Texas wines are winning awards and blind tastings across the world. And I love to see that because sometimes, even within our own state, people have an opinion about Texas wine that maybe they tasted some 20 years ago and they didn't like it and so it must not be good. But that is no longer the case. There is so much technology and expertise behind viticulture and winemaking in the state and then when it goes out of the state or country and wins these huge awards, I love to see it because it just gives some Enforcement to the people that are working so hard doing doing hard jobs. We have a ton of vintage variation here is another thing that you should know about Texas So we've had years that everything is perfectly beautiful and then some years that are more challenging I I say that Texas wine makers are some of the best in the world because you do have to deal With different fruit every year You're not just following a recipe because you're gonna have to be called on to to do do something new, try something new based on how the fruit looks right now we're in an extreme drought. So what does that look like for your winemaking there's just a lot a lot to think through every single year. Well, it seems like there's a lot of innovation going on. I love listening to some of the people on your podcast. What are some of your favorite interviews that you've done? Well, not all of my interviews are actually with producers, some are with, you know, vineyard managers or different people, but I can tell you a few that that I think I recommended that you might wanna check out when you're in the whole country. One of them is Adega Vino, and it's owned by a family and some brothers that manage everything, including an estate vineyard. And one of the cool things that they're doing is planting a lot of varieties that I mentioned from Portugal. So things that you may or may not have ever had the opportunity to taste anywhere in the world, Texas or Rento, who would have thunk, but they are also starting to incorporate some biodynamic principles, which I know is a particular interest of yours. And so that's one to watch. I felt like when I was recording it that it was really getting detailed about the farming and I thought maybe this is too much, but I got more positive feedback about that interview than many that I've done. I also really like talking to people who have had a part in the development of the Texas wine industry and one interview that I just recorded last week that I haven't yet, I haven't dropped yet. It's on the on the way in a few weeks is with the founders, the co -founders of Messina Hoff Winery and it's a husband and wife. And when they were first married, they decided to plant a vineyard and that was in the 70s. And all along the way, they've held leadership positions in the state organizations that try to support wine growers and grape growers. And they've just done a tremendous job. And so I love sitting down with folks that have that kind of history and just asking them a bunch of questions. So I'm excited for the future and what's to come. But I have a special place in my heart for the people that have gotten us this far. I think I found it just as I was looking for some general new wine podcast to listen to. And it really did sway me to come and visit Texas just because you seem to be having so much fun. Well, yes, I'm so glad you're coming. I just want to take a moment now at the midpoint of this interview to thank my Patreon subscribers. Alan, thank you so much for being such a big supporter of the show. I hope you're having an amazing time on that adventure in Taiwan. I want to give all my listeners a heads up that later this month there will be a really fun bonus episode of the MotoDBerry podcast that will be available only to Patreon subscribers. In order to sustain this podcast, I do need to cover costs like equipment, web hosting, software subscriptions, and other expenses. For instance, Next month I'm purchasing some new microphones for video interviews. If you've enjoyed the show and you've benefited from the local culture stories, interviews, and advice that I share on Motodibere, I encourage you to become a Patreon subscriber today to unlock that exclusive bonus content at the $5 level. It's easy to sign up at patreon .com /motodibere. You can even take a moment to head over there now. Shelly and I will be here when you get back ready to share some practical advice for Texas wine travel. If somebody like me is planning a trip to come and taste Texas wine, visit your tasting rooms, visit your vineyards, I wonder what advice you would have for us. For one thing, I think you're going to be impressed by the level of hospitality. That is one thing that Texas does so well is to welcome you into these wineries. You may well be sitting across the table from the owner, from the winemaker. A lot of them are quite small. So you do need to have a plan. You may need to have some reservations. That's kind of new after the COVID era. A lot of places did require reservations and that has continued, which I think actually gives you a better experience. So I would try to keep an open mind to what you might be tasting. You may have varieties that you're not overly familiar with you may have some blends that you would have never thought to put together But you know, this is the new world, baby We can do whatever we want and that's kind of the attitude of a lot of a lot of folks I would plan ahead for driving the wider ease There are a number of them very close together between the towns of Fredericksburg and Johnson City and then In that general vicinity, but you don't want to drive yourself. So make a plan to have somebody drive you and just enjoy, enjoy and be open -minded about the experience. I think you'll have some great wines. I will say that most wineries will have a sweet option, but not all of them do, but most of what you're gonna taste is dry. You can expect red, white, rosé, dessert, and sparkling all the above. And I just think that you'll have a lot of fun with it. I can't wait to get your impressions. And I hope that you'll come on my show and tell me what you think about your experience in Texas and the wines. - I will love that. Let's definitely set that up when I get back from this trip. I would love to let you know what I find out. Well, as you know, Shelly, from listening to my show, I have become an unexpected fan of adventurous driving. So being that I am gonna rent a car and drive around. Do you have any Texas driving advice? There are a lot of trucks on the road. Big cars is possibly a good thing, so you won't be too outmatched. And there's a lot of construction because, like I said, the growth in the area is insane. So there's a lot going on down in the Hill Country. But you will eat well and you will drink well and see some beautiful sights. I'm glad the weather is finally turning nice and so maybe you can get in a hike, get enchanted rock, or you can enjoy some of the beautiful, natural beauty of Texas. - I am really, really excited about seeing the Hill Country. Going up into the High Plains, are the wineries as kind of clustered and close together, or are they more far flung? - They're a bit more far flung. There are a few in Lubbock proper, the town of Lubbock. And then A lot of the farmers that produce, you know, the larger vineyards in Texas will have a tasting room at the vineyard. So that's definitely something to see and can be fun as well. So you may be tasting in somebody's barn, for instance, which is really back to the dirt. Love it. Oh, that sounds like a blast. I definitely need to. I like a barn. I've actually done a podcast interview in a barn or two in my time. New goals, new goals. \[Laughs\] What about in terms of Austin, are there some things going on in Austin, whether in terms of wineries or just wine culture, wine bar, restaurants of note? I mean, I think of Austin, I've played music in Austin, so it does come to mind as there's probably some good food there. There is great food in Austin. And there are two tasting rooms of note that I would mention. Of course, the wineries with vineyards are a bit further outside of the town of Austin. But within the town of Austin, I want you to look for Wine for the People is the name of the brand. And they have a tasting room that they share with a cheese shop. And Ray and make some exceptionally good wines that you can taste there. And the other is called the Austin Winery. And not only is it a full production winery, they hire people who have their own wine projects. And so you may have five or six other winemakers working on their own labels within the Austin Winery building. And they do a ton of fun events. And It's a very cool, vibey place. That sounds like a blast. What do you think are the opportunities and challenges that you see in Texas wine in general? One thing that's on my mind lately is that Texas restaurants have not done a great job at putting Texas wines on the wine list. There are exceptions, of course, and one of the exceptions is worth noting since you're going to Fredericksburg. It's a restaurant called the Cabernet grill, and they have a 100 % Texas wine list. And they have a huge wine list and excellent food. So check that out. But in general, there are a lot of these farm to table restaurants that are really into local everything except for the wine list. And I find that unfortunate. So that is a huge opportunity. I think we do need more, more vineyards being planted faster than they currently are because there are so many new wineries opening every day and we just can't Do it with the amount of grapes. I mean this year. We've had a tremendous harvest And so this year I don't anticipate a shortage of Texas grapes, but some years when there is a bad freeze or hail There might be a problem for some wineries getting all the fruit that they want Do you see versus the high plains and the hill country, do you see a lot more growers in the high plains also making their own wine? And then in the hill country, more people buying grapes and making wine or is there generally a pretty large culture of buying grapes from a grower in Texas overall? In the Hill Country, almost every winery, even if they have an estate vineyard, they also purchase grapes from elsewhere in Texas. And I should say that there are actually vineyards that aren't even in an AVA that are just in some county that may have a county designation on the label. So not everything is there. But in the high plains, you have larger vineyards, and it is true that many of those also have their own label. So they're selling maybe 80 % of their grapes, they're 90, and just keeping a small bit to make wine for their own label. - Are there other areas outside of those two AVAs that we've really talked about that even if it's tiny, might be interesting to know about? - Yes, definitely. Well, one is the Texoma region, which is the closest to me. I'm in Dallas, and along the border with Oklahoma is a region called Texoma, and it is... That's adorable, by the way. Texoma. I know. It's a lively little community of farmers and winemakers, and they're putting out some great wines as well. Now, once again, they also bring in fruit from across the state, but there are vineyards in that area too. Another region we're talking about that's not an AVA, but is the Texas Gulf Coast. And that is, as it sounds, along the coast, but it's very humid there. So they are not necessarily growing vitisfinifera. They're growing hybrids. And there are two hybrids that are particularly well known in Texas that you may come across. One is called l 'anoir, or another name for it is black Spanish. And that's a red grape. And then the other is called called Blanc Dubois and it's a white grape. Both of them are very versatile. You can have them dry, you can have them sweet, you can have them fortified. So you'll see those both pop up in a number of different ways across Texas. And then there's an area that's actually the highest elevation in all of Texas out in an AVA called Texas Davis Mountains. It's the highest elevation vineyard in the state at 5 ,600 feet of elevation and on volcanic soil. So really unique. And it's an area that people are certainly interested in. There are more vineyards going in out there, although it is quite remote. It is five hours from the Fredericksburg area and in a different direction than Lubbock. So it's really out there. There's not a lot of agriculture, but I'm very excited about the quality of the fruit that that region will produce. That sounds so interesting. It sounds like there's really a great, great variety. Yeah, for sure. There's just, there's a lot going on. I mean, I love that there's enough Texas wine for you to have your work cut out for you doing a podcast covering it all. That's, I mean, that's just in and of itself made me realize that there was something to see here. For sure. Yeah, I don't think I'm going to run out of material anytime anytime soon. One thing I heard you talk about a little bit on your podcast is the TechSOM conference. I had just associated that with some like Sommelier thing, but it sounds like there might be more to it than that. Yes. So TechSOM is a couple of different things. One part of it is a wine competition that happens in the spring. And so wineries from all around the world submit wines to be judged as part of the competition. And within that, there's a sommelier retreat. So people from around the US generally come and learn about wine. If they're studying for a test, they may get coaching around blind tasting and things like that. The other part of Tex -Som is a beverage conference and that just happened in August. Once again, people from around the world come in and it's a two and a half three day conference on all kinds of topics. I mean, just this year I went to a talk about all hybrids and we did a tasting of 12 different hybrids with instructors who are top, top, top in their field. So many of them are masters of wine, master sommeliers, or people who've written books on these topics. And it's just several days of tasting through exhibitions where different wineries or regions may set up tables. It's a professional tasting atmosphere, but also very intense seminars on cool topics of all sorts. So I couldn't recommend it highly enough. It sounds really fun. Shelly, can you do some a little bit of defining for us in terms of the difference between vidus finifera and a hybrid wine grape? Vidus finifera is the grapevine responsible for most of the most common grapevines in the world that make quality wine. So the parents of a hybrid grape are the combination of the vidus finifera species and then other species of grapes from North America. - Exactly. And they can handle often temperatures that Vitus minifera can't handle. They are perhaps more tolerant of diseases or irrigation issues. They're just a little more hearty. Some people don't consider them quite as high quality as others, but I think they can be made in ways that are high quality and quite tasty. I'm really interested to see that that's a conference topic because, you know, the American grape varieties and the hybrids of the American and European varieties in the past had been considered really inferior to the European grape species, vitus finifera. But now that there's so much going on with climate change, there's a lot of attention going to them and some of the farmers that I've talked to who have to grow hybrids because they're in a really cold area, like really far in the northeast or something have told me that it's not that they're bad grapes, they just need different attention and to have a focus on them and to really get to know them. And there are actually still even today new hybrids coming onto the market, and Texas has some of the most recent ones that have been developed at UC Davis by Dr. Andy Walker, and they're called Walker Varieties. And so they are coming into Texas slowly, but surely more in, you know, test vineyards just to kind of, we're going to play around with these. And they all have, they've all been kind of bred to do something different. It seems like there's a lot of experimentation experimentation going on in Texas? - Absolutely. - Do you see that as something that will help winemakers just in Texas or something that people might be able to study or look at from around the world and get some inspiration from what people are finding out there? - I think that there is opportunity for other regions in the world to learn from Texas. Just in the past few years, I've noticed more and more international attention on international visitors coming to Texas, both professional visitors and general tourists. Texas has joined the OIV, an international wine association. And I think that we're the only state in the United States that's a member. And so there have been these international contingents of folks coming in who are very interested in and what's going on in Texas. So it's fun to see. I've got a little bit of a funny story to tell you that I think you'll like. I was in Umbria at a wonderful leather worker's shop. The leather worker was actually from Tuscany. In fact, I'm showing off here my Italian purse. Wow. This is like little backpack purse. I got it a long time ago and it's just in perfect shape. Anyway, wonderful, talented person. And he made these belt buckles, these very Americana inspired belt buckles that like said Texas on them and had stars and stuff. But they were so small. They were just, you know, the size at the width of your belt, they weren't any bigger than that. So tell us why that's funny. Well, everything's bigger in Texas. And so obviously in Texas belt buckles are generally quite large and flashy. You may find this humorous. One of the biggest wine competitions in America, actually, is associated with a Houston livestock show and rodeo. And if you win, you get a saddle, a horse saddle. If you win pop winery, you get an actual saddle. And there's a winery in the health country. You may want to stop by. They have, I think, four or five saddles displayed in their tasting room. But if you win kind of a class championship, so your wine is the best, you know, San Jose, say $25 to $40, you get a belt buckle. So people collect, I mean, they have a million belt buckles. And if you're lucky, maybe even a saddle. Wow. I love that. That is some local culture people. That is wonderful. If I had a belt buckle, I'm not sure what I would do with it to be frank, but I'm a city girl. It's true. Do you ride horses, Shelly? No, I've been on a horse a few times in my life, but no, I live in the middle of Dallas, so I'm definitely not a regular horse rider, although they're beautiful creatures. There is a great variety of variety of Texan experiences clearly. Not everyone's running around with a, what do they call it, a 10 gallon hat? Yes, I believe they do. You know, listen, if anybody wants to, if a belt buckle comes my way, I think I'll figure out how to rock it. I grew up in a small town in western Nebraska myself, and I think I'm going to be riding some horses on this trip, it looks like, and I haven't been on a horse in a little longer than I want to say. So we'll see how that goes. Oh, I hope there's some great video footage from this. As I think Texans would say, we're fixing to capture that. Indeed. Some Texans say that. Some Texans say that. Now, a variety of Texas accents. Do you want to speak to that at all? I mean, sometimes I'll– I think– I don't know if you get this when you're outside of Texas, But I think people expect a really strong accent, but that's not the case from everybody. I mean, obviously people have all kinds of accents no matter where they're from. But can you tell where somebody's from in Texas when they show up on your door? - No, not at all. I think that most common delineation is an urban versus rural accent. My husband is from a very small town, and he is a little twangy, I must admit. But he really turns it on when he's been visiting with his parents. So if he's in his normal Dallas setting, I don't hear it as much. But when he goes back home to Henrietta, Texas, population 2600, he does sound a little bit Western, I have to admit. But yeah, that's probably the biggest thing is urban versus rural. But so many people are moving to Texas from all over. So even within Dallas, I mean, 80 % of the people I probably see on a given day are not from Texas. - Right, I love the twang. I think it's gorgeous. I'm excited to go and immerse myself in all the different types of language from wherever they're derived out there in Texas. And I'm really looking forward to it. I'm curious, what are some Texas wines that, just specific bottles that have come across your palette lately that really excited you. Oh, well, I have a soft spot for bubbles, bubbles of all sorts. And a couple that I turned to year after year are, I guess I would say there's a wide variety, right? So one of them is from Old Vine, Chenin Blanc from Texas up in the high plains, which is just beautiful. And that one in particular is from a brand called La Valentia, and I mentioned Wine for the People in Austin, and that's a project of Ray Wilson. And so I love the sparkling Chenin Blanc. On the other hand, a bright, fun, bubbly, pink sparkling wine that I love is from Tenote, and it's called the Bending Branch Frazonte Tenote. So good Frazonte, like the Italians, right? But that's another one that I would try to look for. Bending Branch is a little winery in Comfort, Texas, which is not too far from Fredericksburg. And they have their specialists in Tenote. Comfort, Texas, that sounds like a setting for a novel. And that wine sounds very comforting. And Tenote is lovely. I wanted to ask you, Have you always been a writer? Tell me about the convergence of your writing life and your wine life. You ended up writing for a wine magazine, but were you a writer who became a wine fan? What's the timeline there? Well, I'm a person who went to business school and did a little bit of writing, but more consulting and a little bit of strategy development and kind of problem solving corporations, particularly in the health care industry and in the nonprofit space. So I've done a lot of different things. I've always enjoyed writing, but I can't say that I, it was a focus of my career and I also didn't write for pleasure. So I just wasn't doing it, but it felt really good to stretch, stretch myself in that way. And when I started learning about wine, I thought, um, I want to do this in a different kind of way. I don't want to necessarily take the common road and go to work for a distributor or go to work for a winery. I thought I kind of want to chart my own course here. And so that's how it came about. I've enjoyed the writing, but sometimes I also enjoy just talking face to face with people about wine. And that's something that you don't always get with the writing. And so it's just, I like doing a little bit of a lot of different things, which is how I ended up as a consultant because you definitely do that as a consultant, a lot of variety. Yeah, I guess I'm seeing your podcast as kind of a writerly podcast, even though it's largely interview -based because of the research you do and kind of how fun it is. You got a lot of different stuff on your website. Do you want to tell us about your website? What's your website called? I keep talking about how great it is. Yeah, the website's called ThisIsTexasWine .com And you can see a page for every episode that I've put out and then also some resources. So who are the key players in the state that are focused on Texas wine growing, Texas viticulture, et cetera. There's kind of a lot there. There's some maps, as you mentioned, and some other podcasts that I think are fun references. So if you can't find it, if you have a question, you can email me. There's contact information on the, on the podcast as well. Fantastic. Well, Shelly, it's been a real pleasure talking with you today. Well, this has been fun. Thanks so much for having me. I'm delighted to have you experience Texas Wine and Hospitality in the very near future. Thank you so much, Shelly. Thanks for all your work that you do. Absolutely. You too. I'm excited to continue my exploration of everything you've got up. I feel like if I had one last question for you, it would just be if you met somebody who just said, "Texas wine," and they hadn't heard about it at all. You sort of had one little takeaway, one thing to say. What would you tell them? I'd say, "Let's sit down and do a tasting. That's the best way to learn about a place is let's open some bottles and talk about it. - Great advice. I totally agree. Thank you for listening to "Moto de Berre," wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. - I love it. And I'll just end by the way I end my podcast and say, cheers, y 'all. - Follow "Moto de Berre" on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok for even more unique and unique and encouraging drinks and language content. If you would love for the show to continue and grow, support Motodiberi on Patreon and unlock bonus episodes. Find out more at motodiberi .com, or you can also sign up for my newsletter. Music for the podcast was composed by Ursilia Prosperi and performed by the band O. You can purchase their recordings at oumusic .bandcamp .com. (singing in foreign language) ¿El brazo vayas o que permanecen dejándose llevar? ¿Un otro se engañando? ¿Se dejan separarse mismo? Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) Video version by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Mesa by Mesa ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e3-mesa-by-mesa/) [ Hangovers with Animals ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e1-trailer-hangover-sayings/) ### ▷S2E1 Detti di postumi della sbornia da tutto il mondo URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s2e1-trailer-detti-di-postumi-della-sbornia/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:19:56.000Z Stati da bestia, il mixologo imperturbabile e il pellegrinaggio del tramonto: benvenuti a stagione 2! Rose Thomas ritorna da un'estate di ricerca e avventura, dando il via alla stagione con una raccolta di detti sui postumi di una sbornia da tutto il mondo. Rose Thomas racconta il suo viaggio come cantante folk del Nebraska, barista del Minnesota, sommelier di New York e appassionata del dialetto italiano. [Ascolta in inglese / Listen in English](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-en/s2e1/trailer/hangover-sayings) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)sempre trovo qualcosa di meraviglioso in cima alla montagna. Ma, come arrivare in cima alla montagna? Nella macchina. Benvenuti a Modo di Bere Italia, podcast su bevande locali e denti locali, sono la condutrice (speaking foreign language) e oggi viaggiando in Spagna in Andalusia trovando più cose da imparare e condividere con modo di bere per vante locali e detti locali. E la tema oggi è che in Italia e ora anche in Spagna sempre trovo qualcosa di meraviglioso in cima alla montagna. ma come arrivare in cima alla montagna nella macchina. Per me, un americano non era una cosa facile di imparare come guidare in Italia e in Europa, particolarmente perché adoro di esplorare le regioni di vitticottore e eroi, le regioni dove produttore divino lavorano in un modo anziano e a volte pericoloso nei ripiti vignetti terrazzati. Per gli ascoltatori italiani penso che è una cosa normale di guidare nella montagna. Nella mia esperienza, come americana, guidare in un auto a nolleggio su strette strade di montagna in Italia e ora in spagna è stata un 'avventura nella mia esperienza l 'avventura inizia in ufficio di nolleggiare le macchine a volte trovo che mi offrono una bella macchina non so se è perché sembra un americano ma trovo che una bella macchina significa un Una macchina grande. È stata un 'azione importante di imparare a dire che ho bisogno di una macchina meno grande perché ho bisogno di visitare gli eroici vitticollori e guidare nelle città antiche. La mia prima volta in Italia era per l 'una di miele. Siamo stati finissimo visitando i produttori divino in Liguria, Piemonte e Sicilia. In Sicilia la mia prima notte sul Etna ho visto il tramonto più bello della mia vita, la luce rossa che si riversava dal vulcano come salsa e il mio marito che gentilmente ha guidato tutto in quel viaggio e io siamo arrivati in cima a Castiglione di Sicilia nella direzione spagliata su una strada a senso unico. Come estranee, stupamente, non sembravamo capire perché la gente ci suonasse il klaxon. Alla fine un signore con una sigarette e un bastone si è avvicinato alla nostra finestra e ci ha spiegato con calma che la strada che Google Maps aveva scelto per noi era in realtà una strada a senso unico. Abbiamo avuto anche un 'avventura della montagna di dolce acqua in Liguria per visitare un Maurizio Anfoso che fa un bel vino, lo sese di dolce acqua, è stata una dolce esperienza della mia vita vedere l 'antico vignetto per Agnia di Morizio e cavalcare con lui giù per la montagna dove si trova la sua cantina e su per l 'altra montagna verso i suoi vignetti, un viaggio che deve fare ogni giorno. Il giorno successivo ci è stato consigliato di visitare il paese di Apricale e ci è stato detto che la storia era stretta ma saremmo satti bene. Alla fine siamo arrivati faccia a faccia con un 'altra macchina. L 'artista ha lasciato la sua macchina e con un po' di pazienza ci ha aiutato a scendere un po' dalla montagna in modo che potesse passare, mentre aspettava dietro l 'altra macchina un 'altra immenda fila lunga di un entero club molto ciclistico. Non abbiamo visto applicale quel giorno, metti forse un giorno torneremo con un locale. Mi piace molto viaggiare da solo perché incontro molte persone meravigliose e ho molte avventure. Ma devo ammettere che quando sono arrivata la mia seconda volta in Italia, era un po' nervosa per la guida. I problemi sono iniziati prima ancora che avessi lasciato l 'ufficio di nolleggio alto. Ero riusciuto a raggiare una piccola mini -cooper, ma all 'alto mi parlava in francese. Non parlo francese. Era senso olio motore. Era fuori dal liquido lavavetri. Ho spaliato corsia al castello. Non riuscivo a capire cosa e la voce dell 'uomo in italiano era confusa dal oratore e non riuscivo a sentire le sue instruzioni. Alla fine devo ammettere che ho iniziato a piangere. Ho pianto "Non capisco !" Il braccio dal castello si sollevo. Quella mattina avevo viaggiato da Milano. Ritirato la macchina a Verona e stavo guidando Perso quella che sarebbe stata una visita meravigliosa e stimolante nella regione del Collio in Friuli e Berde in Slovenia, dove mi sarei innamorato dei vini, del d 'agribolo gialla, i vini ai oli e la storia locale. Quando mi sono resso conto che, nonostante le mie difficoltà, avrei fatto la mia prima visita solo con una ventina di minuti di ritualdo. Non eccezionale, ma non il disastro che avete avuto, ho cominciato a rilassarmi. Nella primavera del 2022 avevo un bilietto da visita che riportava semplicemente le mie informazioni di contatto e dei parole Rose Thomas Bannister, scrittrice e sommelier, mentre che la vera direzione della mia carriera nel vino era diventare una scrittrice e una educatrice. Non ero ancora dal tutto sicuro di come farlo. Ho pensato che forse avrei aperto un blog, mentre la campagna si appriva sulle felti colline del colio. Improvvissamente ho capito che la mia gioia per i detti in dialetto che mi erano starti insegnati dai produttori divino di tutta Italia era qualcosa che potevo approfondire e condividere. Mi ha colpito, il progetto si chiama modo di bere, un gioco di parole su modo di dire. Da questo momento ho conosciuto il mio scopo. Quando sono arrivata in cantina, ha detto il produttore divino, Federico, mi ha detto che sei un giornalista, ho detto di sì, sono un giornalista. Ecco il mio taguino, iniziamo l 'intervista e nasce molto di bere. Ho lavato il progetto per un anno e poi l 'ho lanciato nel febbraio 2023, un podcast, una serie di YouTube, un blog e social media. Sottotitoli a cura di QTSS di guida italiana assolutamente impegnativo. Provo la drenalina e poi una scarica di triunfo. Vi lascio una piccola risata. Mi rendo conto di questo che prima avevo paura, ma ora adoro guidare in Italia. Perché in cima a ogni monte c 'è una meravigliosa ricompensa, un monumento all 'interno. Ho assaggiato questi vini da luva Vigiliega, poi Alberto mi ha fatto assaggiare un vino che aveva più di 70 anni fatto da suo nonno. Mi ha fatto conoscere i suoi muri alla una di notte. Ammo totalmente la spagna, sono tutti in oraria da musicista. Alberto ha chiamato il mio agriturismo Per avvisarli che sarei arrivata un po' in vita, aveva la locandiera in viva voce e lo sentite dire "Questa donna americana sta viaggiando qui da sola?" Alberto ha detto "Questa donna sta bene, lei viaggia in tutto il mondo." Sono tornata giù dalla montagna al buio e ho aspettato che il cingale attraversasse la strada. Grazie alla Spagna e all 'Italia per avermi regalato queste esperienze e a tutti i nostri ascoltatori, grazie. Ovunque tu vada e qualunque cosa tu beva, ricorda di goderti la vita e di non smettere mai di imparare. Puoi seguire "Modo di bere" su TikTok, Instagram e YouTube. Puoi diventare sostenitore del programma su Patreon e accedere a più contenuti esclusivi ed educativi su www .mododibere .com. La musica è stata composta da Ercilia Prosperi per il gruppo O1\. Puoi escucharles su www .oumusic .bandcare .com La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto, registrato, e montato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Steve Silverstein ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S2E1 Hangover Sayings From Around the World URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e1-trailer-hangover-sayings/ Last updated: 2026-08-24T20:03:30.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s2e1-trailer-detti-di-postumi-della-sbornia/) Bestial states, the “girly” glass and the Sicilian sunset welcome you to Season 2 of Modo di Bere! Rose Thomas returns from a summer of research and adventure, kicking off the season with a collection of hangover sayings from around the world. Rose Thomas defines "modo di bere" and shares her journey as a Nebraskan folk singer, Minnesota bartender, New York City sommelier and Italian dialect enthusiast. **Auto-generated transcript.** (Please excuse errors.) View Transcript In Venezuela, we say "tengoratón". In Veneto, we say "gola simia dosor". In Slovenia, yes, sometimes, when you speak for the first time, you speak more. But if you speak for the first time, you speak more. "Garía nantantioso". "Venezuela, I have a mouse." "Veneto, Italy. I have a monkey now. Slovenia. I have a cat or I have a tiger. The last clip is from Piemonte in northern Italy and it means I am carrying a donkey. Here's one in English. The hair of the dog. Have you ever noticed that sayings about hangovers from all over the world seem to involve animals? Welcome back to Season 2 of Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local saves. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. As a sommelier instructor with over 12 years in the drinks industry, I've learned to find balance and mostly avoid these animal states. I've realized that what draws me to wine is that I love to learn about the world. We've got a beautiful season ahead, full of adventure stories and interviews about local drinks and local language. We'll hear from winemakers, drinkers, and thinkers from Taiwan to Texas, and from Venezuela to Veneto. I wanted to start by telling you a little bit about how moto di bere, which means "way of drinking," a pun on the Italian word for a saying, came to be. How did a girl from Nebraska end up with a podcast inspired by Italian wines and dialects? I'm a singer -songwriter, so I've been performing in bars for 20 years, but I never expected to fall in love with the art of the cocktail. Then I met a poker -faced bartender in Lincoln, Nebraska, whose drinks were like poems made out of bitters and history. I was obsessed. I got my first bartending gig at a farmer bar in an Amish town in rural Minnesota. The regulars had names like horse and rub. I learned mixology from mail -ordered books and convinced horse to try drinks from a girly glass. When I moved to New York City, I tended bar at an Italian restaurant. My friends there taught me hilarious sayings in their local dialects and introduced me to wines from their hometowns. The exuberant variety of Italian local culture swept me off my feet. I went to wine school and learned Italian. I put in seven years of work in the wine industry before I had the chance to see Italy in person. In 2019, I finally made a pilgrimage to Mount Etna and watched the sunset pour down the volcano like sauce. For me, selling wine was always about making friends and telling stories. At home in Brooklyn and wherever I go, I talk to strangers and ask them to teach me their local drinks and local sayings. The stories they tell are too fun to keep to myself. In the spring of 2023, I launched the Moto di Beri podcast, social media blog, and YouTube channel. Not all the drinks I cover are alcohol, and not all the stories I share are Italian, but Italy will always be at the heart of my fascination with local culture. The version of this podcast for Italian speakers and Italian learners is called Modo di Berre Italiano, and you can find it wherever you listen to podcasts. Do you know what drinking is saying involving an animal? Send me a DM on Instagram at Modo di Berre, or send me an email through my website, mododberre .com, where you can also sign up for my newsletter. I also share a lot of unique content from my travels on my YouTube channel, so I encourage you to give that a subscribe. I'll put the link in the show notes for this episode. Thank you so much for tuning in to Season 2 of the Moto D 'Berry podcast. I have so much to tell you. Wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Music for the podcast was composed by Arcilia Prosperi and performed by the band O. Except for the song about birds. That's me. You can hear more at RosetomasBannister .com. Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) Video version by [Giulia Àlvarez-Katz](https://www.giulia-ak.com/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Texas Wine?! ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e2-texas-wine-with-shelly-wilfong/) [ Wine Tour Driving 😱 ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e12-wine-tour-driving/) ### ▷S1E12 Viticoltura eroica, guida eroica: Rose Thomas visita le cantine di montagna URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e12-guidare-nella-montagna/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:21:06.000Z Rose Thomas racconta le sue avventure da americana guidando in montagna in italia e spagna per visitare gli eroici viticoltori, a cominciare dagli uffici di autonoleggio che cercano sempre di venderle un'auto troppo grossa. l'ispirazione per il nome e il concetto di Modo di Bere è venuta a lei mentre guidava in Friuli. Registrato durante il suo recente viaggio in Spagna, condivide questo episodio la storia dell'incontro con i muli all'una del mattino e un elenco de cantine da visitare nelle montagne dell'Andalusia. [Purulio](https://www.instagram.com/vino%5Fde%5Fpurulio/?hl=en&ref=mododibere.com) [Los Cautivos](https://www.instagram.com/granadafoodco/?ref=mododibere.com) [Bodega Cauzón](https://www.selectionsdelavina.com/producers/bodega-cauzon?ref=mododibere.com) [García de Verdevique](http://www.bodegasgarciadeverdevique.com/?ref=mododibere.com) [Barranco Oscuro](https://www.selectionsdelavina.com/producers/barranco-oscuro?ref=mododibere.com) [Alqueria de Morayma](http://www.alqueriamorayma.com/en/?ref=mododibere.com) [F. Schatz](https://f-schatz.com/web/en/nosotros/?ref=mododibere.com) [Ka\*Manciné ](http://www.kamancine.it/?ref=mododibere.com)(Cantina ligure di Roberta Repaci e Maurizio Anfosso) [Ascolta in inglese / Listen in English](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-en/s1e12/wine-tour-driving) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)sempre trovo qualcosa di meraviglioso in cima alla montagna. Ma, come arrivare in cima alla montagna? Nella macchina. Benvenuti a Modo di Bere Italia, podcast su bevande locali e denti locali, sono la condutrice (speaking foreign language) e oggi viaggiando in Spagna in Andalusia trovando più cose da imparare e condividere con modo di bere per vante locali e detti locali. E la tema oggi è che in Italia e ora anche in Spagna sempre trovo qualcosa di meraviglioso in cima alla montagna. ma come arrivare in cima alla montagna nella macchina. Per me, un americano non era una cosa facile di imparare come guidare in Italia e in Europa, particolarmente perché adoro di esplorare le regioni di vitticottore e eroi, le regioni dove produttore divino lavorano in un modo anziano e a volte pericoloso nei ripiti vignetti terrazzati. Per gli ascoltatori italiani penso che è una cosa normale di guidare nella montagna. Nella mia esperienza, come americana, guidare in un auto a nolleggio su strette strade di montagna in Italia e ora in spagna è stata un 'avventura nella mia esperienza l 'avventura inizia in ufficio di nolleggiare le macchine a volte trovo che mi offrono una bella macchina non so se è perché sembra un americano ma trovo che una bella macchina significa un Una macchina grande. È stata un 'azione importante di imparare a dire che ho bisogno di una macchina meno grande perché ho bisogno di visitare gli eroici vitticollori e guidare nelle città antiche. La mia prima volta in Italia era per l 'una di miele. Siamo stati finissimo visitando i produttori divino in Liguria, Piemonte e Sicilia. In Sicilia la mia prima notte sul Etna ho visto il tramonto più bello della mia vita, la luce rossa che si riversava dal vulcano come salsa e il mio marito che gentilmente ha guidato tutto in quel viaggio e io siamo arrivati in cima a Castiglione di Sicilia nella direzione spagliata su una strada a senso unico. Come estranee, stupamente, non sembravamo capire perché la gente ci suonasse il klaxon. Alla fine un signore con una sigarette e un bastone si è avvicinato alla nostra finestra e ci ha spiegato con calma che la strada che Google Maps aveva scelto per noi era in realtà una strada a senso unico. Abbiamo avuto anche un 'avventura della montagna di dolce acqua in Liguria per visitare un Maurizio Anfoso che fa un bel vino, lo sese di dolce acqua, è stata una dolce esperienza della mia vita vedere l 'antico vignetto per Agnia di Morizio e cavalcare con lui giù per la montagna dove si trova la sua cantina e su per l 'altra montagna verso i suoi vignetti, un viaggio che deve fare ogni giorno. Il giorno successivo ci è stato consigliato di visitare il paese di Apricale e ci è stato detto che la storia era stretta ma saremmo satti bene. Alla fine siamo arrivati faccia a faccia con un 'altra macchina. L 'artista ha lasciato la sua macchina e con un po' di pazienza ci ha aiutato a scendere un po' dalla montagna in modo che potesse passare, mentre aspettava dietro l 'altra macchina un 'altra immenda fila lunga di un entero club molto ciclistico. Non abbiamo visto applicale quel giorno, metti forse un giorno torneremo con un locale. Mi piace molto viaggiare da solo perché incontro molte persone meravigliose e ho molte avventure. Ma devo ammettere che quando sono arrivata la mia seconda volta in Italia, era un po' nervosa per la guida. I problemi sono iniziati prima ancora che avessi lasciato l 'ufficio di nolleggio alto. Ero riusciuto a raggiare una piccola mini -cooper, ma all 'alto mi parlava in francese. Non parlo francese. Era senso olio motore. Era fuori dal liquido lavavetri. Ho spaliato corsia al castello. Non riuscivo a capire cosa e la voce dell 'uomo in italiano era confusa dal oratore e non riuscivo a sentire le sue instruzioni. Alla fine devo ammettere che ho iniziato a piangere. Ho pianto "Non capisco !" Il braccio dal castello si sollevo. Quella mattina avevo viaggiato da Milano. Ritirato la macchina a Verona e stavo guidando Perso quella che sarebbe stata una visita meravigliosa e stimolante nella regione del Collio in Friuli e Berde in Slovenia, dove mi sarei innamorato dei vini, del d 'agribolo gialla, i vini ai oli e la storia locale. Quando mi sono resso conto che, nonostante le mie difficoltà, avrei fatto la mia prima visita solo con una ventina di minuti di ritualdo. Non eccezionale, ma non il disastro che avete avuto, ho cominciato a rilassarmi. Nella primavera del 2022 avevo un bilietto da visita che riportava semplicemente le mie informazioni di contatto e dei parole Rose Thomas Bannister, scrittrice e sommelier, mentre che la vera direzione della mia carriera nel vino era diventare una scrittrice e una educatrice. Non ero ancora dal tutto sicuro di come farlo. Ho pensato che forse avrei aperto un blog, mentre la campagna si appriva sulle felti colline del colio. Improvvissamente ho capito che la mia gioia per i detti in dialetto che mi erano starti insegnati dai produttori divino di tutta Italia era qualcosa che potevo approfondire e condividere. Mi ha colpito, il progetto si chiama modo di bere, un gioco di parole su modo di dire. Da questo momento ho conosciuto il mio scopo. Quando sono arrivata in cantina, ha detto il produttore divino, Federico, mi ha detto che sei un giornalista, ho detto di sì, sono un giornalista. Ecco il mio taguino, iniziamo l 'intervista e nasce molto di bere. Ho lavato il progetto per un anno e poi l 'ho lanciato nel febbraio 2023, un podcast, una serie di YouTube, un blog e social media. Sottotitoli a cura di QTSS di guida italiana assolutamente impegnativo. Provo la drenalina e poi una scarica di triunfo. Vi lascio una piccola risata. Mi rendo conto di questo che prima avevo paura, ma ora adoro guidare in Italia. Perché in cima a ogni monte c 'è una meravigliosa ricompensa, un monumento all 'interno. Ho assaggiato questi vini da luva Vigiliega, poi Alberto mi ha fatto assaggiare un vino che aveva più di 70 anni fatto da suo nonno. Mi ha fatto conoscere i suoi muri alla una di notte. Ammo totalmente la spagna, sono tutti in oraria da musicista. Alberto ha chiamato il mio agriturismo Per avvisarli che sarei arrivata un po' in vita, aveva la locandiera in viva voce e lo sentite dire "Questa donna americana sta viaggiando qui da sola?" Alberto ha detto "Questa donna sta bene, lei viaggia in tutto il mondo." Sono tornata giù dalla montagna al buio e ho aspettato che il cingale attraversasse la strada. Grazie alla Spagna e all 'Italia per avermi regalato queste esperienze e a tutti i nostri ascoltatori, grazie. Ovunque tu vada e qualunque cosa tu beva, ricorda di goderti la vita e di non smettere mai di imparare. Puoi seguire "Modo di bere" su TikTok, Instagram e YouTube. Puoi diventare sostenitore del programma su Patreon e accedere a più contenuti esclusivi ed educativi su www .mododibere .com. La musica è stata composta da Ercilia Prosperi per il gruppo O1\. Puoi escucharles su www .oumusic .bandcare .com La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto, registrato, e montato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Steve Silverstein ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S1E12 The Raw Rush of Survival: Wine Tour Driving with Rose Thomas URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e12-wine-tour-driving/ Last updated: 2026-08-24T19:58:16.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-it/s1e12/rose-thomas-bannister-guidare) On the road for Modo di Bere, Rose Thomas records the story of how she overcame her trepidation about driving in Italy and Spain and embraced the thrill of the wine tour driving that brings her such adventures as meeting mules at midnight on a mountaintop in the Sierra Nevadas. She shares the elements of winery tours, lessons learned when renting cars overseas, and how falling in love with wine is to fall in love with the landscape. Towards the end, Rose Thomas shares the story behind the name "modo di bere," literally, way of drinking, a pun on the Italian word for a saying. Here are the wineries Rose Thomas mentions visiting in Andalucía: [Purulio](https://www.instagram.com/vino%5Fde%5Fpurulio/?hl=en&ref=mododibere.com) [Los Cautivos](https://www.instagram.com/granadafoodco/?ref=mododibere.com) [Bodega Cauzón](https://www.selectionsdelavina.com/producers/bodega-cauzon?ref=mododibere.com) [García de Verdevique](http://www.bodegasgarciadeverdevique.com/?ref=mododibere.com) [Barranco Oscuro](https://www.selectionsdelavina.com/producers/barranco-oscuro?ref=mododibere.com) [Alqueria de Morayma](http://www.alqueriamorayma.com/en/?ref=mododibere.com) [F. Schatz](https://f-schatz.com/web/en/nosotros/?ref=mododibere.com) Maurizio Anfosso and Roberta Repaci drive down the mountainside from their winery and up the next mountain to tend their ancient vines in the Dolceacqua area of Liguria in Italy: [Ka\*Manciné](http://www.kamancine.it/?ref=mododibere.com) **Auto-generated transcript.** (Please excuse errors.) View Transcript absolutely breathtaking, and lots of narrow tight squeezes through little towns on tiny roads, lots of really sharp turns, and really really steep long tunnels. I found actually that I get a little bit of a rush out of it. Welcome to Modo di Bere podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. I'm recording this episode from Granada in southern Spain and this is a special episode of Modo di Bere. I'm on the road and I'm going to share some of my travel experiences. You might remember episode six where I shared some wine fair wisdom. This episode I'm going to be talking about wine tours. I am here in Spain visiting several different wineries around the areas of the Sierra Nevadas all within about two to two or three hours driving distance from Granada. There's a few different pockets of local wine that I find really really interesting. I'm also exploring the local drinks of the city of Granada. I'm also going to be in the other part of Andalusia, on the west side, where they make fortified wines in a number of different styles. And I'm going to be sharing a lot of information with listeners in the coming weeks. And I want to make sure that you know that it's not just the podcast for ModoDB. There's also a YouTube channel, also articles on the ModoDB website. There's also social media on Instagram. And all of this is unique educational content about local drinks and local sayings presented as much as possible in English and Italian and also a little bit in Spanish, especially after this adventure that I've been on. So stay tuned for all of that. If you haven't checked out the YouTube channel, for instance, if you haven't followed Mododibere on Instagram, it's all under Mododibere and we're on TikTok as well and on Facebook. And you can get on there and follow us. You can also go to the Modo di Bere website at mododberry .com. That's m -o -d -o -d -i -b -e -r -e .com. And sign up for the Modo di Bere newsletter. And I will be able to update you when I've published some of the videos and some of the interviews from this wine trip that I'm doing. But since I'm on the road today, I thought that I would share with you some adventures that I've been having specifically while driving in Italy and Spain on a wine tour. This is the story about why it was worth it to do something that scared me a little bit to have to access this adventure, to take the trouble, to find out how to do it. Most recently it was worth it here in the Sierra Nevadas. I wanted to give you a little list of the winemakers that I visited. I'm gonna be sharing more content about their work as soon as possible, but they are from the region of Guadix, about a two -hour drive to the slightly north east of the town of Granada, Purulio, Los Cartivos, and bodegas calzón. Those were the winemakers I visited in that little pocket of Andalucía. Then to the southeast of Granada I was able to visit in the Alpujadas, García de Verdevique, Barranco Oscuro, and Alquería de Moriama. I also went over to the southwest about two hours from Granada again as my hub on these adventures to a region outside of Malaga in the Sierras de Malaga and I visited there a wonderful biodynamic producer called F. Schatz, which is a German name but with a history that runs through southern Spain and into Germany and back into coming back around again to Italy, all to Wadi Jay, interesting story of his family. And I visited four winemakers in one day, which is a little ambitious. You've got to be really organized to make that work out. And we ended up having such a great time with the three prior winemakers. This was in the Guadix area around the town of Guadix. I ended up driving then down towards the Alpujadas, this was up into these beautiful steep mountains, these massive massive panoramas opening up at every turn. The curves and curves and curves as I as I twisted up the mountain, my suitcase sliding back and forth in the trunk, I ended up arriving kind of late at about 10 o 'clock. The sun had gone down and I was taking the final road up the mountain. It was a pretty nice paved road but small. No real guardrails and in the dark it was kind of physically intimidating to be in this space that was just winding. It reminded me of if you've ever played the video game Mario Kart about the rainbow road where there's just a road and nothing else, especially as this experience went on over time and it just seemed to be this endless mountain, so quiet, so dark, no other cars around, thank goodness, and I think I saw one car on that mountain. I slowly had this kind of transformative psychedelic driving experience made it to the top of the hill and visited this lovely family, Alberto the son, Antonio the father, winemakers from from many generations, highest elevation in Alpujara, I believe, who are making wine from really interesting indigenous grapes like Vihiriaga. Farming with mules, they're 130 year old vines. So cool. I didn't get to visit because it was very dark. The road changed into a dirt road and was very bumpy. I thought, "Oh my goodness, I'm really, really earning this. I was enjoying it because I've now come to the point where I actually find this to be quite thrilling. I enjoy these driving experiences." But yeah, we ended up meeting, it ended up tasted all their wines, spitting of course, which I just want to make sure it doesn't go without saying. If you're driving on a wine tour, oh my god, there's wine tours where you can take public transportation and get tipsy, and if you want to do your wine tours that way, you might not learn as much, but if you want to do that for a form of enjoyment, I don't judge you, but you must absolutely spit. Driving at these kinds of tours, of course. You can hear more about spitting and wine tasting in episode six. Now, what do I mean by a wine tour? There are different types of winery tours which are available to anybody who loves wine, you can go and visit the winery and taste the wines. There are a lot of small farmers all over the world who welcome visits from wine industry people but also from wine lovers. Some of them have places to stay but a lot of them will offer tours if you just get in touch. You don't have to be a sommelier, you don't have to be an importer. A lot of people really want to give tours of their winery and just to spread the word about what they do. And it's a very fun way to travel. I've really, really enjoyed it. Doing this kind of agricultural adventure, viticultural adventure, I should say. There are some different types of winery tours in places where wine tourism is a big thing. Places like Napa, California, the region of Andalusia in Pez, San Nicar de Guatemala, where they make those fortified wines known collectively by English speakers at least as sherry, but those places in Tuscany as well, you will sometimes have to pay to go on the winery tour. It's usually nothing crazy. Just covers the cost of the tour and the taste of the wines that you get. And so those are options, but a lot of times the benefit to the person, especially smaller farmers, in giving a tour is for spreading the word about their products and also you can buy some bottles of wine to take with you at the end of the tour. You might have to pay, you might not have to pay, some are more commercial, some are more casual, but usually whatever the wine tour there are three different elements. Sometimes you won't do all three, but the three elements are the winery tour. So you go into the winery, you see the barrels where they aged the wine, you see the vessels where they aged the wine. They talk to you about the process. If you're really lucky, they might let you taste some of the wine directly from the tank that's still in development, which is very educational and fun to do. You can just learn a lot and see where the wine is made. Then you'd usually proceed into the tasting room or sometimes if it's a small place you'll just swirl a glass while you're standing up in the air talking to this the small farmer and tasting their wines and they might have a little tiny table in there and it's just very casual and some people have a really beautiful tasting room where they can bring guests and in a scenic scenic setting to taste the wines and enjoy maybe some local snacks. Sometimes people give you snacks, sometimes they don't. The third element which you do sometimes is to visit the vineyards, which is really fun. I love visiting vineyards. I think it's so interesting. I love seeing the different types of grapes. I love seeing the different kinds of training systems of trellising the grapes and the different of rocks. I like to to touch those rocks and see what they're all about and to see the winemakers in their fields where really a lot of winemakers say that's where the wine is made. It's in the way that the grapes are grown before anything happens in the cellar. So a lot of times those will be kind of rough roads and so you'll you'll ride perhaps with the winemaker if it's not right by the winery and they'll take you with them to, you know, see the winery, you'll be in their car, they'll do their truck, their Jeep, whatever, and they'll drive you and show you a couple vineyards, maybe as they're driving by, and you'll usually get out, walk around a little bit, feel the air, see the vines, very fun, I love doing vineyard tours. Sometimes it's just a tour of the winery and a tasting that this whole thing kind of takes a lot of time. Some people don't really offer as much of it in your tour, but you will most likely at least taste the wine. So usually you'll do a winery tour and a tasting, but at least a tasting. So those are the elements of winery tour visits. A lot of you might know this already if that's a fun thing that you do is to visit wineries, but the reason that I'm talking about wine tours today, is I tend to take a wine tour in a more rural area with smaller farmers and try to visit several of them in one day. To do that, I was advised when I first started doing this in Italy and a little bit in Spain, that you have to rent a car. You have to rent a car and drive. And I think it's really fun in other countries to figure out public transportation. That makes me feel intrepid, but after my first winery visiting trip in Italy, I realized it's really true. While these winemakers find it worth it to give people tours, they really don't have time to come and pick you up from the bus station. We're talking about stuff that's usually in the country or in a really small town and would add an extra hour and winemakers are really busy. They're farmers, they're making wine, there's certain times of the year or two where it's really busy for them. So you really wanna just figure out how to pull up on time and drive yourself. I was hoping in some areas that I would be able to put the pieces together with taxis, but that's just too expensive in most cases. I've found in these two countries in Europe where I've done a lot of winery visits. So there you are. You're going to be, if you're not from Spain or Italy, driving around, renting a car in another country that's new to you. I have a little bit of advice for when you rent that car. I've had this happen a couple of times where they say, I don't know if it's because I'm an American and there's an assumption that I'll like big things or everybody thinks everybody likes big cars or maybe Because it's not as common to have automatic transmissions in Europe. There's a lot more manual transmissions. I haven't had trouble renting an automatic. It's usually been available to me in recent years. In the past I've heard that you really want to learn how to drive a stick. I would love to learn. I don't know how. It's been on my list for a while, partly for this reason. I haven't had any trouble running on an automatic, but I have had the experience where they where they say, "Oh, I'm gonna get you a great car. I'm gonna get you a nice car." You're jet lagged, you're picking up your car right after getting off the plane, usually from the airport, and I have forgotten to question what is meant by nice? I fill out all this paperwork, I finally get out and get my car and I see the car and I think, "Oh, nice meant big." Well, big is not what you want when you're driving in Italy in Spain because if you're visiting the kind of wineries that I tend to like to visit there can be some really narrow, really steep roads and even passageways through towns where you really have to squeeze through. It's pretty harrowing and sometimes almost nearly impossible. I've never actually gotten stuck. That's actually not true. There was one story where I turned around and went back that I'll tell you in a second. So try not to get a big car. Try to insist, tell them that you're going to be driving through some narrow tight areas and make sure that you end up with the model that you had in mind, even if you're feeling jet -legged. Make sure to remember to ask that question. I have ended up more than once with a bigger car than I really needed. And it's been more nerve racking than it needed to be. For instance, in the recent trip that I took to Veltalina in northern Italy in the Alps, right near the border with Switzerland, absolutely breathtaking and lots of narrow tight squeezes through little towns on tiny roads, lots of really sharp turns, and really really steep long tunnels, I found actually, that I get a little bit of a rush out of it. That's why this episode is called The Raw Rush of Survival. I have found that in some of these situations that I as an American driver who's new to these kinds of roads for the most part find really, really absurd and like kind of a test to be able to succeed in some of these tight squeeze situations, tight squeeze, tight turn situations. And I find this, this really big feeling of suspense. And then when I succeed to make it through without, you know, damage to the car, everybody gets through and everything's fine. I find this actual kind of burst of euphoria. And I, as companions who've traveled with me on wine, to her trips can attest. I find myself letting out a little chuckle of triumph. It's kind of a release of the tension and of the feeling of joy that I have of thinking, "Oh, I did it. I made it through. I made it around that corner. I made it around that hairpin turn. I made it around that little gap." So I have actually found, you know, if this sort of sounds intimidating to you, it certainly did to me as well, but I have actually found it really, really fun. So don't be scared, but be prepared. Another element that you're gonna wanna ask about before you ever get to the rental car that I have recently discovered after having gone to Europe and rented cars for this purpose for years, I just found out that you're actually supposed to in a lot of European countries having something called an international driving license. In addition to your regular license, will the rental car company tell you that this exists? No. You somehow just have to know about it. And when I recently figured this out, I came back and asked the rental car company and the woman who worked there said she herself had never heard of this and didn't know anything about it. It turns out that if you do get pulled over, Which of course you want to just try not to do but if you do get pulled over I learned in Spain It's this is a funny story, but I I found That they can charge you a 500 euro fine So so say you get a traffic ticket of some kind They'll add a 500 a 500 euro fee. I Found this astonishing that this would not become in knowledge. Maybe it's just not that often enforced, but I would not want to be in the position to take that risk. And it turns out that you just go to your AAA office, your local AAA office, you can also do this by mail. Within six months of your trip, you bring two passport photos and your U .S. driver's license. This is advice for American listeners. You pay $20, and then they give you this document, and then you're fine, and you're not going to have to pay 500 euros if something happens. And I now know this, so I'm sharing this knowledge in case other people don't know it. I didn't know it. It feels kind of wild that I didn't know. But there you go. If you're already traveling, it's kind of too late, because you have to send your mail -in request. You can also do the mail -in request. Do your mail -in request to this office in Florida and it might take five to seven weeks, so too bad. I guess you'll just have to be really, really, really careful, which of course you should be anyway, but who wants to take that risk? So there you go, fun fact that I just learned. I just learned it because I was visiting a winemaker late at night in Spain, which is wonderful. I love the night owl culture here. It's just fantastic. I feel like, you know, you can eat dinner, it could be midnight, you can still be eating dinner. It almost feels the afternoon doesn't turn into the evening when it gets dark, but maybe when it hits midnight, which I recently discovered, I was staying at a hotel really close to the last winery that I visited. It was pretty late. It was really dark, it was really quiet, and I just could not find the interest to this hotel. So I'm kind of driving back and forth slowly and trying to turn around. And there's some policemen there. They must have been incredibly bored in this quiet, sleepy place. And so they motioned me over and said, why are you driving like that? And I said, I'm really sorry, I'm lost. Could you help me find this thing? And they asked for my license. And then they asked for this international driving license, informed me of its existence, and said that they weren't going to give me a 500 euro fine. That was really nice to have not happen. And then they graciously showed me the entrance, the hard to find entrance in this dark place. And once I got into the hotel, right when I pulled up, the clock struck midnight, and the right billboard hotel sign on the road decided to be lit at midnight and I thought, "Oh, that would have been helpful." But it also kind of tickled me that, you know, it was like, "Oh, it's midnight, maybe we'll turn the light on." Because, you know, that's kind of when I start to think it's night because I like to stay up late. So everything was fine, but if this is helpful information to anybody, I want to make sure you know about it. But you can find out in your own country where you might be able to get this document just in case. I was going to tell you the story also about the time that I did have to turn all the way around. I was in Dulce Aqua where they make Dulce Aqua. Sorry I'm in Spain my seas changed. Dulce Aqua which is a region near the French border the Italian Riviera they make a wine called "Rossesse di Dolce Acqua" from the Rossesse grape. It's a light red. I think it's delightful. Maurizio Anfoso is the producer that I visited. I got to see a very old vineyard of his. He's just delightful. He suggested after this the steep mountain drive that we done to get to the vineyard to the winery that we visit the town of Apricale which someone else had recommended to us as well. It sounded really quite nice at the very top of this mountain. And, you know, they mentioned pretty casually, okay, it's a tight, it's a narrow road. And we said, okay, well, we've done some kind of interesting driving in Italy, it should be fine. So we, it was really a narrow road where two, it was not possible for two cars to pass. And of course, there's a drop off off the side of the mountain. So what happens? You come face to face with another car. And one of you, probably the person below, has to back down the mountain until there's a little area where you can pass. So it was just a little nerve wracking because the road was so tight. My husband was driving and trying to be kind of polite and he got a little too close to the wall. The other driver leapt out and said, "Hey, hey, you're gonna break your car, stop." And slowly directed us to slowly, slowly back down the hill. While this whole thing was happening, behind the other driver waiting, I have to say quite patiently and graciously, was an entire motorcycle club. So I love this thing in Italy where everybody runs around in a big long line of motorbikes. So there were, I don't know how many, wrapped all the way around the mountain. This motorcycle club, patiently waiting for this entire thing to happen, which felt like it took forever. It might have just been a few minutes, but it was at least like 10 minutes. At this point, we decided we would come back with a local or possibly a donkey and just, you know, forget it. So we didn't actually, we actually abandoned our plan to visit Apricoli in that day. I mean, it was a funny memory. Everything was fine. But, you know, that's the kind of situation that I found myself in. \[Music\] On this trip I have been driving in less narrow roads but very steep and very winding. in the Sierra Nevadas, in the mountains here, I have to tell you, I've just been really moved and feel very, very lucky that I get to see such breathtaking landscapes. There's so many things in wine that feel like a bonus. I never knew I was gonna become a geology nerd, for instance, this week just feeling so lucky as each new landscape, every bend that I would drive around, see a whole set of new colors, amazing shapes, incredible panoramic view after panoramic view. And I was thinking about this idea of getting to see these enjoyable landscapes as sort of a side effect of my wine career and my love of wine. And then it occurred to me that it's actually The point, to fall in love with the land, the wine is made from the land. And the wine, it was, everything's connected. Nothing is a side effect in wine. It's all interconnected. That's this concept of terroir and that's this concept of regionality that is really what's being expressed and explored in this podcast, both with language and with wine, which I think is all connected to so specifically the landscapes that I seem to get drawn to and before you think oh my gosh I'm never gonna do a wine tour if that's what's involved that sounds like a lot of work uh for people who aren't from Italy and Spain who aren't used to this kind of driving you don't have to go up this mountain side there's plenty of hilly a little just little hilly regions that you can visit while I had some tight kind of old town driving experiences and wish I had a smaller car in some towns in Italy, you can go to Tuscany, you can go to Piemonte, and it's just rolling hills, okay. It's nice big roads, usually rolling hills, pretty easy to navigate. But the thing that I find myself drawn to is something that in wine is sometimes referred to as heroic viticulture and these are wine regions where the wine is grown, the grapes are grown, straight up the mountain side and steep, steep terraces. It's very traditional, old tradition that people are keeping alive with an enormous amount of physical labor. Everything has to be worked by hand, but not just worked by hands, but on this really steep slope. The winemaker that I mentioned, Maurizio Hanfoso from Dolce Aqua, actually lives on one mountain side and every day when he visits his vineyards, he has to drive down the mountain and up the next mountain to tend to his vines. I figure that if all I have to deal with is a little bit of a rush when I squeeze through a tight space and manage not to scratch my rental car, that these people who devote their lives to making sure that this art of farming and these wines that we get to drink are not lost, not lost to history, all the effort and the work that and the danger that they endure to be able to continue this for the world, continue this culture for the world, the least I can do is go visit them plus I want to see it. I think it sounds cool. And In terms of what I said before, don't be scared. Be prepared. After seeing my husband who drove on, he did all the driving on our first Italian trip that we took together on our honeymoon. Actually, I spent my whole honeymoon in Italy not seeing a single museum. We just did an agricultural tour. It was a really, really fun way to travel. I was really nervous the first time that it was my turn to drive in I came here by myself and I was going to do some driving and I was quite nervous about it. The first day I had some more rental car drama. The car was small, thankfully, but was talking to me in French, which I don't speak. I was having trouble changing the settings. I was having trouble starting car, feeling very old, not understanding about it, not having a key. I live in New York City. I'm a Midwestern raised person who's done a ton of driving, including as a touring musician. I've done a lot of driving, I'm a good driver, but I was nervous about driving in Italy. It felt like every little thing went wrong, the car was out of washer fluid, the car was out of oil. I had to stop and buy those things in Italian and people didn't want to seem to, they kept passing the American off to the next mechanic and It took a lot longer than I thought I ended up having to get the washer fluid and the engine oil from the winemakers that I was visiting, which is great. They've got a lot of farm equipment there ready to help me out. I got through it, but their experience is like driving into the wrong toll gate because the signs are unfamiliar, not being able to figure out what to do or how to get to the right toll gate, hearing a crackly voice, speaking Italian in an inaudible fashion, coming through the speaker and trying to communicate with this inaudible voice until I finally break down, start crying and wail, no capito, until the arm of the toll gate goes up and just lets me through. Maybe I had to pay the whole fare at the end as if I'd driven the whole road but at least I was able to get through so thanks for raising the bar for me. So on that journey I was driving from Milan all the way to the region of Colio in northeastern Italy and Friuli which is on the Slovenian border and actually is a shared wine region cut in half by that border which is something I want to talk a lot more about on this podcast at some point soon. The interesting thing, and the reason I'm telling this story, is I wanted to tell you about the name of the podcast, Modo di Berre. You might not know that it is a pun, so Modo di Dire in Italian is the word for a saying, and it means way of saying. "Moto di bere" is my pun, my Italian pun, it means way of drinking. I hope to an Italian ear this phrase evokes a combination of these two topics, drinking, drinks, and sayings. The moment when I came up with this idea was on this long drive I had had this kind of test of my metal, as we would say, and, you know, just little things, just little things happened. Everything was fine, but it was still very stressful for me, and I was very nervous. When I was on the road and I realized I was going to get to my winemaker only a little bit late, I started to relax, the landscape really opened up and these beautiful Green Hills appeared and I, my body relaxed, I felt at ease, I felt that sense of accomplishment, that raw rush of survival. And at that moment, I knew I wanted to get into wine writing and wine education after my prior career, working in the wine business, largely in the Italian wine and business in New work for 10 years and previously in somewhat overlapping, I started in cocktails before that. So I'm hoping to talk a lot more about cocktails with this project as well. I'd worked in restaurants, I'd worked in retail, I'd worked for an importer. My favorite job in all of those fields was the times that I would get to do writing and particularly when I would get to interview the winemakers and really dig in and help to to find the words to share their stories. I was feeling like maybe I'll have a little blog. There are a lot of wine blogs out there. So why do we need another one? And what would my creative educational wine project look like? The way that I learned Italian, which I've talked about a little bit on this podcast, was through visiting with Italian wine producers, often on sales trips. So they would come and visit me when I was a sales rep. We would spend the whole day together and they would teach me, as I've explained, not just technically useful Italian like "where is the train station?" but these sayings from their local dialects. I became enchanted and fascinated and obsessed with how Italy has so many local dialects, sometimes mutually unintelligible from one town to the next. Everybody speaks Italian -Italian, but a lot of people still speak these local dialects and also share these really charming, really fun sayings in the local dialects and I was starting to make some connections as I was on this drive relaxing. I was thinking about how I'd been creating this of sayings in a different Italian dialects. Usually scribbled at the margins of my notebook, trying to commit them to memory, sharing them with people when I would meet people from that region. Oh, I know how to say this. And I realized suddenly that I could share that with people as well. Not just interview people, not just interview wine producers and wine people, but I could also talk about language. and I realized I had these two passions and that I could not just that I could bring them together because they were two things that I like and two things that I found interesting but because I do feel that they're connected I had this little flash of romantic inspiration that the local language could be considered or at least at least be compared to this thing that's called terroir, which is the expression of regionality, the communication of culture in one location where all the factors that go together, human and nature and a myriad of different factors come together in this glass of wine that could not taste like that if it was from anywhere else. And that's what's often referred to in wine with the French term terroir. I realized that I wanted to talk also about the terroir of language or about local language as part of the terroir and that the best way to talk about these things I discovered was through sayings, through sayings, proverbs, idiomatic phrases, slang, tongue twisters, greetings, that accents these kinds of little pieces of language. And I was finding the same kinds of stories about culture through these sayings as I was finding through the glass of wine. And I realized in one second, the moment when this idea was born, I said to myself out loud in the car, "Oh, it's called 'Moto de Barré.' This was March of 2022\. I had come to Italy at that point with a business card that just said, "Writer, some will get." I was kind of planning my next move. And the person who had set up my visits for me after I'd handed him this business card at a dinner where we met, which is Federico Cleva, thank you Federico from Colio who invited me to come and visit the Colio region in Italy, the Berda region in Slovenia. He had told everyone. I was about to discover that I was a journalist and really I had been doing that kind of work for a lot of a long time and you know taking so many notes in my little notebook and I showed up with my little notebook to do my first interview, and the winemaker said, "Oh, Federico tells me you're a journalist." He didn't know that I had just decided to make that official ten minutes before in the car, but I said, "Yes, I am a journalist. Here's my notebook. Let's start the interview." And that was the beginning of the MotoDBerry project. I worked on it for a full year before the moment was possible to launch the project through the podcast, through articles that I'm writing on my blog, through the YouTube channel and through the social media accounts, all of these different unique pieces of content that tie together but are also unique. And I spent that entire year working on the infrastructure, doing wine trips, taking interviews and that I'm still processing and working on publishing for all of you to enjoy. And again, you don't have to be a wine professional to go and tour wineries. I'm not going to say that it doesn't open certain doors, maybe make some visits at places that really don't normally have visitors, but there are really so many options for people who are passionate about wine and taste these wines at the at the vineyard and at the winery. I have found it to just be a beautiful way to travel and again make that connection with the land. I just want to close by saying that of course there is more than one way to do this and I know in Italy for certain there are so many wonderful tour companies where they will make all the connections for for you, they will select wonderful wineries for you to visit in a range for transportation so you don't have to drive a single kilometer. You can also always take a friend or a colleague with you who like me has come to enjoy some more interesting driving experiences. I've found it to really be kind of a thrill. And at the end of the day, it opens the door. I just want to encourage anyone who is a little trepidatious like I was when I first started driving and now in Italy and now I love it. I think it's really, really fun. I think it's lovely and absurd and there's just wonderful places at the end of the road. I had such a wonderful experience the other night at Garcia del Valdivique with Alberto and Antonio, tasting these incredible wines, learning these stories about the land, and, you know, driving back down the mountain and seeing the wild boar across the road, those are experiences that I'll never forget. So if there's something in your life that you would love to do and just feels a little bit out of reach, it can just be a wonderful experience to just go for it and See what you can do. You don't know until you try. I Just have really had a lot of fun going on this kind of trip And I am going and finding things to come back and share with you wherever you go Whatever you like to drink always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning Follow MotoDBerry on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok for even more unique and encouraging drinks and language content. If you'd love for the show to continue and grow, support MotoDBerry on Patreon and unlock bonus episodes. Find out more at MotoDBerry .com, where you can also read the blog. Music for the podcast was composed by Ercilia Prosperi and performed by the band Oh, you can purchase their recordings at oumusic .bandcamp .com. \[NOTE: **We are no longer using Patreon!** Become a member [right here](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e14-tazzelenghe-the-tongue-cutter/#/portal/) to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\] Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Hangover with Animals ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e1-trailer-hangover-sayings/) [ The Most Multi-lingual Band? ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e11-ersilia-prosperi-and-amy-denio-ou/) ### ▷S1E11 Poggia il bichiere sul tavolo: la musica poliglotta del gruppo Ou URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e11-ersilia-prosperi-amy-deni-ou/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:22:19.000Z Ersilia Prosperi, the compositrice della sigla per Modo di Bere Italiano, e su produttrice Amy Denio suona insieme nel gruppo Ou, un sestetto che canta in una miriade di dialetti, compreso il sardo, la lingua della patria di Ersilia. Amy è la seconda persona intervistata da Rose Thomas che afferma di aver imparato l'italiano per poter capire perché tutti ridevano insieme. Ersilia crede che ogni lingua possieda il proprio universo poetico. Perché la tartaruga canta in portoghese, l'armadillo in inglese? Questa puntata ha la risposta, a fianco molti bellissimi spezzoni delle composizioni di Ersilia--tra cui uno che ha realizzato proprio per Modo di Bere! ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/ersilia-prosperi--281-29-format-original-2.jpg) Puoi acquistare la musica di Ou su [oumusic.bandcamp.com](https://oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Leggi di più sul lavoro di Ersilia: [www.ersiliaprosperi.com/it/](https://www.ersiliaprosperi.com/it/?ref=mododibere.com) Leggi di più sul lavoro di Amy Denio: [https://amydenio.me/](https://amydenio.me/?ref=mododibere.com) [Ascolta in inglese / Listen in English](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-en/s1e11/ersilia-prosperi-and-amy-denio) ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/amy-denio-jpeg-format-original-2.jpg) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)Oh! Molto bene. Uno, due, tre. Oh! Benvenuti a "Moro di Bere", podcast su bevande locali e detti locali. Sono la condu trice Rose Thomas Bannister. Oggi sono molto felice di intervistare Ersilia Prosperi che ha composto la musica per questo podcast. Si chiama la sigla "Palle di Natale" e la musica che suono nel mezzo del podcast viene da una canzone chiamata "La Stanzetta". Le due canzone provengono dall 'album Pisces Crisis del gruppo compone musica per film apre a contemporanea e danza. Il suo lavoro è stato eseguito a Berlino, New York, Madrid e Seattle. E ovviamente, il siri collabora anche con Amy Dinaio, che è una delle mie persone preferite, una leggenda della creatività, è una persona che encarna il potere di realizzare i propri sogni. Emi ha un 'estensione vocale di 4 /8 e suona chitare Passo, Sax Contralto, Clarinetto e Fisa Almonica. Compone per il danzo moderna Cinema, Teatro e TV. Membro della Seattle Jazz Hall of Fame ha scritto più di 500 opere musicali e ha prodotto oltre 60 registrazione da solista e in collaborazione con artisti di tutto il mondo. È presidente del Tipton -Sax Quartet, vicepresidente della Seattle Composer's Alliance, e suona nel gruppo Balkanical Culture Shock dal 1999\. Principalmente alto di data, ha sviluppato il sua stile musicale unico, collaborando con musicisti e artisti in tutto il mondo. Non vedo l 'ora di parlare con voi della vostro gruppo poliglotta con molti strumenti, prima vorrei chiedervi per una beivanda locale e un detto locale. Un detto che non è dell 'uogo ma spagnolo è "che non appoglia, non foia". Cioè si fa il brindisi e poi si fa che non appogliano foglia, quindi tutti quanti appoggiano bicchiere, perché chi non appoggia non fa l 'amore. E Amy, un detto? Lora qui io ti saluto dalla penissola Kitsap e qui si beve quasi quasi cosa. Io direi che l 'acqua è proprio la cosa più prominente, quindi io vorrei dire questa cosa, è proprio un saluto in genere dalle persone indigine di questa zona, che sono "Skalalam", tribut "Skalalam", e in genere si dice "Hashkasyem", E se tiene le mani così da ricevere la pioggia, era anche il sole come un albero, e vorrei dire "hei shkashem", meraviglioso, mi grazie. Come sappiamo, mi interessano linguale, locale, dialetto, proverbi, slang, specialmente i dialetti d 'Italia, allora vorrei imparare di più per sile perché hai scelto una parola salda per chiamare il gruppo. Ok, dunque il gruppo si chiama "ou" che vuol dire uovo in sardo e si chiama "ou" perché sia perché suona molto bene questo ditongo, molto musicale e anche perché è la mia origine materna, la mia radice culturale e anche perché nel gruppo quando l 'abbiamo fondato insieme a Martina Fadde e Sabrina Codd eravamo tre, loro due nati in Sardegna e quindi anche molto più radicate di me e abbiamo cercato una parola che avesse una attinenza con il simbolo dell 'uovo. Mettiamo un pezzo del canzone, so abbatado. \[MUSIC\] Scrambled here and there, the egg doesn't understand anything anymore. It wakes up not knowing where it is. Every day it's being boiled, eaten raw, braven, scrambled. Its greatest dream is to meet another egg It is hoping for a better future With a freshly met omelette Who would like to be hard boiled Yes, strong and stable Like a hard boiled egg The hard boiled egg Could stay in boiling water for four hours Yes, when it faces the risk of a Exploding However, this could be a better end Than to be scrapped And This is a Scramble Day without you! Dimitri più della gente nel gruppo o la storia della Corte. Allora, la storia della Corte è inizialmente nato con me Sabrina Coda, Martina Fadda, che abbiamo coinvolto Luca Venitucci, il primo pianista, il quale ha coinvolto Cristiano De Fabriti e il quale ha coinvolto Claudio Mosconi. Questo è stato il primo gruppo, il primo nucleo, con i quali siamo andati a registrare il primo disco con Emi a Seattle e poi piano piano in gruppo si è trasformato ormai facciamo dieci anni, quest 'anno compiamo dieci anni di OU e abbiamo cambiato pianista e fino ad adesso abbiamo cambiato pure cantante. Abbiamo una nuova cantante che è Valeria Sturba che è a Bruzzese, una regione d 'italiana molto particolare e molto simile alla Sardegna, quindi anche se non è sarda ha delle caratteristiche musicali e fa somiglia a moltissimo e poi c 'è la formazione appunto con Claudio Cristiano al Bass Batteria e Andrea al Piano Forte e poi abbiamo la Regina Emi Denaio che quando può suona con OU, soprattutto quando noi andiamo in America ma è successo anche che l 'ha avvenuta e abbiamo fatto un tour insieme, Finoil the Shine, in Germania siamo stati. Ti ricordi, Leggetto? Lo mi ricordo, sì, sì. Quindi la formazione è un po' così elastica e vede la presenza di Emi ogni volta che si può. Sarebbe molto bello il prossimo tour del nuovo disco Aveemi, così faremo di nuovo la formazione in sestetto. E Emi, quando stavo visitando te, alla casa sua in Seattle ricordo un professore che anche stava visitando la casa perché lui voleva parlare con te delle cose di una persona che suona moltissimi strumenti la domanda è come imparare un lingua nuova emperare come suonare un strumento nuovo? All 'insomma, quando si inizia a suonare uno strumento si sviluppa un certo sapienza di quello. Io iniziato con piano forte. Dopo sei anni sono stata stufa dalla lezione, da fare delle cose che le vogliono che faccio, io volevo liberarmi e ho scelto la chitarra. Quando ho iniziato a suonare la chitarra invece c 'era un libertà, potevo cambiare le corde, potevo cambiare tutto quanto, potevo improvvisare, faccio tutto quanto. E dopo un certo punto, sempre questo messaggio si deve centrarsi da avere grande successo nel mondo. Si deve specializzarsi. E mi ricordo chiaramente il momento in cui ho deciso "no, io vorrei essere un generalista perché ho appena comprato un passo elettrico" dicendo "adesso mi apro, adesso vado vado a sapere, a conoscere come ogni strumento prende o mette un altro filtro o prende un altro a voce della mia musicalità e quindi quando mentre suono la fisa armonica succedono le cose ed anche l 'idea diverse che invece quando suono cleineto ineto, soffno, basso. Insomma, ogni strumento prende un 'altra voce dalla mia annima, credo. Sono d 'accordo. Sì, Estilia, perché la decisione di utilizzare moltissime lingue, ogni canzone, perché tu parlare Dunque, io la storia è questa che, in prima di tutto, sono una fan di Emi Denayo, quindi quando ero piccola sono cresciuta ascoltando la musica di Emi e mi sono abituata, mi è sembrato normale usare più lingue, anche non perfettamente, anche non usate in modo perfetto, filologico, però in parte studiavo la tromba, poi ascoltavo dischi di schiediemi, quindi ho anche questo background e poi è successo questo che per tanto tempo scrivevo solo musica strumentale, poi a un certo punto ho pensato che le parole servivano, cioè volevo usare le parole per parlare anche, per comunicare anche di più e nel cercare di comunicare di più ho scelto lingue diverse in base a quello che dovevo comunicare e anche all 'interno di una canzone ho sentito che non c 'era nessun problema usarne varie e dove magari questo messaggio che ha la canzone ha un interlocutore specifico uso quella lingua specifica per esempio c 'è una canzone del nuovo disco che si chiama tartaruga E questa canzone è in portoghese, perché è una canzone che è nata durante La distruzione della foresta mazzonica da parte di Bolsonaro, che è un processo che già era iniziato, però era pevo rivolto alla popolazione brasiliana, con la solidarietà verso di loro e anche perché la tartaruga che canta, perché è una tartaruga, che canta, mi immagino che canta in portoghese, è più dolce, è lento e suave, lo so. L 'armadillo invece è inglese, c 'è un 'altra canzone che... Non so per quale voglio. Quando sentirei le canzoni capirai ci sono questi switch linguistici che sono legati al testo e al messaggio e ovviamente è una visione del tutto mia personale delle lingue, non è una versione assoluta o ne vuole esserlo e come io la intendo, Quindi, se è necessario, abbiamo usato il pigmeo, per esempio, in Yenji, che è il disco Scramble, perché mi interessava usare almeno in un punto di quel disco, avere l 'opportunità di avere un coro che portasse intanto a noi mentre lo facevamo un momento di pace, di pacificazione. E infatti è stato bellissimo registrarlo tutti insieme a Seattle con tutti gli amici. È stato un momento molto potente, già il fatto di farlo. E più è stato fatto in pigmeo, per ovviamente bisognerebbe un giorno chiedere a un pigmeo come se veramente si capisce c 'è quello che abbiamo cantato, ma è stato fatto come atto anche politico per accendere un po' la luce sulla questione del WWF in Africa che ha fatto allontanare letteralmente i pygmai dalla foresta quando loro sono per vocazione ancestrale votati a proteggerla e a stare lì invocando il dio yengi che è il dio della foresta. Arriba y abajo y a tu lado Se acerca y está allá Desapareces Ella no crea fácil Total cuando se va de ti Vuelve Viene y va a ir a crecer Luego, juego agradable, infantil Proceso simple que escuchar, pararse y observar Hueve más alegre Y no iba, no era, que iba, me alejó. \[Música\] (singing in foreign language) Vabbè insomma e quindi la stanzetta è in sardo perché parla dello stare in un luogo piccolo raccolto che è come un utero e per me la mia il mio utero è quello della mia mamma che è a sarda e è dolcissima ed è la mia mamma pur è molto dolce e mi la conosce e non poteva che essere in sardo non so non c 'è secondo me bisogna usare con libertà gli strumenti che abbiamo nell 'epoca in cui siamo possiamo farlo secondo me non è un male ma è anche un tentativo di comunicare oltre i nostri paesi oltre i confini oltre le nazioni. Quindi un pochino è anche un atto politico cercare di usare le lingue. Brava! La stanzetta conosciamo perché grazie a te, uso per alla musica del centro del podcast para en un momento cuando cambia el humor. \[MÚSICA\] Amy, Quante lingue parli e come va che hai iniziato di visitare in Italia e imparare italiano? Adesso io parlo l 'italiano, io sogno l 'italiano, in inglese anche, quindi è proprio una lingua che prende il mio cuore. Niente, parlo un po' di tedesco, varie diletti in tedesco è molto divertente anche un po' di francese perché ho studiato francesi durante la scuola media però allora mi ricordo, prima volta sono venuta in Europa proprio non potevo neanche dire buongiorno in francese ho detto mademoiselle volevo dire buongiorno ma di mosello, mi ricordo chiaramente che non sono riusciuta a ricordarmi e pensavo "managgia, proprio non sono capaci a imparare le atellinga, managgia". Però pian piano perché ho soprovisuto 30 anni di giri in Europa attraversando tantissimi paesi ancora, ancora, piano a piano, ho iniziato a riconoscere le parole. E' niente. E dicevo in inglese prima che mi ricordo da prima parole che ho riconosciuto in tedesco era "gennau" e la gente si diceva "ah, gennau !" e volevo sapere, conoscere cosa vuol dire no, vuol dire esattamente. E questo era un po' la perfetta da riflettere la cultura precisa alemanie, tedesca. Quindi, parlando di italiano eccetera, il mio gruppo i Tondogs era un trio con due bassi e batteria. abbiamo attraversato tutta l 'Europa, ma non in Italia, per caso ho incontrato la gente di est e sud d 'Europa, così detto, nell 'altro lato dell 'iron curtain, appena appena aperto e suonavamo lì e poi a tutto il punto un postino di Montfalcone mi ha spedito un inviato un fax "ciao Amy, sono Giulio, io sono postino a Montfalcone e produco un festival nel castello, volete venire? Ma dai un castello in Italia che bello! certo possiamo venire e mi ricordo chiaramente che allora eravamo quasi tutti i tre vegetariani e non si poteva neanche trovare il cibo giusto per vegetariani, mi ricordo un tipo in Ostermania est dicendo voi vegetariani proprio state nel lato, nel confine delle morte essere vegetariani in Germania, non c 'è popolo, come mai sopravvivi, "How do you survive?" E niente, siamo arrivati in Italia e c 'era un 'esplosione di tutto, di cibo, di gusti, di colori del sole, dell 'atmosfera, tutto quanto, e rideva la gente e io volevo per forza capire a cosa stava ridendo la gente e poi ho scoperto che io condivido lo stesso senso d 'umore, cioè proprio non si può controllare niente e meglio lascio perdere tutto conto e ridere quando sta cronando tutto il mondo e non proprio sta, tutto catastrofe. Che bello! Ha, ha, ha! Avete visto? Di nuovo è successo un disastro! Ha, ha, ha! E così è proprio un, è buiissimo, è proprio un senso d 'umore molto particolare che io condivido. Eh? Niente. Così. Mi ricordo un modo di dire la gata fettolosa fa i gattini ciechi e così è utile quando quando sto viaggiando e un problema succede che che aiuta a prendere le cose un amo. Ma è proprio così quando si sta stressata non si vede bene, c 'è un senso di proprio, siccome si è cieco, no? E proprio non si vede più. Sì, davvero. In inglese diciamo "Haste makes waste", ma come sempre il muro di direi in italiano è più, come si dice, più colorato. Sì, colorato con immagio e animali. Metafrio. Altra canzone, vostra, si chiama "Non c 'è niente da lavare", voglio mettere un pezzo di questa canzone qua ma prima puoi parlare della storia di questa canzone. La storia di questa canzone è ecologista. La canzone ecologista è il testo l 'ha scritto Monique Misrahi che è una canta autrice a Statunitense che adesso sta in Italia ma stava stavallina agli Stati Uniti all 'epoca ed è una grande ironia sul fatto che non ci sia niente da lavare. Alla fine la canzone parla delle sigarette, cioè del fumare meno che puzziamo, che siamo sporchi, continuiamo a fumare e siamo così inondati di puzza e sporco e però poi invece il coro risponde, il coro greco tipo non c 'è niente da lavare E quindi niente, è tutto pulito, Ros, il mondo è pulito. Se ne può passi, che scherzio è finito? Siamo a sigare, shippie, viti, vuoni e compri Non c 'è niente da lavare, non c 'è niente da lavare \[música\] Debo Chi è delte? La storia del theme song, la tema, "Palle di Natale". Ah, "Palle di Natale". Allora, "Palle di Natale" è molto interessante ed è il testo di "Palle di Natale" di uno scrittore che forse ha scritto un solo libro, non so, ma un libro che mi sono ritrovata a casa, si chiama Patrizio Romero e Cordero. Io ho visitato un po' il testo di questo testo che è strato da un romanzo, da un monologo in realtà, e fondamentalmente parla dell 'essere, cioè, palle di Natale e chrisma sbolso, quindi la metafora è quella della famiglia, del Natale, dell 'ipocrisia del Natale. Però all 'interno di questo anche dell 'ipocrisia, delle maschere che mettiamo nel Natale, ma anche nella vita, in cui può essere, a me capita, magari pure a voi capita, in cui siamo come Pagliacci, come Pagliasos, e a forza di essere quella maschera, ci perdiamo e non perdiamo il contatto con la realtà, diciamo così, e con gli obiettivi che abbiamo nella vita, insomma, è un po' psicologico, un tema psicologico natalizio. No se lleva por otros Engañándose de cacer para civilismo Mi piace molto, è quasi mille per la musica, per questo podcast. Cosa fate di nuovo? Cosa ci aspetta? Le prossime tappe della conquista del mondo della Corte di Hau, l 'autocelibrazione regina. Sì, allora io, come Regina, ricordiamo che sono venuta a Roma a aiutare l 'Hau produrre il terzo album, pensiamo che lo si chiamerà l 'Uranio, è proprio una collezione delle canzoni strepettosamente belle belle belle. Io sono orgogliolissima da produrre questo disco su mio sito di bandcampamidnaio .bandcamp .com e da anche si può trovare le musiche tra poco. Siamo finendo il progetto adesso. Anche su ou music .bandcamp Bandcamp .com e anche stiamo collaborando con un 'etichetta romana, si chiama Folderoll, proprio un 'etichetta strepitosa che loro fanno degli oggetti e stiamo parlando proprio da "Nosso, se possiamo fare un uovo, un disco nel formato o magari un USB, un tipo thumb drive" dove una cosa come questo però però dal formato "oh" e poi si apre e poi c 'è la musica all 'interno. Durante la versione inglese di questa intervista, ho chiesto a Ercilia se volevo compuere qualcosa usando una registrazione di Modribere italiano spiegando alcuni Dile suoni in sottofondo Vivo davvero a New York Forse puoi sentire il mio vicino di sopra Che suona il sassofono Vivo davvero a New York Puoi sentire che suono He's wanna' he's wanna' he's wan' he's wanna' He's wanna' Grazie mille per parlare con me, per il tempo, per la musica e ai ascoltatori, grazie. Ho venguto vada e qualunque cosa tu beva, ricorda di goderti la vita e non smettere mai di imparare. Brava! Bello! Puoi seguire Modo di Bere su TikTok, Instagram e YouTube. Puoi diventare sostenitore del programma su Patreon e accedere a più contenuti esclusivi ed educativi su www .omododibere .com La música está composta de la hercilia prospera del grupo O1\. Puedes escuchar su www .o1usic .banca .com Llevo bajo el brazo pa' yazo que permanecen dejándose llevar un otro se engañando Engañándose, déjase para ese mismo La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto, registrato, e montato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Steve Silverstein ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S1E11 Glass on the Table: the Multi-Instru-Lingualism of Ou URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e11-ersilia-prosperi-and-amy-denio-ou/ Last updated: 2026-08-24T20:03:08.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-it/s1e11/ersilia-prosperi-amy-deni-ou) Ersilia Prosperi, the composer of the Modo di Bere theme music, and her illustrious producer Amy Denio play together in Ou, a band that sings in a myriad of dialects. This episode includes clips of Ersilia's compositions for Ou in Spanish, Italian, French, Sardo, and Pygmy. Ersilia, Amy and Rose Thomas swap naughty toasts and discuss the various personalities expressed through different languages and different instruments. This is the second Modo di Bere episode to date where someone (Amy) says she learned Italian so that she could understand what everyone was laughing about. Download this episode for opinions on the philosophy expressed through Italian humor, language as a compositional choice, musical responses to geopolitics, and the desires of an egg as expressed in the language of Ersilia's Sardinian homeland. Wait til the end for a new composition Ersilia made just for Modo di Bere! You can purchase Ou's albums at [oumusic.bandcamp.com!](https://oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) More about Ersilia Prosperi: [https://www.ersiliaprosperi.com/en/](https://www.ersiliaprosperi.com/en/?ref=mododibere.com) More about Amy Denio: [https://amydenio.me/](https://amydenio.me/?ref=mododibere.com) **Auto-generated transcript.** (Please excuse errors.) View Transcript This podcast episode references strong language as well as strong drink. Each language has a poetical atmosphere and sounds, so I choose what I need. Do you consider learning to play a new instrument, learning a new language? Absolutely, I really do. I feel like each instrument brings out a different aspect of my musicality. So it's like a different dialect, very much so. And it's an amazing cultural experience to begin to understand various languages and see how different cultures see the world. And I feel like that also happens. Don't you find, maybe I'm generalizing, but I think that certain instruments, certain personality types are drawn to certain instruments. Have you noticed that at all? Like trombone players? Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. Today, I have a very special interview with two incredible musicians, including Ercilia Prosperi, who composed the Modo di Bere theme music. If you've been enjoying the music for this podcast as much as I have, you'll be interested to know that the theme song is called "Palle di Natale" and the incidental music you'll often here in the middle of the show, is from a song called "La Stanzetta." Both songs are from the album "Pisces Crisis" by the band "Ou," which means egg in the Sardinian dialect. As of talking with Air Celia weren't cool enough, we have a second guest today, the legendary Amy Denio, who plays in "Ou" and also produces their records. These two incredible people have juicy biographies, So, pour yourself a special drink and settle in for this introduction. "Ou" is an Italian sextet led by Arcilia and they sing in English, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, and Sardo. They'll sing in multiple languages within the same song, even at the same time. There are even more instruments involved than there are languages. Arcilia plays the trumpet and the ukulele. Her work ranges from improvisation and alt -jazz to songwriting, collaborating with artists like Meclid Hadero, Antonello Ruggero, Orchestra Lato, Jessica Luri, Emily Hay, Giancarlo Ciaffini, and many, many others. She composes and performs music for films, contemporary opera and dance, and has showcased her work in Berlin, New York, Madrid, and Seattle. And Arceli, of course, also collaborates with Amy Denaio, who is one of my favorite people I've ever met, an absolute legend of creativity, and the inspiring person who embodies the power of going for your dreams. Amy has a four octave vocal range and plays guitar, bass, alto sax, clarinet, and accordion. She composes for modern dance, film, theater, and TV. A member of Seattle Jazz Hall of Fame, she has written more than 500 works and has produced over 60 recordings solo and in collaboration with artists worldwide. She's been operating her own recording studio, record label, and publishing company Spoot Music since 1986 with the release of her first cassette No Bones. She is president of the all -women Tipton Sax Quartet, vice president of the Seattle Composers' Alliance, and has performed and recorded in the Balkan group Culture Shock since 1999\. Mostly self taught, she has developed her unique musical style by collaborating with musicians and artists worldwide. Like Ursilia, Amy also speaks several languages. I cannot wait to talk to both of you about your multilingual, multi -instrumental band, OU. But first, I would love for each of you to share a local drink and a local saying that has stayed with you from your home or from anywhere your adventures have taken you. Bottom's up. \[speaking Spanish\] \[speaking Spanish\] Yes, I know way to– \[speaking Spanish\] Wait, second. \[speaking Spanish\] Okay. This is in Spanish. When you can say Chi no polla, no polla. When you do the Brinisi, no? Yes? Cheers. Chi no polla, no polla. What does that mean in English? No, it's not very, very fine, raffinato, very elegant. It means who doesn't put the glass in the table, doesn't fuck. >> And that actually reminds me of a brain disease that I invented that probably should never be said. I learned some bad words in Italian, and one of them is Sicilian dialect, and the word is mink, yeah. And so I was in Sicily thinking, you know, probably they don't normally in Italy you say chinchin, which is the sound of the glass and chinchin, like it rings, right? Chinchin, so it's a very onomatopoetic word. And I thought, well, maybe they don't, maybe they wouldn't want to say chinchin because that's Italian and Sicilians are very proud of their unique and beautiful culture. So what rhymes with chinchin? And then remember this word mean, yeah, which is a kind of a nasty word that generally women don't say, right? Anyway, so, and I turned to my girlfriend in this bar in in Katania, and I said, mean, I will hold me like mean, and she she understood instantly, and she, she hit my glass and said, yeah. So, so it's a it's a very participatory way for two people to say a bad word at this, you know, it's a, it's a collaborative swear word that, that only I say, yes, yes, Colin, Colin response. I'm so glad that we've established that we're going to mark this episode of the podcast as explicit because I've been waiting for my chance to say the parolaccia, the bad word that I invented in Italian, which my co -workers in Italian wine thought was hilarious. So in the wine world, we spend a good part of our day taking our favorite drink and spitting it out into a spittoon, which is a word that is almost never used in English. It evokes the old west, you know, the cowboys in the movie spitting the tobacco into the large urn. There is a word for spittoon in Italian, which is sputacchiera. So I came to my boss and wanted to show off my Italian practice. And I said, I know what this is called. This is a sputacchiera. And everyone just died because this translates basically to, we decided, spitch, spit, bitch, or bitch, spit. So anyway, great. No, there's there's so many beautiful, beautiful bad words in Italian and definitely I'm always interested in them. You do have to be kind of, you kind of have to, you know, warm up to it usually. So I'm glad we just established the rapport immediately and just dove right in. As you know, I'm really interested in local languages, specifically the dialects of Italy. So I would love to hear more about why Owu chose this Sardinian word to name your band and how you came to sing in the Sardinian language. Is that where you're from originally, Ursilia? Yes, yes. The word is "O" with the article is "So" in Sardinian dialect and I love, my mother is from Sardinian So, it's my route, my spiritual and ancestral route comes from Sardinia. And in the band, we were also with Martina Fadda and Sabrina Coda that grow up in Sardinia. So we started to choose words and for the meaning That is the egg and also for the how sounds it sounds the word which was all but also for the meaning Respect to our music all our music our music We started whenever there's any you know, we whenever there's a OU in any word We use a - Yes, the court, our court. - The court. We have a royal court. 'Cause there's OU in it. - It's very useful, this name for everything. (speaking in foreign language) - At a certain point, we had a keyboard player and we still do. And he's from a noble family in Rome. And he's very noble, you know? And we noticed that he was so noble that really he didn't participate too much in the moving of equipment, or any kind of servile actions he would observe nobly. And a certain player turned to him and said, "Eh, Marquese !" And everyone laughed like, "He is, he's a Marquis, that's really great, you know, like that's actually perfect." So then we began to think, "Well, so if he's Marquis, then what is the bass player?" And he said, Well, someone's maybe Ercilia said okay. Well, he's the prince and so then the drummer said oh well if he's the prince I'm the illegitimate prince Principe legittimo and ha and so bit by bit with and then the Lisea was a Marquisina because she's about four feet tall. She's tiny and then ha and I became Regina so they don't call me in this group when we're together They never use my actual Christian name. They call me Regina. Queen. And so obviously Ercilia as the idea that the main egg behind everything, she is the king, Rex, Rexus. I call her Rexus. And it's a fake Latin, Latinification of the, you know, that's like, Sierra. So it's a world court and so anyone who gets involved with us in any manner gets nominated to, you know, on some positions. So we have a new singer and she's, she plays the theremin impeccably. She plays violin. She sings impeccably. And so she's the maga. She's the magician. Would it be okay to play a clip of the song called So, "Abattado", yes, the song also gave the name of the album, "Scramble", and it's a monologue. It's the act that speaks about its life and its desires. (upbeat music) ♪ Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh ♪ ♪ Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh ♪ - Scramble here and there. The egg doesn't understand anything anymore. It wakes up not knowing where it is, every day it is being boiled, eaten raw, braven, scrambled. Its greatest dream is to meet another egg that is hoping for a better future. With a freshly met omelet, who would like to be hard boiled. Yes, strong and stable, like a hard boiled egg. The hard boiled egg could stay Fall in water for four hours. Yes, when it faces the risk of a explode hit. However, this could be a better end than to be scrapped. And this, our scrambled egg without season, is planned. The end. The end. (upbeat music) In parte sardiniana, si dice che si vuole essere un aggato buono, perché è un aggato scrembo. E si vuole finalmente incontrare un frittata molto "frittata", "tortilla", non so il nome, "frittata", e quindi... ...è finalmente felice e... ...quieto e forte. - "To be embraced by a frittata". - Sì. "S 'ho abattato ghele di si, so a tosto, insperata in mezzo solte e "cundu una gatta", cioè "it wish an happier destiny" con "turtiglia", "turtiglia" rittata, ma beh, "it's absurd", "it's naif". Ma è un issue filosofico. There are lots of words in this song, in English, to spread the concept in the world, because Sardinian, not everybody knows Sardinian dialect. Well, I love the way that you sing in multiple different languages, even within the same song. So tell me the story of, oh, how did you form, and why did you decide to sing in so and languages. >> This is because I play trumpet and I started in my life writing composition, composing only for instruments. And at a certain point, I thought that the words in La lingua è molto importante a comunicare, a parte la musica. Quindi ho iniziato a scrivere le parole. Ma non sono un singolo, non sono attaccato. You're not attached to Italian language, to communicate. Each language has a poetical atmosphere and sounds. So I choose what I need. Choose a language for what I need. Now I'm starting a new project in Spain and new compositions. and I want to use also German. This is very difficult because the singers have many problems with different languages. So, to meet someone that joins my music and my compositions with this Le Geretza also. Yes, it's a little bit difficult, but I continue, yes. I wanted to speak to the two of you specifically about this because you're both multi -instrumentalists as well. Amy, when I met you at your house in Seattle, I remembered there was a visiting academic from Scandinavia who had come to Seattle to talk to you about your experience as a multi -instrumentalist. And as I've been studying different languages, one of the things that I observed in episode two with Dr. Rebecca Lawrence was that your voice changes, not just the word sounds, but people's voices get higher or lower in all different ways when they switch to changing different language. So, Celia, the fact that you are using it as a compositional tool is marvelous. I love this. Amy, I want to ask you, I guess, about– you're just wildly instrumental. You play so many different instruments. Do you consider learning to play a new instrument, learning a new language? Absolutely. I really do. I feel like each Bring brings out a different aspect of my musicality. So it's like a different dialect very much So and I remember when I first started coming to Europe I had studied French in high school and when I got to France and I couldn't speak a word I was terrified and I really thought I had no capacity for language But very slowly over time. I started recognizing words in different languages like and anyway so I and now I just I love language because each one like if Celia was saying each language brings out a different filter through which people see the world and it's an amazing cultural experience to begin to to understand various languages and see how different cultures see the world and I feel like that that also happens don't Don't you find, maybe I'm generalizing, but I think that certain instruments, certain personality types are drawn to certain instruments. Have you noticed that at all? Like trombone players? - I love trombone players. My husband plays the trombone. His parents are in their 80s and they met in the trombone section in eighth grade. And we have a neighbor who we recently became friends with. Hi, John good. And he is so sweet and nice. And of course, he's a trombone player. You know, so I apparently have an affinity for them. Amy, how many languages do you speak at this point? Well, I dream in Italian. So I'd say that I speak it pretty well. And I do speak passable French and German and a lot of Spanish. I speak like like restaurant Spanish I like to say and then I like to be polite in a lot of Asian languages but just a few words. Rose I want to say that I was when I was a child a fan of Amy and her music so I have this feeling with the different using of languages because I perché io sono molto divertente. La musica che ho scoperto, quando era un figlio, era completamente in lingua. La lavoro con Città Invisibile, Ditalo Calvino, e Amber Bacicicocco, Salvatore... Questo approccio, questo uso of the languages with the lightness, yes, without a verguenza, without a vergoña. Without shame. Yes, without shame. Yes, here's Amy. Amy having this moment thinking I have no capacity for languages. I mean, talk about a self -limiting belief that was wrong. Right? Yeah. You were wrong. It took a long time to get over it. That negative thought was completely untrue. Now you dream an Italian. Look at you. That's wonderful. But you know what I remembered later on was when I was 10 years old, there was a book fair in my elementary school and I was looking at the different books and I bought, the only book I bought was an Italian book that had the picture of La Luna. Oh, La Luna. Like, even when I was 10 years old, I was attracted to Italian. Later, I realized, oh my God, that's incredible. Amy, tell me the story of how you first came to Italy and began to learn Italian. Well, I first came to Italy playing in a group called the Tone Dogs, my trio with two basses and drums. And we had been already touring in Europe a little bit, mostly in France and Germany and for some reason a lot in Central Europe and Eastern Europe. And then finally this postman from Mont Falcone said, "I am Julio." And he sent a fax to my day job at Muzak. I quickly grabbed it so no one could see. And he's like, "I am a postman in Italy, and I invite you to a festival in a castle in Novogorica, you know, Nuova Gorica, and right on the Slovenian border. So for the first time, we were going to go to Italy, and we had just been kind of suffering. We're vegetarians, and it's hard to find vegetarian food in 1990 in the former Eastern Bloc, right? And the coffee was terrible and everyone was kind of depressed. And, you know, we came to Italy, and here's Tulio, he brought us to lunch and the sun was shining and the sea was shining and the atmosphere was beautiful and the food was amazing and the coffee was incredible. And everyone was laughing. It was just like this entering heaven. I was like, what is this place? I've never been to Italy and here, I just felt this sense of being alive. And so I wanted to know what people were laughing at, you know, what was this sense of humor, you know, that was so attractive to me. And so I began to study the language and I discovered that I share the same very dark sense of humor, which is that we try to control things, maybe, but inevitably things go wrong and ultimately we don't have control over everything. And so what do you do? You have to laugh. You have to just let go and just be and move forward and flow. And so I realized this is exactly my nature is this this kind of cultural attitude of You know that you look at other cultures like for example in Germany things are so well organized and everything is precise and The most common word that this is something that really was an insight for me Like the first word I recognized in German was again now and so I was like what I heard everyone's again now now. And people were so excited when they would say this word, get out. And I said, what does it mean? I said, well, it means exactly. That's so perfect. That's so perfect for German, like it reflects the German culture and the end this dedication to technique and an order and all those things that they you find in. So in Italian culture, I don't know what the I actually did a survey and someone said, "Well, you know, I think Magadi could be the most common word." And that's something like one hopes, if only, you know, or hopefully, you know, right? Magadi, right? And so it says, "You dream." You're like, "I have this vision and maybe it'll happen." Most likely not, but, you know, with any luck, we'll have dinner tonight, you know? I love this. You know, this makes, I completely relate. Obviously, I'm now very devoted to my own Italian -inspired project. This makes me think of one of my favorite Italian sayings that I use all the time, especially when I'm traveling and things go wrong, which is, "Una Gatta Fretolosa, Fa 'i Gattini Chechi." So the stressed cat gives birth to blind kittens. And I know it's sad, but the funny thing about it. It's sad, but it's dark, but it's funny. And I've heard it in several different dialects. Actually, at this point, it's a little mini, mini collection in my lexicon of, of Moto G. Deer Day. And it, what I like about it is I actually think I misunderstood it a little bit. Because I think it would just translate to haste makes waste, we say in English, if you hurry, if you hurry, you know, the result is not good. But I just used it more widely to connect to this aspect of Italian character like you were describing. It's just like, you know, and it's not that Italians don't get stressed out in the mad, they do, just whoom, you know, red face, steam blowing out the ears, and then everything's fine. You know, there's this release of the stress, but as far as, you know, and generally when things go wrong, you can't get too upset. It's not gonna help. And you know, when I'm missing a plane or something, especially when I'm traveling to or from Italy, I try to get into that mindset and just like, you know, and I got to Fratulosa, it's like, don't, it's not going to help. You could get really upset, but it's not going to help. Let me ask this question. As you move from culture to culture with each of these languages in which you're composing, are there kind of windows into the soul of a certain locality. >> Okay. For example, there is this song in the album "Scramble" and the name is Yenji. And Yenji is the spirit of the forest for the pygmy people, Aka. And the song speaks about crisis, as many songs, as many compositions. And at the end, there is this long, long chorus, chorus, chorus in Pygmy. So I studied for a few months the ethnographic dictionary from French to Pygmy, to looking for some little words, for words, to write this a choice, okay, choir. And also there is, I want to say this, there is a political song also because the "Vuvvvvvfe" is the world, what's it called? - World Wildlife Fund. - Yes, push out the pygmy people from the forest to protect the nature, try to protect the nature and the forest, they push out the pygmy people. And to me, this is a very heavy, very heavy. And so we use this song to speak about pygmies. Yes, we use the music in a political way, but it's a spiritual song also. But it's in Spanish and pygmies. It's in two languages. Arriba y abajo y a tu lado, se acerca y está allá, desapareces. Ella no crea fácil, total cuando se va de ti. Vuelves, viene y va Un juego agradable, un infantil juego Proceso simple que escuchar, pararse y observar Hueve más alegre Bien y va Viene y va, marear, que y va, me alejan. (upbeat music) This is so marvelous and interesting and it also ties into a lot of what this project is about because the connections that I'm making between local drinks and local language, when I realized that I wanted to bring them together, it wasn't just, "Oh, I like both of these things. I'll make a show about them." I was really beginning to see, especially in Italy, where there are so many different indigenous grape varieties, hundreds of them, and also such an amazing diversity of local languages. I saw these connections a lot of times in preservation efforts, right, with grapes that are going to go extinct because they became less popular and everyone pulled them up to plant Merlot. And then the same thing happens, you know, with a lot of political connections, usually with dialect, you know, people are assimilating into a different culture. And they're, you know, the children, you know, they're told not to learn the parent's language in immigration scenarios. Or, you or certainly there are many examples through history where people's dialects are suppressed for many different political reasons or to lose a plant, a whole history of winemaking because of the vagaries of whatever. There's another song I really love because it uses more than one language. If you don't mind me playing lots of your music on the show so that people can hear it, I particularly love nonce niente da lavare, and I wonder if you could talk to me a little bit the story of the song. Now this song, yes, was Monique Mizrahi wrote the words of this song and started from a family, problem in my family, but is a metaphor about the world that is very, very, very dirty. - Corrupt. - Corrupt. Yes, but at the end, speaks about cigarettes. - That's an, of course, non -Chinese, non -Chinese, it means there's nothing to wash. - Non -Chinese, it means there's nothing to wash. - Everything's clean, nothing to wash. - Everything's fine, nothing to see here. (upbeat music) *musique* Mais c 'est important de le voir quand j 'en manue ou quand je vois beaucoup d 'écoute de gêne Mais essayez, mais ce n 'est pas possible Qu 'est -ce que je fais sur mon cigarette? *musique* Voi ne compri Non c 'è niente da lavare It's very ironic you know so what Amy what's next for you can you tell us a little bit about your maybe your your latest album? Well the the newest exciting thing is that I recently was in Rome working with O on their third album and I'm really excited because we're almost finished mixing it and I'm going to be putting it out on my record label in collaboration with a fantastic label from Rome "Volderoll Records" Marco Contini and so This is super exciting because, again, Ercilia, I have to say, is my very favorite composer in the entire world. What she does, I'm serious, so serious. So she reaches this level of beauty, playfulness, depth, political, relativity, everything. I mean, there's so many levels of this music that just resonate deeply with me and have for a long time so I am really thrilled to be putting out this record it'll be at least on my end it will be digitally available on the band camp through the O site and also through spute music and so I look forward to promoting it. Do we have a title? Maybe you say the uranio maybe. Uranio. You maybe uranio uranio uranio yeah yeah yeah yeah that's true that's right okay so it might be called uranium um uranium because nato has a huge military base in sardinia and there's awful awful um with a lot of nuclear fallout i mean they're just doing war games all the time and the local population is starting to get sick. Will we ever learn? And Torio also Torio. Yes, also from Metallipesanti, heavy metals. Yeah, heavy metals. Yeah, yeah, radioactive metals from the army, army, US army also a lot, but also German and Israel, army are two times a here are there and they are doing war games in the water and there in the ground. Speaking of language, what a horrible phrase, war games, right, yeah, right. So I want to make sure to let our listeners know how to purchase OU's recordings at oumusic bancamp .com. Amy Denio is also on Bancamp. Amy Denio .Bancamp .com. You can find out more about her work at AmyDenio .me and more about Ercilia's projects at ErciliaProsperi .com. I'll include all these links in the notes for the show. Now, as I was recording the Italian language trailer for the podcast, it was very stiff and slow because I was trying so hard to be correct and I listened back to it, just sounded terrible. I recorded it again and it sounded great and I was trying to figure out what had changed besides having a chance to practice a little bit and I realized I was moving my hands and I was making this these gestures and I thought I had this revelation actually that the reason the Italian speakers, you can't pronounce it Without making some of those movements, it's so beautiful to me, so I felt very Italian in this moment. But I also, I put something in there which was, I was saying in Italian, you might be, I really do live in New York. You might be hearing my neighbor upstairs playing the saxophone. Now, I took it out because the recording was great and you couldn't hear in the background music. But I have this little clip of me saying in Italian, you know I live in New York because you can hear my upstairs neighbor playing the saxophone. And I kind of, I didn't have time, but I wanted to send it before this interview. I wondered if that little audio clip might spark some composition. So I was wondering if I could commission a short compositional positional idea around this little clip of sound. Yes, so in music, I just, you know, mother was the answer. No, no, no, no. Dopa, dopa. That's it. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Thanks for your time. Yeah. I hope to see you soon. You are on there. Sure enough, a few weeks later, after requesting this commission from Air Celia, I was on a plane in Milan, and I received an email just before the plane took off, which was the song that you're about to hear, a little piece that Ursula composed just for us here at Moto di Berre, with the audio from the outtake from the Italian trailer. This podcast, if you hadn't quite realized, is available also in Italian. You can listen to it in English and Italian. It's called Moto di Berre Italiano. It's a separate podcast. You can find it wherever you listen to podcasts. If you speak Italian, if you want to speak Italian, you can listen to the episodes back to back. I have the same guests. Usually they're not an exact direct translation unless the person isn't bilingual in these two languages. In that case, I translate the episode and recreate those interviews with a voice actor. but in any case, it might be a fun language learning tool. So if you're interested, if you're an English speaker who's interested in learning Italian, you can check that podcast out. And so here's a little lesson for you right now, the text of the song that you're about to hear without further ado, composed by Ursulia. The meaning in English is I really do live in New York. Perhaps you can hear my upstairs neighbor who plays the saxophone. Vivo davvero a New York. For se puoi sentire il mio vicino di sopra. Che suona il saxofono. Vivo davvero a New York. Vivo davvero a New York. Vivo davvero \[MUSIC\] \[FOREIGN\] Is suana is suana is suana is suana, is suana is suana I really hope that you enjoyed this interview with OU. I hope you go to OUMusic .bancant .com and buy all of their records, every song is a completely new adventure. Thank you so much for listening. And wherever you go, whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Follow MotoDBerry on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok for even more unique and encouraging drinks and language content. If you'd love for the show to continue and grow, support Motodiberia on Patreon and unlock bonus episodes. Find out more at Motodiberia .com, where you can also read the blog. Music for the podcast was composed by Ercilia Prosperi and performed by the band OU. You can purchase their recordings at oumusic .vancamp .com Que permanece dejándose llevar Un otro, se engañando Se dejan separarse mismo \[NOTE: **We are no longer using Patreon!** Become a member [right here](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s4e14-tazzelenghe-the-tongue-cutter/#/portal/) to support Modo di Bere & unlock exclusive content.\] Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Wine Tour Driving 😱 ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e12-wine-tour-driving/) [ Wines of Campania ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e10-the-boot-in-20-campania-susannah-gold/) ### ▷S1E10 The Boot in 20: Campania (with Susannah Gold) URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e10-the-boot-in-20-campania-susannah-gold/ Last updated: 2026-08-26T03:02:02.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e10-lo-stivale-in-20-campania-susannah-gold/) Susannah and Rose Thomas share some useful Italian wine law definitions and discuss the volcanic factor in a region where a glass of wine still tells the story of that day in Pompeii in the year 79\. The episode concludes with travel advice, from which islands to sail around to which city welcomes the morbid to epic catacombs. This is the episode that launched [The Boot in 20](https://www.mododibere.com/the-boot-in-20/) series on the Modo di Bere podcast, where Rose Thomas interviews a wine expert on each of Italy's 20 regions. Check out Susannah's [Vigneto Podcast](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/vigneto-a-podcast/id1566567910?ref=mododibere.com), where she reviews wine books and talks sustainability. She also has a wonderful wine blog called [Avvinare.](https://avvinare.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Susannah is on Instagram [@vignetocomms](https://www.instagram.com/vignetocomms/?ref=mododibere.com). Susannah offers many different services to wine producers and consumers through her website [www.susannahgold.com](https://susannahgold.com/?ref=mododibere.com). **Auto-generated transcript.** (Please excuse errors.) View Transcript Rovicello. And I think he's maybe the only producer of it. I think he has maybe one hectare, maybe two, maybe there are two people in all of the world that are growing that great variety. So no matter how many we know, we're always going to learn something new. That's what I love. Useful Italian vocabulary. Mison, Tito, I've never heard of that. Oh, right. Yes, that's true. Mison. Yes. And I like to say that Italy is kind of Samuelier kryptonite. And today, I have the pleasure of interviewing Susanna Gold. She is going to teach us about Campania for the new Modo di Bere series, The Boot in 20\. In this series, I'll bring on an expert for each of Italy's 20 wine regions for an educational overview. Regional history, challenges and opportunities for the present and the future, soil, climate, grapes, and wines, relevant wine laws, and tips for how to visit. Whether you're just getting started with Italian wine or you've been a fan for years, one thing I've learned is you can always go deeper. With Italy, there's always, always more to learn, which is perfect for the show, since the Modo di Bere motto is to try new things, enjoy yourself, and never stop learning. - Real quick, before we start the interview, if you're a fan of the Modo di Bere podcast, please take a Amendment now, go to Apple Podcasts and leave the show a five star rating and write a review. It really helps with visibility for the show and I really appreciate it. We'll be here when you get back. Before we introduce Campania, I would like to introduce Susanna Gold. Susanna is an American writer, educator and brand ambassador with a beautiful focus on Italian wine. She is one of the only non -Italians in AIS, the Association of Italian sommeliers. Susanna holds a diploma in wine and spirits from the Wine and Spirits Educational Trust. She's an Italian wine ambassador and she holds a multiplicity of certifications from the Society of Wine Educators and the Wine Scholars Guild. The first thing I learned about Susanna is that her qualifications barely fit on the back of her business card. The second thing I learned is that she is a generous, kind and effective educator. I've really enjoyed learning about wine and Susanna on various occasions, and I'm thrilled to bring her on the show. Susanna, welcome. - Thank you so much, Rose, you're making me blush. Anyway, yeah, that business card is a little ridiculous, but I saw someone else had a business card like that, and I was like, oh, I wanna put all my certifications on it. - I loved it. I would sign me up to be friends with this woman right now, please. - Oh, that's fun. Thank you. Thank you so much. - Yes, don't change your business card. - You know, I'm old school, so I still actually have a business card, not just to QR code that somebody can tag and copy. Anyway, I'm really excited to be here. Your project is so fun. I love 20 on the boot. So Italy is my sweet spot, the love of my life other than my child. And I'm always happy to talk about it. And I'm really happy to talk about Campania, an amazing region, really beautiful. I love it too. Before we dive into the interview, I want to ask our listeners, how are you liking the show? I would love to hear from you. Is there a local drink or a local saying from your town that you wish I would cover? Tell me about it. You can send me a message through my website at motodiberry .com, where you can also sign up for the newsletter, or you can send me a DM at motodiberry on Instagram. I can't wait to hear from you. Susanna, Campania. Let's start with the basics. Where is Campania located in Italy and what is Campania famous for besides its points? So okay, where is Campania located? Let's start with that because I'm a real map geek. I love maps and sort of orienting yourself. And with Italy, even though everyone is familiar with the idea that Italy is in the shape of a boot, it's not necessarily so clear where the reasons are. So Campania is in southern Italy. You can separate Italy into northern, central, and southern Italy and Campania is in southern Italy. It borders with Lazio, which is the region where the capital Rome is located. So that's probably familiar to a lot of people. Campania has a lot of mountains that people may not be as familiar with, and it's on the sea. It's on the Mediterranean. So I think if you think about Campania, it's on the Mediterranean in southern Italy, close to Lazio and that is a good way to kind of orient yourself. So as an Italian wine nerd myself, I sometimes find myself thinking only about wine regions and realize that, you know, people who might not have that same obsession think of completely different things. So what is Campania famous for? Places that people go on vacation that aren't necessarily wine regions, just for some context. Okay, for some context. So the first thing you probably think of when you think of Campania, well, two things. One is Pompeii. So almost everybody has heard about Pompeii, which is the town in Campania that was covered by volcanic ash when Vesuvius, the volcano, exploded in 79 AD. It's a really interesting, amazing place to visit if you're interested in art. The frescoes on the walls, frescoes or paintings on the walls are amazing in Pampé, and even though they were covered with lava, they are actually maintained. So it's just a beautiful place to visit. They have amphora and all kinds of glass and things that were found there. So Pampé is perfect for historical buffs or art historians. And then in terms of holidays. Think of the islands of Capri, Porosida, Ischia. Those are three beautiful islands that are at the Archipelago off the coast. They're actually in the Gulf of Naples. So if you're a sailor, those are amazing places to sail. I love sailing, so I've sailed around those amazing islands. I think the Blue Lagoon or the Blue Grotto, I think it's called in Capri. So that's a really, really beautiful place. Naples. If you love pizza, there's no greater place for pizza than Naples. Pizza actually, I believe, came from Naples. So Neapolitan pizza is the most famous pizza in the world. So those are kind of if you're a food person, if you're a historian, if an art historian, a sailor. Also, Campania has the largest kind of private villa estate in Italy. It's called La Regia di Cazerta. Cazerta is a town in Campania, and it's kind of the Italian version of Versailles. I think they have either, I think they have 600 rooms and a gorgeous garden, so that's a really fun place to visit as well. So if you had a friend who had never tasted wine from Campania before, without thinking too hard, what would you choose for them to try? Well, one thing when you think about the wines from Campania is most of them are indigenous varieties. And what does that mean? They are native grapes that grow only in Italy. So there are three whites, Falinguina, Fiano, and Greco. And then the Italian red grape from Campania, which they're very famous for is called Alianico, which makes a beautiful red wine. - I love indigenous grapes as listeners of this podcast are aware. And it's really fun to learn about a region where they really still have continued to specialize in those without losing sight of the riches of the local products, which is really cool. So within Italy, relative to the other wine regions, how would you place Campania in terms of number of vineyards, the quantity and quality of the wines and the wines influence and reputation, like historic versus today? Okay, so historically, the wines from Campania were the most famous wines in Italy because the wines from Campania has been making wines for 2 ,000 years and during the Roman era, the Romans drank wine not from Lazio, but from Campania. So the wines that the Romans were drinking were wines from Campania. So they are 2 ,000 years of history. So that's the historical answer. Today, many people who have tasted Italian wines, the first wines that they taste were wines from a place called Vesuvius, which is the volcano. And those were the wines that were covered in lava. Maybe you saw those bottles in the past. Maybe you're too young. But they had these bottles that were covered in kind of sparkly and interesting, and it was called Vesuvius Bianco and Rosso white and red. And those were a lot of wines they would see in wine in restaurants here in New York City because a lot of people who emigrated from Italy emigrated to America from Campania. It's a region where a lot of people emigrated in the 1960s and way earlier actually. I do find that when I meet people in New York, or from Italian families, they are often from Naples. They're often from Naples. They're from a province called Benevento, a lot of people who are in the New York region. I don't think it's the same in other areas, but a lot of people from that region immigrated here or from Sicily, here meaning New York City. So what about a few statistics or amount of wine in relation to all the 20 regions. I'm looking around for my actual documents that will tell me the exact percentage which I have here, but I think they might be the eighth largest wine region in terms of exporting wines, but I'm not sure of that number. The first that four largest regions are, you know, Puglia, Sicily, I believe, Emilia Romagna, and the Veneto. So it's not in the top four, but it is definitely in the top 10 for a number of reasons because they make all of these really famous grape varieties, the white grape varieties that are ones that can age, which maybe we'll go into later. And Taorazi and made from Arlianico is also very famous and has been historically. So they have been exported for many, many years because they are producers in Campania who've been exporting to the United States for a long, long time, many decades. - I really love wine for teaching me so much about history and Campania strikes me as so rich in history. Besides Pompeii, and you told us already about wine going back to Roman times, are there some other historic stories about wine making in Campania that spring to mind? - Sure, well, I mean, one of the interesting things when you look at wine regions in Italy are the soils. So there are two kind of really interesting facts about soils in Campania. So one is that there are parts of Campania that have grape varieties and grape vines that are growing on their own rootstocks. What does that mean? That means that the pest called phylloxera, which destroyed all of the vineyards in France in the late 1800s and also destroyed some vineyards in regions in Italy, did not reach some parts of Campania. So you can find grape varieties in Campania that are over 100 years old on their own rootstocks, which is really exciting. That's not something you see in every region. So I think that's one fact that's very interesting in terms of viticulture in Campania. Another– - Oh, I just wanted to say that Phylloxer is one of the most interesting stories and wine history for me. And what I understand about this tiny little bug that no one could see, no one knew what was going on for the longest time. It just has trouble moving through certain soils. The solution was actually digging up every vine, every European vine, and grafting every vine onto an American vine species rootstock, which is not harmed by the phylloxera, which attacks just the roots of the vine. But not every indigenous grape took to grafting. And so I think, I didn't occur to me before, but I think that may be part of the story for the continuous commitment to indigenous grapes in this region because they were able to continue on their own rootstocks, do you suppose? - It's possible. I do know, I'm thinking the grape, actually I'm thinking this one winery and this one grapevine, this photo that I saw, this amazing Alianico variety that was growing on its own rootstocks. I know that Alianico in other parts has been grafted onto an American rootstock in other areas, but what you were saying earlier about the soils, so when there's a lot of sand in the soils, phylloxera does not attack the vine. So in some of these soils, there was a lot of vines. Another really interesting story, which I just remember it and I learned about really recently, is these grape varieties that grew on trees. So there's two areas in Campania that have this. So one is an area called Anversa, and the grape variety that grows there is called Asprinio. Asprinio makes amazing, fun, like pet net and sparklers that are really fun wines and their grape varieties are grown onto trees. And so they're called vite maritate, which means like they're married, that means they're married and that means they're married to the grape to a tree. And so they grow up the tree vine to like 20 feet in the air. And that's really an exciting part of kind of viticultural history and campania. Another one is this group group of grapevines which I discovered recently or I didn't discover them but I learned about them recently that grow in the area of Taurasi. Taurasi is in an area called Irpina. Irpina is part of Campania that's very, very interesting because it's actually hilly and green and you can ski in parts of Irpina. Many people were not aware that there were parts of Campania that were in the mountains and that it gets cold. But in Erpina, it does get cold and you can ski. And in Taurasi, which is in Erpina, this province, this region, actually the province is Avelino, they grow on these high kind of pergolas and they're called the patriarchs. They're called Ipatriarchi and they're very high up and they've been like that for over a hundred years. And so many of these producers have these amazing grapevines that grow up to maybe 15 meters. And they grow up to that level so that there were kind of three levels of things. So they had grapevines that grow under the grapevines, they grew fruit trees, and under that they had animals. So it was kind of a system of farming within the last 100 years. and some of them have been taken away or grubbed up, but many people still have these amazing, you know, really high -up grapevines called the patriarchs. That is such an amazing piece of living history, and I just learned about that from you when we met recently at the Eropenia event that you organized. I did an interview with two amazing women that I met at Susanna's Eropenia event that she organized with the producers from Eropenia, Teresa Sabrina and Ilaria Petito and you can go back to listen to their interview which was one of the first episodes of Moto T Berry so check that out find out more about your Pina. I learned about those patriarchs from you but I had heard about the Aspreño and had tasted those wines before and yeah they have these really tall skinny ladders that are a little dangerous. They have to harvest the grapes and then pass the grapes down in these kind of baskets. It's so fascinating and you know, all over Italy back in the day when people really did make their economy through farming, I am one of my favorite terms is the term for this mixed agricultural non -monoculture planting of these mixed farms, which is actually promiscuous agriculture promiscuous. So that's a fun vocabulary word from farm history in Italy. Agreed. Agreed. I love that you're a map nerd. That's just what I need for the Boot in 20 series. Could you take our listeners through an overview of the DOC's and DOCG's from Campania, but first just very briefly, could you explain those two terms? Sure. Okay, so there are two important terms that people use when they talk about quality wines. The first is C, which stands for denominazione d 'origine controllata, so DOC, and the second one is DOCG, which is denominazione d 'origine controllata e garantita, and that means that it has a further level of quality status guaranteed, that's what the G stands for. So these two terms are given to wine regions that have been growing grapes in a certain way of a certain kind for a long period of time. So before you can become a DOCG, you have to have been a DOC for at least 10 years. And this is true everywhere in Italy. So you probably know about famous denominations like Barolo or Brunello, but before they got DOCG status. They also were DOC's. So going back to Campania, within Campania there are four very famous DOCG wines. Two are white wines. So one is Greco di Tufo. Tufo is an area and Greco is a particular wine that comes from this area of Tufo and that's a DOCG wine. Then we have Fiano de Bellino, another DOCG wines. Both of these wines come from the area of Irpina that Rose and I keep talking about. Then we have Taurasi, which is also a DOCG. Taurasi is made from Alianico. There is another area in the saño, which is a different part of campania that's called alianico del tamburno, and that's also a DOCG. So there are four DOCG areas that wines are under this denomination, and it means that they are grown in a certain way, they have kind of strict rules in terms of their yields, their harvesting, other specifications and you can find the fact that they are a DOC wine on their labels and on the top of the bottle they usually have a brown label with a code that comes from the National Registry so you can actually physically look at a label and understand if it's a DOC G wine or a DOC wine because it's always listed on the label and you can download the legislative rules generally from what are known as consortium. So consortium is a group of producers that get together and maintain the specifications and the rules of a region. So there are these four DOCG wines and there are many DOC wines. So Falinguina, which is a really great, fun, white grape variety that comes from Campania that you can find in a still or sparkling version. There are great ones that are here, available in the United States. It's, I think, an easy drinking wine, compared to maybe fian or greco for even people who are not so sure about acidity. I find, really, take to phylogena immediately. Phylogena is not yet a DOCG wine. It's a DOC. So that's an example of a wine that's a DOC. So In terms of the legislation, DOCs and DOCGs are a nomenclature that are used in Italy. It's the same as the system in France that was called the AOCs, or in Spain, they have DOs. And all of these DOCGs or DOCs in Italy have their counterpart in European regulations, which would be under the PDO. But in Italy, you're allowed to keep using DOC and DOCGs. And there are not that many DOCGs, I believe, as of today, there are 74 or 75\. - You know, I recently looked at these statistics. I think it's up to 78 now. - Wow, okay, that's interesting. - It's just so much changing all the time. And then this has to do with these consortia, agitating to keep these things really up to date. The idea of regulations can sound kind of boring, but it's not boring at all at Italy. And what I see when I think about these things, especially with some of these consortia, having met some of these people, they're just working so hard to just make the best wine and to really constantly, and it's not easy, the bureaucracy is really slow moving, but they really work to update the stuff just to make sure that the wines from this region are both the best quality of possible and recognized in the best way. Agreed. Also, and I mean in memory that it's Earth Week this week, it's almost April 22nd in the year that we're recording this. These consortium also tend to be the kind of organization that can push sustainability and social responsibility. So these consortium are great because they can impact a lot of producers in terms of the rules that they put into play. If you want one of these labels on your wines, you have to follow certain specifications. So it's also good for Planet Earth to have these consortium watching out for the vineyards and their producers. And, you know, there's a lot of good also for us consumers so that we are drinking wines that are what they say they are. - Yes. - Right? You know, we don't wanna drink something that's not actually from where it's listed on the label or something that is similar to but not what we're really looking for. So, you know, it's important. These consortium are very important. - Yes, and before the DOC, DOC juice system, which now can be called the DOP system under a new term that, again, is kind of useful to talk about the wines that are elevated over the IGT or vino di tavolo, which are kind of the lower levels of labeling. You can say 43 % of Italian wine is DOP. So it can be useful, but I feel that my understanding is that Italy's invested so much in the DOC versus DOCG system that they're very invested in using those terms and continue to use them as they are still allowed to do. - Yes, no, they've invested a lot. Also, I mean, I got my diploma from I used the Italian sommelier society in 2004\. And at that time there were 34 DOCGs. So it's a lot of DOCG inflation because of different changes within European, European laws. And also, it's a way of kind of signaling, we have a special wine, let's say Tintilla in Molise, for example, it's a great variety that a lot of people who are wine geeks know comes from Molise. They don't have a DOCG wine yet, but I'm sure they will one day, and when they do, it will be that variety so that people can associate it with that country just as we associated Carmenier with Chile or Malbec with Argentina after a while, right? It's also a tool to sort of get your region on the map. Yes, and I think a lot of people probably don't remember or aren't old enough to remember what drinking wine was like from Italy before the DOC system was created in like the '60s, you know, you really didn't know what you were gonna get in some cases, so. - Even I don't remember that, so, yes, no. - Yes, to our drinkers from the '50s, please write in and tell us all about your experiences with Italian bulk wine in the '50s. - Of course, now we have to talk, 'cause you brought this up, now we have to talk about the fact that there are IGT wines in Italy that that are really, really famous outside of the system. And that is actually true in Campania. I'm gonna bring it back to Campania. So there's a really, really famous wine producer from Campania whose name is Sylvia Amparato, who's a really lovely lady who does make wines with a blend of international and indigenous grape varieties. And so she is out of the DOC system and she makes them under IGT. And just saying her name so that we can talk about IGTs rather than anything else because there are also a lot of producers who choose to make a wine under IGT because, which is Indicazione Geografica Tipica and that just means indication of typical geographical I think order. And they do that because they want to make a wine that's slightly out of the rules and so they're allowed to do that to. Yeah, it really does make space for everybody, and I think Americans especially enjoy those kind of regulatory rebellion stories, but those systems do talk to each other and will eventually influence the slower -moving DOC. Well, there's nobody more rebellious than Italians. A saying that I love, it's "fattola regola, trovilingano," which means, you know, you create a rule and then you find the way around it. I mean, there's I mean, there's a lot in that country that would agree with that. - I love it. Thank you for sharing a saying. I didn't make time for that at the beginning because we had so much to cover. So thank you for making sure we got a local saying as well as a local saying. - I don't know that it's local from Campania. It's just Italian in general. I was thinking of what the Italian sayings are from Campania. So the accent from Campania is also something to think about. I mean, it's really, really fun and interesting, but it's very difficult for a non -Neapolitan to use. And oh, you know, just because you're a musician, Rose, there are great musicians from Campania and great actors. I mean, Toto, I feel like, I think he's from Campania and Sofia Loren is from Campania and Pino Daniele is from Campania. So it's a really interesting kind of creative location as well. And yes, I have had so many delightful experiences with the dialect from Napoli and various spots in Campania. But going back to the map, maybe we can talk a little bit more about the topography. We've talked a little bit about Eropenia. So maybe we could finish covering Eropenia and then maybe move to some different regions with different climates and just to give people a picture of a few different places to drink wine from. Sure. Campania is located on the Mediterranean. It is near Rome in terms of regions and as you may know mountains run right down the center of Italy. So the Apennine mountain range runs right down the center of Italy right through Campania. So the mountains are, yes, in Erpina, whereas I mentioned you can go skiing. And then the mountains continue. So Erpina has, I mean, I'm sorry, Campania has huge coastal areas. So you have the area around Naples, which is on the coast, and you can drink great wines from there from local indigenous varieties, such as let's say Corridivolpe, which means the tail of the wolf which is another white grape variety that's really exciting from Campania and Piediroso which is a red grape variety from Campania that you'll find in some of the blends around Naples. So there are wines from Naples and the islands off of the coast of Naples are the three islands that I mentioned before So these are coastal areas. Then we have– - In Ischia, I left them away. - Ischia, and Ischia is really famous for its thermal baths. It's extremely green. It's a beautiful place to go sailing. I could say that firsthand. I don't remember going to the baths, but I know they're there. And there's a great white grape variety that grows on Ischia, which is called Bianco Lella. So imagine sitting on the coast on your boat off the coast of Ischia drinking a bottle of Bianco Leila. Sounds perfect to me. Okay, so then you go down the coast in Campania and you're on the Amalfi Coast. It could anything be more famous than the Amalfi Coast. So the Amalfi Coast, Positano, think about places like that, Rappallo, these just, you know, gorgeous places to visit. So that's a whole other part of Campania. Then you go farther down the coast to an area called Salento. A lot of American of Italian origin from Campania come from the Salento as well. In the Salento, you can find a whole bunch of grapes to drink from Avianico to these white grape varieties like Fenugina that we were talking about. I tasted some amazing funky graves from a man who grew up in Aspirinio, so he made all these interesting sparkling wines because that's what he had grown up with. In the Salento you will find another very important historical location which is called Pestum, which is also the site of kind of a volcanic explosion, ruins of volcanic In all of these places, of course, you'll also find Roman ruins everywhere you go. So that's kind of the coastal area and the coastal area around Naples. It's called the Campi Flegre, which means the Flegrean fields. And these are all for the site of former volcanoes. So there's a lot of volcanic soil in this particular region. Then we go to Vesuvius, which is the extinct volcano that exploded in 79 AD. And this is probably the most famous volcanic explosion in the world. And when it exploded, it covered not only all of Campania and all of Italy, but apparently the volcanic ash went as far as Siberia. So all throughout Italy, you will have these fine top soils that are volcanic, but the undersoils are not necessarily volcanic, right? So around Vesuvius, yes, it's volcanic, but not everywhere in Campania has deep volcanic soils. It has volcanic topsoil. - Can you talk a little bit about what volcanic soils, how would the effect they have on wine? - Sure, of course. So, and then I'll get back to the other parts of company because it's such a rich region and there's just so much to say. So what happens when a vine grows in volcanic soil? So in my experience, when you're drinking a wine that you know comes from volcanic soil, you kind of get this, what I like to say, heightened aromatics. So everything is kind of brighter, fresher, more distinct in terms of the aromas and the flavors. I find them very linear, so kind of the flavors go directly onto your mouth rather than broader, more horizontal. I'm not sure if that on the radio and podcast, that kind of description is clear, but it's really heightened aromatics. So it's everything is kind of more intense. What's your view of what volcanic soils bring? - Oh, you know, I feel like I'm always evaluating each volcanic region kind of separately according to all of the other things that go along with it. I think I'm still learning the answer to that question, but definitely it's deeper than just, oh, is this wine taste smoky? - Right, no, I don't get it, yeah. - So it's kind of the initial thought that I think people expect. Oh, no, it's not that. They think of a visual of something as like, oh, okay, you know, I'm going to be able to taste some, some kind of. No, it's not like that. I'm going to taste wet rock. I mean, you can often taste a lot of minerality, but that's the grape variety, not just necessarily the fact that it grows in volcanic soil. In my opinion, it's just kind of like a catalyst, you know, has like a catalytic effect on everything else that you're going to get in a wine. So it just kind of makes the aromatics more important and brighter. Like the fruit is brighter. Everything's kind of brighter. Also, when I think about volcanic soil, often you may be at elevation. So it's also you have to kind of figure out, am I at elevation? And what I'm tasting is the elevation rather than the soils. Like this recently I was tasting a Nero Davola, which was, you know, it's a big red grape variety from Sicily that I drink very infrequently. And it was so fresh and bright and acidic. And I said, just, you know, are you at elevation? Because this to me is like that alpine quality to a wine that, you know, is just so interesting and different from what you get. And I was like, yeah, I'm about 600 meters above sea level. So that's what I think sometimes you find in wines that grow on volcanic soils. Like think about some of the wines from Edna. Yes. What I have noticed is that I like them. If you're talking about a region in general, there's an interest. There's a kind of pizzazz. Think of wines from the Canary Islands. And a lot of times when I'm learning about something, I'll say, "Oh, wow, this is really great. What's special about this?" often the answer is a volcano. Absolutely. Which are very fun to learn about. Very fun and exciting. So let's talk about Vesuvias Vesuvius that exploded, but there are still wines and grapes growing there today. So on Vesuvius, there are two main wines that are made, and they're called lacrime di Christi, which means the tears of Christ. And one is the white, the bianco, and the other is the red. And so the white is usually made from another indigenous grape variety called chepretone that's blended. they also have other indigenous grape varieties that grow there. So it's really exciting, I think, that on this, you know, extinct volcano, they're still growing grapevine, you know, grapevines today. So those are kind of the parts of Campania, but we haven't talked at all yet about the region of Cazerta, where I told you that this Italian version of Versailles is located. So Cazerta is a really interesting little town that I got to visit a few years ago, and they make some really funky indigenous grape varieties, which I'm sure you've had, Rose, but not everybody has yet, but so there's Palagralo Bianco and Palagralo Rosso. Then they have another one called Casavecchia, which is a red wine. I personally really like Palagralo Bianco as a white grape variety, Sima Lois is a great producer of that. He's imported locally. So just some really funky grape varieties also from Cazerta. So you have all of these different regions within Campania to visit and wines to taste, whether you're tasting on the coast and the Saño is a huge area for fungina, for example, and for Alianico, which is where Benevento, the town that we There are many people from the United States, particularly from New York, who are of Italian origin, their families are from Benevento. And that's in the Saño, where you'll find Alianico del Taburno, Falenguina del Saño, and many other really lovely wines. So it's a really, really interesting area. I love Pallagrello narrow. I think a Pallagrello was one of my first southern Italian ones that really blew my mind. It's so complex. It's so fascinating. And I really made me want to find out everything. It was one of those one of my early moments. Oh, I've never heard of that before. Of course, I now know that that's going to continue for the rest of my life. For the rest of your life. I've been doing this a long time. How many great varieties are there in Italy? Oh, I know, you know, that are registered in the national registry, I think between 350 and four, but I mean, there are at least 800 or a thousand. I mean, no country has as many indigenous grape varieties as Italy does, and they're always, you know, recuing old varieties that are extinct. I just, with this tasting that I had done where for Epina, I met someone who told me about the patriarchy in Epina, those grape righties. And he also told me about a grape variety that he's just brought back, a white grape variety called Rovicello. And I think he's maybe the only producer of it. I think he has maybe one hectare, maybe two, maybe there are two people in all of the world that are growing that grape variety. So no matter how many we know, we're always going to learn something new. That's what I of a useful Italian vocabulary, Mison, Tito, I've never heard of that. - Oh, right, yes, that's your Mison. - Yes, and I like to say that Italy is kind of sommelier kryptonite. If you're the kind of sommelier that expects to master something because it's just not possible. And once you realize that, then I think the fun can begin because you can just jump in and just learn something, just start. It very much keeps you humble, but also keeps me fascinated and delighted. And I'm also always so impressed when I need someone who focuses on Italy because it really is something that is so vast. So, bravo. - I had the good fortune of living there for 15 years. So I had real firsthand experience of the whole thing. So that gives me kind of a, it gave me a leg up in sort of understanding things, because I understood it from kind of a local perspective rather than trying to learn from the outside. Like when I'm trying to learn everything about wines from Portugal, which I love and have lots of indigenous varieties and are really exciting, I don't have that same kind of like, oh, I remember when my friend talked about that or they brought that, you know, for a holiday. So it's just, I think it's just time and as you say, love and you know, interest because it's really exciting to find things that are new and different and they're all really delicious. I mean, that's at the end of the day, what matters, right? These are great, great varieties and just a plug for these wines from Campania, they are these whites and reds that I mentioned are even wines that you can And so there are wines you can sell or and keep, you know, you could buy a six pack of something today and drink a couple now, drink a couple in 10 years and keep some for an occasion in 15 or 20\. So Alianico is really a grape variety that can age as can fiano and greco, two of Italy's white grape varieties that are really age worthy wines that change over time and just reveal the beauty that they have in them. - It's fantastic. So going back to those kind of main Campania varieties that you brought up at the beginning of the show, tell us a little bit about what those wines taste like, generally. - Sure. So let's start with Falanguina because it's the most approachable, I think, for a younger demographic. And it's a little sweeter, in my opinion, often the way it's vinified. People identify it maybe a little bit, you know, extra more extra dry if they're doing, let's say a Charmotte method or, you know, just a still white wine to drink for the summer. So Phalangina is fresh with its sparkling. It's usually made in the Charmotte method. So the same method of Prosecco is made in the tank rather than the traditional method. It is fresh, it has, you know, light bubbles, it's got a lot of white fruit on it, and I find it very floral. I really like phalanguina, especially as the summer is coming, you know, I could probably drink a whole bottle soon. I mean, it's a little early here today, but you know, the more we talk about this, I'm thinking, oh, so that's phalanguina. Then the other two white grape varieties are fiano and greco. So fiano de villino is one of, I think, Italy's finest white wines, absolutely. And fiano is apparently the part of the blend of the wine that was most famous in Roman times called falernium. And fiano is a really interesting grape that apparently bees like to eat a lot. So it's very sweet as the grape itself. Fiano also has this beautiful kind of bitter finish, which I find on Italian wines, this kind of almondy note that I love, and that if you're doing a blind tasting, it's like you taste a fan, and you're like, oh, I know that's either a fiano or a greco because of that great bitterness at the end. And so you can kind of, you know, get that in a parlor game, right? So fiano, I think, is very structured. And as it ages, it gets a little bit petrally. It gets a little more of this bitter almond note. It just reveals beautiful layers of kind of hazelnuts and everything that really makes you want to drink that wine or at least makes me want to drink that wine. Greco is the first grape variety that actually ever made me cry. I remember I was drinking tasting a fiano at the Cappagna Pavilion in Vignette only one year. And I like felt ridiculous. I'm like, with this producer, I barely know, you know, and I find a little tear is kind of dripping down my eye and I thought, I'm just ridiculous that I moved by this great Friday, but this is a true story. And so Greco is kind of everything I said about piano, less bitter and more minerality, more salinity, sort of a lot of kind of texture on it and just beautiful, beautiful, beautiful white wines that can age, you know, and are made in these amazing, Greco only grows in eight towns in Campania, you know, amazing history, much smaller production than Fiano, which also grows on they think in 29 towns, 26 maybe, but you know, not so many, but Greco only comes from these eight areas Greco di Tufo. So beautiful, beautiful wines, both of them. And then so before we move to the red, I just want to say that I also cried at the Italy. Not from wine from Campania. Unfortunately, for today, it was a Ribola Jala, a skin contact from Slovenia. And I was standing there was the last day, I think, so much had been happening. We didn't even run into each other. The wine fair is huge. And, you know, it was kind of a rock star wine that I tried before and knew was good. I was completely unprepared to just be weeping in the hall. So I think, I think the Italians would approve of our show of emotion. We're the only ones who feel silly about it. Yeah, it was, yeah, I tasted a lot of ribola gel. I went to the Slovenian area too, I love those wines. Really fun, really, really fun wines. And so these wines from Campania, really amazing, amazing wines, lots of great producers, many small, some, a couple a couple really big powerhouses in the region, but many, many small and generally family run wineries. Campania has fewer cooperative wineries than some other regions in Italy. There are a couple of co -ops and I'm all for co -ops. I am not against cooperative winemaking. It's a social tradition of Italy, 55 % of Italian viticulture is made with through co -ops. co -op, so it's a really big part of their industry. But in Campania, it's mostly family -run wineries and many that have been the same family for hundreds of years. - So many generations back. - Yeah, many generations. So those are the whites, the main whites. And then we have Alianico. So Alianico should absolutely be considered one of Italy's best red wine grape varieties. It's together with San Givese and Nebiolo. It is the red grape variety of the South, in my opinion. It has loads of spice and pepper and at times kind of leathery animal skin notes. It depends on how it's vinified, of course. It's beautiful. It can age. I find that some producers are making much more approachable versions today than they did in the past. So you don't have to wait 10 years. Yeah, there's a lot of tanning on Yannico, but it is just a really beautiful, exciting, and I think sexy wine. I mean, I really, I really love Yannico 'cause it also has a lot of acidity and minerality for a red wine. - One of my favorite wine stories is the fact that, you know, here's this Southern Italian wine and during France's problems with phylloxera but also just other moments when they felt like their wines need a little boost they weren't ripe enough. Back before there were these regulations that strictly controlled where your wine was from there was this shipping of the Alianico to France to correct the vintage. Yeah there's a lot of shipping of Italian wine to France in the past yes to correct their wine a lot. Yes an Alianico because of its wonderful deep color and structure and big, big fruit. It's a big, big wine. I understand that there are three main terroirs for Alianico, one of them is in Basilicata. Between the two that are in Campania, could you compare and contrast briefly? Sure. I asked this question of some producers recently and they gave me their answer. I asked Claudio and Gianluigi, and they both answer me. - From your pinia, Claudio? - Yes. - Oh, I just, I ran into him on the– - I love him. So, yes, Alianico grows both in Campania and in Basilicata, Alianico del Vultore, which is also amazing. I tasted some great ones, especially from Elena Fucci at Upper Hawaii, in Vinita this year. But there are different clones, also of Alianico, so it's not just the terroir, it's also which clones they're using. So there are different clones of alianico, and that's one of the differences between alianico that grows in Taurasi, let's say, and alianico del taburno, which is in the Sanyu region, but it's really the terroir. So they're pretty similar in terms of their grapes, the form of the grape variety and the structure of the grape, but there are two different biotypes apparently from what they say. So in Taburno, they actually have a lower yield than in Taurasi, which is interesting. The Dio Cigi in Taburno, the province is actually Benevento and the area is called Sanyo, But the aging of the Taurasi is much longer than Alianico del Tamburno, which is the main difference, the aging. So aging, the clones that they use, and of course the terroir, is slightly different. So get yourself an Alianico from these two different regions, which are called Alianico del Tamburno, which is in the province of Benevento and Taurasi, which is in the province of Avelino, but the area is called Irpigna for Taurasi and the Saño for Alianico del Taburno. - So that's your homework. Buy those wines, drink them side by side, and then write to us at Moto Dewberry and tell us what you thought the difference was between the wines. - Great. - So moving into the future of Campania thinking about what their challenges and opportunities are maybe in the market with worldwide recognition but also in terms of climate change with this indigenous grape culture there can you speak a little bit to the power of indigenous grapes in this moment of climate change? Okay so big topics so in this moment of climate change I think the question behind your question is, are they going to change for more disease resistant varieties, which a lot of regions have to do. I don't think that that's what they're going to do in Campania, because these great varieties have grown in this terroir forever. And in terms of climate change, some of the areas, for example, in Pina, has a lot of elevation possibilities, so they can grow higher, right? They can grow up, which is one of the problems. So the vineyards that are closer to the sea have, you know, a lot more problems because of the rising sea levels. So what will happen there? I am not sure, but you know, hopefully producers are moving towards more sustainable practices and their vineyards. And a lot of that will hopefully mitigate some of the impacts of climate change. I think also they have to harvest earlier, even earlier than before. Perhaps they have to change slightly the style of the wines that they're growing. I doubt that they're going to grow up their indigenous varieties and plant disease resistant new hybrid varietals. I don't see that. I'm actually thinking more of Campania, since they've really continuously honored those indigenous varieties even planted on their own wood stock with the old vines and the old training systems, I wonder if that institutional knowledge of vine varieties could be transferred to other places. And I wonder if Alianico, for instance, could be seen in other terroirs where they have to change the variety that they're growing. Well, I mean, that absolutely, I could see that. Also, Arlianico grows not just in Basilicata. It's most famous in Basilicata, but you'll find it in Puglia. You'll find it in Molise. I haven't seen Arlianico in Abruzzo, but it's entirely possible that it will also grow in other places. Yes, I definitely think that people can learn from what's happening in Campania because they are still very close to their origins as farmers, right? There's a lot of that and a lot of handworked and difficult soils and difficult problems. The one thing I can say about people from Campania and Irpina in general, Irpina was the home of a horrific earthquake in the 1980s where thousands of people were killed and the entire town So they're really hearty people and resilient. I think they're really very resilient people. So, you know, I bet on them. - Yes, I would too, I would too. What advice do you have for someone who's dreaming about planning a trip to Campania? - Oh, get your ticket right now and be adventurous. So go visit Naples and have Neapolitan pizza and go visit. So in Naples there's a culture of interest in death and skulls and you know everything that has to do with cemeteries and it's really kind of not morbid but exciting. They just kind of live with that as part of life which of course it is. And so there's these amazing tours of kind of the catacombs of Naples to go it. And if you're interested in the crush, for example, there are streets within Naples where they make figures for the crush for holidays that are famous throughout the world. There's also streets in Naples that are amazingly famous for beautiful ties. I mean, it's a fantastic, exciting city. So I would go to Naples for a couple of days. Then I would definitely try to go to the islands off of Naples, Capri, Prasiden, Ischia, if you have time and you should make time. Of course, you should go to the Amalfi Coast if you have the ability. And I would visit Pompeii immediately. It's really exciting. I had a fantastic time. I can't wait to take my son to visit Pompeii. It's a really interesting place to visit. And then if you have even more time or on a second trip, I would make plans to go to Caserta and visit the Reggio di Caserta, which is the Versailles of Italy. And I would visit that area, and I would visit Erpigna, and I would go to some of these wineries and the Michelin star restaurants that are located there. And maybe I'd go skiing, depending on the time of year. So I really think that Campania merits one, one, two, three, four, five vacations. I mean, honestly, you could spend the rest of your life only going on vacation in Italy and always be happy. - I understand, Susanna, that you offer individual client services to people who are learning about wine, building their wine collections and planning vacations to Italy. I'm sold, I want your advice. Tell us more about your work and how our listeners can contact you for advice. - Sure, so I have worked with Italy or about Italy for a really long time and it is my passion so I do a couple of different things for companies or wineries or regions I can represent you I can do presentations I can translate for your producers I can organize trips in the United States and different kinds of events for consumers I can help you plan your trip I can help you fill your wine cellar I can help you create your restaurant list if you want and you know, if we're really want to have a fun time, we can also do Italian lessons about grapes and you know, lessons about Italian wine. So I do that too. And I have a company called Vignetto, V -I -G -N -E -T -O Communications and it's .com. You can find me there. I also write a blog called Avinare. Avinare means to pour wine into your glass and swirl it around to prepare your glass to receive more wine. And that's A -V -V -I -N -A -R -E. I'm on Instagram. You can find me on Facebook. And you can DM me and or contact Rose and she can help you find me. And Susanna, you also have a podcast. Please tell us where people listen. I do. So I have a podcast, you can get it wherever you get your podcasts. I'm on Apple, I'm on Spotify, but I uploaded it to Podbean, actually, was where I have my podcast and it's called Vignetto, just like my company, and the first series I did was called the Sustainability Series, and I did it with Sunny Gandara, who is a natural wine expert, and we talked all about sustainability with different people in the industry coming at it from different angles. So that was really interesting. And then I did a second series on wine books. Yes, thank you so much for giving us this this knowledge today. I can't wait to have you back on the show and just ask you some more questions. Like what was it like becoming one of the only non -Italian AIS sommeliers? Do you have the outfit? I have so many questions for you. next time I'll wear it 100 % if it still fits. I find the air in the United States, this makes you fat compared to Italy. You know, you just move to Italy and you're like, oh, okay. It fits the mountains. It's the mountains. It's just the air you breathe. But yes, I have the outfit. I have my testive. I always wear my little clip. Yeah, it was one of the proudest moments of my life, to be honest. I love those sommeliers, just watching them doing the synchronizing pouring. Oh yeah, they're amazing. - Yeah, the first time I encountered this and just seeing everybody with these long aprons that kind of look like a monk's skirt and this wonderful, almost like this medallion. And I think the first time I saw one of these people, I thought that someone was just really bringing some amazing goth style to the vintage affair. And I said, "Oh, good for you dressing up." And then I realized, "No, this is a thing." - This is a thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, really proud of that. Actually, it was my, yeah, I mean, I usually have my friend's certificate somewhere in my house. Anyway, yeah, very proud moment of my life and whenever you want, I'll put on the outfit and show you. Thank you so much, Susanna. Thank you. Thank you to all of our listeners. Go get yourself some wands from Campania, book your ticket and wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. - Absolutely, thank you. (upbeat music) - Follow MotoDBariate on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok for even more unique and encouraging drinks and language content. If you'd love for the show to continue and grow, support MotoDBariate on Patreon and unlock bonus episodes. Find out more at MotoDBariate .com, where you can also read the blog. Music for the podcast was composed by Arcilia Prosperi and performed by the band OU. You can purchase their recordings at OUMusic .BandCamp .com. (upbeat music) Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ The Most Multi-Lingual Band? ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e11-ersilia-prosperi-and-amy-denio-ou/) [ Language is a Door ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e9-lindsay-spzer-part-2/) ### ▷S1E10 Lo Stivale in 20: Campania (con Susannah Gold) URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e10-lo-stivale-in-20-campania-susannah-gold/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:23:56.000Z La educatrice di vino Susannah Gold presenta i suoi vecchi amici Aglianico, Fiano, Greco e Falanghina, insieme a diversi vitigni. Susannah e Rose Thomas discutono del fattore vulcanico in una regione dove un bicchiere di vino racconta ancora la storia di quel giorno a Pompei dell'anno 79\. Questa è la prima puntata di una nuova sottoserie educativa, Lo Stivalo in 20\. Rose Thomas intervisterò una esperta di ciascuna delle 20 regioni vinicole italiane. Susannah Gold è autrice della sua propria podcast [Vigneto Podcast](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/vigneto-a-podcast/id1566567910?ref=mododibere.com) dove recensisce libri sul vino e parla di sostenibilità. Susannah tiene un blog meraviglioso: [Avvinare](https://avvinare.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Puoi seguire Susannah su Instagram [@vignetocomms](https://www.instagram.com/vignetocomms/?ref=mododibere.com). Susannah offre molti servizi diversi ai produttori di vino e ai consumatori attraverso il suo sito web [www.susannahgold.com](https://susannahgold.com/?ref=mododibere.com). [Ascolta in inglese / Listen in English](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast-en/s1e10/boot-in-20/campania/susannah-gold) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)La gente è completamente differente in un 'altra lingua. Sì, lo amo. Sì, è molto interessante. È completamente differente in un 'altra lingua. Sono un 'altra persona totalmente differente in italiano che io in inglese. che vuol dire codo della volpe, un altro bianco che apprettone che si trova sul Vissuvio, nel Vissuvio bianco nel blend che fanno. Poi ci sono nel caserta questa altra zona, questa altra provincia, una campagna super interessante e ci sono tre litigni ottotoni che non avevo mai provato. Benvenuti a Modo di Bere Italiano, parkest sui bevande locali ed etti locali. Sono la condutrice Rose Thomas Bannister. Oggi io sono onorata di intervistare Susana Gold sul tema della campagna e un 'appuntata speciale, la prima di una nuova serie educativa "Los divalov inventi". Per questa serie intervisterò una esperta di ciascuna delle venti regioni viniccole italiane. Parleremo di storia regionale, sfide e opportunità nel presente e nel futuro, terreno, clima, vittini e vini, leggi sul vino e consigli su come visitare. Che tu abbia appena iniziato con il vino italiano o che tu sia un fanta anni, una cosa che ho imparato e che può sempre approfondire l 'Italia, c 'è sempre sempre di più da imparare. Perfetto per la programma, poiché il moto di modo di bere italiano è provare cose nuove, divertirsi e non smettere mai ti imparare. Prima di introdurre la campagna vorrei presentare Susana Gold. Susana è una americana scrittrice, elcatrice è brand ambassador con una bellissima attenzione al vino italiano. is one of the only non -Italian in ICE, the Italian association Sommelier. Susanna has earned a diploma in Wine and Spirits with Wine and Spirits Educational Trust. She is an Italian wine ambassador and she has a variety of certifications from the Society of Wine Educators e dalla Wine Scholars Guild, la prima cosa che ho imparato il suo Susana è che le sue qualifiche entrano a Marapena sul retro del suo abilietto da visita. La seconda cosa che ho imparato è che lei è un 'elucatrice generosa, gentile e efficace. Mi è piaciuto conoscendo il vino da lei in varie occasioni e sono entusiasta di Portale Nello Show. Susana, benvenuta. Grazie Ros, mi lo zinga essere qua se è molto carina questa introduzione delle mie qualifiche. Più che altro amo l 'Italia e credo che si capisce Prima di iniziare l 'intervista voglio chiedere ai nostri ascoltatori se ti piace la programma. C 'è una bevanda locale o un detto locale della tua paese che vorresti che coprissi? Per favore, raccontamelo. Poi inviarmi un mensaggio tramite il mio sito web www .mododibere .com dove puoi anche iscriverti alla newsletter oppure inviarmi un DM a mododibere su Instagram. Non vero l 'ora di sentirti. Susana, campagna. Iniziamo con le basi. Dove si trova la campagna in Italia e per cosa è famosa la campagna oltre ai suoi vini? Allora l 'Italia è lunga come si sa e può essere divisa in tre regioni macro. L 'Italia del nord centrale e l 'Italia del sud. Campagna si trova nella Italia del Sud. Campagna è una delle venti regioni d 'Italia e accanto alla regione del Lazio, Campagna è accanto al mare mediterraneo, per cui ha una lunghissima costa. È una regione molto storica e famoso da più di 2000 anni per molti motivi, non solo del vino. Campania è famosissimo per un sito archeologico che si chiama Pompeii, che sono sicura che tuoi ascoltatori hanno sentito parlare di Pompeii, che era una città che è stata coperta del lava, dell 'esplosione del vissuvio che ha avuto luogo nel 79 a .C., è stata un 'esplosione pazzesca e più grande nella storia o almeno il più famoso nella storia d 'umanità che ha coperto completamente con lava questa città che si chiama Pompeii dove hanno fatto i scavi e adesso oggi da molti anni si può visitare Pompeii che è una zona dove adesso le famiglie vanno con i bambini piccoli o non piccoli o quelli che sono interessati nell 'arte o l 'archaeologia, la storia. Per cui Pompeii sicuramente è una zona archeologica interessante, come storia. Un altro motivo per cui la gente sicuramente ha sentito parlare di la campagna è perché è la zona natale della pizza, no? Cioè tutti noi mangiamo la pizza, praticamente tutti noi, non conosco nessuno che non mangia la pizza, la pizza ha avuto origine a Napoli, la pizza napolitana, è quella pizza buonissima che adesso si può anche trovare negli Stati Uniti per fortuna. Poi la campagna è famosa anche per le isole, le famosissime isole come Capri, Proci da Ischia e anche per esempio soffia Loren che viene dalla campagna o Pino Daniele che è un musicista famosissimo? Se tu avessi un amico che non aveva mai assaggiato vino campano prima e dovessi iniziare con due tre vini senza pensarci troppi quali sierresti per farli provare. Allora si posso dire tre bianchi e un rosso. Allora i tre bianchi sono dei vittini che vengono dalla campagna, che sono nati in campagna e non vengono dall 'estra, per cui sono vittini indigioni. Allora, fiano, greco, falinghina per i bianchi e poi grande rosso a rianico. In Italia, rispetto alle altre regioni viniccole, Come collegherebbe la campagna in termini di numero di vignetti, quantità e qualità dei vini, influenza e reputazione dei vini, sia nella storia che oggi? Allora, come credo che ho detto, almeno nella versione inglese, non l 'ho detto ancora nella versione italiana, la campagna è famosa da 2000 anni perché i romani bevevano i vini campani, per cui tutti i vini che bevevano quelli più famosi, quelli più ricercati dei Romani erano vini campani, per cui 2 .000 anni che sono famosi. Poi negli Stati Uniti sono famosi da molti anni perché la campagna è un luogo da dove molti hanno emigrati, emigrato, per cui i New Yorkesi, per esempio, d 'origine italiana, vengono della provincia di Napoli o di Bervento, per cui c 'è molta storia dei vittini e vini italiani qui negli Stati Uniti. Non so esattamente nella qualifica se la campagna sta all 'ottavola a diecimo posto, non è nei primi quattro in termini di quantità. I primi quattro sono la Veneto, Puglia, la Sicilia e penso l 'Emilia -Romagna di quantità, di qualità, sicuramente la campagna è tra i primi, magari non i primi due che sono quelli più conosciuti, magari la Toscana e Piamonte, però la campagna non è molto lontano, perché ha dei vini ottimi, ottimi anche di qualità qualità prezzo. Amo davvero il vino per avermi insegnato così tanto sulla storia e quali anecdotti storici ti ricorda la campagna? La campagna per esempio è un posto molto famoso anche per la reggia di Caserta che è un luogo come il Versailles di Campagna, è un palazzo più grande, più storico in termini di nobiltà, bisogna ricordare anche che la campagna ha avuto tutta la storia del regno di Sicilia, per cui ha anche una storia molto complicata, complesso di nobiltà europeo e importante, in cui si bevevano molti vini importanti. Poi, se abbiamo parlato di Vissuvio che è esploso nel 79 a .C., abbiamo parlato di Pompeii, abbiamo ancora parlato di Pestum che è un 'altra zona della campagna famosa per una città coperta di lava, altri importanti notizie nella storia del vino è che Taurasi per esempio è una storia molto lunga in termini di conoscenza e qualità per come zona di vitini rusci, cioè di un vitino rosso, cioè aglianico, è la zona del sud Italia che era il più conosciuto in termine di qualità. Parliamo anche di due modi storici di coltivare la pianta. Allora, il primo era e in un posto che si chiama Anversa, dove si fa crescere un vittigno che si chiama Asprigno. Asprigno è un vittigno bianco molto storico di questa zona che è sopra caserta e Asprigno ha questa storia, questo modo di crescere in cui il vittigno stesso cresce tipo fino a 20 metri o 10 metri, 20 feet, in cui è attaccato a un albero, si chiama "vite maritate". In questo caso maritate mi è sposato. Il vittigno viene sposato ad un albero per far crescere e per andare molto in alto. E bisogna usare queste scale lunghissime e finissime, per me è un po' pericolosi, per andare su e raccogliere l 'uva, il frutto. E da questo uva che viene raccolto che si chiama "Sprigno" si fa del vino che è tipo uno storico metodo ancestrale, un pet nut, sparkling, molto interessante se hai mai l 'occasione di assaggiarlo prova perché è super interessante sia questo amore di vitricoltura che anche del vitigno stesso cioè del gusto del vino Poi c 'è in Taurasi che ci sono questi, quest 'altro modo di far crescere i vitini che si chiamano i patriarchi, che sono questi vitini storici, che sono anche 100 anni, in cui il vitino cresce, è attaccato e cresce fino a 10 feet sopra il suolo e sotto ci sono altri 3 -4 livelli di culture che sia cultura di altri alberi di frutta che poi sotto quello altri vegetali e sotto quello gli animali e questo vittu cultura promesco come tu hai giustamente ramentato nell 'altra versione che abbiamo fatto è una cultura in cui il contedino poteva far crescere in molte cose diverse, ho scoperto recentemente di questi patriarchy durante un evento che ho fatto per l 'Irpigna perché non avevo mai sentito parlare per una netto storico molto interessante, poi c 'è anche da dire che in Campania ci sono dei vittini che hanno più di 100 anni che crescono il proprio piedi franco, cioè sui loro stessi radici non sono inestate con il porto innesso americano, crescono da soli e spesso questo accade quando c 'è sabbia nel suolo e possono crescere in questo modo perché Filossera non è mai arrivata in questa zona della campagna. Sono affascinante della storia dei vittini attoctani in campagna particolarmente. Voglio aiutare i gli ascoltatori a ottenere una bella panoramica del D .O .C. e D .O .C .G. della Coppania. Certo, allora ci sono questi quattro D .O .C .G. tra i della quale ho già menzionato, fiano di Evelino, D .O .C .G., che viene dell 'Erpigna, la provincia di Evelino, greco di Tufo, che cresce in otto zone, otto aria, specifiche sempre in Erpigna, che è anche un dio CG aglianico del Taurasi, dio CG fatto dall 'alianico, sono tre dio CG, poi abbiamo l 'aglianico del Tamburno, che è anche un dio CG che viene del provincia di Benevento, nell 'area del Sanio, che è un 'altra versione dell 'alianico fatto, su un altro terroir, un altro terreno, con un altro clone dell 'alianico, tendenzialmente affina per meno tempo nel legno del Taurasi, per cui ha un filo più pronto in genere del Taurasi, in termini di quando lo si popere. Questi sono i quattro DOCG, Poi ci sono una marea di D .O .C. Incluso questo famosissimo del Falenghina del Sanio, che è un D .O .C. molto importante del Falenghina, che è quest 'altro vittinio che ho menzionato. Poi ci sono altri D .O .C. come il bianco e il rosso del fissuvio, l 'acrime di Cristo, ci sono altri vittini del Sanio che sono interessanti, ci sono alcuni produttori che scegliano di fare vino sotto l 'AGT, per spermentare e magari non usare solo vittini ottotini. Fantastico. Ora mi piacerebbe sedermi e imparare date sui vini regionali della campagna in termini di vino, suolo, clima, qualunque cosa tu voglia condividere. ok allora il clima uno quando subito quando pensi alla campagna pensi al Mediterraneo pensi al positano questi zone caldissimo per cui ci sono zone della campagna che hanno un clima mediterraneo marittimo no però per esempio ci sono altre zone della campagna come l 'erpigna che ha un mi sto perché hanno sì questo influenza lontano del mare però hanno anche le montagne fa freddo si può sciare per cui hanno un clima più continentale per cui c 'è un mescuglio qua poi c 'è l 'Ischia che chiaramente è un 'isola dove cresce bianco l 'ella un vittimio a totoro che ha un clima mediterraneo chiaramente per cui ci sono molti diversità in campania in generale ci sono microclime perché dipende dell 'elivazione, il suolo, la prossimità del mare che Vitigno sta usando, ci sono un sacco di fattori ovviamente come altre zone d 'Italia per parlare del clima. Poi quando parliamo del suolo, uno potrebbe pensare che visto che c 'è stata questa esplosione da un vulcano vissuvio, sarebbe tutto vulcano, questo non è vero, ci sono zone di la campagna che hanno il terreno che è vulcano come vissuvio, ci sono i campi flegret che erano campi di vulcani, molte zone da campagna hanno il sopra Suolo, cioè il livello superior del suolo, che ha topsoil, che è volcanico, però il sottosuolo non lo è. Per qui è un suolo misto. Ci sono molte zone della campagna che hanno calcario, cioè limo, queste suole che danno anche tanta acidità, tanta mineralità al vino. Poi ci sono anche zone che hanno più sabbia, che sono più vicino al mare, come per esempio quelli dove il rostro non è attaccato il vettino. Per cui anche qui dipende, ci sono microclime e microzone, per cui è un terroir, un terreno, un regione estremamente variato e interessante. Parliamo della Peña devo che menzionare altra intervista con Teresa Bruno e Elaria Petito. Ho conosciuto con loro grazie a te, all 'univenti con i produttori dell 'Elpina. Sì, è carino che gli ha interessato a Teresa che è presidente e l 'aria vicepresidente. Sono due produttrice della campagna molto famose e molto brave a far conoscere il loro territorio e sono dell 'Erpigna appunto. Ci sono tante donne nell 'Erpigna però come tutte le zone d 'Italia ovviamente storicamente sono sempre state i uomini che hanno portato avanti il vino per cui è bello anche vedere un consorcio con a capo due donne che, se non è una novità, non è così comune. Celtamente. Ci sono vittini rari della campagna che trovi interessante. Altri vittini, altri questi quattro? Sì, come Piedi Rosso, eccetera. Sì, Piedi Rosso, affascinante, come Rosso, Codi di Volpe, che vuol dire Codo della Volpe, un altro bianco che pretone che si trova sul Vissuvio, nel Vissuvio Bianco, nel Blend, che fanno. Poi ci sono, nel caserta, questa altra zona, questa altra provincia, una campagna super interessante e ci sono tre litigni ottottoni che non avevo mai provato prima del 2018, in cui sono andata campagna Stories che è una manifestazione per la stampa agli operatori in campagna. e ho assaggiato, ero a Casert, ho visitato la Reggio conosciuto dei produttori e ho assaggiato questi tra i vittini che non avevo mai sentito nominare prima, però che mi hanno affascinato e sono Pallegrello Bianco, Pallegrello Rosso e Casa Vecchia che sono interessanti fatti in questa zona della Caserta. Secondo te, quali sono le sfide e le opportunità di questo momento per questo regione proiettato verso il futuro in particolare per quanto riguarda climate change. Allora per quanto riguarda climate change credo che almeno in Erpinia per dire hanno, loro hanno la fortuna di avere la possibilità di far crescevitini più in alto per cui questo può mitigare i problemi che crea climate change, no andare in su un altro fattore in generale in campagna che hanno è questa storia che hanno con loro vittini nativi per cui non è che hanno impiantato vittini internazionali che devono cercare di far crescere pinonuar in queste zone no hanno i vittini le tradizioni lunghissime con questi particolari vittini con le tradizioni millenie di storia e io spero che questo gli aiuta a combattere climate change e poi hanno spero anche qui consorse e attenzione di ogni singolo produttore a sovra riguardare il loro terreno, il biodiversità degli animali, delle piante che hanno perché la monocultura sappiamo e non è un fattore positivo per il futuro, per cui speriamo che tutti noi e tutti loro cercano di combattere questo problematico che è evidente che impatta tutti noi. Le altre sfide che hanno è che ci sono alcuni produttori che sono molto grandi, che sono all 'estero da tanti anni, ma ci sono tanti piccoli, magari che non lo siano, che vogliono esserlo, per cui devono cercare le zone appropriate e sapere che ogni produttore non deve essere per forza a New York. Ci sono 50 mercati negli Stati Uniti per non parlare di tutti i paesi nel mondo, per cui l 'importante è guardare dove esattamente uno può trovare uno sbocco per i loro prodotti, che non è facile, però è possibile. Nella versione inglese mi ha detto qualcosa della gente, della forza della gente. Ah sì, perché dicevamo, cioè eventi storici, non possiamo dimenticare il terremoto tremendo che è successo, penso che era l '80, in Erpigna, che ha distrutto totalmente Bellino. E in quell 'anno lì molti sono morti, tanti proprietà distrutti, però comunque si è scoperto la resiglienza della gente, perché questa è una zona di gente forte, forte e resigliente, che comunque riescono a remboccare le maniche e tornare a lavorare. Per cui comunque non ho paura per questa gente qui e poi sono abbastanza allegri, che è importante nella vita, la positività. Toniamo un momento i quattro vini da iniziare dalla programma, di descrivere il sapore di questi vini. Certo, allora parliamo prima dei vini e poi parliamo due minuti solo dove mi potrete trovare se volendo. Allora i vini, falanghina, super facile secondo me di approccio molto fruttato, floriale, a volte lo trovi in un vino sparkling, per cui intriganti, di aspiaggia, facile, molto bello. Poi fiano, più strutturato, un vino che ha lunghissima potenzialità, strutturato a questo fondo di non amaro, però di mandorla, di nocciole, di una profondità, non so se riesco a esprimere quello che voglio trasmettere, però un vino profondo importante che fa riflettere, lo assaggi un sorso e pensi "ah allora sì questo sì" e poi il greco. Il greco è stato il primo vittigno che mi ha fatto piangere. Una volta ho assaggiato il greco durante una manifestazione di manifestazione divinita lì, anni fa, e mi sono trovata in un momento assurdo in cui ho trovato che stavo una lacra, ma mi stava scendendo l 'occhio e dice "ma sei ridicolo, Susanna, cioè non conosci questo produttore perché stai qua piangere di questo vino". Perché era un vino spettacolare, mi è piaciuto tantissimo, il greco che appunto viene da solo queste otto zone molto bello, molto fine, delicato, anche qui si trova la mineralità, l 'ascedità, tutto quello che vuoi, la florilvetà, tutti questi frutti di mattura, frutta mattura e poi anche il greco può invecchiare. Poi allianico. Cosa non c 'è da amare di allianico? È fruttato, speziato, c 'è il pepe bianco, ci sono un sacco di altri sentori. È bello anche per un vino rosso, anche questa acidità, questa mineralità. A volte si sente anche il legno, però legno legno legno dosato giusto, non troppo, non esagerato, chiaramente si sa dei tannini, il colore bellissimo vittigno sexy, cioè mi piace un sacco l 'alianico e penso che uno che non l 'ha mai assaggiato un alianico veramente è un vino che ti può stragare. Capisco, Susana, che offri servizi clienti individuali a persone che stanno imparando a conoscere il vino, costruendo le loro collezioni divini e pianificando viaggi in Italia, raccontaci di più sul tuo lavoro e su come i nostri ascoltatori possono contattarti per consigliere. Certo, grazie per l 'opportunità. Allora io ho una società che si chiama Vigneto Communications che lavoro molto con i consorzi italiani, con le regioni italiane e con produttori individuali, a far conoscere i loro prodotti negli Stati Uniti, faccio presentazioni eventi, gestisco la stampa, scrivo, eccetera. Per invece, i consumatori americani che vogliono order pay, che vogliono andare in Italia, li posso aiutare con il giro che vogliono fare, prima di quando partono posso farli un po' di lezioni del vino italiano anche del d 'italiano perché lo parlo da 30 anni e poi se un collettore vuole organizzare la loro cantina qua posso dare una mano anche a quali sono le andate da collezionare, zone eccetera eccetera E mi potete trovare a Vigneto .com su Instagram, su Facebook, sul sito o a un blog che si chiama vinare .com e poi ho anche un podcast sul vino, sul Vigneto. Dimmi di più un po' di più del podcast. Il podcast sono abbastanza un principiante, non come te, del podcast. Sono principiante anche. Sì, però sei musicista per cui sei anche avanzata con altre cose dai. Ho iniziato un podcast durante la pandemia che si chiama Vigneto the Sustainability Series in cui insieme una mia collega che è nuorvegese e che si chiama Sony Gandara che è un 'esperta di vini naturali abbiamo iniziato a parlare della sostenibilità, ma sostenibilità come lo si usa in Italia, sostenibilità che include anche la responsabilità sociale, economico e dell 'ambiente. Per cui un podcast in cui abbiamo parlato con dieci persone differenti, in dieci episodi differenti su alcuni aspetti della sostenibilità. Poi ho continuato un po' senza sogni a fare altri episodi sulla sostenibilità, poi ho iniziato una seconda serie sui libri del vino, perché ho una collezione enorme, ho deciso che era un modo per conoscere le persone che hanno... si sono messi a scrivere un libro sul vino e perché? E ho sulla loro storia il vino, ho su una particolare regione, ho su qualcosa e ho fatto, credo, 6 o 7 di quelli che ancora mi mancano alcuni da fare. Avevo l 'intenzione di fare 10 di questa serie, perché il mio podcast l 'idea di fare serie su alcuni tematiche, non sempre nella stessa direzione. - Non vero l 'ora di ascoltare questo vignetto podcast. - Grazie. - Susana, grazie. - Grazie. Brava tutto il lavoro e grazie agli ascoltatori ovunque tu vada e qualunque cosa tu beva. Ricorda di goderti la vita e di non smettere mai di imparare. Grazie, grazie dell 'opportunità e grazie agli ascoltatori. Ciao! e agitare a più contenuti esclusivi ed educativi su www .mododibere .com. La musica è stata composta da Ercilia Prosperi per il gruppo O1\. Puoi ascoltarli su www www .bandcap .com La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto, registrato, e montato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Steve Silverstein ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S1E9 La lingua è una porta: Lindsay Szper della scuola di lingua Cultura Senza Frontiere (Part 2) URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e9-lindsay-szper-parte-2/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:25:13.000Z I bambini sono davvero più bravi nell'apprendimento delle lingue rispetto agli adulti? Una lingua sconosciuta è una "barriera" o una porta per un'altra cultura? Cos'è un idioma? Lindsay Szper e Rose Thomas parlano di Hannah Arendt sulla madrelingua, James Baldwin sul buon pane e sul potere dell'amicizia per imparare una lingua e riparare il mondo. Lindsay è un'insegnante di lingue e una studentessa di lingue per vocazione. Sta studiando pedagogia del linguaggio alla New School e storia orale alla Columbia. Ascolta la prima parte della intervista ["Ho bisogno di un amico"](https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-m22pb-13eb2a8?ref=mododibere.com) per saparne di più su Culture Without Borders Language Collective (CWB), la scuola di lingua Cultura Senza Frontiere. Lindsay Szper e i suoi amici credono che il modo migliore per imparare la lingua sia attraverso l'amicizia. Puoi metterti in contatto con Lindsay all'indirizzo languagecollective@gmail.com. Lindsay definisce "idiom" così: *una collocazione che rappresenta una nozione o comprensione culturale comune.* Lindsay e Rose Thomas fanno riferimento a molte libri etc nella questa puntata. Gabriel Wyner, l'autore di*Fluent Forever*, dice che [queste 625 parole](https://fluent-forever.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/625-List-Alphabetical.pdf?ref=mododibere.com) ti permetteranno di comunicare in qualsiasi lingua. Rose Thomas menziona la mamma e il papà della famiglia di viticoltori campani della tenuta[ Terre Stregate](https://www.terrestregate.it/en/?ref=mododibere.com). [Penny Ur](https://www.cambridge.org/us/cambridgeenglish/authors/penny-ur?ref=mododibere.com), specialista in pedagogia linguistica, considera alcuni dei vantaggi che gli studenti di lingue adulti hanno (rispetto ai bambini) quando imparano una lingua. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/lindsay-foto-scaled-900x-format-original.jpg) Impara di più sulla programma [Oral History Master of Arts (OHMA)a Columbia University](http://oralhistory.columbia.edu/?ref=mododibere.com) e [Certificate in Teaching English](https://www.newschool.edu/teaching-english-certificate/%22?ref=mododibere.com) del New School. Per saperne di più del[ "filtro affetivo"](https://seidlitzblog.org/2020/09/22/what-is-the-affective-filter-and-why-is-it-important-in-the-classroom/?ref=mododibere.com). Studiosa di lingue [Dianne Larson Freeman](https://youtu.be/pX6UZNQXL%5Fw?ref=mododibere.com) I tre minuti preferiti di Lindsay su Internet iniziano alle 36:51 durante questa [intervista con Hanna Arendt](https://youtu.be/dsoImQfVsO4?ref=mododibere.com), trasmessa nel 1964. Lindsay ha presentato il saggio di Walter Benjamin ["Il compito del traduttore"](https://german.yale.edu/sites/default/files/benjamin%5Ftranslators%5Ftask.pdf?ref=mododibere.com) con la sua amica [Ana María Belique](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yj01OVonkU&ref=mododibere.com), leader e membro fondatore del [movimento Reconoci.do,](https://www.reconoci.do/?ref=mododibere.com) una rete civica nazionale indipendente che promuove i diritti umani e la piena integrazione dei dominicani di origine haitiana nella società dominicana. Lindsay ha menzionato questo [video di 15 minuti su Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbGIREz0ak0&ref=mododibere.com) di Robin Waldun che riassume il saggio di Benjamin. Le riflessioni sulla parola francese maman provengono dal video di Waldun. Lindsay ha imparato il detto "Cada cabeza es un mundo" dalla sua amica [Florencia Ruiz Mendoza](http://oralhistory.columbia.edu/current-student-bios/people%20/florencia-ruiz-mendoza-2022?ref=mododibere.com), ricercatrice, docente, attivista e sostenitrice di lunga data contro le sparizioni forzate in Messico. Questa è la [citazione di James Baldwin su bread ](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/8117303-to-be-sensual-i-think-is-to-respect-and-rejoice?ref=mododibere.com)da *The Fire Next Time.* Dovrebbe Modo di Bere realizzare un podcast spin-off tutto sulle diverse concezioni culturali della parola "pane"? Invia la tua opinione in un [Instagram](https://instagram.com/mododibere?ref=mododibere.com) DM o un'e-mail tramite [www.mododibere.com](https://www.mododibere.com/content/files/2026/08/mododibere-com-11.html) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)ha detto che l 'educazione linguistica deve essere una collaborazione, se qualcuno non sa qualcosa il resto del gruppo deve aiutarlo e quindi penso, almeno parlando in base all 'esperienza, i bambini hanno reso le cose più facili perché proprio come dici tu non si - vergognano. Sì esattamente e la vergogna in generale è una cosa brutta, Se riusciamo ad allontanarla da un posto e questo posto è un 'aula di lingue, benissimo! Nella puntata odiena, abbiamo la seconda parte dell 'intervista con Lindsey Sper. Lindsey è una storica orale e la cofondatrice di Culture Without Borders, una scuola di lingua alternativa. La puntata scorsa Lindsey ci ha raccontato la storia della scuola e crede che lo strumento più importante per imparare una lingua sia l 'amicizia. Prima di procedere con intervista tradotta, con le risposte tradotte di Lindsay, lette da tiziana forni, voglio farvi ascoltare una breve clip dell 'intervista originale per darvi un idea della voce di Lindsay. Ecco, Lindsay ci consiglia di superare la nostra paura e il perfezionismo con l 'apprendimento delle lingue e di uscire e fare due chiacchiere. And there are so many, unfortunately, so many assumptions that often come with having non -standard grammar and non -standard pronunciation. And so people sometimes feel, I think, so much weight e nervosità e perilizia di fare il thing e parlare con le persone, ma se... - E' la stessa maniera! - Sì, sì. - E' la stessa maniera per parlare con le persone. Continuiamo la conversazione sulla scienza di imparare una lingua nuova con le risposte tradotte lette da siano forni. Non c 'è un solo modo giusto per farlo, ci sono tanti modi per imparare una lingua quant 'è sono, in effetti, le persone. E poi è con le trovare cose divertenti e veramente interessanti per te e in modo che gli dedichi tempo ogni giorno. Ma la lingua è un 'abilità come altro abilitario chiede tempo, costanza e pratica. Il linguaggio è una pratica incarnata, è una memoria muscolare così come la memoria cognitiva. Quindi non è realistico presumere che assimilerai la conoscenza se non pratichi regularmente questi movimenti. Penso anche che il vocabolario sia come la grammatica, una grammatica un po' impenetrabile, specialmente se non hai una base grammaticale della lingua. Può Può essere davvero difficile cercare di imparare la grammatica di una lingua, soprattutto se sei un principiante, non sai come dire palla, tazza, cucchiaio, scuola e in effetti gli altri stanno cercando di insegnarti la lingua. Transitivo in transitivo. Esatto, esatto, quindi penso che imparare il vocabolario sia un punto di partenza davvero efficace, davvero utile. C 'è un linguista chiamato Gabriele Weiner, che ha scritto un libro che non ho finito, intitolato "Fluent Forever". In quel libro c 'è questo meraviglioso elenco di 625 parole del vocabolario. Secondo lui, se conosci queste 625 parole, puoi comunicare praticamente tutto quello che vuoi. Forse non sarà un parlare pulito e grammaticalmente corretto, ma può essere capito. quindi imparare le parole più comuni è utile e soprattutto non avere paura di parlare. Penso che tante persone siano bloccate dalla paura di parlare. È normale, mamma mia, è normale. Nella nostra lingua non ci troviamo spesso in situazione in cui non riusciamo a comunicare completamente agli altri i nostri bisogni, pensieri, sentimenti e altro. Laddove la nostra pronuncia non è regolare, così come la nostra grammatica non è regolare. Purtroppo ci sono così tanti presupposti che derivano dall 'avere una grammatica e una pronuncia non regolare. Le persone a volte sentono così tanto peso e nervosismo e sono bloccate quando studiano la lingua e parlano con altre persone. Ma questo è l 'unico modo? Sì, è l 'unico modo, parlare con le persone. Come insegnante, diciamo idealista, la mia politica è che il desiderio di fare ciò debba provenire dallo studente. Non posso dire a chi vuole imparare una lingua che deve farle e deve parlarla, non spetta a me deciderlo, spetta alla persona. Idealmente queste persone supereranno autonomamente il loro disaggio nel produrre la nuova lingua. Ma sto scoprendo che quando chiedo alle persone cosa le aiutate a imparare, molto spesso mi dicono che ciò che imparano viene da situazioni in cui non hanno alternative. Sulla base di queste riposte mi chiedo come insegnante che ruolo abbiamo come scuola, che ruolo come insegnante per spronare le persone e metterle in una posizione in cui la posta in gioco non sia così alta. quindi gli studenti devono farlo, devono parlare. Forse c 'è una relazione tra paura e fiducia. Ricordo uno dei miei primi momenti in cui mi sono sentito "wow, parlo davvero un po' d 'italiano". Lavoravo per un distributore divini. La mamma e il papà di questo meraviglioso famiglia italiana della cantina cantina terrestregate in campania sono venuti a trovarci e non parlavano una parola di inglese e ho detto di sì il poterò in giro posso facciela è stata una delle prime possibilità uno dei miei primi momenti in cui non c 'era davvero nessuno a intervenire quindi sarei stata l 'unica risorsa per la loro storia verso le persone che speravano avrebbero comprato o avrebbero continuato a comprare il loro vino. Ci sono stati alcuni momenti divertenti durante il processo di traduzioni, di fraintendimenti come sempre accade, ma c 'è stato anche un momento in cui stavo traducendo e non l 'avevo mai fatto prima in italiano, parlavamo dell 'uva alienico. Mi sono ritrovata a spiegare in inglese che la persona che stavo traducendo aveva appena detto che l 'alianico è come un cavallo selvaggio con sangue che non può essere addomesticato. Ero stupita di essere stato in grado di farlo, che sono stata in grado di comprendere e trasmettere queste informazioni. Ed è stata solo l 'occasione in cui non c 'erano altri che parlassero italiano, che potevano dirti "lascia che ti aiuti", non avevo l 'alternativa. In realtà avrei una domanda che mi incuriosisce da molto tempo, che il concetto di apprendimento per i bambini rispetto agli adulti è questa cosa biologica che probabilmente ha a che fare con la neuroplasticità, che rende tutto molto più facile per i bambini e così incredibilmente difficile per gli adulti. Presumo che questa sia la scienza, tuttavia mi mi chiedo è una mia teoria personale avendo studiato lingue ma non linguistica o sviluppo del linguaggio il mio pensiero è che forse i bambini fanno molto meglio almeno in parte perché non hanno vergogna e la mia sensazione con la mia esperienza è che imparo un belio facendo errori Più di qualsiasi altro metodo abbia provato e quindi mi chiedo questa teoria abbia senso o se hai qualche pensiero sulla vergogna e su quegli stati dello sviluppo umano, tipo un bambino che ha solo fame di imparare e non è imbarazzato se spaglia e non ha ancora imparato a vergoggiarsi se non sa qualcosa, come capite nella società. O sì, ho così tanti pensieri e li sto scrivendo per ricordarmi di dire tutte le cose che voglio dire. Sono in effetti completamente d 'accordo con te su una cosa. Queste idee hai venuta da qualcuno che ha scritto uno dei libri di testo per il mio certificato di insegnamento dell 'inglese. C 'è questa idea popolare che i bambini siano più bravi nell 'apprendimento delle lingue rispetto agli adulti. Penso che questa persona fosse Penny Hoare, ma a dir la verità non ne sono sicura. Grazie al cielo o ancora esperanze? Sì, da adulti abbiamo molte più risorse cognitive rispetto ai bambini. I bambini imparano, come i neonati che imparano tutto allo stesso tempo, da come mangiare, a cosa servono tutti quegli oggetti intorno a loro, considerando che noi adulti abbiamo già un inquadramento dell 'abilità cognitiva e della comprensione del mondo che possiamo mettere al servizio delle lingue. Ma c 'è qualcosa agli adulti che inhibisce personalmente penso che sia esattamente quello che hai detto, c 'è questo termine nel campo dell 'insegnamento delle lingue chiamato filtro affettivo. L 'idea del filtro affettivo è che le persone possono imparare solo quando il filtro affettivo è basso. Penso che intendano dire che le persone non imparano quando sono ansiose, quando le tue risorse, le risorse del tuo cervello sono occupate d 'altre cose, dall 'ansia, da qualunque cosa provi chi la tua ansia e questo ti impedisce di assimilare e conservare nuove informazioni. E quindi questa è una cosa di cui parlano le persone linguistiche, ma penso che sia vero per il linguaggio su tutta la linea, se senzioso, a disagio e preoccupato, come conserverà le informazioni? Quest 'idea di insegnare subito a la persona come fare un colloquio di lavoro, ora sembra controproducente. Sì, sì, è giusto, infatti. Sì, devo impressionare qualcuno per una posta in gioco incredibilmente alta e sarà così che imparero come parlare una seconda lingua. Da amici intervistato qualcuno di nome Jim, originario dell 'Ungheria, stava parlando della sua esperienza di migrazione in vari luoghi del mondo. Per un certo periodo, poco dopo che la sua famiglia lasciò a Lungheria rimasero a Parigi. Stava parlando della sua esperienza di bambino di 8 o 9 anni che imparava il francese. La sua discussione sul modo in cui i ragazzi francesi lo hanno trattato è stata bellissima e, onestamente, quello che pensa stiamo cercando a "culture without borders". Ha parlato di come i ragazzi della sua classe, non vedessero la sua mancanza di conoscenza del francese come un deficit. Non era qualcosa che non andava a lui, era semplicemente un dato di fatto e quindi lo invitavano a giocare. Se non sapeva qualcosa avrebbe detto che non lo sapeva e avrebbe lavorato per spiegargli cosa stava succedendo. Ha parlato molto di come l 'educazione linguistica non possa esser una cosa competitiva e sono completamente d 'accordo con lui. Jim è un medico del pronto soccorso, gli stavo chiedendo della scuola di medicina dove la competizione funziona e se secondo lui fosse possibile applicare qualcosa alla scuola di lingue, mi ha risposto no, l 'apprendimento delle lingue non è la facoltà di medicina. Con la lingua non è necessario essere perfetti, l 'idea è che si debba parlare con perfetta precisione nello stesso modo in cui un chirurgo o un medico deve fare il proprio mestiere con perfezione e precisione non è vera per l 'educazione linguistica. Ha detto che l 'educazione linguistica deve essere una collaborazione. Se qualcuno non sa qualcosa, il resto del gruppo deve aiutarlo e quindi penso almeno parlando in base allo l 'esperienza. I bambini hanno reso le cose più facile, perché proprio come dici tu non si vergognano. Sì esattamente e la vergogna in generale è una cosa brutta. Se riusciamo ad allontanarla da un posto e questo posto è un 'aula di lingue, benissimo. Purtroppo anche la conoscenza del vino è un argomento che intimidisce dice alcune persone. Come lo studio della lingua, quando si parla di vino, a volte si incontrano delle scuse come "oh non non so, niente divino" oppure "non parlo una parola di quella lingua" o "non ricordo i miei studi linguistici al diceo" immagino sia stato tutto uno spreco. Mi è capitato che altri persone si scusano appena iniziano a parlare e qualcosa che sto cercando di aiutare a cambiare alle persone per dare loro un piccolo incoraggiamento ad andare avanti e fare il salto. Non c 'è perfezione qui. Continuo ancora a ademparare nuove parole in inglese. Assolutamente. Mi piace provare a ribaltare il certo di vastità. Per cercare di sinnescare la sensazione di intimidazione, perché se in ogni caso è tecnicamente impossibile imparare tutto, puoi sempre provare a fare del tuo meglio. L 'Italia, come sai, ha così tanti vittini diversi non noscere. Penso che alcune persone lo evitino perché pensano che l 'obiettivo sia conoscerli tutti e tu non puoi. Certamente sarebbe un meraviglioso viaggio interminabile cercare di imparare tutti i evitini, ma devi solo iniziare da qualche parte. Sembra che tu abbia scoperto che iniziare con un 'amicizia, una relazione, sia un 'intuizione molto bella che non avevo mai sentito articolare. Mi sembra che questa sarà una grande scuola di lingue. Lo spero, sono d 'accordissimo, proprio come dice Diana Sonfriman. È un è possibile imparare una lingua perché non solo la lingua è così vasta ma è anche in continua evoluzione. Come con le annate, giusto? Con il vino. Lo dirò alle persone a volte quando ovviamente si sentono piuttosto intimidite dal vino. Dico, ascolta, anche se un master sommelier potesse imparare tutti i vini del mondo. cosa che non possono? Giusto. Tutto cambiere è bell 'anno successivo perché è una nuova annata. Sì. In inglese abbiamo un detto "moving target", un bersalio mobile. Assolutamente sì. Sì, è anche un bersalio in senso tradizionale. Ho un certificato nazionale in interpretareato medico. Quando l 'ho lasciato il colleggio, ho pensato che fosse quello che avrei voluto fare per sempre, fare l 'interprete e il traduttore. La traduzione e l 'interpretareato è un lavoro fascinante. Penso che molte delle persone che fanno questa professione crescano abilingue. Ho lavorato intensamente per parlare anche come una madrelingua. Penso che molte persone pensino "voglio parlare come una madrelingua". e ho iniziato quando ero molto giovane, ho avuto molto aiuto, era normale per me esercitarmi sulla pronuncia per perfezionare il mio accendo. Ho raggiunto un livello piuttosto alto di spagnolo, in cui le persone mi chiedono se sono sudamericana, ma se parlo più lungo diventa ovvio che questa è la mia seconda lingua. Ti sto dicendo tutto questo perché penso che spesso ci sia molta pressione per aggiungere un livello nativo di apprendimento delle lingue. YouTube è la mia cosa preferita. Amo YouTube e i miei tre minuti preferiti su YouTube sono queste interviste di Hannah Arendt, che parla di un centinaio di cose in questa bellissima intervista. I miei tre minuti preferiti sono i suoi discorsi sulla lingua madre. L 'intervistatore le chiede cosa le manca o se deve desiderare rientemente l 'Europa prima di Hitler. Chiede in che modo l 'Europa è diversa adesso. L 'intervista è stata fatta negli anni sessanta. L 'intervistatore chiede cosa sia rimasto della Germania e dell 'Europa dopo la pazzia della guerra. La sua risposta è che la lingua rimane, la lingua non è impazzita. Anna ha vissuto negli Stati Uniti, credo abbia vissuto anche in Francia, forse in Israele per un periodo, parla di come per lei non c 'è niente come la tua lingua madre, dice che ha sempre in mente queste centinaia di poesie filastrocche solo in tedesco e non riuscirà mai in una seconda lingua. C 'è così tanta esperienza vissuta nella nostra lingua madre che è insostituibile. Anna Arendt in quell 'intervista parla di come ha mantenuto una certa distanza dalle lingue che è imparato. Non c 'è niente come il tedesco per lei e parla le lingue straniere in modo non idiomatico. Questo indica che non ha dimenticato la sua prima lingua e questo mi ha tolto un peso e mi sono sentita sollevata quando ho capito che può diventare davvero bravo, davvero bilingue, può raggiungere un alto livello molto alto di bilinguismo e tuttavia non c 'è sostituto per un 'intera infanzia vissuta in un certo codice colturare e questo mi è piaciuto e mi ha aiutato. Questo è bello, adoro Hannah Arendt. Non è la migliore? Sì, sì credo di avere un suo libro sul mio comodino in questo momento. Adoro quello che hai appena detto. Quasi fa sì che uno sia più orgoglioso della sua lingua. Mi sembra che stiamo per concludere, ma da parte mia sarebbe sciocco non chiedere a una persona esperta come te di linguistica del mio progetto modo di bere che tratta il linguaggio idiomatico. Hai iniziato a parlare un po' proprio ora, questi specifici tipi di frasi e proverbi che raccolgo e che trovo così deliziosi e anche in modo per fare amicizia. Forse potrei condividere un esempio che mi piace fare quando presento il mio progetto a qualcuno. Ho emperato l 'italiano dai vitticotturi di di tutta Italia. Parlavamo italiano, ma poi mi insegnavano queste frasi davvero divertenti e piacevoli nella lingua locale, nel dialetto. Ora che hai parlato di amicizia, dirò che un modo per fare amicizia. Quando incontro qualcuno che parla italiano, dico "Oh, di dove sei?" dicono sono italiano e io dico di dove e loro dicono di napoli forse allora posso dire tua nonna chi ama un ascensore tra ma muro e immancabilmente la reazione è quella di sultare e afferarmi il braccio e dire dove l 'hai imparato, chi te l 'hai insegnato? Come fai a saperlo? Chi sei? Perché sei interessata a questo? Sono molto interessata a questo tipo di frase, forse non utili in senza tradizionale, piuttosto di sapere dire dove la stazione dei treni, con lo scambio di modo di dire, soprattutto in dialetto, fai amicizia. Poi iniziamo a parlare delle nostre terre, scambiando consigli sui disseranti e poi iniziamo davvero una conversazione. Mi chiedo se puoi dirci cosa, intendi tu per parlare una lingua in modo idiomatico e quali sono queste meravigliose frasi da cui sono così attratta. Come pensare a questi detti nell 'universo del linguaggio? Oh, domanda molto interessante, la mia comprensione è che quando parli una lingua in modo idiomatico suona naturale per una persona che crea "shoot" in quella lingua. Non so se è una definizione d 'addizionario. Cosa dici invece della parola idioma? Idioma, l 'intendo come una frase ho detto che questa è una parola interessante dall 'insegnamento delle lingue che mi ha insegnato il mio insegnante amico Jean Lamberte, lei lo chiama collocazione, una collocazione è un gruppo di parole che insieme hanno un significato specifico, una collocazione è qualsiasi gruppo di parole che spesso vanno insieme, Penso che un idioma sia una collocazione che rappresenta una nozione o comprensione culturale comune. Ho notato qualcosa quando ti ho chiesto della parola idioma che ha iniziato a sorridere. Quando raccolto questi detti, al volte dico, per far sapere al qualcuno cosa intendo perché la tua mente tende a diventare vuota quando chiedo alle persone di ricordare un proverbio. Quindi chiedero "Cosa dici quando piove molto?" In inglese diciamo "It's raining cats and dogs" letteralmente "stà piovendo catti e canni" e in italiano "è piove a cattinelle" quindi o in inglese diciamo "when it rains and pours, letteralmente quando piove di luvia. In italiano se dice piove sul bagnato, mi piacciono molto questi detti e in effetti, in modo obiettivo, sono molto piacevoli. Penso che siano piuttosto piacevoli, mentre parli mi viene in mente una conversazione che ho avuto ieri con una amica di nome Ana. Stiamo lavorando a una presentazione sulla personificazione e in particolare la traduzione e l 'interpretazione come pratiche incorporate. Una cosa che mi interessa presentare è un riassunto del saggio di Walter Benjamin "The Task of the Translator", il compito del traduttore, ovvero. L 'hai letto? È un bellissimo saggio, molto intenso. C 'è questo video di YouTube, di circa 15 minuti, di un uomo che lo spiega molto bene. Walter Benjamin dice che la parola "brotto" per un tedesco significa qualcosa di diverso dalla parola "pen" per un francese. Entrambe le parole se riferiscono al pane, ma la nozione di pane in francese è diversa dalla nozione di pane in tedesco. Come lo è in coreano, porteghese, inglese, nella lingua dei segni, forse la lingua dei segni non è un buon esempio perché ci sono lingue dei segni da tutto il mondo. Comunque tutto ciò per dire che le nozioni che abbiamo sulle cose dal punto di vista culturale sono specifiche dei gruppi, dei luoghi e delle regioni da cui proveniamo. Anna è meravigliosa, è una sostenetrice dei diritti umani di discendenza a Itiana nella Repubblica Dominicana che difende i diritti delle persone di discendente aitiana e i discendenti afre in tutto il mondo. Il suo suggerimento per questa presentazione che stiamo facendo è che la cosa bella della lingua è quando hai una particolare parola di una particolare lingua. Questo richiama una particolare nozione culturale, ma allo stesso tempo il pane esiste in tutte le culture, giusto, ci sono differenze ma quelle differenze sono settile e la cosa, il concetto universale. Parlava della parola francese mamman, è interessante che il significato di mamman si trova tra mamma e madre. Non ha il peso emotivo, nello l 'intimità di mamma, ma non ha neanche la freddezza di madre. Quindi c 'è uno spettro di distensione le lingue, ma non riesco a immaginare nessuna lingua in cui mia madre non esista. Quindi penso che forse ciò che è così avvicente e ciò che accende l 'amicizia intorno agli idiomi è l 'idea che le culture abbiano modi diversi di esprimere idee condivise molto simili. Sì, adoro questo esempio di panna. Di recente mia ha capito un libro che stavo leggendo, credo forse "The Fire Next Time" di James Baldwin. In questo incredibile assaggio parla di tutti questi grandi problemi nella società e si prende solo un momento, dice "è un 'altra cosa, perché stiamo mangiando questo pane terribile?" e inizia a parlare di immagino stesse parlando di quelle che io chiamo meraviglie della scienza del alimentazione, forse pane commerciale molto economico fatto con farina spiancata. Mi stava parlando di divertimento e di come questo fosse così importante che devi divertirti e vitale come qualsiasi altra cosa di cui parlava che alla gente piace pensare che potrebbe essere più importante. E stavo solo, questo non è nel saggio, ma stavo immaginando Baldwin a Parigi che trovava del pane davvero ottimo e pensavo "Oh mio dio, dove è stato nella mia vita? Questo ora, questo è pane. Aspetta un secondo devo assicurarmi che tutti sappiano di avere questa esperienza con il pane. Non abbiamo parlato molto di viaggi se non c 'è implicito nei motivi per cui le persone hanno necessità di imparare una nuova lingua ma direi una volta che se in un altro posto impari non solo altra parola per pane, ma impari un pane nuovo. È così adorabile. Forse avremo un podcast spin -off che è solo per raccogliere e confrontare tutti i diversi tipi di pane. Questo potrebbe essere infinito. Meraviglioso e delicioso. Sono così felice di avere questa discussione con te, ha accesso molte nuove idee sul apprendimento delle lingue per me. Grazie mille, metteremo sicuramente notte sugli episodi a tutti questi fantastici libri e risorse che ti sono venduti in mente condividendo questa idea, ma forse potresti dirci se c 'è un posto online in questo momento dove le persone possono trovare il tuo progetto e sapete di più su quello che stai facendo? No, non c 'è ancora, ci sto lavorando, ma è possibile inviare un email a cvblanguacollective @gmail .com. Fantastico, metterò anche nelle notte della punzarta. Vorrei aggiungere, prima di finire alcune riflessioni a proposito di ciò che hai detto prima. Prego. Uno riguarda il modo in cui è menzionato la richiesta di espressione idiomatiche come modo per fare amicizia. Parliamo spesso di una barriera linguistica, consideriamo la lingua una barriera tra le persone e qualcosa da superare, ma in realtà penso che il linguaggio sia divertente, tutti i paradosi che vivono nella pratica del linguaggio, il linguaggio è una barriera ma è anche la porta di una cultura. Penso che esprimendo, imparando la lingua, impegnandosi davvero per imparare una lingua, dimostri l 'interesse delle persone, è un interesse dimostrato per una cultura ed è un motivo per cui qualcuno ti fa entrare. Stavo anche pensando che chiedere espressione idiomatiche è una via per l 'amicizia, solo perché stavamo parlando di Hannah Harend. Da dove mi trovo l 'amicizia è il mezzo migliore per lo sviluppo del linguaggio, ma penso anche che l 'amicizia sia una delle cose fondamentali per sistemare il nostro mondo dystopico. Penso che siamo socializzati capire in noi stessi come divisi lungoline d 'identità, linee linguistiche, linee socio -economico. Un 'altra citazione o un 'altra frase nell 'intervista di Anna Arendt che trovo di impatto è quando parla di come l 'amicinzia trascenda le divisioni politiche e penso che lo faccia dal vero. Le persone si organizzano in gruppi politici per aggiungere determinati obiettivi concreti di condivisi che hanno, ma quando sei amico di qualcuno, tu ti stai relazionando con questo qualcuno come individuo, come dice lei, indipendentemente dalla tua relazione con il resto del mondo. Ho 29 anni, mi guardi intorno e ci sono molte cose, francamente, sul modo in cui il mondo è impostato, organizzato, che penso siano davvero tristi, sbagliate e incasinate. Se rifretto su come rispondere a questo, risponderei. Penso che sia in genio di dire che l 'amicizia risolverà tutti i problemi del mondo, ma penso che sia un punto di partenza, penso che sviluppare un 'amicizia genuina con qualcuno ci permette di vedere al di fuori della nostra realtà, elenda reale e personale l 'esperienza di qualcun altro che fondamentalmente è e sarà diversa dalla tua. "Questo mi porta all 'ultima cosa che volevo dire, ovvero che ho un detto per te". "Timi". "Non è un detto della mia regione, prendo questo della mia amica Florencia, viene da città del Messico e me l 'ha insegnato di recente, il detto è "Cada cabezza es un mondo". Scometto che conoscendo l 'italiano può indovinare cosa significa o conoscendo anche lo spagnolo ovviamente. significa ogni singola testa è un mondo e ogni essere umano è un universo, un cosmo. Penso che sia questo che mi attrave, che mi attrave verso questa cosa chiamata storia orale. Questo è ciò che mi attira nel campo dell 'istruzione ed è ciò che mi motiva personalmente a spingere l 'istruzione in nuove direzioni perché abbiamo così tanto da imparare da qualsiasi altra persona e qualsiasi altro individuo e penso che cada cabezza è un mondo esprima che ogni persona è un universo di storie, conoscenze e abilità e quindi spero che la nostra scuola possa essere un luogo in cui le persone possono condividere queste abilità con gli altri e anche dove possiamo semplicemente imparare gli uni dagli altri in una vita organica e piacevole che è così bella. Grazie mille, adoro questa frase, mi fa veramente pensare a un momento. Penso che ero una giovane arologente e avevo appena imparato le definizioni delle parole con notazione e di notazione. Ho avuto quello che all 'epoca sembrava un profondo pensiero d 'arologente che forse ho ignorato fino a questo momento in cui lo ricordo dalla frase che mi hai appena insegnato ma ho pensato che meraviglia le connotazioni sono diverse per tutti, ognuno ha il proprio set di connotazioni e questo significa che ci sono tante lingue, quante sono le persone. Grazie mille a tutti i nostri ascoltatori. Grazie mille alla mia ospite, Lindsay Spear, per essere venuta, insegnarci così tante, cosa è anche per presentarci questa meravigliosa scuola di lingue Culture Without Borders, Cultura senza Frontiere. ovunque tu vada e qualunque cosa tu beva, ricorda di goderti la vita e di non smettere mai di imparare. Pulsivi ed educativisuvuvu .mododibere .com La música estata composta da hercilia prosperi periuprupoou. Puede escuchar suuvuvuvu .ou music .bandcapp .com por otro, se engañando, se dejanse para ese mismo. La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto, registrato, e montato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Steve Silverstein ha fornito assistenza audio. Tiziana Forni ha collaborato alla traduzione di questo episodio ed è stata doppiatrice di Lindsay Szper. ### ▷S1E8 “Ho bisogno di un amico”: Lindsay Szper della scuola di lingua Cultura Senza Frontiere (Part 1) URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e8-lindsay-szper-parte-1/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:28:58.000Z Lindsay Szper e i suoi amici credono che il modo migliore per imparare la lingua sia attraverso l'amicizia. Modo di Bere è completamente d'accordo! Lindsay è un'insegnante di lingue e una studentessa di lingue per vocazione. Sta studiando pedagogia del linguaggio alla New School e storia orale alla Columbia. In una intervista brillante e divertente, Lindsay racconta a Rose Thomas della scuola di lingue che ha avviato con i suoi amici. Condivide anche storie sui suoi nonni straordinariamente multilingue e un po' della lingua che Lindsay ha inventato da bambina. Lindsay condivide consigli incoraggianti per acquisire - no, sviluppare! - una nuova lingua. La seconda parte dell'intervista è in arrivo. Per saperne di più su Culture Without Borders e per conoscere i loro eventi nell'area di New York City, puoi metterti in contatto con Lindsay all'indirizzo languagecollective@gmail.com. Il libro che Lindsay ha menzionato: [Rethinking Oral History and Tradition](https://global.oup.com/%3Cwbr%20/%3Eacademic/product/rethinking-%3Cwbr%20/%3Eoral-history-and-tradition-%3Cwbr%20/%3E9780190681685?cc=us&lang=en&&ref=mododibere.com) by Nepia Mahuika Ecco un[video di YouTube](https://youtu.be/pX6UZNQXL%5Fw?ref=mododibere.com) con la studiosa Dianne Larson Freeman, e [uno dei suoi documenti di ricerca](https://%3Cwbr%20/%3Eenglishforbeachpurposes.files.%3Cwbr%20/%3Ewordpress.com/2013/12/%3Cwbr%20/%3Elarsenfreeman%5F2006-the-%3Cwbr%20/%3Eemergence-of-complexity-%3Cwbr%20/%3Efluency-and-accuracy-in-the-%3Cwbr%20/%3Eoral-and-written-production-%3Cwbr%20/%3Eof-five-chinese-learners-of-%3Cwbr%20/%3Eenglish.pdf) sull'appredimento delle lingue. Una degli amici di Lindsay, Reina, consiglia di studiare la lingua attraverso i media su un argomento che trovi diveretene. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/lindsay-foto-scaled-900x-format-original-1.jpg) Reina possiede un'impresa di pulizie a New York [Reina's Cleaning Services LLC.](https://%3Cwbr%20/%3Ereinascleaningservicesllc.com/) Iscriviti alla newsletter! - Espandi per la trascrizione generata automaticamente. (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)what do you actually need to speak English if you feel like you're not getting there now?" And she responded. She said, "What I need is a friend." She said, "My daughter speaks Spanish. My work is in Spanish. My friends and family speak Spanish. I need a friend. How am I going to learn if I don't have somebody to talk to?" quello di cui ho bisogno è un amico. Vedi, mia figlia parla spagnolo, il mio lavoro è spagnolo, i miei amici e la mia famiglia parlano spagnolo. Ho bisogno di un amico. Come parlerò se non ho alcuno con cui parlare? Benvenuti a Moro di Bere italiano, podcast su bei bandai locali ed eti locali. Mi (speaking in foreign language) Culture Without Borders, cultura senza frontiera. Culture Without Borders è una scuola alternativa di lingue dove si crede che lo strumento più importante per imparare la lingua è l 'amicizia. Lindsay ha anche un altro progetto linguistico molto interessante. Studia e analizza i metodi reali che gli adulti usano per imparare una nuova lingua. Lindsay è cresciuta nel sud della California in una famiglia straordinariamente multilingue, quindi perfetta per il modo di bere. Prima di procedere con l 'intervista nella versione italiana con Tiziana Forni, come doppiatrice di Lindsay, voglio farvi ascoltare una breve clip dell 'intervista originale per darvi un 'idea della voce di Lindsay. Ecco, Lindsay che parla di ciò che ha imparato dai nonni molti lingue. an unusual version of English, I think really normalized for me the fact that people who learn English as a second language can communicate themselves fully and richly in a way that's different from the standard. Now let's start with my question to Nancy. My interest is in the language and language, idiomatico, slang, dialetto, storie che ci raccontano della cultura. Mi aspetto che oggi parleremo di più della parte linguistica, e non vero l 'ora di parlare di culture without borders, ma vorrei iniziare con farti una domanda su una bevanda locale. Qualsiasi tipo va bene, non vino o l 'alcol, ma qualsiasi tipo di bevanda della tua infanzia o dei tuoi viaggi? Ciao Rose, mi avevi dato una dritta su questa domanda e per prima cosa stavo per darti una risposta molto noiosa e cioè che la mia bevanda preferita è l 'acqua sales, che mi sembra molto comune a New York e in realtà non conosco altri posti dove l 'utilizza è così comune. Però una risposta interessante che posso darti è che i miei nonni, che erano dell 'Europa, dell 'est, la mamma di mio padre era lituana e il padre di mio padre era polacco e i miei nonni bevevano spesso bevande calde in tazze di vetro trasparente. È una cosa che non avevo realizzato fino a quando non sono diventata più grande e sono andata a casa di amici di amici che penso fossero russi e dosseziani e anche loro bevano le bevande calde, scuse, in tazze di vetro e ho trovato questa cosa straordinaria. Io ricordo mio nonno che era un uomo buffo e lotondo con un forte accento polacco. Ho pochissimi ricordi di lui perché comunque è morto quando avevo 5 anni ma lo ricordo bene mentre beveva tazze in caffè di vetro trasparente che io e mio fratello abbiamo tenuto e ogni volta che uso queste tazze penso a mio fratello e a mio nonno. Grazie di avercelo raccontato. Dunque hai menzionato della moltitudine di lingue nella tua famiglia, puoi dirmi alcune delle lingue che parlavano i tuoi noni? Dunque io sono cresciuta in una famiglia di lingua inglese, mio padre conosce alcune lingue ma generalmente a casa parlavamo inglese e invece i genitori di mio padre erano ampiamente multilingue, non posso nemmeno elencarti tutte le lingue ma il padre di mio padre parlava 11 lingue. Quelle che mi vengono in mente adesso sono Polacco, il dish inglese, spagnolo, francese, svedese, che altro, a tedesco, è una manciata di altre lingue. Anche mia nonna parlava Polacco, svedese e cos 'altro, russo. entrambi parlavano russo, ma a casa dei miei genitori si parlava inglese. Sono cresciuta pensando che le persone proveniente dall 'Europa fossero molto multilingue. Poi con il tempo è diventato chiaro che il motivo per cui i miei nonni parlavano così tante lingue era donnato ovviamente che erano bravi a farlo, ma dall 'altro è stato che a causa del momento storico in cui sono nati e vissuti, erano ebrei e sono sopravvissuti all 'olocausto e naturalmente avevano molto interesse per le lingue ma hanno anche imparato per necessità e a seguito delle situazioni politiche in cui si trovavano i loro paesi. Incredibile, quindi il tuo interesse per le lingue nasce da bambina o è arrivato in seguito? Ho sempre avuto interesse per la lingua, non riesco a immaginare che non abbia che fare con i miei nonni. Prima di tutto solo il fatto che ora sto studiando per diventare insegnante d 'inglese e stiamo avviando anche una scuola di lingue. Di recente ho molto riferso prescutto sul fatto che i miei nonni parlavano una versione insolita, diciamo, dell 'inglese. Penso che mi hanno davvero normalizzato il fatto che le persone che imparano l 'inglese come seconda lingua possono comunicare se stesse in modo completo e ricco, in un modo diverso da quello che è la lingua standard. Però credo di non aver risposto alla tua domanda. Come ho detto, la lingua per me è sempre stata presente sin da bambina. Quando ero in seconda alimentare, io e i miei amici abbiamo inventato una lingua chiamata "papparuga" e avevamo iniziato ad organizzare alcune lezioni di lingua nel parco giochi e davamo anche delle valutazioni agli i bambini? Oh, è meraviglioso! Stavo per chiederti di alcuni incontri con frasi idiomatiche o proverbi della tua esperienza familiare che sono stati divertenti o semplicemente immemorabili, ma devo chiederti invece, ricordi qualche papparuga? Oh, mio dio, Sì, sì, certo, me lo ricordo. Era la parola per salutare le persone. Dovevi creare questo suono davvero specifico e dovevi dirlo. Qui è assolutamente necessario farvi sentire la voce di Lindsey che parla il suo linguaggio infantile inventato. La gente non riusciva a mettere quel suono, non erano in grado di superare l 'esame di lingue dovevano continuare continuare a prendere lezioni, finché non potevano dirlo esattamente. Oh, è geniale! È assolutamente affascinante! Sono così felice che tu abbia condiviso questa storia. Sì, ma non ho risposta alla tua domanda. Nelle interviste di storia orale è divertente il modo in cui tendono ad andare, sono tortuose, ingarbugliate e sto facendo proprio questo. Ma la tua domanda era da dove venisse il mio interesse per la lingua e se fosse scarturito dai miei nonni? Penso che la risposta sia assolutamente sì. Mi viene in mente mio fratello che parla della loro casa, ne abbiamo anche fatto un film e lui parla di come la loro casa fosse simile ad un moseo e in effetti lo era soprattutto le cose di mio nonno che era un avvocato internazionale in Polonia. E poi quando è venuto qua ha svolto vari lavori diversi. Penso che mia nonna abbia anche detto che lui abbia lavorato in una farmacia, di cui non ne sono sicura, però alla fine ha lavorato come assistente sociale aiutando altre famiglie di rifugiati a ottenere i documenti e ciò che serviva per ottenere la cittadinanza. queste persone per ripagarlo gli davano un sacco di cose e tu quindi era come se fossi nelle loro case. Mio fratello io abbiamo fatto dei video mentre risistevamo la casa, un po' come la casa tua, Rose, e come se dalla loro libreria puoi viaggiare in tutto il mondo. Avevamo tutti questi ninno li provenienti da ogni parte che non erano il ninno li senza senso per esempio come raccogli gratis per le strade di Brooklyn. Erano oggetti di persone di tutto il mondo che erano stati regalati ai miei nonni. Non conoscevo bene ai miei nonno ma mia nonna aveva una memoria di ferro per i dettagli e ti sapeva dire tutti i minimi particolari di questi oggetti. Meraviglioso, mi piacerebbe vedere alcuni di questi video che hai fatto con tuo fratello? Li hai condivisi da qualche parte o li hai fatti solo per la tua famiglia? Inizialmente non avevo pianificato di farci niente, sono molto nuova nel mondo dei social media e della produzione artistica. Negli ultimi 4 -5 anni ho lavorato nel diritto delle lesioni personali e nell 'interpretariato medico, but I followed a seminar of oral history and this is what we have done. We will listen to a clip from the English word "pipedream" which means "un sogno irraggiungibile". che la gente può guardare il nostro video e poi imparare la traduzione e rispondere a alcune domande di conversazione. Il mio semplice è di avventare i workshop, i workshop della lingua, con questo come un Texte. È un sogno raggiungibile e vedremo se accadrà, ma spero di aver costruito alcune risorse per l 'apprendimento linguistico attorno a adesso. Le persone possono guardare i nostri video e poi esercitarsi nella traduzione, rispondere ad alcune domande di conversazione. La speranza alla fine è di condurre seminari linguistici con questo come testo da cui le persone possono studiare. Quando mi sento più a miaggia con la produzione o mi connetto con persone che stanno, cosa stanno facendo, mi piacerebbe organizzare un seminario in cui le persone che stanno imparando la lingua possano realizzare il proprio video. Quello che chiamo audiovisivo è solo un saggio autobiografico tratto dalle conversazioni delle persone. Nel nostro video siamo Jay, cioè mio fratello e io. Stiamo parlando dei nostri nonni contemporaneamente con la sovrapposizione di immagini della casa. Sono un 'adilettante, quindi se posso farlo io posso non farlo anche gli altri. La mia speranza così è di riuscire a realizzare un seminario in cui le persone impari e praticano la lingua e la traduzione attraverso quel processo di produzione di un media che è a livello personale per loro significativo. Bene, qui a Moro di Bere italiano adoriamo i sogni di lei tanti. Mentre stavo guardando alcuni dei materiali per la scuola di lingue che hai fondato, mi è piaciuto molto il modo in cui parli di chi studia una seconda lingua e chi li chiami esperti. Ho pensato che fosse davvero bello. Forse ci potresti dire di più sulla tua scuola "Culture Without Borders" e sul tuo progetto di ricerca sulla seconda lingua? Certamente, grazie per la domanda e per darmi l 'opportunità di parlare di queste cose, di spiegarsi. Il Collettivo Linguistico Culture Without Borders è un 'iniziativa sociale e è una cosa che ho iniziato. Mentre stavo insegnando alcune classi di lingua con alcuni amici. Una di queste mie amiche, penso che posso dire il suo nome, Ruth, era la prima della classe, otteneva il massimo de voti in queste valutazioni formali che il centro comunitario in cui insegnavo mi diceva di dare agli studenti, ma lei mi diceva che non le sembrava che parlasse inglese. Quindi le ho chiesto "ma di che cosa hai bisogno? superando la mia classe e stai ottenendo il massimo dei voti in tutti i test, di che cosa hai effettivamente bisogno per parlare inglese, se ti sente che ancora non ci sei, e lei mi ha risposto "quello di cui ho bisogno è un amico, vedi, mia figlia parla spagnolo, il mio lavoro è spagnolo, i miei amici e la mia famiglia parlano spagnolo, ho bisogno di un amico". Come parlerò se non ho alcuno con cui parlare. Come persona che ha studiato e studiò le lingue, penso che abbia colpito nel segno. Quando penso a ciò che mi ha aiutato, che aiuta le persone a imparare la lingua, la risposta è le sue relazioni. Così spesso nel insegnamento convenzionale delle lingue. Quando si insegnano lingue, ci troviamo in una classe e prepariamo delle situazioni come se fossimo persone nella vita reale. Ma l 'ambiente della classe è molto specifico e gran parte del lavoro che le persone stanno dedicando all 'apprendimento della lingua in una classe è specifico. In effetti non si trasferisce nella vita reale perché le condizioni nella classe sono molto diverse. Ci stiamo ancora organizzando, ma c 'è gente che crede in noi e le persone che fanno parte del gruppo hanno iniziato a parlarne come di una cosa che esiste davvero e questo è molto citante. Il nostro primo evento è stato un picnic a Central Park, siamo andati allo zoo del Bronx nel 2021 ed è stato un piccolo incontro molto multilingue per conoscere gli animali. poi avremo una giornata dedicata al bigliardo, una delle mie amiche è molto interessata al bigliardo, quindi lo sta insegnando bilingue e questo mi entusia sva molto. Andremo anche al Met per vedere una mostra sulle divinità dell 'arte maia e sull 'arte maia e tre amiche faranno praticamente da guida. Una di queste sta studiando la storia orale per migliorare la rappresentazione delle popolazioni indigene dell 'America Latina. E un 'altra viene da quello che oggi è chiamato Guatemala e parla una lingua indigena di lì che si chiama Kish. L 'altra, l 'ultima, studia antropologia museale e decolonizzazione dei musei. Così andremo al museo. Sembra incredibile. E mi ha chiesto anche del progetto di ricerca sulla seconda lingua. L 'idea di base è di intervistare persone che hanno avuto successo nell 'imparare una seconda lingua, per vedere ciò che funziona e ciò che non funziona. Sfruttare quindi l 'esperienza delle persone per migliorare il processo. Penso che così tante persone siano davvero scoraggiate quando cercano di imparare una nuova lingua, si sentono sole e con un compito che sembra impossibile. La mia speranza è che, intervistando le persone che sono riuscite nell 'intento, aiuti le persone che si sentono scoraggiate a riconoscere che questo è possibile. Le persone si sentono meno sole, nello sforza e nel lavoro di tradurre se stesse in un 'intero altro codice culturale. Fantastico! Mi hai detto che anche Il progetto di ricerca sulla seconda lingua fa parte del tuo lavoro per il corso di l 'area magistrale in storia orale alla Colombia. Mi piacerebbe che tu ci raccontassi un po' di quale sia stata la tua esperienza con il concetto di storia orale o cosa ti ha portato a quest storia di studio. Grazie per avermi l 'ho chiesto, mi hai anche anticipato questa domanda e mentre venivo qui in metropolitana mi chiedevo come cavolo ti avrei risposto. La storia orale è un qualcosa di sottile, parte della narrazione ufficiale della storia orale è che il modo in cui il programma di storia orale è iniziato alla Columbia Universiti è stato, per quanto capito, che un uomo di nome Alan Evans, poco dopo la nascita del registratore, ha deciso che avrebbe intervistato persone convenzionalmente di successo sulla loro esperienza di vita e storia di vita e che avrebbero salvato queste lunghe registrazioni. La storia orale, nel senso di Alan Evans, è un 'intervista lunga, conservati in un archivo istituzionale per il futuro dei posteri, ma il campo è così bello per un miliardo di ragioni, una delle quali è che Allanne è molto critico con se stesso e molto consapevole di se stesso. Una versione della storia orale è Allanne vince con le sue storie di vita e gli archivi di storia orale della Columbia University. ma la cosa molto più profonda potresti considerarle la tradizione, le storie indigine, che mantengono la tradizione della storia orare, potresti considerare il lavoro dei cantastori africani. Ho una amica che è una professoressa di spagnolo e ha questa fantastica associazione di persone interessanti e premorose. In un evento online che hanno recentemente organizzato hanno parlato di studi culturare come un campo di studio. Intendo gli studi culturare come l 'interiazione della cultura umana con tutto perché penso che la storia orale sia la trasmissione della cultura e la relazione e trasmissione culturare. C 'è uno storico orale indigino di Mauori, di un tributico e non so pronunciare il nome, che ora è la nuova Zelanda, che ha un libro meraviglioso che si intitola "The Thinking or History and Tradition", ovvero ripensare la storia orale e la tradizione. Parla di come è per il suo gruppo di appartenenza, la memoria molto più che semplice resitazione, parla di dispositivi mnemonici e Penso che questo sia probabilmente interessante per te. Difficile da spiegare, molto difficile, ma lui e molti pensatori indigeni parlano di connessione con la terra e punti di riferimento e di come le persone mantengono viva la loro conoscenza culturale storica attraverso gli storie di sopravvivenza delle persone. Penso che la storia orale sia cultura, narrazione e produzione di conoscenza. Anche produzione di conoscenza collaborativa, ora che abbiamo registratori e quindi le registrazioni. C 'è questo bellissimo quadro etico che la comunità della storia orale ha lavorato, in cui le persone coinvolte in un incontro sono entrambe autrici del prodotto. è un processo condiviso e collaborativo di produzione e di diffusione di conoscenza e cultura, definito come letteratura spontanea. Non so bene che abbia coniato questo termine. Che bel concetto! Poi non conoscendo molto la storia orale, ritengo che evochi una trasmissione di cultura che frecciere o non utilizzare la parola scritta, dall 'altro evoca anche qualcosa che ebbe inizio dopo l 'invenzione del registratore, quindi è un lasso di tempo piuttosto ampio. O certamente. Sicuramente quello che hai detto sulle storie sulla terra è una parte importante di questo progetto. Anche la storia delle culture che puoi trovare in un bicchiere divino e anche in questi piccoli pezzi di gergo, proverbi, modo di dire dialetto. Ho trovato un piacere così simile in queste due aree culturali che mi sono sentita spinta di cercare più lega a mi. Grazie mille per avvenne fatto parte. Sento che il mio lavoro professionale e le mie connessioni ultimamente sono state molto più nel vino, dove l 'interesse per la lingua è stato quello che consideravo più un hobby. Ma forse non è una distinzione così importante, mentre parlo mi viene in mente Per il dedicato molto tempo a entrambe le attività che si influenzano a vicenda, da decidere di fare un podcast, torniamo alla caratterizzazione dell 'adulto studente di lingue come esperto della loro esperienza. Hai condiviso con me alcune delle domande che usi nel tuo progetto di ricerca sulla seconda lingua e mi piacerebbe farti alcune di queste domande. Ci sono storie particolari che vorresti condividere sulla tua esperienza nel apprendimento delle lingue? Che lingue parli? E mi piacerebbe particolarmente che tu parlassi di qualcosa che hai menzionato sull 'inglese di tuoi noni. Penso che anche adesso sto guardando a un momento in cui avrò raggiunto la piena padronanza della mia seconda lingua. Sembra che forse tu abbia idee diverse su come pensare a quel sogno di piena fluidità. Ti ho appena fatto 7 domande in una. Sentiti libera di rispondere come preferisci? Fantastico, grazie per queste domande. Una delle prime cose che si hanno detto a scuola nella classe pratica di storia orale è stata che se ha intenzione di intervistare le persone su qualcosa che è rilevante per la tua vita dovresti farti intervistare sullo stesso argomento. Quindi apprezzo molto la domanda. Oddio, inizierò con la domanda che ricordo che quale è stata l 'ultima cosa che mi hai chiesto. Voglio sentire parlare della differenza tra bilinguismo e competenza. Forse inizieremo da lì e poi torneremo alla tua esperienza di apprendimento della lingua. Perfetto, grazie. Bilinguismo e competenza. Quindi ho fatto questa domanda alle persone perché ho in mente una risposta e mi chiedo se si allina con l 'esperienza di altre persone. Per me competenza significa essere in grado di far capire il tuo punto di vista ed essere praticamente in grado di esistere in una lingua e di soddisfare le tue esigenze, mentre il bilinguismo ha a più che fare per me con una traduzione di sé, come la capacità di esprimere te stesso, una versione della versione autentica di te stesso in un codice diverso. Dal mio punto di vista, gran parte dell 'insegnamento delle lingue convenzionali si concentra sulla competenza e penso che sia perché gran parte dell 'insegnamento delle lingue convenzionali è nel contesto dell 'istruzione obbligatoria e della formazione sul posto di lavoro. Penso che molti dei modi in cui ci viene insegnata interagire con le persone attraverso le lingue siano transazionali e penso che non sia solo questo. Quando gli anglofoni studiano lo spagnolo ad esempio, molto presto viene insegnato come ordinare qualcosa al ristorante, come chiedere il prezzo di qualcosa, quindi come fare cose molto basilari e transazionali. Se guardo ciò che le persone tendono a studiare quando sono principianti dell 'inglese, i materiali sono simili, certamente queste sono abilità pratiche necessarie, ma imparando come prepararsi per un colloquio di lavoro, è una specie di come si fa, ad esempio, di quale vocabolaria bisogna per affittare un nuovo appartamento. Ancora una volta queste sono cose importanti da sapere come fare, però personalmente ritengo che l 'emfasi su questo tipo di modalità transazionale di interazione sia fuori luogo, pensa cosa cercano le persone e io non posso parlare per le persone, posso parlare per me stessa, ma quello che cerco quando imparo una nuova lingua è di essere in grado di esprimerli, riuscire a far capire a qualcun altro che è seduto di fronte a me e mi ascolta chi sono come essere umano. Penso a linguaggi modelli, sia che tu stia parlando di voglio fittare un appartamento o che tu stai dicendo "ecco la storia della mia famiglia ed ecco cosa conta per me", stai ancora usando nomi, verbi, aggettivi, tempi, pronomi, oggetti, stai ancora usando gli stessi elementi e penso che ci sia un argomento da sostenere, scusa sto parlando molto e grazie che mi stai ascoltando, c 'è un argomento da sostenere per l 'insegnamento delle abilità pratiche ovviamente, ma penso che ci sia un argomento più forte da sostenere per offrire alle persone strutture e vocabulari che permettano loro di comunicare a sé stesse. Una volta che si è come dare un significato usando i modelli e il vocabolario di base di una lingua, puoi applicare tutti i modelli che hai imparato attraverso interessanti comunicazione autodirette e significative per l 'affitto di un appartamento e può imparare il vocabolario più facilmente in modo indipendente credo rispetto ad altri spetti della lingua. Quindi perché non imparare modelli facendo qualcosa che è personalmente interessante e che ti aiuta a svolgere lo sordinario compito creativo e inesatto di prendere te stesso in un certo contesto culturare, in un certo vocabolare, in un certo universo grammaticale e di tradurlo letteralmente. Tradurre credo che etimologicamente significa riportare. Come fa una persona a portare avanti se stessa? Sai, trasversalmente, in un contesto è un codice completamente diversi. Penso che questo sia il bilinguismo e penso che la competenza sia una specie di bilinguismo superficiale e come un trampolimono di lancio verso il bilinguismo. Tuttavia interessante perché quando chieda ad altre persone cosa significa bilinguismo hanno una comprensione completamente diversa. Molto interessante, sembra che con la tua definizione di competenza e le frasi transazionali che vengono insegnante quando studiamo verso la copetenza. Sembrino tutto è implicare di parlare con "estranei", giusto? Sto pensando alla amica che ha detto quello di cui ho veramente bisogno e un amico. È così che imparerei davvero. Pensando a lei sai, forse potrebbe andare ad affittare un appartamento, ma poi andrebbe a casa e le uniche persone con cui parlerebbe della sua vita non lo farebbe nel linguaggio transazionale, lo farebbe nella prima lingua. Persone che imparano dall 'amicizia, adoro questo concetto. Ho sicuramente trovato questo concetto di apprendimento attraverso l 'amicizia da sforire nella mia vita. Se solo potessi condividere la mia esperienza, gli ascoltatori di questo podcast potranno sentirmi parlare anche in iglese italiano e anche un po' in spagnolo per l 'italiano il momento che posso indicare, la pratica che posso indicare che ha spinto in avanti quello che chiamereste il mio bilinguismo, è stata una interlocutrice. Era la mia compagna di conversazione settimanale. Era come avere un amico di penna, era all 'inizio del blocco COVID, stavo lavorando in quel periodo con produttori divino italiani che venivano spesso in visita, avrei esercitato il mio italiano con loro, ma nessuno viaggiava, ne ho parlato sui social media, il mio italiano non sarebbe migliorato. E ecco che sono stata presentata da un 'amica in comune a questa donna meravigliosa Terry. Terry è una canadese che vive a Milano da 20 o 30 anni, esposata con un italiano e a casa parla un po' di inglese, ma più italiano. Era tanto entusiasta di avere qualcuno con cui parlare inglese allo stesso modo di cui lo ero io di parlare italiano. Le insegna anche inglese, quindi è stata molto paziente nello spiegarmi i concetti grammaticali. Paravamo semplicemente della nostra vita, di cosa stavamo cucinando, dopo aver fatto telefonate settimanali con terri per almeno un anno e mezzo. Finalmente ho avuto l 'opportunità di viaggiare di nuovo in Italia e sono rimasta scioccata di quanto fosse miriratto il mio italiano, quanto fosse più facile parlare italiano e comprendendo mi hai venuto in mente se quegli scambi fossero con amici o sconosciuti. Quindi Lindsay, credo nelle tue teorie così, come le ho viste realizzarsi nella mia vita, allora parli spagnolo lo so e hai studiato spagnolo e francese durante la tua esperienza universitaria. Per favore, parlami un po' della tua acquisizione linguistica. Ora queste parole suonando fredde. Mi stai facendo pensare a tutto questo in un modo nuovo. Devo chiederti invece della tua esperienza di apprendimento delle lingue? Sì, assolutamente. È bufo che tu dicca acquisizione. C 'è un movimento in questo momento. C 'è stata questa donna di nome da Jan Lars Offriman, che lavora all 'Università del Michigan e ha una mente meravigliosa. Da decenni si occupa dell 'insegnamento della seconda lingua, parla di come a lontanarci dal termine "acquisizione" della seconda lingua, perché una lingua è una cosa sfuggente, che in contina è evoluzione, è un sistema dinamico -compresso che non smette mai di cambiare. Il suo suggerimento è di usare la parola "sviluppo", ovvero "sviluppo" della seconda lingua, perché lo sviluppo è un processo continuo e senza fine, che non si ma mai. Per parlare della mia esperienza nell 'apprendimento delle lingue, sono stata fortunata ad avere i miei nonni. Il loro multilinguismo, credo, mi ha fatto sentire molto possibile il multilinguistro in un modo che non sembra possibile o raggiungibile per persone che crescono in una casa monolingue. Sono sicura di aver gravitato verso la lingua perché hanno fatto la lingua nello stesso modo in cui le persone spesso gravitano verso ciò che i loro i genitori fanno per vivere o ciò che ha fatto la loro famiglia. Ma sono stata fortunata l 'asilo, ha iniziato a imparare lo spagnolo in una piccola scuola privata e ci hanno promesso che con il loro programma linguistico avremmo parlato correttamente spagnolo in una decina di anni e così è stato. Voglio dire, abbiamo iniziato all 'esilo, mi sono divertita, insegnanti meravigliosi, adorabili, incoraggianti, che praticamente ogni giorno iniziano alla scuola solo parlando con noi, facendo cose divertenti in spagnolo. Mi interessava e penso che sia venuto tutto naturale. Per un 10 anni è seguito un programma continua, in cui gli istruttori sapevano esattamente a che pagina eravamo nel libro di testo dall 'inizio di ogni anno scolastico. È stato un programma molto continuo a cui poco poco, pezzo a pezzo, ci hanno aiutato a capire come funzionava le lingue e ci hanno forevognito il vocabolario necessario. Ma ci sono voluti dieci e un 11 anni, giusto, quindi è stato estremamente efficace per me, ma sono sempre 10 anni e penso che molte persone, anzi dire la maggior parte delle persone, non abbiano 10 anni per imparare una seconda lingua. Sono qui ora, queste persone devono saperlora, quindi mi sono sentita un po' estrania, ma riconosco che la mia esperienza come studente di lingue ha funzionato ed è stata meravigliosa, ma penso che non sia la strada per tutti. Ecco come ha imparato lo spagnolo. Invece ha imparato il francese durante un periodo libero al liceo. Sono andata per un mese a questo campo estivo e intensivo di francese, dove erano piuttosto severi a riguardo. Non ti permettevano di chiamare i tuoi genitori, sennò in certore del giorno. Tutto il materiale in lingua inglese era di contrabbando, non potevi avere un iPod se avessi avuto un contenuto di inglese e abbiamo quindi imparato in fretta. Penso di averlo iniziato con un semestre di francese elementare e alla fine del mese potrei parlare bene, quasi bilingue. Cos 'altro? Ho studiato altre cose, ho studiato ho studiato portoghese e mia nonna ha cercato di insegnarmi il tedesco, ma alla fine sono andata a casa su a tutti i giorni per l 'unestate e lei mi parlava in tedesco e io le dicevo solo "yaa, Grossmutter, nah, in Grossmutter". Cosa anche? La tua le progetto è il linguaggio dei segni americano, mia amica è della Colombia. In realtà penso che potrebbe essere nato qui, ma la dici in Colombia. ed è stato avanti indietro nella sua vita, quindi conosce la lingua dei segni colombiana, la lingua dei segni americana, l 'inglese e lo spagnolo e sta lavorando sul russo e sul linguaggio russo dei segni. È incredibile, ma tutto questo per dire che mi sta aiutando con questo progetto, la lingua dei segni è affascinante. Oh, è così interessante che tu sia stata in grado di seguire le orme della tua famiglia e ti sei interessata a così tante diverse modalità di espressione culturale mi chiedo se qualcuno stia pensando wow è fantastico per te sto solo cercando di imparare una lingua e mi sento molto intimidito adoro il fatto che tu abbia fornito Due esempi della tua vita, una che è stata al lungo termine e uno che è stato molto veloce e entrambi hanno raggiunto qualcosa per te in termini di compitenza. Mi referisco alla tua esperienza con la scuola rispetto al campo estivo a breve termine. Mi chiedo se qualcuno che si sente un scoraggiato nell 'imparare in una lingua. Cosa puoi condividere dalla tua ricerca fino ad oggi che può incoraggiare qualcuno a riuscire? Sai, questo incoraggierebbe le persone verso un obiettivo più specifico della loro vita, invece di pensare vagamente come sarò in l 'imparato di parlare questa lingua come un madrelingua e avrò raggiunto il mio obiettivo. Questa è una bellissima domanda e si noto che nella mia esperienza ho gitto in diversi modi, penso che la cosa più grande che in questo momento mi sento di comunicare alla persona è che non c 'è un modo per farlo, non c 'è un modo per imparare una lingua infatti. Quella donna di cui parlavo da Ian Larson Freeman, che pensa abbia una mente bella, complessa, interessante, ha fatto degli studi tecnici davvero interessanti sul percorso delle persone nell 'apprendimento delle lingue. Quando rappresenti l 'apprendimento delle singole persone su un grafica linee, visivamente puoi vedere e rappresentato che il viaggio di ogni persona è diverso. Ogni studente si sta concentrando su ciò che è interessante per se stesso, ciò che è naturale per se stesso, cosa è rilevante per se stesso, ma il modo in cui l 'istruzione strutturata, nei vari contesti educativi formali, è su una linea temporale, rigida e adatta a tutti. Quindi penso, numero uno, puoi farlo come vuoi, soprattutto per le persone che imparano nell 'inglese, penso che questo sia vero, almeno per tutte le lingue che ho studiato, che sono nell 'era di internet, c 'è davvero un vasto panorama mediatico in ogni lingua che ti interessa, ma soprattutto nell 'inglese, il panorama mediatico dell 'inglese è vastissimo, puoi imparare tutto ciò che ti interessa nell 'inglese e quindi prima di tutto penso che si debba trovare qualcosa di interessante. "Mia cara, penso che vada bene dire questo sulla mia amica reina che dice alla gente di trovare qualcosa di divertente, trova qualcosa che sia veramente divertente, non importa se non capisci al 100%, la cosa che stai guardando. Scegli un argomento che ti interessa, vai su YouTube trascorri 5 minuti, anche se sono solo 5 minuti imparando qualcosa che per te è interessante e vedi cosa ne puoi ricavare. Non esiste un solo modo giusto per farlo, ci sono tanti modi per imparare una lingua, quante sono le persone e poi trovo cose divertenti veramente interessanti per te e dedica agli del tempo ogni giorno. Grazie per aver ascoltato la prima parte dell 'intervista tradotta con Lindsay Sper, con Tiziana, Fournier, come doppiatrice. la seconda parte è in arrivo, metterò le informazioni sui progetti e riferimenti di Lindsay nella notte per la puntata ovunque tu vada e qualunque cosa tu beva ricorda di goderti la vita e di non smettere mai di imparare. Puoi seguire "Modo di Bere" su TikTok, Instagram e YouTube. Puoi diventare sostenitore del programma sul Patreon e accedere a più contenuti esclusivi ed educativi su www .mododibere .com. La musica è stata composta da Ercilia Prosperi per il gruppo www music .bandcap .com La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto, registrato, e montato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Steve Silverstein ha fornito assistenza audio. Tiziana Forni ha collaborato alla traduzione di questo episodio ed è stata doppiatrice di Lindsay Szper. ### ▷S1E9 Language is a Door: Lindsay Szper of Culture Without Borders (Part 2) URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e9-lindsay-spzer-part-2/ Last updated: 2026-08-26T03:06:28.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e9-lindsay-szper-parte-2/) Are children really better at learning language than adults? Is an unknown language a "barrier," or a door to another culture? What is an idiom, anyway? Lindsay Szper and Rose Thomas refer to Hannah Arendt on the mother tongue, James Baldwin on good bread, and the power of friendship to learn a language and to repair the world. Lindsay studies language pedagogy at The New School and is working on a masters in Oral History at Columbia. Listen to [Part 1 of this interview,](https://www.mododibere.com/podcast/english/s1e8/lindsay-szper-part-1) "What I Need is a Friend," to learn more about Culture Without Borders Language Collective (CWB), the community school for world languages that Lindsay co-founded. CWB believes the best way to learn language is through friendship. You can get in touch with Lindsay at cwblanguagecollective@gmail.com. Lindsay gave Rose Thomas this great working definition for "idiom": *An idiom is a collocation of words that tend to go together and represent a common cultural notion or understanding.* [Expand for auto-generated transcript.](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e8-lindsay-szper-part-1/) (Please excuse errors.) View Transcript You don't need to be perfect. You don't like the idea that you have to speak with perfect precision in the same way that a surgeon or a doctor has to do their craft with perfection and precision is not true of language education. He was like, language education needs to be a collaboration. If somebody doesn't know something, the rest of the group needs to help them. And so I think at least speaking from his experience kids were kids made it easier because they just like you're saying they took away they took away a lot shame yeah exactly exactly and shame is such a such a ugly thing in general so if we can take shame out of out of one place and it's a language classroom good welcome to the duty bearer Welcome to Modo de Bere, the podcast for local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. Today is the second part of my interview with Lindsay Spear. Lindsay is an oral historian and language student, language teacher who co -founded Culture Without Borders, an alternative language school that believes that the best way to learn language is through friendship. You can check out the last episode, What I Need as a Friend, to hear the first part of my interview with Lindsay. We're about to jump back in to Lindsay giving us some very practical advice about how to study and learn languages. But before we do that, I want to ask if you haven't given us a follow yet on social media, Modo di Bere is on TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook. And there is a lot of additional content there, videos of people teaching me and you, the kind of local sayings that are discussed in this interview, these idiomatic sayings that make you smile, that help you make friends that you can practice languages with. Go ahead and jump over there, give us a follow on Instagram, give us a follow on TikTok and see more from some of these guests and from some of the other people that I meet on my travels in the world of local drinks and local sayings. All right, let's get into it. Part two of my interview with Lindsay Spear. Remembering that there's no one right way to do this. There's many ways to learn the languages. There are people and then some. Finding things that are fun and genuinely interesting to you as a person. Giving it time every day, I struggle with discipline as a human being on this earth. But I think if you can Language is a skill, like any other skill, it requires time, consistency, practice. It's also an embodied practice. Language is an embodied practice. It's muscle memory as much as it is cognitive memory, so it's unrealistic to assume that you're gonna internalize knowledge and movements if you don't practice those movements on a regular basis. I also think, I have a long answer to this, I also think Vocabulary is generally, grammar can be kind of impenetrable, especially if you don't have a background in grammatical terms in your own language, it can be really tough to try to learn grammar in a language, especially if you're a beginner, my goodness. You don't know the word for ball, cup, spoon, school, and they're trying to teach you... Transitive. Exactly. Exactly. So I think Learning vocabulary is a really effective place to start. And learning vocabulary, that's common and useful. There's a linguist called Gabriel Weiner, who wrote a book I haven't finished called Fluent Forever, but in that book is this wonderful list of 625 vocabulary words that according to him, if you know these 625 words, you can communicate basically anything you want. Maybe it's not going to be clean and, you know, grammatically standardized, but you can get your point across. So learning high -frequency words, I think, is so helpful. And more than anything, just not being afraid to speak. I think so many people are immobilized by the fear of speaking, the fear, and it's normal. My goodness, like, It's normal, we're not often in our primary language, we're not often in a situation where we can't fully communicate our needs, thoughts, feelings, whatever to another person, and where our pronunciation is non -standard and our grammar is non -standard. And there are so many, unfortunately, so many assumptions that often come with having non -standard grammar and non -standard pronunciation. And so people sometimes feel, I think, so much weight and nervousness and paralysis around doing the thing and talking to people. But that's if that's– - That's the only way. - Yeah, yeah. - That's the only way is by talking to people. - And as a teacher, like as an idealist teacher, I want, it's been kind of my policy so far that like the desire to do the thing has to come from the student. Like I can't tell the person who's learning that they need to speak this language at this time. That's not for me to decide, that's for them. However, ideally, people will independently overcome their discomfort around language, like producing the new language. But I'm finding that when I ask people what helped them learn, kind of across the board, what people have said is that they learn when they're in a situation where they have no alternative. And so I'm wondering kind of as a teacher, as I get this response over and over again from people and all, you know, people that I encounter, what role, what role we have as a school, what role I have as a teacher to give people a little bit of a nudge and put them in a position where, okay, the stakes maybe aren't so high, you know this person's gonna be kind and good to you, but go do it, you know? - Maybe there's a relationship between fear and confidence. I remember one of my first moments where I felt, oh wow, I really do speak some Italian. I was working as a wine rep and this wonderful Italian family from the Teres Tregate winery in Campania. We're here and did not speak one word of English and I said, "Yes, I will take them around. I can do this." And it was one of the first chances, one of the first moments where there really was nobody around to step in. And I was going to be the only conduit for their story to the people that they hoped would buy or continue to buy their wine. And there was a moment, there were some funny moments, you know, with the translation process of mishearings as there always are. But there was a moment where I was translating and I had never done that in Italian before. And I think we were talking about the Alianico grape and I found myself explaining in English that the person I was translating had just said that Alianico is like a wild horse with blood that cannot be domesticated. And I just was you know so suddenly astonished that I was able to do that, that I was able to understand and convey this information. And it was only the opportunity where there was, there were no other Italian speakers to come in and say, "Oh, that's too, let me help you. I got this." I wouldn't have been able to find out that I could do that without there being no other alternative. I actually had a question that I would have been really curious about with language for a long time that I think ties really well into this, which is the concept of children versus adult learners, that it's this biological thing probably having to do with neuroplasticity that makes it so much easier for children and so incredibly hard for adults. And, you know, I'm assuming that this is the science. However, I wonder, And I have my own personal theory, having studied languages, but not, not linguistics or development, we'll say, instead of acquisition. But my thought is, maybe children do so much better, at least in part, because they have no shame. And my feeling with my own experience is that I learned by making mistakes in language, more so than almost anything else I've tried to learn. So I wonder if I'm onto something with this theory or if you have any thoughts about shame, you know, sort of those stages of human development from a child that's just hungry to learn these things and it's not embarrassed to get something wrong, just wants to learn and doesn't care and hasn't learned, you know, what they're not supposed to be like yet by society. Oh, heck yeah. I have so many thoughts on that. I'm like writing them down so that I remember to say all the things that I want to say. I totally, I very much agree with you. One thing about, I wish I remember which grammarian or linguist this idea came from, but someone who wrote one of the textbooks for my English teaching certificate talked about how there's this kind of common understanding or there's this There's this idea that makes its way around that kids are better at language learning than adults. Whoever this person is, I think it was Penny or but I'm not entirely sure. You've given us so many great resources and books. I'll just say now that we'll definitely be putting some links to the resources that you've mentioned and then we can add it in the notes in the podcast for everyone who wants to explore this further. Oh, very cool. Never - I never fear. - That's a great solution. Thank you. Whoever this person was, I think it was Penny Orr said that that's actually not, not necessarily true, because as adults, we have so many more cognitive– - Oh my goodness, there's still hope for me. As adults, we have so many more cognitive resources than kids. Kids are learning, like babies are learning everything all at the same time from how to eat to what the heck all these objects are for around us. Whereas adults, we already have a existing framework of cognitive skills and understanding of the world that we can put to the service of language learning. But something happens to adults that inhibits them from learning. And I think personally, it's exactly what you're saying. And there's this term in the language teaching field called the affective filter. The idea of the affective filter is that people can't learn language when their affective filter is, they can only learn when the affective filter is low, I think that's what they say, but basically what they mean by that is that people don't learn when they're anxious, that your resources, the resources of your brain are preoccupied with other things, with anxiety, with whatever is provoking your anxiety, and that inhibits you from taking in and retaining new information. And so this is a thing language people talk about, but I think that's true about language across the board. If you're anxious, uncomfortable, and preoccupied, How are you going to retain information? This idea that we teach people first how to do a job interview now seems incredibly counterproductive in the understanding that you're just describing. I have to impress someone for incredibly high stakes, and that's going to be how I learn how to speak a second language. Great. So one of my friends who I interviewed, his name is Jim. He's from Hungary originally and he was talking about his experience of migration to various places in the world. He was talking about how for a time, shortly after his family left Hungary, they were in Paris and he was talking about his experiences as an eight, nine -year -old boy. I think that was his age as a school -aged kid, learning French. And his discussion of the way that the French kids treated him was beautiful But honestly, like what we're going for, what I think we're going for in our school, he talked about how the kids in his class didn't see his lack of French knowledge as a deficit. It wasn't something that was wrong with him. It was simply a fact of his condition. And so he talked about how they just invited him into their games, how if he didn't know something he would express that he didn't know it and they would work to explain to him what was was going on. He talked a lot about how, and I completely agree with him, how language education can't be a competitive thing. Jim is an emergency room doctor, and so I was asking him about medical school. I was like, what, you know, medical school is competitive and it works. How does medical school work? How can we apply that to language school? And he was like, no, language learning isn't medical school. You don't need to be perfect. You don't, Like the idea that you have to speak with perfect precision in the same way that a surgeon or a doctor has to do their craft with perfection and precision is not true of language education. He was like, "Language education needs to be a collaboration. If somebody doesn't know something, the rest of the group needs to help them." And so I think at least speaking from his experience, kids made it easier because they, just like you're saying, they took away, they took away a lot. The shame. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And shame is such a, such a ugly thing in general. So if we can take shame out of, out of one place and it's a language classroom, good. Learning a second language or coming to learn something about wine for different or maybe similar reasons, who knows, can just be so intimidating to people such that the subject can be approached with an apology usually. "Oh, I don't know anything about wine," or "Oh, you know, I don't speak a word of," "Wish I did," "Goodness," "Don't remember my high school language studies," "Guess that was all the waste," you know, just this very apologetic entry into the conversation and that's something that I'm trying to help change for people and to give people a little encouragement to just go ahead and jump in and there's no perfection here. It's pretty impossible to really learn. I mean, I still learn new words in English all the time. Absolutely. I like to try to turn around the concept of vastness to try to diffuse the feeling of intimidation because if it's impossible to actually learn it all anyway, you might as well just do the best you can in something like the country of Italy, which has so, so, so many different grape varieties to learn about. I think some people will maybe even avoid it because they think the goal is to know all of them and like you can't, you know, that would be a wonderful life -womb journey to try to learn them all. You know, you just have to start somewhere. So, and it seems that you found that starting with a friendship or a relationship, I think that's a very beautiful insight that I hadn't really ever heard articulated. It sounds to me that this is gonna be a great language school. - Oh, I hope so. And one point related to, I couldn't agree with you more that like, it's just like my girl Diane Larson Freeman says, "It's an impossible task to learn a language because not only is the language so vast, it's also constantly changing. - True. - I watched– - Like with the Vintage's, right? With the wine. I will say that to people sometimes when they're obviously feeling quite intimidated. I'm like, listen, even if a master or sommelier could learn every wine in the world, which they can't, it would change the next year because it's a new vintage. Yeah, so it's a moving target. Absolutely. Yeah, if it is even a target in the traditional sense. And I got, I have a certification, like a national certification in medical interpreting. When I graduated college and then when I left college, I thought that's what I wanted to do forever was be an interpreter and a translator and translation and interpreting is fascinating worthy And one thing that, like I put a lot of pressure on myself, I think, because I wanted to do that profession, and I think many of the people who do that profession grow up bilingual. And I think I, not for anything that anybody else did or said, but I put a lot of pressure on myself to speak like a native to there's, and I think a lot of people do that. They want to speak like, I want to speak like a native speaker. I want to speak like a native speaker. native speaker. And I started when I was very young. I had a lot of support. It was normal to me to practice accents since my family had one. So I accomplished a pretty high level of Spanish where people, if I'm not talking for too long, people will ask me where's my family from and if I speak the language natively. If I speak for more than two minutes, it becomes obvious that this is my second language. But why am I telling you all this? I'm telling you all this because I think there's often a lot of pressure to attain a native level of language learning. I watched recently, YouTube's my favorite thing. I love YouTube. And my favorite three minutes on YouTube are this interview of Hannah Arendt, she's talking about a hundred things in this one hour interview, it's a beautiful, expansive interview. But my three favorite minutes are her talking about mother tongue. And She talks about how the interviewer asks her what she misses or what if she longs for Europe before Hitler and he asks what Europe is different now, the interview is taken in the 60s and the interviewer asks Europe's different now, what remained? Through all of this, what of Germany, what of Europe remains? And her answer is the language remains, the language didn't go crazy. And then she goes into this You know, she lived in the United States. I think she also lived in France, maybe in Israel for a time But she talks about how for her or just in general, there's nothing like your mother tongue How she says for her in German. She says I have always these, you know Thousands hundreds of poems and nursery rhymes in the back of my mind in German and I'll never attain that in a second language There's so much we have so much lived experience in our primary language that is irreplaceable. And I think for me it was a wait -off. She in that interview talks about how she's maintained a certain distance from the languages that she's learned as a second language. There's nothing like German for her and she speaks her non -native languages in an unidiabatic way that's indicative of not having forgotten her first language. And that just took a wait -off for me. It took a wait -off for me to understand that You can get really proficient, really bilingual. You can attain a very, very, very high level of bilingualism. And still there's no substitute for an entire childhood lived in a certain cultural code. And so I liked that. That helped me. That's beautiful. I love Hannah Arendt. Isn't she the best? Yes. I believe I have something on my nightstand right now. Yeah, I love what you just said. It almost causes one to take more pride in the language that you have instead of thinking, "Oh, well, it's just the one." You know. Yeah. I would be remiss with someone in front of me who knows so much about linguistics, not to ask you a little bit about the the topic of the linguistic topic of this Moto Du Berry project, which is idiomatic language, which you started to speak about just just a little bit just now. And so these these specific kind of phrases and verbs and that have just found to be so delightful to me and really a way of making France. I learned Italian from people from winemakers from all over the country and we would speak general Italian, but then I became interested because I was taught these really fun and sweet phrases in the local language, we'll say, And it really is, now that you've been talking about friendship, I will say it's a way of making friends. I'll meet someone who's speaking Italian and I'll say, "Oh, where are you from?" They'll say, "I'm from Italy." And I'll say, "Where?" And they'll say, "I'm from Napoli." And then I can say, "Does your grandmother call an elevator the tram of the wall?" And without fail, the reaction is generally to sort of gasp and grab my arm and say, "Where did you learn that? Who taught this to you? How do you know this? Who are you? Why are you interested in this?" And I'm very interested in this exact, beautiful, you know, not proficient fill -in -the -blank language, but this local, colorful little pieces and phrases and words and proverbs. And yeah, what happens then is that we're friends. You know, what happens is that we're friends and we can, we start talking about our homelands and, you know, swapping restaurant recommendations and then we're really having a conversation. So oddly, this thing that is so vastly removed from where is the train station becomes a much better conversation starter in my experience with meeting new people. So I just wonder if you can tell us from this amazing scientific background that you have that I'm just barely beginning to scratch the surface of, what do you mean by speaking a language idiomatically and what are these marvelous phrases that I'm attracted to and how can we think about them in the context of the larger idea of language? - Oh, interesting, interesting question. Am I understanding idiomatically just means something that sounds, when you speak a language idiomatically, it sounds natural to a person who grew up in that language. Am I understanding? Though I don't know that that's the dictionary definition. - What about as opposed to the word idiom? - Idiom, idiom I understand as, I guess, like a phrase or or a saying that, "Oh, maybe this is an interesting word from language teaching. My friend, my teacher and friend Jean Lambert taught me this. She calls it a collocation. A collocation is a group of words that together have a specific meaning. So for example, you can have oil and tanker. I'm working on a translation about an oil tanker. That's why this comes to mind. But you can have oil and tanker, and those are two separate things. And oil tanker is a unit of words that together mean something different. So collocation is any group of words that often go together. I think an idiom is a collocation with like, that represents like a common cultural notion or understanding maybe. - Well, I noticed something when I asked you about the word idiom is you just began to smile. - Yeah. - And I wonder Especially if it's not just that I take delight in these phrases, like that we could trade it. When I'm collecting them, I'll say sometimes to get someone to know what I mean, because your mind tends to go blank, what's the proverb, oh, I don't know. But I'll say, well, what do you say when it rains a lot? You know, it's, you know, we'll say it's raining cats and dogs. But I learned in Italian, piove sul bagnato, it rains on the wet. And I would say, "Oh, okay. Well, we say when it rains it pours." And so I wonder if it's not just that I take delight in them, but that what definitionally sets them apart is that they're kind of sweet. What do you think about that? I think they are kind of sweet. And as you're talking, I'm thinking about a conversation I had yesterday, actually, with a friend named Anna. We're working on a presentation for a class we're in on embodiment and specifically translation and interpreting as embodied practices. And we were trying to figure out what to present on. And one thing that I'm interested to present on is sort of a summary of Walter Benjamin's essay, The Task of the Translator. Have you read it before? It's a beautiful essay. It's very dense. There's this YouTube video of 15 minutes of a guy who explains it quite nicely. But one part of that essay and one thing that my friend and I are expecting to talk about is that Benjamin said, Walter Benjamin says that the word "brode", which I'm not pronouncing right, but the word "brode" to a German person means something different from the word "pen" to a French person. And both those words refer to bread, but the notion of bread in French is different from the notion of bread in German as it is in Korean, Portuguese, English, sign language. Well, sign language is maybe not such a good example, but because they're sign languages from all over the world. But anyhow, all that to say like the notions that we hold about things culturally are particular to the groups and places and regions that we come from. But one thing that Anna was telling me, she's wonderful. She's a human rights advocate of Haitian descent in the Dominican Republic, advocating for the rights of people of Haitian descent and Afro descendants all over the world. She's unbelievable. She's believable. She's real and she's lovely. But what she said, her suggestion for this presentation we're doing was that what's lovely about language is that when you have a particular word from a particular language, it does call up a particular cultural notion, but at the same time, bread exists across all these cultures. There are differences, but those differences are subtle, and the thing, the concept is universal. She was talking about the word "mom." It's interesting in French, the word maman is kind of situated right between mom and mother. It doesn't have the emotional weight of mom or like the closeness and intimacy of mom, but it doesn't have the coldness of mother either. And so there's this spectrum of distinction across languages, but also the mother is, I can't imagine any language where mother doesn't exist. So I think maybe idioms may be part of what's so compelling and maybe part of what ignites friendship around idioms is the idea that cultures have very different ways of expressing very similar shared ideas. Yes, I love this example of bread. I was struck recently, I was reading, I think it was in The Fire Next Time by James Baldwin. He's talking about in this incredible essay fashion about all of these really large problems in society and he just takes a moment and he says, and another thing, why are we eating this terrible bread? And he starts talking about, you know, I don't know if he was talking about kind of wonders of food science, bleached loaves and, but he was talking about enjoyment and how this was so important, you know, you have to enjoy yourself. It's as vital as any of these other things that he was talking about that people like to think might be more important. And I was just, this isn't in the story, but I was imagining Baldwin in Paris finding some bread and thinking, oh my god, where has this been? Now this is bread. Wait a second, I need to make sure that everyone knows to have this experience with bread. We haven't really talked much about travel, except for as it's implicit in, you know, why people would suddenly find themselves having that necessity or drive to, you know, but once you're in another place and you learn, yeah, you learn not just another word from bread, but you learn a new bread, you know, which is so lovely. Maybe we'll have a spinoff podcast that's just to collect and compare all the different types of bread. This could be endless - And wonderful and delicious. Goodness, I'm just so happy to have this discussion with you. It's ignited many new ideas about language learning for me. Thank you so much. We will definitely put links in the show page to all of these fantastic books and resources that have come to mind for you in sharing these ideas. But maybe you could tell us if there is somewhere online at this moment where people can find your project and learn more about what you're doing. There's not yet. I'm working on it. But you can email us. You can email us at cwblanguagecollective @gmail .com. That's great. That'll work. I also have like three more thoughts on something that you said before. Can I see? Please, please. One is that you talked about asking for idioms as a way to make friends. But one thought that has been fun to turn over and over in my head lately is that we talk often about a language barrier. We consider language a barrier between people and something to overcome. But in reality, I think what's language is, it's fun, all the paradoxes that live in the practice of language. Language is a barrier, but it's also the door to a culture. And I think by, by expressing, by learning the language, by really putting in the effort to learn a language, because it is effort and takes time. I think that demonstrates to people like a real, it's a demonstrated interest in a culture and it's a reason for somebody to let you in. I was also thinking about language as a, language as, or asking for idioms as a route to friendship. Just because we were talking about Hannah Arryn, or Hannah Arryn, I'm not sure how to pronounce the name correctly. I think friendship is a good means, from where I'm standing, friendship is the best means for language development. But I also think that friendship is kind of one of the key things to fixing our dystopic world. I think we're socialized to understand ourselves as dividing along identity lines, language lines, socioeconomic lines, and another quote, or another line in that interview from Hannah Arendt that I find so impactful, is that she's talking about how friendship transcends political divisions, and I think it really does, how when you're friends with someone, how people organize in political groups in order to achieve certain concrete, shared goals that they have, or meet certain shared needs that they have, but you can, when you're a friend with someone, you're relating with them as an individual, as she says, independent of your relation to the rest of the world. So I think, I don't know, I look around, I'm 29 years old, I've been around in this world for 29 years, I'm like an old young person now. And I look around and there's a lot of stuff, frankly, about the way that the world is set up and organized that I think is really sad and wrong and messed up. And if I chew on how to respond to that. One response, I mean, I don't think you, I think it's naive to say that friendship is gonna fix all the world's problems, but I think it's a place to start. I think developing a genuine friendship with someone allows us to see outside our own reality and makes real and personal the experience of somebody else who fundamentally is, it's gonna be different than yours. I guess that leads to the last thing that I was gonna say, which is that I hope this doesn't mess you up, but you had asked to come with a saying. - Oh, please. Oh, no, no, no, the collection, perhaps, would you call it oral history, a collection of idiomatic sayings from around the world? - I would call everything oral. - Okay, yes, but that's what we do here. Please, please give us a phrase. It's not a saying necessarily from my region, I take this from my friend Florencia, she's from Mexico City, and she taught this to me recently. It also translates really, really well, and I imagine it translates into lots of languages easily, but the saying is cada cabeza es un mundo, and I bet knowing Italian, you can guess what that means, or knowing Spanish too, it means every head is a world, and every human being is a universe, a cosmos, and I think that's what draws me to this thing called oral history. That's what draws me to the field of education. And that's what motivates me personally to push education in new directions because we have so tremendously much to learn from any other person and any other individual. And I think, yeah, cada cabeza es un mundo. Every person is a universe of stories and knowledge and skills. And so I hope our school can be a place where people can share those skills with others and also where we can just learn from each other in an organic and enjoyable way. - That is so beautiful. Thank you so much. I love that phrase. It's really, it makes me think of a moment. You know, I think I was probably a young teenager and I had just learned the definitions of the words connotation and denotation and I had what at the time just felt like a teenage deep thought that maybe I've disregarded until this moment and when I'm remembering it from the phrase you just taught me but I thought, "Oh my goodness, connotations are different for everyone. Everyone has their own set of connotations, and that means that there are as many languages as there are people. - Mm -hmm. - And I hadn't thought about that in a long time until you taught me the phrase that (speaks in foreign language) - You got it. - Beautiful. Oh, I love that. that is such a beautiful phrase to share with this podcast. Thank you so much to my guest, Lindsay Spear, for coming to teach us so many things and also to introduce this wonderful language school culture without borders that we will all be awaiting hearing more about. And thank you to everyone who is listening to this podcast. Wherever you go and whatever you drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Find out more at motodiberi .com, where you can also read the blog. Music for the podcast was composed by Ercilia Prosperi and performed by the band OU. You can purchase their recordings at oumusic .bandcamp .com. Otro, se engañando, se dejan separarse mismo Lindsay and Rose Thomas refer to many brilliant texts and people in this episode, listed below for further inspiration. Gabriel Wyner, author of *Fluent Forever*, says [these 625 vocabulary words](https://fluent-forever.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/625-List-Alphabetical.pdf?ref=mododibere.com) will let you communicate in any language. Rose Thomas mentions the mom and dad from the Campania winemaking family of the[ Terre Stregate](https://www.terrestregate.it/en/?ref=mododibere.com) estate. [Penny Ur](https://www.cambridge.org/us/cambridgeenglish/authors/penny-ur?ref=mododibere.com), a language pedagogy specialist, considers some of the advantages adult language learners have (compared to children) when learning a language. More information on [University’s Oral History Master of Arts (OHMA) Program](http://oralhistory.columbia.edu/?ref=mododibere.com) and the [Certificate in Teaching English program](https://www.newschool.edu/teaching-english-certificate/%22?ref=mododibere.com) at The New School. More information about [the "affective filter"](https://seidlitzblog.org/2020/09/22/what-is-the-affective-filter-and-why-is-it-important-in-the-classroom/?ref=mododibere.com). Lindsay also referred to the language scholar [Dianne Larson Freeman](https://youtu.be/pX6UZNQXL%5Fw?ref=mododibere.com) in Part 1 of the interview. Lindsay's favorite three minutes on the internet begin at 36:51 during this [interview with Hanna Arendt](https://youtu.be/dsoImQfVsO4?ref=mododibere.com), broadcast in 1964. Lindsay presented on the Walter Benjamin essay ["The Translator's Task"](https://german.yale.edu/sites/default/files/benjamin%5Ftranslators%5Ftask.pdf?ref=mododibere.com) with her friend [Ana María Belique](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yj01OVonkU&ref=mododibere.com), a leader and founding member of the the [Reconoci.do movement,](https://www.reconoci.do/?ref=mododibere.com) an independent national civic network that promotes human rights and the full integration of Dominicans of Haitian descent in Dominican society. Lindsay mentioned this [15-minute video on Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbGIREz0ak0&ref=mododibere.com) by Robin Waldun that summarizes the Benjamin essay. Reflections on the French word maman come from Waldun’s video. Lindsay learned the saying "Cada cabeza es un mundo" from her friend [Florencia Ruiz Mendoza](http://oralhistory.columbia.edu/current-student-bios/people/florencia-ruiz-mendoza-2022?ref=mododibere.com), a researcher, lecturer, activist, and longtime advocate against forced disappearance in Mexico. This is the [James Baldwin quote about bread ](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/8117303-to-be-sensual-i-think-is-to-respect-and-rejoice?ref=mododibere.com)from *The Fire Next Time.* --- Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Wines of Campania ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s2e10-the-boot-in-20-campania-susannah-gold/) [ "What I Need is a Friend" ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e8-lindsay-szper-part-1/) ### ▷S1E8 “What I Need is a Friend”: Lindsay Szper of Culture Without Borders (Part 1) URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e8-lindsay-szper-part-1/ Last updated: 2026-08-26T03:10:39.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e8-lindsay-szper-parte-1/) Lindsay Szper and her pals believe the best way to learn language is through friendship. Modo di Bere agrees! Lindsay is a language teacher and a language learner by vocation. She’s studying language pedagogy at The New School and working on a masters in Oral History at Columbia. In this deep, funny, sweet and smart interview, Lindsay tells Rose Thomas about the community-based language school she started with her friends. She also shares stories about her remarkably multilingual grandparents, the playground "exam" for the language Lindsay invented as a child, and tons of incredibly encouraging advice for acquiring--no, developing!--new language skills. [Listen to Part 2 of the Interview: Language is a Door](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e9-lindsay-spzer-part-2/) To find out more about Culture Without Borders and to learn about their events in the New York City Area, you can get in touch with Lindsay at cwblanguagecollective@gmail.com. This is the book Lindsay mentioned: [Rethinking Oral History and Tradition](https://global.oup.com/%3Cwbr%20/%3Eacademic/product/rethinking-%3Cwbr%20/%3Eoral-history-and-tradition-%3Cwbr%20/%3E9780190681685?cc=us&lang=en&&ref=mododibere.com) by Nepia Mahuika Here is a [YouTube video](https://youtu.be/pX6UZNQXL%5Fw?ref=mododibere.com) featuring the language scholar Dianne Larson Freeman, and [a paper that she wrote](https://%3Cwbr%20/%3Eenglishforbeachpurposes.files.%3Cwbr%20/%3Ewordpress.com/2013/12/%3Cwbr%20/%3Elarsenfreeman%5F2006-the-%3Cwbr%20/%3Eemergence-of-complexity-%3Cwbr%20/%3Efluency-and-accuracy-in-the-%3Cwbr%20/%3Eoral-and-written-production-%3Cwbr%20/%3Eof-five-chinese-learners-of-%3Cwbr%20/%3Eenglish.pdf) about language learning One of the friends Lindsay mentions, Reina, advises studying language through media about a topic that is fun for you. Reina is a small business owner in New York City, check out [Reina's Cleaning Services LLC.](https://%3Cwbr%20/%3Ereinascleaningservicesllc.com/) **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript What do you actually need to speak English if you feel like you're not getting there now? And she responded. She said, "What I need is a friend." She said, "My daughter speaks Spanish. My work is in Spanish. My friends and family speak Spanish. I need a friend. How am I going to learn if I don't have somebody to talk to?" Welcome to Modo di Bere, The podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. Today's conversation is with Lindsay Szper, an oral historian and co -founder of the Culture Without Borders Language Collective, an alternative community language school that believes the greatest tool for learning language is through friendship. I was so interested to hear about Lindsay's second language research project as well, which is an investigation into the real methods that adult language learners use to learn new languages. Lindsay grew up in Southern California as a member of a remarkably lingual family. As you know, Modo di Bere is interested in idiomatic phrases, slang, so -called dialect, and the stories that these pieces of language can tell us about human culture. I expect we'll focus more on the language side today, and I can't wait to hear all about culture without borders, but I'd like to start by asking about a local drink of any type, not just wine, not just alcohol, that you may have encountered in your childhood or on your travels? - So you gave me a heads up on this question and first I was gonna answer a very boring answer that my favorite drink is seltzer water, which I suppose is actually a pretty New York local drink. I've never lived in a place where seltzer is so common as it is in New York but I think a more interesting answer is that my grandparents were from Eastern Europe, my dad's mom was from Lithuania and my dad's dad was from Poland and one specific thing about them that is that they had they would always drink their warm drinks out of or not always but they would often drink warm drinks out of clear glass mugs and it was that was not a thing that I really remarked on until I got older and I went over to a friend of a friend's house who was I think they're Russian or Asetian and they also drink all their hot drinks out of clear glass mugs and so I don't know I just I found that remarkable I remember my grandpa who was a funny round man with a very thick Polish accent and I have very few memories of him because he best when I was five. But I remember him drinking coffee out of clear glass mugs. And I have my brother and I have, when we cleaned out my grandparents house, we each kept one of them. So every time I pull it out, I think of my brother and my grandpa. That's lovely. Thank you so much for sharing that. That's really cool. You mentioned so many different languages sort of in your family history. Can you tell me some of the different languages that and parents spoke? - Yeah, sure. I grew up in a monolingual household. So my parents, well, I grew up in an English speaking household. My dad knows some languages, but generally at home we spoke English. My dad's parents were extensively multilingual. So my dad's, I don't even remember. I can't even give you the full list, but my dad's dad spoke 11 languages. - Wow. - The ones that come to mind now are Polish, Yiddish, English, Spanish, French, Swedish. Oh goodness. German. A handful of other things. My grandmother spoke also Swedish, Polish, Lithuanian, English. What else? What else? What else? A whole host of things. Really a whole host of things. Russian. They each spoke Russian, but in my immediate family we spoke English at home and I kind of grew up thinking that people from Europe were just very multilingual and then as I got older it became clear that the reason my grandparents spoke so many languages on one hand of course was because they were good at it and on the other hand was because of the historical moment they were born into, they were Jewish and they survived the Holocaust and so their movement around the planet, right, is, of course they had interest in language, but they also learned out of necessity and as a result of the political situations that their countries were in when they were grown up. - Did you become interested in language as a child because of learning about that history or did your interest in languages come to you later on? - For me, language was an always thing. And I can't imagine that it doesn't have to do with my grandparents. I think they're, I mean, first of all, just the fact that they, I'm an English teacher now. I'm studying to become an English teacher and we're starting a language school. But I think I've thought a lot recently about the fact that the fact that my grandparents spoke an unusual version of English, I think really normalized for me the fact that people who learn English as a second language can communicate themselves fully and richly in a way that's different from the standard. But I think I'm not answering your question. I think language was an always thing for me. Like when I was in the second grade, my friends and I made up a language called Paparuga. we would host a little language lessons on the playground, giving people evaluations on how they were doing. - Oh, that's marvelous. I was going to ask you about some encounters with idiomatic phrases or proverbs from your family experience that were funny or just memorable, but I have to ask you, do you remember any paparuga? - Oh my goodness. - I do, I do, it was that in order to greet people, you had to make this really specific sound and you had to say pop out. And if people couldn't make that sound, they weren't able to pass the language exam. They had to keep taking it and taking it at recess until they could say that. - That is brilliant and absolutely adorable. I'm so glad you shared that story with us. - I didn't answer your question. It's funny, maybe in oral history interviews the way that they tend to go is that they're like winding and all over the place so I feel myself doing that but your original question was about where the interest in language came from and if it came from my grandparents and I think the answer is absolutely I think just my brother talks about their house we made a movie about it and he talks about how their house was like a museum and it's so it so was especially my grandfather's things He was an international lawyer in Poland. And then when he came here, he did various different jobs. I think my grandma said he worked in a pharmacy that I'm not entirely sure. And ultimately, he ended up working as a social worker, helping other refugee families to get their papers and get the things that they needed to be citizens. And as tokens of appreciation for the work that he had done with them, people would give him a lot of things. so you would be in their house, we have videos of it, my brother and I took some videos as we were cleaning the place up and it's sort of similar to your house, it's like you can travel all over the world just in one bookshelf of theirs or they just had all these trinkets from all over the place that weren't, they weren't meaningless trinkets that you pick up off for example the street of the Brooklyn Street economy, it was like these objects from people from all over that had been specifically gifted to them. And my grandparents, my grandmother, I didn't know my grandfather well, but she had a wonderful memory for details. And so she could tell you where each of these things, each of these objects came from. - Sounds like a marvelous place. - Yeah, that's a cool place. - Wow, with tremendous people. I would love to see some of those videos sometime. Did you produce anything or share them anywhere Or was it just kind of for your own family, the movie you made with your brother? I hadn't originally planned to do anything with it. I'm very new to this whole landscape of media and art production. I was working in personal injury law and medical interpreting for the last four or five years. But I took a workshop class, an oral history workshop class, and that's what we made the movie for. My hope is to, I don't know, it's a pipe dream. We'll see if it happens. But my hope is to, I built some language learning resources around it, you know, some little activities that people can watch our video and then practice translation, answer some conversation questions. So my hope is to eventually lead workshops, language workshops with that as a text that people can learn from and hopefully further out once I'm more comfortable with production and know a little bit more what I'm doing or connect with people who know what they're um, to put on some sort of workshop where people who are learning language can make their own audiovisual, um, autobiographical essay just out of their own conversations, 'cause it's our video is Jay and myself, that's my brother's name, it's us talking about our, my grandparents, um, overlaid with videos of the house, and I'm, I'm an amateur. If I can do that, somebody else can do that, so my hope is to make, um, to eventually make a workshop where people learn language and practice language and translation through that process of producing a piece of media that's personally meaningful to them. Well, we love, we love pipe dreams and amateurs here at, at, um, at Motardee Berry. In fact, as I was looking at some of the materials for the language school that you co -founded, I love the way that you talk about second language learners as, as experts and you're calling them experts, which I thought was really beautiful. Maybe you could just tell us, introduce a little more about Culture Without Borders and the Second Language Research Project. - Sure, thank you, and thank you so much for asking and giving me an opportunity to talk about these things and articulate them. Culture Without Borders Language Collective is a community initiative, or it's a thing that I got started with some friends, many of whom were students and an ESL class I was teaching at the time. The way I tell the story is that my friend Ruth was acing my class. She was getting all A's on these tests, these formal assessments that the community center I was teaching was telling me to put out. And yet at the same time she was telling me like I don't feel like I speak English. And so I asked her, I was like, what do you need? You're acing my class. You're getting A's on all these tests. What do You actually need to speak English if you feel like you're not getting there now. And she responded. She said, "What I need is a friend." She said, "My daughter speaks Spanish. My work is in Spanish. My friends and family speak Spanish. I need a friend. How am I going to learn if I don't have somebody to talk to?" And as a person who's been a language learner, who is a language learner, I feel like she hit the nail on the head. But I think When I think about what has helped me learn language, what helps people learn language, it's relationships. And I think we try to teach so often in conventional language teaching, we're in a classroom getting ready, getting ready, getting ready for interactions with real life people. But the classroom environment is so specific that all that work, so much of the work that people are putting into language learning in a classroom really doesn't transfer in real life because the conditions are so different. And so our goal, we've done a handful of things. We're still getting organized, but there's people believe in us and people who are part of the group have started talking about it like a thing that really exists and that's exciting. But what have we done. Our first event was a potluck in Central Park. We went to the bronx zoo in 2021 and just did a little multilingual get together to learn about animals. I'm thinking what else, what other fun things have we done? This upcoming month, we're having a billiards day. One of my friends is really interested in billiards, so she's teaching that bilingually. And this one I'm very excited about is that in March we're having a friend is studying oral history in order to improve the representation of indigenous peoples of Latin America and another friend is from what's now Guatemala and speaks an indigenous language from their Kiche and another friend studies museum anthropology and decolonization in museums and so together that group and maybe others are going to lead a trip to the Met to look at an exhibit about Mayan art, divinity in Mayan art, so that's cool. That sounds amazing. And you asked about the second language research project as well. I mean, you described it far more concisely than I would have, and I think beautifully, but basically the idea is interviewing people who've had success in learning second languages in order to figure out what worked and I think, and what didn't, just to leverage the lived experience of people who've done the thing to make the process better for people who are actively doing the thing. I think so many people are really discouraged when they're trying to learn a new language, they feel alone and like the task is impossible. And my hope is that by interviewing people who've done it, those who feel discouraged will A, recognize that this is possible, all kinds of people do it and B, feel alone in, in the struggle and the work to translate yourself to a whole other cultural code. The second language research project is also part of your work for your master's degree program in oral history at Columbia, right? So I think the concept of when you said that you were doing oral history, I just found that really interesting. So tell us a little bit about what your experience has been with the concept of oral history or what drew you to this field. Thanks for asking. You primed me for this question too but as I was coming over here on the subway I'm like how the heck am I going to answer that? Oral history is such a watery thing. I think part of the official narrative of oral history or the way that the oral history program got started at Columbia University was at a man named, this is my understanding, that a man named Alan Nevins, shortly after the tape recorder came into existence, decided that he was gonna interview people who were generally conventionally successful about their life experience, their life history, and that they were gonna save these long form recordings. Oral history is sort of like, oral history in the sense of Alan Nevins, as I understand it, is kind of long form life interview that's kept in an institutional archive and preserved for the future for posterity. But the field is so cool for a trillion reasons, one of them being it's very critical of itself and very self -aware. And so that's one version of oral history is Alan Nevins, his life histories and Columbia University Oral History Archives. But there's also the thing runs so much deeper. You could consider indigenous tradition and history -keeping tradition, oral history. You could consider the work of griots in, I think it's West Africa and those musicians and cultural knowledge keepers. You could consider that oral history or in reality, I think I have a friend who's a Spanish professor and she has this awesome association of interesting, thoughtful people. And they recently, in an online event they were putting on, talked about cultural studies as a field. To me, I think, and as I understand cultural studies, it's like the interaction of human culture with everything. That term, to me, I think cultural studies in a way encapsulates oral history because for me I think oral history is like the it's the transmission of culture right it's storytelling and cultural transmission there's this um I'm talking in circles but there's an indigenous oral historian of mayor I'm not pronouncing it correctly I don't think Nogati Poru the Nogati Poru tribe of what I think is now New Zealand and he talks about he wrote this really kind of groundbreaking oral history book recently about how academia has pushed indigenous thinking on oral tradition outside of its boundaries, and he talks about how memory is held for, and I don't want to speak for him, I don't want to misspeak for him, he has a wonderful book, it's called Rethinking Oral History and Tradition, but he talks about how for his, For his people, for the group he belongs to, memory is in so much more than just recordings. Like an oral, like he talks about mnemonic devices and just the people, I think this is probably interesting to you though I'm not articulating it particularly clearly, but he talks about and a lot of indigenous thinkers talk about connection to land and the way that landmarks people keep their historical cultural knowledge alive through stories about the land that their people have learned over years to survive in. So that's a very watery, windy answer. But for me, I think oral history is culture and storytelling and knowledge production, also collaborative knowledge production. Now, in this day and age, where we do have tape recorders, we do have recording, there's this beautiful kind of ethical framework that the oral history community has worked to come up with, where in the people involved in an encounter are both authors of the literature, like the spontaneous literature, I don't know who I'm taking that phrase from, but they're both authors of the product that it's a shared collaborative process of producing and disseminating knowledge and culture? - Yes, I love to think about when, you know, just coming cold to the term, I feel it evokes either some transmission of culture that predates or doesn't use the written word or something that began after the invention of the tape recorder. So that's a pretty wide, wide swath of time. Yeah, definitely what you said about stories about the land is a big part of this project and the story about culture that you can find from a glass of wine, for instance, and also from these little pieces of slang, proverbs, idiom, dialect, and to tell kind of a story about, I found a similar delight in these two areas that I felt moved to look for more connections between the two. So thank you so much for being a part of that. I feel like my professional work and connections lately have been much more in wine, where the language interest has been what I considered more of a hobby, but maybe that's not such an important distinction as I've been talking to you. I've spent a lot of time on both pursuits and they clearly impact one another enough that I decided to start a podcast about it. Coming back to your character position of adult language learners as the experts on their experience, I wanted to turn around one particular question that I know you use in your second language research project back to you and just say, are there any particular stories that you would like to share about your experience learning languages and what languages did you speak? And I would love particularly for you to speak to something you mentioned about your grandparents English as well, which I think might speak to this concept I found in the materials you sent me about the culture without borders. I was really intrigued by this phrase, the differences between bilingualism and proficiency. And I think even now I'm thinking of a moment where I will have arrived at full fluency. And it seems like maybe you have some different ideas about how to think about that. And there was, I just asked you seven questions in one, pick up anywhere you would like. - Awesome, awesome. Thank you for asking me this question. They told us in school, one of the first things they told us in the history fieldwork class was that if you're going to interview people about something that's relevant to your own life, you'd best get interviewed about that thing. So I really appreciate the question. I'll start with the question I remember, which is, what's the last thing you asked me? Oh, well, I want to, let's say there's two questions. I want to talk, I want to hear from you about the difference between bilingualism and proficiency. Maybe we'll start there and then we'll get back to your own experience learning language. - That's perfect, thank you. Bilingualism and proficiency. So I asked people this question because I have a very, I have kind of an answer in mind, and I wonder if it tracks with other people's experience. For me, proficiency means being able to get your point across and being able to practically exist in a language and get your practical needs met. Whereas bilingualism has more to do for me with the translation of self, like a capacity to express yourself, a real authentic version of yourself in a different code. And from my perspective, I think a lot of conventional language teaching focuses on proficiency. And I think that's because a lot of conventional language teaching is compulsory education and workplace readiness training. I think a lot of the ways that we're taught to interact with people across languages are transactional. And I think that's not just for English speakers learning Spanish, for example, who vary early on. And this is practical. You need to know how to do this. But who vary early on are taught how to order something in a restaurant, how to ask the price for something, just how to do very basic transactional things. Or if I look at what people tend to be studying or what people were studying in the class I was teaching for beginners, beginner learners of English that are learning, and again, these are practical necessary skills, but they're learning about how to prepare for a job interview, how to, you know, what vocabulary you need in order to run to new apartment. And granted, those are important things to know how to do, but I personally think the emphasis on these sort of transactional modes of interaction is misplaced. I think it's, I think what people are going for, and I can't speak for people, I can speak for myself, what I'm going for when I'm learning a new language is to be able to express myself, to be able to make, make someone else who's sitting in front of me and listening to me understand who I am as a human being. And I think language is patterns whether you're talking about I want to buy an apartment or rent an apartment or you're talking about you know here's my family history and here's what matters to me you're still using nouns verbs adjectives whatever tenses pronouns objects you're still using all the same things and I think there's an argument to be made I'm talking a lot thank you for listening there's an argument to be made for teaching practical skills of course But I think there's a stronger argument to be made for offering people structures and vocabularies that allow them to communicate them themselves, because A) that's more rewarding, B) that's more personally relevant, and C) once you know how to make meaning using the patterns and basic vocabulary of a language, you can apply all those patterns that you've learned through interesting, meaningful, self -directed communication to renting an apartment and you can learn the vocabulary is much more easy to learn independently I think than other aspects of language so why not learn the patterns doing something that's personally interesting and that helps you to do the tremendous and creative and inexact task of taking yourself that exists in a certain cultural context that exists in a certain vocabulary in a certain grammatical universe. And taking that self and literally translating it to translate, I think, etymologically means to carry over. How does a person carry over their self, you know, across into a whole different context and code? I think that's bilingualism. And I think proficiency is a kind of shallow or like, it's like a stepping stone to bilingualism, but it's been interesting because as I ask other people what bilingualism means, they have a totally different understanding than me. That's so interesting. It seems like with your definition of proficiency and the transactional phrases that were taught when we're studying towards proficiency seem to all involve talking to strangers, right? And I'm thinking of the friend you described who said, "What I really need is a friend. That's how I would really learn." And thinking about her, maybe she could go out and rent an apartment, but then would go home and the only people to whom she would talk about her life, she wouldn't be doing that in the transactional language. She would be doing that in the first language in that it would be through, like you've been saying with your, with this beautiful project that, that you're starting, people learning through friendship. I just love this concept so much. I've definitely found it to play out in my life, which if I can just share my experience listeners of this podcast, we'll be able to hear me also speak Italian. I've also studied Spanish as well. And For Italian, the moment that I can point to, the practice that I can point to that moved my, I think what you would call bilingualism forward more than anything else, was a conversation partner, a weekly conversation partner. It felt something like having a pen pal. It was at the beginning of the COVID lockdown. and I was working that time with Italian wine producers who would often come over for visits. And I would love to practice my Italian with them, but with no one traveling, I made some complaints about how on social media, about how my language skills would not be able to move forward. And I was introduced through mutual friends to this wonderful woman, Terry, who is a Canadian and she's married to an Italian and speaks both languages in her family. And she was very excited to have someone to speak English with. And she also teaches English, so she was very patient about explaining grammatical concepts to me. And we would just talk about our lives and what we were cooking a lot. And my subsequent trip to Italy after having pretty regular weekly calls with this friend for, you know, at least a year, a year and a half. I was shocked at how much better I, how much more easily speaking Italian and comprehending it came to me, whether those exchanges were with friends or strangers. So yeah, so I think that I believe in your theories and I have seen them play out in my life. So you speak Spanish, you studied Spanish and French in like your undergrad college experience. Yeah, tell me a little bit about your language acquisition. Now these words are sounding cold, you're getting me to think of all of this in a new way, but what was your language, your learning experience? Yeah, absolutely. Funny you should say acquisition. There's a movement right now or that's there's this woman named Diane Larson Freeman who works in University of Michigan and she has a beautiful mind. She talks about she's been in the field of second language teaching for decades. She talks about how we ought to move away from the term second language acquisition because a language is a slippery thing that's constantly evolving. It's a complex dynamic system that never stops changing and that it's best to– her suggestion is to use the word development, second language development, because development is an ongoing, endless process that never stops. But now, oh, talk about my experience learning languages. I mean, I was lucky. I had my grandparents and their existence and their multilingualism, I think, made multilingualism feel very possible to me in a way that it doesn't necessarily feel possible or attainable to people who grew up in a monolingual house. And I'm sure I gravitated toward language because they did language in the same way that people often gravitate towards what their parents do for a living or what their family has done. But I was lucky in kindergarten. I started learning Spanish in kindergarten. I went to a small private school, K -12, and their language program promised us that if we stayed at this school and we participated in their Spanish program. By the 10th grade we would be fluent in Spanish and they delivered. I mean we started in kindergarten. I had fun, wonderful, lovely, encouraging teachers who for 45 minutes basically every school day would just talk to us and do fun stuff in Spanish. I was interested in it anyway and I think it came naturally. But what worked for me I think from that program was that for goodness, what's 10th grade plus kindergarten for 11 years, I was in a continuous program where the instructors knew exactly what page we were on in the textbook from the start of every school year. So it was a very continuous program where they little by little piece by piece helped us understand how the language worked and gave us the necessary vocabulary. But that took 10, it took 11 years, right? So it was extremely effective for me, but it took 10 years. And I think most, I think a lot of people, I might venture to say most people don't have 10 years to learn a second language. They're here and they have to know now. So I felt a bit, torn isn't the word, but I do recognize that my experience as a language learner worked and was wonderful, lovely, and enriching, but I think, I think it's not the route for everybody. So I learned Spanish that way. I learned French. I started taking French instead of a free period in high school and then I got to go to this one month French immersion summer camp when I was in about the 11th grade where they were pretty strict about it. They didn't let you call your parents except like certain times of of day, all English language materials contraband. You couldn't have an iPod if it had any English on it. And we learned quick by a week into it. I think I went into that with one semester of elementary French and by the end, I guess I was more or less bilingual, at least proficient. That's French. What else? I've studied other things. I studied Russian, I studied German, I studied Portuguese. My grandma tried to teach me German, but it ended up being me going to her house every day for a summer and her speaking at me in German and me just saying, yeah, Grossmutter, nine Grossmutter. What else? The project for right now is American Sign Language. A friend of mine is from Columbia originally, or I think he might've been born here, but he has roots in Columbia and he's been back and forth in his life. So he knows Colombian sign language, American sign language, English and Spanish. No, he's working on Russian and Russian sign language. He's unbelievable, but all that to say, he's helping me with sign language. Sign language is fascinating. Oh my God. That's so inspiring and cool that, that you've been able to follow in the footsteps of your family and have interested so many uh, modes of, of cultural expression. I'm wondering for anyone who's thinking, wow, that's amazing for you. I'm just trying to learn one language and I'm feeling very intimidated. Um, I do love though that you, you gave two examples from your own life, one, which was a very long term and one, which was really fast. And they both achieved something for you in, in terms of proficiency, your experience with the school versus the short term. Camp, I wonder if anyone is just feeling a bit discouraged, what can you share from your research to date that can encourage someone with a sense of possibility? Would you encourage people to, instead of thinking of some vague, I'll be able to speak this language like a native and then I will have arrived versus maybe a more specific goal for themselves? That's a beautiful question. And that's, that's well That's well noted that in my own experience, I've done the thing in more than one way. I think the biggest thing right now that I feel motivated to communicate to people is that there is no one way to do this. There's no one way to learn a language. In fact, that woman I was telling you about, Diane Larson Freeman, who I think has a beautiful and complex and interesting mind, has done some really interesting technical studies on people's trajectory and language learning and when you graph individual people's learning on like a line graph, visually you can see represented that each person's journey is different. Each student is focusing on what's interesting to them, what's natural for them, what's relevant for them and the way that education is structured and so many of our formal educational settings is on a Rigid one -size -fits -all timeline. So I think number one you can do this however you want and Especially for people learning English. I think this is true This is true at least for all the languages that I've studied that they're in the age of the internet There's a vast media landscape really in any language that you're interested in but English especially my goodness for better or for worse The media landscape of English is so vast you can learn about anything that interests you in English. And so I think first of all, find something interesting. My friend, I think it's okay to say this too. Her name's Reina, my friend Reina. What she emphatically tells people is like, find something fun. Find something that you actually genuinely find fun. It doesn't matter if you don't understand the thing you're watching 100%. Pick a topic you're interested in, go on YouTube and spend five minutes, even if it's just five minutes, learning about something that you know is interesting to you and seeing what you can pick up on. So I think remembering that there's no one right way to do this. There's many ways to learn the languages that are people and then some. Finding things that are fun and genuinely interesting to you as a person. Giving it time every day. You've just heard the first part of my interview with Lindsay Spear of the Culture Without Borders Language Collective. I will put links to all of Lindsay's references in the notes for the episode. Thank you so much for listening. If you're enjoying the show, please tell a friend, spread the word, tell people about the podcast. If you're a student of Italian, you can also listen to these interviews side by side, the English and Italian versions, as on language learning tool, wherever you go, and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. grow, support Motodiberia on Patreon, and unlock bonus episodes. Find out more at motodiberia .com, where you can also read the blog. Music for the podcast was composed by Ercilia Prosperi and performed by the band OU. You can purchase their recordings at oumusic .bandcamp .com. Dejándose llevar por otro, se engañándose, déjase para ese mismo. Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Language is a Door ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e9-lindsay-spzer-part-2/) [ Wine Makes Blood ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e7-michela-musolino/) ### ▷S1E7 Il Nastro Rosso: Michela Musolino, Cantante Folk Siciliana Americana URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e7-michela-musolino-2/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:29:57.000Z Michela Musolino suona il tamburo, canta e racconta storie come un'erede delle sacerdotesse siciliane dipinte sugli antichi vasi, guidando la festa con i loro ritmi. Quando era una bambina in New Jersey, Michela era così frustrata da non capire di cosa ridessero tutti gli adulti siciliani. Da allora ha fatto della comprensione della cultura, della lingua, della musica e degli strumenti della Sicilia il lavoro della sua vita. Lei ha così tante storie ricche da condividere con noi in questa bella intervista. Puoi ascoltare la musica di Michela sul suo sito web: [www.michelamusolino.com](https://www.michelamusolino.com/?ref=mododibere.com) ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/michela-musolino-drum-format-original-2.png) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)E quando iniziavo a studiare il tamburo, ho fatto una visita a casa di mio padre e ho detto "papà, tu sai io sto studiando il tamburo come suonare il tamburo siciliano" e ho detto "bella perché tu devi studiarlo, perché questa è la tradizione delle donne, questa è la tua tradizione e cosa di donne" e io non ho capito queste parole perché mio papà era molto moderno, lui non parlava mai in cose di donne e cose di uomini e lui mi ha spiegato, lui ha visto che io proprio mi confondeva queste parole e lui ha detto "no, no, senti, questa è la tradizione delle donne e le donne in Sicilia suonavano, infatti, tua nonna suonava e sua mamma suonava, sua bisnonna non suonava pure. Sono molto felice di presentare Michela Mussolino. Michela è una cantante folk siciliana americana. Lei è riconosciuto a livello internazionale per la sua musica. Ha imparato la lingua siciliana dai suoi nonni. Michela viaggia in tutto il mondo, condividendo (speaking in foreign language) Abita adesso a Memphis, Tennessee, Mikela, benvenuta. Oh, grazie. Mi piacerebbe che tu ci ripoltassi all 'inizio la tua infanzia con i tuoi nonni. Ci sono detti o parole che ricordi da quel tempo? Certo, perché tutti i miei nonni erano emigranti. Dalla c 'era un nonno, il padre di mio papà, invece di Sicil, lui è nato in Calabria, perché mio cognome è Calabrese, come il bandito famoso Giuseppe Mussolino, l 'ultimo brigante. Però questi suoni dei dialetti erano i primi suoni che ho sentito nella mia vita, questa era la lingua che ascoltavo ogni giorno, però era un modo per i miei di codificare la lingua, così noi bambini non potevamo capire niente. Per me è una grande insorge di frustrazione, appena quando potevo studiare, iniziavo a studiare la lingua negli ultimi anni con questa esplorazione della musica, con questo viaggio che sto facendo con la musica tradizionale, per me è l 'occasione di studiare questi dialetti o lingue, con quasi si parola che si vuole descrivere queste cose, ma questa è un po' della mia storia. Mi interessa la tua storia convino nella famiglia anche? Oggi mi meraviglio all 'industria del vino che è cresciuto durante gli ultimi 25 e 30 anni perché io sono abituata ad una vita in cui il vino faceva una parte della vita quotidiana. Quando ero bambina, mio nonno faceva c 'è produceva vino a casa come facevano tutti gli uomini e noi abbiamo sempre abbiamo avuto in casa sempre una bottiglia da vino ma questi erano bottiglioni grandi no e ogni uomo ha fatto faceva questo vino e ogni uomo regalava una bottiglia da vino ai tutti i parenti tutti i suoi, tutti i vicini di casa, tutti i amici. Il vino non mancava mai da noi, perché era sempre... c 'era questa abbondanza di regali, no? In nostra comunità. Era una cosa molto semplice, non è che era un vino molto... non so se si può dire colto, ma è un vino molto raffinato, infatti bevevamo questo vino da bicchieri quotidiani, da bicchieri che erano contenitori per marmellata prima. Era una vita semplice, il vino per noi era una cosa naturale, era anche una medicina per noi, quando si male e si doveva bere un po' di vino e vedere come oggi ci sono tanti vini particolari, vini raffinati di ogni tipo, la precisione con cui si producono questa vina adesso, per me è allucinante, è proprio una meraviglia per me di vedere come l 'industria e del vino. Il nonno a cresce Juva, no? Sì, mio nonno, il padre di mio papà, lui aveva una pergola indietro della casa, questa era una pergola di vitti, c 'era l 'Uva, c 'era l 'Uva, ogni domenica a pomeriggio c 'eravamo tutti noi perché noi ci raggiugiovamo insieme come una famiglia e quando faceva bel tempo c 'erano noi sotto questa pergola e mi ricordo questi pomeriggio c 'erano tutti, tutti i miei cugini, tutti i zi, c 'erano tutti e mi ricordo anche come bruciavano il sole, mi ricordo di sentire il sole sulle spalle, il sole che era filtrato tra i viti. Erano giorni bellissimi, mi erano giorni che per me io pensavo che questi giorni non finirebbero mai, perché ero proprio piccolissima, era fanciula. erano momenti proprio bellissimi sotto questa pergola di viti. Dimmi un po' della diversa di lingua e dialetto e nel contesto di siciliano. In Sicilia c 'è questa idea che o con quelli che studiano queste c 'è l 'idea che il siciliano non è semplicemente un dialetto, ma è una lingua, perché c 'è una grande tradizione della letteratura. In Sicilia abbiamo avuto il Re Federico II, nel corteggio suo c 'era la scuola siciliana, una scuola di poesia, e infatti il sonnetto è nato in questo ambiente. Il sonnetto è una cosa siciliana. Infatti, questo è una cosa molto interessanti. La forma del sonnetto somiglie molto la forma delle strofe delle canzoni tradizionali. Anche le canzoni che cantiamo oggi, la misura, le misure e la struttura è quasi più o meno un sonnetto e con questa tradizione della lettoretore c 'è anche una grande tradizione della poesia e il siciliano era proprio una lingua dell 'academia e si dicono che quando Dante scrisse la divine comedia e lui ha dovuto decidere o scrivere nel volgare, nel dialetto fiorentino, o scrivere nella lingua dell 'academia siciliano. E lui ha deciso di scrivere in fiorentino e così ha cambiato il viaggio della lingua, o cosiddetto, di dialetto siciliano. Ah, era una grande decisione per il mondo, no? Mi piace moltissimo la poesia, infatti ho studiato questo della università. C 'è una parte del poema che ricordi della tua esperienza di imparare italiano? Quando andavo all 'università io studiavo le lingue, ho studiato l 'italiano e i francese, in quel periodo mia nonna mi ha detto vieni a casa mia e ti aiuto a imparare l 'italiano. Per più di quattro anni, anche quando dopo ho preso la laurea tornavo ancora, ogni venerdì pomeriggio tornavo alla casa di mia nonna e noi passevamo il pomeriggio insieme nella cucina sua e lei mi ha raccontato tutte le cose che lei ha imparato quando lei era ragazza a Palermo. E lei ricordava tanto della poesia che lei ha imparato e lei mi ha imparato una bella poesia delle rondinelle che sono uno rondinella e il mio uccello preferito. La poesia è così dolce, rondinella, pelegrina, che ti posso sul Verona, che vuoi dirmi rondinella in tuo plebile canzone, è una cosa che mi ricordo da sempre, e non è semplicemente questa, questi belli immagini della rondinella, che è praticamente il lucello della Sicilia, no? Si trova ovunque in Sicilia, ma anche mi fa, mi dà be' i ricordi di mia nonna. Che bello. Rondinella è anche il nome in un uva in Valpolicella. Capisco che è perché la forma della uva sembra la rondinella. Non sapevo questo del nome di uva. Ah, non sapevo. Un 'altra ragione di amare la rondinella no? Michela ha molti bei dischi. L 'ultimo si chiama la notti triunfante, questo è il tuo album di Natale, giusto? Sono le tradizioni natalizie. Mi piacerebbe rispondere una canzone ora da quel disco chi è matto su da un pedi e poi mi piacerebbe che tu ci parli delle parole specifiche della canzone nel contesto della lingua Pei asce a mio affino e susi pastori, non dormi ricchio Lo vedi che è nato bambino Gesù Il fasciare è all 'uso, signori, e su si pastur, non dormi richiù, lo vedi che è nato bambino Gesù. Io sape fa la casa, fa la casa per lo signori senza pace ma con l 'amore E su si pastori, non dormi ricchio non vedi che nato bambino Gesù E su si pastori, non Mi ricchio, lo vedi che nato p 'ammino già e so E' una canzone così bella, grazie mille per averla condivisa con noi. Parliamo della lingua, della zutta, un pedi canzone. Questa è una canzone tradizionale siciliana, parla della storia del momento quando è nato bambino Gesù, ma parla in un modo in cui i santi, Dio, Gesù e tutti i santi, ci sono strofe che parlano di San Giuseppe, di una donna che è la Madonna, parla di questi santi in un modo molto umano, loro non sono a parse di noi. Loro non sono lontano di noi, lontani di noi. Loro sono come noi, sono umani come noi. E questo è un modo di creare una consapevolezza di questi distanti, infatti. Ogni strofa della canzone parla di un altro tipo di albero e l 'attività succede sotto questo tipo di alba. Per esempio, la prima strofa parla del "sotto un pedi di inucide", vuole dire "sotto l 'albero di nocciola". Secondo strofa "sotto un pedi di lumia", "sotto l 'abbro di limone". E l 'ultima strofa è la mia strofa preferita, perché parla di che succede sotto l 'abbro di cirase, ciliegie. Sotto quell 'albero, San Giuseppe costruisce costruisce ma lui non costruisce questa casa da Mattone e Cimendo lui costruisce con l 'amore, lui utilizza l 'amore per fare questa casa. Grazie per spiegare questo. Mi piacerebbe parlare dei strumenti musicali in Sicilia? Sono molto Il primo, o quello che è più fondamentale, devo ammetere è il tamburo, perché il tamburo è il strumento più antico ovunque al mondo, il percussione, il primo suono perché è il suono del battere e il cuore. Questo strumento è molto femminile perché vieni da noi dalla tradizione delle donne, le donne che erano sacerdotesse in tutti i riti della fecondità, non tutti i riti per il di un isio o bacco. Per gli secoli queste tradizioni sono diventate, invece di essere tradizioni sacre, sono diventate cose profane, però anche nei tempi recentemente moderni si può dire che le donne erano quelle che suonavano e loro dirigevano, si può dire le feste con questo ritmo del tamburo. Il tamburo è di una misura diverso, devo dire 34 cm o più o meno, la testa è di pelle e di capra, il cerchietto è di legno e non è tanto pesante. Il cerchio per un tamburello siciliano deve essere molto leggero perché il ritmo è un ritmo molto leggero, il ritmo siciliano della tarantella siciliana è molto leggero e ci sono sonagli di metallo attorno a questo cerchio e Ogni regione, ogni parte del meridione, del sud italiano, ha un ritmo particolare che è identificata con le tradizioni musicale. Non è che l 'unica suona che si sente, perché i musicisti sempre prendono un altro ritmo dall 'altra zona, però il suono principale, questi ritmi sono i ritmi principali o più usate in queste tradizioni. Sicilio ha proprio un ritmo molto particolare secondo le variazioni della Tarantella. Iniziamo sempre con il tamburo. Ho visto una foto con la medusa? È un tamburo che è costruito proprio per me, è una cosa fatta da un musicista e un tamburlista, bravissimo, si chiama Siciliano ovviamente, lui si chiama Carmelo Traino. Lui mi ha visto suonando nei video, lui mi ha contattato e detto "Michela io costruisco tamburi e io devo fare uno per te. E insieme che abbiamo deciso le misure c 'è tra i colori, lui mi ha detto "ma io devo decorare questo, devo dipingere questo che voi" e ho detto "ma adoro la Ficurinia" e lui mi ha fatto bellissime immagini di Ficurinia attorno a questo cerchietto. E ho visto, lui ha un altro tamburo con questa immagine della Medusa. Adoravo questa immagine, lui mi ha dipinto questo e anche dorrato, c 'è un po' di oro. La testa di Medusa è spesso identificata specialmente con la bandiera della Trinacria. Ogni di intanto la testa e la testa di Medusa, spesso è la testa di Cerre, l 'idea della raccolta, però quando non c 'è la Cerre loro si mettono a Medusa. E anche Medusa si trova la testa su Scudero, che è un tipo di uno che si usava nei tempi antichi, questi tipi di Scuderi. E da quando ero bambina era molto affascinata della midusa, era proprio una storia che si può dire mozzo fiato con l 'idea di una donna con serpenti invece dei capelli ma che è un uomo che può diventare un pezzo di sasso wow si la tua nonna anche ha suonato tamburo, no? Sì, mia nonna, la mamma di mio padre, lei suonava il tamburo e quando lei è emigrata qua, quando lei era una signorina, lei portava un tamborella siciliano, quando lei, dopo anni, quando lei si è sposato con mio nonno, mio nonno suonava la concertina e mia nonna suonava il tamborello e loro facevano musica in casa e la storia come io finalmente questo tamburo è diventato il mio, una zia ha mantenuto questo tamburo e quando iniziavo a studiare il tamburo ho fatto una visita a casa di mio padre e ho detto "papà, tu sai io sto studiando il tamburo come suonare il tamburo siciliano" e ho detto "bella perché tu devi studiarlo perché questa è la tradizione delle donne, questa è la tua tradizione e cose di donne e io non ho capito queste parole perché mio papà era molto moderno, lui non parlava mai in cose di donne, cose di uomini, e lui mi è spiegato, lui ha visto che io proprio mi confondeva queste parole, e lui ha detto "no, no, senti, questa è la tradizione delle donne e le donne in Sicilia suonavano, infatti tu e nonna suonava, e sua mamma suonava, e sua bisnonna suonava oppure, e infatti lui è andato a mia zia per chiedere in questo tamborello quando lui capiva che io sono per un suo palco e mia zia ha detto a lui che lei non era pronta ancora a regalare il tambore a me e lui non ha capito questo infatti lui pensava che lei detto che era perso il tambore era proprio uno sbaglio tra loro e anni sono passati no e dopo non so quanti anni è morto mio padre, due anni dopo mio padre è morto, ero ad una festa per una cuginetta e mia zia mi ha chiamata, mi ha detto "vieni a me, sediti a canto a me, devo dirti una cosa" e ricordati mio padre è già morto in queste storie due anni e mia zia mi ha detto "miccela" grazie ma grazie a Dio lui era una vantenne, lui aveva una vita piena, è bellissimo. Mi ha detto "stavo parlando con tuo padre, lui mi veniva a parlare" e lui mi ha dato un messaggio e lui mi ha detto "è tempo di regalarti questo tamburello". Noi, per noi siciliani, parlare con i nostri morti è una cosa quotidiana, è una cosa normale, non è una cosa strana, non è una cosa, come si dice, male, non è una cosa spaventosa, è normale. Natural, sì. Di parlare con questi animessanti, infatti ho scritto una canzone di questa. Sono andata alla casa di mia e mi ha regalato questo tamburo, è allucinante perché lei è morta un anno dopo, lei capiva che lei non aveva tanto tema e lei non era vecchia, lei era molto molto più giovane di mio padre, lei non era vecchia, ma lei capiva e lei ha ricevuto questo messaggio e ha detto "ehi, è il tempo di condividere questo" e Questa era il tamburo di rosa, rosa drum. Per questo quando iniziavo a creare eventi per mantenere i tradizioni eccetera, per condividere i tradizioni ho dato i nomi di rosa drum, i nomi in onore di mia nonna e queste tradizioni che noi condividiamo tra una generazione unita da un 'altra, una Ok, è bello un racconto, grazie per parlare di queste cose con me. Parliamo di più degli altri strumenti, è importante per me non dimenticare il bagpipe, perché mio padre suona la con la musa del Scotsia. La zampogna e anche un bello strumento che è molto identificato con la tradizione della musica siciliana. Particolarmente la musica natalizia viene da noi dalla tradizione dei pastori, perché i pastori erano quelli che avevano i materiali, la pelle di è il legno e loro anche erano quelli che facevano musica perché loro passavano ore, ore, ore, dove loro non potevano fare niente che guardare, non è che loro potevano occuparsi con attività, ma musica si poteva fare. Questo strumento è molto diverso anche della corna musa dell 'Italia Nord, ha un suono molto diverso perché ci sono le tradizioni proprio della parte dell 'Italia Nord e la corna musa è molto identificato con quelle tradizioni, ma il suono è diverso e il suono di una zampogna siciliana nelle mani di un zampugnaro bravo, è proprio una cosa dolce, è molto diverso del suono delle cose scozzesia, ma è un suono molto molto dolce. E come ti ho detto è molto identificato anche con le tradizioni, le novena per Natale, quando la tradizione che i pastori scendono dalle montagne e arrivano in città per suonare, per fare queste nuove, e questa è una tradizione che viene da noi dall 'antichità, dall 'epoca dell 'estrena, quando si festeggiava, per esempio nei tempi antichi nell 'Imperio Romano, si suonava dall 'inizio di dicembre fino all 'inizio di gennaio, che oggi siamo ammoni dati del 6, feste di San Nicola, o otto, anche otto, con la feste della Madonna di dicembre, fino alla l 'epifania, al 6 gennaio. Ma nei tempi di antichità era la feste della Strenia e era coinvolto in questa festa la musica che era itinerante, quest 'idea di regalare, di dare regale a gli altri. Da questa noi abbiamo la tradizione della strena, la strina, oggi che è questa idea, arrivano i musicisti, loro vanno in viaggio nel paese e loro si fermano davanti una casa, loro chiedono benedizione a tutti che abitano nella casa, e per ricevere queste benedizioni si deve ospitare i musicisti, si deve dare a mangiare e si deve dare il vino a bere. Se si fa bene con questi musicisti, se si trattano bene i musicisti si ricevono queste benedizioni e i musicisti vanno alla prossima casa per suonare, per chiamare fuori questi benedizioni eccetera. E questa è una festa che continua notte, notte dopo notte per quasi un mese e mezza. Abbiamo un modo è molto importante, è necessario, non è possibile di non pagare. Mi chiedo se c 'è un racconto come questo della ragione di esistire, di fare questo modo di dire in inglese. Non mi stupisci se un di tradizione esiste in un 'altra tradizione se sia un 'altra tradizione perché l 'idea della musica essere coinvolta con le benedizioni è una cosa molto antica, è un modo di parlare con Dio è un modo di comunicare con con gli spiriti è un modo di comunicare all 'altro mondo e se queste tradizioni sono uguali in altri paesi certamente ha senso perché è una cosa organica una cosa dentro di noi mi hai imperato una parola nuova della fila? Il filo condutore. Sì, filo condutore. O anche si dice il nastro rosso. Quella è una cosa che è una continuazione senza fermarsi. È proprio una tema, un 'idea che esiste in ogni generazione, in ogni cultura. È una cosa che si unisce unisce isce pure che è bella quando le tradizioni si uniscono e bellissimo quando unisci uniscono le persone e proprio bellissima e la verità Se ti piace modo di bere italiano, per favore, metti in pausa il programma per un minuto, vai su Apple Podcast, assegniarci cinque stelle e scrivi una recensione. Aiuta davvero la persona a scoprire il programma. Grazie. Ci sono altri strumenti? Certo, c 'è il flauto siciliano, ha fatto di canna, si chiama il fiscaletto, è anche uno strumento molto antico, infatti ci sono favole che parla di questi strumenti, e questi strumento origino ai tempi antichi, non era fatto di questa erba, non è fatto di canna, è fatto delle osse degli uccelli. Infatti il suono di questo flauto, di nuovo devo dire, quando è costruito bene da un artista e quando è suonato bene da uno che proprio sta a suonare, il suono è uguale degli uccelli, negli E c 'è una tradizione, c 'è un favolo che parla della magia di questi flauti come in antebiattichi. La favola parla o di un flauto fatto delle osse o un flauto fatto del cane e la storia si chiama "Le osse che canta". è una storia di un re che voleva dare metà del regno al figlio, che trovava una piuma di un uccello particolare, un uccello mitologico. C 'è una piccola principessa e il principe, la principessa è più piccola, lei trova il piume e il principe dice deve essere quello che vinco, che vince, e lui egide la sorellina e lui buttavia il corpo nelle palude. E lui vince metà del regno, e un giorno arriva un pastore, o lui trova un osso e crea un flauto, o lui trova un pezzo di cana e lui crea un flauto, e quando lui suona questo flauto, un flauto canta, o un flauto del osso, o un flauto del canta e dice "io sono la fia del re, ho trovato, ho vinto, ho trovato il piume, però mio fratello mi ha ucciso, ma devi dire a mio padre e lui va al re e lui spiega e alla fine arriva la giustizia, la storia non è che si può fatturnare la piccola però il grande è ricevo punizione, lui è punito e c 'è questa idea, come ti ho detto, la storia si chiama "Le osse che canta" e è una storia, io ho imparato questa favela come una favela siciliana però esiste o scoperto che esiste in ogni parte del meridione, una variazione di questa storia esiste ovunque si suono a questi tipi di flautti ecc. Infatti mi ricordo di una canzone americana, si chiama "The dreadful wind and rain", "Viento e piove male" e molto similare. Ti devo devo ascoltare questa canzone. - Sì. - Adesso mi sono in curiosità. Dimite il tuo lavoro nuovo, nuovo in Memphis e con la musica tua adesso? Io sto esaminando più e più la connessione tra la Sicilia e l 'America, riguardo la musica. Gli emigranti con tutti, con tanti tradizioni, c 'erano la musica che loro facevano alle barbieri, che è una tradizione antica, c 'erano l 'idea di fare la musica nei campi, mentre si lavorava. C 'era pure processione della musica, musica per il funeral, eccetera. E io vuole capire e vuoi fare vedere musicalmente che succedeva quando gli migranti sono arrivati in America e come questi tradizioni siciliani sono diventate musica americana, infatti se noi parliamo della musica americana si può parlare di ogni tipo, ogni genero, jazz, blues, rock 'n 'roll, rockabilly, pop music c 'erano sempre all 'inizio c 'erano sempre i siciliani che hanno messo le mani e hanno dato un sapore o hanno creato una direzione nuova in questi generi e io vorrei mostrare questa connessione esporando la musica americana ma sempre lasciando sapori siciliani o sempre creando legamis che sempre creando un modo di attaccamento di connessi, un modo di connettere questi due tradizioni. Che bello, non vero l 'ora di ascoltare questo lavoro. Vediamo, potremmo fare una cosa insieme per dobbiamo fare una collaborazione per andare avanti con questo progetto, come noi. Celtamente. Parliamo un più della diversa grammatica siciliana e italiano. Prima, dobbiamo mettere che ci sono parole che abbiamo in siciliano, che non sono necessariamente variazioni di una parola italiana. Ci sono parole che sono proprio diverse. Per esempio, "bambino" in italiano, nel dialetto di mia nonna, la parola è "devu", "adevu". Invece, il bambino "adevu", "adevu", non so perché, "adevu", "guardare", "talliare", "talliare". Però, ci sono anche cose diverse quando parliamo dei verbi, né, nel tempo dei verbi. Per esempio, in Sicilia non esiste, in dialetto o nella lingua attuale di Siciliano, non esiste il futuro. Non so perché. Si dicono che è un modo, è un tipo di fatalismo siciliano, non so. Un modo di dire che la vita è così e non c 'è il futuro. o ci sono altri che dicono che questa è una riflessione quant 'era difficile la vita a volta, perché non c 'era speranza, non c 'era futuro. Ma anche con il passato, non c 'è il passato semplice, c 'è solamente passato remoto. Uso sempre un esempio che mi fa sorridere, mi fa un grande piacere sempre quando si arriva ad una casa di una vecchia donna in Sicilia. La prima cosa è lei chiede se tu hai mangiato, ma lei non dice "hai mangiato", lei dice "mangiasti", vuole dire "hai mangiato nei tempi antichi", no? E quando ero ragazza, scherzavo con le amiche, con le cugine, perché dicevamo "sì abbiamo mangiato, duecenta anni fa, quando era l 'ultimo volta che hai mangiato, trecenta anni fa, però quest 'idea che il passato per un siciano è visti, non si dice visti, non si dice "ti ho visto", "fecci", non dico "ho fatto", "io fecci", "fecci", parliamo nel passato remoto incredibile e ci sono certi verbi che sono diversi di un verbo in italiano. Per esempio, i verbi per mangiare in dialetto, quando si dice "moglia" è riflessivo, mangiare non è riflessivo in italiano. Questi sono sempre i ragioni per considerare che il siciliano è molto diverso dell 'italiano, o è un 'altra lingua. È l 'importanza di preservare queste tradizioni, lavori molto di queste cose, di insegnare, perché? Perché per me sono cose fondamentali, per me le tradizioni sono la fondazione, la base per tutti. Anche ho questa idea e avevo sempre questa idea. Anche se è una cosa che non è piacevole, che non piace, è un punto da lanciarsi, è un punto per almeno un punto di riferimento, così se tu capisci che nel passato c 'era una cosa che proprio non era bravo, non era buono, si può cambiarlo e si può capire ma perché? E secondo me un popolo che conosce le tradizioni è un popolo molto forte, anche se non si mantengono queste tradizioni di capire è molto importante, di capire da dove siamo venuti, perché così capiamo perché facciamo le cose che facciamo, così capiamo chi siamo. E anche vedo oggi due cose, vedo che studiando tradizioni e condividendo tradizioni è un modo di unire la gente, anche se loro vengono da tradizione che non sono questi, loro non sono italiani, loro non sono di questo patrimonio. Però loro vedono un po' di loro in queste tradizioni. Ah sì, noi facevamo così, è molto simile. Noi facciamo così, era molto diverso, ma adesso capiamo perché. Noi non abbiamo fatto così, abbiamo fatto in questa maniera, ma per fare la stessa cosa. È un modo di unirci e è semplicemente di spiegare, ma nella spiegazione si può unire. L 'altra cosa che mi copisce e io vedo una reemergenza di promuovere tradizioni sono felici, oltre felici, però vi vedo anche che ci sono persone che stanno creando tradizione, stanno rifacendo, dicono "ma no, la tradizione non è così", per loro è così, però loro stanno creando un tipo di commercio adesso di questo e mi meraviglio perché queste non sono per me, non capisco, queste sono cose che si deve pagare per partecipare in queste tradizioni, quando queste sono cose che per noi era la vita, erano come respirare l 'aria, questa era proprio una cosa strana che era un segreto, non era segreto, era la nostra vita e vedo questo contrasto e non so come rispondere ancora di questo, sono contenta che le tradizioni vanno avanti e sono condivisi, ma dalla stessa volta non è commercio, non si deve pagare per fare una tradizione, Ma come? Si deve pagare per partecipare ad un rito, no? No, come? Michele, grazie mille per aver parlato con me, per tutta la tua devozione a queste meravigliose tradizioni. Possiamo parlare dove si possono comprare la musica tua. Ok, si Può venire al mio sito, Michaelamusolino .com Il mio nome, Michaela, M -I -C -H -L -A -M -U -S -O -L -I -N -O .com Michaelamusolino .com L 'anno si può trovare i miei dischi, ci sono anche, si può comprare dischi come download, loro vengono con le canzone, o un link alle canzone, o un libretto dei testi, delle storie delle canzone. E si può anche vedere dove vado a fare uno spettacolo nei prossimi giorni, nei prossimi settimani, i prossimi mesi. Quest 'anno vado nel Canada per cantare per i siciliani a Toronto, sono oltre felice di andare, perché c 'è una grande comunità di siciliani nel Canada. Vediamo, non so se tornerò in Sicilia di quest 'estate, dipende dal prezzo dei biglietti, vediamo, però prima o dopo canterò di nuovo in Sicilia, quest 'anno sarò nel California, Louisiana, sono appena tornato da Florida e vediamo. Viaggi molto, metterò tutte le informazioni per i tuoi progetti anche nelle notte dell 'episodio. Grazie mille per parlare con me, con un bel pomeriggio per me di parlare di più con te. Per imparare molto di Sicilia, la musica della umanità, ovunque tu vada e qualunque cosa tu beva, ricorda di coltarti la vita e di non smettere mai di imparare. Dejándose llevar Un otro Se engañando Se déjase para ese mismo La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto, registrato, e montato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Steve Silverstein ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S1E7 Wine Makes Blood: Sicilian-American Folksinger Michela Musolino URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e7-michela-musolino/ Last updated: 2026-08-26T03:14:32.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e7-michela-musolino-2/) As a drummer, storyteller, singer and culture-keeper, Michela Musolino is heir to *sacerdotesse,* the Sicilian priestesses depicted on ancient vessels leading the party with their jingle-bedazzled drums. As a Sicilian-American child in New Jersey, Michela couldn't stand not understanding what all the grown-ups were laughing about. She made the study of Sicilian language and culture her life's work even before she started to sing. Michela shares her deep experience with Sicilian folk instruments, Italian poetry, the history of wine as medicine, and a sweet vision of every pre-commercialization Italian farmer who made—and still makes—wine for "family consumption." Download Michela's records and check out her tour schedule at her site: [www.michelamusolino.com](https://www.michelamusolino.com/?ref=mododibere.com) [Gutturnio](https://www.wine-searcher.com/regions-gutturnio?ref=mododibere.com) was recognized as a separate wine denomination (DOC) in Emilia Romagna in 2010\. Michela reports they drink wine out of a bowl. Another Sicilian band that Michela has worked with, [I Beddi](https://italychronicles.com/i-beddi-folk-music-from-sicily/?ref=mododibere.com) Here is [an interesting paper](https://iris.unipa.it/handle/10447/332152?ref=mododibere.com) about the high proportion of women included in Alberto Favara's "Corpus Favara," the ethnomusicological document of 1,090 Sicilian folk songs that Favara documented at the turn of the 20th century. Theme music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ "What I Need is a Friend" ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e8-lindsay-szper-part-1/) [ Spit Like a Wine Pro ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e6-vinitaly-italian-wine-fair-tips/) ### ▷S1E6 Sopravvivere Vinitaly: la sputacchiera è la tua URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e6-vinitaly/ Last updated: 2026-08-21T05:07:32.000Z Stanca ma contenta, Rose Thomas condivide ciò che ha imparato dal suo visito a Vinitaly fiera. Stava registrando questo episodio da Verona con voce—e italiano—un po' stanchi, essendosi ben abituata al servizio di piccole avventure! Detti milanesi e romani e alcuni proverbi italiani guidano i consigli su come vivere Vinitaly e le altre fiere del vino. Scoperte della Micro Mega area: [Nascetta](http://www.piemonteonwine.it/SchedaVitigno.jsp?idVitigno=14&ref=mododibere.com) [Tazzalenghe](https://www.quattrocalici.it/vitigni/tazzelenghe/?ref=mododibere.com) Bell’azienda di Pantelleria, [Vinisola](https://www.vinisola.it/?ref=mododibere.com) Iscriviti alla newsletter! ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/rose-thomas-in-verona-format-original-7.jpg) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)Benvenuti a Modo di Bere, podcast su pevanti locali e detti locali. Sono la condutrice Rose Thomas Benster. Oggi abbiamo un episodio speciale di modo di bere, torniamo con altra intervista prossima settimana, ma oggi sono qui in Verona per la fiera VinItaly, un grandissimo fiera di vino italiano e possibile puoi ascoltare nella voce mia che era una settimana di molto parare, di molto assaggiare, di molto amicizia, una settimana brava per me. E allora grazie ascoltatori italiani per la pazienza con il mio italiano. In questo episodio ho un consiglio per coperte la fiera, per imparare meglio, per essere qui in Verona in una settimana molto occupata. Primo consiglio è taxi. Ho imparato questa settimana, che è molto difficile di prendere un taxi. Sto in un albergo non molto centrale e avevo pensato che è possibile di chiamare un taxi. No, ho scoperto che il modo di viaggiare alla fiera era di camminare al centro a Piazza Bra per un autobus naveta per mi portare alla fiera. Ho imparato che ci sono questi taxi stand per prendere un taxi ma non è possibile come a casa mia in New York City di salutare o di chiamare. Generalmente è possibile di chiamare, ma questa settimana tanto occupa la tante piena e soltanto possibile in taxi stand. Allora, consiglio è se non stai in un albergro molto centrale e importante di lasciare molto tempo di aspettare per un autobus perché a lato della navetta, particolare alla fiera, anche autobus o scoperta sono in ritardo. Una frase in italiano che mi aiuta durante questo processo di imparare questa cosa è una gata frettolosa fa i gattini, c 'è chi capito, adesso che questa frase significa che di fare una cosa troppo veloce non va bene, no? Ma per me è un ricord di non essere stressata, perché al fine non aiuta. Allora una cosa che era un po' difficile di imparare quando ho iniziato mia vita in vino, come sputtare, come utilizzare la sputtacchiera. E un cosa semplice forse, ma era difficile per me di imparare perché all 'inizio mi sentava strano di non bere il vino perché è vino molto buono. Era importante per me di imparare che oggettivo del degustazione e di assaggiare allora non è una cosa persa di utilizzare la sputtacchiera e altra cosa difficile di imparare per me era in un posto con molte gente. È difficile, qualche volta, di accessare la sputacchiera. È necessario di essere molto forte. È importante di imparare. Ho imparato una frase, Milana, grande spingi e un saluto e anche un consiglio di "vai, vai, vai, spingi, grante, spingi". Allora, "grande, spingi", la sputtacchiera è tua, spingi. Altro consiglio che una persona mi ha dato, prima della mia volta prima qui alla fiera, è di fare appuntamenti perché, I vini che vuoi davvero odia assaggiare, è importante di fare un appuntamento con il Viniteli app, una settimana, forse, prima della fiera, per essere sicura che è possibile di incontrare. Non è possibile di assaggiare tutto, c 'è troppo diversità dei vini in Italia, per me non è troppo, è una cosa molto bella e perché sono qui facendo questo lavoro, ma la fiera è importante di scegliere un oggettivo specifico e anche lasciar tempo di camminare, di scoprire una cosa nuova. Per me è un bel posto di essere questo, l 'aria micro mega wines, un nuovo posto con produttore piccoli, viticoltura biologica e con uverare come nascetta, come tazza lenge. Ho scoperto un produttore nuovo di me un 'isola di Pantaderia, molto buono vino di Zippipo, ho assaggiato nel passato in maggior parte di Zippipo di Sicilia e questo produttore in Pantaderia a loro fanno vini secco, vini spumante, anche passito molto bravo. Allora una frase che ho imparato quando vuoi fare tutto ma non è possibile e è una divertente frase quando una persona vuole volte piena e molie ubriaca non è possibile di parlare di cosa dell 'alcaldo allora è importante di trovare equilibrio in vino e anche in una fiera di vino. È importante prendere tempo di restare, di mangiare e di bere l 'acqua. In questo podcast abbiamo condividato molte frase di non bere l 'acqua, ma ovviamente è un gioco, è un gioco con una senso di importante di cotterci la vita, ma davvero è importante un affiero divino di bere l 'acqua, di portare nella valigia scarpe comode. O una frase che mi ha un amico di Roma, c 'ho le scarpe piene di piedi e è importante di avere scarpe comode per questa fiera. Parlando della valigia ho scoperto che è importante di avere una valigia con versatilità per pomeriggio caldo, ma forse un po' di pioggia e la mattina fredda, la notte fredda, la possibilità di andare a una festa e è importante di prendere un ombrella. Ho portato un ombrella nella valigia da Stati Uniti in il giorno quando al fine è piaggiato, non c 'è, ho dimenticato l 'ombra, ma fa bene, più ho vissuto un 'altra frase che mi piace molto in Italia. Grazie mille per ascoltare questo podcast, torniamo settimana prossima con un 'intervista, un episodio più normale, ma se ti piace questo episodio se hai un bevante locale o un detto locale che vuoi condividere con me, per gli ascoltatori qui, per favore, enviammi un messaggio nel mio sito web www .mododibere .com o enviammi un messaggio in Instagram è a modo di bere e grazie mille per ascoltare, per essere qui con me ovunque tu vada e qualunque cosa tu beva ricorda di goderti la vita e di non smettere mai di imparare. Puoi seguire modo di bere su TikTok, Instagram e YouTube. Se ami il progetto puoi diventare sostenitore del programma su Patreon e accelere a più contenuti esclusivi ed educativi. Le informazioni su www .mododibere .com La musica è stata composta da Ercilia Prosperi per il gruppo O1\. Puoi ascoltarli su www .o1music (upbeat music) La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto, registrato, e montato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Steve Silverstein ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S1E6 Taste Wine Like a Professional: Embrace the Spittoon URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e6-vinitaly-italian-wine-fair-tips/ Last updated: 2026-08-26T03:16:24.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e6-vinitaly/) A happily exhausted Rose Thomas, still in Verona for the Vinitaly fair, records an episode of wine fair wisdom, including: Verona taxi tips, how to spit, how to pack for an Italian wine fair, how to find balance, and how to joyfully accept that there's no "winning" Italian wine knowledge--the diversity of Italy is too vast. And that's the fun: you might as well just jump into the river. Phrases from today's episode: "*Una gatta frettolosa fa i gattini ciechi*" Far more colorful than the English equivalent, "haste makes waste" *sputacchiera* \= spittoon "*Grande, spingi*": Milanese for "Go go, great one!" A person who wants "*la botte piena e la moglie ubriaca*" wants to have their cake and eat it too (not possible). (Also, Rose Thomas mispronounces *botte* in the episode: it should be "botte" not "bota.") *equilibrio* \= balance "*Piove sul bagnato*": it rains on the wet. The two main piazzas in Verona are Piazza delle Erbe and Piazza Bra, the second has the taxi stand. Some grape and wine discoveries from Vinitaly's Micro Mega area: [Nascetta](http://www.piemonteonwine.it/SchedaVitigno.jsp?idVitigno=14&ref=mododibere.com) [Tazzalenghe](https://www.quattrocalici.it/vitigni/tazzelenghe/?ref=mododibere.com) Cool producer from Pantelleria, [Vinisola](https://www.vinisola.it/?ref=mododibere.com) **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. Today I have edition of Modo di Bere for you. It's a little bit shorter, but a lot of fun. We'll be back next week with another interview, another great interview. And this week I'm recording from Verona in northern Italy, the land of Valpolicella, the land of Suave, the land of Prosecco. And I'm in Verona because every spring there is a gigantic, enormous, wonderful Italian wine fair for a few days at the end of March beginning of April and I have some tips for you today what I learned at Benitoly, how to enjoy this wine fair in particular, but also how to enjoy other wine fairs that you may get the chance to attend. So let's get right into it. I've got a local saying from Italy for you, that helped me get through the experience of getting taxis in Verona during Vinitali Week. And that phrase is "Una Gatta Fretolosa Fa 'i Gattini Chechi." That means a stressed cat gives birth to blind kittens. Now, I think that the true equivalent of this phrase in English would be Haste makes waste. Like, don't rush. You'll get a bad result. You'll make bad work. But I actually choose to interpret it a little bit differently for myself. I think I misunderstood it maybe the first time I heard it and just made it apply to something more that I've observed in Italian culture, which is, you know, just like, don't get too stressed out. It's not going to help. I think that helps when I'm traveling and why am I bringing up this phrase with getting taxis in Verona? So a lot of times when I'm doing wine visits in Italy or other places, I've got to rent a car because it's hard to make vineyard visits without that, but here in Verona, I just thought, well, I'll get some taxis and I'm staying a little, I've been staying a little bit outside of the city center. So First day, I'm calling a cab taxi company. No answer. I'm using a ride -hailing app No cabs are available So basically what I learned is the way that you get a cab in Verona during Venetali week when they're all busy is there are certain taxi stands in You know prominent areas the ones I know about are in Piazza Bra. There's two main beautiful piazzas in this amazing ancient city. One is Piazza Erbe, where a lot of people gather. It's very beautiful for a little aperitivo after Vinitili. And then the other one is Piazza Bra. Same thing. Also, people are getting a drink. It's a little bit bigger. There's a historic arena there, and there is So a taxi stand, and they wear people to stand in line and the taxis come by and you get in the taxi, but I guess you're not supposed to hail the cabs when you see them on the street, like I'm used to in New York City, you stand in line at the taxi stand. They have a taxi stand at the fairgrounds as well, but if you can plan your stay so that you can take advantage of the buses, that can be really good. Now, however, there's more than one kind of bus. There are the Navetta, which is the bus that takes you to the fairground and shuttles you between the fairground and Piazza Bra, at least that's what the Navetta does during the fair. I don't know about other times. I've only been to Verona during Vignitoli season, but the regular buses I found, I thought I was going to be okay because I stayed on a bus line and that can be a good way to do it. But this bus also just was behind schedule and not coming. I only caught it once. It felt like an absolute miracle. I asked the taxi driver, I'm sorry, the bus driver to tell me when the stop was to get out of the fare. I think I was a little overconfident in my Italian. At that moment, he didn't tell me or I didn't understand when he tried to tell me. Ended up at the end of the line And I said, "Oh gosh, did I miss the fairground?" And he said, "Yes, but we'll leave again in 10 minutes and then I'll take you there." He was having a little coffee, a little cigarette, a little bathroom break. Anyway, I looked so sad. He'd just asked me to join him. He bought me a coffee. He was from Sicily. He taught me how to say, "Let's go on Diamo in Sicilian." I think it was a special bus driver version, let's go, we're late. And then, you know, I got back on the bus and I made it to my destination. But what I would say is just plan ahead if you're gonna stay outside with not within walking distance of those shuttle buses, which is your best bet for transport to and from the fare, then I would make sure you stay on a bus line but leave plenty of extra time for the buses to pick you up and don't count on being able to call on a cab to get there. You can stand in a taxi line once you're in the city center or at the fairgrounds to take you back to your place that you're staying but to get there you got to be on a bus line or just walk. Stay within walking distance of the city center of Piazza Bra pick up the shuttle bus. So that was my most important thing that I learned for attending this wine fair. Yeah, vinitilli, I maybe should have said at the beginning, but vinitilli, they have a couple of days where you can just attend as a wine lover. You don't have to have a professional affiliation. You can pay to attend. And then the rest of the days is more wine business, importers, you know, this kind of thing. So it's really fun. I really recommend it. And if you do attend this wine fair and also any other wine tasting, any industry tasting or whether you're professional or not, if you've never been to a wine fair before, is even if you're just getting started in the industry, for whatever reason, it's your first wine fair or one of your first wine fairs. I have an important thing to tell you about which is spitting in Italian. The word for spittoon is Sputakiera and it is what you use to spew the wine that you've tasted from your mouth because if you get drunk in the first 10 minutes because you're swallowing the wine, which will happen if you're tasting a bunch of wines, then that's it for you. You're not tasting any wine for the rest of the day. You might have a fun time but you're not going to be able to have your sensory capacity, your memory, and everything with you. And if you really think that you're going to taste all the wines and it's just not safe, you really got to spit. Now, the reason I'm bringing this up, it seems obvious, right? When you think about it, but I found it was really hard, something that was really hard for me to learn because it feels counterintuitive. So you're wasting beautiful wine, right? You're not wasting it right because you're tasting it they want you to taste it that's what they're there for so try to remember you're not wasting the wine by spitting it out to taste it is the purpose of the event just to taste and the the other thing that feels counterintuitive we're difficult about it is it's kind of gross right it's it's a weird thing to get used to and then I have to say vinita lee it's it's busy it's bustling New York wine fairs are so much more crowded. It's actually wonderful that they have glasses for you at each of the stands. They have these big stands and some littler ones where they have kind of everything they need to teach you the wine. You don't have to carry your wine glass around. I like that it's less crowded than New York wine fairs. I like that I don't have to carry my glass around. There's a little more space, but you still times have to be very assertive to get to that spit bucket. And so here you are, you know, maybe you're new with this, you know, maybe you're in another country, you know, you, you know, you need to spit, but there you are. It's hard for you to spit out this beautiful thing feels wasteful. It feels gross. And then you have to push your way towards the spit bucket. So you have to be assertive. I have a funny thing that I think helps if you're just getting used to this it's kind of silly but I like it just pretend that you have a very curse on you so that you know at lunchtime you can swallow your wine at dinnertime you can swallow your wine at a baritibo you can swallow your your apparel spritz or whatever spritz you like but during the time at the wine fair, it's like, I don't know, kryptonite, poison. Like you can taste the wine and enjoy it, but if you swallow it, that's it for you. You've fallen into the fairy lands and not the nice kind. So that's something that helps me as far as getting to that spit bucket. Listen, just take up space, go, use little nonverbal communication. You've got wine in your mouth, I need to get to the spit it. Sometimes they have little handles. You can grab it and bring it towards yourself. It's weird at first, but it is worth it. And I have a phrase for you from Milan that I love that people don't necessarily use in other parts of Italy. It's grande, spingy. So grande is just kind of a greeting like a nice complimentary general nickname like kind of like hey hey guy hey friend grande you know like big great great you're great I love it it's a great nickname so it's kind of a hey you and then Spingy means like go for it it means push I said this to a friend from Amelia Ramon yet once and she said no we don't say that it sounds like you're pushing out a baby that's so funny but in Milan which is you know very business -y place maybe you Well, they say, okay, push, go for it, push. So grande, spingy, get there, get that spit bucket. That's for you, that's what you're supposed to do, just go for it. And pretty soon, it'll feel like second nature. The other thing I wanted to talk to you about was seeing everything, learning everything. Let me give you a secret. In wine in general, but especially in Italy, you can't see everything. You can't learn everything, there's too much. No one could do it. And again, even if you could learn everyone in Italy, which there's hundreds of different grapes, that's the fun, it would change the next year because every vintage is a different vintage. (gentle music) So, just jump in the pool, get started, learn a little bit. I would say trying to visit every pavilion because each region of Italy, each wine region, of which there are 20, has a giant building devoted just to that region. So there just isn't enough time, especially if you have some master classes that you want to go to. There's some great events to attend. I would say pick a really focused goal, a few things that you really want to learn, that you really want to taste, and just stick with that. The other thing is that you, someone told me the first time I came to this fair, which was really helpful to me, is that you have to make appointments. Now, you don't always have to make an appointment, but it's really helpful. You don't want to find your way to a producer that you really want to taste, only to find out that they're there at a business meeting with their importer or something, and the, you know, they don't have time to taste with you. If there's something that you really need to see that you really need to taste, there's an app that with all the exhibitors, It gives you their email. You can email them make an appointment with them Hopefully not the day before the fair a little advanced notice is great And then you'll know that you'll get to taste that wine that you really want to taste now. It's good I think also to Spend some time also wondering around I had a really great time at the micro mega tent this is a of the smaller producers at little or tense, great energy actually found that when sort of traditional Viniciusly was kind of winding down around four o 'clock, there's still rockin' and rollin' in the micromegatent. They're small, organic producers, especially ones that make wine from obscure grapes that maybe need to be rescued and revitalized in order to keep them from falling out of being planted at all. I loved the micro megatint. That was really fun. I met some great producers there. Things like the Vinny Sola producer from the island of Pantilleria. I discovered their wines. They were amazing. I had had Zibibo, the grapes they make there from Sicily, but not from Pantilleria really. Maybe I'd had a Vecito once or twice. I am making dry ones. They're making sparkling wines from Zibibo, which is a really interesting grape. I thought their wines were amazing. That was a discovery that I made. And also the Tatsulenge team, that's a really rare grape from Friuli with a lot of tannins. That's, it's called the tongue cutter. That's the translation of the local name. So I got to meet some, a person there who is representing a team of growers who make Tatsulenge or the Nishita team that is a white grape from Piedmont that is being revitalized with a group of producers. So micro megatents really fun, great energy, almost like a fermentation vibe, just bubbling way in there. So you know, that was a great spot to wander around. So it's not that you have to have appointments for every single thing. Try to keep a balance of, okay, I want to attend a masterclass, I want to make some specific appointments and then I want to have some time to just see where the fair takes me, discover some things that are new to me. So that's my advice for appointments. And I do have a saying for that that has been repeated to me. It's almost a category of sayings. Actually, I learned some new versions of it this this trip to Italy. And this is kind of a funny one. It's when you want to have everything, but actually, you can't because it's not possible. And that is someone Someone wants Bota Piena and La Molie Uriaca. So somebody wants the full wine barrel and the drunk wife. So I think this is hilarious. You know what, you've got your happy wife. She's enjoying herself, but also the barrel's full. No, you can't have both, so you can't do it all. Just accept that and do what you can and you'll have a great time. And so another thing I want to speak to you is about equilibrio balance. And so for yourself, this is a big busy fair. You can hear in my voice, I've talked a lot, I've talked to a lot of people, it can be taxing on your health, not just because, you know, you're trying to spit out this alcohol, but because it's you've traveled, it's a long day, maybe a long night. So just take care of yourself, slow down, don't be macho. I know that here at Moto De Berry I've taught you several different sayings about not drinking water, that whining out here. Obviously this is a joke, it's a metaphor for enjoying your life. Drink water, if you need some water you can ask someone that you're tasting with "hey can I have some water?" They're gonna have that there for you. Wear comfortable shoes, feed yourself. Take some time. You don't want to get sick. Just pace yourself. When you have these busy weeks in wine, a lot of food, a lot of wine in the evening, maybe just really think about what your purpose is. What your purpose is there. For me, it's always to make friends, to sell stories, and to learn. The best way that I can learn is if I'm feeling good, if I'm feeling strong. It's just wonderful to be traveling here. They've beautiful sandwiches, just the most beautiful sandwiches every time I have one. I just feel like I'm revived. So take some time, wear comfortable shoes, the most fashionable, amazing women in wine that I know in Italy who I'm sure have a lot of fancy shoes. We're all wearing big boots. You know, maybe a platform boot, maybe a little dazzle on the boot, but a boot, okay? So take care of yourself. And so that's the word for, in wine as well. Equilibrial. Things are unequilibrio. That's a little wine tasting term for you. Speaking of shoes, a little note about packing. I got some great advice from a friend of mine. It went the first time I came to this fair. He told me about the appointments. You know, he told me about dinner reservations. That can be difficult. Although there are a lot of restaurants in Verona. Some of the hottest places, it's gonna be hard hard to get into if you don't have an event that you're part of or made reservations in advance. But just just wander around a little bit. You'll find something to eat. Don't worry, Italians want everyone to get something to eat. But my friend was a guy and didn't necessarily talk to me about packing. So it's a fun, fun week. There's symphony concerts going on. There's different kinds of parties. You know, it's just really lovely. And also it's a springtime and the weather can change a lot from day to night as a part of why at least such a great place to make wine because you have what we call a diurnal shift which helps the grapes maintain their acidity as they ripen. We had some sunny beautiful days here and some kind of chilly nights and mornings this week. There was also one day where there was a big rainstorm with a little bit of hail because everyone's thinking about their vines back home. You know, oh no, there's some hail. I hope that's not happening to my vineyard. Bring an umbrella, bring some layers, bring some outfits for some different occasions. You never know what kind of adventure you're gonna have. And since I did get caught in the rain, the umbrella that I brought across the ocean with me, I did not bring with me that day. It was fine. I made friends with someone else with an umbrella. Everybody kind of huddled together and enjoyed discussing the weather under an awning. There's a cute phrase that I like about rain that I learned in Italian, which is "piove sul barriato." It rains on the wet. I think that's really funny. We say in English when it rains it pours, but I like the one in Italian even better. So try to be prepared. Try to pack for everything light but with layers and different levels of dressiness so that you can be ready for anything. Thank you so much for listening to this special edition of "Motordy Berry" with my scratchy voice. I really hope that you liked it. I hope that you learned something. I always have more to learn. That's just the truth of it. I learned some things this week. You know, maybe you know some of this already, but maybe some of it's helpful. I hope so. You can tell me what you think of this episode and anything else you've heard or seen on the MotoDBerry podcast, the MotoDBerry YouTube channel, MotoDBerry Instagram and TikTok. There's a lot of great content there. More happening all the time. So much things that I have gathered and learned in Italy this this trip that I cannot wait to share with you. So if there's something that you like. Tell me how you like the show. Tell me if there's something that you want me to cover. Tell me if there's a local drink or a local saying that you think that our listeners should know about. You can send me an email at my website, motoduberry .com, send me a message on Instagram that can follow me @motoduberry. There's also a Facebook page. Just get in there, follow the show and I really appreciate it. I really appreciate everybody who's listening. Yeah, go to Vinitili, it's really fun, or go to a wine fair near you. Hopefully this advice was helpful to you. You can become a supporter of the show if you love it, if you wanna continue to grow at our Patreon. You can also find a link to that on my website, MotoDBerry .com. Wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Thanks again and see you next week with another interview. Follow Motodiberia on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok for even more unique and encouraging drinks and language content. If you'd love for the show to continue and grow, support Motodiberia on Patreon and unlock bonus episodes. Find out more at motoduberia .com, where you can also read the blog. Music for the podcast was composed by Ercilia Prosperi and performed by the band OU. You can purchase their recordings at oumusic .bandcamp .com. Engañándose, déjase para sí mismo Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Wine Makes Blood ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e7-michela-musolino/) [ Horses in the Vineyard ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e5-horses-in-the-vineyard-roberto-di-filippo/) ### ▷S1E5 Cavalli nella vigna con Roberto di Filippo di Plani Arche URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e5-roberto-di-filippo/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:31:57.000Z Bebe, Diamante e Pioggia sono una squadra di cavalli che praticano la viticoltura biologica in Umbria con Roberto di Fillippo. Roberto si interessò al lavoro con i cavalli quando lui e la sua moglie Elena hanno aperto una seconda azienda agricola in Romani con il loro compagno Roberto Pieroni. Naturalmente fece amicizia con gli amish per chiedere consiglio. Roberto racconta a Rose Thomas l'intera storia mentre assaggiano il vino fatto dalle uve locali dell'Umbria e del Delta del Danubio in Romania. [www.planiarche.it](http://www.planiarche.it/?ref=mododibere.com) [www.lasapata.com](https://www.lasapata.com/?ref=mododibere.com) ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/roberto-di-filippo-format-original.jpg) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)ma soprattutto la prima cosa che dico è se volete godere del vino e siete a tavolo con qualcuno, non parlate troppo di vino, il vino deve essere un compagno silenzioso, magari basta un semplice commento o due e basta, ma parlate di ben altro, il vino quello che farà e con quel po di acqua che ha e che renderà il vostro dialogo, la vostra chiacchierata senza briglia e senza così più disinhibita. Sono entusiasta oggi di presentare Roberto di Filippo. Grazie. Mi piacerebbe dire che Roberto è un veneolo, è davvero un enologo, ma mi copisce piace che la parola di descrivere Roberto potrebbe potrebbe essere contadino? Giusto, lo dico con orgoglio, contadino, contadino un po' come voi dite una mezza strada tra Redneck e Farmer, però penso che sia lo spirito giusto quello del contadino. Bravo, perso, pratica agricoltura biologica da 30 anni insieme con sua moglie, Elena, la sua azienda vinicola in Umbria si chiama "Plani Arche". Devo che dire non soltanto Roberto e Elena lavorano nei campi, sono raggiunti da una squadra di cavalli. Sì. Da 2010, anche fanno vino in Romania, nel regione Danube Delta. Roberto, abbiamo così tanto di cui parlare. Prima di iniziare l 'intervista, se ti piace modo di bere italiano, per favore, metti in pausa il programma per un minuto, vai su Apple Podcast, assegniarci cinque stelle e scrivi una recensione. Aiuta davvero la persona a scoprire il programma. racconte me qualcosa delle vostre aziende? Oh bene, abbiamo queste due aziende piuttosto impegnative, una inumbria, dove c 'è una storia tradizionale di tradizioni anche ricerciente divino, e un 'altra invece che sta in Romania, in una zona un po' più selvaggia, sul Delta del Danubio dove praticamente terreni, clima e persone sono completamente diverse. Le agende sono la cantina Plani Arche in ombria e l 'agenda la cantina La Sapata che sta sul destra del Danubio. Il nome ufficiale è "Krama Delta Dunari" che in rumeno significa "cantina del destra del Danubio". Mi piace iniziare chiedendo una bevanda locale e un detto locale, non vero l 'ora di chiederti delle uve locale in Umbria, anche quelli della Romania, ma vorrei iniziare con il detto, forse uno sui cavalli. Ma perché no? Direi, ha dato anche la mia indole alla nostra indole, è matto come un cavallo "The crazy horse", sì, matto come un cavallo. Quando una persona fa molto rumore, molto... Ma diciamo quando una persona è superante, quando noi diciamo è... va al di fuori delle righe. Mi piace queste persone. Sì, in qualche modo ci assomigliano. I cavali, anche, ho bisogno di sapere tutto dei cavali, i loro nomi, i loro compleani. Come ti aiutano i cavali nella vigna? Dunque, loro nomi adesso in azienda diamante Bebé in Italia e Pioggia. A diamante Bebé hanno circa 9 e 10 anni, Pioggia ha 6 anni e praticamente loro mi non le lavorazioni in vigna nei filari quindi mi aiutano a adarare sotto le viti ad affinare il tarreno a tagliare l 'erba sono lavori di controllo delle erbe infestanti perché dico controllo non eliminare le erbe infestanti perché le erbe fanno parte della biodiversità e quindi in qualche modo devono comunque vivere con la vigna, non bisogna eliminarle, non è bella una vigna senza un filo di erba. Dimmi delle uve che sono "Atocten e Dell 'Umbria", per favore. Le uve "Atocten e Dell 'Umbria", le più famose sono tre, abbiamo il famoso "Sagrantino", che il conome si ricorda un po' sacramento, sacrovino perché probabilmente è stato scoperto, usato piccaltro all 'inizio dei monaci, dei monasteri umbri, a Montefaco, parliamo di 400 -500 anni fa. Ove bianche abbiamo il grechetto, significa piccolo greco, e poi abbiamo il trebbiano spoletino, che anche se lo stesso nome del trebbiano comunque è molto diverso dal Trebbiano Toscano o il Trebbiano Dabruzzo. Perché avete scegliato il nome della Vigna in Umbria? Plani Arche. Plani Arche. Sì, Plani Arche è Planum Arche, un po' dal latino che significa Pianura della Rocca. Era, al se evidentemente, una pianura dove centinaia di anni fa c 'era un castello e comunque è il posto dove, storicamente, San Francesco ha fatto la predica ai Uccelli e è stato un momento molto importante della vita del santo, della persona di Francesco. Ha diverse versioni questa storia, quella riconosciuta dalla Chiesa, e quella che dice che San Francesco praticamente parlava, lo dava il signore e lo ringraziava per la nostra madre terra, per l 'enuvo, il sole e lo faceva sotto un albero e miracolosamente io ci allissavano in silenzio ad ascoltare. Poi c 'è quella la storia apocrifa che invece non è riconosciuto officialmente e dice che San Francesco cercava in continuazione e cibo, soldi, qualcosa da dare i poveri quindi è girato giorni e giorni e dopo giorni praticamente non aveva raccolto nulla e allora arrabbiato è andato sotto questa pianta con gli uccelli e ha detto siccome gli uomini sono stupidi preferisco parlare con voi perché almeno mi ascoltate quindi praticamente tutte e due le storie, penso, potrebbero essere autentiche, sappiamo che il San Francesco era una persona alternativa, un freak dei suoi tempi e inizialmente non era nemmeno riconosciuto dalla chiesa perché era dalla parte dei poveri, una volta i poveri erano visti come persone brutte, sporche, cattive e quindi andavano emarginate dalla società, invece in qualche modo Francesco ha ricreato il collegamento tra le persone povere e l 'istituzione di allora che era la Chiesa. Capisci questa cosa di animale, no? Perché lavorate insieme con gli animali. Sì. Nel campi, no? Sì, sì. Come fa lavorando insieme con animali? Sicuramente è piacevole, molto bello e affascinante, soprattutto con animali come come i cavalli che sono molto sensibili, ti ascoltano negli Stati Uniti, per esempio una volta hanno fatto un articolo, mi hanno soprannominato l 'enologo che sussurre i cavalli, the horse whisper my waymaker. Era la cosa, che è uno scherzo su anche su un film, diciamo che è un modo di condividere lo sforzo, il lavoro di tutti i giorni con questi animali molto sensibili che diventano anche il tuo specchio, capiscono quando è la giornata in cui sei in forma, allora sei un leader che riconoscono come delle arte giornate in cui magari sei giù, non sei in forma e allora se ne approfittano un po' perché possono anche essere biricchine e provano a fare quello che vogliono, quindi ti specchi diciamo con questi animali, ma è così anche con un cane comunque con un po' tutti gli animali che hanno delle altre sensibilità rispetto a noi uomini, è stata dura insomma adattarsi, recuperare l 'abitudine di lavorare con i cavalli, ci abbiamo messo molti anni, iniziato nel 2010, praticamente quando sono andato in Romania, ho avuto anche diversi incidenti lavorando con i cavalli per cui bisogna dire, bisogna essere testardi per lavorare con i cavalli e non abbandonare alla prima difficoltà. mi piace dire che noi come società si siamo ramolliti "gift soft" praticamente siamo diventati soft per cui abbiamo difficoltà a recuperare queste attitudini dure che però ti fanno recuperare anche molti aspetti del tuo essere uovo da essere umano e quindi i vostri comunque saranno anche strani ma sono comunque un patrimonio per voi americani quindi tenete lì e abbiate le cura e speriamo che mantengono queste tradizioni. Hai parlato con con i Amish? Sì ho avuto la fortuna di stare in contatto con alcuni di loro sfortunatamente non per molto tempo si è in Ohio, si è in Pennsylvania, perché sono andato lì per cercare attrezzi per lavorare con i cavalli, per studiarli, copiarne delle idee, sono stato lì per cercare dei finimenti, i harness e loro hanno una grandissima produzione di queste cose, anche relativamente economiche. Da lì poi sono stato in grado di costruire dei prototipi molto efficienti per lavorare dentro la vigna. Ho avuto idee sia da Yamish, sia da i miei colleghi francesi, Vignaglioli e pensa che dopo anni di lavori abbiamo raggiunto un 'efficienza tale per cui lavorare con il cavallo è meno costoso che lavorare con il trattore sicuramente è più duro perché richiede un lungo training però questo ti fa pensare che non sempre la tecnologia ti dai risultati che tu aspetti. Un meraviglioso scambio degli informazioni. Sì chiamiamo la guarda bellissimo chiamiamo la contaminazione non so se capisci bene Sì, l 'idea si rende perfettamente, siamo qui, Rose, stiamo scambiandoci delle dè, quindi in qualche modo ci contaminiamo positivamente, più idea ci scampiamo e nessuno perde qualcosa mentre ambi cresciamo. Sono qua per questo. Credo che assaggiamo sacrantino ancora, perché... Sì. prossimamente poi continuare a fare questa podcast e intitolarlo "contaminazioni". "Contaminazione", buon idea. Ok, so, assaggiamo il sagrantino, dimmi la storia del... la storia è qua, nel bicchiere. - Sì, nel bicchiere, beh, la storia del sagrantino, te lo ho detto prima, che ha questo nome che viene da sacramento, sacrovino perché vinivo usato principalmente per fare un vino passito che vinivo usato durante la messa. Poi negli anni 70 si è cominciato a farlo anche nella versione secca quindi più complesso, più aggressivo e adesso questo vino è probabilmente il vino più tannico che c 'è al mondo. Bisogna avere dei tannini morbidi perché altrimenti si beve molto difficilmente e per fare dei tannini morbidi ho visto che è molto importante fare un 'agricoltura naturale quindi non usare concimi chimici per nulla, evitare di usare trattamenti chimici sistemici che entrano in circolo nella pianta ma si può usare la vecchia portiglia bordolese e tutto questo aiuta a avere comunque dei tannini, dei polifenoli più maturi, più naturali, a quel punto sono tannini che quando li bevi senti l 'intensità del tannino ma allo stesso tempo non ti asciugano la lingua, mentre i tannini di bassa qualità ti seccano, la lingua ti impediscono di bagnarla, quella è una sensazione spiacevole, bevuto un bicchiere, ti fermi, non bevi più, è un vino sicuramente che va abbinato con piatti importanti quindi può essere una bistecca come un brasato come anche un blue cheese forte e invecchiato e ha un colore particolare, il sagrantino, vedi, andiamo un po' a ritroso, si parla prima del gusto e poi del colore, ha un colore oscuro, profondo a questo rosso rubino con una punta di marrone che è appunto dato dalla presenza di questi tannini che cambiano un po' le lettonalità e diciamo che è un colore unico quello del sacrantino. Un buona notte per la persone che assaggiano cecchino E al naso trovo non molte notte delle frutte, ma del terreno dei funghi. Sì, il naso non ha questi profumi facili di fruttati in Italia diciamo ruffiani come può essere un merlofruttato e queste cose ma piuttosto questi aromi da sotto bosco terra bagnata, funghi, tartufo, addirittura, ecco dimenticato dedettelo prima anche di sal nitro, sal nitro sarebbe flint, firestone, a questi aromi minerali, sono aromi che io definisco un po dark, che ne fanno di un vino un po' particolare, unico, autentico anche perché avere degli aromi di frutta tecnicamente alle volte è facile, ti aiuti con tante cose quelli, invece questi aromi qui sono aromi che vengono da una buona agricoltura, cioè mi piace dire che per fare un buon sacrantino deve essere prima un bravo agricoltore quindi un contadino come hai detto prima, e poi anche un bravo enologo, un bravo gantineere, perché devi essere in grado di conservare quello che di più importante è prodotto in vigna. Mi piacerebbe mangiare un tartufo adesso, no? L 'ideale sarebbe guardare un bel brassato, un dito con vino rosso, magari il sagrantino e tartufo, un po' di pepe e sarebbe fantastico col sagrantino perché è ibrasato a quella dolcezza che si sposa bene con i tannini del sagrantino. Oro fammi, si in bocca, si mi sento il tannino ma non attaccano la bocca. Sì, fai questa osservazione. Bevi, senti questi tannini intensi che ti entri in bocca, ti coprono tutta la lingua, ma la lingua non resta secca, anzi stimula la salivazione. Certamente, non soltanto fare secco, la bocca. Forse assaggiamo in l 'ordine sbagliato. Sì, oh grazie per avvinare. Non abbiamo molto del crocchetto, ma siamo un piccolo, un sorso. Un po' di cricchetto, sì. Ok dimmi la storia della cricchetto. Dunque il cricchetto è un uva probabilmente bianca più popolare che c 'è in umbra. È un uva se vogliamo anche difficile da vinificare perché è un uva che prende facilmente colore, quindi note marognole, però è un uva complessa che ha un profumo anche l 'empoterrosa, ha un gusto tannico, un po' d 'alegno quindi bisogna uno di una vinificazione molto delicata per non estrarre dall 'uva quello che poi è scradevole e poi da questo vino complesso che ha questa leggera tannicità che aiuta per esempio il vino ad accompagnare anche delle carni, io lo vedrei molto bene, per esempio ho mangiato ieri un oximo cheeseburger fatto fresco in un buon ristorante a Manhattan, era "The Little Old" e praticamente ci sarebbe stato benissimo, ci stava benissimo un grecchetto, appunto con questa tannicità che accompagna l 'hamburger che non ha questa carne troppo aggressiva, In Italia lo abbiniamo molto bene anche a prosciutto, alla porchetta, naturalmente sta bene su primi piatti e così via, è un bianco eclettico, veramente si abbina a tante cose o si vive semplicemente da aperitivo con del finger food. Grazie mille per questo abbinamento, un vino bianco con cheeseburger, con cheeseburger. Bravo. Il naso per me sembra come un posto vicino, un piccolo fiume, un posto bandiato con l 'Iran e un po' d 'astagno, po' d 'astagno, a pond, stai d 'accordo? Un po' ricorda, anche ricorda anche l 'erba fresca che c 'è intorno. È una nota piaccevole del questo oscuro posto come un... come si dice? Not as... not as... stagnant. Sì. But a creek. A creek. A creek. Come si dice questo? Ruscello. Ruscello, yeah. Ma guarda anche come il sagrantino, anche il grecchetto non ha una Roma fancy ruffiano. Ha una Roma autentico che ricorda anche le pietre, ha un po' anche di frutta polpa gialla come può essere una pesca, ma ricorda anche la terra, appunto il legno, l 'erba fresca, il druscello, lo stagno, si ci può stare, sono tutti aromi autentici? è possibile che trovo qualcosa come lana. Io ci tengo mosto a non dare direttamente l 'idea dell 'oggetto del frutto che può ricordare perché non dimentichiamo che gli aromi sono potentissimi nello stimolare ricordi, stimolano la tua fantasia, quindi se a te ricorda la lana assolutamente ci sta, non mi piace quando somiglieri professionisti dicono dettagliatamente quali profumi senti in un vino, anche perché mettono in imbarazzo il consumatore che dopo ha paura di dire qualcosa il vino è piacevole è piacevole è piacere scusa e quindi praticamente non bisogna mettere in difficoltà che lo beve altrimenti non ha nessun piacere poi è bello sono completamente d 'accordo con te grazie ogni persona ha diversa esperienza del del rome dei romi certo per me non non This is the sea. I was 16 years old. Where were you born? Colorado. I grew up in Nebraska. Okay. Midwest, so in the center. Yes, so the first time I visited the Hamptons, a place with a lot of seafood, I opened un casetto ho chiesto perché avete tante cose per appelto il noce per riprire le noce schiaccia noce schiaccia noce si ma non erano come si dice the nutcracker schiaccia noce schiaccia noce erano per crab per Crab. Per granchi. Sì, per me l 'esperienza, allora, agli ascoltatori, se non trovi una volta un vino che una persona fancy dice che c 'è, non c 'è, you know? Esatto. È la tua memoria la cosa da pensare sempre o quando parlate di vino prima di tutto di te a me piace e a me non piace e questa è una cosa che nessuno potrà mai contestare perché nessuno può dire no questo vino è buono quindi ti devi piacere sbagliato non ti piace punto altra cosa è dire a me questo vino ricorda questo frutto e quindi anche questo è incontestabile quindi tranquillamente bevete ma soprattutto la prima cosa che dico se volete godere del vino e si trattaola con qualcuno non parlate troppo di vino, il vino deve essere un compagno silenzioso magari basta un semplice commento o due e basta, va parlata di ben altro, il vino quello che farà e con quel po di alco che ha e che renderà il vostro dialogo, la vostra chiacchierata senza briglia e senza così più disinhibita. Sì, quando incontro un vino assolutamente di qualità con equilibrio perfetto. In quelle case non ci sono parole. Non ci sono notte di questo 16 notte del sapore, soltanto buono. So, Grecchetto, mi piace, grazie per assaggiare con me. Parliamo un po' di romania in che modo la terra è diversa delta del danubio? il terreno umbro è un terreno pesante argilloso calcareo in un clima mediterraneo quindi caldo relativamente umido non troppo più voce nella mia zona e da comunque vini complessi se vogliamo anche un po rustici però sono vini corposi in romania abbiamo invece un terreno sabbioso limoso siamo sulle montagne di macin quindi nel sottosuolo troviamo anche roccia e i vini sono più minerali il clima è un continentale freddo d 'inverno e abbastanza secco d 'estate anzi direi piuttosto secco d 'estate ma le vite sembra non soffrire la siccità, vengono vini più eleganti e forse un po' meno complessi, meno corposi, ma con una buona mineralità e un 'eleganza splendida, oltre che è un frutto autentico ed interessante. Quindi è stato bello in qualche modo mettere in gioco la mia esperienza, mettere in gioco la mia capacità di fare vino in un territorio completamente diverso con delle uve completamente diverse e il mio obiettivo è stato finito all 'inizio di estrarre qualcosa di tipico qualcosa che potesse parlare di Romania, quindi non fare un vino internazionale. Nella Romania come va la vostra esperienza di entrare come esterno? Beh è stata un 'esperienza piuttosto forte anche perché abbiamo deciso di investire in maniera etica solidale e quindi le condizioni che ho dato quando abbiamo iniziato a fare business è stato prima di tutto di fare agricoltura biologica perché io non so fare altro sono 27 anni quasi 30 anni che facciamo agricoltura biologica, può di investire utilizzando le materie del posto e anche di farlo insieme alle persone del posto, quindi solidale con la gente del villaggio, della romania, della regione. Infatti, per esempio, possiamo dire come i nostri colleghi italiani, i francesi e spagnoli hanno investito e hanno piantato molta vigna con i fondi europei, la vigna è stata piantata con materiali importati, quindi non so, i pali dalla profila alzazia in Francia, le piante, le piccole viti dell 'Italia, ferro dal belgio, i fili e il tutto magari piantato da una compagnia italiana o spagnola che con macchinari sofisticati ha piantato centinaia o migliaia di ettari di vigna. Noi abbiamo invece acquistato i pali in Transilvania, pali di legna, rustici, naturali, belli. Abbiamo comprato le piante in Romania, in Mulflatlar e per piantare la vigna ho assunto 20 persone del villaggio e io da vecchio Vignaggolo, da Vignaggola la vecchia maniera con la vanghetta con uno strumento, ho insegnato a queste persone a piantare questi ettari di vigna, quindi insieme abbiamo piantato 20 ettari di vigna. Nel nostro modo di investire il 90 % dei soldi degli aiuti europei sono rimasti nel territorio, mentre nell 'altro modo di investire dei miei colleghi abbiamo penso che il 90 % dei soldi è andato fuori dal territorio, fuori dalla romania. Questo è un approccio etico solidale anche perché ci ha permesso di creare dei legami sempre più forti con la gente del posto, con la gente inizialmente del villaggio, il sindaco del piccolo se somova un paese di quattro mila persone, ma poi si è allargata, diciamo, in qualche modo il nostro legame, i nostri collegamenti, e siamo un punto di riferimento anche per la regione, per il sindaco di Tulcio, alla città, la Contea, quindi praticamente è quello che si dovrebbe pensare di fare, cioè di non sfruttare un territorio e impoverirlo, ma in qualche modo collaborare con le persone del posto e di arricchirlo. Parliamo di tradizione. Sul tuo sito web vedo belle foto di te e Elena, Pigiatura deruva a piedi, in una stiva e nel terreno con le anfore lavorando con i cavalli. Cosa si guadagna lavorando in modo così tradizionale? Sicuramente si recuperano delle tradizioni, si recupera un pezzo di storia. Con i cavalli sicuramente abbiamo l 'avantage di acquisire fascino come azienda e attrattivo da parte delle persone, venire a visitare e vedere un 'azienda dove ancora si lavorano i terreni e alla vecchia maniera non solo i cavalli comunque sono multifunzionali quindi andiamo a fare anche detturi in carrozza con i nostri splenditi cavalli diamante bebe e le anfore fanno parte invece di uno studio che in qualche modo portato avanti in maniera li siamo in zona tra caocasca o la zona balkanica si chiama adesso il crescent quella zona quella mezzaluna che parte dalla bulgaria se vogliamo bulgaria romania ucraina crimea dove praticamente c 'è tradizione e produzione di vino e ho studiato anche però la vicina zona caocasca della giorgia che è una zona dove sembra sia nata l 'agricoltura e anche il vino e dove sono state trovate anfore vecchie di 5 -6 mila anni dove quindi hanno questa tradizione di vinificazione del vino fatto in anfora sottoterra, macerazioni molto lunghe di 6 mesi e lo stoccaggio sottoterra che permette di mantenere una temperatura ottimale e costante e quindi da una finezza particolare al vino. I vini fatti in amphora sotto terra, quelli che ho assaggiato in Dara Giorgia, quelli fatti bene, anche perché non tutti anche lì sono fatti bene, comunque sono di una eleganza straordinaria. Quindi cerchiamo di recuperare questa tradizione e di raccontare anche nella storia perché poi anche i nostri romani e di nostri etruschi hanno fatto vini in terracotta anche i greci e quindi insomma ecco che è una tradizione che attraversa dal caocaso ha viaggiato attraverso il crescent, è arrivato in zona balkanica probabilmente poi è passato l 'italia fino ad arrivare in francia dove hanno sono andati anche oltre la terracotta e li hanno fatto le botte in legno, quindi la famosa barric, la fudra, botte e così via. Questa è un po' una storia, veloce storia del vino raccontata in pochi secondi. Raccontami un po' delle uve romania. Ci sono alcuni vitigni piuttosto popolari e abbastanza diffusi come per quanto riguarda i bianchi, la fettasca regala, la fettasca alba e poi ci sono diversi tipi di vive aromatiche come la grassa di connari, la tomeiosa romanesca, poi abbiamo per quanto riguarda le rosse, probabilmente la più popolare è la feteasca negra oltre alla babesca negra, entrambi due vitigni piuttosto morbidi e fruttati che danno dei divini, probabilmente i migliori in romania a differenza, diciamo, dei vitini internazionali che secondo me non danno il meglio in quel territorio. Mi piace il naso in babayaska, babayaska, babayaska neagra, molto amabile il naso. Molto fruttato è in bocca morbido, buono, grazie, è stato un bell 'impegno, è stato sicuramente valse la pena andare a lavorare a 2 .000 chilometri di distanza per fare questo vino. Buono come le frutte azure, è una notte di spezia. Sì, il mirtillo, quindi Dillo sì. Pepe bianco. Sì anche. Timo. Lissiva sulle erbe mediterraneo quindi le sfumature sono tante però quando una delle cose che mi ha fascinato in quella zona dove sono stato e che mi ha tratto è stato appunto quando sono andato in Vigneto era aprile in primavera e ho sentito questi profumi di erbe mediterranei anche di rosmarino presenti nell 'area. è stata una attrazione non fatto delle analisi molto sofisticate quando sono andato lì sono stato attratto in qualche modo dall 'energia selvaggia del posto e anche da questi aromi anche sono andato ad annusare il terreno, letteralmente a guardarlo, osservarlo, guardare la ricchezza che non fosse troppo fertile, altrimenti il vino non viene bene, però che abbia una sua complessità e lì ho scelto la Doborg, appunto questo terreno piuttosto questa zona piuttosto remota della Romania. È molto buono al vino. Grazie. Bravo. Bravo il il terreno e tutte le cose che fanno un vino no? bravi roberto roberto perché il mio socio praticamente quello che poi vive lì è che al 90 % il vino fa lui diciamo dietro le mie indicazioni perché alla fine chi ha la preparazione del nologo sono io ma ormai lui ha acquisito un 'ottima esperienza e un Sinergismo è una collaborazione sicuramente straordinaria, quindi insomma devo dire in 12 anni è diventato un 'eccellente white maker anche lui. Sì, sì, è possibile di fare più con un gruppo, con un gruppo buono, sì. Roberto, dove possono trovare altre informazioni? Sicuramente sui social, in internet, sui nostri siti web, quindi www .planiarch .it è il sito dell 'azienda italiana e la sapata .com è l 'azienda invece rumena, lì ci sono informazioni poi non fate altro comunque tutt 'attarci anche attraverso i siti internet per noi in qualche modo è un piacere raccontarvi la nostra storia perché è chiaro che andiamo oltre il business e quindi quando riusciamo a condividere lo sforzo che abbiamo fatto quando riusciamo a condividere la nostra avventura non può che farci piacere. Roberto grazie, grazie mille per parlare con me. Oggi è a tutti i nostri ascoltatori. Grazie, ovunque tu vada e qualunque cosa tu beva, ricorda di goderti la vita e di non smettere mai di imparare. Ah, grazie Ross, è importante, importante sognare in qualche modo lottare per avverare questi sogni. Se ami il progetto, puoi diventare sostenitore del programma su Patreon e accelere a più contenuti esclusivi ed educativi. Le informazioni su www .mododibere .com La musica è stata composta da Ercilia Prosperi per il gruppo OU. Poi ascoltarli su www .allumusic .bandcap .com La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto, registrato, e montato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Steve Silverstein ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S1E5 Horses in the Vineyard with Roberto di Filippo of Plani Arche URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e5-horses-in-the-vineyard-roberto-di-filippo/ Last updated: 2026-08-26T03:29:39.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e5-roberto-di-filippo/) Bebe, Diamante, and Pioggia are a team of Italian horses who practice organic viticulture in Umbria with Roberto di Filippo. Roberto got into working with horses when he and his wife Elena opened a second winery in Romania with their partner Roberto Pieroni. Naturally, he made friends with a couple of Amish farmers to ask for advice. Roberto tells Rose Thomas the whole story as they taste and discuss wines made from the local grapes of Umbria and Romania's Danube Delta. [www.planiarche.it](http://www.planiarche.it/?ref=mododibere.com) [www.lasapata.com](https://www.lasapata.com/?ref=mododibere.com) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cq3Pa-7NF%5FH/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cq3Pa-7NF%5FH/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CqkM5PGjrrX/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CqkM5PGjrrX/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cq6qXh8sBlB/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cq6qXh8sBlB/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript I call the sargarantino aroma the dark aroma because it is not so fancy like a fruit team or low or something like that. You can smell the underwood, smell wet ground, hummus, truffle, mushrooms, so it's... I do, I find the truffle now. Yeah. Oh, I wish I was eating some truffles right now. With this that would be amazing. Let's see please. It's a good pairing with the Sergantino. It could be wild boar with truffle. Excellent with Sergantino. Life is good, right? Salute. Cheers. I’m Rose Thomas Bannister, and today I'm very excited to be talking with Roberto Di Filippo. Roberto has been practicing organic viticulture for over 30 years. He and his wife Elena run the Plani Arche winery in the central Italian region of Umbria, but not just Roberto and Elena work on their farm. In the field, they are also joined by a team of horses. In 2010, along with their partner Roberto Peroni, they started a winery in the Danube Delta region of Romania. Roberto, welcome, we have so much to talk about. Thank you so much, Rose. I'm proud to be here. Real quick, before we start the interview, if you're a fan of the Modo di Bere podcast, please take a moment now, go to Apple Podcasts and leave the show a 5 -star rating and write a review. It really helps with visibility for the show and I really appreciate it. We'll be here when you get back. I like to start the interview by asking my guests about a local drink and a local saying. I'm excited to talk to you about the grapes that are local to both Umbria and Romania, but But let's start with a saying, "Modo di Bire". I bet you know some about horses. Something about horses? Oh, it's so. It is my passion. I started to work with them 13 years ago in Romania. And I was not so interested with the horses before the period. Simply, in Romania, we started to till the old vineyard, the Chaucer's Courage vineyard, with the horses, and I've seen the horses with the plow on the back. So, as my maker and farmer, I said, "Oh, that's interesting !" And so I started to study the horse management, the horse, the working horse, and I was in touch with the French vineyards, with the amish people here in pennsylvania in ohio and so i started also to produce some prototype to work with the horses and after years and years and also with some but accident i've broken twice my legs working with the horses and it happens when you are working with a one tone horse it could happen but anyway I started to produce some prototype and now as we are in Italy, we probably are the leader working with the horses and we are so efficient that it is cheaper to work with the horses instead of the tractors. So we also calculated this with the University in Perugia, university in Siena, that's very interesting. We have a lot of benefits because it's more environmental friendly and also we consume less oil and the energy is renewable, it's more well -chapted with the horses because they just consume, hey, that's it and then it's charming it's also a good promotion for the winery the people likes to see that and the horses are also multifunctional we do not only work with the horses we also arrange some carriage tour in the winery and so michel and the regal Rigolteen has been my winery and we had a nice tour around the vineyards. Oh, I am... I also find the horses very charming. I want to know everything about them. How many do you have? What are the names of some of your favorite horses? I have three horses in Italy. It's Diamante, Bebe, they are about 10 years old, and one younger it's a Pioggia and okay I started to train them seven eight years ago so I was a beginner also the horse was a beginner and during the training I was one horse baby which is my favorite escaped with one huge trunk on the back and I've broken my leg. - Oh my goodness. - Yeah, yes, but, you know, it's, it is difficult to recover the sabbath in Italy. We lost a rabbit to work with the animals, with the horses. In France, they are a bit more user than us in Italy. And here in the United States, you have the amazing and also freaky, the Amish people. you have to consider them an heritage for you because they are keeping this habit to work with with the horses and anyway to recover this habit you have to be stubborn otherwise if you have the first problem and you give up immediately you don't have any results and after seven years we were able to till 40 acres with the four horses. Now I have a small binary, we can manage in Italy 10 acres with the horses and okay it is nice, we love it and it's very relaxing to dress the horses, it's a kind of right to dress the horses and go to work in the vineyard. It's a slow return you cannot compare with the tractors, because with the tractor for instance you can manage two or four actors per day and with the horses you can manage the half. But the quality of the work is much better this is really a pleasure to work with them. How did you get in touch with the Amish people to talk to them about their traditions? Simply turning around in Ohio, in Pennsylvania, then I remember I stopped in a touristic place with the Amish people in close to Berlin in in Ohio and I started to chat with a guy. And I said, oh, I'm an Italian farmer. I work with horses, and we had a good mood together. And we started to talk about horses and hardness, and it was not so difficult. I wasn't in touch with them for a long time. I had a few days to stay in Ohio and Pennsylvania. So, I hadn't days and days of touch. But I was lucky because I was able to drive the Amish horses. They are really well -trained, probably the best one, and you can see that they are in touch with the animals, and also daily, is completely different from or edit. You really seem to have cared a lot about preserving and recovering lost traditions to the point of even putting your body on the line. Let's talk about tradition. When I open up the Plani Archea website, I see beautiful pictures of you and Elena standing in a hole in the ground with the clay amphorae plowing these fields with the horses, crushing the grapes by foot. What is gained by using these methods in place of modern technology? Oh, I think wine, it is not just business or beverage. It's also, it means also tradition, stories. You know, I've seen the wine business a lot. I have 37 years of experience in my business. In the beginning wine was just food, beverage, daily wine, nowadays more hedonistic, so you and the customers you are looking for a lot of things around the bottles. It means the story, the grape, the terroir, and so we want to recover the ancient technology. We have a winery in Romania, we will talk later. Anyway, because we are in close to the Balkanic and Caucasic area, we started to study also the Georgian wine. The emphora underground is a Georgian old ancient technology. It is a 6 ,000 years old technology, So they make this maturated orange wine, kept underground for six months. So we do this in this way. And I made a lot of experience, right, wrong, making the orange wines. At the end, I started to study on the website the Georgian protocols on wine making. And this is why we have this small production of wine made in a Georgian style. That is so interesting. I think those wines are remarkable. How did you choose the name Planyarque? Planyarque is a Latin name. It means "Valley of the Rock" of the castle. And this is the place where San Francis made a historical priest to the beard and about it we have two version one is the official where the guide Saint Francis made this famous priest so thank you God for the nice sky nice birds and blah and blah and the birds state stand silently on the tree listening St. Francis. Then there is also an apocryphal story about him and saying that St. Francis turned around the towns looking for food and money for the poor people and at the end of the tour he got nothing. So he was really angry and going with the birds he said because the human beings are stupid I prefer to talk with you because you are listening me so probably the both stories are true but because we like to think alternative we use this name and also because the Planiarchy the place where the the priests of the birds were done and the praise of the birds? The praise, yeah, the praise to the birds. How do you say? Yeah, yeah. That's Dan. And so it's, we have also vineyard close to this place. This is also another reason because we have this name. What an amazing, what an amazing history. I study local sayings, deiti, modo di dire, and I wonder if you have one to share about horses? Oh, "matto come un cavallo". What is it? "Crazy like a horse, matto come un cavallo". You are crazy like a horse, you are "tu sei matto come un cavallo" because you know, especially you have a bloody stall on the jumps, the race and this is a mode of the deer about the horses. So is this you would say to someone who was being really really rowdy and and running around a lot yeah nice nice I love it how many languages do you speak do you also speak Romanian yes not very good but I speak Romanian I was lazy lazy to learn Romanian in 12 years Roberto can you tell us a little bit about the wine grapes that are local to Umbria in Umbria there are the most famous at this moment are the three grapes. One red grape which is the Sagrantino from Montefarco, the name comes from Sacramento, probably because it was discovered by the monks in Umbria, and then we have the Grechetto which is a white grape, a bit tannic, golden color, and then we have we have the Trebbiano's Pulettino, which is another white grape. And it's totally different from the other Trebbiano, right? Yeah, yeah, you know, it's very famous, the Trebbiano from Tuscany, from Abruzzo. It is not a clone of this Trebbiano, it's completely different, much more complex and fruity. We have some Sogrentino here, right? Shall we taste that together? Yes, why not? It's a quick pleasure. Grazie. You're welcome. Thank you. What is the vintage of this wine? This is 2018\. 2018\. It has a dark color. Really pretty nose and the color is some typical from sagrantino so you have the ruby red with a mix with a tin of brown because the wine is very tannic. The nose is really pretty it's pretty it's it's fairly subtle There's this wonderful freshness to it like just and something a little bit like mushroom. Yeah, really I called Serpentine aroma the dark aroma because it is not so fancy like a fruit team or low or something like that You can smell the underwood smell wet ground hummus I do. I find it truffle. Yeah. Oh, I wish I was eating some truffles right now. With this that would be amazing. Let's see please. It's a good pairing with the with the Saganantino. It could be wild boar with truffle. Excellent. With Saganantino. Life is good, right? Salute. Cheers. Pretty dark palette too. Yes. Serotonin is probably the most tannic wine into the world. It is very important to have quality tannins, otherwise it's undrinkable. And on my experience, if you want a good grape and good tannins, you have to work very well into the vineyard. So it's a natural farming, it's very important. If you use, if you pump the production with a chemical fertilizer, systemical treatments, you have bitter and harsh tannins. So I like to say that to make a good Sagrantino, you have to be first at all a good farmer and then a good when maker. So we, it's much more important what you are doing into the field, into the vineyard instead of the winery. Yeah, the tannins are definitely really present here and I, they kind of linger. I can sort of feel them still in the battle with my mouth a few minutes longer but They're very fine tannins. They're very well integrated with the wine and I can feel the force of them But it's not like they're trying to to rip my tongue apart the way that I'm more unbridled to use a horse term Tannin can be no guys if you're interested in tannic wines Definitely try a sauer -grantina. It's it's a really cool delicious wine. I'm looking at the bottle now too and there's this beautiful drawing of one of the horses. So this, besides wild boar, I feel like, do you think this is kind of the ultimate steak pairing? Also, also brusse it over cooked meat. You know brusse it, brasato? Brasato, no. Yeah, brasato is when you cook the meat for a long time. Oh, braised, braised meat. Yeah, and maybe with wine, spicy, with pepper, truffle, you know, so it pairs very well with the sagrantino. You have a kind of sweetness in the meat, it pairs very well with the with the tannin. I find some darker fruit, but I also find this note of like an espresso almost in the toast. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I would love for you, Roberta, to educate us a bit about vine training. Can you explain the different training methods you use and why you choose them? The trellis, the guillo and the... Oh, yeah, the training of the vineyard. How do you say that in Italian, the vine training? Forme di potatura, the shape of of the plants. Anyway, we are using mainly Cordon and Gullio. They are very popular, but it's very important to divide long pruning. It means Gullio, it could be Sylvaux, and short pruning. Normally it's Cordon, but also Alberello, little tree, because when you have a short pruning You have only two, three buds. And the maturation is similar from the first and the second and the third. You have almost the same sugar and the same acidity. When you are using a long pruning, you could have seven, eight, nine, ten buds. And you have a different quality of grapes from the first buds to the last. The first has high sugar and low acidity. The last one has less sugar and more acidity. So when you harvest all together you have more freshness and fruitiness and this is very useful on the white wine. The craquetto, for instance, we only use the craquetto in the Trapianus palletina, we only use the gullo, even because another difference is the productivity. The red grapes they produce also on the first buds so you can have a short pruning. The white wines they produce on the last buds so you need a long pruning. Anyway the plants likes the vineyard the vine likes the long pruning because it's a kind of plants in it in Italian we call them liana. I don't know how do you call it in English. So it's a long plants and they like to escape. Now we are used to put the plants in only three feet, so it's really too short for a for a vene, but it's okay with you try to adapt the plants to your needs of farming. Thank you so much for explaining that to us. I would love to ask you a little bit more about La Zapata, the winery in Romania. How is the terroir different in the in the Danube Delta than where you farm in Umbria? Let's say in Umbria, we have a Mediterranean climate. The soil is clay calcareous And so we have one complex, say, powerful in Romania. It's completely different because the soil is sandy, limey. And we have also rocks underground, because we are on the matching mountains, which are the oldest mountains in Europe. The climate is continental. anyway it's cold in winter time, it's dry in summer time and the wines are less powerful but much more elegant and when you test my Italian and Romanian wines you feel a big difference. I like it because it means that I pat the terroir because sometimes you the the winemaker the trend is to make the same wine in all around the world so maybe you test the wine coming from I don't know France and Sicily made from the same winemaker and they are similar I think it is wrong we have to respect the terroir we have to extract a personality from the terroir. In Romania what has your experience been like coming in as an outside investor who's not from the area? Let's say there are many investors not so much, not like in Italy, planting vineyard from Romania and from abroad. We tried two had an ethical, solid investment. For instance, when we planted the vineyard, we decided to work with the local people and to use the local material stuff. Our colleagues from Italy, France, Spain, they planted a lot of vineyard using the European funds. And they bought the poles from France, for instance, the plants from Italy. They hired the Italian or Spanish company to plant vineyard mechanically. What we did was to use the poles, for instance, from Transylvania, Romania, the plants from Romania. And then we hired 20 people from the village and we planted together side by side 20 hectares of vineyards. So 90 % of the European funds remained in the territory. So we started also to have a connection with the local people, with the measure and year per year we became the point of meeting for the territory, for the county. I think it is good because it's an ethical way to develop an area. That's so interesting. Tell me a little bit about the wine culture in Romania generally. In the recent years they have no big culture of wine. They have a tradition of production. Many years ago they were the fifth country producing wine. So it means after Italy, Spain, France, maybe Germany, then Cuba, Romania. And they sold mainly the wine in the Eastern country, Russian, but also Cuba, Japan, and they had a long tradition of wine even during the Roman Empire and they also have a tradition of drinkers. At the time during the Roman Empire they in the Roman they made a load saying that they have to destroy vineyards and wineries. It was the first century after Christ. So it means that already the Romanian people had the habit to drink too much wine. Oh, so it was a temperance movement. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, they have vineyards, they have wine. And now they are trying to produce a quality wine. The investors have made them nice wineries. We are just missing in Romania small wing growers and artisan wine wing growers like we are. And especially we are missing, they are missing mainly the personality into the wine. They planted a lot of international grapes like cab, or Marlowe, or Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc, and they didn't work with local grapes like Fethiasca regala, Fethiasca alba, Babesca Fethiasca negra, Grassa di Cottonari. There are many of local grapes. Tell me some more about those grapes. Those sound really interesting. Oh yeah, it's the most important white is probably the Fethiasca regala which is a cross between two grapes and if they did this cross maybe a hundred years ago one is the Fethiasca alba the other one is Grassa di Cottonari which is a kind of of Muscat. Then other interesting grapes are the Bapiasca. We produce the Bapiasca, which is a red grape with a big berry, like a chili jollo, like ganem gamay, and then the Fethiasca negra. Then they have imported a grape from France, the Alicote. You know Alicote is a burgundy grape, it's a secondary grape in burgundy, it's not so important that the quality is soft and not really good, very acid with the citrus aroma. In Romania we are a thousand kilometers south around the burgundy so we have a better, probably terroir for the Ligotea and we produce an excellent one, very fruity, jammy, you can pair very well with the seafood. And in Romania, in my area, we are in the Dobrga, on the Danube Delta, they produce, they make an excellent seafood from the Danube. Let's try this aligoté. How do you say thank you in Romanian? Mursu mesc. Mursu mesc. Mursu mesc. -Mursun mask. -Can I see the bottle? -Da. -Da. -Yes, it's the language in Romania is 80 % Latin and about 20 % Slavic, Russian. -Interesting. I see this beautiful picture of us Heron on the front. It's really nice. Okay, so let's taste this oligotate. I am very big on the local grapes. I think that's really cool. I love it when people will preserve and protect the local grapes and keep them from going extinct. I think the biodiversity is so interesting. The diversity of wines that can be made from these grapes and that's part of the reason why I'm so obsessed with Italian wine, but I try not to be dogmatic in my life and to understand You know things move around grapes move around people move around at some point somebody had to make a new tradition just to take the The wine grapes out of the forest and and start to cultivate them So but this is the when we're speaking about international grapes a lot of times that that that term is used to indicate French grapes that were very popular and then got planted all around the world Yeah, I guess all the Aligotay isn't one of those big popular grapes. As you said, it's a very secondary grape in Burgundy, but it is interesting to me when a grape is taken to a new place and there is something discovered about the terroir that it's really kind of found its home. So I'm really interested to try this Aligotay in short after what you told me. Let's see. I I think I might have still a little sagrantino in my glass, but it's got an interesting It's being down. It is. Yeah. Hmm. What am I finding on the nose? Is it beautiful? You have apple, you have this kind of fruit, ripe fruit. It's a very pungent nose. Oh, okay. I'm I'm got a little bit in my mouth now. That's delicious. I see What you mean? Aligote can be very acidic, but there is a, and I still find that beautiful freshness, but there is so much more ripe fruit. Also yellow fruit like peach apricot. Maybe even some star fruit, like a little bit more tropical fruit almost. It's got a great texture to texture to it. Indeed, thanks to the soil, also the rocky underground for sure is very important or kind of way making. We harvest everything by hand and in cases and we press the whole grapes and so we take care a lot about the quality of the grapes and also we are very very delicate on the winemaking and consider that we use only wild yeast with this wine so it is not a technical wine and it is so clean and the aroma is unfulty just to say that you can through wine and feel threat also in a correct way. - It's very beautiful. There's almost a note of kind of like some tea like on the finish, like a black tea or it's yeah, it's got a really pretty finish. I get some notes of like cherries or even it makes me think of cherry blossoms. It's very, very pretty. There's some beautiful light, lightly floral notes to it. It's really complex. Bravo. - Thank you. - I had no idea when my friend, Michelle, mentioned that you were in town, that I was going to be drinking an oligote from Romania. Thank you so much for bringing this to me. - We are proud also because it was an art effort to start making wine in Romania, when we started we didn't start with a technological place, we built up the winery, we had no electricity in the beginning, just a noisy generator, no water, we just had a tank and so we washed the things in a bucket and anyway We were able to get some prize in this condition. What does it mean? It means that it is important not only the technology, but also the technique. The difference is the technique is your skill, your education, your knowledge, your experience. Technology is very useful because it makes your life easier Sometimes, not every time. So we want to put the human beings in the center of the winery. It is against the mainstreaming, because you know, all the modern management try to take away the people, the human beings out of the production. So we think we have to make one step back and we have to recover ourselves. Having that experience of being forced to work without much technology, besides the horses, what did you learn from winemaking in that way in Romania that you brought back to your production, to your winery in Italy? Oh, making wine is very complex, so you learn from anything. This experience was probably the first thing, okay, I learned to use sources at I bring this knowledge in Italy. About wine, it was important to learn how to work in a delicate way with the grapes to have an high -quality grape, an high -quality wine. So harvesting almost everything by hands to value the people working into the vineyard and so step by step we went ahead to observe the herbs in Romania to observed the soil, it was to grow up continuously in Italy and Romania. During these 12 years, I doubled my experience. I made two harvests in one year, in two completely different places, and so any experience increase your skills, your knowledge, your experience, making wine and not only you learn also you, it was very nice also to know all the ethical groups and not all but a lot of the ethical groups in the Dobroga in the region where we are in Romania it's a really a multi -ethnic place we have 28 ethnical groups over there and so it's a kind of melting pot of people and so I met Russian people, Ukrainian, Lipovian, Macedonian, Gypsy, Romanian, Bulgarian, Italian, Greek so it's crazy and any of those has a different personality. It seems crazy But from all of those ethnic groups, I add something on my knowledge, on my experience. One of the most important are the Georgian, don't forget it. In this place I started to study the Georgian technology, the Georgian protocol. So how to make the orange wine, how to make a long maturation, why you have to make a long maturation three, four, six months long until the springtime and so it's I think I have a wider point of view after this experience so I have to say thank you Romania, thank you Italy because when I'm over there I can watch my Italian winery from a distant point of view. And this is very important. - Oh, that's beautiful. That's definitely what I'm, the kind of knowledge exchange that makes me very happy. I'm so happy that you told us about it. Roberto, thank you so much for coming and speaking with me today and sharing your beautiful wine with us. Could you please spell out the names of your websites for us so that our listeners can connect with you and also put this information in the notes for the episode? - For the Italian website, it's www .planierche .it. And the L -A -S -A -P -A -T -A dot com. Dot com. Dot com for the Romanian website .it for the Italian. So you can see this crazy and freaky Italian guys making wine in a lost place in Romania. I remember when we started to build the winery in the village in the middle of nowhere, because it was not in the village, but in the countryside, they said, "Oh, they have to be crazy." And now, after 12 years, they are looking a lot of people coming in the winery and with a lot of life around us. So, sometime you need to have a vision, you have to be a visionary, and simply you have to have a dream. Crazy like a horse, right? What was that? What was that? Absolutely. What was that saying again? Matto comei un cavallo. Matto comei un cavallo. Okay. Grazie Roberto. Grazie a te. Thank you Roberto. Thank you to all of our listeners and wherever you go and whenever you drink always remember to enjoy your life and never stop learning. Okay. Thank you, Rose. Thank you. where you can also read the blog. Music for the podcast was composed by Arcilia Prosperi and performed by the band O. You can purchase their recordings at oumusic .bandcamp .com Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](https://oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance from [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Spit Like a Wine Pro ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e6-vinitaly-italian-wine-fair-tips/) [ "Dialect is a Luxury" ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e4-peppe-voltarelli/) ### ▷S1E4 Il dialetto è un lusso: Peppe Voltarelli canta in calabrese URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e4-peppe-voltarelli-2/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:33:04.000Z In questo episodio molto speciale il premiato cantante Peppe Voltarelli dimostra di persone il suo lavoro musicale e teatrale in calabrese. Anche Rose Thomas suona una della sua canzoni! Che cosa li fa cantare? Ovviamente "la panza china," per non parlare della bella bottiglia di Cirò DOC da Sergio Arcuri. Non perderti questa bellissima discussione del significato dei dialetti del mondo. Quale dialetto è il più punk rock? Ascolta una tarantella e un monologo arrabiato in Calabrese prima da decidere. La musica Peppe: [https://linktr.ee/peppevoltarelli](https://linktr.ee/peppevoltarelli?ref=mododibere.com) La musica Rose Thomas:[ https://rosethomasbannister.bandcamp.com/](https://rosethomasbannister.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Il vino da Sergio Arcuri: [https://golden-vines.com/producers/sergio-arcuri/](https://golden-vines.com/producers/sergio-arcuri/?ref=mododibere.com) L'omaggio di Peppe a Otello Profazio:[https://italoamericano.org/peppe-voltarelli-singer/](https://italoamericano.org/peppe-voltarelli-singer/?ref=mododibere.com) Più di Roccu u stortu: [https://www.mescalina.it/musica/recensioni/il-parto-delle-nuvole-pesanti-roccu-u-stortu](https://www.mescalina.it/musica/recensioni/il-parto-delle-nuvole-pesanti-roccu-u-stortu?ref=mododibere.com) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)soprattutto nel bene facendo in modo che uscisse la mia anima più profonda e la gente e gli amici che mi circondavano percepiscero questa sorta di caratteristica, un po' come il vino, si sentono le note di una terra e spesso mi diceva "ma tu sei molto attaccato alla tua terra, ma terra, ma non in senso affettivo, proprio in senso fisico, ma non solo appunto in un discorso letterario o filosofico o sentimentale, ma proprio fisico, complessa. Quante lingue parli? Un po' inglese, un po' spagnolo, un po' italiano, un po' francese, un po' calabrese. Benvenuti a modo di bere podcast su pevande locali e detti locali sono la condutrice Rose Thomas Bannister. Sono molto contento di parlare oggi con Peppe Voltarelli. Peppe è un premiato cantante, canta autore e autore dalla bellissima regione Calabria. Dei anni novanta Peppe ha fondato il Grupo Folk Rock, il parto delle nuvole pesanti, ha pubblicato molti album e viaggia in tutto il mondo cantando spesso in dialetto alla brezza. Devo anche dire pepe che mi piace molto il tuo canale YouTube. Stai qui in New York City facendo un nuovo album, come va? Ciao Ross, grazie. Sì, sono qui a New York per registrare un nuovo lavoro con dei musicisti di New York e con un producer italiano che vive in America da vent 'anni, si chiama Simone Giuliani, era un mio desiderio da tanto tempo di lavorare, di collaborare con musicisti di New York, perché mi interessava questo suono tipicamente New Yorkese, di alcuni di loro, il loro stile, il modo di mescolare un po' le culture. Come sapete questo è il parcastele bevande locali e detti locali. Abbiamo qui un vino calabrese, una bottiglia di ciro. Il ciro d 'oxy produce un po' di vino bianco, ma la maggior parte fanno vino rosso e vino rosato da l 'uva Gallioppo. Pepe, assaggiamo insieme il vino del di tuo amico? Sì, sì, è stata grande bottiglia di rosso di sergiarcure, buonissima. Quando ci siamo conosciuti, dovuto per caso, mi ha detto che conosci questo wine maker, no? Sì, sì, perché io vengo da un paese che è molto vicino a Ciro, si chiama Myerto, il mio paese. Ho tanti amici a Ciro, produttori di vino, tra cui Sergio apprezzo molto il loro lavoro e negli ultimi anni stanno cambiando veramente molto l 'idea del vino calabrese e si stanno apprendendo molto al mondo, insomma è molto interessante intorno al vino calabrese, grazie soprattutto a loro modo di lavorare. Il produttore si chiama C 'era il ciro rosso, ho assaggiato anche il suo rosato, trovo molto leggero e copro in equilibrio con notte complesso ma piacevole di fiori secchi come rosa e lila, arance e ciliegia. Il rosero abbiamo bevuto a cena con la sera che ci siamo conosciuti, Il Drossè, no? Ti ricordi? Ha avuto un grande successo la nostra tavola. Grazie, grazie. Grazie per il consiglio. No, sono contento che ti piace. Mi piacerebbe che tu ci insegnassi qualche detti calabrese? Beh, noi in Calabria abbiamo molti detti. C 'è uno che parla appunto molto connesso con la musica che sarebbe un detto che spesso viene condesso anche con il senso del lavoro e dice proprio questo e dice "Panzagginia canta, no camisa yanca" che è un detto che vuol dire per l 'appunto con la pancia piena si canta meglio che non basta una camicia purita, una camicia bianca, quindi è interessante, è simpatico. Cosa c 'è di speciale nel dialetto Calabrese? Siano suoni o grammatica, ritmo? Il dialetto Calabrese è molto, da questo punto di vista, paragonato agli altri dialetti italiani, è un dialetto molto ancestrale, molto crudo, è anche molto difficile anche da scrivere secondo me, è un dialetto assolutamente di tradizione orale e poi ci sono moltissimi dialetti calabrese, nel senso che ce ne sono almeno 100 diversi in tutta la regione. Quindi, non so, il dialetto della mia zona, della Ionica Cosentina è diversissimo dal dialetto dialetto della Sila, è diversissimo il dialetto del Catanzarese, quindi ogni zona c 'è una propria peculiarità. La scommessa forte che abbiamo fatto noi all 'inizio del 1990, quello di scrivere canzoni in dialetto con Abrese, è stata una scommessa dettata dal desiderio di arrivare a questa dialetta più gente possibile e fare in modo che la nostra lingua venisse percepita all 'esterno come un fatto diciamo con una valenza poetica importante, oltre che un fatto etnico diciamo comunque locale, ma proprio come una valenza poetica e questa cosa qua è stata una bella scommessa anche vincente perché da quel momento in cui noi abbiamo iniziato c 'è stata una rivalutazione anche proprio della nostra lingua sia nella musica ma anche nel teatro, nella poesia, all 'inizio degli anni 2000 è successo un po' questa sorta di della lingua da Bres. Raccontaci la tua esperienza con il dialetto da giovane? Beh sì, io ho sempre parlato in dialetto in famiglia e a scuola come tutti noi del resto. E poi chiaramente quando sono andato a Borogna il dialetto per me è diventato uno strumento per socializzare con chi veniva dalla mia terra, ma anche con chi non veniva dalla mia terra, quindi comunque uno strumento che mi ha caratterizzato, che mi ha dato questa connotazione forte nel bene o nel male, ma soprattutto nel bene facendo in modo che uscisse la mia anima più profonda e la gente e gli amici che mi circondavano percepiscero questa sorta di caratteristiche, un po' come il vino, si sentono le note di una terra e spesso mi dicevano "ma tu sei molto attaccato alla tua terra, ma non in senso affettivo, proprio in senso fisico, hai i propri piedi nella terra, quando tu parli si sente che hai i piedi nella terra". È interessante perché alcune volte non ci raccogiamo di quanto siamo legati alla terra, ma non solo appunto in un discorso letterario o filosofico o sentimentale, ma proprio fisico. Cioè fare delle cose che sono assolutamente spontanei spontaneo raccontano la tua terra e quindi e quindi a Bologna sta cosa è diventata un po per gioco una caratteristica che poi mi ha portato a scrivere sempre in dialetto e mi ha fatto rendere consapevole di quanto questa lingua potesse aiutarmi a fare il lavoro che facevo cioè a scrivere a cantare a esprimere dei sentimenti in una lingua ancestrale anche un po marginale rispetto perché il calabrese ovviamente come tu sai non è una lingua internazionale come il napoletano come il siciliano che sono lingue con chi conosce in tutto il mondo. La nostra lingua è un po più marginale quindi ancora di più per certi versi mi sento sempre un portabandiera, un patriota di questa lingua, di questa poesia qua. In maniera molto aperta ovviamente, non in maniera chiusa, ma aperta verso il mondo, verso gli altri e sempre con grande desiderio di farsi contaminare e di farsi attraversare. Dopo devi che raccontarmi la storia la tua esperienza nel Bronx, a di considerare quanto lontano può viaggiare Calabrese del dialetto primo, ci suonereste in una canzone Calabrese e spiegare le parole? Sì, questa si chiama Stacittà, è un brano che ho scritto negli anni 2010 2010\. In quegli anni mi sono trasferito a Berlino per un anno e ho vissuto insomma a Roma, a Berlino, a Napoli ed è nata questa canzone. Sbummatiketataz Tic -tic -tic -tic... Sbummatiketataz Sbummatiketataz Quante cose buone, quante vase, troppe vase Quante nette, belle nette, male mente Perissate sa città Perissate sa città In un voglionento, un fazzlento, un di crento, un toc nento, un guardenento, un paginento Perissata esacittà, perissata esacittà Quanta gente non si sa Che guarda in basso e capirà Quante belle sagittà, quante belle starca, quante forti, quante storti, quante sporche sagittà, quante belle sagittà, quante belle starca, quante forti, quante storti, quante morte sagittà, shh, boom, tic -tac -tac, shh boom, tic -tac -tac, shh boom, tic -tac -tac, shh boom, tic -tac -tac, shh boom, tic -tac -tac, shh boom, tic -tac -tac, shh boom, tic -tac -tac, shh boom, tic -tac -tac, shh boom, tic -tac -tac, shh boom, tic -tac -tac, shh boom, tic -tac -tac, shh boom, tic -tac -tac, shh boom bravo, non se come si dice in italiano la percussione Si sarebbe una percussione con la bocca. Dimmi che trovi in dialetto calabrese del ritmo. Ma guarda la musica, allora il dialetto ha questa grande possibilità di essere cantato meglio dell 'italiano, perché è una lingua con più, diciamo, Facoltà di essere manipolato, di essere tagliato, di essere trasformato. C 'è una lingua aperta il dialetto, quindi è molto più musicale dell 'italiano secondo me. E in questo senso è anche una lingua, siccome è una lingua tale, quindi non è scritta, è anche, come dire, la puoi anche riscrivere. C 'è una lingua che vive comunque un 'attualità sempre, una trasformazione, una lingua che si trasforma giorno dopo giorno, molto di più che l 'italiano, che c 'è delle regole molto più forti, che ha una struttura molto solida, una storia molto importante. Mentre il nostro dialetto è una lingua anche un po' bastarda da un certo punto di vista. C 'è un po' che è pronta a trasformarsi in tante cose diverse. E' bello cantare in dialetto perché ti dà la possibilità di avere un grande ritmo dentro. E quindi non so. Vantiamo, avanti, avanti, avanti, avanti, avanti. Ia amavanti, ama rete, ama rete, ama rete, ama rete, ama rete. Ia ama rete, ama rete, ama rete, ama rete. Per dirti questa cosa in italiano sarebbe difficile da far suonare così, no? Perché in italiano sarebbe "Andiamo avanti, andiamo avanti, andiamo avanti, andiamo avanti, andiamo avanti, andiamo avanti". Andiamo indietro, andiamo indietro, andiamo indietro. È complicato da fare insomma. Quindi però in dialetto dice a questa anche questa velocità che è quasi come uno slang, no? Sì. Per dire, in italiano si dice Restiamo fermi, no? Stiamo fermi. Fermi? No? Stamma fermi. Stamma fermi. Stamma fermi. Stamma fermi. Stamma fermi. Stamma fermi. Stamma fermi. Stamma fermi. Stamma fermi. Mh. No, no fermi. Fermi. Quindi questo "mh" è una roba che suona da solo, c 'è un sono indipendente. Quindi c 'è Come dire, in dialettia è una lingua che c 'è molto da raccontare a livello fonetico, proprio come sonorità, come sfumature rispetto all 'italiano. Stiamo fermi. Mi sento come un vocabulario molto musicale. Beh, io sei cosa, suonando spesso da solo, allora sono abituato a fare sia la parte dell 'accompagnamento. E quindi faccio… Cioè, sono abituato ad essere, come dire, autosufficente, no? Quindi faccio sia la parte cantata che la parte melodica melodica strumentale. Anche la visarmonica con la bocca, posso parlare. Sì, anche prima entra la lingua, già è cala presse, no? Sì, sì. E' una lingua fatta, capito. Non c 'ha bisogno di... Cioè, io andai nel 2017 in Madagascar a fare una tournée e collaboravo con questi due musicisti al Madagascar in cui ho dovuto spiegare qual era questa canzone "Yamavante" che erano fatta di tre parole "Yamavante", "Yammer Red" e "Stamo ferma". Allora li abbiamo tradotte in malgascio nella lingua del E lei abbiamo cantato. Ed era perfetto, no? Se vedi anche su YouTube c 'è questo rapper di Antananarivo, no? Che fa "iamavanti, amavanti, amavanti, amavanti, amavanti, amavanti, amavanti" E traduce in malgascio e c 'è la stessa potenza, stessa energia, no? Per questo il dialetto è una cosa internazionale, no? Riesce ad arrivare molto prima di una lingua come l 'italiano, che ha comunque una mediazione storica, grammaticale, molto più complessa. Quante lingue parli? Un po' inglese, un po' spagnolo, un po' italiano, un po' francese, un po' calabrese. La gente lo chiamava Colapisce, perché stavano amare come un pisce. D 'un dibini per non sapia nessuno, forse era figlio di l 'udionettuno. O co' la lumeregna scandacchiare, su quali pedamento tu si sosteni con la pisci currieva ma io torno ma è sta con la pisci currieva così si è tamare con la pisci e D 'ingialonna subito sparisce Ma dopo un po' coccista novità Allora è niente con la piscita Ma i stalli terri vostri Stanno sopra tre pilastri E l 'ho fatta sai tremendo Uno già si sta rumpendo Ho destino mio infelice Che sventura mi predice Che anciorreco mai a fare solo tu mi posso arbari con la pisci curria e vache vai attorno ma questa con la pisci curria e vache la la la la... la la la... la la la... -questa è la, Questa è la legenda di Colapesce, una canzone che parla di questo pescatore che si butta in mare e non riemerge più perché è rimasto a sostenere una delle tre colonne che arreglano la Sicilia. È una vecchia legenda che si trova anche sul libro "La FIAB ITALIANE di Dall 'Ocalvino, è un pezzo di ottello profazio che io ho rifatto, ho profazio questo cantastorio e calabrese. Raccontaci della tua decisione di cantare in dialetto? Io ho deciso di cantare in dialetto perché era una cosa più immediata che io potessi fare, c 'è una cosa più diretta, più a più credibile e quindi ho iniziato a cantare in calabrese per gioco negli anni '90, all 'inizio degli anni '90, '91\. E ho rullato, ho rullato, ho gridao, ho gridao perché eravamo un gruppo punk folk di Tarantella Punk. Poi ho avuto un incontro molto importante con un regista teatrale, con cui abbiamo messo in scena un lavoro che siamo a Rocco Storto. Questo regista siamo a Fulio Cauteruccio, che il mio maestro, il mio amico, è con lui e abbiamo fatto le musiche di questa pista teatrale, di questa recita, di questo spettacolo e lì mi sono reso conto per la prima volta di quanto la mia lingua era importante da un punto di vista sociale, da un punto di vista storico, da un punto di vista emotivo, poetico e da lì ho cominciato a cambiare anche il mio modo di la mia percezione della lingua stessa, quindi un po' ecco la consapevolezza di avere in mano uno strumento importante, come era la lingua calabrese, che tuttora è la mia lingua principale delle canzoni. Anche questa idea di fare un album a New York con canzoni calabresi fa parte un po' di questa follia, l 'idea che ci siano dieci musicisti di New York che si relazionano con delle canzoni scritte In Calabrese per me è una cosa molto bella, molto poetica, è molto bella anche da raccontare ai nostri figli, no? Una volta sono andato a New York e abbiamo cantato delle canzoni in Calabrese in uno studio di Lower East Side, nel Mitico East Side Sound Studio, con un grande ingegnere del suono, Marco Urselli, e le canzoni erano tutte la Bresa e poi uno chiede "ma di che parlavano?" "Ah, parlavano di quello, parlavano di quest 'altro". Non era l 'ora di sentire, no? Abbiamo terminato le riprese, le registrazioni e adesso abbiamo fare il mix. Ok. Perché ci sono batterie, chitarre, contrabasso, violini, fiati, clarinet, piano Pianoforte, è l 'auto -filzamento. Forse è un esempio di suonare con noi nel nostro appartamento con molti strumenti, no? No, speriamo, sì. Vorrei dire. Amo la storia del concerto in Bronx, per i nostri ascoltatori. abbiamo registrato primo l 'intervista in inglese, è una storia che mi ha detto, è importante. Sì no, è la prima volta che venne a New York nel 2002, ovviamente ero felicissimo di cantare a New York, era questo tour di due settimane e la prima sera è In un posto nel Bronx, nella East Tremont Avenue, c 'erano un sacco di persone e sono salito sul palco e ho detto "hello everybody, I am Peppe from Italy" e nessuno fiatava, c 'era un silenzio tremendo, quasi gelo, no? Poi ho pensato l 'ha sbagliato la cento, forse era sbagliato qualche parola e quindi sono ritornato e ho detto "Hello everybody, I'm Peppe from Italy, from South Italy" Silenzio, anche lì nessuno parlava. E finché uno, un signore si è alzato in piedi e ha detto "Parla Calabrese" ed erano 250 persone di cosenza che erano emigrate in America negli anni 50 e volevano assolutamente che io parlasse in italiano e comunque in dialetto soprattutto e cantassi per loro. E lì è stato un bel momento, un impatto molto forte in cui mi sono reso conto di quanto certe volte il mondo è piccolo, è molto piccolo. Quindi bisogna conoscerà assolutamente il repertorio Folk che ti può salvare la vita, come quella sera mi salvò a me. Sono d 'accordo. Per me mi interessa, possiamo parlare delle diverse tarantelle? Ma sì, guarda, noi devo dirti io ho avuto sempre un approccio molto, diciamo, non filologico al folk music. Quindi io sono arrivato al folk da rocker, da punk rocker. Poi piano piano mi sono reso conto collaborando con altri musicisti, anche nel mio stesso gruppo molto bravi, frequentando i folk festival in tutta Italia ho visto che Buglia c 'era per esempio la pizzica, che in Campania, in Napoli c 'è la Tamuriata e che in Calabria c 'è la Tarantella che può essere anche molto diversa, dalla Spromonte, dalla Zona Regina, dalla Zona Della Sila. L 'unica cosa che mi è rimasta un po' in presso di queste grandi differenze era l 'approccio diciamo violento della Tarantella c 'è l 'approccio quasi grudo, non mediato da nessun tipo di tecniche di bravura, è una cosa molto ancestrale quasi animalesca. E questa era bella perché è la cosa più vicina al punk che c 'era, mentre per esempio sia la pizzeria che la tamoriata hanno Comunque una finezza, un 'elaborazione molto speciale, io ho sempre trovato che invece l 'Atlantea Calabrese sia una cosa molto irreverente, forse sbaglio da un punto di vista o storico musicale, insomma, però comunque io sento questo fatto che da noi l 'approccio alla musica folk è molto violento, molto duro e quindi una delle sfide che ho posto in essere nel mio lavoro è stato sempre quello di riuscire magari anche a scrivere delle canzoni d 'amore in dialetto, scrivere delle ballate che potevano essere un o la parte dolce della nostra cattiveria, non so se ci sono riusciti, ma ci sto provando. Ok, play us a tarantella. campane sono, attenta a chi neti, stappici nemmo quando a me cominciate ranna fera, tutti poti accantare sa canzone quando a me cominciate ranna fera, attenta a chi neti, stappici nemmo Questa è il titolo di questa canzone, "Raggia", che sarebbe come "Arabia", "Arrage". Allora, parla in un calabrese arrabbiato E' dura, questo è un pezzo dello spettacolo Rock 'n 'Storto. Dimitri, è questo spettacolo? Era un soldato calabrese sul front della Prima Guerra Mondiale. È un soldato che raccontava la maledizione della guerra, della trincea e lo faceva tutto in dialetta. E noi abbiamo realizzato le musiche di questo disco, di questo spettacolo, e abbiamo fatto più di 150 replica in tutta Italia, 150 spettacoli in cinque anni, e ha avuto molto successo. Ha scritto Francesco Suriano, il registra interpretera Fulvio Cauteruccio, accompagnia Krypton, e noi eravamo, il parto una pesante eravamo le musiche dal vivo, e io avevo scritto tre canzoni, è un bel lavoro, che mi ha insegnato tanto questa cosa. Ma la bellezza del dialetto è che riesce ad arrivare anche senza capirlo, cioè il dialetto funziona perché capisci il mondo in cui nasce, anche il nostro spettacolo Rocco Storto era tutto atto tutto completamente in dialetto calabrese e quando noi recitavamo a Udine, a Torino, a Varese, a Milano, le persone che non erano calabrese ovviamente non capivano, però capivano tutto. Cioè si capiva tu, si capisce capisce È fazzesca? Dime della idea dell 'un dialetto del mondo. Ma io penso di Sì, c 'è un livello di comunicazione poetico molto forte nel dialetto e in tutte le lingue native, tutte le lingue originarie, c 'è questa potenza dell 'accent, della parola che riesce a trasmettere l 'emozione più della grammatica, più della scrittura, è una questione proprio tribale, il dialetto è tribale come se fosse un dialetto in un luogo dove non hanno ancora inventato la scrittura, non ci sono ancora i libri, quindi in questo senso il c 'è un potente, c 'è un potente, molto potente. Possiamo provare qualcosa, perché il mio italiano non va molto bene, bene, bene, bene, bene, bene a stanotte, sto un po' strana forse, possiamo provare, tu parli in dialetto, possiamo vedere se capisco. Sì, va bene. Sì. E' stasera, mi ha trovato in trasmettere la situazione a New York, con un parebbe che deve vino, un po' che pane, oggi. Stava veramente di lusso, una questione proprio di lusso. Ok. Capisco, capisco! Sì, no, capisco, capisco! Quando sei arrivato in New York, qualcosa del luce, qualcosa del luce e qualcosa del pane. No? Sì? O no? Sì, sì. No, noi siamo trovati con lo pano, uvino, l 'oglio, la situazione è il lusso. Il lusso. Il lusso è "luxury". Lusso. No, Lusso. Lusso. Lusso. Lusso? Come si dice in italiano, in inglese lusso. Lusso. Non lo so. Lusso è non è come ricchezza. Ok, lusso. Lusso. Ok, pane, vino, olio, amici, musica, dialetto, lingua. Un 'etica potete che potete volire. Possiamo provare, altra cosa, Peppe. Può descrivere l 'appartamento quando stiamo a incontracci? Sì, in un bello palazzo, quando arrivo c 'è uno grande corredoio, c 'è uno portiere, uno campare che ti spiega dove devi ripettersi per il primo piano, il secondo piano, F, F, F, F1, FD, FEC, 1, 2, B, C, portato di tutto, non sa che edisca, non sa che edisca remori, tiene libre, libre, libre, libre, libre. E poi c 'è una cattura di 50 giliproteghende in libro. Che si chiama? Come si chiama? Carlos. Carlos. Carlos Garcia Imaduro. Carlos Garcia Imaduro. Presidente, onorario. Capisci. È bello. Capisci il nostro gato. Nostro gato enorme. Sì, siamo qui nel... un posto in New York con i libri, come si dice "album"? Dischi. Dischi. Vinile. Anni vinile. Vinile? Vinile. Vinile. Venniglia. Venniglia. No, no, Venniglia. No, no, Venniglia, Venniglia. Sì, Peppe, che ti capisco meglio in dialetto. È buono. Più che italiano, più che quando sono stanca. Forse è perché mi ha avuto di studiare, la lingua, forse un 'idea di lavoro, come una macchina, di capire italiano quando cambiamo al dialetto. Credo che è più facile di capire. Credo che è possibile che questa idea che è - Il lusso del dialetto. - Sì, il lusso di... Salute. - Salute con Ciro. - È bello il lusso del dialetto. Un detto mio, in modo di dire... - Salute. - Ciaso. Allora, Il nome del tuo gruppo, delle anni '90, il parto delle nuvole pesanti, mi ricordo di una canzone mia prima della questa intervista non ho idea di fare musica in questo progetto, ma quando mi spiega prima nel nel intervista inglese mi sento di condividere questa canzone allora questa canzone si chiama Iowa Iowa è un stato del Midwest di Stato Uniti e a questo momento di scrivere questa canzone per E era un momento di pensare le cose del posto del posto Midwest a Euceli Euceli, the barn, the blackbird, the windmill Se c 'è una persona che studia inglese è possibile di ascoltare interviste inglese per più informazioni della canzone. Certo, certo. I could sing about addiction, I could sing about destructive love I could sing about a red -winged black bird and I would I could sing about ♪ I could sing about lust ♪ ♪ I could sing about the shiny silver roof ♪ ♪ Of a barn in Iowa ♪ ♪ I could sing about conflict, I could sing about blood I could sing about the sad women on the hills in Iowa I could sing about the judgement, I could sing about religion I could sing about the heavy rain clouds that hang over Iwo Red wings, black birds, shiny Silver sand with milk Heavy rains are coming ♪ Wings, black birds, sad women ♪ ♪ Heavy rains are coming over ♪ (upbeat music) \[Music\] Red waves shining silver, Sideway milk, Heavy rains are coming, Red waves shining But when the heavy rains are coming Heavy rains are coming Heavy rains are coming Heavy rains are coming Are coming E' la mia marito nella seconda chitata, grazie Bob Bannister, Bob Bannister, ladies and gentlemen. Grande Bob. Ti piace mia canzone? Molto bella. Grazie, è un scambio dei posti, della Iowa Brasca, Iowa, Calabria, Sicilia, tutti i posti. Grazie, grazie mille Peppe per il tempo per parlare con me di quasi tempo in molti lingui. Grazie, grazie a te. Peppe, hai fatto tanto musica, dove possono andare i nostri ascoltatore per seguirti e a quesistare la tua musica? Sì, allora c 'è il mio sito che è PepeVoltarelli .eu dove potete trovare tutti gli album, i concerti, tutti gli spazi social oppure potete seguirmi appunto su Instagram, su Facebook, su Twitter PepeVoltarelli, il mio hashtag. Sì, metterò anche tutte le informazioni nelle notte dell 'episodio, grazie mille a Peppe Voltarelli e a tutti i nostri ascoltatori, grazie, grazie per insegnarmi dal dialetto Calabrese, grazie, grazie a tutti, sì, sì, sì, sono "I'm persuaded". Sono persuasa. Sì, sono persuasa della... come... la luce, la luce. Il lusso. Il lusso del dialetto. Il lusso del dialetto. Cos 'è il titolo? Il lusso del dialetto, grazie. Il titolo, grazie, grazie, grazie per la musica, per tutto quel lavoro. Ovunque tu vada e qualunque cosa tu beva. Ricorda di goderti la vita e di non smettere mai di imparare. E' se la chiusura? La frase finale. Puoi trovare modo di bere in Blogspot, Tiktok, Instagram e YouTube. Se ami il progetto, puoi diventare sostenitori del programma su Patreon e accedere a più contenuti esclusivi ed educativi. Le informazioni sul www .molodibere .com. La musica è stata composta da Ercilia Prosperi per O. Puoi ascoltarli su www .ou .music .bandcamp ¿Veo bajo el brazo, vayas o qué? Permanece dejándose llevar Un otro, se engañando Se déjase para ese mismo La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto, registrato, e montato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Steve Silverstein ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷ S1E4 Dialect is a Luxury: Peppe Voltarelli sings in Calabrese URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e4-peppe-voltarelli/ Last updated: 2026-08-26T03:25:00.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e4-peppe-voltarelli-2/) Peppe Voltarelli is a songwriter and actor who travels all around the world singing in Calabrese, the Calabrian dialect. He and Rose Thomas taste a wine from the Cirò DOC. They discuss moving from Cirò to Bologna, and from Nebraska to NYC. They swap sayings, and both Peppe and Rose Thomas perform live songs! Peppe demonstrates how the tarantella rhythm changes from region to region all over the south of Italy, and shows how the spiky—*spigoloso*—Calabrian dialect is perfect for expressing that you are not joking around. Don't miss this delicious episode. Peppe's Music: [https://linktr.ee/peppevoltarelli](https://linktr.ee/peppevoltarelli?ref=mododibere.com) We were drinking a wine by Sergio Arcuri:[https://golden-vines.com/producers/sergio-arcuri/](https://golden-vines.com/producers/sergio-arcuri/?ref=mododibere.com) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3p6AOnrW%5Fa/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3p6AOnrW%5Fa/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CqUhTeoDKl1/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CqUhTeoDKl1/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > [ View this post on Instagram ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3gKfovJOi%5F/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) > > [A post shared by 🍷Modo di Bere Podcast/Travel Show about Drinks + Dialect 🇺🇸🇮🇹 (@mododibere)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3gKfovJOi%5F/?utm%5Fsource=ig%5Fembed&utm%5Fcampaign=loading) Read more about Peppe's Tribute to the Italian folk singer Otello Profazio: [https://italoamericano.org/peppe-voltarelli-singer/](https://italoamericano.org/peppe-voltarelli-singer/?ref=mododibere.com) Learn more about that Sicilian folk tale in the book Peppe mentions by Italo Calvino: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian\_Folktales](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian%5FFolktales?ref=mododibere.com) This is the Russian songwriter Peppe mentioned, [Vladimir Vysotsky](https://www.pushkinhouse.org/blog/2019/4/10/vladimir-vysotsky-the-greatest-russian-singer-songwriter-youve-never-heard-of?ref=mododibere.com) Hear more music by Rose Thomas Bannister: [https://rosethomasbannister.bandcamp.com/](https://rosethomasbannister.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) **Expand for auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript And everything is okay, you can talk in Italian, of course, everybody else is speaking Italian. But when you get angry, and you are a little bit angry, and you make something different of tune with your voice, you are gonna talk in dialect. Because this is moment where they understand that you are not joke, that It's something more serious, no? And this was the game we played with our friend, with the band. We became the first band in Italy who played Tarantella punk, was a Tarantella is the rhythm from Calabria. - Now I am curious about two things. I want to hear some angry Calabrese, and I want to hear it Tarantella. Pepe is an award -winning singer, songwriter, and actor from the Southern Italian region of Calabria. In the 90s, he founded the folk rock band El Pardo della Nuvola e Peçanti. He has released many albums. He travels all over the world, very often singing in the Calabrian dialect. Pepe, I also want to mention that I had a fantastic time on your YouTube channel. There are so many great music videos and cool performances. Welcome. Thank you. So you're here in New York working on a new album. Please tell me how about this project? How is it going in the studio? Yeah, I'm here because I have this great dream since I was very young to have a record year to work with the New Yorker musicians. And I found this situation now with this producer called Simone Giuliani, who works on the band, and finally we got these new songs, and I'm very happy to be here. That's great. We were talking about the name of your old band, and I realized that I didn't quite understand the name. Could you explain for our English listeners, il parto delle nuvole pesanti? Probably is the birth of heavy clouds and it means something very close to something that will burn and heavy clouds mean something about the big the tempest, you know, I don't know. Big storm is coming. Because we make music very with a lot of energy, especially in live shows. That sounds amazing. As you know, this is the podcast for local drinks and local sayings. Pepe, we have a local drink already. We are here drinking chiro. If you're listening from the United States, when you visit your independent wine retailer, if you're lucky enough that they stock a wine from Calabria, it's probably chiro. The chiro DOC, a DOC is an officially recognized quality wine region in Italy, does make some white wine from the Greco Bianco grape, but most of their wines are reds and rosés or rosatos, as they call them in Italy, made from this delicious red grape called Gallioppo. Let's let's taste this wine together. We we met by chance guys in a wine shop And you told me that you and this wine maker Sergio, our curry are actually friends. Yeah. Yeah, we are friends My town is very close to Chiro to the city of wine in Calabria and Sergio is one of the best producer in the city So let's taste this together. It's the 2018 vintage. So this is the red chiro. He does make a delicious risotto. Yeah, what do you think? I don't know. For me, it's very special because it's the sound of my land. It's the taste of my land. So I know what I'm drinking. It's very... Tell a lot of things about our land. Yes, definitely. really the, the spirit of this whole project is to find these stories in a glass of wine or a piece of language. I am, you know, speaking of tasting notes for people who have never tried a Chiro before, you know, I'm finding this beautiful light in color wine. Yeah, yeah. If I, if I was doing a blind taste before putting it up to my nose, I might think like a Nebiolo, like a lighter in color, right from the color, just from the color alone. alone, but I'm finding some like dried flowers, like roses, and maybe even lilacs, bright acidity, notes of oranges, sour cherry, and this dried herbs like Timo, thyme, some tannins, for sure, but nothing crazy, just a little light touch of tannin, nice long finish, refreshing, very pretty. - Yeah, the point is that our wine for a long time was considered a very strong wine with a very hard soul taste. But now in the last 20 years, I think that they're gonna make a new kind of project about the wine. So we are going to make some wine that you can use and you can taste and you can live in a different situation. So I am now I'm curious. I'm here interviewing you as a musician who sings in the Calabrese dialect but I'm curious about this. I wonder is it a change in style or I mean for our listeners with the wine a lot of Italian wines are famous, the reds, for a lot of tannin and a lot of acid, both. And you can do something with a tannic wine, you can age it for a long time, wait for the tannins to chill out, but there's been this realization in, you know, over the decades to pick the wine at the perfect, pick the grapes at the perfect day, to get the tannins ripe in the same way that the grapes are ripe and, you know, as technology changes. So I'm wondering if it's a technology change or making a style lighter wines. These are all questions. I mean, you told me about the the general move towards like a more refreshing versatile style. Yeah, I think that the great challenge of our wine and of course of our culture in general is to became something that people can understand, that people can share without prejudice, so Our story is very, it's very long, you know, it's very, very long in and the old, the old time. So for, for our cultural wine is something that has been present in our family since before we were, we was born. So this is the reason because we have to recognize this kind of thing that we have inside to, to the world that is changing so it's important to it's something that like I can I can explain you about dialect you know our dialect is very is very first for someone is very hard to explain because it's not like a Sicilian or Neapolitan that are very musically you know our dialect calabrese is very is very you know, Spigoloso. Spigolosa. Yeah, I was going to ask you about the, what sets it apart, the sounds or the grammar, anything you can explain. I'm so interested. Yeah, but also the way as you talk, the way you move, the way the energy you give in You know, you need to give to people some instrument to understand better what are you doing. And this is the great challenge I do with my music, and writing in Calabrese dialect today is a great challenge for me, because I want that people, I would like that people to understand and discovered my land with my songs and this is the same thing about the wine because if your wine I think can be shared in a table in very long distance you can tell a lot of story of your land with your work and this is the work that they are doing in the last 20 years with this small producer, that they are going to study a new way to stay together, to be convivial, to be in the world, not only in our table. I'm actually really interested in the wines of Calabria. I just think it's a fascinating region. I've never been. I hope to visit soon. Yeah, please. Yeah, so we've talked a little bit about the story from the wine, this sense of the land. I wonder if you could teach us a few, a few moro di dire, a few sayings from the Calabrian dialect before we move into the music. (speaking in foreign language) (laughing) (speaking in foreign language) Well, we talked about one when we met by chance. We met by chance in a wine shop and we're exchanging sayings, so I don't know if you have a proverbial that comes to mind. About wine, yeah. Oh, it can be about anything. Anything, not only wine, yes. Yes, there's one nice "Panzaggina canda, no camisa yanca", è interessante. È significato che quando ti fai, puoi cantare, ma non quando hai solo l 'acqua bianca, l 'acqua bianca per la partita. Tu puoi avere... Tu puoi avere... "Panzagina sing, no camisa yanga." Oh, oh my gosh. I don't know if I explained the meaning. What is the literal meaning of just the phrase? That you have to eat? That's, I think that the appearance is not the way that can give you the right relationship but you have to have some time inside something inside that can give you energy and story and stuff to tell I see not the white shirt no not appearance oh I love this I'm actually going to use this the next time that so for our listeners I'm a folk musician as well from the American West Midwest Midwest and in fact the the In fact, the name of Pepe's old band, I think they're maybe a song of mine that I would like to share with Pepe and with you. So I thought only he would play, but now I have a song about a storm coming that I think you might enjoy. But when I perform, which I do as often as I can, there are often many things to take care of before you go on to the stage. I think maybe next time I'll, I'll wonder if I've eaten some bread more than about my outfit, about my clothes. So, as I think this is better, I think this is better. Yeah, it's more about the soul, the soul of the person than the fancy clothes. Is this, is this correct? So that's something that it's connected with the reason why you are, you are singing. And the reason sometimes is when you are happy and you sing. For our culture it's a little bit different maybe with the blues but when you're already here you can sing better. Well let's jump right in. Can you play us please a song in the Calabrese dialect and then maybe explain after the language. Before the song or just uh Well, let's see. That's a good thought. You've spent many more years sharing dialect than me. Do you want to start with the words? Sing a song and then explain after. non c 'ha c 'ha d 'uba o il lundamù, dall 'acqua, la terra lontana chi ne c 'ha dove chi ne cammina fa freddellite manimane l 'evitmica che Che fatta rimane Chi sarà vita rimane? Chi seru core rimane? Chi seru sanghe rimane? Chi seru vita rimane? Chi seru core rimane? Umare l 'igarucona a un mette d 'arriva, come se stai qua a navarco un arriva. Usula quando te cocia da brittare carne, facci nivore è cappella pesante era terra caccivola chiana umarte sincette porta lontana chi sarà vite rimarnare chi sarà uccore rimarnare chi sarà sangue Quisera y vi, te rimar, nara. Quisera y vi, te rimar, nara. Quisera y corer, nara. Me cuana de colla tu sentem tiri, paso pe paso cuane camin, (singing in foreign language) (singing in foreign language) Bravo! Thank you, thank you. It's a beautiful song. Thank you, this is called "Marinae" It's a song about sailors of my town and I wrote this song in 2010 for my album "Ultima Notte Malastrana" last night in Malastrana. It's an album dedicated to this beautiful city that's Prague, where I play a lot of time. And in this album there is "Marinae" and with this album I won a prize called "The Premio Tenko" as the best album in dialect from Italy in 2010\. And I'm very proud This is because it's the first album in Calabrian dialect that won this prize. That's amazing. Thank you. I would love for you to take us through some of the lyrics. Would you talk to us a little bit about the lyrics of that song? Yeah, the song is telling the story of the relationship between these people with the sea and with their work And how they still think that the sea is like a big friend, but also it can be a big enemy. So the work in the sea is always very strange, because first time you have to respect this big brother. And the lyrics And the day that we do, when they grow up, healing among, when it's still night and when it's still dark and they go inside, they, so I stay with this friend of mine. I spent time with them when I was at university in Bologna and something that hit me is probably this kind of expression that they have in the face when we start to go in the sea for work and I tried to put in the song this kind of vibration that they give to me as I was a student and they were workers so this is a big difference and I tried to put in in the lyrics this kind of big experience for me to see people that love their job and still after 30 40 years every day they renovate this this respect for the for nature for for the sea for the work and for the life for the life That's beautiful. I love I love the ideas I'm wondering if you can take just maybe one small piece of the dialect and compare it for us to Italian to show the difference in the sounds Yeah the first the first part of the song say Umare suka suka rosangua remarenare riporta un saccio a duvo, la città prende il sangue dei marinai e li porta in un sudova. è molto strano in italiano perché il mare, il mare succhia il sangue ai marinai ma non sarebbe succhia but "il mare prende il sangue dei marinai e li portano su doa." It's very special the difference between dialect and Italian, because when you talk in dialect it seems to be something that have no filter. And when you try to translate in Italian, you need to translate as another language so you have to find the special word to tell this it's not it's not simply let literally not not a straight yeah there are things that you feel that you can express in your in the dialect that you wouldn't it would be a different yeah yeah something Italian doesn't work and It looks like it's not poetic stuff in Italian. - Can you talk a little bit about your experience when you were young with the dialect? Like, yeah, please tell me how you became so interested as is this something you spoke a lot with your family or was it everywhere? - But we talk in dialect in school and family and everywhere. And when I arrived to university, Bologna is maybe 1 ,000 km from Calabria, in the north direction. And when I arrived in Bologna, I found that my language is very esotic, you know. And the first time was the immediately the thing that can recognize me around the friends and around people. So when you are talking normally, you make conversation and everything is okay. You can talk in Italian, of course, everybody of us speak in Italian. But when you get angry and you are a little bit angry and you make something different of tune with your voice, you are gonna talk in dialect, because this is moment where they understand that you are not a joke, that it's something more serious, no? And this was the game we played with our friend, with the band because we started to sing in dialect and we was the the first rock roll band that play in that play song in dialect from Calabria but with the punk folk attitude so we mix the punk with mandolin with guitar folk the melody from south italy and so we became the first band in italy who played the tarantella punk was a tarantella is the rhythm from calabria a rhythm the seiyotavi you know six bar eight so in this kind of rhythm we put inside the electric guitar and more other thing and it was amazing because people start to look at this this this music as something that connect themselves with our with their land and with their history with something of different attitude so maybe a little more proud little more different way of look this this land you know and this was funny well then after nine album I found myself on 35 years old so it's different that 19 but still today that I'm 22, I can tell you that today I feel the same kind of challenge with my language, because I think that the story of a place can be, it can't finish in one life. It's very short human life, so maybe we can give our contribute to people to understand better what we are. - I think when I think in terms of an afterlife, which is not something I imagined discussing on the Wine and Language show, but I do think of it as our legacy and especially if you write something, if you sing something, if you change something, if you tell a story, I think of as the thing that that carries on and I think of the larger the entire human experience and if you you step back and you see see the big picture yeah so yeah yeah in this direction I think that there is some kind of music that you can consider it music can people can use for for day for the life for the For the objective, you know, it's like music. I already call in Italian music a utile Music out of useful music for music that you can use for your your ordinary day for your work for your Your dream and but whatever you need in that moment that can help you to do something you give encourage you, give you energy, give you sadness, I can, and this is, it's very different from the pop music, no, from commercial music that you can, you know, you can consume very, very fast, no. It's like the food, I think, you know, the slow food. Slow food, yes. Slow food, They means that you have to hit something that connect you with your land where you are in this moment Now I am curious about two things. Yes, I want to hear some angry Calabrese and I want to hear a Tarantella Angry Calabrese There is a there's a theater show in the beginning of and that's called Rocco Storto was a piece about a Calabrian soldier in the First World War and this soldier Rocco is the name I get crazy during the war and he talked with an austrian soldier In un momento sei che fa cazza brutta catene, ti pensi che mi spagni i tienti, catepigliosa faccia cazza brutta, usa come ti comegno, ti comegno una pezza, ti distrugio, ti mangio, ti ammazzo, ti faccio... Non mi ricordo, non mi ricordo che ho detto l 'ultimo texico, ma... - Bravo! - C 'è questa sorta La stituto. Deciata l 'antella panca così. Allarma l 'armare e campanessona, chi durche su sbarcata la marina. Allarma l 'armare e campanessona, attenta chi noti, sta vicinovo! RADCHA! RADCHA! That's great! So that's the tarantella. That's a summary of the rhythm of the rhythm. Yeah, tarantella is a And There are several ways to play it. A way to just do the right hand. For our listeners, the strumming pattern is different. And as a guitarist myself, I'm watching very closely that's very cool pepper yeah because they're very different kind of tarantella around the south Italy and just maybe the the calabrian way is a little bit more nervous more you could say in Italian we say arrabbiata no like angry angry so maybe in in in Puglia there's a there's the pizzica no In Sicilia? In Sicilia pura, però adesso non trovo soffario. la gente lo chiamava colapisce perché stavanta marco non pisce non divini vanunza più a nessuno forse era figlio di lui, lui di un ettono lui orno colorre facci E' cola di lumari curri e veni, o cola lumeregna scandacchiare, su quali pedamento si sosteni. E' cola più curieva, vai a torno maista. Vai a torno maista. Lalalay la -Lalalay Lalalay la -Lalalay la -Lalalay Lalalay... This is a Sicilian song. "What's that one about?" The legend of Colo Pesh is the story of... It's a very old story about... a fisherman, that... That go in the sea and... the king of Naples "ask to this man of looks about about Sicily if the Sicily is stable and Colapesce Colapesce is the name of the the fisherman is called Nicola everybody called Cola Peche Peche fish so then Nicola Peche go inside the sea and never come back so the king and the queen of neighbors they wait for him and say okay why Nicola Nicola and he answer from from the deep sea and say I can't come back because the Sicily is on three columns and one of this is broken so I'm keeping because if I live Sicily will fall down and this was a legend because it's triangular shape shape of Sicily, which is very famous. Oh, I didn't know about this. I didn't know this element of the legend, though. That's beautiful. You can find this story in the book "Le fiappe italiana di Italo Calvino", it's one of the oldest from South Italy. And I do this song, "La leggenda di colapesce" for a songwriter tribute, attribute Coladotelo Profazio, an old Calabrian folk singer who wrote this song and I do attribute to him a couple of years ago, a legend of Colapes. You're like a historian of as well as a musician, I feel. I want to know more, okay, so you're speaking the Calabresa dialect your whole life, right? Then you go off to college and you only speak it when you, when you, it has to come out. So then you're playing music, maybe regular music, and you decide to do this new thing. I want to hear more about what led you to give such importance through your whole career to know I'm going to sing in the the Calabrese dialect. I'm not just for one song or two. This is how I want to express myself. Was it more for yourself just bringing those ideas for yourself in a more honest way in your songwriting or was it more kind of a larger picture like I really I really want to share this language with with the world? It's the two things because in the first moment was absolutely a spontaneous choice because dialect is my ordinary day, I talk in dialect with everybody. And then in a moment I discovered that it's like a mission, you know, you have like a mission about your, you have to give back to your hold something that they give you to you. So you have this kind of religious approach that you have to continue to defund this kind of language, but not only as an aesthetic choice, but as a more, more than this choice. Like a moral choice, almost, like a... Especially, I tell you that the way I realized the meaning of my language was when I first time I've been outside of Italy for example in Germany or in France or in Switzerland and and after in US or in Canada and in Argentina and I realized that our dialect is more and more than only language. Tell me what you mean because you you know that there are there are some people that they conserve They they take care about the language or the old language all the world that nobody used today in Italy or in South Italy but this This is kind of you know not only nostalgia Operation Operation nostalgia, no, it's something else. It's, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a desire of a need. See, yes, a need of your, your... It's essential. See, it's a, it's maybe the meaning of total your life. I'm trying to imagine, as a songwriter myself, writing in a second language and thinking that that's was was the was the dialect for you your mother tongue and you learned Italian at the same time but I want to know more about in Calabria specifically at the time when you were growing up how did you switch from from dialect to Italian Italian and as I'm making air quotes I do this operation when I sing because when I sing I put in my way of singing the same meaning of when I sing in dialect in Italian, but this I discovered when I see when I heard the first time a songwriter from Russia called Vladimir Vysotsky, that's one of the best songwriters from East Europe. And when you hear the songs of Zoski, you don't need to understand what kind of language he's talking or he's singing. This is the (speaks in foreign language) - The object. - The object. You, When you hear Bruce Springsteen, you think that that's it, and you don't need to translate, it's not simply operation, because you have to put in your mood, in your voice, something that di più che semplicemente voi o semplicemente tu sei un buon canale, tu sei un buon giocatore, no, c 'è qualcosa di più che tu... More than the camisa bianca. Sì, come la camisa bianca. Tipo, una cosa del genere. Cioè, tu puoi aiutare yourself with something, no, with your attitude to stay on stage, your good tuner, but there is something that especially when you found that it's not important that you are in time or you are tuned, when you found that this is not The only thing you are you are start you are started to go in the world Can I give you an English phrase? Yes, and the English saying? Use we say Now you are cooking now. We are cooking with gas And this is the same cushion under the gas. Do you say that in Italian? No, it means like now we're cooking now. We're really doing it now we're doing it yeah yeah that's it now that's it yeah yeah but this is important for for an artist to realize this because especially in this moment I feel that a lot of young young artists young people have this kind of approach to music to theater to art in general That's an approach like very superficial, very, very fast, rapid, and, you know. Just about the style. Yeah. The Camilla Banca. You see, molto, molto connected with the spot. With the, the, the spot. The spotlight? Si, la luce è tac, Fina, after one week you, you remove everything. - We say a flash in the pan, fast, fast fame that fades. I couldn't tell you the origin of this phrase, the flash in the pan, but I know it. - Yeah, maybe it's a problem that We grow up in another kind of experience for technology, for a way of organizing our day very different from now. So now we feel a little bit disoriented about many, many things. So I think that maybe we can really understand what's up and now. so maybe we will understand the next 20 years, but the feeling now is, my feeling is that I'm tired of something that stays only on the surface. And only on the superficial level, yeah, on the surface on the surface on the surface yeah I'm I'm not boring it's boring you know sometimes it's boring goes to the super deep no it's boring can be boring I know that's what I'm saying can be a result boring for someone but but you know the emotion you do I do music because I need to emotion myself we are here to talking because we want to get emotion, feeling, and other stuff that we, before we, we, we haven't. Now we have. Exactly. I think so much about, you know, how for me, books and music from the past just really saved me as a young person. And I, I, I I guess, you know, I'm 37, but I do think a lot. I think a lot about the mark that each of us puts on the world in the moment, it just by something like keeping a diary, you know, this with language, really. How we change everything. And I think maybe for younger people, it's wonderful to have someone who's doing this work to conserve these stories, these amazing stories about the sailors and the feeling of the words, the rhythm of the words, the attack of the words. I just learned this word for like, in English we would say a through line, but I was interviewing, I'm not sure when her interview will air, But just this week I'm interviewing in real time these two two artists who both work in in singing dialect and or you know Local language. I was talking to Mikaela Mussolino from See see from from from she's a Sicilian American Yeah, so she Taught me this word like and I can't remember but Philo like a a continuous line or a red ribbon. - Filaroso. - Filaroso, could you explain this concept to us? - Filaroso, that's not so bad, and Michela and I, for Filaroso, we use this expression to say when something is connect, it's a story that starts and go on and continue. there is a connection. - A red line. - Chonfilo Rosso, between me and you, between our music and our glass of wine. - Speaking of which, I had no idea I was going to do this, but in the spirit of a cultural exchange from the folk music of the American Midwest to Galabria, I would like to play you a song. - Please. Great, so I'm just gonna, we're gonna move things around a little bit here. I can sing about destruction I can sing about destruction ♪ To Love all the part and I could sing about conflict I could sing about blood I could sing about the sad wind mill On the hills of Iowa I could sing about judgment I could sing about religion I could sing about the heavy rain clouds That hang on the Iowa ♪ Were silver sad, heavy rains are coming ♪ ♪ Red waves, black and ♪ Sad women, heavy rains are coming over ♪ (guitar music) ♪ Shiny, silver, sad, windmill ♪ ♪ Heavy rains are coming ♪ ♪ Heavy rains are coming ♪ ♪ Heavy rains are coming ♪ ♪ Rain's are coming ♪ Il cambio! Le luci sono andate? È certo! Il parto della nuova e pesante! Questa è di che periodo è? When you wrote the song? Oh, that's such a great question. I'll tell you the truth. I was listening to some music that was singing about like drugs and rock and roll. I was driving in my car through the Midwest, driving, driving, driving. I used to write so many songs in the car and I would sing them because I didn't have a phone to record things. But I did have a big cell phone and I would call my home phone and sing the melody into my answering machine so that I could remember. I did this with this song. I was listening to, you know, Lucinda Williams? Yeah, she's great. She's a great American, American country, wonderful musician. She had this song called "Real, Live, Bleeding Fingers." Anyways, it's about this guy doing heroin or something. And, you know, I grew up in the country, guys, in Nebraska, you know? Like, we had our own creepiness, but we didn't do... I wasn't doing any heroin, you know? And I was just feeling like, "Oh, I'm outside of the experience of rock and roll, I've been so sheltered. I was feeling sorry for myself, but then I got into the groove of these chords, and so I heard this chord progression, and I said, well, I was thinking of the, I don't know if they tell you this when you're studying to be a writer in Italy, but they say this cliche nearly, write what you know. And I thought, well, what do I know? I just know about these fields fields out there. But, you know, of course, I was feeling the desire, the angst, the emotion, even in the cornfield and the wheat field with the red -winged blackbird, and I could feel this depth in a way was almost a profasio for me. I had no idea, you know really how much desire and emotion I had plenty of claim to and I would find you know when I wrote the song for me though for me the origin story of a song of course is very interesting because I love to study all the artists and everything they do but for me it's almost no it is more important the meaning the meaning becomes when the listener hears the song yeah And the words for them, the way they, the language, locks into their own experience. And the emotion that that word or that image evokes for them, that's the meaning. It doesn't matter that I was driving in the car and thinking this or thinking that. The song has a life of its own. And even for myself, when I play, when I write a good song, especially, when I play over the years this the speaker you know as we say in poetry changes or the it changes from day to day for minute to minute the meaning I would love to hear your thoughts on your own songwriting process or if this is how it works for you or how you think about meaning yeah the meaning is it's I think that's your right you believe in something, no? When you are involved in this process and so the words, sometimes they come without asking of them. They arrive and you put inside the song. Or maybe I use, several times I use an invented word, that I make some lack of crambleau and I say \[speaking in foreign language\] and then after when I hear this what I do I found inside this word something that I can use and I can transform in words because sometimes the words are a translation of something else that you you need to have yes and emotion and this and this is the meaning that you're talking about you know the meaning of of your the contact between you and and what there is around you it's strange for example it's strange that An Italian singer sing in in American Because Because in Italian nobody's talk in American and the expression is not there So you can sing in perfectly English perfect American English but be you less something or you have or you have to move and go to live in California and San Francisco and San Diego or in Detroit or in Seattle or New York City and so then you can sing in English without the the question of the people why you are singing in English of course because you are in in America you sing in america but if you're singing florans it's strange sounds strange that you sing in english because i can't believe out 100 what are you saying there's always something less in this i like to sing i love your list of city names i often sing about places you know I hear the folks so much, just the name of a town. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, because the town, the city, the village, the people that you meet, they are in the story, absolutely important in the story. - Yes. - It's not casually. You can dream, when I was 15, I, Of course I dream about Bob Dylan in the village that sing with the guitar and I say, "Oh God, one day I could be like Bob Dylan." Me too, me too. Yeah, because it's normal for a young guy, 15 years old. But when I arrived in Bologna from Calabria, the man of the label company, of the record company in Bologna told me your music, I got a band in Calabria when I was 15 and this man in Boronia told me, "Hi, your stuff is, your idea is good, but the sound is hold, is something of ten years ago." So between South Italy and North Italy there was ten years of difference, of style, of hearing, of experience, because maybe in Boronia there have been a 200th band from America, from Europe going to play in Calabria. Coming from Nebraska to New York, I can relate, or even coming from the country in Nebraska to the city in Nebraska. There's a lag, a delay. Okay, Yeah, this but this is the if you understand this and you leave this not like complex, but like normally think you can be what you are about 10 years 20 years ago, but in In the complete control of what you are not not Looking for for for someone that is in front of you and you have to run fast to arrive there. No, you are 20 years before, you wait, you build your time. But this is, you understand this when you are experienced or people teach to you or talk to you, but when you are 15 or you are 16, it's difficult to realize this. Oh, the first time I come in New York City in 2002, I got to make a show in the Bronx with my band, "El Parto del Epesante". And when I go on the stage, I say to the people in the hall, I say, "Hello everybody, I'm Pepe from Italy". Nobody talk, and nobody say hello, and nobody clap their hands. Absolutely silent. So I think I've wronged something, and I come I can say, "Hello everybody, I'm Pepe from Italy, "from South Italy, completely, ice." And so one man in the hall, stand up and say, "Please, speak Calabrese." And so I realized it was 250 people from Calabria that they moved to the Bronx in 1950 and they are waiting for someone who talk and we sing in Calabrian so I was completely out of my zone out of my meaning I had to start everything from the beginning and then I realized that also for the American people can be interesting to hear someone who speak in Calabreso in Sicilian or whatever or invented language can be interesting but only if you are if you believe in what are you doing if you are inside your your stuff and if you eat a lot of bread before you go on the stage yes can you tell us that phrase one I love this. Please spell out your website, your channel. Where can people buy your albums? Where can people follow you? Find out what you're doing next. Yes, please. My website is paperotarelli .eu And you can follow me on Instagram or Twitter, Facebook, the name is Pepe Volterrelli Tutatacato. We will put this in the notes of the show as well. Go check this out. Thank you so much Pepe for the beautiful conversation to all of our listeners. Thank you so much for being here with us. Ask your local wine shop if they can get you some chiro, buy yourself some Pepe Voltairelli albums, and wherever you go and whatever you drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Thank you for listening to Moto De Berry, the podcast for local drinks and local sayings. If you would love for the show to continue and grow, support Moto De Berry on Patreon and unlock bonus episodes. Do you have a local drink or local saying to share? Send me a DM on the Motodiberi Instagram or an email through the website at motodiberi .com. Music for the podcast was composed by Arcilia Prosperi and performed by the band OU. You can purchase their recordings at oumusic .bandcamp .com. Theme music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](https://oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Audio recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister with assistance from [Steve Silverstein. ](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) Steve also mixed the live song recordings for this episode. [ Horses in the Vineyard ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e5-horses-in-the-vineyard-roberto-di-filippo/) [ Go Visit Irpinia ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e3-teresa-bruno-and-ilaria-petitto/) ### ▷Teresa Bruno e Ilaria Petitto d’Irpinia guidano Irpinia DOC URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e3-teresa-bruno-ilaria-petitto/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:34:28.000Z Cresciute nell'aria più pura in Irpinia, la terra delle cascate e dei boschi, Teresa Bruno ed Ilaria Petitto si sono incontrate per caso. Adesso Teresa è la presidente e Ilaria è la vicepresidente del consorzio tutela vini d'Irpinia. Le due viticoltrici presentano le uve antiche della regione: Greco di Tufo, Fiano di Avellino, e Aglianico (anche di Taurasi). Spiegano il vostro lavoro per il consorzio, e condividono i loro migliori consigli per scoprire nuovi vini. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/teresa1-format-original.jpg) Puoi vedere più informazioni dei vini d’Irpinia: [https://consorziovinidirpinia.it/](https://consorziovinidirpinia.it/?ref=mododibere.com) I vini che Teresa faccia con suo fratello Roberto: [https://aziendaagricolapetilia.it/](https://aziendaagricolapetilia.it/en/?ref=mododibere.com) I vini d’Ilaria: [https://www.donnachiara.com/](https://www.donnachiara.com/?ref=mododibere.com) ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/ilaria-format-original.jpg) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)Brava, mi piacc. Benvenuti a Modo di Bere, podcast su bevande locali e detti locali. Sono la condutrice Rose Thomas Bannister. Oggi sono molto contenta di intervistare di persona Teresa Bruno e Ilaria Petito, due vitticoltrici della campania. Oltre i vitticoltrici, loro sono importanti sostenitrici nella regione. Teresa è il presidente del consorzio in Erpinia e Ilaria e vicepresidente. Teresa fa vino insieme con suo si andà agri con la patilia e Ilaria guida Dona Chiara dove la sua famiglia produce vino da tempo della nonna di mia madre. Grazie, grazie. Mi piace iniziare il programma chiedendo ai miei ospiti per una bevanda e un detto locale. Ilaria mi piacerebbe che tu ci insegnassi le nobili uve irpine, ma prima mi piacerebbe parlare con Teresa della lingua locale in Irpina. Hai un detto o una frase molto regionale da condividere? Certo, la nostra provincia è una provincia bucazione vitivinicola e quindi si è sempre parlato di vino da tempi molto a dietro. Il detto che ti comunicherò adesso è questo, il vino buono si vende senza la frasca. Oggi invece abbiamo voglia con il nostro consorzio di comunicare i nostri vini non solo all 'Italia ma al mondo intero, così come stiamo facendo. e l 'aria sono così entusiasta di imparare da te su Irpinia possiamo iniziare con le uve con la storia delle uve Irpinia produce vino da tantissimi anni quindi quando parliamo ovviamente di mille anni fa perché l 'Italia come sai è una storia che va indietro fino all 'impero romano è difficilissimo dire la verità, cioè sapere con certezza quello che stiamo dicendo. Alcuni sostengono che, per esempio, il greco di Tufo è stato portato sulle coste della Campania durante il tempo della Magna Gresa, altri dicono che l 'Aianico deriva dalla Spagna, quindi non possiamo essere certi no delle teorie sull 'origine dei nostri vitigni, ma siamo sicuri comunque che sono vitigni molto antichi, che sono vitigni Toctoni, quindi questa è la specialità dell 'irpina, cioè di avere dei vitigni che possiamo sostanzialmente coltivare e far crescere e produrre soltanto noi in Irpina, come denominazioni appunto Irpine, che sono dei bianchi molto longevi, che è un 'altra caratteristica unica, perché comunque il fiano di Avellino e il greco di Tufo sono delle varietà tardive, ma che poi danno il meglio negli anni, e anche l 'Aianico, che è comunque una varietà tardiva che è considerato il grande rosso del sud d 'Italia, è un vino che si vendemmi a novembre quando in Italia la vendemmia è praticamente finita dappertutto e però poi è un vino che appunto ha delle performance longeve negli anni quindi noi siamo molto orgogliosi della qualità e delle nostre varietà autotone. Mi interessano molte luove autotone. Teresa parliamo di più dei vini che sono fatto di queste uve? Sì, certamente. Allora con le uve che l 'aria ha ampiamente descritto noi otteniamo per l 'Irpini a tre denominazioni a DOGG e delle denominazioni a DOC. Per le denominazioni a DOGG con le uve di Greco che sono coltivate in otto piccolo comuni della provincia di Avellino e che sono Tufo e i 7 paesi confinanti noi avremo e otteniamo il greco di Tufo di Ocg che è effettivamente uno dei nostri fiori all 'occhiello come vini ed è uno dei vini più ricercati della provincia di Avellino poi invece nella zona ci spostiamo di zona perché poi la cosa così bella dell 'Irpigna e che ha una zonizzazione già, diciamo, definita, perché noi abbiamo per le dioceghi tre zone che solamente in due piccoli casi si cavallano sulle denominazioni però formalmente abbiamo questa zonizzazione già evidenziata e quindi spostandoci A lato del greco di Tufo, noi avremo la zona del fiano di Avellino. Le uve sono fiano e la denominazione che prende dalla coltivazione all 'interno dell 'Irpina in questi paesi si chiama fiano di Avellino. Spostandoci ancora nella zona del Taurasi, le uve sono agianico, ma con tre anni di invecchiamento e un disciplinare molto rigido, noi avremo ultarati di OCG. Queste tre denominazioni poi hanno avuto anche la possibilità di essere riconosciuto in riserva con degli anni di invecchiamento maggiori. Grazie mille per l 'adricazione della regione. Forse possiamo parlare del caratteristico di Fiano, Greco, Alianico. Allora partiamo sicuramente con i bianchi perché in abbinamento si parte sempre con i vini bianchi, non per importanza perché le denominazioni hanno pari importanza. Partendo dal greco di Tufo, in realtà nel bicchiere noi troveremo nella vendemmia corrente, nel vino giovane, avremo sicuramente delle importanti noti floreali, di fiori bianchi e gialle, gilestre, biancospini, di quei fiori non coltivati, di quelli che si trovano selvatici, al gusto sicuramente avremo una buona parte di frutta, frutta fresca, cidula, avremo tanta sapitità, avremo voglia di continuare a bere il vino, perché il grego di tufe è un vino istancabile e abbiamo poi, mandandolo giù, una lunghezza, è molto molto lungo e tutto quello che noi abbiamo bevuto ci continuerà a permanere alle nostre note gustative. È il fiano? Il fiano, il fiano di Avellino, il nostro fiano di Avellino, è il vitigno delicato, è più sicuramente aromatico del greco di tufo, quindi avremo un impatto dal bicchiere più imponente, ci saranno tanti fiori e tanta frutta giovane, mettendoli in bocca noteremo un corpo e una spalla più imponente. Sicuramente un vino che va abbinato a formaggi, a pietanze più strutturate ed è comunque uno il nostro fiore all 'occhiello, il fiano di Avellino e soprattutto è lui che ci stupisce nella longevità. È molto molto lungo e negli anni avrà note di petrolio, avrà profumi terziari che nebreranno appunto il bicchiere. Mi piace molto piano, greco, alianico, tutte. We can speak also of the alianico, il rosso. Sì, allora l 'alianico lo descriveremo nella dio cg del Taurasi. L 'alianico è un vino che ha almeno tre anni di invecchiamento e nella riserva almeno quattro anni in becchiamento. Assicuramente il passaggio in legno da disciplinare e quindi questo ci fa già immaginare cosa possiamo trovare all 'interno del bicchiere. Avremo sicuramente in particolare zone di produzione del Taurasi avremo una sensazione di fiori quali le rose, la rosa canina, la frutta rossa, le ciliegge, le more, i lamponi e poi in bocca avremo questo grandissimo corpo, grande calore e grande acidità si combinano perfettamente insieme per dare un 'esplosione in bocca di sapori e poi la lunghezza lungo lungo comunque sapido rispecchia completamente il territorio dell 'irpinia. piacerebbe parare di più del terreno. Sicuramente noi abbiamo dei sottosuoli a macchia di l 'opardo, significa che non tutti i sottosuoli sono uguali ed è anche questa la motivazione per cui in alcune zone si coltiva il grego di tufo in altre il fiano di avellino e in altre il taurasi. Nella zona assolutamente del grego di tufo noi abbiamo le marne, abbiamo un sottosuolo sul furio e molto minerale. Nella zona del fiano abbiamo sicuramente una zona calcarea mentre invece nella zona dell 'Aianico abbiamo un terreno vulcanico, quindi le tre differenti tipologie, seppur in una zona molto piccola, ci danno delle sensazioni diverse e la possibilità appunto di coltivare tre viti in autoctoni totalmente diversi tra di loro. Perfetto, grazie. Che? Si, un caffè per te, Roberto. No, no, va bene, va bene, già. Mi chiesto, sembrate come buone amiche, da quanto tempo vi conoscete? In realtà ci conosciamo da un decennio e la nostra amicizia è nata per caso, mi era stato consigliato di tenermi lontana perché lei era, lei e l 'aria era così diversa da me. Io ho più sul mondo acricolo, lei è più fashion, il mondo della moda. E invece poi la contaminazione ha fatto bene a me e forse anche un po' a lei. Io mi piace questo, io pensavo, non davvero una cosa, ma una sorta di troppo che abbiamo in inglese. Spero se avete qualcosa simile all 'Italia, c 'è una città con una città con una città con una città Tu sei un topo di campagna, io un topo di città Ma non so qual è meglio Ci sono la stessa cosa in Italia? No, no, no, non si riusce, però te lo rubo Hai stollito, è un bel modo Da noi in Italia essere una toppa non è una cosa troppo bella Voglio chiedervi da vostro lavoro come Presidente Evici, Presidente del Consorzio Tutelevini di Opinia. Potremmo cominciare dall 'inizio. Cosa è un Consorzio Divino italiano? Il Consorzio di Tutela, dei vini, in realtà è un organo ministeriale e quindi è l 'insieme, è l 'unione dei agricoltori, dei trasformatori delle uve in vino e degli imbottigliatori. Se si riesce ad arrivare ad un numero una percentuale che il Ministero ha per legge, questo consorcio diventa consorcio di tutela dei vini ed è effettivamente un impegno molto molto importante perché comporta il controllo del territorio e delle denominazioni, però anche la divulgazione e la promozione di queste. Dimititi più della tua visione per il consortio, per i vini. La mia visione per il consortio in realtà è la visione del mio territorio, perché il consortio non può prescindere da tutta l 'evoluzione che un territorio può avere. In realtà il nostro territorio a livello divini è già conosciuto, non è conosciuto per l 'insieme delle cantine e dei brand che possono invece portare questa nostra forza territoriale in alto. Ecco, la mia visione futura ma immediata, perché è già iniziata, è l 'apertura totale del nostro territorio e dei nostri pensieri. I nostri vini si possono solo far conoscere se il nostro territorio si fa conoscere e l 'unione è fondamentale. Ilaria Teresa, per tutto il vostro lavoro di promuovere la vostra regione vorrei assicurarmi che i nostri ascoltatori abbiano l 'opportunità di conoscere anche le vostre cantine. per favore dimmi di Dona Chiara di Patilia. Allora, Dona Chiara in realtà è stata iniziata comunque da mia madre. Ecco perché si chiama Dona Chiara, perché Chiara è mia madre e lei in realtà ha dedicato la cantina alla nonna, quindi Dona Chiara era la nonna di mia madre e la chiamavano Dona Chiara in segno di rispetto perché parliamo comunque di una donna vissuta tra fine 800 e primi del 900 e mia mamma era legatissima alla nonna per cui quando hai ereditato questi vigneti lei era andata in pensione dalla scuola perché è stata insegnante comunque ha voluto mettere sulla sua produzione, la sua cantina ha voluto dedicarla alla nonna. Io non ho avuto il piacere di conoscerla alla nonna di mia madre però sono cresciuta con i racconti di questa donna molto moderna per quell 'epoca, molto forte e determinata che comunque si è occupata delle proprietà della famiglia durante tutte e due le guerre mondiali quando appunto i uomini non c 'erano, erano lontani dalla famiglia, ha insegnato a mia madre, inculcato a mia madre l 'amore per la campagna, a quei tempi in Italia c 'era la mezzadria quindi queste erano delle vere e proprie fattorie, c 'erano gli animali, non si faceva solo vino, si produceva il grano, il tabacco, tante cose. Poi verso la fine degli anni '80, primi anni '90, mio nonno convertì tutta la proprietà come vigneto. Io in realtà quando ero giovane ero, consideravo Avelino una città troppo piccola e noiosa, quindi me ne volevo andare. A 18 anni mi sono andata a studiare a Roma, mi sono laureata a Roma in legge e poi sono diventata avvocato e pensavo che, insomma, volevo comunque girare il mondo, non volevo lavorare in un 'azienda di famiglia. Mia madre però mi chiese di tornare a Davellino per vedere come stavo organizzando la cantina, quello che stava facendo e devo dire che è stato per me, è difficile spiegarlo perché è stato veramente tipo una cosa magica, un innamoramento della parte comunque di queste erpini a così verde, così selvaggia autentica, che ovviamente è molto piacitante rispetto alla città, che invece è una piccola città, e quindi ho cominciato a interessarmi del vino, a mettere veramente tutti i miei sforzi in questa cantina, anche a cambiare molte cose, perché comunque avevo un 'idea completamente diversa dalla visione molto tradizionale di mia madre. Quindi all 'inizio abbiamo avuto ovviamente dei momenti in cui non eravamo per niente d 'accordo, però lei credo adesso sia molto orgogliosa e molto soddisfatta insomma di quello che abbiamo fatto con Donna Chiara. Brava, ok, brava, ok, per Petilia. Dimmi un po' della storia del Petilia. Petilia significa piccola patria, nuova patria, in realtà dal greco. In realtà per me e per mio fratello è stato veramente l 'inizio di un 'avventura, perché la nostra azienda non è nata dai nostri genitori, ma è nata dalla volontà e dalla passione per la terra di mio fratello Roberto che in realtà studiava fisica nucleare, quindi tutt 'altro. Io sono stata coinvolta in Petilia, semplicemente per l 'amore sviscerato che ho per mio fratello, quindi massima fiducia. Lui ha iniziato questo percorso per me era normale che ci fosse anche io. Quindi quando abbiamo iniziato questa avventura io ho impegnato i miei soldi per il matrimonio, lui ha impegnato i suoi risparmi e abbiamo iniziato costruendo la cantina sotto casa. Con i anni poi siamo cresciuti, sono cresciuti i vigneti perché noi comunque abbiamo tutti vigneti di proprietà alla nostra un 'azienda agricola e abbiamo anche costruito la nostra cantina. Abbiamo costruito significa che abbiamo messo mattune su mattune con le nostre mani. Io scelto le pietre e li andavo a caricare col furgoncino e Roberto metteva pietre, oltre poi a lavorare nella terra. In realtà può sembrare una cosa faticosa, ma è stato molto molto divertente. Quando io arrivo nella mia azienda io so ogni pietra da quale posto viene, da quale vigna viene, perché tante delle nostre pietre sono state tratte dalle nostre vigne e so ogni terreno e ogni vigna che sapore la sua terra. È veramente una passione dove il lavoro non è fatica, il lavoro è divertimento e volontà di scoprire la natura cosa ci può dare ogni anno e questa petilia a petilia non è uguale ogni anno, i vini di petilia variano da anno ad anno, noi lavoriamo in agricoltura biologica per le nostre vigne, abbiamo il massimo rispetto per la terra e per l 'ecosistema intorno a noi E la cosa più bella di Petilia è continuare a sognare e ad avere progetti nuovi di anno in anno, come quest 'anno per esempio abbiamo presentato qui Tarantella che è un vino ancestrale che è piaciuto tantissimo, un greco, base greco di tufo ma è un greco. E per noi è stata una scoperta perché pensavamo anche di non portarlo questo vino. Quindi l 'emozione di New York quest 'anno con Tarantella è stato come ogni volta che siamo venuti o pure abbiamo intrapreso nuovi progetti, perché le vere emozioni sono condividerle e Petilia ha voglia di essere sempre condivisa. Ci sono più parole, più messaggi che volete condividere con ti ascoltatori. Allora il messaggio migliore che è quello che poi abbiamo cercato anche di lanciare in questa nostra promozione qui a New York è venite a visitare l 'Irpigna perché il modo migliore per conoscere i vini di una regione e visitare quella regione, vedere il posto, conoscere le persone, assaporare il cibo, combinato con il vino del posto e così così sia praticamente tutta l 'esperienza completa e poi quando si ritorna a casa si ripuono degustare il vino e ricordarsi di quel viaggio meraviglioso e così l 'esperienza si consolidano ancora di più e quel vino ti rimane in mente per sempre, credo che questa sia la cosa migliore da fare ed è per questo che invito tutti a venire in Irpinia, l 'Irpinia fa parte della regione Campania, so che la Campania come nome non è conosciuto, quindi dico anche che è la regione di alcune località turistiche tra le più famose al mondo, tra cui la Costiera Malfitana, Sorrento, Capri, e l 'Irpina e la provincia di Avellino si trovano nell 'interno, ma è molto semplice da raggiungere, è un po' somerviglioso. L 'area ha sicuramente detto tutto. Io direi che oltre a visitare l 'Irpigna l 'Irpigna va respirata, noi abbiamo un 'area particolare dei nostri boschi e abbiamo acque e cascate bellissime che rappresentano la purezza della nostra terra. Quindi venite in Irpigna che oltre a tanto verde troverete tanto vino buono e tanto cibo buono oltre alle persone autentiche. Sono 100 % d 'accordo con questo messaggio, nella vita mai smettere di imparare, mai smettere di essere curiosi, di conoscere nuove cose, di scoprire per esempio nuovi vini, sicuramente i vini dell 'Irpina possono essere la novità, anche se non sono nuovi, ma la novità che i consumatori americani possono scoprire. Puoi trovare Modo di Bere in Blogspot, Tiktok, Instagram e YouTube se ami il progetto. Puoi diventare sostenitori del programma su Patreon e accedere a più contenuti esclusivi ed educativi. Le informazioni sul www .molodibere .com La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ercilia Prosperi per OU. Puoi ascoltarli su www .oumusic .bandcamp .com La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto, registrato, e montato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Steve Silverstein ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S1E3 Teresa Bruno & Ilaria Petitto Want You to Visit Irpinia DOC URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e3-teresa-bruno-and-ilaria-petitto/ Last updated: 2026-08-26T03:34:03.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e3-teresa-bruno-ilaria-petitto/) Raised in the purest air, where waterfalls cascade down the forested hills of Campania, Teresa Bruno and Ilaria Petitto became friends by chance. Now Teresa is the president of the consorzio for the Southern Italian wine region of Irpinia, and Ilaria is the vice-president. The two winemakers introduce the historic local grapes of Irpinia: Greco di Tufo, Fiano di Avellino, and Aglianico (including Taurasi). They explain their work for the consorzio and impart their best advice for discovering new wines. Learn more about Irpinia: [https://consorziovinidirpinia.it/](https://consorziovinidirpinia.it/?ref=mododibere.com) ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/teresa-bruno-format-original.jpg) Discover the wines Teresa makes with her brother Roberto: [https://aziendaagricolapetilia.it/en/](https://aziendaagricolapetilia.it/en/?ref=mododibere.com) Discover Ilaria’s wines: [www.donnachiara.com/](https://www.donnachiara.com/?ref=mododibere.com) ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/ilaria-petitto-format-original.jpg) **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript The best way to really discover and understand the wines from a region is to visit the region, to see the place, to meet the people, to eat the food, to drink the wine, because this is the complete experience. And then when you go back to your place, you can find the wine and have the memories. Bravo! Mi piac! Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast for local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. Today I am very happy to be making an in -person interview with Teresa Bruno and Ilaria Petito, Two winemakers from Campania in southern Italy. They are not only winemakers, but leading advocates for their historic region of Irpina. Teresa is the president of the consortium in Irpina, and Ilaria is the vice president, and Teresa makes wine together with her brother Roberto at the Petilia Winery. Ilaria is the head of the Donna Chiara winery where her family has been making wine since the time of her mother's grandmother. And Laria, Teresa, for all the work that you do to promote the wider region, I wanna make sure our listeners get a chance to hear about each of your wineries. - Okay, so Donna Chiara was established by my mother. she's Cara, so her name and her name comes from her grandmother Cara, so that's why Donna Cara, that means Lady Cara, because of course my mother's grandmother was a lady that was living in the 18th century, so my mother when she retired from the school, she was a teacher, she decided because she retaged the property of the vineyards to start her own production. And she, for her, was really natural to give to the winery the name of her grandmother, because they were so close. And I, of course, didn't have the chance to meet her grandmother, but I grew up listening to my mother talking of this really strong and modern woman that for that time was really full of energy. She was managing the land, the property of the family during the two World War, when all the men were out and away from the land. And she teach to my mother the love for the countryside. And of course, in that period, you know, these were not just producing wine, but they were really a farm. They were having animals and doing different kind of production. And then only in the late 80s, 90s, my grandfather decided to convert the property to the vinification and so to growing grapes and to be honest, when I was young, for me, the area of Avellina was very boring. So I did not imagine to work with my mother in a family company. My idea of wine was something to enjoy, but not my work. So I left Avellina when I was 18 and I moved to Rome, I took my graduation in Laos, I became a lawyer, and I was so excited to discover the world. So my mother, she started to tell me, why you don't come back to Avellino to see what I'm doing with Donna Chiara? And I did, and it's difficult to explain because it was kind of magic, but I completely fell in love with the countryside of Avellino so the town Avellino was boring to me but the countryside is so exciting so beautiful and authentic and wild that I started to put all you know my effort myself in the winery at the beginning it was hard with my mother because we were having a completely different idea she Sì, è molto tradizionale, io ero molto moderna, ero piccola e ho iniziato a cambiare molte cose, ma ora penso che la mia madre è molto pronta e molto felice per quello che stiamo facendo. E quindi, quella è la storia. significa piccola patria, nuova patria, in realtà dal greco. In realtà per me e per mio fratello è stato veramente l 'inizio di un 'avventura perché la nostra azienda non è nata dai nostri genitori, ma è nata dalla volontà e della passione per la terra di mio fratello Roberti. In realtà... ha detto che l 'inizio di patria è un nuovo homeland, un small homeland and this is the name that my brother and I choose for our winery. I'm involved in the winery thanks to my brother because it was Roberto, my brother for what I have really you know a deep love that he was studying physics, nuclear physics at the university, but he decided to start this adventure with his own way -making production, and for me it was a natural to follow him in this adventure. So he put in the winery all the money that he was saving, and I did the same as well, all the money that were designated for my wedding, I decided to invest in this winery. And together we built every single stone of the winery. So we did everything by ourselves. We built the winery, we are taking care of the land, we do the production of the wine. And for us, this is something fun, it's a real passion. So it's not an heavy work for us because we really believe in what we do. It's, for us, beautiful when we go to our winery. We know every single stone from which vineyards it comes from and the tasting of our soil and also what every single wine that comes from every single vineyard's taste and so this is also what we want to be. Petilia is never the same every year is different because we put in the wines the things that nature gives that was every year and every year is different and also the training system of our vineyards is organic because we want to be sustainable, we respect the nature e questa è Petilia, è autentica, è Teresa e Roberto. Elaria, mi piaceremo che ti教essi sui grapi nobeli di Iropinia, ma prima volevo chiedere a Teresa per alcune lingue locali. già da tempi molto a dietro. Il detto che ti comunicherò adesso è questo, il vino buono si vende senza la frasca. like when the wine is good, it's sold easily without, you know, necessary to do something special like special marketing or event, but now that, I mean, we know that now it's not like this anymore, so with the concert to the hotel we are here in New York to promote our denomination and our wines. That's wonderful. Thank you. What is the fresca? Frausca is, you know, the vine's arms, like we told Le Foglie, il rametto della vita, means the accessories. You don't need any accessories to sell a good wine, you know? It's just the wine, the quality. So you're using the vines themselves as the image. Thank you so much. Ilaria, I am so excited to learn from you about Irpina. Could you start by telling us the story of the grapes they used to make wine there? Yes, so Irpina is making wine since a really long time because we have some of the ancient grapes of Italy, for instance the white, Di Tufo and Fiano Di Avelino, but also the Red Ayanico. Of course, when you go back to millennia ago, you cannot never be sure about the history. So there are different theory. There are a theory that said that this grape were brought to Campania from Greece during the Magna Gris period. Other theory that said that, for instance, Ayanico comes from Spain. But anyways, we can tell that we produce wines in Irpina only from indigenous varietal, so only local grapes. And I think this is something that really is the characteristic and the specialty of Irpina, because no international varietal, only local grape and some of the best white of Italy that can really aging for a long time and the Ayanico which is also a late varietal red that is harvested in November so when all over Italy the harvest are already finished since long time and which is considered you know the biggest red of southern Italy so amazing grape, very good and long -gaging wines, and we are so proud of what we do. I'm so interested in the local grapes, especially with this project. Can you talk to us a little bit more about the wines that are made from these grapes? So, with the grapes that the area has widely described, we get for the Irpinia three OGG denominations and doc denominations. For the OGG denominations, with Ok, so in Erpienia we have three denominations as DOCG, so the nomination of region controlled and guaranteed, and what is interesting is that the three denominations are very separate from each other. For instance, we have the Greco di Tufo denomination, which includes eight small municipalities around the village of Tufo, so the varietal is greco. The Tufo means from Tufo, the village that gives the denomination. Only two villages in Irpina come across the two of the three D .O .C .Js, so Montefalcion and Lapio, and they can produce both the denomination Fiano de Villino and Taurasi. Then, beside the Greco di Tufo denomination, we have Fiano Di Avelino, which is quite a big denomination because it includes over 26 villages, and then we have also the denomination of Taurasi. It's a kind of a donation that already keeps very separate the production of the grapes from where we have this denomination and then for the Ayanico, for the denomination of Taurasi. Taurasi is made with Ayanico grape, so after a period of aging in Uqq and following the strict regulation of the Ossige for Taurasi, we can release a Taurasi de Ossige, which is an aged Ayanico. Recently, the consortium also changed the regulation e aggiungere la nominazione fiano di Avellino in Greco di Tufo al Riserva, che significa che si può essere relizzato un anno dopo un anno di edificazione, perché vogliamo convengere il potenziale di edificazione del mondo. Teresa, parliamo di più dei vini che sono fatta di queste uve. Allora, partiamo sicuramente con i bianchi, perché in abbinamento si parte sempre con i bianchi. Ok, quindi ha iniziato con i bianchi bianchi, non perché l 'importanza dei tre denominazioni è diversa, ma solo perché, generalmente, quando abbiamo messo, abbiamo iniziato con i bianchi bianchi. E prima di Greco di Tufa, So what we found in a glass of greco -titufo, generally we found white and yellow flowers, but the kind of wild flowers and fruit, mainly citrus, this kind of fresh fruit that really brings some acidity to our greco, and also sapidity, because of course the Greco generally has this sulfurous note. And what is also very exciting is the long -lasting finish of the Greco di Tufo, because when you drink a glass of Greco, it's like you always want more. It's never enough, because it's something that really make you excited to drink the next glass. Thank you so much for that education. Maybe we can speak a little bit about the general flavors and characteristics of alianico, of fiano. Il fiano, il fiano di Abellino, il nostro fiano di Abellino, è il vitigno delicato. So The second white is our fiano di Avelino di OCG, which is one of the best white wine of Italy, we can tell. So, fiano is very complex and very elegant, full of different notes such as dried fruit and flowers, fresh fruit and fresh flower, It has a kind of big structure, so you can pair fiano even with kind of, you know, well -structured food. And is fiano really surprises us for the longevity, because it's among the few white that can really age for over 20 years. So this is really the specialty of fiano de Villino, e quindi è un uomo che ci rende davvero orgoglioso di questo. Sì, allora l 'Aianico lo descriveremo nella dio cg del Taurasi. Sì, l 'Aianico, lo descriviamo, sorry, in the denomination of Taurasi e quindi, seguendo la regolazione the Taurasi di Alianico is aged the minimum three years for the regular Taurasi and four years for the Taurasi Riserva. So after a long period of aging, you can already imagine what you get in the glass. You get an explosion of different flavors. For instance, the fruit, the red fruit from, you la cherry, la bambina bambina, che è il caratteristico di Ayaneko da Erpinia. E poi anche alcune tesse note da un ucco, ma sono molto balanciati. E anche l 'ultima finita, l 'acidità e la mineralità, tutto il caratteristico di questa grande cattiva cattiva, che può vivere sempre, che è il Taurasi. Bello, piaceremo parlare un po' di più sul terreno e sul terroirio dell 'Irpina. Piacerebbe imparare di più dal terreno. Sicuramente noi abbiamo dei Tussoli a macchia di lupardo, significa che non... So, riguardando il soile in Irpina, è interessante che questa è un 'altra specialità di Irpina che ogni zona, ogni nominazione ha un 'altra caratteristica da altri. Per esempio, l 'area di Greco di Tufa è caratterizzata da questo sulfus, perché In the past there were sulphur mines, so the soil is rich of this element that gives the minerality to our Greco di Tufo. Of sulphur. Yes, sulphur. Then the area of Fiano di Avelino is more clucky clay, so it's very rocky. The roots of the vines need to go really deep in the soil to look for nutrition, so these ills to give a body, full body and complexity to our fiamme rivellino. And then in the area of Ayanico we have more volcanic soil. So for instance in many vineyards we have ashes because of course the area is also interested by the several le erupzioni che aggiungiamo nella regione di campania. E quindi questo già la caratteristica di i nostri Taurasi e l 'Aianico. Quindi abbiamo un 'Aianico che è un fuoco. È una varietà tannica, ma ora il stile è cambiato molto. Quindi è più ben fatto, ben integrato e balanciato con l 'acidità e l 'acidità di l 'Aianico. Perfetto, grazie. Ok, così. I want to ask you more about your vision for the consortio and for the wines of Eropinia, but first I'm interested. You two seem to be such close friends. How long have you known each other? Per caso mi era stato consigliato di tenermi lontana, perché lei e Ilaria era così diversa da me. Io ho più sul mondo acricolo, lei è più fashion, è il mondo della moda, e invece poi la contaminazione ha fatto bene a me e forse anche un po' a lei. We know each other since about 10 years, and we became friends by chance. Teresa said that people told her to get far from me because we were so different. She was more in the country, you know, area, and she was thinking about me more in like a glamour, fashion addict person, but she said that in the end we became friends and the contamination among our two different styles and words helps each other to become, you know, better. I love this. I'm thinking of not really a saying but kind of a trope that we have in English. I wonder if you have something similar in Italian. There's a country mouse in a city. "Tutto è un topo di campagna e un topo di città" Ma non so qual è meglio. Ci sono la stessa cosa in Italia? No, non si dice, però te lo rubo. "I stole it, it's a nice way". Da noi in Italia essere una toppa non è una cosa troppo bella. "I I want to ask you both about your work as the president and vice president of the Erpinia Consorzio, but could we start at the beginning? What is an Italian wine consortio? Ok, So what is an Italian consortium? The Italian consortium is an association, which includes grapes, grower, producers of wine, and also just company that just bought the wine. And if they get a range of people that are associated, they become recognized by the Ministry of Agricultural and when a concerto become di tutela like the concerto tutela Vinidirpina, it becomes the arm of the ministry in the territory and has the control of the right application il processo di verificazione per i vini del D O C e del C G Y. E anche la promozione del denominazione, che è già importante. E quindi è una responsabilità molto importante. Dimitri più della tua visione per il consorzio e per i vini. La mia visione per il consorzio in realtà è la visione del mio territorio, perché il consorzio... Quindi la visione del consorzio per il futuro inizia dal territorio. Quindi ci crediamo davvero che il terreno, il territorio, il land come prima, i nostri vini, la denominazione, sono già nuove. Per esempio, il greco di Tufo, Fiano de Villino, ma è una kind that Erpinia, the area is not known. So now we have to build the brand of Erpinia because we really believe that this can be the strength of opening the doors to our wines, to the other wineries, because there are many wineries under the consortium that needs and deserve to I'm known. And so this is, you know, the vision and the target that we will have for the future. Is there any final word that you would like our listeners to know about your opinion about the wine? I think the best message is come to visit Irpina. This is what we tried, we tried to tell to the audience here in New York, the best way to really discover and understand the wines from a region is to visit the region, to see the place, to meet the people, to eat the food, to drink the wine, because this is the complete experience. And then when you go back to your place, you can find the wine and have the memories of your trip, which is something that consolidates your memory and the experience. So the message I want to give is come to Irpina. Irpina is in Campania. So I know Campania is also not known. So Campania is the region of famous touristic locations such as Amalfi Coast, Pompeii, Sorrento. La regione si chiama Campania e l 'Irpina è di Avellino province, è in terra e è la qualità di regione di Campania. L 'area ha sicuramente detto tutto. Io direi che oltre a visitare l 'Irpina, l 'Irpina va respirata. Noi abbiamo un 'area particolare dei nostri boschi e abbiamo acque e cascate bellissime che rappresentano la vita della vera. Teresa ha detto che Ilaria era già dicendo tutto sul Paese, quindi cosa posso aggiungere, solo che anche abbiamo qualcosa molto speciale, che è questo aere, quindi puoi dire il povero reale il Paese, the pureness of Irpina, because we are surrounded by mountains, so we have this beautiful forest rich of these falls, waterfalls, so it's really like a paradise, like a pure place that you can breathe, you can taste through the food and the wine, so come to Irpina and enjoy. Teresa Ilaria, Thank you so much for talking with me, for all of your work in Irpina and Campania in Italy and to all of our listeners. Thank you so much wherever you go, whatever you drink, remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Thank you. I 100 % agree with your message, never stop learning because we have to be curious to discover all these new things and new wines and the Irpina wines are for sure the best new wines which are not really new but that's you know people and the US people just consumers can discover. blogspot, Instagram, and TikTok for even more unique and encouraging drinks and language content. If you'd love for the show to continue and grow, support MotoDBerry on Patreon and unlock bonus episodes. Music for the show is composed by Arcilia Prosperi and performed by the band OU. You can purchase their recordings at oumusic .bandcap .com. que permanece dejándose llevar un otro, se engañando se déjase para ese mismo Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ "Dialect is a Luxury" ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e4-peppe-voltarelli/) [ Running for the Wine ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e2-dr-rebecca-lawrence/) ### ▷S1E2 Dr Rebecca Lawrence corre per il vino URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e2-dott-ssa-rebecca-lawrence-2/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:36:02.000Z Dr Rebecca Lawrence è una educatrice di vino, un’appassionata di corsa, e il capo della redazione per “Wine and Hip Hop.” Lei e Rose Thomas discutono se quella persona è fuori con il balcone o con la legna, come ordinare una birra in Middlesbrough, terroir nella musica rap, e il miglior consiglio per grandi sogni nel vino o qualsiasi altra avventura. ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/dr-rebecca-lawrence-format-original.png) Le informazioni di Wine and Hip Hop: [www.wineandhiphop.com](http://www.wineandhiphop.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Ascoltare podcast di Rebecca, Running for the wine: [https://kite.link/running-drinking-and-knowing ](https://kite.link/running-drinking-and-knowing?ref=mododibere.com) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)It'll be interesting because I had a conversation with a friend of mine about how people's voices change when they speak a different language, and it's absolutely true. I noticed it in my friends who speak English, although they're Italian, their voices shift. You're about to hear my Italian radio voice, and we're about to hear the Italian version of your BBC. We can do this, we can tell you do this. Benvenuti, al modo di bere italiano. Mi chiamo Rose Thomas Bannister, sono la conduttrice del podcast su pevande locali e detti locali. Sono molto contenta di intervistare la dottoressa Rebecca Lawrence. Rebecca is a divine educator, a race enthusiast, and the leader of the Reduction for Wine and Hip -Hop. I always remind you listeners of this podcast, that you will never stop learning. No one knows this advice more than Dr. Rebecca Lawrence. insieme alle sue numerose certificazioni, lei è la mia compagna Italian Wine Ambassador. Siamo diventati amici per la nostra comune passione per il vino italiano, una passione che l 'ha portata infatti a trasferirsi dall 'inghilterra a Verona. Come sappiamo, questo è il podcast per bevande locali e detti locali. C 'è un vino tipico vero né se Rebecca o li bevono tutti i vini perché e dove si svolglie la fiera vinniteli? Allora che buona domanda, io bevo tutto ma soprattutto per me i vini preferiti sono i vini dei Toscana. Questa è dove abitare la mia cuore, secondo me, e quindi ho sempre una vannaccia oppure anche un San Giavese nella cantina, ma qui, perché in Italia si beve sempre la cosa locale, è sempre qui a Varone, a Volpale Cella, a Marone, suave eccetera, forse, forse una una Franciacote, una Lagana. Per me preferisco sempre un Vapolecello un po' classico, non dell 'amorone, perché per me questo è troppo forte. Preferito avere un Vapolecello più leggere, con un po' di acidità anche. C 'è una zona molto particolare in cui ci sono le sabbie vocana E quindi per me questo è il Vopole cella migliore, perché ha un mineralità che adoro, proprio adoro. Quindi se non c 'è un avanaccio, oppure un sangiovese di motopuciano, sempre abbiamo un Vopole cella classico in cantina. Qual è un detto o un modo di dire che ti fa dire "questa persona è di Verona"? Allora, di Verona è interessante perché ovviamente non sono da Verona, dell 'origine. E ricordavo una volta quando ho parlato con due amici che stavano litigando perché c 'è una frase in dialetto qui in cui si può dire che qualcuno è un po' pazzo. Si usa questa frase "fuore con balcone" se ricordo bene. E il mio amico, Erinico, ha detto questa frase. La mia amica, no, non è "fuore con balcone", è "fuore con il legno". Erinico ha detto "no, non è" e c 'era questo litgo, litgato hanno litgato perché in realtà Enrico è veronese, me hanno è da Friuli e quindi c 'è un piccolo cambio in questa frase tra i due diletti, quindi questo è un esempio non per il vino, non per il bevande, ma che per me è interessante. Interessante, sì. Sono anche curiosa di sapere da dove viene in ingolterra quali detti e bevande locali ricordi? Questo è molto interessante. A parte del mio accento che è molto londense, infatti, sono nata una parte del Novest, a è una parte molto industriale. In questo parte è sempre birra. Un tipo di birra si chiama brown come marone. Non è molto buono, secondo me, lo so. Ma c 'è una frase che io usavo molto quando ero giovane. E' anche un po' dopo che che riferisca della giacca che si porta dopo hai alzato il gomato, dopo hai bevuto troppo, forse, che significa che non serve una giacca propria, perché tu hai il vino, il caldo, il rischeldimento del vino. E ho detto questa frase al mio merito e lui non è mai conosceva questa frase, non mai sapeva, non è da Londra, è proprio dalla mia parte, quindi molto interessante. Pensavo che fosse una frase in generale che tutti usano, ma no, non è vero, è proprio del questo parte di Middlesbrough e il giacco di vino. A quella parte, come si dice "andiamo per una birra"? Questo è una frase di diletto si dice sempre "ganin for a brown", quindi andiamo per una marone, ma con questo accento, non so, è brutto. Non è brutto per me, ma forse per gli altri, ma "ganin per a brown". "Ganin for a brown". Sì. Adoro. Rebecca, ci siamo riuniti recentemente per la fiera di Wine & Hip -Hop a Bushwick, New York, per favore puoi raccontare ai nostri ascoltatori tutto sul Wine & Hip -Hop e come sei arrivato a lavorare con il suo fondatore Germaine Stone? Allora io ho ascoltato il suo podcast Wine & Hip -Hop Non so, forse quattro anni fa perché io stavo usando la musica hip -hop durante le mie lezioni per spegliare i vini e sono inamorata con questo podcast e ci siamo incontrati a Valona infatti durante una fiera e ho detto a lui che lui ha un progetto molto interessante, che mi piace molto perché è un modo per avere un assemblaggio di due culture che in realtà hanno molto in comunale. Per me è molto interessante i miei due due cose che uso anch 'io e poi abbiamo fatto anche un podcast insieme per la podcast "Running for the Wine" per parlare della cosa di musica e corse e ho spegliato il mio modo di insegnare con questo rap hip -hop e abbiamo suggerito qualche lui ha detto "Ah, facciamo insieme !" e quindi per un anno sono con lui per fare tutti i progetti perché abbiamo un podcast, un serie a YouTube e anche, come ha detto tu, questo festival, questo fiera, due giorni durante il novembre che mettere insieme le celture di vino e hip -hop con un masterclass, con degostazione, con le scene, eccetera. Molto interessante, secondo me, con i effesionanti della musica e anche il culturo divino. Era meraviglioso. Grazie. Questa, questa fiera. Grazie. Anche il tuo podcast "Running for the Wine" sono cantata dal concetto dello scambio di informazioni con il tuo cospite Morgan Ritchie, lui era un novellino divino e tu eri una coridore principiante, no? Sì, è vero. Quando abbiamo cominciato, sapevo niente di corse. un corso per solo sei mesi, forse anzi sette, ma non di più, ma Morgan è un... non so se si dice "corriere", probabilmente no, uno che corre sempre e quindi lui ha più conoscenza del questo parte del mondo, ma io, No, ma ovviamente ho una conoscenza del mondo e del vino e lui ha voluto di sapere più del vino e io dal corso e quindi abbiamo fatto questo podcast perché secondo me ci sono teme insieme, il modo di training eccetera, in comune frase anche e anche conosco tante persone nel mondo del vino che corano. Quindi per me è un 'opportunità di parlare con tante gente che vorremmo avere queste due cose insieme. Oltre a ottenere il dottorato e diventare sia un esperto divino e un podcaster, hai fatto altre due cose che molte persone sognano solo, trasferirsi in un altro paese e imparare una nuova lingua. Vorrei che raccontassi ai nostri ascoltatori come è stato sognare di trasferirsi a Verona e puoi riuscire a farlo, decidere di imparare l 'italiano e puoi imparare l 'italiano. Ovviamente per vivere in Italia è importante avere la lingua, ma infatti questa per me era la seconda parte. Ho fatto prima la trasferta. Io e mio marito ci siamo innamorati di Italia. Non so, 15 anni fa abbiamo deciso di provare a avere questa vita in Italia. Abbiamo programmato dieci anni, un programma, uno piano, per essere qui. Ma c 'è sempre un po' di buon fortuna, perché stavamo vicino, ma non all 'ultimo step, l 'ultimo parte del questo programma. Per Fortuna stavo a Verona, per una fiera, e ho parlato con qualcuno, ho avuto i talenti per lei per fare un nuovo progetto dell 'educazione e quindi per fortuna ho avuto questa opportunità di trasferirmi a Varona anche per fortuna con un 'azienda internazionale in cui la prima lingua in realtà era inglese, ma non è possibile vivere senza la lingua soprattutto a Varona perché è è internazionale, ma non molto. Non è come Milano o Roma, dove c 'è un tanti diplomati, eccetera. Quindi è importante imparare la lingua. Per fortuna ho ricevuto un consiglio da un 'altra bascetrice. Monica mi ha suggerito un insegnante che è bravissima. ho cominciato ogni pausa pranzo a fare le lezioni eccetera e dopo un po' di tempo i miei colleghi hanno detto "no basta parlare in inglese con te" è il momento per avere più coraggio per parlare in italiano e quindi ho cominciato piano piano che ho spagliato sempre tanti orore come adesso è ancora, perché ho spagliato sempre, ma spaglio sempre, ma è così con una lingua che non è la madre, le lingue, le cose più importante è avere il coraggio di parlare, anche se è difficile. Hai molto coraggio, chiaramente, chiaramente molto, moltissimo coraggio. Amiro è apprezzo molto, il tuo molto, educazione al vino non dovrebbe essere secco, Per favore, dimiti più della tua filosofia educativa. Ok, io non sono una che posso essere secco, senza umore, senza gioia durante la mia lezione. Per me è importante avere un passione grande per le cose che fare. È vino, in realtà è una cosa semplice, è un fermentazione delle uve, è alcolico, quindi come è possibile essere sempre serio con questa cosa? Per me non è possibile. Ovviamente c 'è anche un complessità, c 'è tanto da imparare, ma se tu non hai un modo per imparare, più facile, più generoso, più appassionata, è molto difficile. Quindi per me, nell 'aula, è importante essere aperta. È importante guardarti durante l 'elezione, perché in questo modo tu hai un memoria più bene secondo me, per memoria meglio della tutte le cose, quindi provo, non se, se succede ma provo ad essere una donna con cui è possibile imparare con un po' di umore, un po' di gioia, un po' di... non molto serio. Capelli verdi. - Sì, esatto, sì. - Come si chiama il tuo punk band quando eri giovane? - Questa forza è difficile per un gente italiano. Si chiama "Too Much Ruth" perché c 'è questo parolo "ruthless" essere senza, come si spiegare, senza esitazione è possibile fare tutto in spontaneo con coraggio e quando canto senza ballena? Sì, quando canto non sono così quindi abbiamo chiamato il band, chiamato Too Much Ruth, perché non ho molto Ruthless. Qual è il miglior consiglio per una persona che ti dice "vore sapere di più sul vino". Ah, questa è una buona domanda molto interessante perché molti hanno questa paura, questa ansia, soprattutto all 'inizio del viaggio, del mondo del vino. Prova a cercare un negozio indipendente, un negozio piccolo, in cui è possibile parlare direttamente con un gente che ha l 'affezionante, se è un affinasiato di vino, perché è poi spiega che vuole capire più del vino, ma adesso non ha la conoscenza. Se si dice così, si spiega così, è possibile per la gente di capire che vorrei o vuole avere una conoscenza, ma non ancora, avrò, e quindi è possibile forse anche dire il budget, quindi ho dieci euro, venti euro per un bottiglio di vino e anche spieghe forse i sapori che si piace, mai nel cibo oppure altro da bevanda, quindi metti li rossi, la pone, oppure plugne, mele, per, In questo modo è possibile capire il palato e consigliere un vino, secondo me. E anche i negozi piccoli vuole avere un 'inconnezione con i ospiti, con i clienti, vuole che tu ritorni e quindi è importante avere un consiglio giusto. Buon consiglio, Rebecca, grazie. Grazie mille per... Non so se ho spiegato bene, perché spaglio sempre la grammatica, eccetera. Mi dispiace per gli ascoltati, ma... Anche io abbiamo qui con tutto il coraggio di imparare una cosa nuova. Adesso mi serve un bicchiari divino. Va bene, va bene i complimenti l 'italiano tuo. Grazie Miri per parlare con me e per tutto il tuo lavoro per aprire il mondo divino a tutti, metterò tutte le informazioni per i tuoi progetti nelle notte del questo episodio, a tutti i nostri ascoltatori, grazie mille, ovunque tu vada e qualunque cosa tu beva, ricorda di goderti la vita e di non smettere mai di imparare. Puoi trovare modo di bere in Blogspot, TikTok, Instagram e YouTube. Se ami il progetto, puoi diventare sostenitori del programma su Patreon e accedere più contenuti esclusivi ed educativi. Le informazioni sul www .mododibere .com La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ercilia Prosperi per la banda OU. Puedes escuchar su www .oomusic .bandcamp .com La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto, registrato, e montato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Steve Silverstein ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S1E2 Dr Rebecca Lawrence Runs for The Wine URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e2-dr-rebecca-lawrence/ Last updated: 2026-08-26T03:37:50.000Z [Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e2-dott-ssa-rebecca-lawrence-2/) Dr. Rebecca Lawrence is a wine educator, running enthusiast, podcaster, and the Head of Editorial for Wine and Hip Hop. She and Rose Thomas discuss minor(?) wording differences in insults from Verona and Friuli, Rebecca's BBC accent, rap in wine study, and the best advice for people with dreams to get started in wine or any other grand adventure. For more information on Rebecca's work with Jermaine Stone at Wine and Hip Hop, check out the Wine and Hip Hop website: [www.wineandhiphop.com](http://www.wineandhiphop.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Listen to Rebecca's podcast, Running for the Wine: [https://kite.link/running-drinking-and-knowing](https://kite.link/running-drinking-and-knowing?ref=mododibere.com) **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors.) View Transcript Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister, and I'm extremely pleased to interview today's guest, Dr. Rebecca Lawrence. Rebecca is a wine educator, running enthusiasts, podcast and the head of editorial for wine and hip hop here at Modo di Bere. I always remind our listeners to never stop learning. No one could embody this advice more than Dr. Rebecca Lawrence. Alongside her many certifications, Rebecca is my fellow Italian wine ambassador. We bonded over our mutual passion for Italian wine, a passion that actually led Rebecca to relocate from England to Verona, learn a new language and start a new life. As we know, this is a show about local drinks and local sayings. Rebecca, is there that one drink you definitely always have in Verona? Or is the answer just all the wines because the enormous Vignetilli wine fair takes place there? Hey, Rose. Oh, So many wines, so many wines. I mean, there's always wine in the rack. One of the things I have found really interesting about relocating from London where I spent, you know, gosh, too many years to mention, into Italy is going from a market where you can get basically any wine that you want from anywhere in the world to Italy which is so much more focused on completely local. Everyone here drinks local so mostly what you find here in Verona are wines from the Veneto, so the Valpolicellas, the Suaves, the Amorones, that kind of thing. You might venture a little bit outside of the area, you might get some Lugana, the cross -regional Appalachian, you might get some flantua quarter but they drink really local and that has definitely been a bit of a change of scene for me particularly as actually the one thing that I always like to have in my rack is vernaccio di san gimignano. I love the white wines of san gimignano so I'm afraid sorry veneto but I'm always reaching out to my friends in Tuscany to send me either vernaccio or I'm afraid the vino nobiles from multiple giano which is where my heart truly lives. Is there a saying, a word or a piece of slang a person can say that makes you go that person is from Verona? I do remember unfortunately it's not actually related to king. But I do remember having a heated debate with two of my colleagues about a kind of moda di dire about whether you're whether someone is crazy. And the kind of local veneto saying for that is foricon balkone, which means like outside with the balcony. But a friend of mine who is actually from Friuli, their phrase Foric on l 'Itleño, so outside with the wood. And they had this really heated debate about which was correct. And these are regions that are very close to each other, but they just got so completely wound up. It was about a 45 minute heated debate. And I was like, but neither of these sayings really makes sense. But that always makes me laugh when I think about sort of local sayings. In terms of an Italian saying, one of the very first idioms that I learned was the idea of if you've had too much to drink, the thing you've done is you've raised your elbow. And I think my Italian teacher knows me too well, because it was one of the first modi di dire that I learned, which is I raised my elbow last night or sat on miogometer, Just to warn her before a lesson that maybe she should go easy on me. Oh my goodness now one of the first Italian friends of mine that started teaching me about the wealth of Local language in Italy was a friend from Rome and he I wonder if this is where the saying comes from He told me that his grandfather And the waiter would come around at the restaurant with the grappa. His grandfather would reach, you know, underneath the elbow of the waiter as he was pouring to say more, you know, to like, to change the angle of the bottle so that, you know, so it's like, I wonder, because I wonder if the act of pouring and the, the elbow and the bottle going, you know, right into the glass is, we'll have to, I mean, honestly, every single one of these sayings, as you were mentioning with the, I love that there were two different versions in Friuli versus Veneto, and I find every single one of these sayings could, you know, be an entire study. So we'll have to add that to the list of asking Italians we meet from various regions if they say something about the elbow and what they think it means. I'm also curious what region you're from in England and is there a local drink or local saying that you can share from back home? Oh yeah so despite the accent which I have spent years honing to be my my BBC voice I'm actually from the northeast so I'm from a kind of steel industrial town on the northeast coast called Middlesbrough, made famous probably for, certainly for your English speaking listeners for the film Billy Elliot, which was filmed there. So I'm from there. And beer is probably the thing that most people drank growing up. And specifically, there's a beer from a town kind of slightly further north, a city of Newcastle called Newke Brown. So you would often you'd go into a pub and order a pint of brown, which doesn't sound particularly great. And in terms of phrases, I, I hadn't realized how a bit like actually in Italy, how phrases are so particular and so connected to place. Because when I met the person who's now my husband, I used a phrase without even thinking one evening and he just did not know what I was talking about. He had never heard this. He was convinced this is something I had completely made up and I was like, no, no, no, this is a phrase. This is what everybody says. And it's the idea of having your wine jacket or your beer jacket. So, you know, the Northeast is famous for people going out in short sleeves and tiny skirts and tiny dresses because you're going to have your beer jacket later in the night once you've had some alcohol you warm up so you don't need it and I remember using this phrase to him when we were going out somewhere I said oh don't worry I'll have my wine jacket and he just looked so stunned so completely blank and had never heard of it because he's from a completely different place so yeah that's that's the one that always makes me laugh and is so ingrained to me but Lots of people, I mean, that's not a thing. I was like, it's definitely a thing. - That is wonderful. I wonder if you can like close your eyes, go back home, put on your old accent and order a new key brown. - Well, if you want to do it truly in the accent, now my accent is not actually from Newcastle, but several of my best friends are. And if you were going to ask someone if they wanted to go out and have a drink, you'd ask, you're ganning for a brown. You're gan them. You're ganning for a brown. You're ganning for a brown. That's one. Are you going for a glass of brown? You're ganning. Does it mean like gunning, like a gun or just that means to go? It's the abbreviation for going, but it's spelt with a hard A. So, ganning. Oh, that's marvelous. Thank you so much for sharing those. Rebecca, we reunited recently at the Wine and Hip Hop Festival in Bushwick, New York. Could you tell our listeners around the world all about wine and hip hop and how you came to work with its creator, Jermaine Stone? Yeah, that happened over a glass of wine, actually. A glass of wine in a podcast recording got me into the wine and hip -hop world. I had long been a fan of what he was doing, super into wine and very much into hip -hop, although I do not consider myself a connoisseur having met the rest of the wine and hip -hop team. I realize I've got some way to go. But I was using rap in the classroom as an educator to demystify wine for people, to give them an extra tool for learning because I just found it easier. I found it really easy to remember verses. And during a podcast recording with Jermaine, I was very lucky to have him on my running podcast. We were talking about, you know, this idea of both wine culture and hip hop culture, being a little bit exclusive, being a little bit difficult for people to get into and ways that you can open those two cultures up. One of the things I love about wine and hip -hop is that is what he was doing. So I very fortunately was lucky to pitch a couple of the ideas that I'd had and he asked me to come on board and join the team about a year ago now. It was a huge honour. As I said I love what he's doing and this idea of demystifying both cultures, whilst also elevating both cultures. And I guess, like you say, the culmination of that was the Wine and Hip Hop Festival. The first ever of its sort held over two days in Bushwick in November, the gosh, can't remember the dates, 12th and 13th. That's terrible. It's such a blur. But we did six events, all of which blending personalities from wine and hip -hop industry kind of legends from both cultures coming together for educational events, for food and wine pairing, for dinners to kind of demonstrate that these are two cultures that talk to each other that have a lot of things in common and that we should celebrate and I think probably my kind of the best way to explain that in action was we did a New York state of wine tasting Where we talked about the teua of New York State and the wines and the teua of New York hip -hop Which is so closely connected to which neighborhood you grew up in and and who you grew up listening to and we had Tracks being paired with different wines and different terroirs from New York State. And there are so many things like that that these two industries and cultures have in common that it just makes sense to us. I love this idea of expanding the concept of terroir, which is something that I'm doing with this project, with the romantic conception that the local language is part of the terroir, Or at least that there is some connection between the preservation efforts, for instance, to maintain a local language and stop it from becoming a dead language or, you know, a dialect that, you know, people are told to stop speaking. You know, you need to speak real, whatever the main language is. As you know, compared to the, particularly in particularly in Italy, and elsewhere, the preservation of local talktownist grapes and wines and styles that may have fallen out of fashion, but have such a long history and tradition. And so when people come to replant those things and preserve those cultural items, I like to think about the terroir of language as well as the terroir of Wine. So I love that expansion. So Wine and Hip Hop also is a podcast. I'd love to hear just a little bit about the podcast. And also I noticed these wonderful YouTube episodes, tasty notes from the streets. Could you tell us a little bit about besides the festival, the Wine and Hip Hop project? Sure. I do love what you're saying about language. I just want to, before I dive into talking about the podcast, because one of the things that we also did at the festival was talk about the language of wine and how you present wines and language and complexity of language in both wine and in hip -hop. So I think it is, it is absolutely, like you say, completely part of the teua and part of where you're from and where your cultural understanding is from. So the podcast. So the podcast is how it kind of all originated. Jermaine started it to have these conversations with people either in wine or in hip hop. The initial idea being that the pairing of a wine with a hip hop track and a discussion around around that and whoever the guest is, whether they're in white or hip hop, sort of talking about their connections to each culture. So that's how it kind of started. And then yeah, we've got, from that came a YouTube series, which is Wine and Hip Hop TV, which is the visual version of that. So allowing a little bit more of a deep dive, allowing our listeners to see those interviews happening in the actual studio or in the place. And then we have, I could say, Tasting Notes from the streets, which is our food and wine pairing series, very much taking street food culture or neighborhood hood culture and food, and pairing it with fine wines from around the world. So demonstrating that I think probably one of my favorites is the chopped cheese episode. So you can walk into any bodega anywhere in New York. I have recently experience this and just order a chop cheese which is an amazingly cool dish which I wish I had more of and we paired that with northern rhone wines made from syrup so a completely staple neighborhood you know sort of six bucks seven buck food with potentially a $50 bottle of wine and talked about why those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive, why you can drink these incredible wines with these great local foods and how basically wine is for any occasion that you make it for. And we recently have been expanding that concept around the world. So we spent most of June traveling in Bordeaux and in Burgundy, shooting content in these very prestigious regions. Again, demonstrating that street food, everyday common foods, burgers, grilled cheese, can go with these really incredible wines, and that they're actually very natural pairings. I think we've got the Burgundy episode coming out soon. We did Enna Bianco and Fried Fish. Just the possibilities are endless and I love working on that show because just the conversations we have in the office about what food are we going to try next and what wine would we put in it? I mean, they're just some of the best conversations. They obviously get derailed constantly by me getting hungry. Oh my god, it sounds like a dream. I like to, we definitely need to bring Jermaine on and just be all in a room together because we're also doing all these combination shows, you know, pairings, right? Wine and hip hop, wine and language, in my case, and also wine and running. You also have your own podcast, Running for the Wine. I really love the concept of the information exchange that you have with your co -host, Morgan Richie. He was a wine rookie and you were a running rookie, correct? Yeah. Yeah, so I was just getting into running but didn't know anything about it and kept going out of my runs and just finding these connections between themes in my runs and themes in wine and quite a lot of language actually, this idea of common language, things that I would think about on my runs would spark an idea about how we talk about wine or how we talk about training for exams and so I kind of put the word out that I really wanted to see if other people had this approach and I was directed towards Morgue who is a very successful runner, has been running for many years, he's you know actually fast and very good at it but didn't know anything about wine and he lives in a wine region, he's in Washington state, was really keen to know more about it, but didn't know where to go. And I thought, well, if I'm looking for these connections and finding them, maybe other people are, maybe that's something interesting to explore on a podcast. So I basically twisted his arm and decided that we were gonna do a podcast. And actually, funnily enough, the first ever episode, if people go back and listen to it, that's the first time I'd ever spoken to Morgh in person. I'd never heard his voice. It was a huge risk. He's got the perfect voice for a podcast. But we literally, we had five minutes before we started the podcast and like, Hey, I'm Rebecca. I do this. He was like, Hey, I'm Morgh. I do this. And then we started, which is crazy to think that it went so well given that risk. But we have a very good editor. Oh, that's it sounds very authentic, the process of getting to know each other. It's and I love the podcast. I think it's great. I love what you guys talk about finding those connections. So besides becoming a PhD, a wine expert and a podcaster, you have done two other things that many people only dream about moving to another country and learning a new language. I'd love for you to bring to life for our listeners, what it was like to dream of moving to Verona and then do it and desire to learn Italian and then learn Italian. What were the logistics of those accomplishments? - That's a great question. So my husband and I fell in love with Italy around, God, it's such a corny story, but around the time we fell in love with each other. And because we had this love for this place, we decided that we would like to move there. So we basically, being problem solvers and coming from that sort of very structured academic background, we wrote out a 10 -year plan of, you know, this is where we need to get to, and this is where we are and then we broke it down into all the little tiny steps that we needed to do. And if anyone is thinking about taking on a huge project like that, I highly recommend this approach because you just see incremental progress all the time to getting to that point. But there's also a huge amount of luck involved and I was very fortunate to just be in the right place at the right time with the right skill set for a job that came up in Verona. Now, it had originally been our plan to be in Umbria. That's the kind of place we would like to be eventually. No shade on Verona, we love it, but my heart is in the countryside. But I was in Verona having a conversation about wine education and various things and was very fortunate to be offered a job with Vinicius International working on their education program and that was just the last that kind of skip the last three steps that we had which was you know learn the language find a job. I was very fortunate that I was offered a job in an international company So we were able to come to Italy and I could learn the language in the place. Now I had a little bit of Italian coming in but certainly not enough to work in an Italian office. So there was that huge, huge piece of the universe gifting me an opportunity and us grabbing it. In terms of how the Italian goes, If you work in an office with mostly Italians, they expect, as they rightly should, that eventually you're going to learn the language, that you are going to come in, not just with English. And so I was very fortunate that actually another one of the even Italy International Academy ambassadors gave me details of her Italian teacher, who is very, very good and very fun and very flexible. And I started taking Italian lessons, basically every lunch break that I had, and forced myself to have absolutely awful, stunted, difficult conversations in Italian, constantly with my colleagues, getting the pronunciation wrong and the grammar wrong, but They are, and still are, incredibly patient with me. And we're incredibly excited that I was so thrilled to sort of slowly be able to communicate. And we definitely had, and still actually beat myself up about my lack of Italian, even though now I would say it's pretty good. But I just had to eventually start speaking it. And suddenly, I think probably about about a year, maybe a year and a half in, had that realization of like, oh, oh, I just had a conversation with someone in Italian. Oh, I couldn't do that before. And that really showed to me that even if I didn't feel like I was making progress, I was. And thankfully for the patients of my colleagues was having that opportunity to speak all the time. They basically got to a point, I think, maybe it was my second Christmas in the office, and they all decided. They kind of got together the group that I worked with most commonly and said, "Okay, when we come back in January, we're not speaking English to you anymore." But nope, that's it, we're cutting you off. You've just got to speak Italian. And it was Terrible. But it worked. So I highly take the plunge. If you if you want to learn the language, just it's really embarrassing. And it's really hard when you start out. But that that moment where you managed to order something in another language or crack a joke, or when you suddenly realize you've had a little bit of a conversation without realizing it. There is no feeling like that. That's marvelous. And you know, we learn by making mistakes, that's how we learn, you know, the word that you went out in on the spelling bee is a word you will never forget how to spell. So you know, I think taking the shame out of it, you know, this is something I'd love to talk about with a linguist in another episode, but you know, people talk about neuroplasticity of the brain and children learning language and, you know, I feel that it must be so that it's also the lack of shame in children that they're not so worried about making a mistake that also helps younger people really learn quickly. So I'm actually curious about being a beginning runner in that experience, to just go back to that for just a second, letting yourself be a beginner in that way as well and having that sort of humbling experience and then having a breakthrough where you, you realise you've got it. So I commend you for trying new things and becoming so successful at them. I mean, if you saw me running, you wouldn't think I'm successful. But I kind of, with the running, just got to the point where I gave up caring. And in that kind of continuing to learn, I have taken the plunge for 2023 and gotten myself an actual proper running coach. And I was so, I was so scared about reaching out and saying, you know, I would like help with my running, I have these goals, but I'm super slow. And everyone says they're a slow runner. I am a slow runner like truly very very slow and I sent all my stats across this coach and I said you know what I what I lack in speed I make up for an enthusiasm you know if I haven't scared you off love to work with you and I got a very funny email back saying well I definitely like a challenge and I was like yeah so you're saying I'm slow but that's cool but he didn't Back away. He was like, I like a challenge, you know, if you're willing to work on it You can work on it. And I think that's true across Everything that we do whether that's that's language or running or learning about things if you say sometimes you just Have to go into it being aware like so. I do think This discussion of shame is really interesting because it's absolutely true in language of being And I'm still like that. I'm still too scared to take an official appointment in case I get the words wrong and I won't join a running club because I'm worried about being too slow. And I'm also worried about the terms in Italian. So there's like a double whammy. And I think if you can somehow get yourself past that and go, well, it doesn't matter. Even if I feel it, it doesn't matter because if I just take that first step, if I just have that first conversation, the next one's going to be easier, and the next one's going to be easier, and eventually, it doesn't matter how slowly you speak or how slowly you run, you're still doing it. Doing it is everything. That is wonderful advice. We actually will both be putting ourselves to the test in the Italian version of this podcast in a little bit. So listeners can head over to the Italian language version language version of MotoDBerry. And, you know, I don't know if people at this point are using the podcast in this way, but if you are a language learner and you want to do a side by side, we're also going to, both of us non -native speakers, you know, are going to bravely record the same interview in Italian in a few minutes. So that is also available both for People who speak Italian and people who want to speak Italian to come and check that out and and watch To to shameless souls in action We get things done Things that people can be intimidated about getting into but shouldn't have to be I Really admire and appreciate your motto wine education shouldn't be dry? - I just, I got really fed up of people being scared of education, feeling like those doors weren't open to them because maybe an educator didn't look like them and didn't sound like them. I think if you don't see yourself represented, you don't know that that's something that's open to you, whether that's being an educator or being a student in the classroom and especially with wine, it's always held up as this really complex, challenging world full of, certainly until very recently, old white men. And it shouldn't be like that. I mean, one, it's fermented grapes, like it's alcohol, it's booze, like you can't take that too seriously. And also you can approach something in a non -serious way while still maintaining that the information within it is incredibly serious and yes, it is complex. And maybe what we should be doing is not trying to make this more complex than it is, but breaking it down in ways that are approachable and the big problem that wine has at the moment is people aren't drinking as much wine. You know producers need to sell wine and we need consumers who see themselves in the wine culture, who feel recognized and spoken for and I mean that's one of the big reasons for wine in hip -hop and that was my approach to education. that, you know, you should have a small green -haired Northern woman, although don't have the accent, but hey, that's another story. Talking about wine, using rap, using stupid jokes, trying to help you remember this really complex information in a way that's not complicated. And if you've been in my classroom, you know, I cannot take myself too seriously. I mean, seriously, you just can't. I mean, I'm, like I say, I'm a small pink -haired white girl who raps in her classroom. No one can take that seriously. But if that means, you know, if someone remembers your joke, if someone remembers the rap you made about the Predacat, and that helps them pass that qualification, that makes them realize that they are capable of being in that space. That's what educators should be doing and I have to thank actually WSET who many people I think are worried about the the spaces of qualifications but it was the London school when I approached them to educate that just jumped on it and I remember having a conversation with one of the it's actually one of the Italian specialists at the London school And he said, "We need people like you in the classroom. Yes, we would love to have you teaching." And I was like, "Great." He's like, "We need people with dyed hair and tattoos and a different approach to make sure people still think that education is for them." - That's great, yeah, this is for you. - And I also, I mean, I get that from my dad as well. He's a huge inspiration. - I'm remembering now, speaking of the dyed hair that I meant to ask you two questions. Do you remember the Prada Cut wrap? Is this wrapping wine education immortalized somewhere on the internet? Yes. I don't know if the Prada Cut wrap is. - Oh dear, I might need a glass of wine. (laughing) - That sounds great, and just for our listeners, WSET stands for Wine Spirits Educational Trust, and that is one of the ways that people can learn more about wine, and Rebecca is a teacher with them now in Italy, correct? - In Italy and in London, I still maintain my position in and so I do mostly for them a lot of remote student assessment but yeah I do I couldn't ever after such a positive opened armed approach I could never leave London behind. What was the name of your youthful punk band that you were in? Probably the the funniest name if you're interested in language because I mean I don't know how you touched on this so sort of prophetically, but the my favorite band name was Too Much Ruth, because I was once told I wasn't ruthless enough as a singer that I had too much Ruth. I love that. That's great. And you were a you're a bass player in a punk rock band. And that is someone who should definitely be in wine and, um, and go all the way with wine. So, you know, as someone we haven't, we haven't, um, really gotten into all of your many certifications and accomplishments. Um, we can put some of those in the notes for the episode. You know, you've developed this deep expertise in, in wine. Um, so what is the best piece of advice you as an educator have for someone who says to you, "Oh, I know nothing about wine," or "I wish I knew more." Normally, my piece of advice, if you're trying to get into wine, if you have an independent wine store near you, is to go to your independent wine store and say, "Hey, I know nothing about wine, but I would like to try something," and be very clear about what your budget is you know say I've got ten dollars to spend I've got twenty dollars to spend what can you recommend for me and if they ask you what kind of things you like and you don't know how to respond I think a great way of thinking about it is what else you enjoy eating and drinking like if you really like you know cranberry soda for example Say to them well, I don't really drink much wine, but I would normally drink something like a cranberry soda And they'll go okay great, then you probably like something. That's a little bit highly acidic with red fruit flavors That is just giving them a different way of your Let's just giving them your palette Just in a different form and the reason I say go to independence is They want you to be happy. I worked in independent retail for seven years We don't want you to be intimidated when you walk in We want you to be happy with what you purchase because that probably means you're gonna come back and that's our goal and also We're like me. We love to talk about wine. We love to share new discoveries There is no budget too small Most of the people who work in wine don't have a lot of money You know, they may like to talk about drinking burgundy, but normally when someone else is paying for it. So don't be afraid of how small your budget is, and don't be afraid to use other markers from what you eat and drink to help someone help you find that wine for you. 'Cause that's all completely valid. If you like highly acidic or bitter things or red fruits, or you always cuts when they're in season. Chances are you're going to like those flavors in a wine. They're just the same flavors just because it's not in a wine doesn't mean it's not valid. So that would be my very long -winded piece of advice. I've never heard anyone quite put it that way. That is so helpful. I think to people can be very intimidated not knowing the terms. That is such a great way to to get in there and let someone know what you like, and again, you know, what you like, you're the one who's going to be drinking that glass of wine. So, you know, taste is something that certainly can be, you know, honed and developed, but at the end of the day, I think the goal is enjoyment. Yeah, absolutely. And what you like is what you like. There's no right or wrong answer for that. Yeah. Thank you so much, Rebecca for speaking with me today and for all your work to open the world of wine to everyone to make connections instead of disconnections. I will put all the information for your projects in the notes for this episode to all of our listeners thank you wherever you go and whatever you drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Thank you for listening to Modo De Berry, the podcast for local drinks and local sayings. If you love the show, please take a moment to write a five -star review. Find Modo De Berry on YouTube, Blogspot, Instagram, and TikTok for even more unique and encouraging drinks and language content. If you'd love for the show to continue and grow, support MotoDBerry on Patreon and unlock bonus episodes. Music for the show is composed by Arcilia Prosperi and performed by the band OU. You can purchase their recordings at oumusic .bandcapt .com. Engañándose, déjase para ese mismo Cuella de tango frío al recortar Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister. Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein. ](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Go Visit Irpinia ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e3-teresa-bruno-and-ilaria-petitto/) [ Don't Drink Water Ever ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/modo-di-bere/) ### Jackson Heights URL: https://www.mododibere.com/travel-show/jackson-heights/ Last updated: 2026-08-16T07:55:29.000Z In the Modo di Bere TV pilot, Rose Thomas vists the most linguistically diverse location in the history of the planet: Jackson Heights, Queens. ### ▷S1E1 Modo di Bere Italiano URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e1-trailer-non-bere-acqua/ Last updated: 2026-08-17T02:37:12.000Z Presentando il nuovo podcast, Modo di Bere Italiano, una serie di interviste creata da Rose Thomas Bannister. Rose Thomas parla di modo di dire italiani, spagnoli e americani di Filadelfia con un comune denominatore: è più salutate bere acqua o vino? ![](https://www.mododibere.com/content/images/2026/08/rose-thomas-in-verona-format-original-9.jpg) - **La trascrizione generata automaticamente.** (Si prega di scusare gli errori.)L 'acqua ha frate i ponti. L 'acqua che buine fa i crozi. L 'acqua fa ruggine. L 'acqua marcisce L 'acqua fa marcire i ponti. L 'acqua fa bene alle ranne. L 'acqua fa la ruggine. L 'acqua marcisce modo di bere, è un podcast anti idratazione? Non esattamente, ho imperato queste quattro frasi da quattro italiani, uno di Sperlonga, uno di Friuli, una di Orvietto e uno di Venezia. Mi chiamo Rose Thomas Bannister, sono un Italian Wine Ambassador e un insegnante di sommiglietto. Vivo a New York City e la cosa che preferisco fare è imparare. Se vuoi ascoltare modo di bere, avrai l 'opportunità di imparare con me mentre intervisto molti personaggi affascinanti. I miei ospiti includono vitticoltori, baristi, bevitori di te, scienziati, cowboys, musicisti e chiunque abbia qualcosa da insegnare su bevande, linguaggi e storie che si trovano in fondo a un bicchiere divino e di una frase in dialetto. Puoi trovare modo di bere in Blogspot, Tiktok, Instagram e YouTube per più contenuti esclusivi ed educativi. Ho iniziato di studiare l 'italiano lavorando nei ristoranti e dai produttori divino in visita a New York. Invece di insegnarmi dove la stazione dei treni hanno iniziato a insegnarmi i loro detti. ho scoperto che lo scambio di detti è il miglior modo per fare amicizia. Sono rimasta affascinata da tutti i diversi dialetto, nello stesso modo in cui mi sono innamorata dalla vastità delle uve italiane. Una passione che ho scoperto in Italia ha che ora mi sta portando in giro per il mondo alla ricerca di bevande locali e lingue locali. Condivido ciò che scopro in inglese e italiano. Se preferite ascoltare queste interviste in inglese, ho creato un altro podcast, si chiama Moro di Bere. Puoi vedere le informazioni per versión inglesa en la noche de este episodio. Apenas fuera de Granada, en el sur de la España, he encontrado Rafa. Me ha enseñado un otro deto, esta vez en español, que se referirá al agua que marcha el lenguaje. Debo explicar a Rafa el significado de este proverbio. se l 'acqua pudre lo madero, quanto más los cuerpos. So, we have to drink wine, this is better than water. And referring to wine, we say also, con buen vino, se anda el camino. With good red wine, you can walk along the way, you know. Quasi es i cosa tu dici e quasi es i cosa tu bevi, credo che il sano consiglio di questi deti sia questo. È prezzo alla vita, divertirsi e di vitale importanza. Non avevo mai sentito una seconda parte di questo detto prima di conoscere Riccardo. Ecco una registrazione di Riccardo e dei suoi amici che mi insegno la versione del proverbio in veneziano. La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ercilia Prosperi per la banda OU. OU in sado significa uovo. Questa banda avven... andiamo in ciascuna delle venti regioni. Ho cominciato subito a chiedermi se ci sono tanti modi di dire andiamo quanti sono gli italiani. Hai una bevanda locale o un detto locale da condividere? Visita il mio sito www mododipere .com e enviammi un 'email. Puoi anche enviarmi un messaggio su Instagram. Grazie per avermi ascoltato. Non preoccuparti, non siamo davvero anti idratazione. Ovviamente condividerò anche detti meravigliosi da tutti gli Stati Uniti. Lascerò I would like Liz to have the last word on her local drink, "L 'acqua" pronounced with the philly accent. Llevo bajo el brazo payaso que permanece dejándose llevar Uno otro se engañando se dejanse para ese mismo La musica per il podcast è stata composta da Ersilia Prosperi per la banda Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com). Prodotto, registrato, e montato da Rose Thomas Bannister. Steve Silverstein ha fornito assistenza audio. ### ▷S1E1 Modo di Bere Trailer URL: https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/modo-di-bere/ Last updated: 2026-08-26T03:41:05.000Z [Ascolta in Italiano / Listen in Italian ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/it/s1e1-trailer-non-bere-acqua/) Introducing the Modo di Bere podcast, Rose Thomas Bannister's interview show about local drinks and local sayings. Rose Thomas shares sayings from Italy, Spain and Philadelphia that seem to discuss whether it's healthier to drink water or wine. **Auto-generated transcript.** (Kindly excuse immaterial errors). View Transcript (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) - Water ruins the bridge. Water is for frogs. Water makes rust. Water rots the boat poles. Is moto di bere an anti -hydration podcast? Not exactly. The Italians who taught me the four phrases you just heard come from Sperlonga, Friuli, Orvieto, and Venice. Some of the phrases are in Italian and others are examples of the many local languages spoken all over Italy. My name is Rose Thomas Bannister. I'm an Italian wine ambassador and sommelier instructor. I live in New York City, and my favorite thing to do is learn things. If you listen to Modo di Bere, the podcast for local drinks and local sayings, you get to learn with me as I interview people from all over the world. My guests include winemakers, bartenders, tea drinkers, scientists, musicians who sing in dialect, and anyone who has something to teach us about drinks, language, and the stories about local culture that can be discovered in a wine glass or at the sharp end of a bit of slang. The words for a sang in Italian are "modo di dire", way of saying. "Modo di bere" is my Italian pun. It translates to way of drinking. If you'd like to listen to Modo di Bere in Italian, please check out the notes for this trailer because I've created an entire separate Italian podcast where I share interviews with all the same guests. You can also find Modo di Bere on Blogspot. episode. You can also find Mododibere on blogspot, TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube for even more unique and educational drinks and language content. Just outside Granada in southern Spain I met Rafa, who taught me a Spanish saying that also refers to water rotting wood. I'll play that saying now and I'll let Rafa explain the meaning behind these humorous proverbs. Si el agua pudre los maderos, cuanto más los cuerpos. So, we have to drink wine. This is better than water. And referring to wine, we say also, con buen vino se anda el camino. With good red wine, you can walk along the way, you know. However you speak, and whatever you like to drink. I think the true health advice contained in these humorous sayings is this. To enjoy life, to have a little fun, is vitally important. I'd never heard a second part to these "water is bad for you" sayings in Italy until I met Ricardo. Here is a recording of Ricardo and his friends teaching me his version of the proverb in the Venetian dialect. I like to translate this as "Water routes the boat poles, but wine makes songs." The Music for the podcast was composed by Aircilia Prosperi for the band OU. They are an adventurous band who sing in multiple languages. You can find their music at oumusic .bandcamp .com. Thanks for listening and don't worry, we're not really anti -hydration. I'll let Liz from Philadelphia have the final word. OK, here in Yeah, we have a local drink and it's water. s here Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: [www.oumusic.bandcamp.com](http://www.oumusic.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Buy their newest album: [folderolrecords.bandcamp.com](https://folderolrecords.bandcamp.com/?ref=mododibere.com) Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister Audio assistance by [Steve Silverstein](https://www.instagram.com/steveco.worldwide/?ref=mododibere.com) [ Running for the Wine ](https://www.mododibere.com/podcasts/en/s1e2-dr-rebecca-lawrence/)